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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome into the podcast. I'm Josh and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you

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Speaker 2: should know. And if you're gonna do it, do it right?

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Speaker 3: Do it with us? Is that a song?

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Speaker 2: It's a George Michael song. Okay, I don't remember the song.

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Speaker 2: He's like, Babe, Babe, I'm your man. Don't you know

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Speaker 2: why I am?

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Speaker 3: I think that's wham, isn't it?

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Speaker 2: Maybe could be they're virtually interchangeable. Sorry, Andrew, Oh my goodness. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Did you know George did everything with last Christmas? I

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Speaker 2: mean he wrote it all, he composed it, He's sang it.

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Speaker 2: Andy played the instruments.

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Speaker 3: Uh No, I didn't know that. I didn't know he

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Speaker 3: played instruments. And I even saw a document him.

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Speaker 2: I didn't either, but I saw that somewhere. I didn't

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Speaker 2: follow up about it. Now I'm sweating that it's not true.

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Speaker 3: Well, hopefully at the end of this episode, no one

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Speaker 3: more remembered George Michael's Christmas song.

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Speaker 2: Great point, Chuck, because this episode is much more serious

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Speaker 2: than George Michael's heart that he gave away. Foolishly last Christmas.

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Speaker 2: This is about one of the darkest moments in American

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Speaker 2: law enforcement history. Yeah, and very maddeningly one that the

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Speaker 2: federal government just basically walked away from, like just kind

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Speaker 2: of dusting off his hands, like, yeah, we got out

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Speaker 2: of that one. There hasn't really ever been any real

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Speaker 2: accountability for Waco, despite attempts, Like there are tons of

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Speaker 2: like hearings and stuff like that, but really, like overall,

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Speaker 2: there just wasn't any huge reckoning over it, and there

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Speaker 2: should have been because it was an American tragedy, even

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Speaker 2: if in some ways the Branch to Vidian group were,

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Speaker 2: you know, at least partially responsible for sure, they're part two.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I hope that comes across in this episode

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Speaker 3: because I know we're going to get a little probably

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Speaker 3: riled up here and there about like how it was handled.

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Speaker 3: But I'll go ahead and just say my takeaway at

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Speaker 3: the beginning. You know, you can't you can't hole up

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Speaker 3: and be a pedophile in a house, and you can't

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Speaker 3: illegally like collect and sell and modify guns into machine

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Speaker 3: guns and sell those Like no one's disputing that stuff, right.

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Speaker 3: I think the issue is the way this all went

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Speaker 3: down in the end when it could have probably gone

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Speaker 3: down with the loss of zero lives, ye, much less

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Speaker 3: the loss of what was at eighty six.

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Speaker 2: People total, Yeah, including twenty kids.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So that that's sort of the issue at hand

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Speaker 3: for me personally.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that that hits it on the nose.

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Speaker 3: Well, let's talk about the Branch Davidians. A. Yeah, because

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Speaker 3: I up until two days ago, I thought that Davidians

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Speaker 3: came from David Koresh. I thought they got that name

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Speaker 3: from him as their leader, just because I didn't know

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Speaker 3: a ton about it aside from, you know, kind of

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Speaker 3: following it as it happened when I was in college

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Speaker 3: on the news. But the Branch Davidians, they got that

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Speaker 3: name because in nineteen fifty five, a guy named Benjamin

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Speaker 3: Roaden started a branch, a new sect of Seventh day Adventists,

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Speaker 3: a Davidian sect, which had, you know, to do with

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Speaker 3: the monarchy of Israel under King David. It had nothing

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Speaker 3: to do with David Koresh as David.

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Speaker 2: Right, he retrofitted his name. He was actually born Vernon

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Speaker 2: Wayne Howell, and he's like, yeah, you know, I could

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Speaker 2: probably get a lot further trying to become the leader

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Speaker 2: of this sect, if I changed my name to the

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Speaker 2: same name as the name of the sect, yeah, so yes,

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Speaker 2: they actually split. They were a branch, but then they

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Speaker 2: split fully from the Adventist Church because they started to

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Speaker 2: predict the date of you know, end times, started to

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Speaker 2: follow leaders as prophets, and the Seventh day Adventists are like,

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Speaker 2: we did that like a century ago. We don't do

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Speaker 2: that anymore. You guys, go away. And so the teachings

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Speaker 2: though of the people before David Koresh. When he came in,

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Speaker 2: there was a woman named Lois Rodent. They attracted dozens

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Speaker 2: of people at any given time. They were probably somewhere

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Speaker 2: around one hundred people who were living and working in worshiping.

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Speaker 2: I guess at the what was called Mount Carmel, their

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Speaker 2: compound outside of Waco. The branch Davidians were pretty well

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Speaker 2: suited for the Waco, Texas area. They were into guns,

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Speaker 2: they were into religion. They interacted with the rest of

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Speaker 2: the community. They were free to come and go. They

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Speaker 2: didn't believe that David Koresh was God like. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: like a cult in the way that it's often portrayed

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Speaker 2: or that we generally think of cults, but at the

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Speaker 2: same time, they were millennialists. They thought that end times

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Speaker 2: was coming, and that essentially what they were doing and

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Speaker 2: what the ATF was doing to them was bringing about

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Speaker 2: judgment day. That's what was going on with these guys,

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Speaker 2: and they were such believers that they were willing to

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Speaker 2: dig in and sacrifice their own lives to help bring

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Speaker 2: judgment day sooner, I guess.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but some of them fully believed he was the Messiah.

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Speaker 3: By the way, that's really huh. Yeah, did you watch

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Speaker 3: the documentary?

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Speaker 2: No, I didn't see the documentary. I saw just the

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Speaker 2: stuff I read, basically, was that they believed he was

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Speaker 2: the Lamb, which is the person who can interpret the

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Speaker 2: seven seals that will bring about judgment Day. But beyond that,

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Speaker 2: he wasn't like God or anything like that. He was

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Speaker 2: a prophet of sorts, but not like a Messiah. That's

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Speaker 2: what I saw.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, he said with his own mouth, I am

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Speaker 3: the Messiah, and there are Davidians that are still alive

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Speaker 3: that believe he was a Messiah.

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Speaker 2: So well, there goes me.

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Speaker 3: Another thing I didn't know is that that Mount Carmel

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Speaker 3: had been active since nineteen thirty five, so it had

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Speaker 3: been around a long long time. It's about thirteen miles

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Speaker 3: northeast of Waco, Texas, And so they had been around

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Speaker 3: for a long long time, and in fifty five is

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Speaker 3: when that official split came, and then fifty nine was when.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's why they were like, hey, don't

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Speaker 3: predict these second comings, because when they don't happen, you

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Speaker 3: end up looking kind of dumb, exactly, And that happened

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Speaker 3: in nineteen fifty five. The second coming did not happen,

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Speaker 3: and so they ended up there with that last group,

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Speaker 3: Like you said, about one hundred people. Koresh had been

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Speaker 3: around since he was in his early twenties. He got

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Speaker 3: off to a kind of a rocky start there because

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Speaker 3: he had had an affair with Lois Roden, who I

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Speaker 3: guess was Benjamin Roden's wife, Yes, if the math checks out.

