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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you today.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing really well. Happy Halloween you too. We're a

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Speaker 1: couple of days off, but we start. I've said this before,

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Speaker 1: we start so early, and I know you said, you

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Speaker 1: guys throw up some stuff in that you're very anti

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Speaker 1: climatic about Halloween. You're sort of like, yah, you know,

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Speaker 1: we'll answer the door and give the kids some treats,

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Speaker 1: and that's it.

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Speaker 2: There's aspects of Halloween that I could most certainly really

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Speaker 2: get into, you know, but just really have never taken

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Speaker 2: of the effort.

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Speaker 1: So I have kind of an odd internal debate that

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Speaker 1: I have with myself every Halloween for a couple of

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Speaker 1: years in a row. Tell me what you think about

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Speaker 1: this for a few years in a row. These are

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Speaker 1: not our neighbors, but they're on a major road. It's

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Speaker 1: a family that lives on the kind of a major

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Speaker 1: road that go It's near a grocery store and across

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Speaker 1: the street from like a Stoke homb place. A lot

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Speaker 1: of kids travel along it. For the last few years,

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Speaker 1: this family, as many families do, they decorate the outside

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Speaker 1: of the house for Halloween. But they've done something interesting,

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Speaker 1: which is they've sort of put up a reenactment of

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Speaker 1: a scene that was from maybe like a Friday the

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Speaker 1: thirteenth or Halloween, which you know is what I grew

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Speaker 1: up with. I mean, I'm a Halloween fan. I don't

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Speaker 1: like horror movies, but you know, I had seen the original.

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Speaker 1: But it is that scene that you and I have

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Speaker 1: actually talked about in True Detective, which is the screaming

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Speaker 1: woman who's sort of flailing on the ground and you know,

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Speaker 1: the killer coming after her, and they had made this

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Speaker 1: scene and so it is a mannequin dole kind of

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Speaker 1: thing that looks terrified and is screaming and then an

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Speaker 1: axe murderer coming after her, And there were all sorts

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Speaker 1: of complaints because it scares little kids. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is down the street from an elementary school. But it's

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Speaker 1: also a legitimate part of Halloween. It's from the generation

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Speaker 1: acts people you know who grew up with that. But

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Speaker 1: I mean it's also kind of been the True Detective

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Speaker 1: realm too, which is kind of gross. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if Halloween aged that well. Young people having sex and

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Speaker 1: then being murdered is kind of the way I summarize

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Speaker 1: a lot of those stories. So what do you think

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Speaker 1: about that? I mean, it's it's Halloween, but and you

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Speaker 1: should be festive. But at the same time, little kids

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Speaker 1: are crying and you know, but don't you have a

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Speaker 1: right to put up whatever you want as long as

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Speaker 1: it's not offensive.

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess you know. First, I've I've never seen

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Speaker 2: the movie Halloween, you know, so I can just envision, though,

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Speaker 2: exactly what you're talking about. And you know, to clarify

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Speaker 2: when you when you say you know, out of True

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Speaker 2: Detective you're talking about the true detective magazines, right magazines,

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Speaker 2: And you know, for for somebody who's worked the cases

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Speaker 2: I've worked. You know, those true detective magazines are characterized

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Speaker 2: as poorn for the sexual sadist because they literally get

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Speaker 2: off seeing women in such compromised positions, screaming, the man

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Speaker 2: holding a knife up against her, she's bound in some way,

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Speaker 2: you know, all these various permutations, and you know, on

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Speaker 2: one level it I can understand the Halloween costume. It's

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Speaker 2: in fun. You know, people kind of gravitate towards the

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Speaker 2: spooky and the ghoulish, and so I think I'm torn

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Speaker 2: about something like that, you know, because of this location.

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Speaker 2: Maybe this type of setup would be something that should

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Speaker 2: be a little bit more hidden from playing view, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I've seen some of these pretty extensive Halloween displays

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Speaker 2: for you know, trick or treaters, and people will have

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Speaker 2: like a fairly you know, tame display up front that

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Speaker 2: the little kids can walk through, and then there there'll

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Speaker 2: be a source of candy right there, and then there's

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Speaker 2: also a secondary location for the adults to go into,

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Speaker 2: and there's a sign that basically is saying graphic pass

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Speaker 2: this point. I think doing something like that maybe is

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Speaker 2: I don't want to use the term responsible because I

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Speaker 2: don't want anybody listening to think I'm.

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Speaker 1: A fuddy daddy heavily involved.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that I'm just being a fuddy daddy, But I

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Speaker 2: just think it's also you take a look at who

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Speaker 2: typically is out and about on Halloween night, and you

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Speaker 2: are dealing with five and seven year olds. Yeah, you're right,

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Speaker 2: you know, And there's reasons why we don't want young

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Speaker 2: children to have this type of imagery. But I also

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Speaker 2: don't want to, you know, go well, don't have fun either,

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Speaker 2: because everybody has, you know, has different experiences that they

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Speaker 2: want to have on Halloween. So you know, I'm kind

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Speaker 2: of torn. But I think, yeah, maybe keeping something that's

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Speaker 2: that's that graphic a little bit more out of playing

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Speaker 2: view maybe a better way to do it.

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Speaker 1: Mm hm. And you know, it's interesting because you know,

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of outrage, which I understood, but

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Speaker 1: there's so many horrible what I would say are fun

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Speaker 1: but that are a violent imagery for Halloween out there.

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Speaker 1: But it is all fake stuff. It is like ghouls

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Speaker 1: and goblins and the headless horseman holding his own head,

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Speaker 1: which I love, by the way, Like there's all that

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff that legitimately will scare you but it's

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Speaker 1: not real. It's you know, supernatural. That scene depicting some

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Speaker 1: mass murderer going after a woman that was realistic. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it didn't look like real people to me, but it

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Speaker 1: was depicting a scene that was definitely out of a

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Speaker 1: slasher film. Having a six year old see that would

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Speaker 1: be pretty awful. And the neighbors who did it really

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Speaker 1: were pissed. I mean, there's only that's the only way

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Speaker 1: I can describe it from the backlash, and they put

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Speaker 1: up a in dramatic fashion. They put up like a sheet,

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Speaker 1: like maybe several bed sheets and covered the scene from

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Speaker 1: the streets, and then they had spray painted essentially the

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Speaker 1: name of our neighborhood censored by the name of the neighborhood.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I just.

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Speaker 1: Thought, okay, so it was dramatic, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's I know, it's hard to I can

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Speaker 2: see where people would really polarize with something like that. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: where I was living in California, there's this one couple

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Speaker 2: that did this amazing dexter scene in the garage where

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Speaker 2: literally it's dexter standing over a saran wrapped body and

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Speaker 2: there's blood everywhere and everything like that. But it was

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Speaker 2: tucked back into the garage itself, you know, so you

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Speaker 2: could see as a parent walking your kids, you know,

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Speaker 2: you're going, well, I'm not taking them in there.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, absolutely, So I mean I think if

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Speaker 1: I had little kids, i'd be kind of offended too,

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Speaker 1: for sure. But then I look back and I go,

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Speaker 1: I love that kind of movie. But then I thought, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it just didn't age well, especially when you and I.

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Speaker 1: I was just telling my class this today about the

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Speaker 1: true crime Detective and you telling me that, you know,

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Speaker 1: some of the most well known serial killers were found

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Speaker 1: with these magazines and what that really means. And so yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, that's the part of Halloween that

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Speaker 1: I think can be really touchy for people. No, for sure,

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Speaker 1: So you know, let's scare the shit out of little kids,

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Speaker 1: but in a different way maybe right now, save the

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Speaker 1: horror films for later. And this was up for several

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Speaker 1: weeks before Halloween even started, so of course, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: they were milking it for sure. But then hopefully nobody's

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Speaker 1: offended by my pal back here, the one who's desperately

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Speaker 1: still hoping that Victorian chairs are comfortable, which they aren't.

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Speaker 1: So if you see me shifting around. If you've ever

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Speaker 1: noticed me shift around in this chair, probably about three

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Speaker 1: quarters through basically every episode we've ever done. It's because

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Speaker 1: my left butt cheek has fallen asleep because the chair

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Speaker 1: needs to be somehow updated. But yeah, I feel bad.

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Speaker 1: I see why the Victorians could be so uptight.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, when I was having a lot of

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Speaker 2: pain in my left hip, I was using one of

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Speaker 2: those to me it looks like like a hemorrhoid pillow.

