1 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: We know the end. We've got some idea what happened 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: in the middle. I want to know about the beginning. 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: When did the switch flip to where the only resolution 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: was to go and kill them off? This is the 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: Pike did Massacre returned to Pike County Season three, episode eleven. 6 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie Studios with 7 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. Recently, Stephanie Lydecker, forensic expert 8 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:39,959 Speaker 1: Joseph Morgan, and I were invited to speak at an 9 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: event called crime Con in Las Vegas, Nevada. Crime Con 10 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:46,959 Speaker 1: is a large expo event where true crime fans can 11 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: meet and discuss cases from their favorite crime shows and podcasts. 12 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: We were honored to attend and were able to record 13 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: a Q and A on their stage with fans from 14 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: across the country. George and Billy Wagner have pleaded not 15 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: guilty to charges of murdering the Rodent family. This discussion 16 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: was meant to serve as a conversation of things we've 17 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: covered in the podcast and heard from our sources. Because 18 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: the trials are still upcoming, much of it remains speculation 19 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: based on the criminal allegations against the accused and their actions. 20 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: It's important to keep in mind that all parties are 21 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,479 Speaker 1: innocent until they are proven guilty or enter a guilty plea. 22 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to a live Q and a 23 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: episode of The Piked and Masker. Now, please welcome to 24 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: the stage Courtney Armstrong, Stephanie Lydecker, and Joseph Morgan. Yeah, 25 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: and thank you the voice of Courtney Armstrong. It's a 26 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: lot easier in my closet versus out with all of you. 27 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: But you're such a welcoming audience and we again are 28 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:58,639 Speaker 1: just grateful you're here. And I yeah, we are grateful. Yeah, 29 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: thank you for even being here. We're true crime fans 30 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: in this particular case, I think has gotten into our 31 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: personal DNA in a way I can't quite describe. We 32 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 1: have a few questions that people have written in via 33 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: social media or in various ways, so we were going 34 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: to ask some of the most popular ones and then 35 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: we're excited to hear any additional ones. So a lot 36 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: of people asked before the arrests happened, what did you 37 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: think had happened that night? To the eight members of 38 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: the Road and Family who were murdered and is there 39 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: a difference now after the neighboring family the Wagners have 40 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: been arrested. So Stephanie for me personally, when we first 41 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: got involved with the case, we thought it was the 42 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: cartel or something nefarious unrelated to the Wagner family, or 43 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: that there was no such thing as a killer mother, 44 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: or that a family could do that to somebody who 45 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 1: they knew so well. And they say truth is stranger 46 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: than fiction, right, So, as it turns out, we might 47 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: have been wrong. Although this season, I will say and Joseph, 48 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: we all this is all we talk about. There are 49 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: new theories and there's new information that we have access 50 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: to now that kind of shakes a lot of those 51 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: theories up. We're frankly more confused than ever. Yeah, and 52 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: one thing that I think my opinion is evolving on 53 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: stuff said. I also thought it had to be a 54 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: professional who navigated for different locations in one night for 55 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: eight people. But as bits and pieces have come out 56 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: in trials and with different motions back and forth, I'm 57 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: definitely inch by inch more convinced that the Wagners they 58 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: indeed have the right people behind bars. Yeah, I gotta 59 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: tell you y'all listen for a second. And just I've 60 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: had several people ask me this question actually too since 61 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: i've been here, relative to Piketon, and I think it's 62 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: an interesting idea. If you're the Wagoners, what's that conversation 63 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: like in a car if you're on the way to 64 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: four separate locations. Yeah, they were allegedly having murder meetings, 65 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: like a family of four was enjoying dinner and talking 66 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: about murdering a family. The Yeah, and I got a 67 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 1: few guests a year ago, two years ago, I went 68 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: up to the crime scenes to take a look in 69 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:28,119 Speaker 1: the home that the Wagoners had previously occupied, this beautiful, green, 70 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: lush area, and it's this, you know, this multi story 71 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: old farmhouse with pastors beyond it. And you know, I 72 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 1: sat there and I was outside the home, and I 73 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 1: was thinking, So, it's in this home where you've celebrated 74 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: Christmas and Thanksgiving and everything as a family, and maybe 75 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 1: you're sitting around at table and maybe talking about completely 76 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: and totally ending a familial line at that point in time. 77 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: Just let that sink in just for a second. And 78 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: this is a conversation that you're having across the dinner 79 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: table and then that that night you know that I 80 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: know you got and I've talked about it's it's you know, 81 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,679 Speaker 1: for me as an investigator, it's it's the timing element. 