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Speaker 3: She was in her sixties and he was in his twenties,

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Speaker 3: and he got into a squabble with her son about

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Speaker 3: who was going to become leader and ended up shooting him,

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Speaker 3: and like he was arrested and everything, and it was

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Speaker 3: a hung jury, so he never he never had to

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Speaker 3: serve time for that shooting.

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Speaker 2: Right, So he took over like after that he was

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Speaker 2: pretty much the undisputed leader. One of the first things

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Speaker 2: he did was he married a fourteen year old member

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Speaker 2: of the church, and her parents consented and said, yeah, sure,

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Speaker 2: be married to our fourteen year old daughter who you're

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Speaker 2: ten years older than, which made it legal in Texas

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Speaker 2: at the time. That was you know, sign number one.

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Speaker 2: But if you rewind a little bit before he showed

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Speaker 2: up at the branch Davidian compound, he had actually been

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Speaker 2: d fellow shipped is what it's called where the Adventists

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Speaker 2: kick you out, because he had seduced, Yeah, which I

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Speaker 2: think means that he sexually assaulted and actually successfully sexually

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Speaker 2: assaulted a fifteen year old daughter of one of the

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Speaker 2: church's elders.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. You know, he had a pretty rough upbringing before that.

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Speaker 3: Like you said, he was born in Houston. He was

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Speaker 3: reportedly had suffered sexual abuse of his own at the

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Speaker 3: hands of older boys. He had dyslexia and did not

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Speaker 3: do well in school. I think he failed first grade

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Speaker 3: a couple of times and was a dropout by the

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Speaker 3: time he was in middle school. And yeah, so you

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Speaker 3: know that was his sort of rough childhood.

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Speaker 2: For sure, and over the years he kind of got

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Speaker 2: into guns. He really got into the Bible like that

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Speaker 2: was one of the things that I think people were

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Speaker 2: drawn to about him at the Branch Davinians sect was

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Speaker 2: like he knew what he was talking about. He was

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Speaker 2: also very charismatic, and he could essentially run Bible studies

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Speaker 2: that ran, you know, ten twelve hours at a length,

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Speaker 2: and people weren't getting fatigued, like they were still just

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Speaker 2: jazz the whole time. So he definitely knew what he

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Speaker 2: was talking about. He wasn't just making stuff up the

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Speaker 2: top of his head, like he very much understood the

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Speaker 2: Book of Revelations in particular.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. One of the first things he did

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Speaker 3: once he was in charge was he said, God has

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Speaker 3: told me that I need to bear a lot of children,

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Speaker 3: and I need to have multiple wives in order to

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Speaker 3: do that. I think he was supposed to God told

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Speaker 3: him to have or at least he said, God told

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Speaker 3: him to have twenty four children and they would be

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Speaker 3: sort of the rulers in the future kingdom. And so

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Speaker 3: at first he started with the single women of the group,

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Speaker 3: and then that wasn't enough and he was having a

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Speaker 3: lot of kids. I think he had seventeen in the end.

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Speaker 3: Then he moved on to the married women and separated

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Speaker 3: the couples out and said, all right, you can no

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Speaker 3: longer be with your husband. I'm the only one here.

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Speaker 3: I'm the only male here who was allowed to have intercourse.

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Speaker 3: All the other guys have to remain celibate. And they

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Speaker 3: all went along with it. And you know this included

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Speaker 3: taking children up girls. That was this one woman, Cathy Schrow,

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Speaker 3: who was very disturbing because she still believes all this stuff.

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Speaker 3: But she was interviewed who said that they were all

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Speaker 3: trying to stay awake, all the girls at the end

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Speaker 3: of these marathon Bible studies, even though they were exhausted,

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Speaker 3: so he would pick them to go back to his

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Speaker 3: room and have sex with them. And she also it

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Speaker 3: was really hard to watch, but she still to this

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Speaker 3: day was like, they weren't children. We weren't children. They

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Speaker 3: sure some of them were as young as ten, but

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Speaker 3: they were adults in our culture. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Man, you know how the world found out about that too?

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Speaker 3: Chuck about which part.

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Speaker 2: Well about him sexually abusing minors children. It was a

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Speaker 2: current affairs show. Well, first the Way Tribune Harald did

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Speaker 2: a series of articles on it, so that caught the

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Speaker 2: local attention. But a current affairs show called a Current Affair,

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Speaker 2: the Australian version, back in nineteen ninety two went and

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Speaker 2: interviewed David Koresh. And this is before anybody knew who

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Speaker 2: David Koresh was, so they had a lot of foresight

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Speaker 2: and they went and investigated it because this is a

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Speaker 2: I mean, obviously it's a really big deal that there's

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Speaker 2: a yeah, essentially what everyone thought of at the time

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Speaker 2: and still do in a lot of ways. A cult

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Speaker 2: leader who is sexually abusing the children of his sect,

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Speaker 2: that's definitely worth investigating. That's not what the ATF investigated

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Speaker 2: him for them.

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Speaker 3: No, they're the ATF. They don' dabble in that kind

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Speaker 3: of stuff. What they do dabble in is guns and firearms,

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Speaker 3: and that is what got them. You know, I mentioned

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Speaker 3: early on they were illegally collecting and buying and selling

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Speaker 3: and retrofitting basically making machine guns and then selling those

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Speaker 3: illegally at gun shows, and so that's what caught their attention.

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Speaker 3: And you know, they were collecting these guns and supposedly

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Speaker 3: like more than like close to two million rounds of ammunition,

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Speaker 3: training everyone in there to use, like including the kids.

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Speaker 3: To use these weapons. They were preparing for the end days.

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Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, and they were going to go out with

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Speaker 2: guns blazing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, well, which is what they did allegedly.

