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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left That's Podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is attorney done Passman, who literally wrote

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Speaker 1: the book on the music business. Don hey, Pop, thanks

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Speaker 1: for having me. Okay, now I can see you're in

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Speaker 1: your home, although it looks like you're in the oval

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Speaker 1: office here on the zoom screen. Uh, how has your

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Speaker 1: practice changed since you've been at home. Well, interestingly, I

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Speaker 1: can do what I do pretty seamlessly at home. Um,

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Speaker 1: we're set up with computers, I'm set up as zoom.

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Speaker 1: I'm set up with uh, you know, phones and so

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Speaker 1: forth and emails, and I can get an awful lot done.

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Speaker 1: I can access the files in the office. I can

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Speaker 1: I can take care of whatever it needs to be done.

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Speaker 1: It's changed in the sense that obviously there's no touring

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Speaker 1: because everything is shut down. It's changed what the artists

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Speaker 1: are doing in terms of what you just physically can

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Speaker 1: do in this environment. Um, things that I at least

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have intuitively thought about, Like, for example, you can't

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Speaker 1: make videos in this environment, so you can't do the

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Speaker 1: same kind of marketing. You can't do personal appearances, you

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Speaker 1: can't do a lot of things that you would normally

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Speaker 1: do to market and promote product. But other than that,

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Speaker 1: people can still record, albeit remotely, and people can still

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Speaker 1: make music, still write music, and uh, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of deals going on. Okay, since so much of the

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Speaker 1: business is closed down, your particular business in work, is

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Speaker 1: it any slower or as busy as ever? No, it's

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Speaker 1: busy as ever. I was actually surprised by that and

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Speaker 1: maybe even a little disappointed. Maybe there'll be a slowdown,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's been extremely busy, and truthfully I like

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Speaker 1: that better. It makes the days go by. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: you said there are a bunch of deals in the offing.

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Speaker 1: What kind of deals? Um, you know, buying and selling

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Speaker 1: of catalogs for example, executive deals people are making, publishing

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Speaker 1: songwright deals. People are still making record deals, management deals,

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Speaker 1: you know, the sponsorship less so now perhaps, but still active. So.

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Speaker 1: And then there's of course the whole situation with people

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Speaker 1: who made deals during COVID that now aren't working that

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Speaker 1: we have to sort out. Okay, can you address that

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Speaker 1: about the deals that aren't working and whether insurance comes

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Speaker 1: in and how amenable people are two changes and adjusting. Well,

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Speaker 1: people are pretty amenable. I mean everybody recognizes this is

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Speaker 1: something nobody could have contemplated. Um, everybody's businesses is challenged

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Speaker 1: seriously and fundamentally, and I think for the most part,

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Speaker 1: everybody has a long term view, which is that you know,

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Speaker 1: we can't, we can't. I mean, just to pick an

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Speaker 1: example of tours, because it's the most obvious if everyone

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Speaker 1: got together and if they had the contractual right, which

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Speaker 1: not everyone does to get paid during COVID, but they

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Speaker 1: crushed the promoters for the you know, out of business

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Speaker 1: when they have no income coming. Nobody thinks that's the

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Speaker 1: right thing to do or the long term thing to do.

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Speaker 1: So things are getting rescheduled, people are working together, people

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Speaker 1: are taking discounts, people are deferring payments to the extent

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Speaker 1: they can, and and for the most part it's it's

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Speaker 1: worked out pretty amicably. Okay, Uh, Since you're doing these deals,

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Speaker 1: when are your promoters wanting to start again, whether that

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Speaker 1: happens or not. When are they trying to book for

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm not on the front line of that

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Speaker 1: because the agents are. But from the intel that I've gotten,

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Speaker 1: nobody thinks anything is going to happen before summer of uh.

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Speaker 1: And honestly, I think it could be more like the

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Speaker 1: fall or even in it will directly depend on how

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Speaker 1: quickly we have a medical breakthrough. Okay. The other thing is,

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Speaker 1: have you uh been involved any issues of insurance people

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Speaker 1: trying to claim whether companies are paying off whether you

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Speaker 1: can get this insurance at this time? I have not

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Speaker 1: recently been involved in that because nobody's putting up tours,

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Speaker 1: so we're not dealing with the insurance issues. There are

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Speaker 1: issues around whether insurance will cover it. It's very policy dependent. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's you know, let's break down some of the things

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Speaker 1: you brought up. You said you're doing a lot of

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Speaker 1: publishing deals. Everyone knows on the inside hypnosis is raising

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Speaker 1: the value of catalogs. Uh. Do you think this is

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Speaker 1: causing the action in the buying and selling of publishing catalogs.

