WEBVTT - How Hostage Negotiation Works 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.840 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:07.520 It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff you should know 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:16.560 from house Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:20.400 the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. With me is Charles W. 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:24.520 Punkin Bryant. Yeah, doing his cheeks. How you know I'm 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:27.680 in the heavy That's that's why he's right there? Coolio. 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:30.640 This is double good luck. Okay, well good then this 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:34.239 should probably be a pretty good podcast, which means we 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:39.000 are doomed. Yes, Josh, Before we get going, can I 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:41.920 just mentioned a little TV show coming up, uh, the 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:47.280 Road to Punkin Chunkin and Punkin Chunking itself naturally? Yeah? Yeah, 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:50.199 and that, Josh is Thanksgiving Night your board after your 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:54.240 Turkey o on the Science Channel eight Eastern time. Right, 0:00:55.120 --> 0:01:03.080 So insert clever intro chunck. Have you ever been a hostage? No? 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:05.480 Nor have I. I I would remember that, I think, but 0:01:05.720 --> 0:01:09.560 you would. Have you ever seen Inside Man? Uh? No? 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:12.400 Is that which one was at Denzel? No? I didn't 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:16.000 see that, Clive Owen, I wanted to dude, that is 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:18.399 in my opinion, I haven't seen Dog Day Afternoon, but 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:20.960 I think it's the greatest hostage movie ever made. You 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:23.600 haven't seen Dog Day Afternoon. No, Chuck, I'm not seventy 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:25.600 like you. Oh, I forgot that they burned all the 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:28.760 copies in nineteen when you were born in the Great 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:34.280 Fire started by a who. Dog Afternoon was gold. You 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:36.160 should check it out. I will check it up. You 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:38.959 know a hundred year old movie. No, I'm sure it's good. 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:41.400 It was Paccino, it is prom sure, yeah, before he 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:46.360 just went absolutely nuts. Um, well, okay, neither one of 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:49.760 us has been a hostage or seeing each other's movies, right, 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:55.520 But no, we must seen war games. But I can 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:58.000 imagine that if either one of us were a hostage, 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:02.800 there would be a hostage negotiator outside. Right, I would 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:04.800 be dead pretty soon. I think if I were a hostage, 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:08.480 has a pizza delivery person could have delivered that that 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:11.839 segway better than me? Yeah? Yeah, in thirty minutes or less. 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:15.400 Yeah uh so, Yeah, Josh, let's talk about hostage and negotiation. 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:19.760 I can't say that word negotiations. Yes, Chuck, let's it is. 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:22.800 There's a few things going on. Usually the hostage taker 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:27.440 is want something, yeah, money, or they want to free 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:32.320 their brothers that are political prisoners or um, they want 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:35.120 safe passage or something like that, right, or they want 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:39.919 you know, some country to stop some policy at and uh, 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:43.440 usually the target of the hostage shaker is not the 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:48.280 hostage but some other third party. Yeah and yeah, but 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:51.120 we'll we'll get to the exception on that. And I was, 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:53.639 I was chomping at the bit, right, I know, finally 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:57.960 they are hostages are usually only bargaining chips that have 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:02.840 symbolic value, right, Like for example, the nineteen seventy two 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:07.400 Olympic Games in Munich, the hostages there had some serious 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:12.520 symbolic value. They were, um, Israeli athletes and uh what 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:16.240 kind of what kind of terrorists? Well, the target was 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:19.520 the Israeli government clearly, not the athletes. They were the pawn, 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:23.840 the symbolic pawn. Much like in the nineteen seventy two 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:27.400 Olympics in Munich, the hostage crisis that happened there over 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:31.760 what a twenty four period, Um, a bunch of Palestinian 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:37.960 terrorists took some Israeli athletes hostage, and they were targeting Israel. 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:41.480 So these were very symbolic pawns. I guess, as you'd 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:43.200 put them, right, did you see Munich did you say, 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:45.880 my god, it's a good movie. Man, that's a good one. Uh. 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:47.760 And so Josh, now we can move on to the 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:53.040 phases of a hostage situation. Okay, the initial phase, so Chuck, yes, 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:55.920 all right, let's let's dramatize this a little bit. Okay, 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:58.560 the initial phase. Yeah, we're just a group of people 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:01.160 hanging out and say a bank. Sure, we'll do a bank. 