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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the

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Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any

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Speaker 1: of view is expressed here do not represent those of

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Speaker 1: I Heart Media, Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: heat as an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they

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Speaker 1: may not even represent my own and nothing contained in

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Speaker 1: this show should be used as medical advice or encouragement

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Speaker 1: to use any type of drug. One of the most

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Speaker 1: popular episodes the Psychoactive to date has been the one

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Speaker 1: where I invited my friend Julie Holland to service my

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Speaker 1: co host and answer questions with me from you the audience.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to record another one of those episodes,

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Speaker 1: and we need your questions. Leave us a voicemail with

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Speaker 1: a question as details as possible at one eight three,

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Speaker 1: three seven seven nine sixty, or you can record a

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Speaker 1: voice memo and send it to Cycleactive at protozoa dot com.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it's going to be a great second go

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Speaker 1: with this. Thanks for you. I'm Mizabelle Um. So there's

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Speaker 1: actually really no time limit with the booths, people can

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Speaker 1: take as long as they need. Obviously, they're hello psycoactive listeners.

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Speaker 1: Today we're doing a different kind of episode. Do have

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Speaker 1: a fifteen minute time limit, but right now they're serving

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Speaker 1: as the smoking rooms and bathrooms. You know. I've recorded

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Speaker 1: almost all the episodes up to this one from a

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Speaker 1: makeshift studio in a closet in my apartment in New

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Speaker 1: York City. But for this episode, I finally got to

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Speaker 1: come out of the closet, jump on the subway, and

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Speaker 1: right a few stops up to East Harlem, just three

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Speaker 1: miles from where I live on the upper west side

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Speaker 1: of the had it headed east toward Park Street, where

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Speaker 1: one of the bigger harm reduction programs in New York City,

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Speaker 1: now called on Point, is located. I was going there

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Speaker 1: because they recently opened the first government approved overdose prevention

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Speaker 1: center in the United States. These centers go by many names,

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Speaker 1: safe injection sites, supervised injection facilities, drug consumption rooms, and

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Speaker 1: now most commonly, overdose prevention centers because that's really what

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Speaker 1: they're about. They're basically surge exchange programs with a back

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Speaker 1: room where people can inject or smoke their drugs. In

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Speaker 1: the presence of a health professional. That eliminates the risk

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Speaker 1: of dying from an overdose, and it also cuts the

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Speaker 1: health risks associated with injecting, like getting an infection or

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Speaker 1: contracting HIV or hepatitis C. Yeah, yeah, you know, I've

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Speaker 1: visited these things all around the world. This is a

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Speaker 1: very similar set up. Yeah yeah, and that's outdoors is

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Speaker 1: somewhat similar to you know, now over those prevention centers

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Speaker 1: like this one have been operating around the world for decades.

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Speaker 1: There's dozens of them, mostly in Europe, but also in Canada, Australia,

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Speaker 1: and a few other places. You can even find a

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Speaker 1: few in other cities in the US, but they're sort

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Speaker 1: of underground, with local police and other city officials quietly

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Speaker 1: looking the other way, but not allowing them to operate

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Speaker 1: openly with official approval, mostly because the federal government regards

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Speaker 1: them as violations of federal law. What makes this center

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Speaker 1: special is that it's now operating openly with legal and

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Speaker 1: political approval by city government. Our former mayor Built A.

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Speaker 1: Blasio gave is okay just before leaving office at the

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Speaker 1: end of last year. The current mayor, Eric Adams, is

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Speaker 1: supportive and new York's Governor, Kathy Hokel, has said nothing

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Speaker 1: but seems okay with it. When I turned the corner

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Speaker 1: onto Under twenty six Street, I was a little surprised

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Speaker 1: to see over a dozen people standing outside two doors,

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Speaker 1: one for the harm Reduction program and a few feet

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Speaker 1: away the door of the overdose Prevention Center. I walked

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Speaker 1: in and was even more surprised, I guess because the

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Speaker 1: streets had been so empty, to see about fifty people

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Speaker 1: sitting around in a large room about half the size

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Speaker 1: of a basketball court, on chairs and couches, chatting, reading, napping,

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Speaker 1: working on computers. One of the first people I met

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Speaker 1: was Bryant, the staff person who had previously worked as

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Speaker 1: an e m T, an emergency medical technician. This is

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Speaker 1: actually my first week before be doing this. I was

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Speaker 1: an e m T. And the reason why I came

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Speaker 1: over here because it's really hard, especially trying to harm

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Speaker 1: reduction being in that area. It's really hard. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you're a MT, you get a call at Central

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Speaker 1: Park that you have a possible overdose. You know have

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Speaker 1: big Central carkets, but one person, yeah, and then you

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Speaker 1: know nobody knows who this person is. John doe Um

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Speaker 1: could be a d O A and it's you know,

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Speaker 1: it's here is more controlled. You know, it's uh I

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Speaker 1: mean yeah ye. When someone arrives for the first time,

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Speaker 1: the staff person greeting them at the door collects information

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Speaker 1: about them, including about their drug gets. This is the

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Speaker 1: first time they ever came, so this out. You know,

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Speaker 1: if they whether they're going to be doing today, if

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Speaker 1: they're not coming to our facility where they will be using,

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Speaker 1: if they're going to be doing it alone, you know,

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Speaker 1: if they were any troubles with cops and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: How many times have they use in the past, and

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Speaker 1: you keep he explained to me. They also give out

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Speaker 1: over those prevention kids containing the antidote and the lock zone,

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Speaker 1: which many people call by its most popular brand name, Narcan.

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Speaker 1: If they do want to take a Narcan kid, will

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Speaker 1: give him a card it looks like this sublieve. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but they're basically like cars, saying that they know how

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Speaker 1: to use narcomunication, will train them on it and send

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Speaker 1: them home if they do want to pick. After getting

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Speaker 1: a brief tour of both the overdose Prevention center and

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Speaker 1: the harm reduction center right next door, I chatted with

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Speaker 1: the clinic manager my name is Susan Spratt. I'm a

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Speaker 1: clinic manager. Mrs Gary the sound guy. Hi, you're not

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Speaker 1: You're not trying to pull people in or or people

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Speaker 1: from there saying maybe you should go over there. Um,

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Speaker 1: we definitely make sure that everybody knows all the services

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Speaker 1: that are being offered in the building. So everybody, all

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Speaker 1: our staff, whether it's our harm reduction specialists who are

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Speaker 1: really like on the front lines in the drop in

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Speaker 1: center and and here, that everybody knows the entire array

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Speaker 1: of services. So whenever somebody joins us, if there's a

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Speaker 1: new intake, we absolutely will give them a rundown of

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Speaker 1: everything and so they know what they can find here,

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Speaker 1: which I think is like making the health insurance you

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Speaker 1: help with things like that. Yeah, absolutely, And why don't

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Speaker 1: you have relationships to the methan on programs in the area,

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Speaker 1: and so we refer to method on programs. But also

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Speaker 1: a big thing that we do here in our clinic

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Speaker 1: as we prescribe our doctors prescribed to box Zone, Peop

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Speaker 1: and Marphine and so obviously some people prefer to be

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Speaker 1: on methodone and then but for some people methodone can

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Speaker 1: be kind of restrictive. The nice thing about Buke we

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Speaker 1: call it is that you know, it's something once you're

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Speaker 1: stable on it, you can see the doctor WinCE a

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Speaker 1: month as opposed to coming in daily or weekly to

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Speaker 1: get a bottle, you know. And are some of the

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Speaker 1: staff here are the current users or in the methanon

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Speaker 1: programs or anything like that. So you got both both

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Speaker 1: current users and people in methan on Boukmarpine working here

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Speaker 1: as well as people in recovery. Yes, yeah, it okay,

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Speaker 1: that's great, that's fantastic. This is we're hoping to put

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Speaker 1: a pharmacy and that would obviously serve the community, but

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Speaker 1: also it would be something we could swear, providers could

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Speaker 1: prescribe and then the participant can come and get their

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Speaker 1: medication right here. And you have things like at the

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Speaker 1: puncture the second floor. It we have an amazing the

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Speaker 1: holistics room. You're going to see that and and um

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Speaker 1: and it's yeah, it's a it's a really quiet, calm space.