82 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: How do you get this down so that you go 83 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: from point A to point D and you don't get caught? 84 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: How is it that you do this? And that has 85 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: as an investigator it left me scratching my head and 86 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: I'm with staff. The first time I heard it, I'm thinking, yeah, 87 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: this is some kind of organized crime head. They've come in, 88 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: they they've they've angered the wrong person, and I think 89 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: in this case, they it looks like they may have 90 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: angered the wrong family. And not to mention, that's four people. 91 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: We all follow true crime for a living, right. You 92 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: guys are here because you have this brain to be 93 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: able to solve things. Four people sticking to the same story. 94 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 1: So grown adults, four of them allegedly decided to get 95 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: into a car and go to one house, then go 96 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,919 Speaker 1: to another house, get back in the car, then go 97 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: to another house, get back in the car. At what 98 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: point does one of them not say no or enough, 99 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 1: We've murdered too many to get through four locations in 100 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: one night, and to know that it's just potentially people 101 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: who many say are lovely and never would know it 102 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: in a million years, you know, we want to be 103 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: able to spot the boogeyman for ourselves. They don't fit 104 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: the bill. And in one of our trips, and we've 105 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: had the benefit of going several times over the years 106 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: as we've been just can't let this case go, obviously, 107 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: and we've driven several times from as Joseph said, from 108 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: A to B to C two D. Not that we 109 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: know the order, no one, no one knows what. No 110 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: one knows the order yet and just yeah, the consciousness 111 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: of Stephanie said, you start the car back up and 112 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,919 Speaker 1: sit back down, you know, and then to take a 113 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 1: longer road because three of the houses are very close together. 114 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 1: But then when you go to Kenneth Road and it's 115 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: more than ten minutes. So the consciousness there's there's no 116 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: spur of the moment. You are simmering in what you've done, 117 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: not to mention waking up the next day. All four 118 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: of them lived together and then woke up the next day, 119 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: took showers and then pretended that they were desperate to 120 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: find out who did it, had the nerve to talk 121 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: to press and give interviews and say we missed these victims. 122 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: And honestly, that's a hard thing to do. Also for 123 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: people just zipping it and not flubbing their alibi, you know, 124 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: to that point, this is one of the things that 125 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: has chilled me to my bone. And that is when 126 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: they got up the next morning, this family had essentially 127 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: been eradicated. However, someone knew that there were two babies 128 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: that were wallowing, yes, in blood, the mother's blood in 129 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: that environment, left behind a five day old. Yeah, I mean, 130 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: can you begin to fathom that. I've seen you know, 131 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: I've seen my sheriff cases in Atlanta and yours, you know, 132 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: working for the NME in the corner, but I'd never 133 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: you know, when they told me this, you think you've 134 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: seen a thing or two. But as as the team 135 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: began to explain it to me, I began to try 136 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: to put the pieces together forensically, and of course the 137 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: dad and me, the grandpa and me. You know, I 138 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: began to think about this and I'm thinking, who, who, 139 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: who could do this? Who could be this callism? And Joseph, 140 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: He's done a beautiful job. But you know, maybe as 141 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: a death investigator you can talk a little bit about 142 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: the types of shots or the amount of shots. Yeah, yeah, 143 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: we do have some solid information relative to the number 144 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: of gunshot wounds that were involved. And there is a 145 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 1: This is not an execution style classically, as Stephanie had 146 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: pointed out, where you think about somebody kneeling before you 147 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 1: and you shoot them in the back of the head. 148 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: A new mother is essentially shot in the face five times. 