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Speaker 2: The thing that initially caught the ATF's attention. They were

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Speaker 2: already aware that there was such a thing as the

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Speaker 2: Branch Davidians and that they had a business selling guns

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Speaker 2: at gun shows. But the thing that really caught their

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Speaker 2: attention was apparently a UPS driver was delivering a box

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Speaker 2: and I guess the box fell open and a bunch

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Speaker 2: of grenade shells fell out, and the UPS driver thought

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Speaker 2: that's odd, like who gets fifty grenade shells delivered to

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Speaker 2: their compound? And I guess alerted the federal authorities, and

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Speaker 2: that's when they really started investigating the Branch Davidians. I say,

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Speaker 2: we take a break and talk about how well that

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Speaker 2: investigation was conducted. How about that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll be right back, all right. I think I

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Speaker 3: snickered when we left because you Riley said, we'll talk

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Speaker 3: about how that went, because it did not go well

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Speaker 3: for a while. In fact, none of this went well

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Speaker 3: before the raid ultimately happened. There were a lot of

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Speaker 3: just kind of stupid moves from the ATF one time,

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Speaker 3: they were like, hey, we need to keep an eye

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Speaker 3: on this. So there's a house sort of nearby. I

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Speaker 3: think it was like seventy acres the whole compound, but

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Speaker 3: there was a house about a half a mile away,

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Speaker 3: and they said, let's pose this college students. They're like

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Speaker 3: renting this house, but they come in there. I feel

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Speaker 3: like anytime like these people try to go undercover like that,

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Speaker 3: like let's pose as kids out having a good time,

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Speaker 3: and it just never goes well. And it didn't. They

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Speaker 3: had suitcases, they had rental cars, like new rental cars.

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Speaker 3: They eventually were like, I think they're onto us, so

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Speaker 3: let's have a party. And one of the branch Davidians

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Speaker 3: came to the party and I'm sure they were like, hey,

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Speaker 3: would you like a Bruski and the branch Davidian went

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Speaker 3: back on like, by the way, those are definitely not college.

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Speaker 2: Students, right right. Don't you hate mortgages too, fellows, Yes,

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Speaker 2: young person. I saw they also carried briefcases as well,

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Speaker 2: rather than backpacked and stuff. So yeah, it wasn't the

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Speaker 2: best undercover operation. They sent another undercover agent to pose

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Speaker 2: as a UPS employee, and he did all sorts of

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Speaker 2: stuff that ups employees don't do, Like he insisted that

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Speaker 2: they Branch Davidians let him use the phone in a bathroom,

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Speaker 2: and then he went to another part of the compound

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Speaker 2: and tried the same thing, and they met him at

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Speaker 2: the door with a roll of toilet paper, and then

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Speaker 2: another guy, Robert Rodriguez. He actually managed to successfully embed

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Speaker 2: himself in the Branch Davidians. He showed up as a

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Speaker 2: student and a follower and started attending Bible studies and

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Speaker 2: it was successful in that, like he was never kicked out,

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Speaker 2: but it was unsuccessful in that they knew that he

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Speaker 2: was a federal agent almost from the outset, and later on,

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Speaker 2: I think during these negotiation talks, the FBI was like, well,

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Speaker 2: if you knew he was undercover, why didn't you kick

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Speaker 2: him out? And I don't remember who said it. One

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Speaker 2: of them said, we liked him, like we saw it

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Speaker 2: as core. He was a good guy and we liked

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Speaker 2: being around and we came to like him, so why

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Speaker 2: would we kick him out? So it was really weird,

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Speaker 2: like they were almost toying with the Feds because they

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Speaker 2: knew the Feds were investigating them, And it was so

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Speaker 2: clumsy that they didn't feel particularly threatened at this point,

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Speaker 2: but the whole thing started in May nineteen ninety two,

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Speaker 2: and by February nineteen ninety three, I guess the ATF

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Speaker 2: was like, we have enough information that we're going to

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Speaker 2: we're going to carry out a raid. We're not just

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Speaker 2: going to show up and ask him to come out.

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Speaker 2: We're going to carry a hard hitting raid. And why

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Speaker 2: did they do that?

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Speaker 3: Chuck Well, I mean, they got a warrant, so they

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Speaker 3: had enough information to at least get a like a

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Speaker 3: legal warrant to search everything. Their goal initially was to

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Speaker 3: just get those illegal weapons. Arrest David Koresh, who, by

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Speaker 3: the way, and I think you found this was that

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Speaker 3: like he had a relationship with the local sheriff, and

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Speaker 3: at any point the local sheriff could and I think

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Speaker 3: did say like hey man, once you come in and

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Speaker 3: like talk to us about what's going on, and that happened,

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Speaker 3: so like none of this seemed to have been completely necessary.

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Speaker 3: I think they also were the und of the impression

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Speaker 3: that like they were bunkered in and like he never

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Speaker 3: left the compound, But upon further investigation, they found that

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Speaker 3: he kind of regularly would leave the compound and they

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Speaker 3: probably could have lured him out, but they you know,

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Speaker 3: they were kind of bungling this from the beginning, so

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Speaker 3: they planned a surprise kind of raid warrant serving where

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Speaker 3: they would force entry, and they were like, we're going

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Speaker 3: to catch them off guard, they won't have time to

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Speaker 3: arm themselves, and it's going to go great.

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Speaker 2: They had a lot of bad intelligence too, that this

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Speaker 2: raid was based on. One. I don't know where they

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Speaker 2: got this, but they were under the impression that all

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Speaker 2: of the weapons were kept under lock and key and

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Speaker 2: that you only access those with Koresh's direct permission. That's

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Speaker 2: not true at all. The weapons were all over the

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Speaker 2: compound and basically everybody walking around the compound knew how

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Speaker 2: to use them and was prepared to right. That's a

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Speaker 2: really big intelligence failure when you're planning a raid. Another

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Speaker 2: is there was a pit that they assumed that most,

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Speaker 2: if not all, of the men would be working in,

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Speaker 2: and apparently during the surveillance the most bend that had

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Speaker 2: ever been seen there at one time was thirteen. So

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Speaker 2: that was a bad assumption. And then, like you said,

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Speaker 2: they were like, he never leaves the compound, so we

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Speaker 2: have to raid them there's one other thing about the raid.

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Speaker 2: So the ATF was conducting the raid at the time.

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Speaker 2: The ATF reported to the Treasury Department, and they planned

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Speaker 2: this raid based on the element of surprise, right, The

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Speaker 2: whole thing was supposed to have the element of surprise,

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Speaker 2: And later on there would be a lot of disagreement

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Speaker 2: about whether this was said or not. But supposedly the

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Speaker 2: higher ups of Treasury were like, if there's no element

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Speaker 2: of surprise anymore, if you lose it, yeah, don't do

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Speaker 2: the raid. And that's not what happened.

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Speaker 3: No, And you know, part of this makes me wonder

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Speaker 3: if they were feeding that informant bad information too. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: I didn't ever see anything about that, but like I've

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Speaker 3: seen enough movies to know if they kept inviting this

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Speaker 3: guy back to Bible study, then they may have been saying, like,

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Speaker 3: you know, all the guns here are under lock and

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Speaker 3: key or whatever. But who knows. That is chuck speculations.

