1 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan, Miami, Florida is probably 2 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 1: one of the most beautiful locations in the country that 3 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: I've personally visited. You know, you know, some people describe 4 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: locations like it as saying that everywhere you look is 5 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: essentially a postcard, you know, that kind of beautiful emerald 6 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: green water in the pure white sand and palm trees, 7 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: things that we don't normally see in these locations that 8 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:47,160 Speaker 1: we live in around the country. And I think when 9 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 1: we begin to think about you seek a place like 10 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: that to find peace and happiness, and you try to 11 00:00:55,800 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: live in that environment as if it is paradise. Life 12 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: gets in the way, he doesn't You begin to suddenly 13 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: realize that within paradise it can completely turn into a 14 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: horror show. Today we're going to talk about an only 15 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: fans model and her boyfriend who wound up in the 16 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: middle of a blood bath. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 17 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: this is Body Backs. Jackie Howard, executive producer with Crime 18 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: Stories Nancy Grace. I gotta tell you, every time I've 19 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: ever been to Miami, I've often thought, you know, what 20 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: in the world do you have to do? What kind 21 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: of what kind of money do you have to make 22 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: to live in a place like this. It's absolutely gorgeous. 23 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: You've got, you know, the salt air, You've got the 24 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: beautiful beach and can go walk up and down. It's exotic. 25 00:01:57,840 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: It looks like you're in the middle of the Caribbean, 26 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: and I guess some kind of a way you are. 27 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: But with Courtney Clinney and her boyfriend, it was anything 28 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: but perfection. It did end up being a nightmare, certainly 29 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: for this couple. Joe Courtney Clinney is an Only Fans 30 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 1: model and she has two million followers on Instagram, and 31 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: this may have been in part which paid for the 32 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: lifestyle that you're talking about. Joe Only Fans is a 33 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 1: subscriber account, and with two million followers, paying between five 34 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:37,239 Speaker 1: and fifty dollars a month for access to her content 35 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: would certainly make a comfortable lifestyle possible. Courtney Clinney was 36 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: dating Christian obum Selly. They had been living together for 37 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: a couple of years and inside this apartment that day 38 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 1: he left to go get Subway to get them some lunch. 39 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: During that time, Clenny made a couple of Instagram posts 40 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:04,679 Speaker 1: she called her mother, but when ob and Selly came back. Reportedly, 41 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: an argument ensued. We don't know what, but the argument 42 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: resulted in Courtney Clenny reportedly stabbing Christian OBM Selly and 43 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: we find out later that there had been multiple reports 44 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: of arguments coming from that household. But the biggest image 45 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: that is standing out from this alleged murder is a 46 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: photo of Clenny standing on their balcony and a bra 47 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: covered in blood. For you, for forensic scientists, for a 48 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: crom scene investigators, that's absolute gold because what do we 49 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: associate most with death investigation? I think that for the 50 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: average person on the street, other than simply a dead body, 51 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: it's going to be blood because it's one of those 52 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: things when you take a look at it, you think 53 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: about origin. You know, why is there such a huge 54 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: volume of blood? Why do you have it on your person? 55 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: You know from whence did it come? Because you know, 56 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: blood is essentially, aside from certain medical conditions, is only 57 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: going to be present as a result of some type 58 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: of trauma. And look, I've seen these images of Clinty 59 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: that were you know, put out there, you know by 60 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: TMZ we're actually quite striking. And for people that are 61 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: interested in true crime. This is something these are This 62 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: is a rare bird's eye view and it's literally a 63 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: bird's eye view because you can see it from whoever 64 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: shot this video was in an elevated position looking down 65 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: toward this balcony on this you know, on this apartment area. 66 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: And I want to back up just for a second. 67 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: We were talking about, you know, kind of some of 68 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: the details, and you know, people making money. It has 69 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: the alleged that the apartment that they were living in 70 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: at that time, if I'm not mistaken, was roughly in 71 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 1: the just hold onto your hat for a second, it 72 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: was roughly in the ten thousand dollars per month nut 73 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: that they had to make every month. Just let that 74 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 1: sink in just for a second. Can you imagine having 75 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 1: to come up with ten k every month just to 76 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: put a roof over your head? I mean, you know, 77 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: for average folks like us, you know, that's that's quite 78 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: a big number. You know, you're up in the thin air, 79 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: so you can only imagine there's a lot of pressure 80 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 1: in this environment to be able to generate that kind 81 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: of dough in order to live essentially, and that's you know, 82 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: that's that's just to have the roof over your head. 83 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 1: That doesn't account for everything else that that's involved with this. 84 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: So this is some type of lifestyle you know that 85 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: they're leading. And then when you put it in the 86 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: context that there has been a homicide that has been 87 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:11,799 Speaker 1: committed in this ten thousand dollars per month rental, all right, 88 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: and you're looking down on it, you get this kind 89 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: of bird's eye view and peek behind the curtains, if 90 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: you will, and you can see her seated there. It 91 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: looks like she might be cuffed, seated on the floor, 92 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: leaning back against the wall, and you can see dogs 93 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: or a dog I think, kind of walking up toward 94 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: her and then walking away. And even at that distance 95 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: with a grainy video, you can appreciate how much bloods 96 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: covering her. So it's an odd thing. And you can 97 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: see the police working in there. You can kind of 98 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: get faint images of uniform cops kind of moving about 99 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: and her kind of staring down, and you know, for 100 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: a moment, you know, you kind of detach yourself from 101 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: the forensics of it, and you begin to think, you know, 102 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: what the world's going through her mind at that moment. 