149 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: One of the rounds actually entered her eye, and so 150 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: that gives you relative to orientation relative to the victim 151 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: to the muzzle of the weapon. They are literally standing 152 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: down the long axis of the barrel. If she was 153 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: still alive at the point in time. And again we 154 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: have not been able to go through the autopsy report 155 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: in details, so we don't know where, like for what 156 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: wound tracks still have in dwelling hemorrhage, which is one 157 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: of the things that we look at to see if 158 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: an individual has sustained a postmortem or an anti mortem 159 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: insult at that point in time. But she was looking 160 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 1: down the barrel of this She's in bed at this 161 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: moment time and the picture that this creates is that 162 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: an individual has gotten onto the bed or adjacent to 163 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: the bed and fired directly into her face that there 164 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 1: may have been an awareness they may have shown up 165 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: also with flashlights to kind of blind or disorient at 166 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: that point in time. You can imagine with your in 167 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: total darkness for a moment, kind of imagine in your 168 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: mind that you're in total deep sleep and suddenly a 169 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: flashlight is in your face. There might be screaming involved, 170 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,079 Speaker 1: Your newborn baby is cradled in your arms immediately adjacent 171 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: to you, and maybe for a second you see a 172 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: flash and then your life ends. But it doesn't end 173 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: simply there, because they continue to fire over and over 174 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:19,079 Speaker 1: and over again. We've heard terms like homemade silencers being created, 175 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: and also an interesting little caveat is that we've also 176 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: heard the term brass catcher. And for those of you 177 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: that are not familiar with firearms, if you're using a 178 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:35,199 Speaker 1: semi automatic firearm, it's going to eject brass, spent brass. 179 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 1: The ideas to catch the brass so that not only 180 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: are you trying to muffle the sound, because there's not 181 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,439 Speaker 1: really any such thing as a silencer, it's a suppressor. 182 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: You're trying to muffle the sound, and then you're trying 183 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: to catch all of the brass so that you cannot 184 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: leave anything that can be traced back forensically at that 185 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: point in time. Because we can look at spent casings 186 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: along the same line as we do ballistic examinations on 187 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: spent rounds. It's not quite as accurate. You've got extraction 188 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: marks soft brass, but you can tie them back in 189 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: a general sort of matter to a particular manufacturer, so's 190 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: they came prepared. That's what we're talking about. I have 191 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: a question right here. So watching Jake Wagner plead guilty 192 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: in court, did you guys see any kind of nonverbal 193 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,319 Speaker 1: signs that maybe he was ashamed, had regret, because I 194 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: think I did, especially when they called a name. Okay, 195 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: so you guys do think maybe he had to come 196 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: to Jesus moment in prison. I couldn't. I literally couldn't 197 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 1: believe it. And it's funny you're saying maybe he was 198 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: showing remorse. Listen, it's it's a facial thing and you 199 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: can read it different ways. I saw it as a 200 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: smirk whatever that means. I don't know. Mild. Yeah, I 201 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: found it revolting his reaction, I can tell you that. Yeah, 202 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: And it's just about the heat up because les are 203 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 1: starting and we now have new information from Angela and 204 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: even Angela Wagner, we now it's very rare. Well, we 205 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: all know, we all worked on the Nancy Gray series together. 206 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: That's how we met Joseph, so we all were raised 207 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: in the house of true crime, you know, by the best. 208 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: It is very rare to see that many women involved 209 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: in a case this violence. It's very rare to see 210 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:28,719 Speaker 1: women allowing that level of violence against other women, let 211 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: alone other mothers, let alone other mothers holding their children. 212 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:35,319 Speaker 1: It is a rare thing. And now to know that 213 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: Angela Wagner was buying silencer equipments at Walmart looking like 214 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: just one of us. She looks so normal. She's buying 215 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: silencers for her kids to go murder people. It's unfathomable. Really, yeah, 216 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: it is. And there's there was recently a hearing, Daubert 217 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,439 Speaker 1: hearing as it's referred to, and it's kind of the 218 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: measure of the evidence and the veracity of the evidence 219 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,439 Speaker 1: or the validity of the evidence being put forward, and 220 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: it had to do with shoe print evidence. And so 221 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: what has come out is apparently that mom had gone 222 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: to Walmart and bought a very specific type of shoe 223 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: and again premeditation going to thinking about this, what can 224 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: we buy that's new that is not going to be 225 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: traced back specifically to us because there's no wear patterns. 