336
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Speaker 3: Don't quote me on it.

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Speaker 2: It seems like it could be.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, so the raid is blown because of another

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Speaker 3: just this wasn't so much a blunder by the ATF.

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Speaker 3: It was just a blunder by the media. Yeah, because

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Speaker 3: it was a cameraman named Jim Peeler and a reporter.

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Speaker 3: He was he's all over this documentary. He stopped on

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Speaker 3: the way out there because he was tipped off. They

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Speaker 3: don't know who. Maybe a shriff, steput or somebody tipped

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Speaker 3: him off that this is going to be going down.

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Speaker 3: So he wanted to scoop so he couldn't find the compound,

347
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Speaker 3: and he stops a mail truck, a friendly mail carrier.

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Speaker 3: It's like, hey, where's this Branch Davidian compound. I think

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Speaker 3: there's a raid going on and I want to cover it.

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Speaker 3: And that mail carrier was a Branch Davidian. So he

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Speaker 3: high tailed it back there and was like, we're about

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Speaker 3: to get raided, you guys.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And so when he tells David Koresh this, we're

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Speaker 2: about to get raided. Robert Rodriguez, the undercover student who

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Speaker 2: had embedded himself as a follower who they knew was

356
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Speaker 2: a fed, he's standing right there talking to David Koresh

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Speaker 2: when the mail carrier, David Jones, runs up and tells

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Speaker 2: him they're about to get raided. So, knowing that the

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Speaker 2: element of surprise has been blown, Robert Rodriguez runs back

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Speaker 2: to the safe house to call his superiors, gets int

361
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Speaker 2: such of them and apparently is like, the surprise is blown,

362
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Speaker 2: we need to call off the raid, and the I

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Speaker 2: guess the speers were like, oh, bad, bad connection, I

364
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Speaker 2: can't hear you, see you. We're gonna go rate them now,

365
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Speaker 2: And that's essentially what happened. They carried on with the raid,

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Speaker 2: knowing full well that koresh knew they were coming, and

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Speaker 2: that apparently gave them a sense of urgency that hadn't

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Speaker 2: even been there before. And then on top of that,

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Speaker 2: one of the reasons why they planned the raid in

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Speaker 2: the first place, this big, whizbang fourth century raid with

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Speaker 2: like like a tactical team going in, was that they

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Speaker 2: were up for a budget review, congressional budget review, and

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Speaker 2: they wanted something splashy to get the attention of Congress

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Speaker 2: and be like, see, this is what you give us

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Speaker 2: money for. So they had every incentive to go in

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Speaker 2: unnecessarily roughly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. So on February twenty eighth, there were

378
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Speaker 3: seventy six armed agents that came up from Fort Hood.

379
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Speaker 3: They were obfuscated and cattle trucks. They had canvas thrown

380
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Speaker 3: over the back of these trucks hiding. Of course h

381
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Speaker 3: and them knew they were coming anyway, so it's not

382
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Speaker 3: like that mattered. And at the very beginning of this thing,

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Speaker 3: David Koresh comes to the front door, and it's on video,

384
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Speaker 3: like all the stuff you can watch happen, and eventually

385
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Speaker 3: you were watching it in real time as it played out.

386
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Speaker 3: But it's it's all over this documentary. Like Koresh comes

387
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Speaker 3: to the front door and opens it and says, hey, man,

388
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Speaker 3: there's a bunch of women and kids in here. You

389
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Speaker 3: don't want to you don't want to do this kind

390
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Speaker 3: of quickly shuts the door and goes back in and

391
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Speaker 3: all hell breaks loose. And from the descriptions I saw

392
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Speaker 3: and and just sort of watching it like rewatching it,

393
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Speaker 3: I guess it was. It was a war, like thousands

394
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Speaker 3: and thousands of rounds being exchanged.

395
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Speaker 2: Yes, And there is a lot of disagreement still today.

396
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Speaker 2: Who was the first one to shoot? Right?

397
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's the thing is. And again later

398
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Speaker 3: with the fire, you still get two completely conflicting stories

399
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Speaker 3: from each side.

400
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Speaker 2: Right, So the Branch Davidians say that the Feds fired first,

401
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 2: and the Feds obviously say the Branch Davidians fired first.

402
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Speaker 2: The thing that supports the Branch Davidians claim is that

403
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Speaker 2: there was an ATF agent who was part of the

404
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,880
Speaker 2: raid who apparently told an investigator right after the raid

405
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Speaker 2: that they may have shot first because one of the

406
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Speaker 2: agents shot a dog as they were coming into the

407
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Speaker 2: compound and that that would have set off all of

408
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Speaker 2: the shooting in general. He apparently later retracted that when

409
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Speaker 2: asked about it. But apparently the Branch Davidians also say

410
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Speaker 2: that their dogs were shot too, So it's entirely possible

411
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Speaker 2: that that's when the shooting started. It's also possible the

412
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Speaker 2: Branch Davidians started shooting first.

413
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Speaker 3: Yeah, because in their on their side, at least, this

414
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Speaker 3: is what they say. They said that the first rounds

415
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Speaker 3: that they heard as the ATF speaking, were from an

416
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Speaker 3: M six and a fifty cow rifle, and those are

417
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Speaker 3: guns that they didn't have. And I'm just reminded, didn't

418
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Speaker 3: they shoot the dogs at Ruby Ridge too?

419
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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, So, like you said, this was like a war.

420
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Speaker 2: People died here, Like I think four four agents died

421
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Speaker 2: during this raid. I mean, the Branch Davidians had like

422
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Speaker 2: massive firepower, and I think six Branch Davidians were killed

423
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Speaker 2: in the exchange as well. A bunch more were wounded.

424
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Speaker 2: David Koresh was wounded, and all of a sudden, this

425
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Speaker 2: raid had been so thoroughly botched that it became day

426
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Speaker 2: one of a fifty one day siege where the atf

427
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Speaker 2: and then eventually the FBI surrounded Mount Carmel and we're

428
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Speaker 2: trying to get the Branch Davidians to come out, and

429
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Speaker 2: the Branchavidians were like, no, we're not coming out, you guys,

430
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Speaker 2: go away.

431
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Speaker 3: Yeah. And you know, they also had the superior ground.

432
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 3: I think one of the guys that was like, you know,

433
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,199
Speaker 3: when we pulled up on this place, we were all

434
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 3: of a sudden a little shaken. He said it was

435
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 3: full of windows. He said it was the high ground.

436
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,200
Speaker 3: And he said, this is not the kind of like

437
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 3: like we were immediately at the oh what do you

438
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 3: call it. When you're at a disadvantage, that's the worst.

