1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and I'm Matt, 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: and today we're discussing a nasty case of healthcare costs 3 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: with Dan Weisman. Yeah, Joel, let's introduce Dan Weisman. He 4 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: is the host and producer of the podcast An Arm 5 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,879 Speaker 1: and a Leg. He's a former staff reporter for Marketplace 6 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: in Chicago's w b e Z, but his work has 7 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: also appeared on All Things Considered, Marketplace and Invisible, which 8 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: is one of my favorites. Man, I love that show. 9 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: And so Dan, we're really excited to have you on 10 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: the show. Thanks for joining us. I'm super psyched to 11 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, Man, we're really 12 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: excited to have this conversation. You've done a lot of work, 13 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:54,959 Speaker 1: a lot of really good work on your podcast. By 14 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: the way, we're big fans of craft beer. On the 15 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: show today we're drinking an I p A by sun 16 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: King Brewing, and a listener James sent that our way. 17 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 1: Speaking of which, we're big fans of craft beer. We 18 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: are willing to spend more money on good beer because 19 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: it's something that's important to us and we think it's 20 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: really important to say for the future. But it's also 21 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: important to splorege on things that are important to us today. 22 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: So what's your craft beer equivalent? And what are you 23 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: willing to spend more money on in the here and now? 24 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: It is such a good question, and unfortunately I just 25 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: have like the financially dumbest answer. I admit, like I 26 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: love a lot of where the kind of ideas of 27 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: financial independence come from. A big fan of the book 28 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 1: Your Money or Your Life. I'm a bit of a 29 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: skin flint in a lot of ways. Or I attempt 30 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: to be a drive an old car our rent is 31 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: really cheap and all those kinds of things, but I 32 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: really am not a good implement or in general, like 33 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: I I fall down on the planning. It's it's less 34 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: a choice than I'd like it to be. It's like, 35 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: oh yeah, then there's the hopefully not more than one 36 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: night a week when we're like, I guess we're using 37 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: our powers of ordering takeout to get some Thai food 38 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: tonight because we didn't really think I'm an dinner. So 39 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: that I mean, just to being super honest, that's place 40 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: readily feel like I wish it were more of a choice. 41 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: So I've made a big confession already. Well, I mean 42 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: paying for convenience, right, like in the in a world 43 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: where we're constantly busy between work and family and our 44 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: social lives, I think honestly, paying for convenience is something 45 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: that is certainly worthy of our money at times, and 46 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: whether that's intentional or not, it adds value to your life. 47 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: So you know, we're not going to knock that, all right, Dan, 48 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: So let's talk about your podcast. It's called an arman 49 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: a leg. Really, you've put a lot of work into this, 50 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: a lot of research, You've talked to a lot of people, 51 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 1: and we all know just in general kind of that 52 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: healthcare costs in this country are out of control. We've 53 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: seen it in our own lives. We've heard stories of 54 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: what people have gone through and how healthcare has maybe 55 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: brought them into bankruptcy, or we hear the stories about 56 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: how our nation spends more of our GDP on healthcare 57 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: costs than any other first world country. So what made 58 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 1: you start this podcast? What attached you to the issue 59 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: in the beginning? Did you have like a terrible health 60 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: care experience yourself or something? Thank god, no, thank you 61 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: so much for asking. Um no, but you know, my 62 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 1: experience is really personal in some ways, which is, well, 63 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 1: it's too I mean, I'm a reporter, and you know, 64 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: if you probably have noticed also as among the issues 65 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: facing this country, the journalism has been in a bit 66 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: of a financial crisis for kind of a long time, 67 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: and for the last bunch of years. In my household, 68 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: my wife has been running a solo business, and so 69 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: for a long time, for like the last half dozen 70 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: years a little more, it was my responsibility to be 71 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: the one with like a job type job, the kind 72 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: that comes with health insurance, because we just felt like 73 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: we can't be without that kind of thing, you know, 74 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: So we had that constraint. And then a couple of 75 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: years ago, I felt like the job I was in 76 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: was not a job that I was going to stay in. 77 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: It wasn't gonna take me, you know. I was looking 78 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: at like where's the rest of my career going to go? 79 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: And I think, I think I shouldn't be here. But 80 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: that was a problem because well, the next job wasn't 81 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: really there. So it was a bit of a problem. 82 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: It was like, well, Okay, I might need another career, 83 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: you know, because again, like going out in freelancing, there's 84 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 1: work to do, but where's the health insurance going to 85 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: come from SURE and and health insurance costs are crazy expensive, 86 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: super crazy, super crazy, and so we looked around. I 87 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: gave myself a little while to just kind of get 88 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 1: used to the idea that I was like January one 89 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 1: is when Dan starts looking for his new career. And 90 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: I really didn't want to. I was really dreading it. 91 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 1: But I kind of given myself some time and pulled 92 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: some things actually with my own health together, and I 93 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: was kind of thinking like, well, like maybe I'm done 94 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: as a reporter. Maybe it's okay. And then at a 95 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: holiday party, someone asked me like, well, are you going 96 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: to keep me in a reporter? What are you gonna do? 97 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: And I was like, no, I might be done. They 98 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: were like, oh, you know, you seem to really like it. 99 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, well there's this one thing, and 100 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: this is this this is the thing that I've been 101 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: trying to sell to various employers for a while. Out 102 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,039 Speaker 1: I was like, this, this business of the cost of healthcare, 103 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: it's a big story, because, as you were saying, like, 104 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: it's in everybody's like all of us have these stories. 105 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: Most of us probably have some story, even if it's 106 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: not a it's not a kind of financial disaster story. 107 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: But there's everybody has the story of like, oh, my 108 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: doctor said I should get that vitamin detest after our checkup, 109 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: and I know, just went and did what he said, 110 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 1: and then a month later I have a bill for 111 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: five hundred dollars. Like what is that about? Right? I mean, 112 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: it's just like there's just kind of dangerous potholes lurking everywhere. 113 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: And then we're all aware all of us probably have 114 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: had friends who have had financially disastrous health care experiences. Um, 115 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: you know I've had I've seen our friends posting on 116 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: Facebook about their go fund me to fund their surgery, 117 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: to funder this or that. You know, it's enough to 118 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: make you feel vulnerable. And I was like, this is 119 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: a big story. I've been pitching it for a long 120 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: time and and people that boss of that had been like, damn, 121 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 1: you know, we like you, You're cool, keep doing what 122 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: you're doing. We'll let you know if we want to 123 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: start some big new project. So I was like, well, 124 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: this could be it. And so I gave myself a 125 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: week to start talking with people just to test out 126 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 1: the idea, to see, like, I'll defer the new career 127 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: search for a week and just ask people what they 128 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: would think about this idea and see if anybody talks 129 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: me out of it, or I asked people to talk 130 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: me out of it. I nobody did. And what happened 131 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: instead with the people I was just mentioning it too, 132 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: not with the idea of like, oh, do you have 133 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:31,799 Speaker 1: a crazy story? All had crazy stories. A colleague of mine, 134 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: she was like, you know, and I have I have 135 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 1: really good health insurance. Her job is it happens to 136 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 1: be funded through the stage. He was like, I got it. 137 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: I got state employee health insurance, and I knew that 138 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: she had spent the last year fighting cancer, because like, 139 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 1: that's really good insurance. But you know what, I just 140 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: got sucked with a ton of bills. And my insurance 141 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: company was like, yeah, we know, we told you you 142 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: paid your deductible, but it turns out we're wrong about that. 143 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: And also the wig you butt when all your hair 144 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: fall out, we're fighting you on that too. And she's like, 145 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: I got this whole drama. The healthcare stories that we 146 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: hear and that you've heard, I'm sure are just insane. 