WEBVTT - The Piketon Massacre Live: CrimeCon Q&A 0:00:02.440 --> 0:00:05.200 We know the end. We've got some idea what happened 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:08.080 in the middle. I want to know about the beginning. 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:11.960 When did the switch flip to where the only resolution 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:19.840 was to go and kill them off? This is the 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:26.000 Pike did Massacre returned to Pike County Season three, episode eleven. 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:32.000 I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie Studios with 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:37.640 Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. Recently, Stephanie Lydecker, forensic expert 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:39.959 Joseph Morgan, and I were invited to speak at an 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:44.000 event called crime Con in Las Vegas, Nevada. Crime Con 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:46.959 is a large expo event where true crime fans can 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:50.600 meet and discuss cases from their favorite crime shows and podcasts. 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:53.920 We were honored to attend and were able to record 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:56.000 a Q and A on their stage with fans from 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:59.480 across the country. George and Billy Wagner have pleaded not 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:03.560 guilty to charges of murdering the Rodent family. This discussion 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:05.720 was meant to serve as a conversation of things we've 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:09.520 covered in the podcast and heard from our sources. Because 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:12.840 the trials are still upcoming, much of it remains speculation 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:16.720 based on the criminal allegations against the accused and their actions. 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:19.760 It's important to keep in mind that all parties are 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:23.479 innocent until they are proven guilty or enter a guilty plea. 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:27.399 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to a live Q and a 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:31.200 episode of The Piked and Masker. Now, please welcome to 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:39.120 the stage Courtney Armstrong, Stephanie Lydecker, and Joseph Morgan. Yeah, 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:47.640 and thank you the voice of Courtney Armstrong. It's a 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:50.280 lot easier in my closet versus out with all of you. 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:53.480 But you're such a welcoming audience and we again are 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:58.639 just grateful you're here. And I yeah, we are grateful. Yeah, 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:02.840 thank you for even being here. We're true crime fans 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:06.920 in this particular case, I think has gotten into our 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:10.600 personal DNA in a way I can't quite describe. We 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:14.919 have a few questions that people have written in via 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:18.280 social media or in various ways, so we were going 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:20.600 to ask some of the most popular ones and then 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:24.160 we're excited to hear any additional ones. So a lot 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:29.000 of people asked before the arrests happened, what did you 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:31.200 think had happened that night? To the eight members of 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:33.840 the Road and Family who were murdered and is there 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:38.280 a difference now after the neighboring family the Wagners have 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:42.760 been arrested. So Stephanie for me personally, when we first 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.840 got involved with the case, we thought it was the 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:50.840 cartel or something nefarious unrelated to the Wagner family, or 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:53.840 that there was no such thing as a killer mother, 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:57.040 or that a family could do that to somebody who 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:00.920 they knew so well. And they say truth is stranger 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:04.120 than fiction, right, So, as it turns out, we might 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:07.440 have been wrong. Although this season, I will say and Joseph, 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:10.560 we all this is all we talk about. There are 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:14.040 new theories and there's new information that we have access 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:16.280 to now that kind of shakes a lot of those 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:20.480 theories up. We're frankly more confused than ever. Yeah, and 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:23.120 one thing that I think my opinion is evolving on 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:25.520 stuff said. I also thought it had to be a 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:30.480 professional who navigated for different locations in one night for 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:35.080 eight people. But as bits and pieces have come out 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:39.160 in trials and with different motions back and forth, I'm 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:44.120 definitely inch by inch more convinced that the Wagners they 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:48.320 indeed have the right people behind bars. Yeah, I gotta 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:50.760 tell you y'all listen for a second. And just I've 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:54.240 had several people ask me this question actually too since 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:58.840 i've been here, relative to Piketon, and I think it's 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:03.760 an interesting idea. If you're the Wagoners, what's that conversation 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:06.800 like in a car if you're on the way to 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:12.400 four separate locations. Yeah, they were allegedly having murder meetings, 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:15.240 like a family of four was enjoying dinner and talking 