439
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 2: Yeh yeah, yeah, like a siege of a castle up

440
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 2: on a cliff. You're not in the best position unless

441
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 2: you're in the castle.

442
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 3: Yeah. And it also had a tower that's where Koresh's

443
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 3: bedroom was.

444
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. It was also made almost entirely of like plywood. Right,

445
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 2: there was some concrete to it, but wasn't the most part,

446
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:41,919
Speaker 2: wasn't it wood?

447
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it was huge, but it was definitely

448
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 3: one of those things that was kind of built by

449
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 3: hand over many years. Yeah, for sure. I think it

450
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 3: was a three hour gun battle, and eventually there was

451
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 3: a call from the inside to the outside where David

452
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 3: Koresh gets on the phone with an Officer Lynch and

453
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 3: he says, he says, he's Officer Lynch, and Koresh says,

454
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 3: that's kind of a funny name. And then he says,

455
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 3: this is David Koresh, the Notorious, And he said, what'd

456
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 3: you guys do that for?

457
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the I think that's the thing, Chuck, Like,

458
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,679
Speaker 2: I'm so conflicted about this is like he was genuinely

459
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 2: a bad person for sexually abusing kids. They were preparing

460
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 2: for the end of days, but at the same time,

461
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 2: he was aware enough of what they must have looked

462
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 2: like to outsiders, like a crazy cult or something like that,

463
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,919
Speaker 2: that he wasn't just like, he wasn't out of his mind.

464
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 2: It seems like at any given point in time, he

465
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 2: was just kind of like an average dude who had

466
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 2: kind of worked his way into this really unique situation

467
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 2: and then abused it in many, many different ways. But

468
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 2: he wasn't crazy. He wasn't some relig It wasn't like

469
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 2: talking to Charles Manson, Like imagine trying to negotiate with

470
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 2: Charles Manson. It was nothing like that. It was like

471
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 2: negotiating with somebody who had different views with you than

472
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 2: you that were so far out as far as religious. Yeah,

473
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:08,959
Speaker 2: this goes that even a religious negotiator wouldn't have common

474
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,919
Speaker 2: ground in that sense. Right, So they seemed crazy to

475
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 2: the FBI, even though they weren't crazy people. It's really

476
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 2: hard to get that across and not sound like an

477
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 2: apologist or like I'm crazy myself.

478
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. We should point out that Koresh was

479
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:31,199
Speaker 3: wounded in this initial gunfight, and the religious imagery was

480
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 3: not lost on his followers because he was shot through

481
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 3: the wrist and he was shot through the side. You know,

482
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 3: those were the wounds Jesus suffered on the cross and

483
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 3: he was thirty three at this point, and I think

484
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 3: most people think that's how Jesus was when he was crucified,

485
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 3: so they all think this is like, you know, supreme

486
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 3: like religious symbolism. Happening, right, Do.

487
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 2: You want to take a break and come back and

488
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 2: start talking about the siege and the negotiation attempts.

489
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, okay, okay, Chuckley.

490
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 2: So, like I said, the raid very quickly turned into

491
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 2: a fifty one day siege, which makes it very ironic

492
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 2: that one of the ATF agents was so confident that

493
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 2: the raid would be over and done with very quickly.

494
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 2: He had set up a tea time for the same

495
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 2: afternoon as the raid, and he missed the tea time obviously, because,

496
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 2: like I said, it turned into a siege at first.

497
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 2: So the FBI was on the scene almost immediately, because

498
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 2: when a federal agent is killed, the FBI investigates and

499
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 2: they're like, well, we might as well stick around, since

500
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 2: this is now a siege, we're going to take over

501
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: from the ATF. So basically, on day one, the FBI

502
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 2: took over this and their negotiators started to getting to work.

503
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 2: Apparently they had trouble finding the phone number for the compound,

504
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 2: but I think the branch Davidians called them first. Is

505
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 2: that correct?

506
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 3: I mean, I know that during the shootout they called out,

507
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:16,400
Speaker 3: but I'm not sure about afterwards.

508
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, at any rate, they were in communication on

509
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 2: the phone very very quickly, I think maybe even the

510
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 2: same day.

511
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and things were going pretty well, like negotiations were

512
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 3: going well at first, I mean, I think for front

513
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 3: and everyone's mind was let's get these kids out of here,

514
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,120
Speaker 3: because they knew there were a lot of children inside,

515
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 3: and so they were trying to get you know, Korresh

516
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 3: to agree to get the kids out. He said, yep,

517
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 3: we can do the do this two by two is

518
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 3: what he said. And he said in return, I want

519
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 3: to broadcast this hour long sermon on the Christian Broadcasting

520
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 3: Network and that'll be the swap for the kids. And

521
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 3: so they're working on this. They're trying to get everybody

522
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 3: out basically and surrendering. And on March second, it was

523
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,239
Speaker 3: almost there, like everybody was about to come out and

524
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 3: they were relenting, and then Koresh said, no, I got

525
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 3: a message from God and he told me to wait.

526
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm sure the FBI negotiator pinched the bridge

527
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 2: of his nose harder than he ever has in his life. Yeah,

528
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 2: for sure, So that that kind of did that. I

529
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 2: think more children were released after that, twenty one total

530
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 2: between the first day and the fifth of March that

531
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 2: left about twenty still remaining in there, and they started

532
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 2: negotiating for milk. I guess Kathy Schroeder, who you mentioned earlier,

533
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 2: she was on the phone with the FBI negotiator saying, Hey,

534
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 2: we need a bunch of milk for the kids, and

535
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: they're like, all right, you send out some kids and

536
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 2: we'll give you some milk. And she's like, what are

537
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 2: you talking about. Our little kids need some milk. Just

538
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 2: give us some milk. This isn't a bargaining chip. They

539
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: ended up bringing them I think six gallons of milk

540
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: three times. And I guess the branch Davidians gave them

541
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 2: proof of health and wellness by sending videotapes of the kids.

542
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think the other thing those videotapes did

543
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 3: was it sort of sent a chill through the FBI

544
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 3: because it was really clear when you watch these videotapes

545
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 3: that no one was being held hostage, nobody was being

546
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 3: held against their will. They all were believed that what

547
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 3: they were doing was right and was God's plan in

548
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 3: the end, Like Janet Reno never saw those tapes, so

549
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 3: there's a lot of speculation on what information she was

550
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 3: being fed because she'd ha been on the job for

551
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 3: like a week or two.

552
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's right, I forgot about that.

553
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 3: And so they are basically saying, like, no, they kept

554
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 3: those tapes from her because it showed a different picture

555
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 3: of what was going on inside. And he was painted

556
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 3: to her as like, you know, a sex offender illegally

557
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 3: selling guns. They killed four of ours, and it's a

558
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 3: cult that's holding like he's kind of holding all these

559
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 3: people hostage, yeah, which apparently was never the case.