147 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 1: Just to share quickly, one of my own, a small one, 148 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: was that after my my second daughter was born, I 149 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: got a bill in the mail eighteen months later from 150 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: the doctor's office for six dollars, and I was in 151 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: the fortunate position that I had enough in my savings account. 152 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: It was okay. But it's one of those things too, 153 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: where you just assume that you're getting your bills in 154 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: a timely fashion. You assume too, that you're all paid 155 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: up after you know, a few months after you've received 156 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: a bunch of bills and and you you pay them all, 157 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:37,559 Speaker 1: and then it turns out, you know, no, you're getting 158 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: a bill a year and a half later, and it 159 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: just it's one of those things. I think that everyone 160 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: has suffered some sort of bill shock from some sort 161 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: of health incident, and even if it's just something incredibly minor, 162 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: and it's because healthcare, insurance, all of these things are 163 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: really one big, moddeled mess that almost none of us 164 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: can understand. It seems like, I mean, well, this is 165 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: kind of my question for you guys, is it's one 166 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: of my questions about the like this idea of financial independence. 167 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: You kind of save up, that you manage your expenses, 168 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: you learn how to live within your means and below 169 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: your means, so that you can then manage your expenses 170 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: and save a bunch of money and figure out where 171 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: your point is, where you can be like, all right, 172 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: working for pay is now optional, But how do you 173 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: manage the question of healthcare expenses? I assume that having 174 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: insurance is one way to try to manage risk, but 175 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: like as you mentioned, premiums are high and they change 176 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: every year, and then what you actually could be called 177 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: upon to pay is so hard to predict, even if 178 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: you know right, like planning to have a kid this year, 179 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: but then like a year and a half later, you 180 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: gotta go for six hundred bucks. What if it was 181 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 1: six thousand dollars? What if it was sixty I'd be 182 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: shocked but not surprised to get an email with that 183 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: story in it. Yeah, yeah, I agreed. I think it 184 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: is one of the hardest things when we're talking about 185 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: money and healthcare. It is so many people that especially 186 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: do want to retire early or you know, transition to 187 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: working for themselves having their own business. Healthcare is is 188 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: that biggest question, just like you had, if I quit 189 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: my day job that has access to healthcare, what are 190 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: my wife and I gonna do? Because this is gonna 191 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: probably eat up a good portion of our income that 192 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: the expenses for healthcare. So it is a difficult question. 193 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: I mean, Matt can talk to how he solved it 194 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: in his life. Yeah, Dan, I've heard you mentioned this before, 195 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: but I mean, we are on a health sharing plan. 196 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: We've been self employed for the past ten years now 197 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: and so having that as an option for us the 198 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: past few years. We've been on it now, I guess 199 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: for about three years, and we didn't even know they 200 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: existed before that. Like you know, it's technically not health insurance. 201 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: It behaves very similarly to health insurance, and for us, 202 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: that's the way that we're able to keep the premiums lower. 203 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 1: So what I'm hearing you mentioned though, is that the 204 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: whole reason you're starting this podcast though, is because I 205 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: mean it's really personal and for you specifically, I mean, 206 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: that's what makes your show so compelling and interesting, is 207 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: that you, I mean you are talking to actual individuals 208 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: who have kind of run the gauntlet, right like they've 209 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: are in the process of figuring it out there, seeing 210 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: what options are available to them, and sort of on 211 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: that note, I wanted you to share, if you could, 212 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: the story of Laura Derek is one of the first 213 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: episodes you did, and honestly, that really set the table 214 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: for kind of your entire show and even the discussion 215 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: we're having now, because we're talking about how healthcare it's 216 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: tied to our jobs and that sucks, and because of that, 217 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: that influences the decisions that we make. But yeah, I 218 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: would love if you could share laura story. Yeah, I know, 219 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: she's such an amazing person and it was it was 220 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: such a privilege to hear her story. She has a 221 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: genetically kind of determined immune system disorder and it's relatively rare. 222 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: And at the beginning of she gets three pieces of news, 223 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 1: and one of them is that her son is diagnosed 224 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: with diabetes I think type one, which is genetic essentially, 225 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: and so that's going to be a major impact on him, 226 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: and it means he's going to have to be on 227 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: insulin for the rest of his life, which you know 228 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: is notoriously expensive and you know, unless you have the 229 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: right insurance. Um. The second is she she sees an 230 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: insurance statement for this drug that she now has access to, 231 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: and she sees the price is something unbelievable. It's in 232 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: the tens of thousands of dollars for a month's supply. 233 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: Her cost with that insurance is pretty low. It's maybe 234 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: a couple of hundred dollars, but she sees it and 235 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: it's like, holy crap. And the third thing is that 236 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: her husband gets diagnosed with late stage cancer, and that 237 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: of course is going to be expensive to treat. It 238 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: also means he will not be able to work. And 239 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: all this time they've been getting their insurance through his work. 240 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: And as it happens, he works in the film industry, 241 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: and that's its own thing where you get your insurance. 242 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: It turns out through the union and basically, as long 243 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: as you're working, you get insurance, and you have to 244 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: have a certain number of hours per let's say, per quarter. 245 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: They know, because of the kind of cancer he has 246 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: and how intensive the treatment is going to be, in 247 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: how long it's gonna take, he's not going to be 248 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 1: returning to work. They're going to run out of insurance. 249 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 1: Now this other thing, there's another thing about her, which 250 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: is she had become kind of politically activated by Barack 251 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: Obama's two thousand eight campaign. She had seen him give 252 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: his famous speech at the two four Democratic National Convention. 253 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: She'd been electrified the minute he declared his candidacy. She 254 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: ran to the first campaign office he opened up in 255 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 1: Texas where she lived, and you know, signed herself up 256 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: and took on tremendous responsibilities. And so she was very 257 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: tied in to Obama World. And this is now the 258 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: beginning of and she hunts for jobs in Texas and 259 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: is offered several jobs, but none of them come with 260 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 1: health insurance. So she needs a job with health insurance, 261 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: and she calls the one place where she knows that 262 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: they will be like, yes, we will give you a job, 263 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: and that's Obama World. It's so they're starting to gear 264 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: up and she signs on to work the campaign and 265 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: they're like great, but Texas is not a state where 266 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,079 Speaker 1: they invest a lot in staff. They're like, great, we've 267 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: got a job for you. You'll be running the southern 268 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: central region of Ohio for US. It's a ways from Texas. 269 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 1: And her husband's in intensive treatment for cancer, her son 270 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: is adjusting to life with diabetes, her daughter is finishing 271 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: high school and taking care of dad and their dogs 272 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: and herself, and she up and moves to south central 273 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: Ohio and works a killer schedule seven days a week 274 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: and barely has time to talk with her family. But 275 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: this is a job that comes with really good health 276 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: insurance and it's covering what her family needs, and so 277 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: she's essentially an exile from her family for a very 278 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: long time. Yeah, and that's just the lengths that she 279 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: went through to get health care for her family and 280 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 1: to leave her family behind who was struggling with so 281 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: much is that's hard to hear. And by the way, 282 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: you mentioned the cost of insulin for her son. I 283 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: just read a story the other day about families in 284 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: the Unit of States driving to Canada to get insulin 285 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: because it's a tenth of the price in Canada. And 286 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: so this is just another part of the problem we 287 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: have here in the United States is inflated drug prices. 