226 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: The shoes are new at this point in time. It's 227 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: not like they're worn down and you can tell if 228 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: somebody can pronate or supernate and all those things we 229 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: look at and forensic footwear. These are brand new and 230 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: maybe they had enough thought about this to go and 231 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: purchase these shoes. And of course we've got trials coming up, 232 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 1: and we'll see how this plays out as it goes forward. 233 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: We're going to take a break. We'll be back in 234 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: a moment bringing it back to those shoes that Angela bought. 235 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: So just to set the stage and remind people who 236 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: have listened or informed people who haven't. The accused family, 237 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: the Wagoners is mother Angela late forties, I believe she's 238 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: fifty now, father Billy, and their two sons in their twenties. 239 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: So just to set the stage, and you know, Stephanie 240 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: started talking about how Angela plan and she physically bought 241 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: stuff for this murder. They have her own surveillance at 242 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: Walmart buying it, and you know a lot of people 243 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: have asked about all of the mothers involved in this 244 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: case and what our thoughts are, Stephanie, if you want 245 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: to speak to mothers and how they play into this. 246 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: What kind of a screwy mother would allow allegedly her 247 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: sons to murder a plan she puts in place then 248 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: tells them all to zip it so they can all 249 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: go about their lives. We never heard of a killer family. Again, 250 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: we're all true crime people. Very rare for a family 251 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: to kill together. Adults on top of it, who were 252 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: functional members of the plan, like everybody liked them. We 253 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: heard very nice things about them. And to know that 254 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: Angela Wagner, by her own admission at this point, was 255 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: actually the one that planned the whole thing. So if 256 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: she wants custody of her granddaughter, her big plan is 257 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: to make her own sons murder. I won't get Joseph 258 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: started on this, but Joseph's my most We think he's 259 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: the most interesting person alive. For the record, yep. The 260 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: notion that the authorities, the sheriff specifically who's currently behind 261 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: bars for taking bribes and unrelated cases, they moved all 262 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: of the crime scenes so we all know if there 263 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: was a crime happening right this second here, God forbid, 264 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: the doors would shut, the police would be here, nothing 265 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: would be touched, right, we would preserve this sacred crime scene. 266 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: How about the fact that four locations they literally put 267 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: the homes on a truck and moved it across town, 268 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: pretty much guaranteeing that nothing is sacred from a forensic standpoint, 269 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: which if they had gone to trial, had Jake not confessed, 270 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: they might have gotten away with it simply because a 271 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: good lawyer would have said they tampered with evidence. That's 272 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: when Joseph got involved. When again Joseph through Nancy, we 273 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: were like Joseph, this makes no sense and just another 274 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: thing on the evidentiary handling of these time scenes. Not 275 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: only were they moved, disrupting everything everything they were then 276 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: and this is fact, they then were unguarded. They were 277 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: completely unguarded. We've spoken to attorneys and journalists who went there, 278 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: and one of the attorneys he said, you know, I'm 279 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: practicing fifty years. Do the math on how old I am. 280 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: He said, I could hop that fence and do what 281 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: you will with the evidence. So I think all of 282 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: us are on particularly so curious how that will play 283 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: out in the there's actually floating around out there. A 284 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: photo that's kind of iconic to me, where these trailers, 285 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:11,120 Speaker 1: these mobile homes. And when I say mobile home, I'm 286 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: not talking about like a trailer like an RV. I'm 287 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 1: talking about a mobile home. I was at this site. 288 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: I could see where the thing that it was hooked 289 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: up to the septic and you know, the water pipe. 290 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: The stubs are still in the ground, and I'll get 291 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: back to that in just a second. But the place 292 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: where these things were deposited, it looks like an old 293 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: hangar almost. It's vast area and there's kind of this 294 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 1: iconic photo now where these things are in there and 295 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: there's a main entrance gate and the gate is cracked 296 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: open and someone is on the outside. Now, this violates 297 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:49,239 Speaker 1: from a forensic standpoint, this violates every principle that you 298 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: guys hear about us talk about here where it comes 299 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: to security, crime scene security, and holding onto the evidence, 300 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 1: because you have to be able to preserve the chain. Well, 301 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 1: I don't know about you guys, but if I've got 302 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: four crime scenes which are being housed in a warehouse, 303 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:06,479 Speaker 1: I think it's pretty important