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Speaker 1: It smells amazing. We have a lot of really amazing volunteers,

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Speaker 1: people doing acupuncture and everything's free to use, right yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean these are coin operated, but we just keep quarters.

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Speaker 1: Like when we finished this conversation, I headed up to

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Speaker 1: the third floor to chat with the executive director of

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Speaker 1: on Point, Sam Rivera, and his colleague Kalen c the

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Speaker 1: senior director of Programs. They're in charge of the harm

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Speaker 1: reduction programs and over those prevention centers both here in

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Speaker 1: East tar On and also a few miles northwest up

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Speaker 1: in Washington Heights. So Sam and Calin, thank you so much,

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Speaker 1: so much for joining me. Thank you. He was a

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Speaker 1: pleasure just to be and it's a pleasure to see

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Speaker 1: you again. It's been a long time. I know, I know.

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Speaker 1: So listen, this thing just got the official go ahead

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Speaker 1: a few months ago for Mayor de Blasio, just before

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Speaker 1: he was leaving office. And you know, his successor, Eric Adams,

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Speaker 1: the new mayor, says he's in favor. But nine months ago,

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Speaker 1: did you think you were going to be first in

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Speaker 1: America to do this? So I'll say this is good,

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Speaker 1: it's perfect. I'll say no, but you heard that, yes,

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Speaker 1: that that's Klin right. Like so, I always always talking

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Speaker 1: about this in that way where no matter what we

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Speaker 1: talked about in our work, there was always Calin. That

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Speaker 1: That's why I thought it was perfect going reception. One day,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna open I'm like, she does not give this

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Speaker 1: a break. And it's a blessing. It really is a

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Speaker 1: blessing that that she that you kept bringing it up

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Speaker 1: because whatever we did, it was like just remember when

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Speaker 1: we opened, we need to have this. I'd be like okay,

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Speaker 1: and then we all bought in. We were like okay

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Speaker 1: when we open, and it was the way to do it.

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Speaker 1: So when we expanded our dropping center, when we got

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Speaker 1: the you know, we were able to acquire a larger

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Speaker 1: drop in space. When we got the new space in

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Speaker 1: Washington Heights, every conversation was when we opened our OPC,

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Speaker 1: this is what we need, so make sure it looks

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Speaker 1: like this. And I'm like, she just won't stop, like

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Speaker 1: she won't stop. And so nine months ago, no for me, no,

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Speaker 1: but it was there always in the conversation. Caitlin definitely

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Speaker 1: believed it because I mean, you think about it. Rhode

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Speaker 1: Island last year became the first state, the state, not

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Speaker 1: just the city, to say let's do it. San Francisco

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Speaker 1: has had a kind of quiet underground site going forever,

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Speaker 1: and the mayor has been in favor. Other mayors. You

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Speaker 1: had the mayor of Ithaca, New York, think Myrak who

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Speaker 1: has been behind it. So you know a few years

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Speaker 1: ago you start seeing not just the public health people,

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Speaker 1: but the mayors around the country saying, let's do it.

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Speaker 1: And then it seems like they talked to their chief

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Speaker 1: legal council who says to them, you know, I mean

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Speaker 1: the Trump administration, they can actually put you in jail,

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Speaker 1: and the mayor saying, well, let's hold off. And then

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Speaker 1: you on New York, You've got other organizations are looking

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Speaker 1: at this, so, I mean, kill, what made you confident

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Speaker 1: you're going to be number one? We we were just

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Speaker 1: ready and this has been um a goal, uh for

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Speaker 1: not only our organization but the entire harm reduction community

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Speaker 1: in New York for for decades. It's a shame that

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Speaker 1: it's still controversial to open these sites in America. I

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Speaker 1: mean in some ways in terms of harm reduction and

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Speaker 1: what we could be doing over those prevention sites or

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Speaker 1: safe consumption rooms or old news right, because they've been

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Speaker 1: up and running in all all kinds of you know,

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Speaker 1: all over the world, as you mentioned earlier. But as

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Speaker 1: as as an organization, with our Washington Heights site and

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Speaker 1: our East Harlem site, we have been tiptoeing up to

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Speaker 1: this and preparing for this in a variety of ways

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Speaker 1: for years. I think it's fairly common knowledge that we

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Speaker 1: were operating unsanctioned sites of both of our program arms

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Speaker 1: for six years prior to opening, and that was that

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Speaker 1: was strategic unctioned. These were basically kind of bathrooms that

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Speaker 1: were set up so that people could use in a

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Speaker 1: safe place. But so let was it that that kind

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Speaker 1: of set up, Yes, But what I think is important

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Speaker 1: to make really clear about about the unsanctioned program was

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Speaker 1: that it acknowledged that people were using, in overdosing and

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Speaker 1: dying in public bathrooms all over New York City alone,

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Speaker 1: in their homes, subway stations, underpasses, overpasses, and they were

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Speaker 1: using and overdosing in our bathrooms too. So I really

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Speaker 1: want to applaud the New York State Department of Health,

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Speaker 1: the Office of Drug User Health in particular for putting

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Speaker 1: guidelines in place to allow for the safe operation of

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Speaker 1: a bathroom program and a harm reduction setting. What we

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Speaker 1: did is what we're very good at doing and we

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Speaker 1: do all the time, which is pushed those guidelines to

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Speaker 1: the max. This is our approach to harm reduction service

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Speaker 1: is we have to remember that the War on drugs

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Speaker 1: was born and raised in the United States. Everything about

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Speaker 1: practicing harm reduction authentically is kind of illegal here, So

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Speaker 1: you've got to find ways through. And that's what these

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Speaker 1: two agencies have been so good at doing. And our

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Speaker 1: unsanctioned program, built off of those guidelines that the New

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Speaker 1: York State Department of Health put in place, was really

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Speaker 1: the platform that enabled us operationally to do this when

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Speaker 1: the moment came to be super ready to seize that

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Speaker 1: moment when it presented itself, UM, which I reminded Sam

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Speaker 1: every day since he started was going to come. And

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Speaker 1: then also just for our staff, UM, it's a big

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Speaker 1: lift to ask your staff to sit in that kind

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Speaker 1: of witnessing with people consuming drugs every day. But we

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Speaker 1: were ready because we've been doing it. We were ready philosophically,

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Speaker 1: we were ready programmatically. Sam and I often say we

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Speaker 1: we met at the at the right time. UM, that

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Speaker 1: it was a combination of what I bring to the

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Speaker 1: table and what he brings to the table. And I

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Speaker 1: really I think he's right, Well, you're doing this in

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Speaker 1: New York City. We were. It's a complicated place, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, we have there's city city regulations,

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Speaker 1: there's state law, and there's federal law, and all of

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Speaker 1: this is still illegal under federal law and in some

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Speaker 1: ambiguous or illegal state under state law. So a lot

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Speaker 1: of this is like kind of link linked not not

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Speaker 1: then in New York right where New York City has

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Speaker 1: actually made up of five boroughs, right, five independent cities

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Speaker 1: that unified a hundred twenty five years ago. Right, So

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Speaker 1: you know, it's been a process of getting the buy

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Speaker 1: in where now you've got four of the five district

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Speaker 1: attorneys in New York City saying we want to do this.