288 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: So even if you have insurance and you need to 289 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: get insulent with depending on your insurer and your specific policy, 290 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: the price could vary. And the fact that people are 291 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: driving across country borders in order to get insulin at 292 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: a reasonable price is it's just kind of hard to stomach, 293 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: considering that we live in such a great country. And 294 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: and that's the case. So if the market we're going 295 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: to sort this out on its own. Insul it has 296 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: been around for almost a hundred years and that doesn't 297 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: seem to have happened then. In fact, the price of 298 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: insulin has been shooting up for the last twenty years 299 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: and stead you google this, you'll find like the price 300 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: of insulin doubled between and twenty sixteen, or the price 301 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: of insulind went up six times between two thousand. Like 302 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: one version of that math that I've seen is that 303 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: at least one of the name brands of England there's 304 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: just three, it was like twenty six times more expensive 305 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: last year than it was when it was introduced in 306 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: the mid nine That's that's crazy. So, Dan, I'm still 307 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: thinking about Laura a little bit, right, Like, obviously she 308 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: found her work incredibly rewarding. My question though, is what 309 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: if you have a job that isn't rewarding, right, and 310 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: so like when you have folks who are essentially being 311 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: handcuffed to their jobs for healthcare specifically, Like, how do 312 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: you see that affecting the professional landscape? Yeah, I mean 313 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: I don't have stuff. I haven't looked at that from 314 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: a kind of ten thousand foot view of academic studies. 315 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: I don't know what people have studied, but like that 316 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: was certainly my experience, right, I would you know, I 317 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: stayed in jobs because I was like, well, we need 318 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: this insurance. I started this podcast for that reason. I 319 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: don't know, like you guys can tell me, because you 320 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: are working with the whole community of people who are 321 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: taking a very serious look at their financial lives and 322 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: their relationships to jobs. I mean, how much do you 323 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: hear from people like Okay, this is my stackle, or 324 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: I'm gonna get creative, or I'm going to take a risk. Yeah, 325 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: it's hard. There are risks involved, right with starting your 326 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: own thing versus staying with the nine to five right 327 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: where you have the great benefits, you've got the insurance, 328 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: there are barriers to entering more maybe creative pursuits or 329 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: things that an individual might find more gratifying. Yeah. I 330 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: think entrepreneurship in this country is stifled due to the 331 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: fact that people feel tied to employer provided healthcare. Just 332 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: like Dan, maybe you would have gone out there and 333 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: started a podcast on your own, potentially if healthcare and 334 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: the expense of it wasn't in bulk paid by your employer. 335 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I think a lot of people would consider 336 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: doing something different. But the fact that healthcare costs might 337 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: be fifteen eighteen thousand dollars a year for their family. 338 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: The idea of leaving their job where where they have 339 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: that mostly covered is a reason to stay put and 340 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: not go try something new. We're going to cover some 341 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: more about the confusion involved in the health care industry 342 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: with Dan Weisman in just a second. We're back from 343 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: the break, and let's talk now about how health care 344 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,959 Speaker 1: is just so incredibly confusing. We've got Dan Wiseman with us. 345 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: You know, Dan, just trying to find out pricing from 346 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: the consumer end is it's almost impossible. Like obviously we 347 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: have to do our homework and understand the basic terms, 348 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,199 Speaker 1: like our our deductibles, out of pocket maximums, what is 349 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: and isn't considered a wellness visit. But even aside from 350 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 1: all of that, like why is the care that's provided 351 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: along with the cost of everything just so opaque? Such 352 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: a good question? Yeah, and I I it's taken me 353 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: a while to feel like I have a more or 354 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: less succinct answer this question. Somebody I know is a 355 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: doctor who works in a big hospital, and you know, 356 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 1: recently the Trump administration said, like we're issuing an executive 357 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: order that hospitals have to post not just post the 358 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: list price for everything to do, but like actually tell 359 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,719 Speaker 1: you what your financial responsibility is gonna be, so you 360 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: know before you do anything, what your what your cost 361 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: is going to be. Preason I know, I asked, asked 362 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: the CFO of their hospital, like how are we going 363 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: to do that? And see if it was like, no, idea, 364 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: we can't do that. And the answer to why that 365 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: is turns out to be, as far as I can 366 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: make out, the bill that comes out of every clinical 367 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 1: encounter is like a bespoke thing. What happened in the 368 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: exam room meets what your doctor and their billing staff 369 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 1: thinks is the best way to describe that for them 370 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: to get the most reimbursement from whoever you're from, whoever 371 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: your insurance company is, and whatever plan you happen to have, 372 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: Like one insurance company A may reimburse more for why 373 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 1: you know, another insurance may reimburse more for X. So 374 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: every single time there's the clinical encounter and then there's 375 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: what happens you know, on the building side, right all 376 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 1: across the board, it's clear as Mud and Dan. On 377 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 1: the podcast, you interviewed a couple a lady who was pregnant, 378 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: and and they thought that they had done everything correctly. 379 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,439 Speaker 1: Can you share their story with us? Yeah? Yeah, they were. 380 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: They were They were good planners. They decided made two decisions, 381 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: and one was the woman and the couple was gonna quitter, 382 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: drop and go back to school, change your career. And 383 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: the husband in this case had his own business. They 384 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: were like, okay, well, how's that gonna work. I guess 385 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: we're gonna look at this Obamacare exchange. And they spent 386 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: days studying right to figure out, like, okay, which of 387 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,120 Speaker 1: these plans might work best for us? And they knew 388 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: when they were playing least they were like, you know, 389 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 1: next year we'd like to have a kid. They're like, okay, 390 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: well then we should be asking where we would want 391 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: to have that kid. So then we pick a plan 392 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: that covers that place. And they did all that. I mean, 393 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: they spent days figuring it out. And the in fact, 394 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 1: as it turned out, they did that a year in 395 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: advance because they had a hard time getting pregnant. So 396 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: there they chose this plan to paying it for two 397 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: years almost and they get pregnant in the second year, 398 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 1: and then midway through that year, they make a mistake, 399 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: they change the account from which they're paying for their 400 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: health insurance. As it turns out, what they have is 401 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: essentially and what's called an HMO, where one company is 402 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 1: kind of your insurer and the provider, and you know, 403 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,479 Speaker 1: you do all your care through them, and they end 404 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 1: up routing the payment to the hospital where they're going 405 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,239 Speaker 1: to have the kid, and not to the insurance arm 406 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: of that company, and the hospital doesn't know what to 407 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 1: do with the payment, and the insurance arm of the 408 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: company is like, where's the payment. And then as they 409 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 1: later piece together, they had a thirty day grace period 410 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: to straighten it out, and at the end of that 411 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: period they make a second payment. This time they send 412 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: it to the right place, but the particular account they're 413 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: paying it from is temporarily low on funds and only 414 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: half the payment goes through. As it happens, the hospital 415 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 1: returned you know, the money to that account like a 416 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,959 Speaker 1: couple of day days later. So if all the time 417 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: he had shaken out a couple of days differently, they 418 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 1: would have had enough money in that account, because I mean, 419 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 1: it still would have been weird, but like they wouldn't 420 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,199 Speaker 1: they wouldn't have had happened? What had? What happened a 421 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: couple of weeks later, which is they so they think 422 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,199 Speaker 1: they're up to date on their health insurance and they 423 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: get a note saying we're dumping you as of them 424 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: a month ago because you didn't pay and they're like, 425 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 1: what what? But we what? They get on the phone, 426 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: and in this case, the insurance comings like, oh, you 427 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: bought this through the Obamacare exchange. You've got to call 428 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: the administrators of the Obamacare exchange because it's not us, 429 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: and they called it which was not true. So they 430 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 1: called the administrators of the Bombacare exchange. The Obamacare exchange. 