103 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 1: Tom police came to the scene because of a nine 104 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: one one call, and in that nine one one call, 105 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: you can hear in the background Courtney Clinny saying I'm sorry, baby, 106 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. That would stand a reason that she is 107 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: the person who did this. Then we find her covered 108 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: with blood, so at that point we would have to 109 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: make a big assumption that she was the perpetrator, yet 110 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: she was not arrested for murder at that time. I've 111 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: often had cases where, you know, you have individuals that 112 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: are found at a scene that are encrusted with blood, 113 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: and this is kind of a very interesting point from 114 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: a forensic standpoint versus your individual humanity, because you know, 115 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: when you roll up on a scene as an investigator, 116 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: first off, you don't know what in the world has happened. 117 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: You didn't witness it. You've been summoned to the scene 118 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: as an investigator, and here you have this horrific environment, 119 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: and I think at a primal level, the first thing 120 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: you want to try to do is kind of push 121 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: it out of your mind. You see people that are 122 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: impacted by the same perhaps they are blood soaked, and 123 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: you know your human side, you want to say, here, 124 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: let me get you one towel, let me get you 125 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: some baby wipes. Or whatever it is that you're carrying 126 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: in your kit, and you know, clean yourself up, but 127 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: you have to fight that urge in this environment and 128 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: you say, well, Morgan, why would you want to do that? Well, 129 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: her Courtney Clinty. At this moment in tom she is 130 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: that point of contact where you know that she's going 131 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: to have evidence that she can give you verbally okay 132 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: as to what happened, because that's going to be one 133 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: of the biggest questions you're you're gonna want to have 134 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,959 Speaker 1: an answer for. But also there's another bigger tell here, 135 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: and that's the physical evidence that's contained on her body. 136 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: For every blood stain that she has on her person, 137 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: there is a tale to be told relative to that 138 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: point of contact, whether it is say, for instance, you 139 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: find your lover bleeding and you're trying to stem the 140 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 1: flow of blood. You're trying to soothe them, so you 141 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: draw them into you. And also you have to begin 142 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: to think, well, they're there and they might be responsible 143 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: for this, and the maybe, for instance, you've got an 144 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: arterial spray pattern that's very fine, it's very distinct that 145 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: has rested on the clothing. You need to keep that 146 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,959 Speaker 1: in pristine condition. One of the problems that happens many 147 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: times in cases like this. First off, police do not 148 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: keep an eye sometimes on a suspect because everybody's a 149 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: suspect at this moment time, and they allow them to 150 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: go into another location, into a bathroom, to wash their face, 151 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 1: wash their hands, you know, just to change clothes maybe 152 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: and not appropriately collect the clothing or you any opportunity 153 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: that the individual might have to you know, take away 154 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: these garments are adjust their appearance from its pristine condition. 155 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: That is that that condition they are in when you 156 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: initially observe them can compromise the entire narrative that the 157 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: evidence is trying to portray, you know, for what had 158 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: actually happened. So when you see her seated on the 159 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: floor there back to that image, that is a big tail. 160 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: First off, you know that the police are not allowing 161 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: her to clean herself up. So what do you do 162 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: with her at that point in time? Well, the best 163 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: thing you can do is is photograph, photograph, photograph, photograph, 164 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: And as distasteful as it is, and it is, you 165 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: don't allow her to wash her hands, you don't allow 166 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,439 Speaker 1: her to clean her face, you don't allow her to 167 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:15,319 Speaker 1: wipe her neck off, and you certainly don't allow her 168 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: to change clothing because in a case like this, that 169 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: information is going to be a treasure trove moving forward 170 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: as we begin to interpret what actually happened in that apartment. 171 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: One call, you could also hear o hum Sally saying 172 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: that he was losing feeling in his arm and that 173 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: he was dying. And that's when you hear Clinny say, 174 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry baby. So when the police arrived, you 175 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:51,239 Speaker 1: were talking about this arterial spray Joe and we suspect 176 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: that there was allegedly a fight between the two and 177 00:11:55,800 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: that's what resulted in his death. So what would the 178 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: police have seen? She was covered in blood, but with 179 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: the apartment have also been covered in blood. When the police, 180 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: you know, make this initial entry into this environment, they 181 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: will see copious and I'll you know, that's that's a 182 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: term that pathologists love to use, which just means a lot, okay, 183 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: copious amount of blood that will probably be pulled in 184 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 1: certain locations. Go back to what Obsellia actually said or 185 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: could be heard saying, I can't I can't feel anything, 186 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: you know, I'm losing the feeling in my extremities. And 187 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: this is something that is encountered with blood loss. As 188 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, that's that's he's probably becoming what's 189 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: referred to as shocky at that moment in time. He's 190 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: going into shock. His pallor will change, that is his complexion. 