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:17.640 about murdering a family. The Yeah, and I got a 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:20.840 few guests a year ago, two years ago, I went 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:22.680 up to the crime scenes to take a look in 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:28.119 the home that the Wagoners had previously occupied, this beautiful, green, 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:31.000 lush area, and it's this, you know, this multi story 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:34.200 old farmhouse with pastors beyond it. And you know, I 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:36.159 sat there and I was outside the home, and I 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:39.279 was thinking, So, it's in this home where you've celebrated 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:41.720 Christmas and Thanksgiving and everything as a family, and maybe 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:45.040 you're sitting around at table and maybe talking about completely 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:49.800 and totally ending a familial line at that point in time. 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:52.080 Just let that sink in just for a second. And 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:55.440 this is a conversation that you're having across the dinner 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:58.920 table and then that that night you know that I 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:02.200 know you got and I've talked about it's it's you know, 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:05.679 for me as an investigator, it's it's the timing element. 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:08.560 How do you get this down so that you go 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:13.960 from point A to point D and you don't get caught? 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:16.840 How is it that you do this? And that has 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:19.560 as an investigator it left me scratching my head and 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:21.880 I'm with staff. The first time I heard it, I'm thinking, yeah, 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.560 this is some kind of organized crime head. They've come in, 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:28.920 they they've they've angered the wrong person, and I think 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:31.120 in this case, they it looks like they may have 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:34.520 angered the wrong family. And not to mention, that's four people. 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:37.800 We all follow true crime for a living, right. You 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:40.120 guys are here because you have this brain to be 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:43.440 able to solve things. Four people sticking to the same story. 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:48.040 So grown adults, four of them allegedly decided to get 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:51.440 into a car and go to one house, then go 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:53.919 to another house, get back in the car, then go 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:56.000 to another house, get back in the car. At what 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:59.840 point does one of them not say no or enough, 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:03.839 We've murdered too many to get through four locations in 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:08.120 one night, and to know that it's just potentially people 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:11.880 who many say are lovely and never would know it 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:13.440 in a million years, you know, we want to be 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:17.200 able to spot the boogeyman for ourselves. They don't fit 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:21.240 the bill. And in one of our trips, and we've 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.920 had the benefit of going several times over the years 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:28.240 as we've been just can't let this case go, obviously, 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:33.040 and we've driven several times from as Joseph said, from 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:35.760 A to B to C two D. Not that we 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:38.160 know the order, no one, no one knows what. No 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:43.520 one knows the order yet and just yeah, the consciousness 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:46.920 of Stephanie said, you start the car back up and 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:49.919 sit back down, you know, and then to take a 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:53.719 longer road because three of the houses are very close together. 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:59.159 But then when you go to Kenneth Road and it's 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:04.240 more than ten minutes. So the consciousness there's there's no 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:07.920 spur of the moment. You are simmering in what you've done, 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.360 not to mention waking up the next day. All four 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:12.600 of them lived together and then woke up the next day, 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:15.360 took showers and then pretended that they were desperate to 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:17.440 find out who did it, had the nerve to talk 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:21.160 to press and give interviews and say we missed these victims. 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:24.280 And honestly, that's a hard thing to do. Also for 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:29.120 people just zipping it and not flubbing their alibi, you know, 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:31.480 to that point, this is one of the things that 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:34.360 has chilled me to my bone. And that is when 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:37.040 they got up the next morning, this family had essentially 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:41.960 been eradicated. However, someone knew that there were two babies 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:50.440 that were wallowing, yes, in blood, the mother's blood in 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:55.240 that environment, left behind a five day old. Yeah, I mean, 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:57.840 can you begin to fathom that. I've seen you know, 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:00.480 I've seen my sheriff cases in Atlanta and yours, you know, 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:03.720 working for the NME in the corner, but I'd never 