431 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: People are like, oh, well, no, no, this is between 432 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 1: you and the insurers, which is true. But how do 433 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: they know? And so they go back and forth in 434 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: ping pong. Nobody will address the actual issue, which is 435 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: they made a good faith effort to pay. Nobody's nobody's 436 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: hearing it. And so they're like they do this for 437 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: weeks and eventually now it's it's it's the end of 438 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: hober The babies do in January, they're at six months along, 439 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: the pregnancy has been going great, they're both healthy, and 440 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: they're like, you know what they do the math, they're like, 441 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: what if we just let it ride. We got we 442 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: add up the amount we'd pay for another three months 443 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: of health insurance on this plan, and we calculate how 444 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 1: many pre more prenatal visits we got going this could 445 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 1: shake out okay for us. And they, in fact, before 446 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: every prenatal visit they call, they're like, okay, what are 447 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 1: you gonna do? How much is gonna cost us? They 448 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: get all the numbers, they say, don't do anything you 449 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: don't have to do, and they're like walking it through, 450 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: and then she starts bleeding and they end up in 451 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: the hospital. And it happens twice, and the second time 452 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: the hospitals like, this is looking serious. We this baby 453 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: could come any minute, really really premature, and this we 454 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: are not this hospital equipped to do that. We're gonna 455 00:22:58,080 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: put you in an ambulance and send you to another hospital. 456 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: And you know, eventually, when they got all the paperwork 457 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: for this between the two hospitals, the bill, which was 458 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: all theirs because they were uninsured at this point, it 459 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: was like thirty dollars. When they landed in the hospital, 460 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: they made another push and they called their U S 461 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: senators and they wrote to me I didn't have I 462 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: didn't have anything to do for them, but I was like, 463 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,199 Speaker 1: I'm very interested in this story. And I think it 464 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,199 Speaker 1: was there one of their U S senators who basically 465 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: called the people from the state Obamacare exchange who administered 466 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 1: it more like help these people out. So they've got 467 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 1: someone from the state being like, I'm going to help 468 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: you out. But there's a limit to what he could do, 469 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: And what ended up happening was he said to them, 470 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: I can't really fix this. I can't get you back 471 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: on your old insurance, but I can get you on 472 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: one of our other plans. But neither of the other 473 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: plans covered both of the places they had now been, 474 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: and so they had to do all the math and 475 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: figure out like okay, like which one leaves us a 476 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: bill for how much? And like one plan would leave them, 477 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: you know, on the hook for ten to fifteen thousand, 478 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: the other was more like fifteen thousand. They were like, okay, 479 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: we're gonna go with the one that's like ten to 480 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: fifteen thousand, and oh but works out. And then they 481 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: had to spend another month. All the month of December 482 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: they had to spend just making sure that somebody was 483 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 1: waiting for their check when it came. I mean, that's 484 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: what's so crazy is that they've spent Like did they 485 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: even track how much time that they spend working on this, right? 486 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: They couldn't, But it was hundreds of hours from the 487 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: sound of it. Oh yeah, I mean it's it's more 488 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: than a part time job. I'm sure between the two 489 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: of them. And in the end, not only was this 490 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: incredibly confusing for them and incredibly time consuming, but they 491 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: don't even know if they made the right decision in 492 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: the end, right, Like it sounds like they just kind 493 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: of had to figure out, you know, what they think 494 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: might be spent total and just try to make the 495 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,120 Speaker 1: best guests. They were super diligent. They called all I mean, 496 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: I saw their notebook. They called all the providers. They 497 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: were like, what do you think if we were on 498 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,640 Speaker 1: this plan, what do you think our total bill would be? 499 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: And they got all the numbers. They were pretty I mean, right, 500 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,400 Speaker 1: it's impossibly totally until you have all the paperwork, until 501 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: everybody says you've paid everything, unless you get a bill 502 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: six months later for six hundred bucks. But like they 503 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 1: were pretty sure that they've made the right choice. What 504 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: ended up happening was you know, they made that choice, 505 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: they got that insurance working bills took a long time 506 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 1: to come in, the baby was born, the baby was fine, 507 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: everybody's great. And I meet them in late March of 508 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 1: this year, the baby's two months old, and we spend 509 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 1: a whole day talking through this whole thing, and they're 510 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: exhausted by the end of it. And the next day 511 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: I call the insurance company that dumped them to get 512 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: their side of the story. It's my responsibility as a journalist, 513 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: and they're like, we'll get back to you tomorrow about this. 514 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: And before I hear from them, I hear from Corey 515 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:42,640 Speaker 1: and Kyl and the couple and they're like, guests who 516 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 1: just called us, the insurance comp they called them. They 517 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: were like, we want to make it right with you. Yeah. 518 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: The fact that it takes a senator and someone in 519 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: the media to actually get the ball rolling on fixing 520 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: this when two people are intel, list of people are 521 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: working really hard to try to figure this out, is 522 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just incredible and and it just goes 523 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: to show the incredible confusion. And actually, at one point 524 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: in your podcast, you mentioned that most folks choose healthcare 525 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: plans that aren't the best fit for them. And you 526 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,160 Speaker 1: even said that economists have issues picking the right healthcare plan, 527 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 1: that when they're looking at the numbers, they don't know 528 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: which one is best for them either. So yeah, how 529 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: would you say that we as consumers can do a 530 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: better job shopping and choosing the right coverage option when 531 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 1: it does feel so hard to know what's right. It's 532 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: super hard, and like, let's let's let's let's have a 533 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: conversation about this, like, because I'm totally curious about how 534 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: you guys are approaching this too. The best advice I've seen, 535 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: the best version of it, came from reporter at Business 536 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: Insider named Zachary Tracer. So there's here's his two approaches. Ay, 537 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: even plan, you want to evaluate it by asking about 538 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 1: two or three scenarios. One scenario is how much am 539 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: I going to spend on you know, totally the insurance 540 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: premiums and what you expect spend out a pocket any 541 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 1: you where nothing unexpected happens. The best case scenario basically 542 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: best case scenario. Right, for some people, the best case 543 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: scenario is like, well, I take this prescription and I 544 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: see this provider, or I'm going to have a baby, 545 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,360 Speaker 1: like your certain things, you know, and front of people, 546 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: it's like whatever I'm healthis or horse, I never see 547 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: the doctor. This insurance dremeing is my only expense in 548 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:21,479 Speaker 1: the best case scenario. You kind of you get your 549 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 1: best case scenario, You're going and see what that looks 550 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: like it adds up to. And then you on the 551 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: other column are like, what happens if God forbid I 552 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: get hit by bus? You know, and like what's the 553 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 1: most how how bad could it get um? And what 554 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: does this policy do for me? Then? And you know, 555 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 1: this economist I talked to you basically said like you 556 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: can compare plans and there might be a plan that's 557 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: like actually where one plan is better for you on 558 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: both of those measures than the other plan. And he 559 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: was like a lot of people do not make the 560 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: right choice when they're in that scenario. So you can 561 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: you can at least roughly do that math. Now, another 562 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: expert who gets born into the weeds with people said like, 563 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: because I walked into her off as, I was like, 564 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: I can make a spreadsheet with that, and she was like, okay, 565 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: smart guy, have you have you considered that that some 566 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 1: of the plans you're looking at may have a separate 567 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: deductible for pharma and a separate deductible for the e 568 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: er and might treat this as what's called a copay 569 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: where you walk in and you pay twenty bucks that's 570 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 1: your share. And this is what's called coinsurance where you're 571 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,199 Speaker 1: on the hook for No. I hadn't considered that, Well, 572 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 1: start considering it right, Like and that we talked about 573 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: this idea of in network and out of network. Is 574 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 1: the doctor who's treating you, what's what it's called in network? 