191 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: It'll look kind of washed out, does and have the 192 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 1: vibrance that he would have had, you know, in a 193 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: healthy state. He'll become delirious in this sort of thing, 194 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: and he's not going to be moving around a lot. 195 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: So where he finally comes to rest is going to 196 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: be kind of the end game as far as he 197 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: is concerned. However, in an initial attack, let's say he 198 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: was seated on a sofa. When his body is first 199 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: breached with an instrument, like a sharp instrument, there will 200 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:35,719 Speaker 1: if that weapon is withdrawn, you will see a tremendous 201 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: amount of blood that will initially kind of come out 202 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: of the body at that point in time. And his 203 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: response to this, it's kind of a primal response. You know, 204 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: you feel the sharpness of the pain as an instrument 205 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: penetrate your body, and you reach up to kind of 206 00:13:55,360 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: assess it yourself. Blood transfers to your hands. You may 207 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: clutch your chest, you may try to brace yourself. You 208 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: may try to reach forward and if there's an attack 209 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 1: or you're going to grab them, so you're actually transferring 210 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: your own blood to the individual that has struck a 211 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: blow against you. Then you know, your instinct tells you 212 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: to get away from that initial contact, from that point 213 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: in which you were attacked or you perceive yourself to 214 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: be attacked. And as that happens, your body is twisting, 215 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: turning this sort of thing. And if the object, for instance, 216 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: a knife, is not still in place and it's been 217 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: removed from that location, you will have blood that is 218 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: either slowly coming out of the body or spurting. Okay, 219 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: And I think that in this case, you sustained an 220 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: arterial breach at that moment time. Now some of that 221 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: blood is going to remain within the body, but a 222 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: goodly portion of that is going to begin to come 223 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: through that defect. In this case, I believe that it 224 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: is a sharper horse injury, So it'll be a knife 225 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: a knife injury. And if folks at home will think 226 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: about the way an eye, a human eye looks when 227 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: it's closed. Many times, if you've never actually seen a 228 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: stab wound in person, if you will close one of 229 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: your eyes and stare in a mirror and look at 230 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: kind of how your upper lid and your lower lid 231 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: form this kind of slit like appearance. That's what multiple 232 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: stab wounds are. Even singular stab wounds look like. It'll 233 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: come to a very pronounced point on one end, almost 234 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: like a closed eye, particularly if it is a single 235 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: edged weapon, and so you can have quite a bit 236 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: of blood coming forth from that injury if an artery 237 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: is struck, and so every time the heart beats, essentially okay, 238 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: you will have forced blood out of that defect. And 239 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: that's what in the world of forensic pathology these are 240 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: referred to as it'll be probably a linear defect, meaning 241 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: line the blood will kind of spurt out. It will 242 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: come out in a spray, because that's the way it's 243 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: coursing through your body at that moment time. Remember reason 244 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: not dead. Okay, Art's still pumping, he's still breathing. So 245 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: it's being forced out, and as it's being forced out, 246 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: it's almost like the spray of a water hose. Okay, 247 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: it's not really greatly directed, it's not targeted, say like 248 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: a bullet coming out of a gun. It's kind of 249 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: sprayed indiscriminately, and you'll see these patterns that have almost 250 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: a histamine like appearance to that to it. Many times, 251 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: it's as it's spraying out like the end of a 252 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: water hose, and it's contacting multiple surfaces over a broad 253 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: ranging area. And you can kind of track these or 254 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: trail them depended upon the movement of the body. And 255 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: as of course, more blood is lost, there will be 256 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: a less of volume of blood that's coming from this injury. 257 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: You know, remember he said I couldn't you know, I 258 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 1: can't fill my arms. And as a shock begins to 259 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: set in those areas where he has moved about as 260 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: a result of this injury will come to a terminus. 261 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: It'll end right there where he finally dies or goes 262 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: into a kind of a static position on the floor 263 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: where he can no longer move. He would get very 264 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: very sleepy, drowsy, that sort of thing. As blood, you know, 265 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: has begun to leach out of his body, he's not 266 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: getting sufficient oxygenation to his brain. Now what comes into 267 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 1: play at this moment in time is what efforts did 268 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:55,360 Speaker 1: Clintie make. Did she attempt to resuscitate him? And if 269 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: she did, then that would mean that envision her hands 270 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 1: in center somebody's chest as you're doing chess compressions, and 271 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: you're immediately adjacent to this insult in the chest, this 272 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 1: open wound. And every time think about this, every compression 273 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: that you make, that is, every time you press down 274 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 1: on the chest, a little bit of blood is going 275 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,959 Speaker 1: to leach out. Okay, and as that happens, it's going 276 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: to transfer to your hands. Okay, I got to stop 277 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: you for a second. I want to understand something you 278 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: just said. You said blood is going to leach out. 279 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: When you use that term, and I've heard you use 280 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: it often, do you mean a little trickle do you 281 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: mean a spurt? Give me a mental image to think 282 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: about when you say blood is gonna leach out, Well, 283 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 1: when it leaches out. Many times, you know, people will 284 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: associate leaching with kind of oozing. Okay, But when I'm 285 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: saying leaching out, particularly when you're talking about chess compressions 286 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: on somebody that has an insult, it's not going to 287 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: spray as much as say an artisal spray, where the 288 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 1: heart is still pumping it but you're pressing it out, 289 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,640 Speaker 1: it's a bit more sluggish, and it will still transfer 290 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: that blood that is still caught up in those vessels 291 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: in that area where where he has been injured, that 292 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: blood will still come out. You're forcing it. Remember every 293 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: compression that you generate, you're an external pump. If you're 294 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: the one that ministering CPR, you're an external pump now 295 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 1: and you're pumping that remainder, that residual blood out of 296 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: the body, and it transfers onto your hands and essentially 297 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: it leaches onto your hands and everybody can understand, you know, 298 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: kind of the tackiness of blood. You can't get it 299 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: off of you. Blood is not a standalone, one off substance. 