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Speaker 1: I think that's part of it. I think the other

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Speaker 1: part of it is that we're seeing a lot of

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Speaker 1: Wall Street money looking at publishing as a steady source

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Speaker 1: of income with potential upside and uh and Wall Street

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Speaker 1: like steady sources of income as an investment. So we're

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Speaker 1: seeing all kinds of new players come into the marketplace

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Speaker 1: that want to do this, and so there's not a

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Speaker 1: lot of inventory and a lot of hound snapping at

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Speaker 1: the door, and I think that's the reason we're seeing

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Speaker 1: such a surge in that. What kind of Wall Street

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Speaker 1: movement have you seen? Um? Well, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: get specific, but a number of investment firms or people

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Speaker 1: backed by investment type firms that are funds you know

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Speaker 1: that are that are you know venture capital type funds. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's talk specifically about Hypnosis Merk's company. He wants to

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Speaker 1: own the publishing entirely, and he's paying a huge multiple. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: as an attorney, you listen to what your client wants.

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Speaker 1: But assuming the client didn't have opinion and opinion, what

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Speaker 1: would you say about selling all the rights? I generally

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Speaker 1: advise against it. Historically, everybody who has sold their song

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Speaker 1: has regretted it. If you look back through history to

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Speaker 1: pick an example, Uh, you know, led Zeppelin sold all

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Speaker 1: the royalties on their catalog for what was a good

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Speaker 1: deal amount of money at the time, but over history

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Speaker 1: proved to be not such a great deal. Same thing

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Speaker 1: with Elvis Preshley. The people that have sold off have

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Speaker 1: generally regretted it. People that sold songs, people that sold

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Speaker 1: publishing companies. You know have seen them go for bigger

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Speaker 1: multiples further down the road. UM. So my general bent

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Speaker 1: is there is a saying in the publishing business never

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Speaker 1: sell a song, and my general bent is against that.

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, there are a few specific circumstances

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Speaker 1: where it can make sense. There's some tax advantages to selling.

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Speaker 1: You can get capital gains rather than ordinary income for

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Speaker 1: the money that you get. If your need of money, uh,

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Speaker 1: you can sell it in that. But if you're if

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Speaker 1: you're able to hang onto it for one thing, tax wise,

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Speaker 1: once you die, you get what's called a stepped up basis,

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Speaker 1: which means that your errors will be able to sell

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Speaker 1: the catalog for the value at the time of death

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Speaker 1: and not pay any tax on the sale. Of course,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna pay a state tax on it if your

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Speaker 1: state's large enough. Um, but you wouldn't pay any income

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Speaker 1: tax on the sale at that point. And really I

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Speaker 1: like to u to keep it through the airs. Now,

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Speaker 1: having said that, in a situation where someone passed away

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Speaker 1: and the airs are squabbling with each other or they

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Speaker 1: can't it's too cumbersome to get everybody to agree to

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Speaker 1: license a song or someone. You know, different situations, it

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Speaker 1: does make sense to sell. And by the way, someone

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Speaker 1: who is sophisticated and not going to just squander the money,

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Speaker 1: who wants to sell it and thinks they can make

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Speaker 1: a better return than they're publishing is giving them by

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Speaker 1: putting it into different kinds of investments, that can make

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Speaker 1: sense too. But that's rare, and my general band is

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Speaker 1: don't do it. But obviously I have people who want

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Speaker 1: to do it, and and we we've certainly done a

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Speaker 1: lot of it. Okay, what about some of your clients

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Speaker 1: or people you might be aware of who are cash

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Speaker 1: poor and make most of their money for touring. Uh,

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Speaker 1: if we're down for another up to eighteen months, what

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Speaker 1: options do these people have for income? Yeah, that's that's

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Speaker 1: a good question. I mean it depends, of course on

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Speaker 1: who they are. If they have good songwriting or record income,

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Speaker 1: that's where it's going to come from. Possibly there's an endorsement. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know some of them have. There's been this situation

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Speaker 1: which I haven't had highans involved in, but I've I've

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Speaker 1: heard about tangentially where people are you know, getting tips

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Speaker 1: or trying to you know, some pay per view, although