575 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: It's when they've got to deal with your insurance and 576 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 1: they've agreed, like they're gonna you're gonna only charge so 577 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 1: much and you're gonna pay x amount of that. Well, 578 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: that's an area where you really don't know because you 579 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: might go to a hospital that's in your network. That 580 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: is to say, the hospitals like, yes, our doctors you know, 581 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: accept this insurance. But there's a radiologist some place who 582 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: didn't buy in, or an an enthusiologist or didn't buy in, 583 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: and then you get a bill for the whole amount 584 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 1: you're insurance, like, we don't know this guy. Uh, you've 585 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: got a separate deductible if he's if we don't know 586 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: this guy, so you're on the hook for whatever is 587 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: his bill is, and his bill is whatever he decides 588 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: it is, because he didn't make a deal with insurance 589 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: that it is only going to be a certain amount. Yeah, 590 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: and especially in the case of something like an emergency. 591 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: You have you can plan for a lot of things, 592 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: you certainly can't plan in the case of an emergency, 593 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: and that's when a lot of people get completely screwed. 594 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: Right In the show to you, you talked about a 595 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: tool that a state was using that actually helped people 596 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: pick the best health care coverage for them because economists 597 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: don't find it easy to find to find the right 598 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: plan for them, and consumers of course even more so. 599 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: So what was that tool and why isn't that more 600 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: widely available that well, that's a super good question. That 601 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: tool was developed by a group called Consumers Checkbook. They 602 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: i think initially developed a version of it for federal employees, 603 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: and like they're hired by the federal government to like 604 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: develop that tool for federal employees, and then they were like, hey, 605 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: we kind of figured this out, and they marketed it 606 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: to some state Obama character ages that picked up picked 607 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: it up. But like, that's a that's a one by one. 608 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: There's fifty states, right, and I don't know, maybe four 609 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: or five states have picked up on that. I haven't 610 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: done the reporting on this, but my impression is there 611 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: maybe a couple of other states that have done this 612 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: through other There are other entities that do make similar tools, 613 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: including through their employer, Like there are companies that develop 614 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: standalone tools and then you can sell it to an employer, 615 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: is like, hey, this is another benefit you can offer 616 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: your employees. They get to help them choose their insurance. Basically, 617 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: either you you have access to this because your employer 618 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: provides it, or because the state where you happen to 619 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: live has provided for a tool like this with the 620 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: their Obamacare exchange, or you don't um because it's a 621 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: Again we talked about how you know every time you 622 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: visit the doctor or have some other kind of clinical encounter. 623 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: The way it gets built is this very very bespoke 624 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: little little item where they look at all the variables 625 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: in your plan. And similarly, like to create a tool 626 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: like this, you have to create it for the actual 627 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: specific plan from this insurer and this specific version of 628 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: that plan. And compared to the other ones, so it 629 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: only you know, this has to be kind of hand cooked, right, 630 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: I mean, And ultimately, like the goal of that is 631 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: to not only have better health coverage like health insurance, right, 632 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: but to be able to rein into some of those costs, 633 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: because if you're not planning properly, you're not going to 634 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: be able to choose a plan that fits with your needs. Right, 635 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: That's what I hear you're saying. But ultimately a lot 636 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: of this comes down to cost, right, Like that's the 637 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: biggest complaint. It's so freaking expensive, And so we're going 638 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: to talk more about that right after this break. All right, 639 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: we're back to We're talking with Dan Weisman, the host 640 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: of the podcast and Arm and a Leg, where he 641 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 1: goes in depth talking about the skyrocketing costs of of 642 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: healthcare in the United States. And Dan, do you think 643 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: it's because of the insurance and healthcare providers? It almost 644 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: feels like collusion at times, especially with the way healthcare 645 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: providers and the states have merged together. They've bought one another, 646 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: These healthcare providers have bought smaller doctors practices, and it 647 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: feels like there's all these things behind the scenes working 648 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: against us. At the same time, can you tell us 649 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: a little more about that. Oh man, there's I mean, 650 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: there's what I know, there's there's the non unknowns and 651 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: the unknown unknowns of there's. But I think you've kind 652 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: of hit You've hit one big piece of it, which is, Yeah, 653 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: like I would put it this way, Like the big 654 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: thing is that, like everybody on the other side of 655 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: this from you is trying to make a buck, and 656 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: in some cases they're just trying to earn a living. 657 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: In other cases they're trying to make a killing. Right 658 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: If you're if you are, if you run a giant 659 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: farmer company, you have to be in a business of 660 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: trying to make a killing because you've got stockholders who 661 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: have invested in you expecting that your company is in 662 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: the business of making a killing. That's my impression of 663 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: how that works. If you're an insurance company, you're in 664 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: a business you you may or may not mean some 665 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: insurance companies are are not run to kind of maximize profits. 666 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: There are health insurance companies that are like totally for 667 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: profit entities and maximize profits. But you're definitely in the 668 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: business of trying not to lose money, right, I mean, 669 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: that's that's the you can't offer a plan a year 670 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: over year where like it ends up, you end up 671 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: paying out more then you take in in premiums. And 672 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: if you're running a hospital or running a doctor's practice, 673 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: you're trying to stay afloat. I've started thinking this is 674 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: a little bit like a casino, but that's a bad 675 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,239 Speaker 1: metaphor too, where the house always wins. But it's not 676 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: just one house, because it's actually everybody, and they're not 677 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: just playing against you. They're playing against each other. The 678 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: insurance companies playing against the doctor's office and there, and 679 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 1: they're playing against the farming companies, and everybody's playing against there. 680 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: They're all trying to kind of squeeze. We were talking 681 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 1: about how you know your doctor sees you, and then 682 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: they're building office figured out, well, how do we get 683 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 1: the most from insurance out of this? Well, okay, that 684 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: means you're doctors employing somebody, a whole staff people to 685 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: make those calculations, and their salaries have to be paid 686 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: for out or whatever they get back from insurance and 687 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: from you. And on the other side, the insurance company 688 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: has their whole army of people doing the same little 689 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: you know, Jiu jitsu like, oh no, no, we see you, 690 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 1: but we're not going to allow that. We're gonna carve 691 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,280 Speaker 1: it that right, And so all all these people get paid, 692 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,839 Speaker 1: so not beed by Elizabeth Rosenthal, who I now get 693 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: to work with. She's a former New York Times reporter. 