560
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that was the general consensus among law enforcement.

561
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 2: This is a crazy cult, just like all the other

562
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 2: crazy cults, and that just did not fit into that

563
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 2: whole paradigm, right, And so that kind of undermines a

564
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 2: lot of what you're trying to do. And there was

565
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 2: a lot of undermining going on within the FBI itself

566
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 2: because essentially it was almost like two different branches of

567
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 2: the multiverse that were this event layered over one another

568
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 2: at once in one reality, because you had the FBI

569
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 2: negotiators who were trying to negotiate and get this resolve peacefully,

570
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 2: and simultaneously you had the FBI's hostage Rescue Team, which

571
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 2: is like the FBI's version of the swat team. Yeah, like,

572
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 2: let's just go in there and get this guy and

573
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 2: we'll just end it like that. And they kept there,

574
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 2: was like just this tension, like the negotiators would would

575
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 2: make some progress and then the hostage rescue team would

576
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 2: do something to take off the branch of idiots and

577
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 2: so that would put a kaibash on those recent negotiations.

578
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 2: And it just kept going like that.

579
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was. They weren't communicating well either. It was

580
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 3: just a real mess. At one point, they a very

581
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 3: sort of legendary criminal defense attorney in Texas was called

582
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,239
Speaker 3: by Koresh's mom and said, I need you to go

583
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 3: get my son out of there and like do this

584
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 3: in court. And so he went out there. He managed

585
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 3: to talk to the FBI and to letting him walk

586
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,479
Speaker 3: up and knock on the front door, and he went inside.

587
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 3: He's the only one who ever got inside and met

588
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 3: with Koresh and was like, hey, listen, man, I'm a

589
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 3: criminal defense attorney. My job is to look after you

590
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 3: and see that you and everyone here gets out alive

591
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 3: and that we handle this in court. He said, because

592
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 3: between you and me, they haven't done this right. And like,

593
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 3: you know, you've got a lot going in your favor,

594
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 3: and Koresh was like, all right, I trust you, but

595
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 3: what I need to do is stay in here until

596
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 3: I write. God told me to write my own version

597
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 3: of like an up book of Revelation basically, and when

598
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 3: I delivered that manuscript, I'll willingly come out.

599
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. And that was thanks to two Bible scholars, Philip

600
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 2: Arnold and James Taber, who had been following this like

601
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 2: the everybody else, at least in the United States, on

602
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 2: CNN and every news network. It was just constant, wall

603
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 2: the wall coverage. You could just get up in the

604
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 2: middle of the night and watch what was going on

605
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 2: at the siege in Waco for weeks. Right, these guys

606
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 2: had seen it, and they it became clear to them

607
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 2: that like the FBI had no idea, no touch point

608
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 2: with what the Branch Davidians believed, and that they were

609
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 2: just talking over each other. They just couldn't grasp who

610
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 2: they were dealing with. And these guys are like, we can,

611
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 2: We're Bible scholars, we understand what's going on. So I

612
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 2: guess they went on TV and we're talking about what

613
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 2: the Branch Davidians believed. Koresh saw it and he That's

614
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 2: when he was like, I need to write down my

615
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: interpretation of revelations and give it to these two who

616
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 2: can actually do something with it that are trustworthy for

617
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 2: safe keep. Yeah, so that lawyer, like you said, negotiated

618
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 2: that and Koresh was like, sure, I will come out.

619
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 2: And there I read a transcript of him talking to

620
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 2: negotiators and they're like, what does that mean though, what

621
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 2: does it mean you're going to come out? Like you

622
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 2: can come out guns blazing, you can come out two weeks,

623
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 2: ten days, one day, Like when are you going to

624
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 2: come out? And he's like, I'm going to come out

625
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 2: right after I'm done.

626
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 1: What is that like? Two weeks?

627
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 2: What does it mean you're going to come out? It's

628
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 2: like I'm going to come out and go into a

629
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 2: jail house. So it was very clear that he was

630
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 2: willing to come out after this. The FBI was like,

631
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,760
Speaker 2: we don't believe you, Like we've already you've already missed

632
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 2: deadlines left and right. This is just a stalling tactic.

633
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. So they're hearing one thing from the

634
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 3: FBI negotiators like trying to get them out peacefully. In

635
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 3: the meantime on the news and with their own eyeballs

636
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 3: out the windows. They see them pulling up with Bradley

637
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 3: fighting vehicles, like clearing obstacles and setting up a perimeter.

638
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,439
Speaker 3: So they see some of the kids get let out

639
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 3: and immediately like our kind of jumped on and having

640
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 3: all their stuff searched right in front of them. They

641
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 3: see Kathy Schroeder leave and get arrested, and like see

642
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 3: her in an orange jumpsuit on the news, and so

643
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 3: they're getting all these mixed messages. Eventually they see two

644
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 3: Abrams tanks pull up. That's the mother of all as

645
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,720
Speaker 3: I think it's the largest war vehicle in the US

646
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 3: fleet is an Abrams tank, and they at one point

647
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 3: one of the guys is Bragg and he's like, you know,

648
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 3: I could take one of these tanks and drive through

649
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 3: this house from one end to the other. And the

650
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 3: FBI negotiators said, why would you do that? Yeah, like

651
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 3: what are you even talking about? So it just kind

652
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 3: of puts a pin on like how in conflict they were.

653
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 2: Right and the FBI in general was just treating this

654
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,280
Speaker 2: like a normal hostage situation. But again, the Branch Davidians

655
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:56,399
Speaker 2: weren't hostages. They were there on purpose and I guess

656
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,839
Speaker 2: when you have a normal hostage situation, you have demands,

657
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 2: and then you also are slowly or maybe even not

658
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 2: that slowly increasing like your tactical presence, like showing up

659
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 2: with tanks. I think there were fourteen other combat vehicles

660
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 2: on site, basically showing like there's no way out of

661
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 2: this except you coming out if you want to do

662
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 2: this peacefully. And they also did a lot of tactics

663
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 2: that had been used before in normal hostage situations, which

664
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 2: was basically, you keep everybody inside from being able to sleep,

665
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 2: from being able to think, from being able to hear themselves,

666
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,479
Speaker 2: and you do that with really bright lights all night

667
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 2: and loud speakers playing all sorts of annoying stuff.

668
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, like they were. I think on March

669
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 3: twenty first, they were close to having this resolved again.