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Speaker 2: You know, just saw it was softer and that would

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Speaker 2: avoid some of the pain versus. Now my hip is better,

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Speaker 2: so you know, I don't have to have that hemoroy

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Speaker 2: pillow underneath me anymore.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe we were talking about this. We went

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Speaker 1: from from Jason and Michael Myers to hemorrhoy pillars. That

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Speaker 1: was a good transmission. Well, I promised you a spookier story,

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna have spooky stories here because this is

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Speaker 1: a lot of missing people and we're trying to sort

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Speaker 1: out who's responsible on what is happening where. This is

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Speaker 1: also a spooky time period eighteen seventies in the Midwest.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that's a spooky area for you,

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Speaker 1: but I am scared of vast open spaces. Also, I'm

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Speaker 1: scared of the countryside and the best open spaces. What

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Speaker 1: am I not scared? I guess by the ocean. And

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Speaker 1: so this is this is the Midwest in the eighteen seventies,

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Speaker 1: and it's a little bit of a Halloween story.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, I'm looking forward to it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's set the scene. We are in eighteen seventy three,

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Speaker 1: it's May sixth, and we are outside of a wooden

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Speaker 1: cabin on the front tier. This part of the frontier

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Speaker 1: is fourteen miles east of Independence in Kansas and a

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Speaker 1: half a mile south east of a couple of places

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Speaker 1: that I've never even heard of before. And so we

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Speaker 1: are in what they would say then was Indian Territory,

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Speaker 1: which is a very treacherous place. And it's not because

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Speaker 1: of those oceage Native Americans, but rather all of these

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Speaker 1: criminals and fugitives that have run from the East coast

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Speaker 1: out to you know, the frontier to escape justice. So

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Speaker 1: already we're in kind of a lawless area to begin with,

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Speaker 1: and we're at this cabin and we have a really

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Speaker 1: it's a small space, and the reason is because on

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Speaker 1: the frontier prairies. The lumber is really scarce, and so

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Speaker 1: everything was, you know, very small. When I was in

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Speaker 1: Cape Cod a couple of months ago with my family,

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Speaker 1: we stayed in an eighteenth century home and my kids

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Speaker 1: kept saying, to the seilings are so low. And I

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Speaker 1: and you and I had discussed this before, where you know,

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Speaker 1: I thought, oh, maybe the men were a shorter stature

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Speaker 1: back then, and I know that that can happen. But

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Speaker 1: I had a listener emailed man. What she said makes sense,

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Speaker 1: which is just the lack of resources meant that they

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Speaker 1: were not going to make tall ceilings in the seventeen

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Speaker 1: hundreds potentially, and so you know, they made them just

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Speaker 1: tall enough. So anyway, this is a small cabin. The

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Speaker 1: family that lives there squeezes into about four hundred square

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Speaker 1: feet and they're using half of the cabin as a storefront,

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Speaker 1: which is pretty interesting. So they took a canvas wagon

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Speaker 1: cover and divided the space into two different rooms. And

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you about the family in a bit, because

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Speaker 1: they're in trouble. They're missing, and you know, the cabin,

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Speaker 1: the front part of the cabin, just to give us

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Speaker 1: some context, like I said, is a general store and

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Speaker 1: what The kind of business they built was just, you know,

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Speaker 1: something that was very profitable in this time because you

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Speaker 1: have so many people who are just pushing west, literally

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Speaker 1: pushing wet, and so you have all of these homesteaders

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Speaker 1: and frontiersmen who needed to buy supplies and provisions, and

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Speaker 1: they want tobacco and they can get all of it

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Speaker 1: from this particular store. And it's on the what's called

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Speaker 1: the Osage Trail, and they could also grab dinner there

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Speaker 1: if they wanted to. So a remote space and I

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Speaker 1: wanted to show it to you, and so there are

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Speaker 1: quite a few for eighteen seventy one. There are a

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Speaker 1: decent amount of photos for this story, and so this

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Speaker 1: might be a good time to just show you because

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Speaker 1: we do have a missing family. How remote we're talking

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Speaker 1: about here. So the first photo and the second photo

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Speaker 1: only check it out and you could see this is

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Speaker 1: the cabin. First one's a you know, kind of a

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Speaker 1: closer up shot so you can kind of just see

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Speaker 1: the size, and these are locals who are around the

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Speaker 1: cabin because it does turn into a pretty bad crime scene.

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Speaker 1: And then you'll see the second one, which is a

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Speaker 1: sketch and a depiction. I just wanted you see the

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Speaker 1: wideness of what we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: You know, this cabin looks like it's just on open planes.

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Speaker 2: You know, if there's any vegetation, it's looks like it's

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Speaker 2: you know, weeds and grass. Yeah, no trees anywhere in sight. Really,

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Speaker 2: the cabin itself, you know, this is a you know,

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Speaker 2: it's a single story, gable roof. I mean, it's hard

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Speaker 2: to call it a house. It's tiny. I'm shocked about that.

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Speaker 2: How many different products that they are selling out of this,

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Speaker 2: But yeah, no, it is definitely remote, and it looks

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Speaker 2: like you can see in any direction all the way

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Speaker 2: to the horizon. There's no hills, nothing that's really blocking it.

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Speaker 2: And then the you know, the sketch just shows the

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Speaker 2: cabin with maybe a few other structures and then horses

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Speaker 2: and various you know people, I'm assuming you know that

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Speaker 2: are you know along this what is o Sage Trail,

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Speaker 2: you know, passing through So you know immediately, you know,

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Speaker 2: of course remoteness is is signific and then the transient

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Speaker 2: nature of the population at this location, you know, because

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Speaker 2: people are just constantly flowing along the trail.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so for me, when I think about the

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Speaker 1: dust bowl, that will happen decades later. This shows why

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Speaker 1: it would happen. Yeah, you know, with no vegetation, dry dirt,

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Speaker 1: drought conditions, massive winds coming in and creating like a

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Speaker 1: cyclone effect. Nothing in this scene feels grounded to me,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean just like, oh, gust of wind

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Speaker 1: could knock over this whole little homestead here.

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Speaker 2: Well, and I look at this and if I were,

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Speaker 2: you know, somebody that was looking for a place to live,

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Speaker 2: it wouldn't be here, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'm glad that Allison are crack researcher on

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Speaker 1: this one found the photos because I had pictured off

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Speaker 1: a trail just rows of trees and kind of in

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Speaker 1: a forested area at places where people could sneak around

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Speaker 1: and jump the family and stuff. And no, there's nowhere

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Speaker 1: to hide with this. You know, they are literally coming

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Speaker 1: down almost like a desert stopping. And there's a sign

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Speaker 1: that's not there anymore that say groceries. So when you're

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Speaker 1: talking about being vulnerable, as this family would be, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're in this open space. You are advertising that you

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Speaker 1: have items that are valuable, and maybe you have some guns,

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Speaker 1: but with enough people if they show up, if you've

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Speaker 1: got a gang of criminals show up here. This family's

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Speaker 1: wiped out almost instantly. There's four people living here, So

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Speaker 1: there's Elvira, and you've got John Senior, and then Kate

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Speaker 1: and John Junior, and those are their adult children. So

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Speaker 1: you've got four people in let's just say two hundred

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Speaker 1: square feet, which this cottage is, you know, a little

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Speaker 1: less than two hundred square feet, and then you've got

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Speaker 1: the storefront. I don't know how much the storefront is,

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Speaker 1: but man, this is isn't ironic all of that space

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Speaker 1: and because of a lack of lumber, they have to

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Speaker 1: make this little tiny house. They're the only ones around

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Speaker 1: for miles and miles and miles.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's also no services. Do you think about it?

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Speaker 2: Do you know something happens to this family? Where's law

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Speaker 2: enforcement coming from? How far away is law enforcement or

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Speaker 2: any neighbors really to be able to help out the people.

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Speaker 1: Who come across this, You know they're alarmed. Because again

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Speaker 1: we always come back to the I always use the

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Speaker 1: same example of the woman who left the laundry out

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Speaker 1: overnight and it rained and she didn't bother to come

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Speaker 1: pick it up. Something's happened to that woman. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's how we know. And in this time period, people

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Speaker 1: were very alarmed because they had cattle roaming loose all

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Speaker 1: over the property. I didn't see it, but there's apparently

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Speaker 1: some kind of fencing that's up, okay, you know, to

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Speaker 1: keep the cattle in. They do have cattle. It looks

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Speaker 1: like they've been unfed for at least several days and

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Speaker 1: without vegetation. I assume it's grain that they had to buy,

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Speaker 1: so you know, these are starving cattle. And so that's

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Speaker 1: what makes this really alarming for neighbors. They said that

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Speaker 1: the cabin had either the people had been taken or

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Speaker 1: they had left very quickly. There's half eaten food and

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Speaker 1: mugs of coffee on the table still okay. There's pots

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Speaker 1: and pans that are on the stove like they had

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Speaker 1: been cooking. Utensils are scattered all over the floor. There

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Speaker 1: are insects everywhere. There's clothing all over the place, furniture's overturned.

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Speaker 1: That grocery sign has been pulled down. And this is

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Speaker 1: bad news, I think for this family in this remote area,

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Speaker 1: when you're surrounded by hostility all over the place.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, the disruption to the inside, that's

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Speaker 2: where I'm wondering is this the result of ransacking somebody's

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Speaker 2: in there looking for something? Was there combat? Was there

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Speaker 2: a fight? You know, some of that attributed to, you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe the family resisting being abducted, if that's what happened,

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Speaker 2: with the cattle being unfed for several days. Once the

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Speaker 2: discoverers get there, I mean, the trail is cold at

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Speaker 2: this point, you know, because it happened several days prior.

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Speaker 1: And you have to think, I don't know how popular

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Speaker 1: this trail is, but you have to be a good

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Speaker 1: planner to follow along this trail because it could be

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Speaker 1: hundreds of miles before you see one of these like

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Speaker 1: we talked about way stations, you know, in one of

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Speaker 1: our other stories, where you know it's predictable. It's like

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Speaker 1: seeing the gas in ten miles sign up on the highway.

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Speaker 1: So you have to know what you're doing if there

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Speaker 1: are people coming in and attacking this family that's really vulnerable.