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Speaker 1: But I want to ask you specifically about a few players.

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Speaker 1: First of all, when it comes sam to the cops, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, this thing goes way back, and obviously you

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Speaker 1: know local cops must have been aware. So what's the

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Speaker 1: relationship like with the cops and how is that evolved?

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Speaker 1: This is this is exciting and that's why I think

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Speaker 1: we're both laughing. The police, and in specifically to the

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Speaker 1: opening of and operating operations of our opr O PC

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Speaker 1: safe consumption sites, have been our partners have been beyond amazing,

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Speaker 1: have been extremely supportive. You know, New York City police,

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Speaker 1: you just never know, just never know. So, um, we

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Speaker 1: brought them in. We brought them into the fold. And

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Speaker 1: then being the local people, the previou commanders, three cops

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Speaker 1: or local commanders, conversations weekly at least it was daily

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Speaker 1: for a while, but weekly with captains and lieutenants from

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Speaker 1: local piecings often also sending me text I said, with

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Speaker 1: the kleb, but who's this guy again? Texting asking if

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Speaker 1: we need anything? The local police asking if we need anything.

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Speaker 1: They asked us to did we need anything. We had

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Speaker 1: to keep reminding them we've been doing this for six years.

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Speaker 1: We haven't called you. We haven't had any issues for

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Speaker 1: six years. They came in, We met with them, We

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Speaker 1: invited them in. Uh, they came in and took a tour.

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Speaker 1: And that's the thing we keep telling people, especially if

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Speaker 1: you don't believe, if you don't understand what we're doing,

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Speaker 1: come visit. You know, come visit. So they came in.

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Speaker 1: We offered them a tour where they all came and

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Speaker 1: we were getting calls like Kyle and the team would

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Speaker 1: be like, there are four cops here. What are we doing.

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Speaker 1: We're like, Oh, they came for a tour. We give

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Speaker 1: them a tour. People don't know, they don't know what

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Speaker 1: they don't know, right, and people fear what they don't understand.

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Speaker 1: So we very much see it as our role to

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Speaker 1: have an open door, particularly for people who are in

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Speaker 1: opposition or don't don't understand or have misperceptions about the program.

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Speaker 1: It's our job to nip those in the bud quick

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Speaker 1: because that spreads faster than the positive message in some ways.

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Speaker 1: So we went to roll call at both precincts, all

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Speaker 1: of them, including the late night one, and everybody's there,

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Speaker 1: you know, standing at attention, very stiff. I'm sweating because

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Speaker 1: I'm just like, this is gonna be a hard sell.

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Speaker 1: And then you explain how it works, and you explain

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Speaker 1: how it's a benefit to the police, and you explain

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Speaker 1: how you want them to work with you, right you

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Speaker 1: you sort of you check all their boxes around anxiety

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Speaker 1: and their misperceptions about the site, and you just can

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Speaker 1: visibly see the shoulders relax. And at the end of

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Speaker 1: this we always say open invitation to all of you

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Speaker 1: to come fully expecting that none of them would none

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Speaker 1: of them, and that's what Sam's talking about. They would

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Speaker 1: just show up, you know, in groups of like four

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Speaker 1: or six and come in and look at the site,

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Speaker 1: and you can see you can see the deep breasts,

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Speaker 1: and you can see the slow pans and the eyebrows

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Speaker 1: go up. But they're thinking and they're trying to understand,

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Speaker 1: and they're asking really thoughtful questions. And when they came in,

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Speaker 1: what was really an unspect and really unexpected benefit was

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Speaker 1: our participants of staff for the police are here and

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Speaker 1: some you know, they were hesitant, and then they some

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Speaker 1: come in they saw us talking with them. We showed

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Speaker 1: them around. Part of that created a safe sort of

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Speaker 1: interaction between our participants and the police because the police,

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Speaker 1: they are talking to us, they know we're all doing.

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Speaker 1: They felt more comfortable about walking in knowing that drugs

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Speaker 1: on their possession, in their possession. Uh. Walking into one

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Speaker 1: of our our sites knowing that the police know, they

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Speaker 1: know now here we go. Everybody knows what we're doing here.

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Speaker 1: It is loud and proud um. And then you know,

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Speaker 1: we would have to talk to them often because they

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Speaker 1: were so happy, interesting enough, happy to be here outside.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes they were in front of the building, literally five

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Speaker 1: six of them would be like can you go cross

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Speaker 1: the street, and the other thing would happen um uh

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Speaker 1: is like I would drive in and I see one

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Speaker 1: of them parked at the corner with their lights on.

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Speaker 1: A text the captain that's wild text to lieutenant. Can

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Speaker 1: you tell you guys turn the lights off? It looks

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Speaker 1: you know, the scaring people away. Oh sorry about that.

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Speaker 1: They get right on. We'll be talking more after we

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Speaker 1: hear this ad. It were the first you know, the

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Speaker 1: safe and Jake's as I ever visited. It was one

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Speaker 1: of a couple of sites in Zurich, Switzerland, back twenty

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Speaker 1: five years ago. You know it was located. It was

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Speaker 1: on the second floor of the building. The first flour

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Speaker 1: was the police station and the second floor it was

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Speaker 1: the safe injection site. And the cops were cool with

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Speaker 1: it and any injectors. And this congresswoman, Rights Nicole Malio tiki,

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Speaker 1: it's one of the few, I believe it is. And

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Speaker 1: she's one of the few Republican members of Congress from

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Speaker 1: New York State left. She represents stating on in South Brooklyn,

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Speaker 1: and she's one of the knuckleheads, and she has no

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Speaker 1: direct control, but she's pushing legislation in Congress to try

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Speaker 1: to ban any federal funding not just for these programs,

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Speaker 1: but for any programs related to these programs. Right now

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Speaker 1: you've invited her in and she won't. She won't, So

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Speaker 1: you're still dealing with that mentality. But there's another type

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Speaker 1: of opposition you're dealing with, right, which is from the locals. Right.

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Speaker 1: It's when the famous civil rights leader Al Sharpton, Reverend

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Speaker 1: Al Sharpton gets up with locals and say, what are

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Speaker 1: you putting this here for? How do you respond to that? No, No,

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Speaker 1: it's a good point, because that's that's that's what's been

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Speaker 1: out there right. Um, So I reached out to his

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Speaker 1: staff directly, who have visited us, who we have walked

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Speaker 1: the site and visited the site. I am asking out

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Speaker 1: for for a comment. It's coming, It's coming. I believe

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Speaker 1: it's coming. I always thinking he tends to layd up

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Speaker 1: in the right place, but on the drug issue, he's

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Speaker 1: always taking this time together. This issue. It was I

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Speaker 1: think reflecting some of the black church resistance to drug stuff,

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Speaker 1: but his other set of values brings them in the

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Speaker 1: right area. You mentioned earlier misinformation. They were they're upset

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Speaker 1: about their view of the over saturation of programs at

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Speaker 1: hall and Trump programs at home. They are clearly not

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Speaker 1: upset about what we're doing. Part of the misinformation that

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Speaker 1: kind of moved them back and go, oh my god.