300 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: It's a it's a it's a substance that has multiple 301 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: components to it. As a matter of fact, if it 302 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: doesn't continue to circulate, if it just sits on the floor, 303 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 1: for instance, after a period of time. What's really fascinating. 304 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: One of the things that we look at in depth 305 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: investigation is you will actually see and this is kind 306 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: of cool, you'll actually see the red blood cells and 307 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: you can visually see this. You can see the red 308 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: blood cells begin to separate out from the serum. So 309 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: you'll have over period of time and we really haven't 310 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: fine tuned this enough to know, you know, if we're 311 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 1: going to use this, it's like a part of assessing 312 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: post mortal interval, that is the time since death. But 313 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: we do know that over period of time, the red 314 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:41,479 Speaker 1: blood cells will migrate away from the serum and the 315 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: serum is clear, you know, it's it's kind of clear, 316 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: it's got kind of a yellow tinge to it, and 317 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: you'll see it begin to kind of migrate away because 318 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 1: it's no longer mixing, you know, and just think about that. 319 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: You know, as the body is pumping the blood through 320 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: the body and it's being oxygenated and it's traveling throughout 321 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: the body, it's essentially mixing and stain mixed in that 322 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: state like that. But after it's out of the body, 323 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 1: it begins to kind of separate out into its individual 324 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,400 Speaker 1: components at that moment time. So with what you're describing 325 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: right there, Joe, with the blood separating and the way 326 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: that it's going to look outside the body, what would 327 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: it look like on Clintie herself, Because the image looks 328 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: like somebody drinsed her in red paint. It really does. 329 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: It looks like somebody dipped a paint brush and a 330 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: big bucket of pin paint and just kind of randomly, 331 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 1: you know, wiped it all across our person. And again 332 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 1: that's you got to temper that a little bit because remember, 333 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: you know that image that we're looking at at that moment, 334 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: Thomas is from above and it looks like it's from 335 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: across the way, so it's that kind of a distance, 336 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: so it's it's hard to appreciate detail. But when you're 337 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: up on her in person, and are when they would 338 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,719 Speaker 1: have been up on her, that is the authorities in person, 339 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: you could visibly see the changes in the blood. It 340 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: begins to kind of darken as it's contacting the various 341 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 1: surfaces of her clothing along her face, her hands, and 342 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 1: the nature of it is changing because it's now outside 343 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 1: of the body, and there is a color change. Many 344 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: times that that image that they took I think was 345 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 1: probably early on, and if if she were to have 346 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: been allowed to stay, you know, there, and you could 347 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 1: kind of photograph her over a progression of time, you 348 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: would see that the color would have changed. Blood is 349 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: always changing, you know, in these scenes and on individual persons, 350 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: and it's it's very fragile too. As it begins to dry, 351 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 1: it will begin to flake crack. First you actually see 352 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: it cracking the stained area, and then it will begin 353 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: to flake as it's interacting with the world outside of 354 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: the body. So it's a very dynamic substance. You have 355 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: to be swift in your assessment. You have to be 356 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: swift in your documentation. That is particularly you want to 357 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: try to get this person photographed as quickly as you 358 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: can from as many different perspectives as you can, demonstrating 359 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 1: all surfaces of their person, and try to retrieve that 360 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 1: clothing and keep it as intact as you can because 361 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 1: you don't know what's going to be on there. I mean, 362 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: there's any number of things that can be on that clothing, 363 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,439 Speaker 1: chief among them other than the blood. You know, you 364 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: can have hair that you would expect to find her 365 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:35,239 Speaker 1: hair contained on her clothing. But this poor man, you know, 366 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: you would also potentially find his hair. Now they're in 367 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,880 Speaker 1: an intimate relationship, so you would expect maybe to find 368 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: trace elements of his hair that have sloughed off of 369 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: his body, maybe even his skin. But when you find 370 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: say the blood that's there that has kind of encrusted 371 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: on that clothing, and you have hair, his hair caught 372 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 1: up in multiple locations. You know that there was in 373 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: those little dried of blood. You know that there's something 374 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: very dynamic that has gone on. I will continue to 375 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: beat this drum about time. Time for an investigator is 376 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: the most precious asset that we possess, and if you 377 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: can have a documented timeline that marries up with what 378 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 1: you believe may have happened, it's like finding gold from 379 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: an investigative standpoint, And in this case, Jackie, I think 380 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: that the police have done a fine job and kind 381 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: of pinning down a rough timeline of these events. The 382 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 1: timeline that police have laid out in this investigation is 383 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: that Christian Obemselly came back into the apartment around four 384 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: thirty three PM. At four forty three, Courtney Clinny calls 385 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: her mother and she's on the phone with her mother 386 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 1: just over six minutes. At four forty nine, Clinny makes 387 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 1: a second call to her mother and they spoke until 388 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 1: four fifty six pm. That's a little over seven minutes, 389 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: so that makes it four fifty six pm. At four 390 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: fifty seven pm, Clinny calls nine one one. So given 391 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: that timeline, Joe, what does that tell you about when 392 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: this assault actually occurred. According to the tomline that the 393 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: police have released in this case, we have to think 394 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: about what was Obamselly doing. Well, he had left the 395 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: apartment and at and had been gone for quite some time. 396 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: There was some contact between these two, that is Clinian 397 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: open Sally via a phone and it was during that 398 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: conversation that apparently he agreed to go and pick up 399 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: food from Subway Subway restaurant. He's going to go grab 400 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: sandwiches and it's at the moment that he hits the 401 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: door when he returns back into the apartment roughly according 402 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: to the police, at four thirty two pm, there was 403 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: a fight that ensued and this happened, you know, rather quickly. 