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Speaker 1: There are two adult children I had mentioned, and by

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Speaker 1: adult I mean twenties, you know, very early twenties. And

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Speaker 1: I don't know who's armed there or not, But like

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Speaker 1: I said, it just didn't seem like it would be

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Speaker 1: a stretch to have even a few people be able

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Speaker 1: to come, and I don't know what the motivation is

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Speaker 1: to take them or if they've been killed, and they're

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Speaker 1: very different places. I guess we don't know yet. I

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Speaker 1: just have to kind of give you some more information.

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Speaker 2: Well, also with the you know, the family itself, but

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Speaker 2: also the storefront, there needs to be a regular delivery

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Speaker 2: of product, you know, so that's also somebody that is

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Speaker 2: going to be flowing through here. You know, how far

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Speaker 2: away are they from the nearest town? Are they going

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Speaker 2: someplace to get to restock their store, or is somebody

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Speaker 2: actually you know drive, you know, using a horse drawn

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Speaker 2: wagon to do deliveries.

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Speaker 1: Well, it says fourteen miles east of Independence, but there

349
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:47,359
Speaker 1: are half a mile southeast of Moorhead Station in Lubbott County, Okay.

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Speaker 1: So there are half a mile from something that has

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Speaker 1: a name, but where they are doesn't really have a name.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of like Indian territory, quote unquote is what

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Speaker 1: I see. So that's how remote they are. But again,

354
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Speaker 1: you know, o in spaces like that, there's almost like

355
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Speaker 1: where where are you going to run? But they obviously

356
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,160
Speaker 1: have been able to build a business. But I will

357
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Speaker 1: say that this area has really spooked to people for

358
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Speaker 1: a long time. Along this trail, there have been quite

359
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Speaker 1: a few people who have gone missing. And I don't

360
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,359
Speaker 1: mean specifically right in this area. You know where the

361
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Speaker 1: cabin is, but it's just been people who have said,

362
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Speaker 1: I'm going to go on the Osage Trail. We've talked

363
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Speaker 1: about this before. You know, it is not unusual. It's

364
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Speaker 1: like going out to see It's not unusual to not

365
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 1: see a loved one for weeks or even months at

366
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Speaker 1: a time when they are pushing west and trying to

367
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Speaker 1: find new territory and everything is brand new and they

368
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Speaker 1: don't know what's around the corner. So it wouldn't have

369
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Speaker 1: been unusual for somebody to go missing for a while

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Speaker 1: and then they pop right back up.

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Speaker 2: Yeap, I could see that. And I can also see

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Speaker 2: where this is a built in victim pool if you will,

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Speaker 2: for people that you know, whether you want to say

374
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 2: they have financial motive, you know robbers, you know they'll

375
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Speaker 2: start picking off people as they're going along this trail.

376
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Speaker 2: Wouldn't be surprised if you have, you know, predators that

377
00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:15,280
Speaker 2: are sexually assaulting and killing. You know, some of these travelers,

378
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Speaker 2: predators go to where the praise at and here you

379
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,399
Speaker 2: have prey that are just in many ways going to

380
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Speaker 2: be helpless. They might be armed, but everybody was armed

381
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Speaker 2: back back in this day.

382
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Speaker 1: Now we have a little bit of a jumpy timeline,

383
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 1: but I think you can keep up with me here. Okay,

384
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,439
Speaker 1: about I would say a month earlier, this is where

385
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,639
Speaker 1: they start thinking about the different disappearance and discoveries in

386
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Speaker 1: this area that could be tied to the missing family.

387
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,719
Speaker 1: So about a month earlier, there is a wagon found

388
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:54,439
Speaker 1: and a starving team of horses, one of which was lame.

389
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Speaker 1: This wagon had been found about twelve miles north toward

390
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,400
Speaker 1: they er. There were no bodies found, but this was suspicious.

391
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,919
Speaker 1: People in this area, certainly in the Frontier, would not

392
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:09,600
Speaker 1: abandon a wagon and certainly perfectly good horses. So they

393
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,160
Speaker 1: assumed that somebody had been taken. And we're still trying

394
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,800
Speaker 1: to figure out who owns that wagon. But you know,

395
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,119
Speaker 1: that was over two years starting in seventy one. This

396
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 1: was sort of the similar circumstances to what has happened before.

397
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:27,200
Speaker 1: So a few days before that wagon was discovered, there

398
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:31,160
Speaker 1: are a pair of brothers who are concerned about their

399
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 1: missing brother and they are actually well known. So Colonel

400
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: Alexander York and his brother Ed York had traced the

401
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 1: disappearance of their brother along this trail. He was named

402
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 1: doctor William York. They knew that he had stopped at

403
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 1: the house, he had eaten a meal there, he had

404
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 1: watered his horse, he bought some provisions, and then he

405
00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: took off and no one had seen or heard from

406
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,280
Speaker 1: him since. And then, of course we can't ask the

407
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 1: family because the family's not there either. His brothers and

408
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,679
Speaker 1: his pregnant wife and his three children are in a

409
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,280
Speaker 1: neighboring county, and they're very nervous because they don't know

410
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 1: what happened, but they do know that, you know, he

411
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:18,879
Speaker 1: had ridden away after spotting the loose cattle. The people

412
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 1: on the prairie had assembled like a search party that

413
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,879
Speaker 1: had been led by a guy named Sergeant Leroy Dick,

414
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 1: who was a Civil War veteran, and he was a

415
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 1: township officer, which is about as close as a you know,

416
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 1: to a sheriff as you're going to get. He divided

417
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,919
Speaker 1: the party into three groups. One group explored the stables

418
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 1: of this family, so this would be John and Elvira's stables,

419
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 1: kind of where the cattle and the horses would have been.

420
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:48,720
Speaker 1: And then another group patrols spill out and drum creeks

421
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 1: on the land. And then a third group, which includes

422
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,640
Speaker 1: the sergeant, searches the cabin. So you've got these three

423
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 1: groups working kind of at the same time. So the

424
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 1: group with the cabin reports this. They find a dozen

425
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 1: bullet holes that have speckled the roof in the sides

426
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 1: of the cabin, so somebody has shot. You know, there

427
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:14,120
Speaker 1: are dozens of a dozen bullet holes there. And they

428
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 1: find a bloodstained knife with a four inch tapered blade,

429
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 1: and it was in the mantle clock, so you know

430
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 1: the clock that's sitting on the mantle, and it sounds really,

431
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 1: really chaotic. So you've got, you know, guns and knives

432
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: at a minimum here and wedged behind the grocery counter

433
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 1: is a horse bridle and at York, who is the

434
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: brother of doctor William Yorke, says that was his brother's

435
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 1: horse bridle. Now, I mean, I didn't know that horse

436
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 1: bridles could be that distinct. I don't see anything about

437
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 1: initials or anything. But at York, who happens to be there, says,

438
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 1: this is my brother's bridle, and it's behind the counter

439
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 1: of the grocery.

440
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 2: So doctor William York his horse bridle is actually fa

441
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 2: somewhat hidden inside of this cabin, like somebody's trying to

442
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 2: tuck it away. Yep.

443
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: And then you've got the bloody knife that's inside the

444
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: mantle clock. And then you've got bullet holes, a dozen

445
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,360
Speaker 1: bullet holes in the roof and the sides of the cabin.

446
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,360
Speaker 1: And then here's where things get kind of a graphic

447
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: to me. There's a bad odor that pervades the room,

448
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 1: and the searcher's sergeant Dick says, it's really particularly coming

449
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 1: from a trapdoor, which is concealed by a straw mattress.

450
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,919
Speaker 1: Trapdoor is not unusual, of course, especially in you know,

451
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: it would be for the Midwest in the eighteen hundreds,

452
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,199
Speaker 1: and people would store stuff down there. Blah blah. You know,

453
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: this is not anything odd. So they move the mattress

454
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: and the search party prize open the door, and this

455
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 1: is an awful stench that they all recognize is death.

456
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: The joists beneath the trap door are stained with what

457
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 1: appears to be blood. The door reveals a small cellar room.

458
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: It is six feet deep seven feet square to the

459
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 1: top and three feet square at the bottom. I don't

460
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: even know what math that is. That's enough for a body, right,

461
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: the six feet part for sure?

462
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no for multiple bodies.

463
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 1: So without ventilation they can't, I mean, nobody's going in

464
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: that cellar because it's disgusting and smelly. It's too strong,

465
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 1: and they're vomiting. So they set up a pulley system

466
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: and they place the cabin on log rollers and tie

467
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 1: it to a horse and pull the structure aside. I

468
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: mean ingenuity. It's like the It's like the cop with

469
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 1: the magnets on a string try to fish out a

470
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: weapon in a river.

471
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 2: It's like the FBI collecting the unibimber's cabin.

472
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: I mean, so they shove this little cabin to the

473
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: side using these horses, even with the breeze. The rants

474
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: at air leads two men to vomit, and you know,

475
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,360
Speaker 1: I know, you've dealt with a lot of dead bodies

476
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: and a lot of different, you know, stages of decomposition.

477
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: My first real, real experience was when I went to

478
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 1: the quote unquote body farm at Texas State University to

479
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 1: you know, interview the head of the forensic anthropology program

480
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 1: there and He took me to the outside area where

481
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: the bodies were buried and doing research, and he said,

482
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 1: you know, I know this is weird, but it's like

483
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: we solve crimes here, you know, we teach people forensics here.

484
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: And there were students testing the temperature of the bodies

485
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: based on how deep they were buried. There were bodies

486
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 1: that had cages on them because the people had requested

487
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 1: that they didn't want, you know, vultures or deer or

488
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: anybody to have access except for the bugs and stuff.