694 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,879 Speaker 1: She wrote a book called An American Sickness, and she 695 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: had an outbed in New York Times recently where she 696 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: was she looked at like, if we had medicare for all, 697 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: you know, we took all of this, we took a 698 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: lot of this out, there would be a lot of layoffs. 699 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,399 Speaker 1: And she named a number which I can't remember which 700 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: I looked up at the time, and the bulk of 701 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: those people who would be laid off are the people 702 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: who are fighting this war. So, I mean, you just 703 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: touched on like the pharmaceuticals, right, and how they're kind 704 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: of out to make a profit at least to pay 705 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: some dividends to the stockholders, and obviously at the insurance companies. 706 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 1: But I almost feel like there's a third party, right, 707 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: Like how much of the the higher costs do you feel, 708 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 1: you know, might be because of us as patients? You know, 709 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: I think it's natural that like we'd want care or 710 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 1: you know, or drugs that can make us more comfortable, 711 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,919 Speaker 1: but oftentimes we're the ones that are they're making that call. 712 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,399 Speaker 1: Do do you feel like some of this lies lies 713 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: to us? Well, it's a super good question, and certainly 714 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: think about the psychology of it. I can that seems 715 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: kind of intuitive, right, where we also want, uh, you know, 716 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,240 Speaker 1: we want what we want. Someone I talked to you recently. 717 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: I can't remember the conscient of conversation, but the bottom 718 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: line of it was like, and paying a ton for 719 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: this coverage, I want to get the most I can 720 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,359 Speaker 1: out of it. Right, If I have an a can pain, 721 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,399 Speaker 1: I'm going to the doctor because I have paid for that. 722 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 1: You don't try to buy a test La to drive 723 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,359 Speaker 1: for right, I want that zero to six speed and 724 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: I'm I'm paying. I'm I'm making testas size payments on this, 725 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 1: so I'm I want my testa out of it. So 726 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: I think intuitively that makes there there, It makes a 727 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 1: kind of intuitive sense. I haven't seen data that says that. 728 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: I have seen data actually though, it says that the 729 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 1: US actually has lower utilization of healthcare than countries that 730 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 1: spend less and have better results. And I don't know 731 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 1: where you would get the data, but that idea of 732 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 1: that idea of rationing our own care because of the 733 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: cost that you know, completely adds up. I don't know 734 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: about stats on on people rashing their healthcare, but I 735 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: do I have seen stats about people not getting prescription 736 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: meds that they have been prescribed, and there's there's a 737 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 1: huge percentage of prescriptions that just go unfilled. And it's 738 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 1: typically because people go to the doctor they want some 739 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: sort of healthcare solution and they get a prescription and 740 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: they realize that they're probably not going to have the 741 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: funds to be able to cover it. So that's that's 742 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: a huge issue. I wanted to ask you Dan about 743 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: some of the specific tactics that people take to reduce 744 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: the cost of health care in their own lives. What 745 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 1: about negotiating directly with hospitals when you when you get 746 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,279 Speaker 1: a bit is that something you've seen people that you've 747 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: talked to during the course of the show actually, you know, 748 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 1: take into their own hands and give it a go. Yes, 749 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 1: people do it. Now that I've started to kind of 750 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: collect these stories, what I would say is not enough 751 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: people do it. People are unwilling to fight the battle 752 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: and when they should. Well, there's different scenarios, right. I 753 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 1: heard from a guy who was like, he took his 754 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,240 Speaker 1: son to the emergency room because it was eleven o'clock 755 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 1: at night and no other place was open, and his 756 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 1: son had an earche that really was worrisome. It was horrible, 757 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: and it hadn't gone away and hadn't responded to the 758 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,840 Speaker 1: over the counter medications yet in the house, and you know, 759 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: it was in the E R FRO just a short 760 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: time and they were like, you've got an ear infection. 761 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: We're giving you one days of antibiotic and a steroid 762 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,399 Speaker 1: to take the swelling down, and a prescription and see 763 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 1: you later. And the bill was in the thousands of dollars, 764 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 1: almost all of it for what was called a facility fee, 765 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 1: which seemed insane. And you know, he called and and 766 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: tried to get some resolution and tried to barg with them, 767 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 1: and they they, you know, weren't picking up the phone, 768 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 1: which he said, And I think this makes sense intuitively, 769 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 1: you know, a little bit of a strategy. Like I'm 770 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: kind of one of the stories I'm kind of interested 771 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: in is how much terrible customer service, you know, in 772 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:15,359 Speaker 1: this industry is strategic. Yeah, there's not a whole lot 773 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,759 Speaker 1: of incentive to provide great customers, right. Yeah, So he 774 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: made the effort and eventually decided and I've heard this 775 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: from other people to eventually decided like my time is 776 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: worth more than this and my peace of mind, Like 777 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,319 Speaker 1: they're they're dug in. All they have to do is 778 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 1: wait and not respond to me. I don't know if 779 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 1: I'm ever gonna get satisfaction. I'm giving up here and 780 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 1: writing the check. So there are cases where where that happens. 781 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: There are cases, I think where people get bills and 782 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 1: I think we're just not used to thinking of bills 783 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: as negotiable. When I get my buil from the electric 784 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: company or the credit card company, I do not think 785 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:48,319 Speaker 1: of that as something that they just as like some 786 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 1: random number that they picked that if I called them 787 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: and said, like, well, what would you really accept that 788 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 1: they would accept less. That's not how I'm conditioned to 789 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:59,279 Speaker 1: think of a bill, right, And with health care, that 790 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: number it could be integotiable if you catch the right 791 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: person at the right time and ask them in the 792 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 1: right way. Yeah, I mean, does that mean just mean 793 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,360 Speaker 1: being more persistent though? I mean you said, like I 794 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: think back to the couple right, like the pregnant couple, 795 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 1: and it sounds like they spent a ton of time 796 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 1: on the phone and in the end it sounded like 797 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 1: that paid off. They either got ahold of the right 798 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 1: healthcare provider or whether it be a senator or representative. 799 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:32,839 Speaker 1: They I mean, they did everything. They were completely persistent 800 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 1: and in some ways right. They eventually got, you know, 801 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: a better result than if they had just thrown up 802 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:42,319 Speaker 1: their hands, like the result they got before before their 803 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 1: insurance company heard from me. They looked like to be 804 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: on the hook for about half of the thirty dollars 805 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 1: in bills, and that was better than for thirty dollars 806 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 1: of it, but at any enormous cost to them, and 807 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 1: that took a ton of work for them. Ultimately, from 808 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: my perfective, wasn't really fair right their original insure or 809 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 1: should have listened to them, should have dealt with them. 810 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 1: I've mentioned before, they've started thinking this is a bit 811 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 1: of a casino situation, and I think, like walking into 812 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,279 Speaker 1: a casino, it's set up for the house to win. 813 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:15,439 Speaker 1: You can't completely count on beating the odds every time. 814 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,320 Speaker 1: You can't. You can't make a living going to casinos 815 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 1: unless you're I don't know, maybe there are people who 816 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 1: can do that, but they make movies about those people. 817 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,799 Speaker 1: But you can go to the casino. You can go 818 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,399 Speaker 1: to the casino blind and pour all your money into 819 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 1: a slot machine. You can go to a sino never 820 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 1: having thought about how to play blackjack. We're never having 821 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 1: studied how to be better, how to have better odds 822 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 1: at poker. You can go to the casino without ever 823 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:41,959 Speaker 1: having looked up the tables to see how the odds 824 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 1: and craps really work. Or you can go to the 825 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,799 Speaker 1: casino having studied all that stuff. And if you go 826 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 1: having studied all that stuff, you're reducing the house's advantage 827 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,919 Speaker 1: some And that's what I'm interested in. It's I think 828 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: it's more stark for healthcare. Honestly, this is my job, right. 