to be able to at 304 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: least at a rudimentary level, to demonstrate that we give 305 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: a damn about it and we're gonna lock the gate, 306 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. And so that that's just 307 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: one of the issues. And when do you remember what 308 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: we talked about just a few moments ago where we're 309 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: talking about gunfire. Right, So let's say, for instance, and 310 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: we've got I can't do the math off the top 311 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 1: of my head, mass hard, but anyway, we've got the 312 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: math that gives us a huge number of rounds have 313 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 1: been popped off in this in this house thirty two. 314 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: And what do we talk about all the time? You 315 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: hear us talk about pontificate about things and crime scenes. 316 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 1: One of the things we talked about is bullet trajectories. Right, Okay, Well, 317 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: if you're in a mobile home, or if a mobile 318 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 1: home is being transported, you've got multiple gunshots have been 319 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 1: fired in this in this environment that's now rolling down 320 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,959 Speaker 1: the road, bumping up and down the road, and not 321 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: just that it's swaying back and forth. Can you tell me? 322 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: And if I was a defense attorney, I would ask 323 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: this question. It needs to be asking answer. Can you 324 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: guarantee that these walls are still plumb. Can you give 325 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 1: us an idea that when because you're putting them there 326 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: not just to secure them, you're putting them there to 327 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: examine them in real time, not just to preserve the evidence. 328 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 1: But remember what we do as forensic scientists, we're kind 329 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: of historians in the sense we want to preserve that 330 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,959 Speaker 1: environment so that it can be documented and presented in court. Well, 331 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: is this a real and true and accurate representation of 332 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: what was actually there before they removed it off of 333 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: the foundations and travel down these roads? And I got 334 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 1: to tell you, and I know they can testify to it. 335 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: When I say roads, This road is like as why 336 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: we had to pull over on the side of the 337 00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: road to get let other parts pass this wide? And 338 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 1: you're talking about these narrow little lanes that they're dragging 339 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: these things down. Look, don't believe me. On the internet 340 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: there's the pictures of the mobile homes going down the 341 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 1: road and being told but that's when they got out 342 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: to the main road. These twist and turns that they're 343 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: having to take. Not to mention, how do you secure 344 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: anything that was nailed to the wall or this hung 345 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: on the wall that's us going to fall off? How 346 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: do you know that nothing was broken in there? And 347 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 1: can you prove it? Can you demonstrate it? And at 348 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,239 Speaker 1: the end of the day, that's what the prosecutors are 349 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 1: going to have to do. I think this is a 350 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: big uphill climb for them from an evidentiary standpoint. Let's 351 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: stop here for another break. We'd love to hear any questions. 352 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 1: We have a couple of more, but you guys are here. 353 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: It was all about his little girl, So mamma could 354 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: grandma could finally have her baby girl? Why on earth 355 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: did he throw everybody else under the bris? Sob Horton 356 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 1: and I have worked together for decades. We cried because 357 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: it was such a stain on humanity that hearing him 358 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: say I'm guilty. He also apparently has found God in 359 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: prison and has been reformed, and his brother has requested 360 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: solitary confinement. Religion plays an interesting role also. We also 361 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,959 Speaker 1: have heard that they're getting threats behind bars, and that 362 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: that might be part of the reason why he's confessing, 363 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: and not to mention. Apparently nobody knew when Jake confessed. 364 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: We're told that his mother, his father, and his other 365 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 1: brother had no idea he was going to plead, which 366 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: really screws them and leaves them with a bag. So 367 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: he although it was taking the death sentence part off 368 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: the table, he was also sealing their fate because had 369 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: they all gone to trial and kept quiet all of this, 370 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: forensics probably would have been up for conversation and they 371 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: might have gotten off. And interestingly, and this is something 372 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: that's new since so a Stephanie said it was maybe 373 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: he found religion. Everyone says God is in a lot 374 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: of prisons because a lot of people seem to find 375 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: religion there. But you know, and maybe he wanted to 376 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: save the lives and that's why he testified. But it's 377 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: become clear in different court motions and different stuff. The 378 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: prosecutor has gone on record that if Jake does not 379 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: testify to the prosecution's liking and to the extent of 380 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 1: what he has agreed to, guess what, the death penalty 381 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,199 Speaker 1: is right back on the table for everybody. So we 382 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: had never heard of that before. Imagine, you take a 383 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: plea agreement, you get your family off of death sentences. However, 384 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: when you go to trial to testify against them in 385 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: front of them, which will be the first time they 386 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: all see each other eye to eye, will be when 387 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: Jake is testifying against them. Bring it up. Hold on, 388 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: someone is going to yes, you got it, very kindly, 389 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: come and while that's coming, just thank you for listening. 