489
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: And they were building a small house in which they

490
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 1: were going to put a body in to show a

491
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 1: law enforcement agency, a federal and I can't remember who

492
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: was the FBI or who it was what it would

493
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 1: be like if you burned down a house with a

494
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: body inside. And so they were doing real work. But

495
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 1: you know, it was a hundred and three degrees and

496
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: I was walking around and even exposed, it was so

497
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: distinctive I couldn't even He said, oh, you're going to

498
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: get used to it. I did not get used to it,

499
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 1: I can tell you that, but you know, it was

500
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,199
Speaker 1: a good learning experience. But it is a distinctive smell,

501
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 1: especially when there's decomposition there.

502
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 2: You know, it definitely is. I mean it's something that

503
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 2: I immediately recognize. And I've been on scenes that are really

504
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 2: really bad in terms of the decomp and the circumstances,

505
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 2: or even at the morgue. You know, I would say

506
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,959
Speaker 2: the worst and I'm not going to get I mean,

507
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 2: it's not graphic. It's just that we had to zoom

508
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 2: up a homicide victim that had been found floating in

509
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 2: the Sacramento River delta and his head and hands had

510
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 2: been cut off, and then he had been weighed down

511
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 2: in the water, but he was literally bobbing at the

512
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 2: surface and he had been buried, I don't know for

513
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 2: ten plus years at least, and his body was buried

514
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 2: below the water table in the ground, and so he

515
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 2: continued to soak in water while he was in the ground.

516
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 2: So he was exhumed. And I remember driving to work

517
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 2: that morning and I was blocks away from where my

518
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: office was, which was just above the morgue, and I

519
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 2: could start smelling him that far away. Oh my god,

520
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 2: it was and it was it was powerful, you know now,

521
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 2: I mean the smell is is something that you just

522
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 2: I mean, you get used to. You have to deal

523
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 2: with it. You know, I always laugh if you watch

524
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,479
Speaker 2: Silence of the Lambs and you have Jodie Foster Clarice

525
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 2: Starling going into where there's this you know body that

526
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 2: they've recovered, and her and her you know, coworkers are

527
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 2: putting you know, Vic's vapor rub underneath their nostrils, and

528
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 2: it was just like, oh, nope, nope, not going to

529
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 2: do it. You and and quite frankly, you'll be ridiculed.

530
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 2: You're showing weakness. There's a certain aspect to where you

531
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 2: just have to suck it up and deal.

532
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: You know, I'm going to tell what you could expect,

533
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: which is clouded bloodstains in the cellar floor. And there's

534
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: a narrow passageway that leads under where the house had

535
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: been into the backyard, vegetable garden and apple orchard. So

536
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: you know, you've got these places where bodies can be.

537
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: They had, you know, have this awful smell, but no

538
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: bodies when they pulled out the house. But they now

539
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: see this passageway that goes to the orchard and the

540
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: vegetable garden. So now are we I mean, where do

541
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: you stand with this? It's a big mystery and you

542
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: probably don't even have enough information, But you've got a

543
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: missing family, a wagon that's been abandon a month earlier.

544
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:39,959
Speaker 1: There's all kinds of pieces.

545
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 2: You see.

546
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: This is why our Halloween, this is what our Hellen

547
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: Special gets us into.

548
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 2: Well, I think that you know, first just from the

549
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 2: crime seed of the house, you've got these, you know,

550
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 2: twenty bullet holes in the roof and the side of

551
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 2: the cabin. You know, I'm kind of curious. Are those

552
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 2: bullet holes all being shot from within the cab been

553
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 2: going out? Are they being shot from outside the cabin

554
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 2: going in? Or do you have a combination of both,

555
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 2: Like maybe you have a gunfight going on with the

556
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 2: fenders on the outside of the cabin and you have

557
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 2: the family trying to ward them off. But obviously they

558
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 2: have at least a dead body that some of the

559
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 2: blood and who knows if there's decomf fluid soaks down

560
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 2: from let's say the trapdoor area onto the choice and

561
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 2: then that body was in this little cellar room for

562
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 2: a period of time, decomposed one hundred and three degrees outside,

563
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 2: you know, very warm area, so probably you know, started

564
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 2: to bloat and and give off the decomp smell fairly quickly.

565
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 2: And then somebody came back and moved that body, you know,

566
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 2: so that what they're smelling is the remnants, you know,

567
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: the decomposing you know, fluids that are still in the

568
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 2: cellar room, but the body isn't there. You now, why

569
00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 2: would somebody feel compelled to do that? So that's you know,

570
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 2: one of the questions. And then the other thing is

571
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 2: is this connection to the missing doctor William Yorke and

572
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 2: the horse bridle, So that would suggest that there is

573
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 2: a connection between those two.

574
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: Cases also kind of once we get deeper into this,

575
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody would be surprised about a trapdoor.

576
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: I certainly don't think anybody would be surprised about a

577
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: passageway leading from you know, the basement area storage area

578
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: to an orchard or a garden, because that's just the

579
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: way these were built in some ways. You know, It's

580
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: obviously it's an easy passage where you can kind of

581
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: just shove you know, food down, and you're not holding

582
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: things all over the place. These were practical people, so

583
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 1: and you know they were raising animals and farming and

584
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: all of that kind of stuff. So don't be suspicious

585
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: of that if you were in any way, No, not

586
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: at all so Ed York is, I mean, this is

587
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: so unfortunate. He's searching for his brother and they go

588
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: over to the apple orchard. We've had stories about, you know,

589
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: things happening in apple orchards before. And he has a

590
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 1: metal wagon rod and he's probing the earth and it

591
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: hits something just a few feet below the surface. There's

592
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: a body and it does turn out to be doctor

593
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: William York, who's buried in this orchard. And I mean,

594
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 1: how awful for his brother to find him there. Here's

595
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: the condition. Doctor York was buried face down, he was

596
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: only wearing his underwear. The back of his head was

597
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: smashed in, his throat had been slashed ear to ear.

598
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: And when the search party exhumes the body he sees

599
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: what he says is clearly, you know, a death by

600
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: blood force trauma, although my guess is that the slashing

601
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: from ear to ear could have just as easily done it.

602
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,719
Speaker 1: The investigator finds some hammers and they are beneath the

603
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: cabin stove. And I wanted you to see the hammers.

604
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: So there's a shoehammer. I had never seen one three

605
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: inch claw hammer. I've seen one, and a handmade five

606
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: and a half pound sledge hammer sounds petrifying.

607
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 2: I'm looking at it, so I'm what I'm looking at

608
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 2: is what appears to be a glass display cabinet, so

609
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 2: I'm assuming this is like a museum somewhere. And then

610
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 2: you have these three hammers that are inside a blue box,

611
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 2: and they're mounted in this blue box. And you know

612
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 2: these hammers, you know, i'd say, there's a small, medium,

613
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 2: and large one. You know, you see the on the

614
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 2: left hand side, you see a small hammer with a

615
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 2: very you know, narrow face and short claws. And then

616
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 2: on the right side you see a medium sized hammer

617
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 2: that has a very large face and then just a

618
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 2: single claw, if you will. And then in between those

619
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 2: two hammers is the one I'm gonna say as large,

620
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 2: which is a you know, short handled sledge hammer. And

621
00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 2: all three of these weapons are capable of inflicting pretty

622
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 2: significant damage to a person, with of course the sledge

623
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 2: hammer being able to inflict the most damage just due

624
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 2: to its sheer size and weight.

625
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: I went down a pretty weird rabbit hole thinking about

626
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 1: these three hammers and what were the I mean, I'm

627
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 1: sure I'm not the only one who thinks like this,

628
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: but like, what would inflict the most damage versus what's

629
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: the easiest to use and conceal. You know, is it

630
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 1: like the small pointing hammer which could really pierce, or

631
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 1: is it the blunt of this sledgehammer. And then I said,

632
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,879
Speaker 1: Halloween needs to be away with sooner rather than later

633
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 1: for me thinking bad thoughts here.

634
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 2: No, But you know, let's say on doctor Yorke's skull.

635
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,879
Speaker 2: You know, if these hammers had been used, there's some

636
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 2: distinctive features of each of these hammers. So you might,

637
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 2: let's say all three had been used on the back

638
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 2: of his head, but there's also blows on other parts

639
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,040
Speaker 2: of his head. You might be able to tie I

640
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 2: select wounds and skull fractures to each of these hammers.

641
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 1: Well from your mouth to someone's ear. That's what they did.

642
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 1: So there was a round wound on the back of

643
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: doctor Yorke's head, and they said it matched perfectly to

644
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: the shoehammer, okay, which was the medium one that you

645
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: had mentioned, so you know, as a very round head.

646
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: The search party loads doctor York into a coffin, then

647
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: puts them on the wagon and the searchers are talking.