829 00:40:58,120 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: I do this for a living, and I've been a 830 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:01,920 Speaker 1: reporter for a long time. I'm pretty good at it. 831 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 1: And it took me a couple of weeks of hounding 832 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:10,279 Speaker 1: state officials for me to even identify which agency was 833 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 1: the right regulator, and then to ask them the question directly, 834 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,239 Speaker 1: and then follow up on the non answer, and then 835 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 1: follow up on that non answer before I figured out 836 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:21,719 Speaker 1: where the state of the law really was, if it 837 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,120 Speaker 1: was even legal, what happened to those people, And that 838 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 1: was one case. You need an army of lawyers and 839 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 1: accountants and people who like study every angle and end 840 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,719 Speaker 1: actuaries to really figure out how to kind of get 841 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:37,880 Speaker 1: the odds to work in your favor. And who has 842 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,000 Speaker 1: that army of people? The answer is your hospital system 843 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,239 Speaker 1: has that army of people. Your insurance company has that 844 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 1: army of people. Everybody on the other side of these 845 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 1: transactions has that army of people. So I think there's 846 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: a real limit to what we can do to protect 847 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,359 Speaker 1: ourselves financially from all of these other players, because they 848 00:41:55,560 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: all do this for a living, full time, well staffed, 849 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 1: well capitalized. But we we have to educate ourselves as 850 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,280 Speaker 1: best we can about the best tools that are available. 851 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,359 Speaker 1: And that's you know there and I've I've I've heard 852 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,839 Speaker 1: from enough people we will find ways to like make 853 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,160 Speaker 1: it suck less for us. But this whole situation just 854 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,880 Speaker 1: completely blows. So that makes me want to ask you 855 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,480 Speaker 1: one more question, Dan, is what's the most hopeful that 856 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,760 Speaker 1: you've felt about the future of healthcare? You know, during 857 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,439 Speaker 1: during the reporting, like as you've heard these stories. There's 858 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: a lot of bad news, and so what specific things 859 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 1: kind of give you hope. Oh, well, there's a story 860 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,840 Speaker 1: that I'm that I'm doing now, um about a clinic 861 00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 1: in Indiana, And I stopped by their while reporting another 862 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 1: story about half dozen years ago, and I was super 863 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,760 Speaker 1: taken with it. And they start a low income community 864 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:59,200 Speaker 1: and they take all comers with insurance without insurance, and 865 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:03,319 Speaker 1: they give of terrific care from everything I can tell, 866 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,279 Speaker 1: and they've shown me the data and they've shown me 867 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 1: how they compare to other clinics in the SAD. I 868 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 1: went back there last week and you know, it's it's founded, 869 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 1: it was founded by and it's still run by this 870 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 1: guy who's kind of a visionary. You know, he decided 871 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,839 Speaker 1: in college this is what he wanted to do. He 872 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 1: hadn't been interested necessarily being a doctor, but he decided 873 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 1: this is what he wanted to do, and so he 874 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 1: went to med school to do this. He came back 875 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,279 Speaker 1: and he founded this clinic and they do. They're so 876 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 1: they're creative, and they are determined, and they keep the 877 00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,560 Speaker 1: big picture goal in front of the meddal times and 878 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 1: they're winning. From what I can tell, they are providing 879 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,960 Speaker 1: really great care. The numbers that they showed me of 880 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,800 Speaker 1: like they're beating everybody to stay sometimes by a factor 881 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,080 Speaker 1: two in terms of like are you immunizing all the 882 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,279 Speaker 1: all the kids under two? Do all the women of 883 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,759 Speaker 1: the certain ages get you know, perhaps mere and other 884 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 1: preventive guncological exams? Are you screening for depression? Are you 885 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:02,160 Speaker 1: screening for coal in cancers? And men and their way 886 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:07,040 Speaker 1: they're ahead of kind of the official goals and they 887 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:08,880 Speaker 1: they're one of their prime things is they're they're there 888 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,880 Speaker 1: to treat people like human beings. Yeah, it sounds like 889 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 1: it's accessible, right, Like that care that they're providing, it's 890 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:17,960 Speaker 1: accessible for folks that's not out of their reach when 891 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,560 Speaker 1: it comes to how much thing has cost. And preventative 892 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,600 Speaker 1: care is not typically how we view healthcare in the 893 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 1: United States. It doesn't seem like it's it seems like 894 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:29,160 Speaker 1: it's really care for for sick people and we're not 895 00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,920 Speaker 1: really thinking about the holistic solution. And it sounds like 896 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,600 Speaker 1: this place is well. They also, I mean, the director 897 00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,080 Speaker 1: also told me the story the state senator had visited 898 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:38,799 Speaker 1: and the state senator was like, yeah, you know what 899 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:40,560 Speaker 1: health care looks like to me, I went out of 900 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 1: town and left my daughter with her grandparents and she 901 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,719 Speaker 1: had a stomach belly ache, and they didn't know what 902 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:47,200 Speaker 1: to do. They took her to the e er. She 903 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:51,400 Speaker 1: had gas. We gotta build for five thousand bucks. And 904 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,120 Speaker 1: the clinic director said, well, let me tell you. Let 905 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:57,080 Speaker 1: me tell you this story that happened when you had 906 00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,319 Speaker 1: this conversation. Had it happened. It had happened. The day 907 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,239 Speaker 1: before he got a call from a patient of his 908 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:07,080 Speaker 1: who's who had abdominal pain, and what the guy told 909 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:08,920 Speaker 1: him concerned him, and he said, I want you to 910 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,080 Speaker 1: come in now, and he part of the way they 911 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:13,880 Speaker 1: run this clinic is to make sure that their schedule 912 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:15,880 Speaker 1: has room in it to see people who need to 913 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,799 Speaker 1: be seen. That day, the guy came in and you know, 914 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,320 Speaker 1: the abdominal paint was was severe enough and we was 915 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:22,880 Speaker 1: spreading to the kind of the lower right quadrant of 916 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,319 Speaker 1: his ADMIN was like, I was concerned he had a pendicitis, 917 00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,600 Speaker 1: and you know, we did some quick tests here, but 918 00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,520 Speaker 1: the blood work he needed done we couldn't get done 919 00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,080 Speaker 1: the same day. So I said, what you're gonna do 920 00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:36,359 Speaker 1: is that you're gonna go to the hospital and go 921 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,879 Speaker 1: to the lab. I'm going to call them. They're gonna 922 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,200 Speaker 1: do this this screen for you, and I want you 923 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,600 Speaker 1: to stay in the waiting room of the lab until 924 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:47,799 Speaker 1: you hear from me. The guy went, he got the 925 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:49,799 Speaker 1: lab result and it came back positive. That guy had 926 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:53,960 Speaker 1: a pendicitis. And so the doctor, the director called the 927 00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:55,600 Speaker 1: guy and he said, this is what's going to happen. 928 00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,120 Speaker 1: I'm gonna get you seem by the surgeon at that hospital. 929 00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,200 Speaker 1: You're gonna have We're gonna deal with this. And the 930 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,480 Speaker 1: doctor called the surgeon and he said, so, this guy 931 00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,439 Speaker 1: has a pendicey. He's hitting the waiting room of the lab. 932 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,239 Speaker 1: They needed to see him today. And the surgeon was like, 933 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 1: we'll send him to the er and the director was like, no, 934 00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:13,440 Speaker 1: you know, there's nothing the e R can do for him. 935 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:15,160 Speaker 1: They would give him a cat scan, they would give 936 00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,279 Speaker 1: him more blood work, they would do other things, none 937 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,560 Speaker 1: of which is going to help him because we already 938 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,160 Speaker 1: know what's wrong with him. He's got a pendicidies needs surgery. 939 00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: So it can go one of two ways. You can 940 00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:27,839 Speaker 1: tell me when you can see him, or I will 941 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,120 Speaker 1: call the hospital because where because I've privileges there and 942 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:32,920 Speaker 1: I'll get him admitted and I'll ask for a surgical 943 00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,040 Speaker 1: consult and then you'll see him. It's gonna be one 944 00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,680 Speaker 1: of those two things. And I was like, okay, okay, okay, 945 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,960 Speaker 1: And you know, the patient got seen, you know, by 946 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,520 Speaker 1: the end of the day and had certain had laperscopic 947 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:48,120 Speaker 1: surgery by like six pm and was home by ten pm. 948 00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:50,320 Speaker 1: And what the what the clinic cary said, like, you know, 949 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,600 Speaker 1: the difference between your daughter and my patient is that 950 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:57,040 Speaker 1: my patient had a medical home where someone would see 951 00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:02,359 Speaker 1: him and know him and advocate for him. Yeah. I 952 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:06,160 Speaker 1: was gonna say, advocacy, having someone on your side to 953 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:07,640 Speaker 1: to go to bat for you and to tell you 954 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:09,960 Speaker 1: what the next step is is oftentimes kind of the 955 00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,000 Speaker 1: missing link in the step for people, especially going through 956 00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:16,920 Speaker 1: something that has immediacy or or something that they're completely 957 00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,640 Speaker 1: unfamiliar with. So that's a good story, and I really 958 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:23,200 Speaker 1: hope that the future of healthcare looks a little more 959 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,680 Speaker 1: like patients getting the advocacy that they need in order 960 00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:30,239 Speaker 1: to even just know the direction they need to go 961 00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,960 Speaker 1: in to get care and hopefully to cut costs at 962 00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,480 Speaker 1: the same time. Dan, this has been just a really, 963 00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,680 Speaker 1: really interesting conversation. We recommend your podcast and Arma a 964 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,759 Speaker 1: leg to to everybody listening, because, uh, it's it's just 965 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,839 Speaker 1: a fascinating expose on what's going on in the health 966 00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,919 Speaker 1: care industry in this country. And yet so so thank 967 00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:49,600 Speaker 1: you so much for joining us on the show today. 