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:03.400 And then all of a sudden, a bunch of guys 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:06.720 come through the door, kicking off what's known as the 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:09.760 initial phase, right, like you said, already, right, And what's 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:13.080 the initial phase, Chuck? It is a initial stage of 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:17.320 panic and violence where they subdue the hostages and uh, 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:20.360 it's it's very um. So during the initial phase they 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:24.240 come in, everybody get on the floor, right, right, and 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:27.039 then they barred the doors, and uh, the initial phase 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:29.680 is very brief. Did he like my machine gun? Yeah? 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:33.760 That's good. Then comes the negotiation phase, and that's when 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:36.599 Johnny Law comes on the scene, and that's generally called 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:39.560 the standoff phase. Right, And this is almost always the 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:42.920 longest phase of a hostage situation. This is when all 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:46.000 the negotiation is taking place, when they send in pizza 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:49.279 boxes with little cameras and people have to pee, and 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:53.320 the negotiators saying, if there's a pregnant woman in their 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:57.000 letter out stuff just when people have to pee. Yeah, 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:59.560 that's a good one. And then the final phases that 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:01.760 the ter a nation phase. And uh, you've got a 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:04.800 few different results that can happen here. Um, either the 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:09.720 hostage takers surrender and they're arrested, or the police uh 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:13.680 kind of mountain assault and kill them or arrest them, 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:17.119 or their demands are granted and they get away. Uh. Yeah, 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:21.680 and the second one is actually what happened. Actually, combination 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:25.480 of two and three is what happened in Munich. As 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:28.760 anybody who's seen the movie knows. Um, the West German 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:31.080 police are like, we can't take these guys that, we 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:33.440 need to let them think that they're actually going to 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:36.520 escape and get them to the airport. All the hostages 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:39.159 were killed, along with a pilot and a police officer. 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:43.600 Uh and uh the rest of the um, the hostage takers, 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:47.480 the Palestinian terrorists were killed except for three who were 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:50.280 captured right there. It was a blood bath, basically, Well, 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:52.159 I thought they were hunted down later, didn't that What 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:56.000 Munich was about the people who engineered it. Okay, we're 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:59.520 supposedly hunted down later by the massad bright Eric Bannah, 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:05.520 who is just clearly most solid material the Australian massade. Um. 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:08.520 So yeah, those are the three phases. And um during 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:11.400 the second phases when the negotiator comes on the scene, 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:15.120 right and UM, if you've ever seen the movie Negotiator, 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:20.000 the negotiators clearly disappointed. Um. But there was something that 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:25.920 is very characteristic of hostage negotiation, and that is it's 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:29.440 a very important point that the hostage negotiator not be 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:34.480 the league commander on the scene. And why Chuck well 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:37.520 because um, Well, for a couple of reasons. One is 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:41.200 that the negotiator doesn't need to be multitasking right then, 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:43.839 they need to have all their focus on talking to 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:46.880 and talking down the hostage taker. This one reason that's 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:49.760 part of it. They also, um, one of the one 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:53.960 of the great tactics that hostage negotiators use is um 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:57.320 to stall and they prolonged the situation. That seems like 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:00.279 the main tactic, right, it's just by time. One of 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:02.919 the one of the tactics they use to create that tactic, 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:05.479 UM is to say, well, I can't make that call 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:08.719 I've got to talk to somebody else. Um, And if 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:12.800 it's common knowledge that the hostage negotiator actually is commanding 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:15.440 the scene, then that doesn't really work. Right. They'll say, well, 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:16.840 you can pull the trigger on that because you're the 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:19.240 boss exactly, and they're like, no, no, no, don't use 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:22.160 that phrase. Right. That's in every movie, every single hostage 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:24.240 movie is that scene where they go, well, I just 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:27.320 can't give you a seven forty seven full of gold bars, dude. 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:29.880 I gotta get clearance from Fort Knox and I'm gonna 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:32.400 take at least a day, so you might want to 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:35.440 lower your demands, which is actually another reason they stalled 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:38.960 to try and chip away at the demands. So the 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:41.880 negotiators on the scene and he's trying to prolong the situation. 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:44.600 Like you said, um, they're trying to lessen the demands. 