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Speaker 1: Is for some of them. Some of them didn't know

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Speaker 1: we've been doing this un sanctioned for six years. So

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Speaker 1: when they heard it, they were like, we're bringing syrens

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Speaker 1: to this neighborhood. And we're like, well, most of you

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Speaker 1: we were talking to, we've been here longer than you,

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Speaker 1: So it's not your neighborhood, it's our neighborhood. What we

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Speaker 1: tell people as we improved what we were doing, we

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Speaker 1: had an unsanctioned program where we would if someone overdose

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Speaker 1: it was later any overdose it was. It was a

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Speaker 1: very dangerous time for the for the individual, and what

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Speaker 1: we did was improved that. The other thing I've been

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Speaker 1: saying since the beginning is these programs are response to

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Speaker 1: the community. Community doesn't want people using drugs of the street.

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Speaker 1: We don't either. They don't want syringes and paraphernalia industreet

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Speaker 1: we don't either. Like all of the things they're asking for,

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Speaker 1: we were entering. The differences were courageous. I used to say, crazy,

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Speaker 1: We're courageous enough to bring them into our side and

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Speaker 1: manage them ourselves. So the other piece we'll see in

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Speaker 1: time is this neighborhood seeing the difference they're going to see.

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Speaker 1: They've already seen a difference in in in paraphernalia, surrageous

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Speaker 1: and stuff. We already know that we that the programs

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Speaker 1: are a great success. But one I'll tell you about,

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Speaker 1: Highbridge Park up in Washington Heights is a very well

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Speaker 1: known open their drug consumption in drug market public park

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Speaker 1: that the public doesn't use because it's quote unquote overrun

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Speaker 1: by drug use. So Highbridge has been a big problem

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Speaker 1: for us, and we've lost a lot of people in Highbridge.

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Speaker 1: You know, our our team attended nine bodies in Highbridge

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Speaker 1: Park over the last couple of years of participants that

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Speaker 1: we know and love. And then there's was syringe letter everywhere.

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Speaker 1: It was absolutely an issue. Sam and I are making

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Speaker 1: all of these pronouncements to the media about how this

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Speaker 1: is going to have an impact on syringes, and we're

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Speaker 1: secretly like it's going to have an impact on the syringes, right,

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Speaker 1: and we get this email from the Parks Department just

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Speaker 1: a couple of days ago saying, have you guys increased

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Speaker 1: your outreach and public safety team? That's those are outward

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Speaker 1: facing teams that do community engagement and syringe cleanup and

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Speaker 1: work with people that are in the camps, are in

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Speaker 1: the subway stations. Because in November our team collected thirteen

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Speaker 1: thousand syringes from Highbridge Park and this month there's only

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Speaker 1: been a thousand, Like what have you added more people?

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Speaker 1: Like what's happened? Like how that's so stark. I was

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Speaker 1: so excited for the opportunity to build. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if this is dorky to say, but like the consumption

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Speaker 1: side of my dreams, like they you know, this was

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Speaker 1: a real cool opportunity, right. We had we had support,

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Speaker 1: a big support, and they were they were going to

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Speaker 1: allow us to build the site that we wanted to build.

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Speaker 1: And I and I don't want to minimize what a

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Speaker 1: great privilege and honor that was. So these are polymodality sites.

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Speaker 1: They're not injection sites. You can snort, smoke, sniff, inject,

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Speaker 1: swallow or otherwise ingest your junks of choice, and you

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Speaker 1: can do it by dose as determined by the participant.

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Speaker 1: So you can smoke, inject, smoke, sniff if you want to,

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Speaker 1: all in one visit, because that's how you decide that

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Speaker 1: your doses. But I want all of that to happen

428
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,119
Speaker 1: in front of us, because that's how I'm going to

429
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:55,880
Speaker 1: keep you safe if I only let you do one

430
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 1: thing and then you got to go and sign back

431
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 1: up again, et cetera. So our Washington Heights site is

432
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 1: our peer or consumer lead model, So most of the

433
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,920
Speaker 1: folks working up there are active in their use currently

434
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,639
Speaker 1: we're former participants and are now on staff or have

435
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 1: very recent UM drug use experience. And then the East

436
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,920
Speaker 1: Harlem site is the more traditional medical model with a

437
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,160
Speaker 1: higher threshold of staff, the more traditional stainless steel boost

438
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 1: with the big mirrors that you would expect to see.

439
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,400
Speaker 1: So the Washington Heights site is meant to be cheaper,

440
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: really really cost effective, UH, using para professional staff and

441
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,479
Speaker 1: active consumers UM. So that sort of gets that if

442
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,679
Speaker 1: you're in a jurisdiction where there's no way you're going

443
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 1: to be able to get around the licensing for a

444
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,159
Speaker 1: nurse or a doctor, this is a model that might

445
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,439
Speaker 1: work for you. All the way up to the other end,

446
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:47,120
Speaker 1: which is the big fancy dancy design build UM supported

447
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 1: by clinicians and care coordinators. And then UM, as I'm

448
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,120
Speaker 1: sure you've seen downstairs, are nine drug user Health Hub

449
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: is right on the other side, I being the name

450
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 1: of the Starlem site. You are karmaduction educators and HRV

451
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 1: of the mirror. Then that's so that you can observe somebody.

452
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 1: Why why the mirror is there? The mirrors are hotly

453
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,760
Speaker 1: contested item in a in a safe consumption space, but

454
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 1: but we really believe in them. The mirrors are twofold one. Uh.

455
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 1: It allows the participant agency and control over their setting.

456
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 1: They can see what's happening around them. So often, Uh,

457
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,479
Speaker 1: drug consumption, particularly in the States, happens quickly and I'm

458
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 1: checking over my shoulder. Am I gonna get robbed arrested?

459
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 1: If I'm a woman, am I going to get raped?

460
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 1: So no safe for use practices are employed because it's

461
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 1: about getting the shot in as quickly as you can

462
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 1: and then moving. The mirrors allow them to see what's

463
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 1: going on around them. Really relaxed decreases anxiety, lets people

464
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 1: take their time. They're also for our team UM to

465
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: see the onset of a medical emergency the second it

466
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,959
Speaker 1: starts to happen without having to get up into people's business. Right,

467
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: drug consumption is ritualized in private and intimate for people,

468
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 1: and we want we want to reserve that space unless

469
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:06,120
Speaker 1: we have to go into that bubble and do something. UM.

470
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 1: So it's it's a relationship right between the practice. Do

471
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 1: you see differences like are they they using different drugs

472
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 1: in Washington Heights compared to East Harlem is a younger

473
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 1: versus older incting to be fascinating any drug policy nerve

474
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 1: which is just going to like have a field day

475
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: with our dad. It's so fascinating some of the early

476
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,159
Speaker 1: stuff that we've seen. Um, the Washington Heights population is

477
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: significantly younger than the East Harlem population. UM. And all

478
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 1: Speedball injectors, so they're touching down with us. Really. So

479
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 1: Speedball just explained that's the heroin cocaine or fenyyl cocaine

480
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: or stimulant opioid. Oh yeah, exactly. I love how drug

481
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 1: literate you are, because the heroin and cocaine are by

482
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 1: and large constructs in the poor neighborhoods, right, It's usually

483
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: the synthetic analogs that are staying here. So it's fentanyl

484
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: and meth usually, um, and you know the good drugs

485
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 1: are in Tribeca, Bushwick. Harlem is an older population. UM.

486
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 1: A lot of veterans in Harlem too, and lots of smoking.

487
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: So where Harlem is getting a dedicated smoking room to

488
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 1: accommodate the all of the smoking. What are they smoking?

489
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 1: Is it still crack or is it K two cocaine,

490
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 1: meth all even heroin K two being a kind of

491
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 1: synthetic Canadas cannabinoid. Yeah yeah, um, and that they're smoking.