670
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 3: I think Koresh was in the final stages of his

671
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,439
Speaker 3: book of revelation, and they were negotiating, like fairly successfully

672
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 3: to get more people out. I think they got five

673
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 3: people out of March twenty first. The guy in the

674
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 3: documentary said a two dozen more were set to be released,

675
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 3: and that's when the hostage the HRT team started unilaterally

676
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 3: just making decisions like playing that music they played, these

677
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 3: boots are made for walkin twenty four hours a day.

678
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 3: They just as a complete like show of power, they

679
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 3: ran a tank over David Koresh's antique Ford Ranchero vehicle

680
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 3: in full view of everybody. So they're doing this stuff

681
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 3: to like they're purposely agitating them these people that are

682
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 3: already And one of the Davidians is like, we were

683
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 3: already Like like you think this is going to solve anything?

684
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,919
Speaker 3: To agitate us further with this music and by keeping

685
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 3: us a week awake, He's like, this could only lead

686
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 3: to tragedy.

687
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so since the FBI started buying the idea

688
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 2: that his agreement, Koresh's agreement to come out after he

689
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 2: finished this book of revelations interpretation was just stalling. They

690
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 2: went to Jane Reno and they're like, look, we have

691
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 2: this plan to go in with gas. It's not lethal gas.

692
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 2: They're not going to like it, but it'll make them

693
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 2: come out and just sign off on this. But that

694
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 2: was essentially like the premise of them going in, and

695
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 2: they basically did. But you said that one guy was

696
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 2: talking about they drove a tank through the wall at

697
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: least one wall of the compound for sure.

698
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 3: But yeah, they called in and said, hey, we're not shooting,

699
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 3: we're not coming in, but we're placing tear gas in

700
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 3: the house. Like that's what we're doing. I know, you

701
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 3: see it's coming to the house. All we're doing is

702
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 3: placing tear gas in there. It's not going to kill you.

703
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 3: It'll just irritate your eyes and skin. Because we're trying

704
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 3: to get you guys out so we can get this

705
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 3: resolved without any more bloodshed. So they fully announced they

706
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 3: were doing this. They filled the house up with tear gas.

707
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 3: There were a lot of high winds, so they think

708
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 3: it was like kind of blowing the tear gas away.

709
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 3: So that's when they rammed the tank through because they

710
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 3: thought they were kind of huddled in this bunker where

711
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 3: the tear guests couldn't get to them, and they also

712
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 3: had gas masks. So they're ramming this thing with the

713
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 3: tank at this point, and all of a sudden, you know,

714
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 3: hell kind of breaks loose again.

715
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, the place starts to catch on fire. Very importantly,

716
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:20,240
Speaker 2: this was about four hours after the tear gas was used, right,

717
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 2: So just remember that once the place caught fire, that

718
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 2: was that was essentially it. We kind of talked about

719
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 2: how it was made mostly of wood and it was

720
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 2: kind of made slipshod, it was, and it went up

721
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 2: really fast, not just because it was made of wood,

722
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,280
Speaker 2: but also they had like blocked entrances with hay bales

723
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 2: and mattresses and stuff like that. So yeah, there were

724
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 2: Coleman lanterns everywhere. There was a lot of fuel and

725
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 2: accelerant for the fire, so it went up pretty quick.

726
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think what I took from listening to

727
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 3: the people, like all the agents and everyone was they

728
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 3: all to a person said we thought, all right, they

729
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 3: got to come out now, Like they just kept waiting,

730
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:05,720
Speaker 3: like any second now, people are going to come pouring

731
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 3: out of there and we're not going to lose any

732
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 3: more life. And that didn't happen. I mean, I think

733
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 3: a handful of people came out, but everyone basically stayed

734
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,760
Speaker 3: in there, and it's sort of anyone's guess what happened

735
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 3: in there. I know Koresh was found dead from a

736
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 3: single bullet to the head and forehead, and there's a

737
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 3: lot of speculation that his number two, Steve Schneider, kind

738
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 3: of realized he was a fraud and shot him in

739
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 3: the head and then killed himself, but no one knows

740
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 3: what bullet ended up in David Koresh's forehead.

741
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you said some people, just a few

742
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 2: people rushed out of the building. There were nine people

743
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 2: who left while this building was on fire, right, Like

744
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 2: imagine like your dedication to your beliefs that you're like, no,

745
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 2: not going to leave this burning building. There were seventy

746
00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 2: five other people inside. At least twenty were kids, and

747
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 2: I think thirteen of the adults were found to have

748
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 2: fatal gun shot wounds. Two most were to the head,

749
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 2: two were in the back, which is very awful to

750
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 2: think what was going on with that. And then three

751
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 2: kids were shot to death, and I think six women

752
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 2: and children were deemed to have died of blunt force trauma,

753
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 2: and the narrative that was created around that was that

754
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 2: they were beating each other to death. Apparently, later on

755
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 2: they it was determined that they died of blunt force

756
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 2: trauma when the FBI came through with their tank and

757
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,280
Speaker 2: a bunch of concrete fell on these women and children

758
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 2: and killed them. That was where the trauma came from.

759
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 2: But that's not to say that they didn't do other

760
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 2: unspeakable things, Like we said three kids were shot. One

761
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 2: boy died of a stab wound to the chest. Like

762
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 2: there's just no other way to interpret that, you know,

763
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 2: like you don't accidentally stab a three year old to

764
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 2: the chest at when the FBI's coming through your door,

765
00:41:58,360 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 2: you know.

766
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 1: Yeah.

767
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 3: And I think that's where all the speculation comes from,

768
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 3: is like what was going on inside there. I know

769
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,320
Speaker 3: one of the guys was like shot in the stomach

770
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 3: and asked to be put out of his misery by

771
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 3: his own people, which they did. So yeah, it's just

772
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 3: I mean, I can't imagine what was going on inside

773
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 3: that place. It's horrific to think of it.

774
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 2: And I mean all this happened in minutes, you know.

775
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, once that fire started, it was pretty quick.

776
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,359
Speaker 2: The thing is is, you know, there are plenty of

777
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 2: accusations by the Branch Davidians and their supporters and critics

778
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:35,720
Speaker 2: of the federal government that the FBI actually started this fire.

779
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 2: The FBI said right off the bat, we didn't use

780
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 2: any incendiary tear gas canisters, and then three years later

781
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 2: they're like, well, we used some incendiary tear gas canisters.

782
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,240
Speaker 2: Despite that, it does not seem that the Feds started

783
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,479
Speaker 2: this fire. Remember, they used tear gas, and the fire

784
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 2: didn't start for four more hours. It started in three

785
00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 2: different places, none of which coincided with where tear gas

786
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 2: was used, so the tears almost certainly didn't do it.

787
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 2: They also had I guess they had like monitored like

788
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 2: listening devices inside, is that right.

789
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 3: I don't know.