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:48.480 They're also um, but they also stall and prolong the 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:53.680 situation by um, getting the hostage takers to focus on 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:56.800 some minute and really unimportant details. Yeah, I like this. 0:07:56.880 --> 0:07:59.240 They try to derail them, so like the seven forty seven, 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:01.320 what kind of seven forty seven do you want? It? 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:05.720 Is it okay if it was built before? Because we've 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:07.760 got some that are built after that. But then they 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:10.320 have this seating arrangement that might be a problem for you, 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:13.400 And and all of a sudden, you're distracting the hostage 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:17.120 taker from the crisis at hand, and he's thinking about 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:20.520 what kind of seven seven he wants? You know, I 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:22.520 could just see the guy putting his hand over the 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:24.680 thing and going, what kind of plane do we want? 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:28.600 He's asking about seek configurations. I have no idea, right exactly. 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:31.000 It's also they hang up, and then you've bought some time, 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:34.679 right And and not only um, not every hostage taker 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:36.560 once a seven forty seven, but this can also be 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:40.400 applied to even more minute details, like what do you 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:43.160 want on your pizza? You know? Well, I mean, do 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:46.440 you really want bell pepper because you're getting onion already 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:48.960 and sometimes it's too crunchy. I imagine there's a point 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:52.200 where if you're talking to a hostage taker and you 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:55.400 try the bell Pepper onion combo, because all they're gonna 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:57.440 pick up on what you're doing, or if they've read 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.120 this article or ever ever seen a hostage movie, be 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:02.360 sure that's another good they would probably be wise to 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:03.839 say it. It sounds to me like you're trying to 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:07.520 buy some time here, bang bang, indeed, which is what 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:11.160 the hostage negotiator does not want to happen. No, that's 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:13.320 number two on their list. One is to prolong it. 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:15.720 And while while they're prolonging it, we should mention that 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:19.320 there trying to get information as much information as possible 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:23.160 on who the person is, how many there are, what's 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:27.640 frame of mind they're in, if they're unstable, if they're violent, um, 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:29.840 any kind of clue that can that can help him out, right, 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.000 Because a hostage negotiator is going to talk differently. They're 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:35.560 not going to try that Bell pepper onion thing on 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:39.240 like a very cool, calculated Clive Owens type, but they 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:41.680 might on somebody who's like just out of his mind 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:44.360 crazy because his wife is leaving him. Right, which is 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:49.000 actually the most common hostage situation is a domestic dispute 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:52.800 that's turned into some guy with the gun barricading he 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:55.760 and his family in their home. Yeah, you usually think 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:59.120 of the big movie scenario with some foreign enemy taking 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:02.240 all these people hot stage, but it's usually just a 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:05.880 regular domestic scene. And the worst ones, man, the worst 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:08.280 ones of those you see on the news where you 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:12.199 see some dudes got a baby acting as a human shield. 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:15.439 Who does that? You've never seen that? No, Oh man, 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:18.160 it's it's the worst watching those cop shows, that those 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:22.440 true crime shows. A baby is a human shield. Guys. 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:24.400 It's like the dad is out of his mind and 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:26.920 uh on drugs or something and he'll have his baby 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:28.720 and it's just it's the worst thing in the world 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:32.320 to watch unfold, very disturbing. Well bet in fact, don't 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:34.400 go see that, Joshua. That'll keep you up at night. 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:37.480 I bet it will. So that is the most common 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:40.800 type of things domestic. But back to the safety of 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:43.200 the hostages. That's number two on the list of the 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:46.520 negotiators to keep everyone in there alive, right, I would 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:49.720 think could technically be number one. Well, prolonging the situation 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:51.640 I think leads to number one. So it's the kind 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:54.240 of tied right. So, um, what you want to do 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:57.640 if you're a negotiator and you are chipping away at demands. 