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:05.960 you know, when they told me this, you think you've 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:08.560 seen a thing or two. But as as the team 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:10.840 began to explain it to me, I began to try 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:13.440 to put the pieces together forensically, and of course the 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:15.400 dad and me, the grandpa and me. You know, I 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:17.520 began to think about this and I'm thinking, who, who, 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:21.400 who could do this? Who could be this callism? And Joseph, 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:24.720 He's done a beautiful job. But you know, maybe as 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:27.160 a death investigator you can talk a little bit about 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:31.440 the types of shots or the amount of shots. Yeah, yeah, 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:34.920 we do have some solid information relative to the number 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:37.880 of gunshot wounds that were involved. And there is a 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:42.559 This is not an execution style classically, as Stephanie had 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:45.080 pointed out, where you think about somebody kneeling before you 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:46.840 and you shoot them in the back of the head. 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:51.240 A new mother is essentially shot in the face five times. 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:54.240 One of the rounds actually entered her eye, and so 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:59.840 that gives you relative to orientation relative to the victim 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.120 to the muzzle of the weapon. They are literally standing 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:05.480 down the long axis of the barrel. If she was 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:07.400 still alive at the point in time. And again we 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:10.400 have not been able to go through the autopsy report 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:13.120 in details, so we don't know where, like for what 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:16.120 wound tracks still have in dwelling hemorrhage, which is one 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:18.040 of the things that we look at to see if 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:22.000 an individual has sustained a postmortem or an anti mortem 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:24.760 insult at that point in time. But she was looking 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:27.679 down the barrel of this She's in bed at this 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:31.600 moment time and the picture that this creates is that 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.640 an individual has gotten onto the bed or adjacent to 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:37.720 the bed and fired directly into her face that there 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.559 may have been an awareness they may have shown up 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:44.360 also with flashlights to kind of blind or disorient at 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:47.680 that point in time. You can imagine with your in 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:53.000 total darkness for a moment, kind of imagine in your 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:56.080 mind that you're in total deep sleep and suddenly a 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:59.840 flashlight is in your face. There might be screaming involved, 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:04.079 Your newborn baby is cradled in your arms immediately adjacent 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:06.520 to you, and maybe for a second you see a 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:09.080 flash and then your life ends. But it doesn't end 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:12.480 simply there, because they continue to fire over and over 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:19.079 and over again. We've heard terms like homemade silencers being created, 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:24.720 and also an interesting little caveat is that we've also 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:27.080 heard the term brass catcher. And for those of you 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:30.480 that are not familiar with firearms, if you're using a 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:35.199 semi automatic firearm, it's going to eject brass, spent brass. 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:38.439 The ideas to catch the brass so that not only 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:42.440 are you trying to muffle the sound, because there's not 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:45.439 really any such thing as a silencer, it's a suppressor. 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:48.720 You're trying to muffle the sound, and then you're trying 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:51.880 to catch all of the brass so that you cannot 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:55.360 leave anything that can be traced back forensically at that 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.920 point in time. Because we can look at spent casings 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:01.640 along the same line as we do ballistic examinations on 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:04.439 spent rounds. It's not quite as accurate. You've got extraction 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:07.480 marks soft brass, but you can tie them back in 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.880 a general sort of matter to a particular manufacturer, so's 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:15.360 they came prepared. That's what we're talking about. I have 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:20.360 a question right here. So watching Jake Wagner plead guilty 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:23.760 in court, did you guys see any kind of nonverbal 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:26.319 signs that maybe he was ashamed, had regret, because I 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:30.920 think I did, especially when they called a name. Okay, 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:33.040 so you guys do think maybe he had to come 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:39.840 to Jesus moment in prison. I couldn't. I literally couldn't 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:42.320 believe it. And it's funny you're saying maybe he was 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:46.400 showing remorse. Listen, it's it's a facial thing and you 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:48.520 can read it different ways. I saw it as a 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:53.360 smirk whatever that means. I don't know. Mild. Yeah, I 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:57.840 found it revolting his reaction, I can tell you that. Yeah, 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:00.440 And it's just about the heat up because les are 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:03.840 starting and we now have new information from Angela and 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:07.080 even Angela Wagner, we now it's very rare. Well, we 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:09.400 all know, we all worked on the Nancy Gray series together. 