WEBVTT - White Men Learn the Hidden Cost of Suing for Discrimination

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.

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<v Speaker 2>You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and

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<v Speaker 2>Tim Stenoveek on Bloomberg Radio.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, let's bring in Jeff Green. He's Bloomberg News Management

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<v Speaker 1>and diversity reporter. He joins us from Detroit. Hey, Jeff,

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<v Speaker 1>good to have you on. It's always good to talk

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<v Speaker 1>to you. You know, Carol and I've been doing this

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<v Speaker 1>together for over five years. What we used to have

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<v Speaker 1>you on the program, the conversations were a lot different.

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<v Speaker 1>It was about, Okay, these are the companies, these are

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<v Speaker 1>these are the this is the makeup of the com

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<v Speaker 1>of the workforce of a certain company. These are the

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<v Speaker 1>goals that a company has put out there. You guys

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<v Speaker 1>were the ones that were crunching the numbers and seeing

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<v Speaker 1>if the companies were actually meeting those standards. Your beat

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<v Speaker 1>in recent years has really shifted with the way that

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<v Speaker 1>I think a lot of corporate America and politics have shifted.

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<v Speaker 1>Before we get to the individual stories that we want

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<v Speaker 1>to talk to you about, can you just talk a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit about even though your title is the same,

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<v Speaker 1>the way that you cover management and diversity in this

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<v Speaker 1>environment has changed completely.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, it's kind of interesting each of these situations.

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<v Speaker 2>You're kind of watching companies be pushed and pulled into

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<v Speaker 2>directions they're not necessarily comfortable with. It's kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>this process where they start out, you know, resisting talking

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<v Speaker 2>about the diversity of the workforces and not wanting to share,

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<v Speaker 2>and then they're sharing it all and they're headlong in

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<v Speaker 2>one direction, and then now where we are now, they're

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<v Speaker 2>sort of trying to find their way back towards something

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<v Speaker 2>undo some of what they've done. So they're in this

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<v Speaker 2>weird position that it's really hard as a corporate CEO

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<v Speaker 2>to figure out where you settle in where you stay

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<v Speaker 2>out of trouble, Like what's the least risk position to take,

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<v Speaker 2>and clearly they've been wrong repeatedly.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's really tricky, and I know that we've talked

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<v Speaker 3>to various leaders, Jeff, and they're saying, you know, we

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<v Speaker 3>got to think about our own employee base and the

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<v Speaker 3>culture of our company and what employees expect, especially a

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<v Speaker 3>younger employee. Having said that, let's get into this story

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<v Speaker 3>that you put out. We've been talking about it in

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<v Speaker 3>the newsroom. It involves Jeff on and what happened to

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<v Speaker 3>him and what he learned tell us a little bit

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<v Speaker 3>about his story.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, initially we thought we should just write

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<v Speaker 2>a story about our more white men suing and what

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<v Speaker 2>does that mean. And part of the problem is it's

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<v Speaker 2>really difficult to determine that we don't really have a

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<v Speaker 2>good sense of what kind of court cases are happening

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<v Speaker 2>and who's making them. Grace is not something automatically gathered.

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<v Speaker 2>So as we were kind of talking to these guys

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<v Speaker 2>and looking at it though, and even looking at the cases,

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<v Speaker 2>it became clear it's interesting. They're really no different than

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<v Speaker 2>anyone who takes on corporate HR. You stand up and

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<v Speaker 2>you say you think something is wrong, and then you

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<v Speaker 2>cease to have work and that you know. So at

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<v Speaker 2>the same time we're talking about how there's this push

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<v Speaker 2>for more white guys to show up, there's also the

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<v Speaker 2>same reality that the system is maybe broken by which

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<v Speaker 2>we hold corporate HR accountable for how they are treating

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<v Speaker 2>their employees.

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<v Speaker 1>So what did you find when you initially wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>go out and write this story about this demographic that

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<v Speaker 1>is suing. What did you find?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, clearly there's more permission as a white

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<v Speaker 2>male to say I feel like I was discriminated against

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<v Speaker 2>than there was, you know, in twenty twenty, and for

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<v Speaker 2>a large segment or you know, significant segment of the population.