492
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 1: You can smoke at both locations, but here we just

493
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 1: really saw a need for the larger smoking room because

494
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: of course, once you start to get big, long weights,

495
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: you start to work against your objectives, right, We don't

496
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: want people to bounce away from the service, So there's

497
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 1: no time limits on people, but if they take too long,

498
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 1: you encourage them to try to move into the waiting areas.

499
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 1: Like here's the great thing. Um, no official time limits,

500
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 1: but you're absolutely right. We start to do a little

501
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: bit of sheep hurting if we've got a big lineup,

502
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: But that just means transferring here to our drop in center,

503
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 1: Like they don't have to leave the building, they don't.

504
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 1: We We have co located everything here, food, nutrition, laundry, showers,

505
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: medical care groups, holistic care, free acupuncture all at both sites,

506
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: so we we really can engage and keep people for

507
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 1: so we'll be through. Right. So somebody hears about this

508
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: place and they show up for the first time because

509
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: some friends told them. Whatever, how does it work? They

510
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: walk in, they give their name, first name, last name,

511
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 1: they tell off to talk about their drug preference. I mean, what,

512
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 1: how does it just walk me through the thing you

513
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,719
Speaker 1: kind of did? Yeah? So are our services are confidential

514
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: and anonymous um, which which means you know, we're not

515
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: checking I D. But that doesn't mean that we're not

516
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: making an effort to get to know people. So you

517
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: come in, you do an enrollment where you're asked U

518
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: like some very simple questions, um, but you are asked

519
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,479
Speaker 1: to acknowledge that you have presented at the site with

520
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: the purpose of consuming drugs and that you are dependent

521
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: on drugs, right, And that's sort of our little waiver

522
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 1: and release. There's a couple other questions in there as well,

523
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: and you're asked what you're going to be using, how

524
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: you're going to be using if you weren't here using,

525
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: where would you be have you had an overdose in

526
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: the last twenty four hours or thirty days? What's your

527
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 1: housing status? Where do you hang out the most in

528
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 1: the city, buy zip code where do you buy most

529
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: of your drugs in the city? Buy zip code? Have

530
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: you had an interaction with the police in the last

531
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 1: twenty four hours or since we last saw you, and

532
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,920
Speaker 1: in the last thirty days, and that's it. Key check

533
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: for guns or weapons or anything like. No, there's no

534
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: metal detector or nothing like that. Oh no, and no security,

535
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: no metal detector, no padding people down. I want to

536
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: go back quickly about the mirrors because there's another unintended

537
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: benefit that I love watching people start to look at

538
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 1: themselves in the mirror. People in pain and I've been

539
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: in pain. People in pain and people who are struggling.

540
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 1: You really don't want to look at mirrors, you know.

541
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: I remember I should do this this support group and

542
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: we talked about how many mirrors you have. I don't

543
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: want any merrors in my house. I'm a man, you know.

544
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: But watching people come in and one of my girlfriends,

545
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 1: she she she came in the beginning and she would

546
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: be like, oh, I don't look at me. And now

547
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: she's like, actually one time two times instead of she

548
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 1: actually said I'm not gonna use again, like she you know,

549
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: because I want to look at myself. I came in

550
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: the room and she's like, I want to look pretty

551
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: for my boyfriend, and she's doing her makeup in the mirror.

552
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: She didn't want to look at herself the first day.

553
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 1: Then like she didn't want to look at herself. She

554
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: was she the light came on because they there's there's

555
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: also these really amazing lights. They control themselves, and when

556
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: she put them on, she was like, oh, like she pulled,

557
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: she had like a wolf. She put her hat down.

558
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: She didn't want to look at herself. So she went

559
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: from that to seeing how beautiful she is and and

560
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: now joking around and flirting with you know, feeling confident

561
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: about the woman in the mirror. Like that just touches.

562
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: It touches for me because you know, I've seen her

563
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: here for him since like hey, since I've gotten here,

564
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: and just to see that in other people and starting

565
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,959
Speaker 1: to look at themselves when I know they wouldn't and

566
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: talk about different thing things you know, uh, and identifying

567
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: and building that relationship itself, and simply because we have

568
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: a mirror there. Um as far as safety, this is

569
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: the space right. We've created the safe space. So we

570
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: engage our people in protecting the space right. So the

571
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: blessing and sometimes we have to manage it is people

572
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 1: start having a disagreement, which happens really not as much

573
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: as you would think. Someone else usually steps in and says, hey,

574
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: you know it says, do you know what you're doing here?

575
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: Like this is creative for us, we cannot do this.

576
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: Plus it's important and for me, you know, a personal

577
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: lived experience who comes from the inner City, from the

578
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: Lower east Side, you know, I want to talk to

579
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: them about that, Like, this is your space. I know

580
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: it's ours, but this is this is really your space.

581
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: We built this for you. So what you do here

582
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,719
Speaker 1: it really matters, and how you show up really matters.

583
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: This is sacred ground. This is sacred ground. This is

584
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: the church. This is sacred ground. That's the that's the

585
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: the Church of Safety. Sure, it's what we were calling in.

586
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: We have a story about that. But this is a

587
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 1: sacred ground. And for Native people. I'm a Native American.

588
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: Indigenous people sacred grounds with things change and things are

589
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: blast and people people are honored in a certain way.

590
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: And we have two spaces in the city of Many,

591
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: this in the Lenape land, but in the city, we

592
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: have two spaces that are sacred ground for people who

593
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 1: are who are oftentimes, you know, treated as disposable and

594
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 1: mistreated and unloved. So the blessing here, and I'm telling you,

595
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: is I go down to that room and I going

596
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: to drop it center three or four or five times

597
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: a day. And people tend to think I'm going down

598
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: there to be the boss. I'm going down there for medicine,

599
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 1: for good medicine, to watch people be loved in a

600
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: way that they're not used to, and it really does

601
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: something for me. We've had some people come up here

602
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 1: and I talked to them and they go, I go,

603
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: why are you here because I'm in trouble. You're here

604
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: because I love you and I care about you, And

605
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: they don't know what to do. They're like, what do

606
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: you mean? That's what I mean? Another thing? And I

607
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 1: don't remember everyone's name, but believe me, Ethan, I will

608
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: turn around quickly said what's the first name was? Because

609
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: if I called them by their name, it is a

610
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: beautiful moment. Man. One of the places where the whole

611
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: twelve step, you know, recovery movement intersect with harm reduction,

612
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: is that both of them, deep down are about enabling

613
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: people to uncover and recover their basic sense of dignity right,

614
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: and that when people get called by their own name

615
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: or when they get approached in a kind of non

616
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: judgmental wave because we don't judge people because about what

617
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: the drug they're putting their body. That's fundamental to people

618
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: is coming home and think about our buddy. Howard Joseph

619
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: fer taught me a lot. Just Howard Joseph's again. He's

620
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: they who founded Exponents, which was really a pioneering program

621
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: in New York that integrated harm reduction, drug treat and

622
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: helping people coming out of jail to get their lives together.