404 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: And it's it's curious here that it we don't really 405 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: know according to the police, what sparked us off at 406 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: that moment time. But something occurred relative to his Maybe 407 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 1: it happened when he was going to get the sandwiches. 408 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: Maybe they had had in that initial phone call before 409 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: he you know, robbed, Maybe they have spat um he 410 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 1: returns back to the apartment. According to the police, they 411 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: have put forth this narrative that while open Sally was 412 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: out of the apartment, she was taping. Now. I don't 413 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 1: know if this was for her fan accounts or if 414 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 1: there was some kind of issue, you know, related to that, 415 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,120 Speaker 1: but something sparked us off and it was at that 416 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: moment in time. There's kind of this this brief moment 417 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: in time that you know, roughly according to the timeline 418 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: that the police had laid out, it would have happened 419 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: in an instant. I think that this attack, if as 420 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: the police have laid it out, would have would have occurred, 421 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,880 Speaker 1: perhaps with him being completely unaware of what was about 422 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: to have happened. And I think that that's that's what 423 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: they have spent so much time. You know, Jackie had 424 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier they didn't arrest her initially. I think that 425 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,360 Speaker 1: they've spent a lot of time trying to sort this out, 426 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 1: that that actual brief window of time has kind of 427 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 1: stumped them to try to get the fact straight in 428 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: this particular story, to try to understand what could have 429 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,400 Speaker 1: kicked this thing off, what would have initiated such a 430 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 1: violent act having taken place. Police saying that Clenny told 431 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:34,120 Speaker 1: them that she was defending herself. So let's look at 432 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: the actual injuries that obum Selly sustained he was stabbed 433 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 1: with a six inch knife. So describe for me Joe 434 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: where he was stabbed, what body parts would have been affected, 435 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: Why he was not feeling his arm any longer. Explain 436 00:28:54,920 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: that for me, Joe. When his wound was assessed, it's 437 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 1: quite fascinating, I found because it's a single it's a 438 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: single injury. And just think about that just for a 439 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: second or end. He's a big guy. If you've never 440 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: seen an image of these two together, I beg you 441 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: check it out online. He's a big, powerful guy. And 442 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: I'm not saying she's completely diminutive or anything, but there 443 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: is a size a differential here, a significant He's well muscled, 444 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: big guy. These two people are in pretty good physical condition. 445 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: And it's with a single blow that he was essentially 446 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: struck down. The injury that the Miami Dade Medical Examiner's 447 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: Office was able to assess on him, you know, stated 448 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: that the track of this wound. You had mentioned that 449 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: this is a six inch blade, and the blade itself, 450 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: he's got a rated edge on it, which gives you 451 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: an indication this is probably something you used, you know, 452 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: in a household, we generally see serrated edges, you know, 453 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: for state knives. Okay, this thing penetrated according to Miami 454 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: Dade's office, three inches. Now you've got a six inch blade. 455 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know that listeners understand how much 456 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: strength it takes to force the entirety of a blade 457 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: into somebody's body. You're talking about pressing, pressing six inches 458 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: of steel into a human's body where you're passing through 459 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: connective tissue, muscle, perhaps you're nicking bone at that point 460 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: in time, and then any kind of organ systems that 461 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: might be in dwelling beneath there, and that that doesn't 462 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: even begin to count the vessels, which in this case 463 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: is what we're compromised. If if our listeners, and we've 464 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: talked about this on body backs before with other cases, 465 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: and it's amazing how it continues to come up, and 466 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: it came up in my career. You know this particular vessel, 467 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: it's it runs beneath the collar bone. So if everybody 468 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: at home and the initial reports have come out and 469 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: said it was left side, but it turns out it's 470 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: right side. It's the collar bone, which is referred to 471 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: as the clavical and you can feel this at the 472 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: base of your neck. It's kind of this long tubular 473 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: bone that is one of the structures that holds you, 474 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: holds our head in place, and it holds our shoulders up, 475 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: this sort of thing, and it's antier, which means it's 476 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: on the front of the body. There is a complex 477 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: of vessels that run beneath the clavical and one in 478 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: particular that's called the subclave, which sub meaning below the 479 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: subclave artery, our subclavicular artery. And in this case, open sally, 480 00:31:55,480 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: this knife was driven through the subclavicular artery and it wasn't. 481 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: And this is significant. The track of this thing, and 482 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: we track knife wounds in forensics, just like we do 483 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: bullet wounds. They have a path or a track, and 484 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: the path of this blade passing beneath his clavicle and 485 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: through the subclave is downward, downward. And that's very important 486 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: to understand why well it is because remember what I 487 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: said just a second ago. This is a big guy. 488 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: He's big man. He's not some tiny little guy. He's 489 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: a big man. And here we have his partner here 490 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: that is significantly shorter than he. So that leads us 491 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: to believe that perhaps, just perhaps he was in an 492 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: asymmetrical position relative to her where if what the police 493 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: are opining and they're putting forward, she would have had 494 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: to have been in a dominant position above him. And 495 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: this is called a symmetry, which you know, things are 496 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: kind of out of whack. You got one thing that's 497 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: above the other and the other thing below is the 498 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: target area that's being attacked. So the knife would have 499 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,719 Speaker 1: had to have been raised from above and dropped down, Okay, 500 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: dropped down in a single blow. So what would have 501 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: happened is is that the knife itself would have passed 502 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: beneath the collar bone and tracked through this vessel complex. 