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<v Speaker 2>It's still kind of an insulting proposition. But there's also

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<v Speaker 2>been a lot of sort of I don't know, soul

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<v Speaker 2>searching on this topic. The Supreme Court ruled unanimously basically

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<v Speaker 2>there's no such thing as reverse discrimination and people need

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<v Speaker 2>to stop thinking that way. And I mean not just

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<v Speaker 2>a unanimous decision, but written by the minority of the court.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's like been the shift toward trying to think

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<v Speaker 2>about these in a different way. We're talking about belonging

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<v Speaker 2>instead of diversity. We're doing all these sort of shifts

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<v Speaker 2>in approach to try to get to something that is

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<v Speaker 2>somehow less controversial and moves us forward. And I don't

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<v Speaker 2>think we've come even close to figuring out what that

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<v Speaker 2>looks like. Yeah, but clearly there's chaos and struggle as

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<v Speaker 2>we try to do that.

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<v Speaker 3>I love though this stat you know, it's this is

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<v Speaker 3>this is a great story for like debate and just conversation.

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<v Speaker 3>You say, so, here's here's a white man who sued

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<v Speaker 3>for discrimination. But as you remind us in the story

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<v Speaker 3>men still white men are discriminated against our guests, some

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<v Speaker 3>of the claims of that white men are discriminated against

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<v Speaker 3>our confounding men still make up ninety percent of chief

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<v Speaker 3>executive officers of S and P five hundred companies, largely white.

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<v Speaker 3>I would kind of add, I think, based on research

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<v Speaker 3>as well as about three quarters of all C suite

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<v Speaker 3>employees and the proportion of black men are when men

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<v Speaker 3>who have held the top job is extremely small, currently

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<v Speaker 3>hovering at about one percent. But to be fair, and

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<v Speaker 3>I think we try to figure out what's going on

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<v Speaker 3>in society Jeff, that there is a younger or white

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<v Speaker 3>male population that feels like they have been left behind.

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<v Speaker 3>I know people who feel that way, who had opportunities

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<v Speaker 3>and so on and so forth, but things just didn't

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<v Speaker 3>work out, and they feel like, wait a minute. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>society was supposed to promise me certain things if I

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<v Speaker 3>did this, and it didn't happen. So is there something

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<v Speaker 3>to this that there are some white men with the

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<v Speaker 3>rise of diversity issues that maybe were left at I'm

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<v Speaker 3>not quite sure how to deal with this.

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<v Speaker 2>Well. The challenge is that what we see when we

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<v Speaker 2>look at the S and P five hundred CEOs, and

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<v Speaker 2>we look at the c suite, we're seeing the past.

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<v Speaker 2>Those are the men who got ahead when things were different. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>where people like Jeff Vaughn come from is in the

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<v Speaker 2>messier spot where things are actually changing and shifting more

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<v Speaker 2>than you can see. The demographic of the whole country

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<v Speaker 2>is changing where you can't really see it because you

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<v Speaker 2>see those powerful white faces. And so it's hard when

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<v Speaker 2>you see those powerful white faces to really recognize that

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<v Speaker 2>there's something else happening at people who are closer to

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<v Speaker 2>where the churn is. It still doesn't say that, like

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<v Speaker 2>if you're a black woman, you know you're not in

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<v Speaker 2>a worse situation. There's no, no, no, I'm not trying

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<v Speaker 2>to say that. I'm just saying there is something happening.

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<v Speaker 2>As you said, you know, the stay at home sons,

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<v Speaker 2>the neats that not employed, educated or in training, young

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<v Speaker 2>men who are having a different lived experience, but you

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<v Speaker 2>can't see them. What you see is what ten, fifteen,

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<v Speaker 2>twenty years of power for white men allowed to happen.

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<v Speaker 2>And so that's what makes it hard for people.

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<v Speaker 3>It's fascinating. You do also say that President Trump's Deputy

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<v Speaker 3>Chief of Staff, Stephen Miller, co founder of America First Legal.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a conservative not for profit, is representing Vaughan and

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<v Speaker 3>other white men in cases against companies including Meta, IBM,

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<v Speaker 3>and sheell so a lot. More on this story head

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<v Speaker 3>to The Bloomberger Bloomberg dot Com. Jeff Green, thank you

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<v Speaker 3>so much, Bloomberg News Management University reporter, Glad we could

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<v Speaker 3>get to this story.