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Speaker 1: a lot of that's for charity. That generates some amount

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Speaker 1: of money, but nothing like touring would. But generally it's tough.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you don't have income from other sources,

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Speaker 1: it's going to be a rough period of time. Okay,

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Speaker 1: talking about income in the future. There are cases where

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Speaker 1: people have an interest in a record. A well known

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Speaker 1: cases Todd Rundgren produced Bad Out of Hell of the

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Speaker 1: meat Loaf record. Now, in his particular case, he sold

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Speaker 1: all the royalties. I could go down that path. I

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Speaker 1: know more about it. But there are people who sold

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Speaker 1: royalties in records because they say it's very difficult to collect.

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Speaker 1: Is the years go by and never never mind collect

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Speaker 1: a hundred cents on the dollar. What do you think

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Speaker 1: about that whole situation. I'm not clear why they think

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Speaker 1: it would be difficult to collect. I know a number

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Speaker 1: of cases where the new regimes come in, Uh they

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Speaker 1: people work gets screwed up. The new people say they're

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Speaker 1: not owed the money, and especially someone who needs the

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Speaker 1: money has a very hard time going through the process

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Speaker 1: and then ultimately even lawsuits in order to collect what

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Speaker 1: they deserve. As I say, if you haven't experience that,

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Speaker 1: I've not experienced it, but I don't doubt it happens.

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Speaker 1: Uh you know, and if it's not for a lot

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Speaker 1: of money, it's not going to be worthwhile to file

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Speaker 1: the litigation. As I say, there may be situations where

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Speaker 1: selling makes sense. You don't get capital gains on an

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Speaker 1: income stream. By the way, if you're a producer getting royalties,

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Speaker 1: you can't sell it for capital gains. You can only

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Speaker 1: sell capital gains for an asset, which would be a copyright.

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Speaker 1: In fact, if you don't own the copyright and you're

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Speaker 1: only selling your stream as a writer, you don't get

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Speaker 1: capital games for that either. So there's no particular tax

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Speaker 1: advantage to that. It's just a question of uh. And

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Speaker 1: if you want to do a cold financial analysis, how

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Speaker 1: much money will they give me? Now? What can I

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Speaker 1: earn on that money? Uh? Am? I better off doing

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Speaker 1: that than keeping it and getting the income as it

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Speaker 1: comes in. You're certainly hedging against it going down over time,

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Speaker 1: but you're also losing the benefit if it goes up

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Speaker 1: over time. So these are very fact specific situations and

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Speaker 1: you have to analyze it based on who they are

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Speaker 1: and what their needs are. Generally speaking, the people who

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Speaker 1: make all this money, who are performers, are not that

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Speaker 1: good at business. So to what degree if someone does

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Speaker 1: get a lump sum, do you advise them what to

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Speaker 1: do with the money? Well, I don't advise on financial matters.

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Speaker 1: It's not my expertise, and I try to stay in

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Speaker 1: the lane that I know best and not not get

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Speaker 1: out of it. Uh, the financial it depends. I mean,

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Speaker 1: some artists don't know much about business, but they have

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Speaker 1: smart people around them and they listen to them. And

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Speaker 1: if those people know what they're doing and think it

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Speaker 1: makes sense on a financial basis, and you're not going

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Speaker 1: to run out and you know by jets and yachts

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Speaker 1: with the proceeds um, then it might make some sense

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Speaker 1: to do it. But it's very very fact dependent. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's go back to the royalty situation. You make a deal,

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Speaker 1: and let's just assume for the sake of discussion, the

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Speaker 1: act actually goes into profits into royalties. What has been

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Speaker 1: your experience with those acts getting paid and getting what

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Speaker 1: they deserve? Giving the example of UH high price, attorneys

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Speaker 1: like yourself negotiate the deals, but frequently the people who

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Speaker 1: are doing the splits or someone uneducated in the back room.

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Speaker 1: So to what degree if you experienced a problem here

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Speaker 1: and if you could address that. Sure. Uh, it's gotten

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Speaker 1: much better over the time I've been practicing law. It

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Speaker 1: used to be that things were very a sloppy and

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Speaker 1: very difficult. And that was also in the days when

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Speaker 1: royalties were computed with this incredibly complex formula which basically

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Speaker 1: was the answer to how can I give the artist

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Speaker 1: a high royalty rate and pay them as little as possible?