790
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 2: I saw somewhere that they had monitoring, like they were

791
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,359
Speaker 2: monitoring them over audio, and that they had heard them

792
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 2: talking about like previously talking about lighting the place on fire.

793
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:24,240
Speaker 2: So it's almost one hundred percent certain that the branch

794
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 2: Davidians set the place on fire.

795
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, the surviving Davidians say that absolutely

796
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 3: did not happen, and it was all framed to look

797
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 3: that way. So it's and then the guy comes on

798
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 3: right after and says, well, he's a liar, so it's

799
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,240
Speaker 3: it's definitely one of those things where they're both still

800
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 3: digging in.

801
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 2: The thing that got me chuck, this really upset me

802
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 2: was after all this was done, after the fires were

803
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 2: put out and everything was like starting to get calm,

804
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:58,240
Speaker 2: somebody raised the ATF flag on the compound's flag pole.

805
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 2: They had just been conquered and I found that really awful.

806
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty awful. And like you mentioned earlier, no

807
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 3: one from the government side was brought upon charges or anything.

808
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 3: The FBI and the Clinton administration was clear to brongdoing

809
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 3: in two thousand. There was a report in nineteen ninety

810
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 3: three that was, you know, they didn't say they did

811
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 3: it right, that it was a pretty damning report about

812
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 3: the ATF raid and that became like, you know, a

813
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 3: teaching moment for any new ATF students coming in there, like, hey,

814
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 3: look how bad things can go when you really screw

815
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 3: things up. And the one big result from this was

816
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 3: it really inspired and galvanized the militia movement and right

817
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 3: wing anti government radicals. Like there's there's video footage of

818
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 3: Timothy McVeigh there he went to Waco during the fifty

819
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,720
Speaker 3: one day siege and was like selling anti government bumper

820
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 3: stickers and talking about how awful this was. And then,

821
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 3: of course, you know, on the same day, on April nineteenth,

822
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 3: two years later, carried out the Oklahoma City bombing.

823
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 2: YEH killed one hundred and sixty eight people and nineteen

824
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 2: children in as payback for Waco. And yeah, I remember

825
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 2: very clearly in the throughout the nineties, like that whole

826
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:23,760
Speaker 2: New World Order, black helicopter, FEMA, concentration camps, conspiracy theories,

827
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 2: and that was I mean Waco. To people who believed

828
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 2: in that, this was like proof positive that yes, the goverment,

829
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 2: if you had guns and you were religious, the government

830
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 2: would send a tank through your house and set it

831
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 2: on fire and kill you. So this really helped that

832
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 2: and Ruby Ridge both really fed into this end of

833
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,280
Speaker 2: the millennium paranoia that I think the X Files roaded

834
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 2: so high on.

835
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean this was less than a year

836
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 3: after Ruby Ridge, So I'm not that guy at all,

837
00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 3: but I remember being in college and all this stuff

838
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,800
Speaker 3: was going on, and it was just a real uneasy

839
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:03,919
Speaker 3: feeling in time.

840
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 1: For sure, it really was.

841
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:10,439
Speaker 2: For sure, the Branch Davidians are still around too, Chuck.

842
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 2: Did you know that although they have changed their name

843
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 2: to Branch the Lord Our Righteousness, but they're still at

844
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 2: Mount Carmel.

845
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. Nine of them were convicted. Nine of

846
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 3: the nine survivors, that is, five on voluntary manslaughter and

847
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 3: weapons charges. I think a few got weapons charges and

848
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 3: one other I don't know what the charge, but it

849
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 3: just says a lesser charge, but they're all out. They've

850
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 3: all been out since at least two thousand and seven,

851
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 3: and you know, at least the two surviving members that

852
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 3: stayed till the end, or I guess the one was arrested.

853
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 3: They're still believers and still think David Koresh was the

854
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 3: Messiah and that they were doing God's will and they

855
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 3: don't have any regrets. The one woman who got out

856
00:46:58,120 --> 00:46:59,879
Speaker 3: as she was one of the children that was really

857
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 3: just really really all of her interviews were just devastating

858
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:06,839
Speaker 3: because she's just a lost person now, you know.

859
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, she lost both of her parents.

860
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 3: Right well, her mom split once they said separate and

861
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 3: I'll start impregnating you. Her mom left him in the

862
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 3: middle of the night, but they removed her from her

863
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 3: father basically and said you can't even be with him

864
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 3: in the compound anymore.

865
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 2: Man's that whole story is just rough from beginning to end.

866
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,359
Speaker 3: Huh, Yeah, for sure, I mean there're nobody won you know.

867
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 2: No, definitely not. There's a lot more that you can

868
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 2: read about this stuff if you're interested. Be very very

869
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 2: careful who you believe in, in where your sources are,

870
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 2: because there's a lot of conspiracy theories out there, and

871
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 2: then of course there's a lot of cover up associated

872
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 2: with it too, but there's a lot more to read.

873
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:50,800
Speaker 2: This is basically just the tip of the iceberg.

874
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 3: I'll tell him about Madonna. You gotta tell him about Madonna.

875
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 2: So apparently David koresh he had a picture of Madonna

876
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 2: taped to his motor cycle and he had told one

877
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 2: of the Brench Davidian members that God had told him

878
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 2: I will give Madonna onto the So basically he was

879
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 2: just waiting for God to have Madonna come hang out

880
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 2: at the compound and he get to impregnate her too.

881
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we started out talking about George Michael and

882
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:23,240
Speaker 3: we ended up talking about Madonna.

883
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 2: Right. The funny thing is is under different circumstances, like

884
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 2: you know, he might have had a shot with early

885
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 2: nineties Madonna, he might be right. You got anything else?

886
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:37,240
Speaker 3: I got anything else?

887
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, then that's it for Brinch Davidians as far

888
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 2: as we go. And that means it's time for listener mail.

889
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 3: You know, I don't have a listener mail prepared, So

890
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 3: we just want to remind everyone once again that if

891
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 3: you are interested in getting a board to the the

892
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 3: Valiant Lady of Virgin Voyages and spending a little time

893
00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 3: with us out at sea. You can do that this fall.

894
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, October second to seventh. We're going from New York

895
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,240
Speaker 2: City to Bermuda and then back to New York City

896
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 2: and we're going to be doing a live show. Stuff.

897
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 2: They don't want you to know it's going to be

898
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 2: doing a live show. It's going to be a lot

899
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 2: of podcast centric fun on this voyage the whole time.

900
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 3: That's right, And just go to Virgin Voyages dot com

901
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 3: slash stuff and we'll see on the high seats.

902
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 1: Uh yeah.

903
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 2: And in the meantime, if you want to send us

904
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 2: an email, you can do that. Send it off to

905
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 2: Stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

906
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

907
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 3: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

908
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:42,280
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.