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.160 That's how we met Joseph, so we all were raised 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:16.040 in the house of true crime, you know, by the best. 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:20.680 It is very rare to see that many women involved 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:23.880 in a case this violence. It's very rare to see 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:28.719 women allowing that level of violence against other women, let 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:31.800 alone other mothers, let alone other mothers holding their children. 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:35.319 It is a rare thing. And now to know that 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:39.800 Angela Wagner was buying silencer equipments at Walmart looking like 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:44.040 just one of us. She looks so normal. She's buying 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:50.000 silencers for her kids to go murder people. It's unfathomable. Really, yeah, 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:53.160 it is. And there's there was recently a hearing, Daubert 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:55.439 hearing as it's referred to, and it's kind of the 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:58.240 measure of the evidence and the veracity of the evidence 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:01.439 or the validity of the evidence being put forward, and 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:04.080 it had to do with shoe print evidence. And so 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:09.320 what has come out is apparently that mom had gone 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:12.400 to Walmart and bought a very specific type of shoe 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:18.040 and again premeditation going to thinking about this, what can 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:21.040 we buy that's new that is not going to be 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:24.400 traced back specifically to us because there's no wear patterns. 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:26.720 The shoes are new at this point in time. It's 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:29.600 not like they're worn down and you can tell if 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:31.800 somebody can pronate or supernate and all those things we 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:34.600 look at and forensic footwear. These are brand new and 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:37.120 maybe they had enough thought about this to go and 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:40.120 purchase these shoes. And of course we've got trials coming up, 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:42.439 and we'll see how this plays out as it goes forward. 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:47.360 We're going to take a break. We'll be back in 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:58.640 a moment bringing it back to those shoes that Angela bought. 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:01.040 So just to set the stage and remind people who 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:05.160 have listened or informed people who haven't. The accused family, 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:09.760 the Wagoners is mother Angela late forties, I believe she's 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:15.080 fifty now, father Billy, and their two sons in their twenties. 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:18.600 So just to set the stage, and you know, Stephanie 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:23.120 started talking about how Angela plan and she physically bought 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:27.000 stuff for this murder. They have her own surveillance at 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:32.400 Walmart buying it, and you know a lot of people 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:36.960 have asked about all of the mothers involved in this 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:39.960 case and what our thoughts are, Stephanie, if you want 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:42.440 to speak to mothers and how they play into this. 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:47.760 What kind of a screwy mother would allow allegedly her 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:51.560 sons to murder a plan she puts in place then 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:53.640 tells them all to zip it so they can all 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:57.360 go about their lives. We never heard of a killer family. Again, 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:02.040 we're all true crime people. Very rare for a family 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:05.240 to kill together. Adults on top of it, who were 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:08.360 functional members of the plan, like everybody liked them. We 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:10.920 heard very nice things about them. And to know that 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:13.520 Angela Wagner, by her own admission at this point, was 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:16.360 actually the one that planned the whole thing. So if 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:20.600 she wants custody of her granddaughter, her big plan is 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:25.000 to make her own sons murder. I won't get Joseph 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:28.480 started on this, but Joseph's my most We think he's 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:35.960 the most interesting person alive. For the record, yep. The 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:41.160 notion that the authorities, the sheriff specifically who's currently behind 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:46.320 bars for taking bribes and unrelated cases, they moved all 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:48.640 of the crime scenes so we all know if there 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:51.400 was a crime happening right this second here, God forbid, 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:54.120 the doors would shut, the police would be here, nothing 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:57.720 would be touched, right, we would preserve this sacred crime scene. 