648
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: And this is where the experience that you and I

649
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 1: have talked about over and over again, people who know

650
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 1: the area, and especially people who know the history of

651
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: the area, who have been there a long time. You know,

652
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,760
Speaker 1: like the case of the serial killer who was caught

653
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 1: because someone in Canada recognized, you know, a crime that

654
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 1: sounded very similar to what happened in I think it

655
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: was Vermont. You know, this one guy made the connection,

656
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: a judge made the connection, and so that's kind of

657
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: what happens here. So the surge party is standing around

658
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: and one of them says, Okay, this reminds me of

659
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 1: the wagon that no one believes is some innocent wagon

660
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 1: with perfectly good horses that has been abandoned. But they said,

661
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 1: this is even weirder. So in May of eighteen seventy one,

662
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: so this is two years earlier, two little boys discovered

663
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 1: the body of a guy named William Jones in Drum Creek,

664
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,439
Speaker 1: which is around this property, and they said that there

665
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 1: were distinctive wagon wheel tracks that had been found near

666
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: the body. One of the back wheels was they said,

667
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 1: dished the wrong way. And then they concluded why, which

668
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 1: is that it had been carrying a load that was

669
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: way too heavy and the load had been shifted and

670
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: it kind of twisted the wheel again historical context, That's

671
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 1: not something I would have thought of. And so they said,

672
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: they've got this distinctive track, we know exactly what caused it,

673
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 1: but no luck, they couldn't find who it was. Again

674
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: they're on this remote trail in the middle of nowhere.

675
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,959
Speaker 1: Then we've got about let's say, seven months later, no

676
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: longer than that February of eighteen seventy two, after the

677
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 1: snow thawed around Drum Creek where William Jones was found,

678
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: the body of a guy named John Philps was found.

679
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: But they weren't getting a ton of forensic if you

680
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 1: could even call it that information, because wild Hoggs had

681
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 1: mutilated his remains, so it was difficult to figure out

682
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 1: the cause of death. But I guess it could have

683
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: been suicide or starvation, but they didn't know. But his father,

684
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 1: of course, was convinced that he was murdered. But no

685
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: one's connecting it to the cabin. They're just these are

686
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:40,919
Speaker 1: people who are found on These two guys were found

687
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,839
Speaker 1: on the property, so so far, Now what do you think.

688
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 1: Now we're talking about you know, doctor Yorke, and then

689
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 1: you're talking about William Jones, you know, in Drum Creek,

690
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 1: which is very close by, and then you've got this guy,

691
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 1: John Phipps. But they're spread out, they're years.

692
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 2: Apart, and this is just where what is what is

693
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 2: the I guess the typical pattern of crime or deaths

694
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 2: in this particular area. So because that's that's critical for

695
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 2: an investigator to go, Okay, hold on, I remember these

696
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 2: cases from two years ago, you know, but I imagine,

697
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 2: you know, in the wild West or in this period

698
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 2: of time, there's probably a lot of accidental deaths. There's exposure,

699
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,240
Speaker 2: you know, deaths. Somebody's out there working in the field

700
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,919
Speaker 2: and isn't hydrating and ends up dying. So it's hard

701
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 2: to say that there's anything conclusive about these two bodies,

702
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 2: you know, William Jones and John Philps to say that

703
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 2: it's related. I think William Jones is interesting just from

704
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 2: the what appears to be the presence of awake and

705
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 2: that they're convinced is somehow related to his death. And

706
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 2: you fast forward to two years and then you have

707
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 2: doctor William Yorke, and then you have the family Elvira

708
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 2: John and their two adult children who are just missing.

709
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:06,439
Speaker 2: And then doctor york Is found literally buried on their property. Yeah,

710
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 2: so I think it's possible that you have And I'm

711
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 2: just going to use the term predator very loosely. I'm

712
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 2: not connotating that I'm dealing with a sexually motivated predator,

713
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 2: but I think it suggests that you have somebody who

714
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,280
Speaker 2: is preying on people in this area over the course

715
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 2: of several years potentially. And then what is that person's motive.

716
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 2: You know, doctor William york has found it just in

717
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,240
Speaker 2: his underwear. Well, is that because there's a sexual aspect

718
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 2: to this or is that because the offender needed a

719
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 2: change of clothes for one reason or another and took

720
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,760
Speaker 2: those or utilized Now I mean I was going to say,

721
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,240
Speaker 2: you know, is this a way to further control doctor

722
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 2: Yorke by rendering him an essence naked outside of his underwear.

723
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 2: I think that's less likely. I think the offender possibly

724
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 2: just needed his clothes, maybe to dress up in something

725
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 2: else than what he'd been seen in previously. But even

726
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 2: though it's a male victim, it doesn't eliminate the possibility

727
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 2: that there's a sexual motive. So right now, I think

728
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 2: I'm wide open. I just think it does sound like

729
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 2: somebody is preying on people in this area, and they

730
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 2: took over the commandeer to the cabin. Seems like they

731
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 2: had doctor Yorke with them when they did comment deer

732
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 2: that cabin, and chances are the family is dead and

733
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 2: buried either in the same apple orchard or somewhere else.

734
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 1: So I messed up one date, okay, so and let

735
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: me just and it actually I don't think is going

736
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 1: to make a difference, but the body count is different.

737
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 1: So in May of eighteen seventy one, that's when they

738
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: find William Jones, and that's the weird wagon tracks, and

739
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,359
Speaker 1: that's in Drum Creek. Then in February of eighteen seventy two,

740
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 1: the snow had started to thaw and they found two

741
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 1: more unidentified bodies. It just says on the prairie, but

742
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 1: they mean off this trail, So in this area enough

743
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: where they go, okay, they can call this an area.

744
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,839
Speaker 1: They're all men. Then in December of that same year

745
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: you have John Phipps. He was the one who was

746
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: attacked by the wall at wild Hogs. We don't know

747
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: his cause of death. I could say the three men,

748
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 1: so that is William Jones plus the two identified men.

749
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,720
Speaker 1: Their bodies were intact, and the same thing that happened

750
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:33,399
Speaker 1: to doctor Yorke happened to them. Hads bashed, probably by

751
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 1: a hammer, throats cut. So now you've got all of

752
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 1: these bodies.

753
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 2: Here and in their state address. Do you have any

754
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 2: information as to that.

755
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: No, it's not. They're fully dressed. It's not the same situation.

756
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: And you know, you've got York where the house is,

757
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,879
Speaker 1: where that orchard is, and these people, these other three

758
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 1: people are there, but they're not directly you know, where

759
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: the cabin is. So we have all of the searchers

760
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:01,760
Speaker 1: talking about it, and in the meantime they're also searching

761
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: the stable. Now we're back in eighteen seventy three at

762
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 1: the homestead that's you know, this family is gone. The

763
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 1: wagon and the team of horses are gone in the

764
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 1: stable that normally would have been there. I will tell

765
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 1: you it turns out that the wagon that had been

766
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: abandoned was their wagon, the family's wagon. So John and

767
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: Elvira's wagon is the one that looked like, you know,

768
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: it had been totally abandoned, and that was found about

769
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: a month ago.

770
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 2: So now you're dealing with a month long trail that's

771
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:36,319
Speaker 2: gone cold, or a trail of the offenders that's been

772
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 2: cold for a month. So they end up interacting, abducting

773
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 2: doctor Yorke. They kill him, and we don't know if

774
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 2: he was killed on the property or if he had

775
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 2: been killed and transported to this property. And that's possible

776
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 2: that he was the one that was put down in

777
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 2: the cellar room and that his body was moved out

778
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 2: to the orchard and buried. But it's also possible, you know,

779
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 2: you could have had one or more of the family

780
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 2: members killed and put down there and then their bodies

781
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,720
Speaker 2: were moved. The fact that you have the decomp smell

782
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,360
Speaker 2: now a month later, I can't say that those bodies

783
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,839
Speaker 2: were down there for any period of time and decomposed

784
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:15,959
Speaker 2: and then moved. It's possible they were just put down

785
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,399
Speaker 2: there and then maybe later a day later or two,

786
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 2: you know, they're moved out and then the fluids from

787
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 2: their wounds is what's causing this horrific smell.

788
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, they in the stable, they find the family's one

789
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 1: of the family's calves, well it's the only thing they

790
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,839
Speaker 1: find really and it's dead, starved to death in the pen.

791
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,399
Speaker 1: So the family, it looks like, has been gone for

792
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,439
Speaker 1: a solid month from April, and so you know again

793
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 1: that matches the wagon there is for you know, soil

794
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 1: around that over the last couple of months has been moved.

795
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 1: And the men start looking around the prairie where this

796
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 1: property is and they start to see indentations in the earth.

797
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 1: But they're scared because it's night time and there's a

798
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: serial killer around here. So the next day they don't

799
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:05,800
Speaker 1: do anything about it. And then the next day that

800
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 1: come out and Colonel Yorke, I mean, bless that guy,

801
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 1: even though his brother has been found. He says, I'm

802
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: going to help. So he comes back out and they

803
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: find at least seven more victims in shallow graves in

804
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 1: that apple orchard. Now comes the weird part. This was

805
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: pretty weird all the way up, but this is the

806
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: weird one. And now this is your criminal profiling part.

807
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,879
Speaker 1: Some of the victims have been mutilated, their penises were

808
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 1: cut off. One victim is found wedged six feet down

809
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 1: in an upright position in a well. Other bodies were dismembered.

810
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: Then they don't know the number of victims because they

811
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: are able to match all of these body parts together,

812
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: but they think it is somewhere between eleven and twenty

813
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 1: people on this property. And if you look at your

814
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:00,040
Speaker 1: photo packet, you will see them discovering the graves and

815
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,760
Speaker 1: just how deep these poor people had to dig.

816
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, typically when bodies are buried, you usually

817
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 2: see the term shallow grave because it's hard to dig

818
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 2: down deep. Most offenders think, oh, I'm gonna, you know,

819
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 2: put them six feet underground. And then when they start

820
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,720
Speaker 2: doing the digging process, it's a lot of manual labor.