503 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: Because I'm sure it wasn't just the subclavicular artery that 504 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: got nicked. There were other little associated arteries that probably 505 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: got clipped as well. Our body is is you know, 506 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: there's there's webs of you know, capillary beds and on 507 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: these things you know they're passing through that are supplying 508 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: you know, oxygenated blood and taking away blood that's that 509 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: needs to be replenished with oxygen. And you've got all 510 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: of these little fields of vessels that are being compromised 511 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: as well. But the subclave is certainly the most prominent 512 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: among these and it's got a tremendous amount of internal 513 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: pressure that's being placed upon it every time the heart 514 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: pushes out blood. Keep that in mind. So you've clipped, 515 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 1: You've clipped this vessel that is supplying blood to that 516 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,959 Speaker 1: particular side of the body. Remember what did he say? 517 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 1: He said that, you know, you could hear him in 518 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 1: the background. I'm I'm getting numb. I'm getting numb. You 519 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: know I can't I can't feel my extremities. Well, no, 520 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: you can't feel your extremities at that point because you're 521 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 1: no longer receiving blood flow. He would have also felt 522 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 1: very cold as well, at least his perception, his internal 523 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: thermometer would have been telling him. You know, I'm chilly, 524 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: I'm shivering. You know, that's one of the reasons need 525 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: you wrap people in blankets that are going into shock 526 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. So here's the important question 527 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:04,280 Speaker 1: in this attack. Joe Courtney Clinny reportedly told police that 528 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 1: she first threw the knife and it hit o hum Selly, 529 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: that they were having the argument. She was acting in 530 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: self defense because he grabbed her, he choked her and 531 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: throw her to the ground. She ran to the kitchen. 532 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: She grabbed the knife and threw it and hit O. Um, 533 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: selling is that possible with what we know now from 534 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: the Emmy? I gotta say this on the side. When 535 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: I first heard this, it took me back till a 536 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 1: moment when I was a kid and I used to 537 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: love Western movies. One of my favorite Western movies of 538 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: all times a classic Magnificent Seven, and James Coburn was 539 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: in that movie. And each one of these guys have 540 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: a specialty, and his specialty was throwing knives, and it 541 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: was amazing. You know when you're a kid and you 542 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: see him throw knives and you know he's taking down 543 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,320 Speaker 1: all these bad guys in the movie. And that's somebody 544 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: that is portrayed with a tremendous amount level of skill 545 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 1: at doing this, and in my estimation at least, it 546 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 1: would be a one in a million shot. In order 547 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: to do this, first off, you'd have to know how 548 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: to throw the knife. And there is a very particular 549 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: way of throwing a knife and throwing knives or generally 550 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: throwing knives. There that's actually a thing throwing knives. These 551 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 1: knives are balanced in a very particular way, and then 552 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 1: you can have a balanced throwing knife. But if the 553 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: thrower is not skilled and can target these things, you know, 554 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 1: you might as well be throwing pebbles at somebody. It 555 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: would be a one in a million shot. So no, 556 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: I don't see how that is possible. And the fact 557 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: that you would have to get this knife. Remember what 558 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: the emmy said. The em he said that you got 559 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: three inches of penetration. That's a tremendous amount of power 560 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 1: going through this very powerful man's chest. He appears to 561 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: be very well muscled, particularly in his pack area, you know, 562 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 1: in the muscles of his chest, and so you have 563 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 1: to pass through that three inches. I mean, you're talking 564 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 1: about getting down into the chest cavity at this moment 565 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: in the time, So that I think that that's that's 566 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: rather fantastical when you begin to think about possibility that 567 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: that could have even have occurred, and you know, the 568 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,359 Speaker 1: police would have assessed this. They certainly would have gone 569 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,839 Speaker 1: to the medical examiner and said, you know, hey, doc, 570 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 1: is this physically possible? Can this actually occurs? Can you 571 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: take the knife that we have from the scene, and 572 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: can it be thrown and generate this kind of injury? 573 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: And you know, the medical examiner apparently has opine that 574 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: that's that that's just not the case. Let me give 575 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,320 Speaker 1: you a quick word picture here and an exam ample 576 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: of something. And it's not the same as throwing a knife. 577 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: But you know all these bars that are out here 578 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,399 Speaker 1: where people are, you know, are throwing tomahawks at these 579 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 1: wooden targets, hatchets, you know that they're throwing you know, 580 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: people drink and they throw these things. Watch how those 581 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: people throw those instruments. And just how much power it 582 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: takes to get one of those to stick. And when 583 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 1: it sticks, it has to catch on a particular edge, 584 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 1: a leading edge of this thing, and then it doesn't 585 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 1: go in really really deep most of the time. But 586 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 1: you don't have to, you know, put your foot on 587 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 1: it to try to pry it out or anything like that. 588 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 1: And how much more so with one of these knives. 589 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 1: And that's what she is putting forth. Another really significant 590 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,319 Speaker 1: thing here. You know, we talked about the assessment of 591 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:53,800 Speaker 1: her and the blood evidence that was on her person. 