0:10:57.920 --> 0:10:59.680 First of all, you're trying to get the seven forty 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.079 seven out the window or the gold bars from Fort Knox, 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:03.800 But you're really trying to get to the heart of 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:05.440 what what does this guy want? He wants the seven 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:07.959 forty seven and he wants gold bars. Well, he wants 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:11.160 to escape and he wants some money, So maybe it 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:13.520 can be dealt with on a lesser level. But first, 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:16.040 let's get you some food in there. But to get 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:18.440 you some food, I need a hostage. To get as 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:21.240 many hostages out as possible. Number one, to ensure the 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:23.800 safety of the hostages, as you said, but number two 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:27.120 for if when when an assault comes, if it does come, 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:29.880 there's a lot fewer hostages in there that the police 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:33.560 need to not shoot, you know, Plus the hostage did 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:35.920 you just say this, The hostage can turn if they 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:37.760 release someone who's like ill or pregnant, they can give 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:41.120 them information, insider information, right, like, even to create an 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:44.480 even more distinct psychological profile. That kind of right, right, Yeah. 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:46.120 I like the fact that you were talking about the 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:50.520 lessening the demands, like we can't get your seven forty 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:52.839 seven and gold bars, and it really could. I could 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:54.840 see that throwing the hostage taker into a tizzy. If 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:57.960 all of a sudden there have to decide, well, will 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:00.840 you take a helicopter in a cash years chat? That 0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:04.080 kind of well, actually I hadn't thought it before, but 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:07.800 will you endorse it before him right, Yeah, let's go 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:09.959 to the bank. Oh I'm in a bank. Awesome, Yes, 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:13.320 bring me that cast. Here's check please. So number three 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:16.600 on their list is to keep everything calm. You don't 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:20.400 want to upset a hostage taker. No, you're gonna keep 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:24.480 everything nice and chill, especially following the initial phase, that 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:27.520 initial assault. The guys all jacked up on like adrenaline. 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:29.840 He's a little crazy. All of a sudden, it's starting 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:33.120 to sink in if he accidentally took hostages, starting to 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:36.560 sinking like, oh my god, I'm I am a hostage taker. 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:39.240 Now this is a little nuts. So you want to 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:42.040 keep the guy calm, or the guys or the gals calm, 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:48.640 especially if it was a biter mine Hoff experiment. No 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:51.680 idea what that is. It's actually the there's a movie 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:55.280 out called the Body mine Hoff Complex, I think um. 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:58.679 And they actually introduced terrorism to the Western world where 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:02.680 was a group of Germans, German radicals, Kevin Space, basically 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:07.679 board kids that introduced things like skyjacking and stuff like that. 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:12.160 They were crazy crazy, uh so, Josh. The fourth thing, 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:14.240 and this was my favorite one. Actually, one of the 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:18.640 goals of the hostage negotiator is to um, get the 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:22.400 hostage taker and the hostages to work together to give 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:26.840 them some task where they have to interact, like delivering 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:31.920 the pizza. So send out, um, you're you're most agreeable 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.880 hostage that you trust the most to get the pizza 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:36.360 and bring it in. So all of a sudden, the 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:39.240 hostage taker has to talk to the hostages and say, hey, 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:40.760 we need you to go and get the pizza because 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:43.520 we can't go within the sniper range. And the more 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:46.120 you get them interacting, the more chance that the hostage 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:49.480 taker sees the hostage as a human instead of just 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:51.679 blind phoning them and putting them in the corner right 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:54.960 or in shooting them in the head. There was actually 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:59.120 a very famous case of that in some hostage takers 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:02.920 took over a subway train or a train in Holland 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:06.400 and a guy named Robert de Groot was about to 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:11.320 be executed Chuck, and apparently they allowed him to pray first, 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:13.960 and they heard him praying for his wife and children, 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:16.800 and they got them so bad that they just couldn't 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:20.160 execute the guy, so they actually fake executed him. Uh, 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:23.160 the standoff continued, and when it came time to execute 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:25.080 more hostages, they didn't give him a chance to pray 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:27.800 and just actually executed him. And I'm sure they pushed 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:29.720 him off the train and he rolled down the hill 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:32.480 and like faked like he was dead. And I'm sure 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:35.200 the rest of the hostages were like, thanks, Bob, you 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:39.240 right now we don't even not only can we not pray, 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:41.080 but we're getting a bullet in the head. Yeah, And 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:44.120 I was thinking about that, like this is you feel 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:46.240 so removed from it. The weird thing about being a 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:48.920 hostage is like, no one plans on being a hostage. 