821
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 2: They start getting into that hard packed dirt. The deeper

822
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 2: they get and it takes a long time and they

823
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 2: start panicking and they speed things up, or you know,

824
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:36,439
Speaker 2: maybe a witness drives by. So here obviously this one

825
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 2: photo which appears to be behind the cabin.

826
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: Boy, you see how open that is. It's another preview

827
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: of look at that. I mean, there's nothing there, there's

828
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 1: nothing out there.

829
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 2: So but obviously they they had to dig down. I mean,

830
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 2: you have a man standing in this open pit, and

831
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 2: you know that pit goes up to his elbow. It

832
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 2: was almost chest height. You know, who knows how tall

833
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 2: he is. I'm going to assume he's my height, you know.

834
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,919
Speaker 2: So that's that's down a ways. You know, that's down

835
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 2: four to five feet. And then this other photo. Not

836
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 2: sure what I'm looking at. So there's a photo which

837
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 2: shows a crowd standing in the backdrop there appears to

838
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 2: be a wooden what I've described as a casket with

839
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 2: the crowd.

840
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: I think these are bodies that are covered up. Maybe

841
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 1: I don't think those are holes. I think those are bodies.

842
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 1: You know, Sorry about nineteenth century photos.

843
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,800
Speaker 2: It's all seven of these that the family's not included

844
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 2: in these seven bodies.

845
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:39,359
Speaker 1: They aren't sure because of the they haven't found heads. Necessarily,

846
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 1: they can't come up with the right figure. You know,

847
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 1: they're saying between eleven and twenty because there are no

848
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 1: There aren't eleven heads or twenty heads. Okay, some of

849
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 1: the stuff is missing, of course, you know, they could

850
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 1: have left it out and animals could have taken We

851
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 1: don't know. There is one unusual part of this besides,

852
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: of course, the penis is being lopped off on some

853
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 1: of these people.

854
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 2: I'll comment on that.

855
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 1: So this is not the new But the guy found

856
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 1: in the well was so badly mutilated that the cause

857
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 1: of his death couldn't be established. But everybody else had

858
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: died by hammer, and then their throats were cut and

859
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:14,439
Speaker 1: they were all robbed. And you know, these are young

860
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 1: husbands and fathers who were looking to establish a homestead.

861
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 1: They were looking for property. So there is one victim

862
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 1: that doesn't fit this profile, and it's a little girl.

863
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: It's a child, and she's a daughter of one of

864
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 1: the victims. They did not do anything. Whoever did this

865
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,760
Speaker 1: didn't do anything that could be seen to this girl.

866
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,919
Speaker 1: So there's no mutilation or anything like that. But there's

867
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 1: dirt under her fingernails. So I didn't know if either

868
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 1: she was buried alive or maybe you know, came when

869
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:44,360
Speaker 1: she was being dragged. But I don't know.

870
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I'm not sure you can even draw

871
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 2: a conclusion. Just I think bearing a dead body, there's

872
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:54,720
Speaker 2: a chance that you're going to, you know, have dirty

873
00:48:55,080 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 2: underneath the fingernails. There appears to at least be a

874
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:07,399
Speaker 2: financial motive. As part of the offender committee in these crimes. Now,

875
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 2: i'd be interested in seeing the specific types of mutilation

876
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,320
Speaker 2: to the bodies, but penis is being cut off. Now

877
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 2: I start going into Okay, you're dealing with potentially a

878
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:25,760
Speaker 2: sexual predator, and this predator's preferred victim are what appear

879
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 2: to be adult men. And it's very possible that this

880
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 2: type of mutilation and the penis is being cut off.

881
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 2: It is very reminiscent of a serial killer out of

882
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 2: the Los Angeles area known as Randy Kraft out of

883
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:47,760
Speaker 2: Orange County and who targeted you know, like marines and stuff,

884
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 2: and he would typically drug them, but I mean he

885
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 2: would you know, cut their penises off, stuff it down

886
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 2: their throats, you know, do all sorts of genital mutilation

887
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 2: as well as other types of torture. There's sexual sadistic

888
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 2: aspect that's happening. Now I'm starting to kind of gravitate

889
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 2: towards you have an offender that is taking advantage of

890
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 2: these men that have isolated themselves and we still have

891
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 2: the family to deal with somehow taking control and I

892
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:22,799
Speaker 2: don't know how many offenders. You know, this could be

893
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:26,279
Speaker 2: more than one person acting in concert. And then you

894
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,279
Speaker 2: know the mutilation, is that torture to get these men

895
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 2: to talk about where their valuables are or something like that.

896
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 2: I mean, that's a possibility, and even the cutting of

897
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 2: the penises off could potentially be along those lines that

898
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 2: it's more of an mo base to accomplish the crime

899
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 2: versus a fantasy aspect. It's just that it's really, you know,

900
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:51,879
Speaker 2: starting to sound like the offender or offenders are going, well,

901
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 2: we can make money off of these men. Nobody will

902
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 2: ever know where they're at, and potentially sexually interact with

903
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 2: these men, kill them, kill them the same way, you know,

904
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 2: crush their heads in and cut their throat and you know,

905
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:06,360
Speaker 2: stick them in graves.

906
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 1: But where is this person living? I mean, there's nothing

907
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 1: out there except this cabin. What is he doing just

908
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,320
Speaker 1: sort of waiting behind a hill for days and days

909
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 1: to find these people who are wandering down this trail.

910
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: These aren't locals. These are people who are you know,

911
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:23,320
Speaker 1: wandering through How would that even work?

912
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think we can eliminate John Senior

913
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 2: or John Junior as being the offenders. They could be

914
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 2: living in the cabin selling products out of the store

915
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 2: and one of them's going out, or both of them

916
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 2: are going out and killing men and they're bearing them

917
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 2: on their own property. You know. Right now, I think

918
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,320
Speaker 2: the family still the fact that they're missing and haven't

919
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 2: been found. I think that's that's kind of compelling in

920
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 2: terms of Okay, what is going on with this family?

921
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you what's going on with this family?

922
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:51,839
Speaker 2: Right here?

923
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 1: It goes Yeah, So you know, this is why I

924
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 1: love working with someone who doesn't know about his story

925
00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 1: cases most of the time. I mean, I was grateful

926
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 1: you had heard of the Limberg case. What's going on

927
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 1: is this family is they're very famous, and I wonder

928
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 1: how many of the listeners and viewers had guessed this,

929
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 1: you know part way through. They're very famous because they

930
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: are called the Bloody Benders. Have you heard of this

931
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 1: case before? No?

932
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 2: A Benders? Is that their last name? Uh? Huh oh?

933
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:26,279
Speaker 1: Okay, John and Elvira And it's the whole family that

934
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:30,959
Speaker 1: does this and they are some of in the eighteen hundreds,

935
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 1: probably the most well known in America serial killers because

936
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:37,840
Speaker 1: of what they did. So the reason that this area

937
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 1: was so creepy is because all of the people around

938
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 1: were creeped out by the Benders. And it is a

939
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 1: very kind of weird, complicated family. But I'm going to

940
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:52,360
Speaker 1: try to streamline it. Okay, they're from Germany. They settled

941
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 1: in this county three years earlier. And so you've got

942
00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:01,799
Speaker 1: John Senior and Alvirah they are five and sixty and

943
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 1: they had very very thick accents. Now I've actually heard

944
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:10,840
Speaker 1: people describe them as almost guttural, like they didn't actually

945
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:14,719
Speaker 1: speak any kind of a language whatsoever. But you know,

946
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 1: we have some great sources that are on the show,

947
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 1: notes that are from books and actually an author that

948
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 1: I interviewed who tried to kind of seuss out what

949
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 1: was going on with this family. So they've got a

950
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 1: son that is thirty, John Junior, and Kate who is twenty.

951
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 1: We don't know if Kate and John were actually related

952
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 1: to John and Alvira, and we don't know if they're

953
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 1: related to each other because they seem more like a

954
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 1: couple than John and Kate, you know, a brother and sister.

955
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 1: And so it all creeps people out. And then when

956
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,320
Speaker 1: these folks start going missing, then it really gets scary.

957
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 1: And then when the Benders go missing, people are scared

958
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 1: of where are the Benders. I think at this point,

959
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 1: no one feels like they're the ones who are murdered.

960
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 1: They feel like they thought maybe the Jiggs up and

961
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 1: they took off. So had you heard of this A family,

962
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 1: I mean, a Manson family doesn't count a family of

963
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 1: killers who draw people into their place and kill them

964
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 1: with a hammer and drop them down to the trap door,

965
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 1: store their bodies, and then drag them to the orchard

966
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 1: or different places at night and bury them. I mean,

967
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 1: Happy Halloween, Paul.

968
00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:26,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, this one, this is a good one. I

969
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 2: am familiar with either male female couples that are victimizing

970
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 2: or males who have partnered up this family. So John

971
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 2: Senior and Elvira are truly a married couple, right, Yeah, Okay,

972
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 2: so that would be like some of these male female

973
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 2: predators you know that have that are truly in a

974
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 2: relationship and then they go out and kill. And there's

975
00:54:54,760 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 2: various different types of personality aspects to each couple as

976
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 2: to you know, maybe the male's dominant and the female

977
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 2: is just following along, and sometimes the female is more involved.