592 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 1: Well she's indicating, according to the police, that he open 593 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: sally allegedly attacked her. Well what does that mean. Well, 594 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,440 Speaker 1: first off, it means that he attacked her that you know, 595 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 1: I don't think it was a verbal attack, because she 596 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: actually says that he attempted to choke her. Again, I 597 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: go back, this guy's very powerful. Did she tell the 598 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,760 Speaker 1: police officers that initially when they arrived at the scene, 599 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,759 Speaker 1: because if she did, there's got to be pictures of 600 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 1: her neck. If he threatened her to the point where 601 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,319 Speaker 1: he put his hands on her neck and begin to 602 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 1: squeeze in that early, in those early moments that investigation, 603 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,919 Speaker 1: there would have probably been evidence of that. You would 604 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: have seen a red irritated area around her throat, around 605 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,480 Speaker 1: her neck, and then that would have turned into classically 606 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,319 Speaker 1: what we would call a bruise or a contusion in 607 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,439 Speaker 1: that area where he's squeezing his powerful hands around her neck. 608 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: I'd want to know if the police did that assessment 609 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: and they were able to conclude that, yeah, there was 610 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 1: an attack here, that we saw evidence of that, or 611 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: that we didn't see evidence of that, because it's something 612 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 1: that would stand out like a sore thumb. If events 613 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 1: happened as Clinny first alleged to police that she was 614 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,839 Speaker 1: protecting herself and that she threw the knife and hit 615 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:26,320 Speaker 1: him and hit of him. Selly, would the blood patterns 616 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 1: have been different? You know, I'd have to say that 617 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: that there would be if you're talking about throwing the knife. 618 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:41,320 Speaker 1: First off, I think that the injury itself would appear 619 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 1: completely different. And this is why you have to assume that. 620 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,160 Speaker 1: Let's think about shooting an arrow. If you're shooting an 621 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,320 Speaker 1: arrow at a target, and that arrow is going down range, 622 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 1: it's staying kind of on a flat plane. There'll be 623 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 1: slight deviation, it'll arc and that sort of thing, but 624 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:05,120 Speaker 1: it's kind of on a plane, like an eyeline plane, 625 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 1: you know, traveling in that direction, the injury would present 626 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:14,480 Speaker 1: completely different. First off, the track itself would not be 627 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:21,360 Speaker 1: from above to below, which is what we have according 628 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:23,719 Speaker 1: to the medical examiner in this case, it would be 629 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: from what you would call front to back or anterior 630 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: tracking posterior, going from you know, beneath the clavical so 631 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,879 Speaker 1: that it's headed toward the shoulder blade, if you will. 632 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:43,360 Speaker 1: That's not what's occurring here. As far as blood patterns, 633 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 1: Assuming that she could throw the knife and it would 634 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: have stuck into or compromise the structural integrity of that 635 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:57,720 Speaker 1: vessel in there, the subclave, I don't know that the 636 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,320 Speaker 1: blood patterns themselves would have been any different. But the 637 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,479 Speaker 1: wound track itself would have been markedly different. You would 638 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 1: have seen come to something completely different than what the medicals, 639 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 1: and they're sold that autopsy. You know, police officers never 640 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,600 Speaker 1: know what they're walking into, you know, and they always 641 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:39,600 Speaker 1: say that, you know, domestic cases, and I agree, I agree, 642 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:44,760 Speaker 1: are always the most dangerous situations you can walk into 643 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,800 Speaker 1: and look, the cops are not there twenty four seven 644 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:54,360 Speaker 1: to see what happens in a family dynamic, a relationship dynamic. 645 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,759 Speaker 1: They're there after the fact most of the time, or 646 00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,840 Speaker 1: they're there when the thing has just come to a 647 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,480 Speaker 1: complete and total head and people are screaming and yelling 648 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 1: and you've got you know, things being broken, and people 649 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 1: are injured and maybe even dead. But in this case, 650 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,320 Speaker 1: you know, you've got to go to the neighbors because 651 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,880 Speaker 1: it's an intimate environment. We're not talking about this is 652 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,680 Speaker 1: a standalone structure, you know, where you know you've got 653 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,280 Speaker 1: a white picket fence around the house. No, you're living 654 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,520 Speaker 1: in an apartment. You're living in an apartment. That means 655 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,640 Speaker 1: you have people above you, below you, to the left, 656 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,960 Speaker 1: to the right, They see you in the hallway and 657 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:37,160 Speaker 1: sometimes your best source information are the people that inhabit 658 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 1: the space around you. Well, in Courtney Clinny's case, the 659 00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:46,320 Speaker 1: people that came forward, we're friends and neighbors who reported 660 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:50,920 Speaker 1: seeing and hearing a lot of violence coming not just 661 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 1: from the apartment but throughout the couples to your career. 662 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,759 Speaker 1: And then we have the video of Courtney Clinney of 663 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:04,960 Speaker 1: assaulting of um Selly in an elevator. Now keep in 664 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,719 Speaker 1: mind again, everyone is innocent until proving guilty. This case 665 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:13,680 Speaker 1: has not been adjudicated yet. We're discussing the evidence that 666 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:18,719 Speaker 1: may come forward in a twial. So how is this 667 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:26,080 Speaker 1: video Joe and witness statements of assault and fights and 668 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:32,799 Speaker 1: physical attacks going to play into this case. It's a 669 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:38,480 Speaker 1: treasure trove, I think. And when this does go to trial, 670 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:44,040 Speaker 1: you're going to see a succession of not just eyewitnesses, 671 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,920 Speaker 1: but in this particular case, you're gonna have ear witnesses. 