390 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: I think we all are just very like minded and 391 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: just being justice junkies. We really genuinely it's not grizzly 392 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: stuff that we enjoy. It's trying to figure out the 393 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: why and the who and the truth. Yeah, I have 394 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: a question. Um, Hannah Rodin is the one that had 395 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: the baby, correct, and she's the one that had the 396 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: child with Jake. Great, okay, why thank god they did, 397 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: But why do you think that they left the baby alive? Like, 398 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: wasn't that a point of contention in that family? Yes? 399 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,120 Speaker 1: It was, and this, Yeah, it's a great question. It's 400 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 1: a great question. So part of let me phrase this simply. 401 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: It's such a layered question. Actually, you know, as Stephanie mentioned, 402 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: custody is a piece of this. Whether it was the 403 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: full thing will come out in the wash. Angela Jake's mother. 404 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: So this grandmother who ps had her grandchildren call her 405 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 1: mama and told told the mothers that you are not 406 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: their mother. You gave birth, but I am their mother. 407 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: Just a little hint into her mindset, But why did 408 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: they leave that baby alive? So they had the three 409 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 1: year old that they shared, and the Wagners filed for 410 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 1: custody of this five day old baby, saying that will 411 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: need her sister with her, So it was a to 412 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: keep them together. And then one other interesting thing on 413 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: that is, in the event that Hannah May died, which 414 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: of course this poor girl was murdered nineteen years old, 415 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: then because she would go to Jake. If Jake the 416 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: father died, customy would not go back to his mother 417 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: Hannah May, it would go to Angela, the grandmother. And 418 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 1: that was with forged documents, and it was a summer 419 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: of life. Hannah was a young girl, right, she meant 420 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: somebody else. She had a new boyfriend, Charlie Gilly. Interestingly, 421 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: I've always thought Frankie rode In the eldest victim's son 422 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: was sleeping beside his fiance and the three year old 423 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 1: is the one that got under the bed. The zombie story, 424 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: Hannah Gilly was shot five times in the face, which 425 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: was the second most of any of them. And I 426 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: never understood why the connection might be not proven. But 427 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 1: this is my theory personal is that Hannah Gilly's brother 428 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: was Charlie Gilly, who was the boy that Hannah May 429 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: was dating and not with Jake anymore. So there is 430 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: like a legit little love triangle happening here. But at 431 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: the time of the murders, Jake, Jake and Hannah were 432 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 1: still seeing each other. From what we now know, she 433 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,199 Speaker 1: was keeping things nice. She was doing a lot of 434 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: social media posting asking for help. She obviously felt bullied 435 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: by the Wagner family and by Jake. She probably just 436 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 1: wanted to get rid of him. But at the time 437 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: of the murders, Jake Willy did believe that five day 438 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: old was his so much so in the days right 439 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: after the murders he filed for custody and they did 440 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: paternity tests. So why would he kill her if he 441 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 1: thought maybe they could get back together because that baby 442 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 1: was his. What is your theory why they gave the 443 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: mother such a great plea deal of thirty years and 444 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: took away the aggravated murder Angela her. Yeah, it's being 445 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: speculated that Angela was not there that night, and that 446 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 1: she sent everybody out that night, and that she was 447 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: looking after the grandkids. Because we've been obsessed with that. 448 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,199 Speaker 1: If like the jake picked up his daughter outside of 449 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: their custody plan the day of the murders by coincidence. 