978
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 2: And I think there's one couple in Britain, you know,

979
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 2: where she really seems to be the one that's driving,

980
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 2: you know, the criminal activity. Now, the younger pair, John

981
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:23,799
Speaker 2: Junior and Kate, if they're truly related or not, even

982
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 2: if even if they are true siblings, brothers, sister, you know,

983
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:30,839
Speaker 2: they could be an incestuous relationship. Yeah, And I would

984
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 2: not put that, you know, outside of the realm of

985
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:36,239
Speaker 2: possibilities with this family this all four of them could

986
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 2: be interacting sexually with each other. But you know, you know,

987
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 2: I've never heard of a you know, like a foursome

988
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 2: like this that I can think of, So that's that's

989
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:49,279
Speaker 2: fascinating to me. And then of course I'm kind of

990
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:54,479
Speaker 2: curious in terms of who's doing what to which victim.

991
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:57,840
Speaker 2: That would be part of evaluating this, you know, the

992
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 2: psychology of these offenders. You could see where you could have,

993
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 2: you know, a woman in distress on the side of

994
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 2: a trail and a guy, you know, horse drawn wagon

995
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 2: pulling over trying to get you know, say do you

996
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:16,879
Speaker 2: need help? And then the family ambush is that guy,

997
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:19,719
Speaker 2: you know, So it's very easy, you know, for for

998
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 2: working in concert to be able to do that. Anyways,

999
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 2: I think that's right now. I think that's sort of

1000
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 2: off the top of my head some of my thoughts.

1001
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 2: But there is the financial aspect, but they're deviant, right, Yeah,

1002
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:40,440
Speaker 2: there is a pathology going on with this foursome, and

1003
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 2: there is a sexual aspect to these crimes. I'm absolutely

1004
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 2: convinced of that.

1005
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,400
Speaker 1: I'll tell you, you know, Kate is clearly the draw.

1006
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 1: I mean, provisions are a draw for some of these people.

1007
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:53,320
Speaker 1: But Kate is the draw. There's a photo of her,

1008
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:57,280
Speaker 1: it's the very last photo you have. She is described

1009
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 1: as mesmerizing. She's tall, she's a redhead. She's a clairvoyant.

1010
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:06,280
Speaker 1: She has ads in newspapers that say she can cure

1011
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 1: blindness fits which are you know, seizures, basically deafness and

1012
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 1: all such diseases. And so the theory goes that she

1013
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 1: would sort of draw these men in and that behind

1014
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 1: a curtain would hide the two men yep, the you know,

1015
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 1: the brother or whatever and the father. That they would

1016
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 1: have hammers. They would beat the guy, drop them down

1017
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,240
Speaker 1: into the floor, well, beat him to death, and then

1018
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 1: strip him and then drop them under the attic, and

1019
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 1: then after nightfall would take them to the orchard and

1020
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 1: bury them. I don't know anything about who mulated who,

1021
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 1: but I will tell you Kate has a pretty awful reputation.

1022
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 1: She had threatened a lot of people in town with

1023
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:52,280
Speaker 1: a knife, probably the knife that was hidden in the

1024
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 1: mantle clock. The men had been known to conceal hammers

1025
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 1: in their clothes. So you know, I told you she's

1026
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 1: a clairvoyant. But also they were Catholic, and the sergeant

1027
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 1: I held this from you. Sorry, you know, police do it.

1028
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 2: It's called a hold back.

1029
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, this is my whole bag that Sergeant Dick

1030
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:12,480
Speaker 1: uncovered something hidden. It's a Catholic prayer book and it

1031
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 1: was hidden in the cabin. The notes in German were

1032
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 1: this quote big slaughter Day, January eighth, and then the

1033
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 1: phrase hell departed. I don't know what that means. They

1034
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 1: took off It looks like in April. Yeah, and see

1035
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 1: these are we don't know when people were murdered. It's

1036
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 1: just when they were discovered. Sure, who knows when they

1037
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 1: were murdered. Yeah, So there you go. What do you

1038
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 1: think of all that?

1039
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:36,920
Speaker 2: The idea that or sort of the sort of the

1040
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 2: generic sequence that the two men you know, jumped the

1041
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 2: guy bashed his head in, cut the throat, stripped him

1042
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 2: and then dumped them down into the cellar, that that's

1043
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 2: all that's happening. I don't buy that at all yet.

1044
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 2: Obviously there's dismemberment going on. They've got bodies that are

1045
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 2: missing heads, you've got penises being cut off. You know,

1046
00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 2: one or both men are probably getting so I'm sort

1047
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:04,120
Speaker 2: of having sexual interactions with these male bodies, whether they're

1048
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 2: dead or alive, who knows, and I wouldn't put it

1049
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 2: outside the possibility that the two women may be participating

1050
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 2: sexually with these victims in some level. So now I

1051
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 2: guess my question is is were the benders ever found No,

1052
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 2: you're kidding.

1053
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:24,959
Speaker 1: That's why this is such a like a well known

1054
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 1: story for those of us who geek out on eighteen

1055
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 1: hundredth crime. So this is what they do. They track

1056
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 1: down a partner of theirs who is a German immigrant

1057
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 1: and had worked with the Benders on getting supplies, and

1058
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 1: that was about it. He said, I have no where

1059
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 1: the idea where they are. They hang this poor guy

1060
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:46,400
Speaker 1: from a beam until he's unconscious. They wake him up,

1061
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 1: interrogate him. He denies any you know, any involvement at all,

1062
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 1: hang him again. They just keep going back and it's

1063
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:56,000
Speaker 1: like waterboarding or something is awful. He doesn't know anything

1064
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 1: about it. What they do, let me tell you what

1065
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 1: they do. No happened. The family leaves in April. They

1066
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 1: take the horses in this wagon. I'm presuming the reason

1067
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:08,640
Speaker 1: they abandoned the wagon the grocery sign that everybody knew

1068
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 1: was that that story is in their wagon. So I

1069
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 1: don't know if they were going to re establish somewhere

1070
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 1: else or what they were going to do. But there

1071
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 1: was a mention of a lame horse connected to the wagon.

1072
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 1: I think the horse went lame. They realized that they

1073
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 1: weren't going to be able to do anything. They abandoned everything,

1074
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 1: but they still stuck together, which I thought was interesting.

1075
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:30,840
Speaker 1: They end up hiking and they go to a place

1076
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 1: called Cherry Vale, and then they caught a train and

1077
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:39,320
Speaker 1: they went on to Leavenworth and they are eating breakfast.

1078
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:44,560
Speaker 1: Last scene confirmed sighting eating breakfast at a hotel in

1079
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 1: a part of Kansas not far from Leavenworth. And then

1080
01:00:47,560 --> 01:00:51,200
Speaker 1: they split up, and that is it. There have been sightings,

1081
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:55,560
Speaker 1: there have been people who were arrested and spent jail time,

1082
01:00:56,320 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 1: but it turned out it was definitely not them. That

1083
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 1: there was thought that there were two women, an older

1084
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 1: one and a younger one who could have been Kate

1085
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:06,160
Speaker 1: and Elvira, but it just didn't the timelines didn't match up.

1086
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:08,360
Speaker 1: They just couldn't. The math wasn't mathing. They couldn't make

1087
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 1: it work. And so you know, when John Senior and

1088
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 1: Alvira left, it sounds like they went to Saint Louis.

1089
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:23,000
Speaker 1: John Junior and Kate went south to the Missouri, Kansas

1090
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 1: and Texas Railroad and they went to Dennis in Texas,

1091
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:29,000
Speaker 1: right here in Texas, and then they went to the border.

1092
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:31,520
Speaker 1: The rumor is that John Junior died of a stroke

1093
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 1: shortly after that, so he was in his thirties. You know.

1094
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 1: Two women were put on trial, but the cases were

1095
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:41,640
Speaker 1: dismissed and there were sightings for the next twenty years.

1096
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:43,800
Speaker 1: There was a guy in Colorado in nineteen oh one

1097
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 1: who claims he had married Kate Bender. The next year

1098
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 1: he's murdered. Seems imrandive for her, I mean. And then

1099
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:54,760
Speaker 1: there's a California woman in nineteen ten that claims that

1100
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:59,320
Speaker 1: she is Kate Bender on her deathbed, but again circumstances

1101
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 1: her family is like, now, she was never in Kansas.

1102
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:03,720
Speaker 1: We can prove that. I mean, the vendors were there

1103
01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 1: for three years. They started doing this shortly after they

1104
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:10,480
Speaker 1: arrived in eighteen seventy, and then that was it. The

1105
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:14,160
Speaker 1: crimes fade into Kansas, you know history. That's why you

1106
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 1: have that case with the three hammers, because it's on

1107
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:20,520
Speaker 1: display in a museum. There's museums dedicated to this family.

1108
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 1: So since twenty twenty four, the University of Kansas has

1109
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:31,440
Speaker 1: been formally excavating the site. They're looking for more information

1110
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 1: because it was never fully excavated more bodies. They had

1111
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:37,560
Speaker 1: never found any bodies officially after that. Yeah, I guess

1112
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:38,920
Speaker 1: they're looking for more bodies.

1113
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 2: Sure, so we'll see.

1114
01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 1: I mean, this is just going to add to this

1115
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:43,760
Speaker 1: is like a Jack the Ripper. That's the lore. And

1116
01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:46,200
Speaker 1: I know maybe a lot of people hadn't heard of it,

1117
01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:49,760
Speaker 1: but this was the scariest family, you know, that I

1118
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:51,960
Speaker 1: had heard of. And so sometimes I do hear over

1119
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:54,800
Speaker 1: and over again people claiming I've done a boo where

1120
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 1: I've written an article about, you know, the first serial killer.