623
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: So many of the harm reduction leaders in the city

624
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: are graduates at howard Us program. I graduated Howard did

625
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: a thing once and many things, but I was in

626
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: one of his trainings and he and he does this

627
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: thing that I've been doing now for years, which is

628
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: having a conversation with people who are using and identifying

629
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: the read the root cause and telling people, do you

630
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: understand why you used? You have Obama, I'm a junkie,

631
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm a loser. You use because you're

632
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: self medicating pain traumatic experience of mental health condition. And

633
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: I would watch people go what because that's not what

634
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: they've been taught, that's not what they believe. So you know,

635
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: I've taken that piece Howard has given me many years

636
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: ago and expanded on it and have conversations, individual conversations,

637
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 1: even in the OPR while someone's there. It's not my

638
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: thing like it was Howard's. Right, we just let's keep

639
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: carrying it forward. It's really about the person receiving the

640
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: message and watching their reaction a like goes off like

641
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: not all these things people told me I am and

642
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: a person who uses drugs is one part of who

643
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: they are. Like I've been saying for years, I've committed crime,

644
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: but other identified Let's take a break here and go

645
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 1: to an ad because there's another thing about this is

646
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: one of them. Remember the key selling points a needle

647
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: exchange programs back years ago in the US I think

648
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: was one of those early programs. Dave purchased Tacoma and

649
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: what he showed that the needle exchange program was the

650
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: number one point of referral into abstinence based drug treatment programs.

651
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: And my understanding is here too, you have people right,

652
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 1: you're referring people to methand on uperneour freen recovery. Right. Yeah,

653
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: I'll say something real quick about that. There's also this perception,

654
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: this perception that none of them tried treatment before. And

655
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: we know that my interactions, they've all tried it, They

656
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 1: tried some some part of it. Right. How they there matter? Right?

657
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,240
Speaker 1: Because too many people who are just send under treatment.

658
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: What you're doing is enabling. It's not true because we

659
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 1: know they've tried, that means they won't try again. But

660
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 1: you just want to be clear, We want to be

661
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: really really clear that our folks have tried, sometimes numerous times.

662
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: There's this perception that the absence based world and the

663
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: harm reduction world are at odds, and I just think

664
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 1: that they're they're in a slightly dysfunctional marriage, and but

665
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: they're married. And there are a few things that both

666
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: worlds really agree on. You know, the number one predictor

667
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: of an overdose fitality is a previous overdose. And we

668
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: also know that most people who are as entrenched in

669
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: their addiction is the folks that we work with. Our

670
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: there's a chance of a return to use after leaving

671
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: an absinence based program, it might as well be so

672
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 1: if if the likelihood of a return to us is

673
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,280
Speaker 1: that high. You better hope there's a harm reduction program

674
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,959
Speaker 1: nearby to catch that person when they returned to use,

675
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 1: because you know they when you return to use after

676
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: a period of accidence, you have no tolerance and you're

677
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: in such a high risk of overdose fatality. But you

678
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,240
Speaker 1: know you're preaching to the choir. I gotta say, because

679
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: what was right on top of Insight in Vancouver a

680
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:24,399
Speaker 1: detox and treatment program literally operated by Insight, one staircase

681
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:29,439
Speaker 1: above the consumption facility. And you know, I just know

682
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: that Sam is so excited for that to be the

683
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: next thing that we tackled together, because that's where we

684
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 1: gotta go. But she let me ask you about this

685
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,760
Speaker 1: because you know, even when I was runing Drug Policy Alliance,

686
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: always advocating for the safe injection size overcerenction centers. But

687
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: this other thing that I would never let go of

688
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 1: was moving forward on heroin prescribing, having a site where

689
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: you can get legal heroin pharmaci And these things also

690
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 1: start in Switzerland back in the nineties. You now have

691
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 1: been Switzerland and Germany, the Netherlands and UK. You have

692
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 1: in Canada. I think they're about to open up in Norway.

693
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: You know, and but we can't seem to get it

694
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 1: going in the US. And I've been in places in

695
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 1: Geneva or other places where you have there's a safe

696
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 1: injection program, there's a heroin prescribing program, you know, but

697
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,959
Speaker 1: the people complain about a safe injection program because people

698
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: are still buying their drugs illegally. They're still using drugs

699
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 1: that they don't exactly know what's in it. They don't

700
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: know how much fentinel is in it, they don't know

701
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: what it's cut, whether there's all those risks. And here's

702
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 1: the heroin prescription program where you're getting a prescribed dose legal,

703
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 1: you can't take it home with you, And so I mean,

704
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,240
Speaker 1: I I'm immensely frustrated that this is not moving forward

705
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 1: as well. And in fact, that sometimes seemed to me

706
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 1: that the cops would be more comfortable with her own

707
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,760
Speaker 1: prescription programs and safe injection because heroin prescription is all legal,

708
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: like a method on program, we're safe injection still involves

709
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 1: people buying their drugs on the streets, buying them illegally,

710
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 1: and all this sort of stuff. So is there some

711
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 1: movement of foot to try to get these things going,

712
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 1: and whether it's with a university or something. I see

713
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 1: Kel is nodding here, so say a little something about that.

714
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't I don't mean to be evasive,

715
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: but we we are working with one of the hospitals

716
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: in New York City and some of the doctors there

717
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: on several different research applications around around heroin maintenance and

718
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 1: safe supply. These are New York based doctors who have

719
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,399
Speaker 1: all visited some of the locations that you've mentioned, who

720
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: came roaring back to the US saying, we got to

721
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: do this. Um, so it is happening. It's just it's

722
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: just you know what happens when we submit the proposals.

723
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,839
Speaker 1: You know, you know, I really I forgot to ask

724
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 1: you a detail about the overdose stuff because here you

725
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: are called an overdose prevention center, and I think it's

726
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: important for our listeners understand that not not every overdose

727
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: results in death, and not every overdose reversal is saving

728
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,240
Speaker 1: a life. So it just explain a little more about

729
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: that detail, right, So explain about you know, like, what

730
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 1: percent of overdose is actually my result in a fatality?

731
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: And how do you intervene when you see something happening.

732
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 1: It's it's hard to say to to your question of

733
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 1: how many of the what are we at a hundred

734
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 1: and twenty eight overdoses in two months that we've intervened in,

735
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: and the vast majority are depression opiate involved overdoses, It's

736
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 1: hard to say how many of those would have resulted

737
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 1: in fatalities. What we can say is that, thank god,

738
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: we don't know, right because because the staff is there

739
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 1: at the second of on site of the overdose, um,

740
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 1: we're preventing the loss of consciousness. It's a kind of

741
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: overdose response very unique to this environment. If you can

742
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: keep the brain firing, if you can keep oxygen to

743
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 1: the brain and prevent the loss of consciousness, you essentially

744
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 1: stop the progression of the overdose. If you overdose but

745
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: you're not going to die, is there still some damage

746
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 1: that happens to the brain, even absolutely so. So a

747
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: couple of things about that, there's this real reliance on

748
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: the lock zone, and we're very grateful to n lock zone.

749
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: It absolutely is a miracle drug. It does. It does

750
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: what it's supposed to do very beautifully, which is intervened

751
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 1: in these really mostly fental involved overdoses. But long before

752
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 1: in a lock zone existed people were intervening in overdoses

753
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: with just oxygen, right, Like, overdose responses really really fundamentally

754
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: about oxygenation. And as long as we can keep the

755
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: brain healthy and keep the brain firing, the brain then

756
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,919
Speaker 1: doesn't shut down the rest of the body. UM. So

757
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: we choose to approach our overdose response from that perspective

758
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 1: oxygen first, and a lock zone only when necessary, and

759
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 1: just enough to pull the opiate off the receptor so

760
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: that respiration can resume. We don't want to be making

761
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 1: people dope sick or putting them into withdrawal, because that's

762
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: a negative experience. UM and who knows what they had

763
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: to do. Zone is more likely to result in some

764
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: dope sickness because they'll have them are rapid withdrawal from

765
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 1: the opioid of failure. Yes, anyone who's dependent on opiates

766
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: UM is put into some degree of withdrawal with n

767
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 1: lock zone. The higher dose of naloxone, the more severe

768
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 1: the withdrawal. And that's not a pleasant experience for anyone.