450 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: Then that night they all go out and murder everybody 451 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: who was watching the kids. Anybody who was watching the 452 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 1: kids would know that they weren't with the kids the 453 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: night of the murder, and then therefore they should be 454 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: held accountable. My two cents, it's like been keeping us 455 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 1: up at night. They found a box, like a Xerox 456 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 1: paper box that said important stuff on it and in 457 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: it it's like all the evidence, like literally truth. Yeah, 458 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: why would you not given to the evidence. And that 459 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 1: they were clever enough to do surveillance. They had cameras, 460 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,959 Speaker 1: they were watching every they were in every Instagram account, 461 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 1: every coming and going. That's kind of when we got involved. 462 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: To the idea that the killer dogs that were trained attack, 463 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 1: so that was not uncommon, but the idea that they 464 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 1: did an attack kind of uncommon. Right, So they must 465 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: have known the assailants and there wasn't any noticeable forced entry. 466 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 1: Joseph can speak more to this. So somebody probably, we think, 467 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 1: either had a key or went through a window. They 468 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: knew the family very well, so the dogs knew them. 469 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: So that wouldn't be unusual. And if it was the cartel, 470 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 1: which was the initial idea, the cartel would have not 471 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: left anything breathing, including the dogs. They would have killed 472 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,399 Speaker 1: the dogs, killed the babies. They would have been an 473 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: assassination in and out, as opposed to what we now 474 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: know to be this enormous over kill. Have you thought 475 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 1: of this theory? There is no way in the world 476 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: Angela is gonna let these three men go take care 477 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 1: of her. Plot. Who's taking care of the grandkids, Frederica, Yes, 478 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: that is the question. That's what I believe too. I'm 479 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 1: with you on that. Can you share with us anything 480 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: new about the grand matriarch Frederica. Yes, she answered the 481 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: phone recently when we called. Yeah, she wouldn't speak with us. 482 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: Courtney and I debate this all the time. I'll tell 483 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: you my side of it. Oh, Frederica is the grandmother 484 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: on the Acque side. People loved her. They we've heard 485 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: very loving things about her, that she was sweet and kind, 486 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: and she denies that her family is involved. Still, however, 487 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: Courtney's heard quite the opposite. And I mean, listen, there's 488 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: two there's two sides to every coin, right, and yes, 489 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: Frederica did do altruistic things for the community, so that 490 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: is true. Also true is that she had quite a 491 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: bit of land, and so people would rent land and 492 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: they would say, okay, so by the time and they'd 493 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: make payments like on a car, the theory being okay, 494 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: when you pay us the X amount, that house is yours, 495 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: you own it. Well cut to this happened over and over. 496 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: She'd pull it out right at the end, Oh you 497 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: missed a payment or whatever, small thing, and she was 498 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: stealing back these people's homes. So that's a matter of 499 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: fact too. That's not speculation in the land of speculation, 500 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: though after quite guilty if you found out any kind 501 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: of scoop. As respond, she says that she still doesn't 502 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: believe it. And we have called her directly and her 503 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: family members directly. But one thing was because she was 504 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,239 Speaker 1: quite vocal Frederica in the press and she has I 505 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: believe this is a fact. Has not spoken to the 506 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: press since the Plea deals, but we've spoken a stuff 507 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: said to people who are very close with her. She 508 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: wears that black veil like right out of Central Casting too, 509 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: you know, she wears a black veil like the Godmother 510 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: goes to quarter. She looks so docile, like the sweetest 511 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: little grandmamma you could ever wish for. I Meanwhile, she's 512 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: allegedly raised up a generation of murderers. Yeah, ladies and gentlemen, 513 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: thank you very much for joining us. This has been 514 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: Crime Con twenty twenty two. Thank you, Thank you, guys, 515 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. Please email us if you have 516 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: a question real time. We really do try to listen 517 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: and respond within the episode, so if something pops up, 518 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: we were we would like to stay and engaged. If 519 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: you're enjoying The Pikes and Massacre, listen to our other 520 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: hit series, Crazy and Love. New episodes air every Tuesday 521 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. For more information and case photos, 522 00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studio. The Piked 523 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: and Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris 524 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: Grieves and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by 525 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: Jeff Tis, music by Jared Aston, audio mixing by Ken Novak. 526 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: The Piked and Massacre is a production of Katie Studios 527 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:24,719 Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio 528 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: app Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows, 529 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: we'd love for you to join us at crime CON's 530 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: next big event. More details to come on our website.