1121
01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 1: The Hart brothers were likely the earliest killers. They were

1122
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:03,280
Speaker 1: in the seventeen hundreds, and they were in the American

1123
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:07,040
Speaker 1: Revolutionary warren't raping and murdering people. But of course we

1124
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:09,280
Speaker 1: know there were serial killers working for thousands of years

1125
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:10,240
Speaker 1: that we don't know about.

1126
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:13,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, they were just attributed to being werewolves or vampires.

1127
01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:16,080
Speaker 2: Is kind of going into the Halloween thing.

1128
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:19,440
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it's very spooky. But the idea that you

1129
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:22,720
Speaker 1: have this kind of collusion with a family and I

1130
01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:25,160
Speaker 1: don't know what the motive was. I mean, we've talked

1131
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:28,840
Speaker 1: about the sexual component and the weird quote and the clairvoyance.

1132
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:34,080
Speaker 1: It's maddening when you like crime history to have a

1133
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:38,080
Speaker 1: family like the Bloody Benders and not understand not just

1134
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:41,280
Speaker 1: what their motives were, but also where the hell did

1135
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:43,680
Speaker 1: they go? So it's a Halloween mystery.

1136
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:46,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm looking at the photo of the three hammers

1137
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:49,560
Speaker 2: and I'm kind of curious to see what else they

1138
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:51,800
Speaker 2: got out of the Bendor house because I'm looking at

1139
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:55,000
Speaker 2: these three hammers, going, well, you know what the Bender

1140
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:59,280
Speaker 2: family was. They were touching those, yeah, hammer handles a

1141
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 2: fair amount. You know. Can we get some good DNA

1142
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:06,200
Speaker 2: that's representative of one of the one of the Benders

1143
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 2: and do genealogy and see if any offspring, any descendants

1144
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 2: pop up anywhere, or do they have any clothing items

1145
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 2: that the Benders wore out of the out of the cabin,

1146
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:20,040
Speaker 2: you know that we might be able to go after,

1147
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:22,920
Speaker 2: or a hair brush, you know what all did they collect?

1148
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:23,800
Speaker 1: We have the knife?

1149
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 2: You have the knife, you know, and I'm assuming it's

1150
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:29,080
Speaker 2: just like the you know, the the working end of

1151
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:32,600
Speaker 2: the hammer as a weapon is going to be mostly

1152
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:36,920
Speaker 2: coming back to victims and imagine that the knife blade

1153
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 2: is going to be coming back to a victim, but

1154
01:04:40,120 --> 01:04:42,200
Speaker 2: you know, the handle possibly could. It's just that these

1155
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:45,400
Speaker 2: things have probably been handled by so many people, you know,

1156
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:48,800
Speaker 2: before being put into a display case. But I don't know,

1157
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:51,080
Speaker 2: you know, I'm just trying to It kind of galls

1158
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:54,800
Speaker 2: me that they just disappeared and we know who they are,

1159
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:57,800
Speaker 2: and it's like, well, let's let's track them down.

1160
01:04:58,200 --> 01:04:58,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1161
01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:00,800
Speaker 2: Oh, you're showing me the knife a.

1162
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:02,560
Speaker 1: Couple of knives that they have in there.

1163
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:05,280
Speaker 2: You know, that knife is just showing dripped blood on

1164
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:09,760
Speaker 2: the on the blade and the handle is looking unstained.

1165
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:11,920
Speaker 2: I mean, it looks like a smaller lot. It's like

1166
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:13,479
Speaker 2: a pairing knife in a way.

1167
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a pairing knife.

1168
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:17,480
Speaker 2: You know, this isn't something that's it doesn't look like

1169
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:22,280
Speaker 2: it was used to stab or cut a throat. It

1170
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:25,040
Speaker 2: had some blood, you know, drip on it, and you know,

1171
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:28,920
Speaker 2: most certainly that blood could possibly be I mean, it

1172
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:31,520
Speaker 2: could be from one of the benders who got cut yep,

1173
01:05:31,640 --> 01:05:34,560
Speaker 2: you know, in a battle with the with the victims.

1174
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:38,080
Speaker 2: It could be an unknown victims blood stain that today

1175
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:41,200
Speaker 2: we might be able to identify who that person is.

1176
01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:43,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I would be down for working on a

1177
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:45,520
Speaker 1: case like this. That would be amazing. This case is

1178
01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:49,120
Speaker 1: so just you know, it's mesmerizing for so many people.

1179
01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:50,120
Speaker 1: It's weird to say that.

1180
01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:53,120
Speaker 2: You know, I kinda I like to go on the hunt,

1181
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:55,040
Speaker 2: and this is going on a hunt.

1182
01:05:55,040 --> 01:05:57,560
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I mean, this is a this is an

1183
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:01,240
Speaker 1: enduring mystery, certainly in the Midwest, and people have asked

1184
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:03,600
Speaker 1: me about the case, and I just thought, Okay, finally,

1185
01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:05,880
Speaker 1: I'm just fine, we'll sick pole on it and see

1186
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:06,440
Speaker 1: what happens.

1187
01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:08,720
Speaker 2: Well, I just you know, you mentioned that, you know,

1188
01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:11,680
Speaker 2: one of the bodies found was a little girl, and

1189
01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:14,160
Speaker 2: she hadn't been I mean, there was no obvious cause

1190
01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:17,000
Speaker 2: of death. She hadn't been mutilated, right, I mean I

1191
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:19,920
Speaker 2: think I initially presumed that she was a daughter of

1192
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:23,280
Speaker 2: one of the adult male victims. Is it possible she's

1193
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:24,440
Speaker 2: related to the benders.

1194
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:29,280
Speaker 1: Well, they identify her as a victims. Her name was

1195
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:32,960
Speaker 1: Mary and long car and her dad was one of

1196
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:35,240
Speaker 1: the male victims.

1197
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:35,960
Speaker 2: One of the male So she just happened to be

1198
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:39,600
Speaker 2: with dad when they abducted him, you know, as they're

1199
01:06:39,680 --> 01:06:45,200
Speaker 2: excavating this property. I would think that there's a chance

1200
01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:51,440
Speaker 2: that they may have either aborted remains or actual infant

1201
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:56,840
Speaker 2: bodies that were product of conception between these four people,

1202
01:06:57,080 --> 01:07:00,640
Speaker 2: because I think they're you know, this type of psychology,

1203
01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:03,600
Speaker 2: the type of pathology. All four of them could be

1204
01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:06,600
Speaker 2: having sex with each other. Yeah, so you know who knows,

1205
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 2: and it's possible that's these women Kate or Elvira had

1206
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 2: conceived either from John Senior or John Junior or both

1207
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:15,880
Speaker 2: and you know killed the kids.

1208
01:07:16,120 --> 01:07:19,600
Speaker 1: Well with that pole holes, that is less spooky and

1209
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:24,640
Speaker 1: more disgusting. Thank you appreciate that. Well, Listen, I wanted

1210
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:27,080
Speaker 1: to give you the one of the weirder cases that

1211
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:30,000
Speaker 1: we have, and I'm relieved. I almost kicked myself when

1212
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:33,280
Speaker 1: I sent you the photo of the case with the hammers,

1213
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:35,880
Speaker 1: because it says the benders and I thought, oh my god,

1214
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:38,680
Speaker 1: this poll some kind of weird thing happened.

1215
01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:42,040
Speaker 2: My eyes just tunnel visioned on the hammers. I didn't

1216
01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:43,680
Speaker 2: even read what it said.

1217
01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:46,720
Speaker 1: I hated when you revealed that you knew the Miranda case.

1218
01:07:46,760 --> 01:07:49,360
Speaker 1: I was thinking, oh, no, well, I don't want them

1219
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:51,160
Speaker 1: to know about Miranda. But this is good. I'm glad

1220
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:51,640
Speaker 1: I got you.

1221
01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:55,160
Speaker 2: Anybody involved, you know, anybody who's been through the police

1222
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:57,000
Speaker 2: academy knows about the Miranda case.

1223
01:07:57,480 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 1: I know. Okay, well, I'm glad I got you with

1224
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:04,080
Speaker 1: the benders. Okay, next week, probably not a murderous family,

1225
01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:07,040
Speaker 1: but I welcome those stories because I do think the

1226
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:09,760
Speaker 1: dynamic is so interesting. I just would like them caught

1227
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:12,240
Speaker 1: next time, so we'll I'll work on that for the

1228
01:08:12,280 --> 01:08:12,840
Speaker 1: next case.

1229
01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:16,439
Speaker 2: All right, sounds good. Thanks once again, Kate, Thank.

1230
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:22,920
Speaker 1: You, Paul. Happy Halloween. This has been an exactly right

1231
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:24,000
Speaker 1: production for.

1232
01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:27,400
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com

1233
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:29,280
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones sources.

1234
01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:31,840
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emrosi.

1235
01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:35,120
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Truble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1236
01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:37,600
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1237
01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:40,200
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1238
01:08:40,439 --> 01:08:42,479
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1239
01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:46,880
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

1240
01:08:47,160 --> 01:08:50,519
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1241
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:51,759
Speaker 1: buried Bones Pod.

1242
01:08:52,240 --> 01:08:54,759
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1243
01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:56,840
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1244
01:08:56,840 --> 01:08:59,200
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and.

1245
01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:03,200
Speaker 1: Paul's best say hauling memoir Unmasked My Life Solving America's

1246
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:05,280
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.

1247
01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:09,360
Speaker 2: Listen to Baried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1248
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:11,320
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.