672 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 1: And I think anybody that among our listeners that have 673 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,600 Speaker 1: ever lived in an apartment, that's the biggest drawback, isn't it. 674 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,760 Speaker 1: You know you hear people, you know you you got heavy, 675 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:04,879 Speaker 1: heavy footed people you know that live above you, people 676 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:07,560 Speaker 1: that play loud music, people that bang around in the 677 00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:09,799 Speaker 1: middle of the night when you're trying to you know, 678 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,319 Speaker 1: catch some sleep. But the things that always stand out 679 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:15,759 Speaker 1: are those those sounds that pass through the wall. And 680 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,319 Speaker 1: you know, we're sharp enough as human beings to pick 681 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,279 Speaker 1: up I think even in stressors and people's voices, you know, 682 00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,120 Speaker 1: the rise and the fall of the pitch of a voice, 683 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,680 Speaker 1: and not just that, but what's being verbalized, you know, 684 00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,760 Speaker 1: the threats and all of that stuff will will come 685 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,200 Speaker 1: to light, I think, you know, during the course of this. 686 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:37,960 Speaker 1: And then you know this, you top all of this 687 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,360 Speaker 1: off with this imagery which I gotta tell you, you 688 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 1: know it was It gave me pause. You know, this 689 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,720 Speaker 1: elevator image that has been floating around out there, and 690 00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:52,600 Speaker 1: you know, when you see this thing, the capture, the 691 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:57,279 Speaker 1: video capture that they have, you know, Cleany, you know, 692 00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:01,360 Speaker 1: first comes into frame and it looks like she's, you know, 693 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:03,960 Speaker 1: dressed in maybe a bra or sports bra, I can't 694 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,560 Speaker 1: really tell on a pair of you know, like sleeping 695 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:12,960 Speaker 1: pants or something like this, and she's it's the elevator 696 00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:16,719 Speaker 1: itself looks like something out of Star Trek. You know, 697 00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,480 Speaker 1: it's a nice it's like high tech kind of thing, 698 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:23,040 Speaker 1: and there's this big touch pad wall that's brightly lit, 699 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,759 Speaker 1: and she's frustrated. You can see her just like pounding 700 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,200 Speaker 1: on the board itself, trying to get it to respond. 701 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:35,360 Speaker 1: And almost immediately, you know, Obam Selly comes around the 702 00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:39,480 Speaker 1: corner and walks in and he attempts to assist with 703 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:41,959 Speaker 1: the board, and it's at that moment time you see 704 00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,040 Speaker 1: her strike out at him again. You know, you know 705 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,359 Speaker 1: how I was talking about earlier, how you can see 706 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,080 Speaker 1: kind of a physical difference, you know, between between Obam 707 00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,360 Speaker 1: Selly and Cleaney. You know he's a big guy, but 708 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,000 Speaker 1: you know in that image how he kind of comes 709 00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,400 Speaker 1: off as like this genteral Johnt. I don't know how 710 00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:03,160 Speaker 1: I would react. She's striking him, I mean, she's she's hitting. 711 00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,920 Speaker 1: She grabs his hair, pulls his head back a little bit. 712 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:07,960 Speaker 1: You can see he kind of wins this, and guess 713 00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:13,800 Speaker 1: what he does. He puts his arm around her and 714 00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,359 Speaker 1: kind of secures her adjacent to his body so that 715 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:22,640 Speaker 1: she can't strike him. But I never see him in 716 00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:26,879 Speaker 1: that video image raise his hand to her. I never 717 00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,800 Speaker 1: see him put his hands around her throat. I never 718 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:34,160 Speaker 1: see him bang her off the wall. And so I 719 00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,560 Speaker 1: think that as that is being played before the court. 720 00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:41,280 Speaker 1: I think that it's it's gonna really tell a tale, 721 00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,520 Speaker 1: and I think that the jury will certainly have enough 722 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:48,120 Speaker 1: information to chew on in that event. How do you 723 00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:56,520 Speaker 1: distinguish between this he said, she said scenario? You have 724 00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:00,759 Speaker 1: Courtney Clenny who has said more than once that he 725 00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,640 Speaker 1: was abusive and that he assaulted her, and then you 726 00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,359 Speaker 1: have video evidence and his friends and hers as well, 727 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:13,399 Speaker 1: saying well we saw her hitting him. He didn't hit back, 728 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:18,160 Speaker 1: but we saw her hitting him. How do you weigh 729 00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,640 Speaker 1: that in the testimony? Well, you know, and I think 730 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:26,000 Speaker 1: that probably counsel and I've seen this happen in court 731 00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:31,319 Speaker 1: cases I've covered. They famously say, particularly the prosecution, they'll say, 732 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:33,880 Speaker 1: you know, you can say anything about the dead. You know, 733 00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:38,560 Speaker 1: they can't defend themselves at that moment time. And I 734 00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:44,040 Speaker 1: think from an avid inter standpoint, when you hear about 735 00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:48,040 Speaker 1: putting forth the narrative that she had been attacked, one 736 00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:53,880 Speaker 1: of the questions that would be brought up is where's 737 00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,400 Speaker 1: the evidence of attack? And I'm talking about how is 738 00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:00,920 Speaker 1: that physically demonstrated over this to year period. You know, Okay, 739 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,600 Speaker 1: you say you've been attacked, You say that you've been assaulted, 740 00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:05,760 Speaker 1: that you're in fear of your life and all those 741 00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:09,160 Speaker 1: things that they say, how has that demonstrated? Has it 742 00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:14,600 Speaker 1: manifested itself physically over that same period of time? And 743 00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:18,399 Speaker 1: if that is what you move forward with, if that's 744 00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:20,600 Speaker 1: the narrative that you put forward, you know, from the 745 00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,440 Speaker 1: perspective of the defense, defense is going to have to 746 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:25,680 Speaker 1: you know, put that out there. They're going to have 747 00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,719 Speaker 1: to demonstrate that. You know, on this day she went 748 00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:31,800 Speaker 1: to the clinic. And look, I mean, this is something 749 00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,520 Speaker 1: that we do in forensics all the time, you know, 750 00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,719 Speaker 1: particularly when we think about abuse cases, and my mind 751 00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:42,280 Speaker 1: always drifts drifts back because they're the most defenseless among us, 752 00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:46,239 Speaker 1: our young children, you know, and that's when we have 753 00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,600 Speaker 1: child fatalities for instance. You know, we will go back 754 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:53,319 Speaker 1: historically and look at the course of treatment that this 755 00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,799 Speaker 1: child may have had. You know, they went to multiple 756 00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,480 Speaker 1: medical facilities they were treated for this and that you know, 757 00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:05,200 Speaker 1: lectures or you know, contusions, concussions, split heads, you know 758 00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:07,680 Speaker 1: where you've got these big lacerations where they head to 759 00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,600 Speaker 1: be sewn up, and you know that's that kind of 760 00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,800 Speaker 1: gives you these investigated breadcrumbs along the way, so you 761 00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,200 Speaker 1: know again we're not there, you know, as investigators when 762 00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:17,719 Speaker 1: these things happen, we have to go back after the 763 00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,240 Speaker 1: fact and piece it together. And if if you don't 764 00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:25,120 Speaker 1: have that, and I think that that's that's what makes 765 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:29,279 Speaker 1: us a difficult sell. Again, Courtney Clenny is accused of 766 00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:34,400 Speaker 1: stabbing her boyfriend Christian obum Selly and she is charged 767 00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:39,480 Speaker 1: with murder in the second degree with the deadly weapon. Again, 768 00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:45,840 Speaker 1: she has not been convicted. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. 769 00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:53,520 Speaker 1: So now this is up to a jury. Joseph Scott 770 00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,279 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is bodybacks