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:52.200 It just happens all of a sudden. And imagine dying 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:55.120 on a train on some track in halland by being 0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:59.240 executed by some hostage taker during a standoff. What a 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:03.640 crap way to die. You ride on the money there, brother, Yeah, 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:06.520 so Chuck, I think I think it's pretty damn pretentious 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:08.760 of us to have not brought up Stockholm syndrome yet, 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:12.240 don't you. Yeah, go ahead identifying with your captor. Yeah, 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:14.360 it actually came out of a bank robbery and I 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:21.040 think nineteen eighty one um in Stockholm appropriately enough, and uh, 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:24.440 this this bank robbers plan just kind of went to crap. 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:29.080 And I've been like using pseudo bad words all day, 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:33.040 stupid and weird. This bank robbers plan kind of went 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:35.880 to pot and all of a sudden he was a 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:41.120 hostage taker. Right, Well, this standoff continued, and strangely enough, 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:44.160 the hostage just started helping him. They were serving his lookouts. 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:46.120 They were giving him advice on how to escape and 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:48.280 how to deal with the negotiator and all that. And 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:51.360 that's kind of odd if you think about it. So 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:54.880 why would why would people suffer this what they call 0:15:55.000 --> 0:16:00.680 Stockholm syndrome. Well, there's a lot of psychological reasons for it. Yeah, 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:05.440 defense mechanism, coping, coping type of thing. Well, yeah, if 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:08.080 you feel powerless in a situation like that, you go 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.800 to whoever has the power, and when you're a hostage, 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:13.800 your hostage taker has the power. Yeah. And the other 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.480 thing I mentioned too, is that if you're not killed 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.240 and there are other hostages are killed, you feel such 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:23.160 a sense of relief that can actually morph into sympathy. 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:25.360 It's kind of like I remember we did the brainwashing 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:29.400 Uh yeah podcast? Yeah, good one. Uh you want to 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:34.920 talk about countries and some famous non negotiating countries. Yeah, 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:37.360 do you remember the eighties, it was like planes were 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:42.040 getting hijacked everywhere all over the body Mine Hoff. Yes, 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:44.960 the the United States, Russia, and Israel are all very 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:50.400 well known for having a non negotiating policy with hostage 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:55.080 takers and terrorists. France had the opposite didn't work out 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:57.760 for him, though, No, it didn't. France became very quickly 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:01.280 a target um for hostage to a king because France 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:04.800 would apparently be like, what do you want? Ha ha ha. Right, 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:09.600 And apparently sometimes, and this doesn't surprise me, the countries 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:12.800 that refused quote unquote refused to negotiate, there might be 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:16.320 some secret negotiations that happened that they never let out 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:19.959 because that would destroy their front that they won't negotiate, right. 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:23.280 And France also apparently had a little problem with um 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:26.959 forming agreements with hostage takers, and then the hostage takers 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:29.800 would break the agreements, which is crazy, can you believe it? 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:32.920 With a bunch of So there is a there's an equilibrium, 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:37.360 Chuck loves equilibrium. But there's an equilibrium between not negotiating 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:40.159 at all and over negotiating. And I think that's what 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:42.480 you're talking about. It's kind of like negotiating on the 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:45.840 download and never talking about it and then hunting the 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:49.359 people down who did this and murdering them. Right, So, Chuck, 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:52.399 let's talk about what happens when you just absolutely refused 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:55.600 to negotiate, as we've seen actually in the twenty one century, 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:58.920 sadly enough twice in Russia. Yeah, a couple of famous 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:04.199 occurrences there with the Muslim Chechen separatists. In two thousand two, 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:07.440 they took over a theater in Russia, threatened to blow 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:11.879 it up, and so the Russians go in and wonder 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:16.000 who who was it putin? You think the guy who 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:18.560 wrestles tigers with his shirt off in front of news cameras, 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:21.359 don't you don't bear his hallmark? Yeah, they decided to 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:24.960 storm the theater and uh send in some knockout gas 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:28.480 instead of negotiating, and they ended up killing all. I 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:30.240 don't know if it's all of them, but a hundred 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:34.560 and twenty nine hostages died from the knockout knockout gas. 