968 00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,040 Speaker 1: We really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Imagine, 969 00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:53,640 Speaker 1: I do just want to say, like you asked me, 970 00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:55,080 Speaker 1: what makes me hopeful? Like this is this is one 971 00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:57,280 Speaker 1: little clinic, you know, in one little part of Indiana, 972 00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:01,520 Speaker 1: serving a small community. But like I'm looking for what's 973 00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,319 Speaker 1: what can work, and so that's that's where that's where 974 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,399 Speaker 1: this show is going next. That's awesome, Dan. Yeah, we're 975 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:09,440 Speaker 1: really looking forward to the next season where you get 976 00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:11,480 Speaker 1: to hear from your listeners as far as you know 977 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,319 Speaker 1: what's working. We look forward to being in touch. Thanks Dan. 978 00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,400 Speaker 1: All Right, gel this is our conversation again with Dan Weisseman. 979 00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:21,359 Speaker 1: What is your big takeaway from this conversation. Yeah, I mean, 980 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,640 Speaker 1: I think the biggest takeaway that I got from this 981 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,759 Speaker 1: is despite how hard it is to be your own advocate, 982 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,040 Speaker 1: despite the fact that everything in the system seems to 983 00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,840 Speaker 1: be working against you, you have to be willing to 984 00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,279 Speaker 1: call the hospital and plead your case. You get to 985 00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,560 Speaker 1: be willing to step in and and try to negotiate 986 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,360 Speaker 1: a price for a bill down. And you have to 987 00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,799 Speaker 1: be willing to be a good consumer when it comes 988 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,479 Speaker 1: to healthcare. And it's really hard, Like like we talked 989 00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,200 Speaker 1: about in in the show, Matt, like, I feel like 990 00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:51,879 Speaker 1: everything's working against you in that regard. It's really hard 991 00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:53,759 Speaker 1: to be a good consumer. Prices are not clear, they're 992 00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,920 Speaker 1: not upfront, but there are little ways, subtle ways, and 993 00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,200 Speaker 1: and then big ways and after you've received a bill 994 00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:01,719 Speaker 1: that you can stand up for yourself and you just 995 00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,520 Speaker 1: you have to if you're going to win in any way, 996 00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:06,520 Speaker 1: form or fashion when it comes to the amount of 997 00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,560 Speaker 1: money that you're paying for for healthcare. Right, Yeah, I 998 00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,840 Speaker 1: cannot agree more. And for me, my big takeaway is 999 00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:15,280 Speaker 1: that we we have to be informed when it comes 1000 00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,239 Speaker 1: to the healthcare decisions that we make. Obviously, there's some 1001 00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,680 Speaker 1: instances where we cannot do all the research because there 1002 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,120 Speaker 1: is care that might be urgent that you need to 1003 00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,200 Speaker 1: take right away. But a lot of times when it 1004 00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:30,279 Speaker 1: especially when it comes to choosing healthcare and choosing which 1005 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,279 Speaker 1: plan to go with based on maybe a deductible and 1006 00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,520 Speaker 1: the different life events you have coming up. There are 1007 00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,359 Speaker 1: a lot of things to consider, and you know, it's 1008 00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:39,680 Speaker 1: worth reading the fine print to figure out what is 1009 00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:42,000 Speaker 1: covered what isn't covered. This is our health that we're 1010 00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,360 Speaker 1: talking about, and when so much money could be on 1011 00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:47,160 Speaker 1: the line, the responsibility does fall to us to be 1012 00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:49,440 Speaker 1: not only an advocate for ourselves, but to also to 1013 00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,480 Speaker 1: be informed and to know what we're getting ourselves into. Yeah, 1014 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,439 Speaker 1: no doubt, a little bit of preparation on the front 1015 00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:57,160 Speaker 1: end can save us a lot of money on the 1016 00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:58,840 Speaker 1: back end. And I know sometimes it can be like 1017 00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:01,239 Speaker 1: you're learning a new language when right you're getting into 1018 00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:03,160 Speaker 1: healthcare stuff. Yeah, all the terms. I mean, you really 1019 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,040 Speaker 1: are learning an entire glossary of definitions that you may 1020 00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,600 Speaker 1: not have even had to consider before. In particular, I'm 1021 00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:10,400 Speaker 1: thinking of all the twenty six year old that are 1022 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:12,560 Speaker 1: getting kicked off their parents plans, like this isn't something 1023 00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:14,080 Speaker 1: that they've had to deal with up until now, and 1024 00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:15,960 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you know, they're getting into their 1025 00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:18,080 Speaker 1: late twenties and they've got to figure out health insurance. 1026 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,080 Speaker 1: So it's a brave new world in a scary new world. 1027 00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,000 Speaker 1: And yeah, you have to ask questions. Um, and that's 1028 00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:24,640 Speaker 1: part of it, right too. Part of the path to 1029 00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:28,720 Speaker 1: being informed is asking questions, asking more questions of your doctor, 1030 00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:32,320 Speaker 1: of your insure, of your HR department maybe, and making 1031 00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,680 Speaker 1: sure that you have the information you need to make 1032 00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:38,520 Speaker 1: a decently well information right. I'm looking forward to having 1033 00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:41,400 Speaker 1: more episodes honestly dedicated towards healthcare where we can kind 1034 00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,480 Speaker 1: of pick it apart a little bit more and uh 1035 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:45,359 Speaker 1: and dive into the nuts and bolts. But for now, 1036 00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:47,319 Speaker 1: this is a fun interview to kick off this whole 1037 00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,200 Speaker 1: conversation into the healthcare for us. Yeah, alright, Matt, So 1038 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,560 Speaker 1: let's mention the beer that we had on the show today. 1039 00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:56,160 Speaker 1: It was SKB I p A from son King Brewery 1040 00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:59,359 Speaker 1: and this was donated to us by listener James. What 1041 00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,520 Speaker 1: were your thoughts on this beer, mat, Yeah, Joe. For me, 1042 00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,120 Speaker 1: this beer was just an all around great drink in 1043 00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,160 Speaker 1: I p A. I was reading on the can that 1044 00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:09,520 Speaker 1: it says it's brewed with American hops, and to me, 1045 00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:10,960 Speaker 1: that's kind of what it drinks like. It drinks like 1046 00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:13,520 Speaker 1: maybe not an Indian palele, but an American pale ale 1047 00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:17,160 Speaker 1: That might be a different style altogether, I think. But 1048 00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:18,560 Speaker 1: when I think of what this beer tastes like, it 1049 00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:20,840 Speaker 1: it really did taste like an American palele to me, 1050 00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:23,640 Speaker 1: And so that's what I'm gonna call it, all right. Yeah, man, 1051 00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:25,719 Speaker 1: I thought that this was a really good beer, really 1052 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:28,040 Speaker 1: good example of an I p A. From the Midwest. 1053 00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:31,000 Speaker 1: They take on these certain tones, and I feel like 1054 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:33,520 Speaker 1: this tasted like beers that I've had from the Midwest, 1055 00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,640 Speaker 1: like other beers from Indiana or or beers from Chicago. 1056 00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:39,400 Speaker 1: And honestly, to me, it was just a really clean 1057 00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:41,640 Speaker 1: I p A. I feel like the hops really really 1058 00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:45,239 Speaker 1: showed forth and the maltiness was subdued, and really it 1059 00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:47,719 Speaker 1: was just a clean example of an I p A. 1060 00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:49,640 Speaker 1: And yeah, I really enjoyed this one. A little bit 1061 00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:52,320 Speaker 1: of happiness, a little bit of maltiness. Nice, nice summer 1062 00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:54,640 Speaker 1: I p A. Yeah, no doubt. So thanks to listener 1063 00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:58,080 Speaker 1: James for sending this one our way. We appreciate it. Indianapolis. 1064 00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,640 Speaker 1: Thanks so much so, Joel. That's gonna it for this 1065 00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:02,839 Speaker 1: episode our show that it's gonna be found at how 1066 00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,000 Speaker 1: to money dot com. Yeah, and if you like the 1067 00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:06,799 Speaker 1: show and you found it helpful, and you know what, 1068 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:08,600 Speaker 1: you want to see the pictures of the beers that 1069 00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:10,879 Speaker 1: we drink on the show, well go check us out 1070 00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:14,160 Speaker 1: on Instagram. You can follow us at how to Money Pod. There, Matt, 1071 00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:16,960 Speaker 1: we reached over ten thou Instagram followers recently, which is 1072 00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,200 Speaker 1: kind of cool. Yeah, a few weeks ago. It's another 1073 00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:21,800 Speaker 1: mile marker, you know. We hit a hundred episodes several 1074 00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,160 Speaker 1: weeks ago, and so it's also fun to interact with 1075 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,319 Speaker 1: our listeners there on Instagram as well. So if you 1076 00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:28,239 Speaker 1: are on there, yeah, check us out at how to 1077 00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,960 Speaker 1: Money Pod. Sweet all right, buddy, Until next time, Best friends, 1078 00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:32,919 Speaker 1: Friends Out.