769
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 1: And that's that's not the that's not what we want

770
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 1: to be offering to our participants in these settings. But

771
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 1: are absolutely right about this emerging landscape of people who

772
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 1: are surviving their overdoses UM or years of being in

773
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: a kind of a heavier opiate nod having long term

774
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: cognition problems. Right, harm reduction works and drug users are

775
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: living longer. Like used to be if you were forty

776
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 1: and you were a drug user, you're a senior citizen.

777
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 1: That's not true anymore. But when I was downstairs, look

778
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 1: like your average age was probably around four. I mean,

779
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 1: we got some gray hairs down there, and hallelujah for that. UM.

780
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: But we are seeing this other you know, this new

781
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: kind of landscape and our work which is um you know,

782
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 1: long term brain damage from ongoing overdose occurrence in long

783
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 1: periods of being in a knot. It's something that the

784
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: harm reduction community is looking at. But oxygen, oxygen oxygen,

785
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: and it's the best practice in safe consumption in other

786
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,439
Speaker 1: parts of the world, UM, to intervene with oxygen before

787
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,320
Speaker 1: you Before that, you have these drug test strips to

788
00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 1: write to check for sent and all other drugs, and

789
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 1: you're think data and so what are you finding? Generally speaking?

790
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 1: Is sentinel in almost everything from opioids to stimulants and

791
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,280
Speaker 1: also people. Is there meth amphetamine in New York Now,

792
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: um you know, or is cocaine still around or are

793
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 1: the synthetic K two cannebinois things where people don't really know.

794
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 1: I mean, what are you finding and what's what do

795
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: you see? Trend lines? Yeah, it's the party pack. Everything

796
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: is here. The one thing that we don't have yet,

797
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: thank god, knock knock knock, as we're not seeing car

798
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 1: fentanyl or any of the other Um, really really potent

799
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 1: and just explained car fentinels another analog of fentonel, even

800
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: more potent of fentel, And it showed up in Ohio

801
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, and all of a sudden

802
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 1: the overdose fatality rate went up. Like so we are

803
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 1: lucky in New York, very lucky to not see that.

804
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: But just just as relates to fentanyl. Um, you know, us,

805
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 1: like many of the other harm reduction providers in New

806
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 1: York have been testing with the fentanel testing strips for

807
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 1: years and years. We've been testing since we haven't had

808
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: a negative bag of heroin since, so we don't even

809
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 1: use our fentanyl test strips for opiates anymore. We operate

810
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 1: from the basis the presumption of positive. So anyone who's

811
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 1: using opiates. That's our campaign. Assume it's positive. Where the

812
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 1: fentanyl test trips become really useful for us is for

813
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: opiate naive people or people who aren't using opiates, who

814
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 1: are just going to get blown over guy a fentanyl

815
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 1: positive dose of a stimulant or a party pillar, research

816
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 1: chemical or whatever else. And it takes me back to

817
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,800
Speaker 1: your previous question. And you know I said this, I

818
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,760
Speaker 1: don't know the other day of something. The last seven weeks,

819
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: I haven't gotten the calls we would get every morning,

820
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: and we felt like every morning, but we will get

821
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 1: calls like who did we lose? Now, even if it

822
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 1: was someone we didn't know, we would get a call

823
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: that there was another person. That to me is a

824
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: complete and clear connection to the services we're running and

825
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 1: the fact that we're allowing folks to come in and

826
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: you safely because we're not seeing it the way we were.

827
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 1: The hardest part right now for me is be closed

828
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:01,879
Speaker 1: every night. And that hurts Ethan hurts man, Like when

829
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 1: I drive off I see the gate going down, it

830
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:09,879
Speaker 1: hits you. You're you're aiminite aim all way way. Oh yeah,

831
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: it's going it's going to happen. It's going to happen.

832
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 1: Just is not fast enough. I mean, do you foresee

833
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 1: mobile units like mobile vans also going out You're reading

834
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 1: out stuff? Man, you've been No, I'm just I'm just wondering, definitely,

835
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,760
Speaker 1: you know. Okay, okay, and elsewhere in the city Brooklyn

836
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:31,320
Speaker 1: coming up other organizations. I will say something very quickly.

837
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:34,720
Speaker 1: You asked, because you were starting to talk about earlier,

838
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 1: why us, Why were we selected? Because I'm going to

839
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,720
Speaker 1: a call with Nevada to help them get there. So okay,

840
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 1: thank you very much, Sam, the almost penultimate question here.

841
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 1: I was very pleased when I walked in. I saw

842
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 1: a little sign saying, if you smoke, join our nicotine

843
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 1: vaping group here, which I'm a huge fan of. And

844
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 1: I see Helen Redman, who has been a real champion

845
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: in this stuff. So as real effort being made here

846
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,320
Speaker 1: to get people are smoking, to encourage them to switch

847
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 1: to the from cigarettes to the yes for sure, especially

848
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: through our holistic treatment program. You know. I I'm also

849
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 1: a regular acupuncturists since nine and I've been treating people

850
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: for years who want to stop smoking, you know, and

851
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 1: it's worked. We have a really good approach to it.

852
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 1: So yeah, overall, if we get people to stay alive, now,

853
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 1: how do we keep them alive in other ways? Right?

854
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 1: Because most of our folks also have other chronic conditions,

855
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 1: so how do we manage those? So we're always looking

856
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 1: at other ways to expand what we're doing. Um. We

857
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 1: also know that a lot of organizations don't aren't too

858
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,359
Speaker 1: comfortable working with our people. Uh you know, we send

859
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 1: them places and they go, oh man, you know the

860
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: way they showed up. So the more we see that,

861
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 1: the more we expand and want to be the organization

862
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 1: that provides more services to them. Our next big one

863
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 1: coming up is food and nutrition. We're very close to

864
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 1: opening a very very robust food nutrition program. You know,

865
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: just answering gaps you have to conduct think gaps analysis.

866
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 1: It's a holistic health approcess everything. Damn okay, it's great here,

867
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 1: you're doing. Great to see you here. Something. Listen to

868
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: one of the guys. It's the way you've grown into

869
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 1: this thing. Would you do? And you played a pioneering role,

870
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 1: not just for the city of the country, So so

871
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 1: thank you and you know, and also thank you to

872
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 1: Callen as well. Right before I left, I wanted to

873
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 1: chat with at least one of the clients who would

874
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 1: come that day. The staff asked around and a young

875
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: fellow named Kat agreed to talk with me. So your

876
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 1: name is Kat Chasm. Yeah, where do you live the

877
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 1: bronx time? And so you've come down? How often you

878
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 1: come down here? One again? Yeah? Once or twice to leave? Yeah? Yeah?

879
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 1: And were you coming here? Even before it became a

880
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 1: legal open place, they had a mobile unit on the

881
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: corner doing Hepatitis C and HIV testing and you know,

882
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:00,320
Speaker 1: they had two trunks and given up the plot stuff

883
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: like that. So I had I wanted took a hepatitis

884
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: the test and the HIV test, and you know they

885
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 1: filled me in on the you know, the workings of

886
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,879
Speaker 1: the place. So you already started coming here back then, Yeah,

887
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 1: that's when I started coming. It was more like different,

888
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: it was different bathrooms. Yeah, yeah, basically use um heroin

889
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 1: heroin but to heroin. Heroin's got fitting on it now,

890
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,240
Speaker 1: I believe so. But you know, if you get without

891
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 1: fitting on and it is, it's quite useless because everything,

892
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: like you said, almost everything has it in there. So

893
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: if something doesn't have it in there, being a just

894
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 1: so accustomed to it already, it's like useless. Yeah, yeah,

895
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: I know it's amazing to change, you know, and basically

896
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: injecting it injecting as well. I injected, but I used

897
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: to just sniff. Then why did you transition from from

898
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 1: steffing it's injecting. I have absolutely no idea. If you

899
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: if you slip for whatever like that, you know you

900
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: have to just you don't have to really worry about anything.