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:02.080 How about the fact that four locations they literally put 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:05.560 the homes on a truck and moved it across town, 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:09.720 pretty much guaranteeing that nothing is sacred from a forensic standpoint, 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:14.600 which if they had gone to trial, had Jake not confessed, 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:17.600 they might have gotten away with it simply because a 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:20.840 good lawyer would have said they tampered with evidence. That's 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:23.840 when Joseph got involved. When again Joseph through Nancy, we 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:28.520 were like Joseph, this makes no sense and just another 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:33.000 thing on the evidentiary handling of these time scenes. Not 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:37.520 only were they moved, disrupting everything everything they were then 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:42.120 and this is fact, they then were unguarded. They were 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:46.560 completely unguarded. We've spoken to attorneys and journalists who went there, 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:48.800 and one of the attorneys he said, you know, I'm 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:51.200 practicing fifty years. Do the math on how old I am. 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:54.160 He said, I could hop that fence and do what 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:55.840 you will with the evidence. So I think all of 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:59.040 us are on particularly so curious how that will play 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:03.960 out in the there's actually floating around out there. A 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:09.040 photo that's kind of iconic to me, where these trailers, 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:11.120 these mobile homes. And when I say mobile home, I'm 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:13.280 not talking about like a trailer like an RV. I'm 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:16.720 talking about a mobile home. I was at this site. 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:18.240 I could see where the thing that it was hooked 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:21.080 up to the septic and you know, the water pipe. 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:24.320 The stubs are still in the ground, and I'll get 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:27.000 back to that in just a second. But the place 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:30.320 where these things were deposited, it looks like an old 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:33.840 hangar almost. It's vast area and there's kind of this 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:37.199 iconic photo now where these things are in there and 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:40.800 there's a main entrance gate and the gate is cracked 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:44.720 open and someone is on the outside. Now, this violates 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:49.239 from a forensic standpoint, this violates every principle that you 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:52.040 guys hear about us talk about here where it comes 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:55.640 to security, crime scene security, and holding onto the evidence, 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:58.679 because you have to be able to preserve the chain. Well, 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:01.120 I don't know about you guys, but if I've got 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:04.480 four crime scenes which are being housed in a warehouse, 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:06.479 I think it's pretty important to be able to at 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:11.040 least at a rudimentary level, to demonstrate that we give 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:12.879 a damn about it and we're gonna lock the gate, 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:16.199 you know what I'm saying. And so that that's just 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:19.240 one of the issues. And when do you remember what 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:21.000 we talked about just a few moments ago where we're 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:24.840 talking about gunfire. Right, So let's say, for instance, and 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:27.080 we've got I can't do the math off the top 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:31.159 of my head, mass hard, but anyway, we've got the 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:35.359 math that gives us a huge number of rounds have 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:39.119 been popped off in this in this house thirty two. 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:41.280 And what do we talk about all the time? You 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:44.000 hear us talk about pontificate about things and crime scenes. 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:47.920 One of the things we talked about is bullet trajectories. Right, Okay, Well, 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:50.399 if you're in a mobile home, or if a mobile 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:54.680 home is being transported, you've got multiple gunshots have been 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:58.400 fired in this in this environment that's now rolling down 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:00.959 the road, bumping up and down the road, and not 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:04.920 just that it's swaying back and forth. Can you tell me? 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:08.480 And if I was a defense attorney, I would ask 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:11.320 this question. It needs to be asking answer. Can you 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:17.280 guarantee that these walls are still plumb. Can you give 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:19.920 us an idea that when because you're putting them there 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:23.560 not just to secure them, you're putting them there to 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:28.240 examine them in real time, not just to preserve the evidence. 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:31.400 But remember what we do as forensic scientists, we're kind 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:35.520 of historians in the sense we want to preserve that 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:38.959 environment so that it can be documented and presented in court. Well, 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:42.760 is this a real and true and accurate representation of 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:45.840 what was actually there before they removed it off of 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:49.240 the foundations and travel down these roads? And I got 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:51.159 to tell you, and I know they can testify to it. 