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:36.960 That's not knockout, guess that's death gass. I think that's 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:39.119 what you mean by knockout. I don't think they just 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:41.679 don't want to call it death gass. Maybe. So my 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:43.919 eyes are open now because I didn't realize that was 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:47.120 a euphemism. The other one, Josh, was really really sad. 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:49.720 I remember this one while in oh four when the 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:54.280 same Chechen separatists invaded an elementary school with guns and 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:59.199 bombs and locked themselves up in a gym and Russia 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:02.159 would not Negotia eight and three of the hostages that 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:05.200 were killed. Yeah, that was awful. And half of them 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:08.520 were kids. When they blew up the gymnasium, it was terrible. 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:11.960 Listen up Putin. Yeah, but you maintain your toughness and 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:15.800 we're not gonna negotiate. Just kill the kids. Okay, so 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:19.680 chuck you you okay there, Yeah, I'm good. I'm good. 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:23.639 Let's talk about a hostage situation that actually went relatively well, 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:27.320 at least compared to UM Russia. I know what you're 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:30.240 gonna talk about. Well, there's a very famous incident at 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:35.080 Prince's Gate UH in London in April UM members of 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:40.159 the Democratic Revolutionary Movement for the Liberation of Arabistan changed 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:44.080 that name. It's a mouthful, isn't it. Basically Arabistan is 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:48.440 an Iranian province UH, and the group wanted to liberate 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:52.920 it clearly UM. And they were Democrats I guess. But 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:55.960 they were. They were I think twenty of them and 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:58.040 they took no, there were six of them and they 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:01.399 took twenty six hostages at the US Embassy in London 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:06.000 at Prince's Gate. So there was a uh standoff that 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:09.879 lasted quite a while. Um. The hostage negotiator did this. 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:14.280 By the book, UH kept the hostage takers focused on 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:16.679 details like what kind of food do you want? That 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:20.880 kind of thing. Um, Yeah, I'm in the mood for time. 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:24.640 I could go for a nice um curry bunha. Yeah, 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:27.439 that sounds good. That's Indian though. That's good stuff, by 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:31.240 the way, if you've ever had it. Um. They actually 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:36.320 did execute one hostage, but the other hostages apparently reported 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:39.439 that this guy UM decided to get into a debate 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:44.240 over Islam with Iranian terrorists, which you don't do in 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:48.320 a hostage situation if you hostage. The negotiator actually did 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:52.080 manage to get the release of two ill hostages. Um. 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:54.560 Maybe one of them is pregnant. Sometimes when you replaced 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:56.960 ill with pregnant, which I don't understand, And they got 0:20:56.960 --> 0:21:00.239 info from them. Yeah. And so basically the one thing 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:03.439 that really wasn't by the book was that the the 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:06.719 s a. Yes, got the which is the Special Forces 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:09.760 in Great Britain. They are bad. I have a friend 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:14.280 who's in that. Yeah, I can't say his name here, okay. Um, 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:19.640 they got the hostage negotiator to talk to the hostage 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:23.480 takers on the phone right before the assault, knowing the 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:26.600 assault was coming as a distraction. Right. That doesn't happen much, 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:30.360 not usually. And why because they don't let the negotiator 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:32.600 in on this kind of information, because they think that 0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:36.960 they would compromise the job just through maybe even inflection 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:39.280 or tone of their voice. They would give it away 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:43.320 right on purpose. Of course, No, no, certainly not. Very 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:49.719 few hostage negotiators experienced Stockholm syndrome negotiation. Definitely just mentally 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:53.320 crumble at the first time. But this it actually paid off. 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:57.720 The hostage negotiator cut the um lead guy away from 0:21:57.720 --> 0:21:59.920 the window and the s A S storm the bill 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:03.560 boom too tap. I imagine five of the guys and 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:06.000 arrest the sixth. Ye not bad. And I think they 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:09.760 only lost one other hostage, uh twenty six, which is 0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:12.080 not bad. No, but I mean if your storm of 0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:15.199 building in the hostage situation, it's like, well, yeah, that 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:17.560 guy lost his life and another guy lost his life. 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:22.200 But it's like, yeah, but that's actually really good percentage, 0:22:22.200 --> 0:22:24.879