901
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 1: Just sniffict. But you gotta make sure you don't get

902
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:05,479
Speaker 1: wet or any you know, and stuff like that. But

903
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: if um, if you inject, you know, it doesn't really matter.

904
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 1: You can be putting it in water anyway. So I

905
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 1: don't know, you like the sensation of the injecting more

906
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 1: than the sniff the stuff. I actually did like the

907
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:23,439
Speaker 1: sniffing better because it lasted longer to me, the high

908
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,479
Speaker 1: end the stuff like about one bag and it probably

909
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: lost back a day or two. I think that's the

910
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: best thing you do. You still go in that program here,

911
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:34,879
Speaker 1: so you go to the net round the corner right here.

912
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:36,319
Speaker 1: So but you live in the Bronx, but you go

913
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 1: to the best program at Harlem and uh and this place. Yeah,

914
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 1: so you're going to mess. You're going there every day basically,

915
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 1: you messing on day every other day to give you

916
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 1: one day take home. Get with those messing on your

917
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,280
Speaker 1: So it's a low dope. So when you do the heroine,

918
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 1: you can still get high supposed to. But I don't.

919
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know why,

920
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 1: but I just don't you worry about overdose in at all.

921
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 1: I mean the one time I overdose one time, and

922
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 1: I think that was like when the jet got around

923
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: because I wasn't familiar with a year. I was at

924
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 1: my mother's house and somebody else was there, so she

925
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: had hit me with the um the knock game twice

926
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,759
Speaker 1: and I didn't get back up. Then um my friend

927
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,359
Speaker 1: had told her put ice on my testical or whatever

928
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: like that. I guess that that woke me up. Put

929
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: the nar can innotually did not wake you up at

930
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 1: the moment, That's yeah, that's what they said. Looks like

931
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:31,719
Speaker 1: you gave it to me twice and I didn't get up.

932
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 1: That scare you when that happened, or not so much,

933
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 1: because I mean, yeah, yeah did because you know, I

934
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 1: was like dead, you know, but I didn't. I didn't.

935
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 1: I didn't realize it. I didn't feel anything until after

936
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 1: when the knock is the knock came pushes everything else.

937
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 1: So you just like you feel like shit. I mean

938
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 1: you feel like, oh my god, what do you think

939
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 1: of the quick? What do you think about it? Someone

940
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 1: to go? You know, it's like going to a program,

941
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 1: but not going to a program, Like it's just a

942
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 1: place where you know, it's like a break all the time.

943
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:10,319
Speaker 1: You know, if you go out, like if you have

944
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: a class and you get a fifteen minute recess and

945
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 1: everybody's like a smoke area, that's like this is hours.

946
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:19,319
Speaker 1: So when you come here, you hang and then you're

947
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: able to go into the back room and inject there.

948
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 1: And you've never had an over the situation here everything here?

949
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 1: And do you ever use the testing trips to see

950
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 1: what's in the drugs you're bringing here? Yeah? And is

951
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,879
Speaker 1: it always the same like heroin Sentinel convo basic very

952
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 1: once in a while you'll see um without without without

953
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 1: So for you a lot about this place, it's not

954
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 1: even so much as having it's not so much having

955
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 1: a safe place to inject. It's just a nice place

956
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: to hang out in date, right, because you have other

957
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: places you could inject myself. Yeah, you're a long but

958
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:56,320
Speaker 1: you'd like to be around people somewhere, and this is

959
00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 1: the place pretty much appreciate. Okay, good media. I felt

960
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 1: exhilarated after spending my afternoon at on Point. What inspired

961
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: me was that here, at last was an outpost of

962
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:18,800
Speaker 1: decency and pragmatism, and not just my own country but

963
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 1: my own city. Drug consumption sites like these have saved

964
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 1: tens of thousands of lives around the world, and tens,

965
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,320
Speaker 1: maybe hundreds of thousands of people living really difficult lives

966
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,360
Speaker 1: have found a place where they can chill out safely

967
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 1: use the drugs they would otherwise be using alone or

968
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: on the streets, find a little community, talk to a

969
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: health professional or social worker, get some care, have a

970
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 1: cup of coffee, wash their laundry, and just be treated

971
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 1: like a human being. It matters. Of course, the programs

972
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 1: like these don't just help the people they serve. They

973
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 1: also reduced the public nuisance associated with drug users hanging

974
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 1: on the streets, including you syringes lying around, and they

975
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 1: save taxpayers money by reducing police and emergency medical costs. Moreover,

976
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 1: those prevention centers will soon open other parts of New

977
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 1: York City, and hopefully in other cities as well. I

978
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:14,360
Speaker 1: must admit that I don't fully understand what the Biden

979
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 1: administration is waiting for. All they need to do is

980
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 1: give a qualified green light, just like the Obama administration

981
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:26,239
Speaker 1: did ten years ago when Colorado and Washington legalized marijuana,

982
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 1: even though it was and still is illegal under federal law.

983
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:32,879
Speaker 1: I know the politics of this issue can be tough,

984
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 1: not least because even as more and more Republicans have

985
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 1: come around to joining Democrats and supporting harm reduction and

986
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 1: marijuana legalization and reducing prison populations, the issue of over

987
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 1: those prevention centers is one on which Republicans can't resist

988
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 1: reverting to old drug war rhetoric. But the bottom line

989
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 1: is that these sites save lives and money, and are

990
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:58,879
Speaker 1: all the more crucial when more people than ever are

991
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:03,280
Speaker 1: dying from using illegal and unregulated drugs of unknown potency

992
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,280
Speaker 1: and purity. We need hundreds of programs like this around

993
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,879
Speaker 1: the country. They won't solve the overdose epidemic, but they

994
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:13,320
Speaker 1: will save the lives of thousands and improve the lives

995
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 1: of many more. If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your

996
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:24,800
Speaker 1: friends about it, or you can write us a review

997
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 1: at Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We

998
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 1: love to hear from our listeners. If you'd like to

999
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: share your own stories, comments and ideas, then leave us

1000
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:37,760
Speaker 1: a message at one eight three three seven seven nine

1001
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 1: sixty that's eight three three psycho zero, or you can

1002
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:47,400
Speaker 1: email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com or find

1003
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 1: me on Twitter at Ethan Natalman. You can also find

1004
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:54,800
Speaker 1: contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive is a production

1005
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:58,359
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by

1006
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 1: me Ethan Naedelman. It's produced by Noam Osband and Josh Stain.

1007
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 1: The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus

1008
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 1: and Darren Aronofsky from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt

1009
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 1: Frederick from my Heart Radio and me Ethan Edelman. Our

1010
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 1: music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks to

1011
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:35,399
Speaker 1: A Brios f, Bianca Grimshaw and Robert bb. Next week

1012
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,919
Speaker 1: we'll be talking about Mexico's century long experience with drug

1013
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 1: prohibition with two of Mexico's leading drug specialists, Alejandro Madrasso

1014
00:54:43,480 --> 00:55:13,840
Speaker 1: and Catalina Paris m Subscribe to Cycoactive. Now see it,

1015
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 1: don't miss it.