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:53.880 When I say roads, This road is like as why 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:55.520 we had to pull over on the side of the 0:19:55.600 --> 0:20:00.119 road to get let other parts pass this wide? And 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:02.439 you're talking about these narrow little lanes that they're dragging 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:05.320 these things down. Look, don't believe me. On the internet 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:07.600 there's the pictures of the mobile homes going down the 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:09.640 road and being told but that's when they got out 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:13.080 to the main road. These twist and turns that they're 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:15.800 having to take. Not to mention, how do you secure 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:18.480 anything that was nailed to the wall or this hung 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:20.800 on the wall that's us going to fall off? How 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:22.800 do you know that nothing was broken in there? And 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:25.439 can you prove it? Can you demonstrate it? And at 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:27.239 the end of the day, that's what the prosecutors are 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:28.639 going to have to do. I think this is a 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:33.760 big uphill climb for them from an evidentiary standpoint. Let's 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:44.000 stop here for another break. We'd love to hear any questions. 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:46.200 We have a couple of more, but you guys are here. 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:50.000 It was all about his little girl, So mamma could 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:53.960 grandma could finally have her baby girl? Why on earth 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:58.119 did he throw everybody else under the bris? Sob Horton 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:02.119 and I have worked together for decades. We cried because 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:05.600 it was such a stain on humanity that hearing him 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:09.320 say I'm guilty. He also apparently has found God in 0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:15.040 prison and has been reformed, and his brother has requested 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:19.560 solitary confinement. Religion plays an interesting role also. We also 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:22.959 have heard that they're getting threats behind bars, and that 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:25.520 that might be part of the reason why he's confessing, 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:31.280 and not to mention. Apparently nobody knew when Jake confessed. 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:34.520 We're told that his mother, his father, and his other 0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:37.680 brother had no idea he was going to plead, which 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:41.080 really screws them and leaves them with a bag. So 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:43.840 he although it was taking the death sentence part off 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:46.560 the table, he was also sealing their fate because had 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:49.639 they all gone to trial and kept quiet all of this, 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:52.320 forensics probably would have been up for conversation and they 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:57.720 might have gotten off. And interestingly, and this is something 0:21:57.760 --> 0:22:01.080 that's new since so a Stephanie said it was maybe 0:22:01.119 --> 0:22:04.440 he found religion. Everyone says God is in a lot 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:06.320 of prisons because a lot of people seem to find 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:09.320 religion there. But you know, and maybe he wanted to 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:13.520 save the lives and that's why he testified. But it's 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:17.320 become clear in different court motions and different stuff. The 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:20.800 prosecutor has gone on record that if Jake does not 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:25.280 testify to the prosecution's liking and to the extent of 0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:28.640 what he has agreed to, guess what, the death penalty 0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:32.199 is right back on the table for everybody. So we 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:34.520 had never heard of that before. Imagine, you take a 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:39.840 plea agreement, you get your family off of death sentences. However, 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:42.800 when you go to trial to testify against them in 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:44.760 front of them, which will be the first time they 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:46.840 all see each other eye to eye, will be when 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:49.840 Jake is testifying against them. Bring it up. Hold on, 0:22:50.000 --> 0:22:52.639 someone is going to yes, you got it, very kindly, 0:22:52.680 --> 0:22:55.560 come and while that's coming, just thank you for listening. 0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:58.280 I think we all are just very like minded and 0:22:58.320 --> 0:23:02.680 just being justice junkies. We really genuinely it's not grizzly 0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:05.960 stuff that we enjoy. It's trying to figure out the 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:08.840 why and the who and the truth. Yeah, I have 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:12.520 a question. Um, Hannah Rodin is the one that had 0:23:12.520 --> 0:23:15.280 the baby, correct, and she's the one that had the 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:19.200 child with Jake. Great, okay, why thank god they did, 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:23.000 But why do you think that they left the baby alive? Like, 0:23:23.119 --> 0:23:26.600 wasn't that a point of contention in that family? Yes? 0:23:26.880 --> 0:23:30.120 It was, and this, Yeah, it's a great question. It's 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:36.679 a great question. So part of let me phrase this simply. 0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:41.000