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Speaker 1: And they go through all these complicated matching nations, and

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Speaker 1: you know, starting maybe eight or ten years ago, they

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Speaker 1: simplified it down to you get a percentage of what

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Speaker 1: we get. So and the major labels I find are

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Speaker 1: pretty straightforward, and the major publishers pretty straightforward because we

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Speaker 1: audit them regularly to check and you know, we find

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Speaker 1: something or sometimes there's a contractual dispute. Sometimes they're honest mistakes.

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Speaker 1: But for the most part, they're pretty straightforward. And the

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Speaker 1: size of the audits compared to the old days when

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Speaker 1: the companies played games are I find, are much smaller.

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Speaker 1: There's still significant money and there's still things to argue about, um,

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Speaker 1: but but for the most part, I think they try

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Speaker 1: pretty well. When you get an independent labels, it can

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Speaker 1: be a different story. It just depends on how sophisticicated

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Speaker 1: their back room is, or whether they've got somebody doing it. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, I don't find as many people intentionally playing

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Speaker 1: games as we used to, but I do find honest mistakes.

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Speaker 1: And you know, some of the smaller labels can just

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Speaker 1: be sloppy or maybe have cash flow issues going back

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Speaker 1: to the majors. So forget forgetting someone who's an Internet

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Speaker 1: phenomenon like Little Nasax. If you're an act and the

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Speaker 1: label wants you and there's no bidding war, all you're

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Speaker 1: saying almost all of the deals or a percentage of net, Well,

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Speaker 1: they're not a percentage of net directly, they're a percentage

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Speaker 1: of the labels receipts. They're closer to a percentage of gross,

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Speaker 1: although there's issues around what gross means, particularly when you

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Speaker 1: come to foreign territories. But it's a percentage of what

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Speaker 1: the label receives. Correct. Okay, so let's just talk about

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Speaker 1: domestic money. We sign with one of the three major labels.

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Speaker 1: What would be the rain of percentage that you would

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Speaker 1: make a deal for both an established act and a

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Speaker 1: developing act. Yeah, developing act would probably be in the

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Speaker 1: fifteen to eighteen to twenty percent range, depending on bargaining

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Speaker 1: power UH an established act, and sometimes you can get

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Speaker 1: a little bit more on streaming. UH. An established act

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Speaker 1: could be in the twenties, and again with a bit

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Speaker 1: more on streaming. When you're getting into really superstar ranges,

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Speaker 1: you can get into all kinds of different things like

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Speaker 1: shares of profits. And indeed, some of the new artists

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Speaker 1: that are hot with bidding wars can get you a

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Speaker 1: share of profits and distribution type deal where they own

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Speaker 1: the masters and they just allow the company to distribute

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Speaker 1: it for a period of time. Uh. And you know

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Speaker 1: all kinds of things in between. So let's just assume

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Speaker 1: I have for the second numbers, I have deal. What

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Speaker 1: would be taken out of the gross Traditionally, well, under

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Speaker 1: today's formula nothing. Uh, it would just be of the

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Speaker 1: company's gross. And in the United States, that's pretty straightforward.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's what they would uh. It's what they

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Speaker 1: would get for a c D, what they would get

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Speaker 1: for a download, what they would get for a stream. UH.

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Speaker 1: Synchronization licenses or generally meaning the right to use this

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Speaker 1: song and a film, or the right to use a

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Speaker 1: song and a commercial. UH. That's that's a different split.

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Speaker 1: When you get the foreign percentages. Uh, you know that

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Speaker 1: that's when it's a bit more in the the gamesmanship

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Speaker 1: on the on downloads and cd s, it's pretty straightforward

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Speaker 1: about what the their affiliates going to get. But when

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Speaker 1: you get the streaming, sometimes the companies will take a

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Speaker 1: percentage in France, for example, before they send the money

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Speaker 1: back to the US, and then you only get the

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Speaker 1: percentage of the US. So one of the things we

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Speaker 1: asked for in streaming deals now is that they have

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Speaker 1: to be at source, and the words at source mean

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Speaker 1: that that's where the money is generated. So if it's

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Speaker 1: French money, it's it's in France. If it's German money,

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Speaker 1: it's in Germany without any deductions before it gets back

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Speaker 1: to the US and the company pays it to the artists. Now,

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Speaker 1: in this particular case, unlike in decades past or certainly

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Speaker 1: prior to nineteen seventy, where these companies own their worldwide outlets,

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Speaker 1: they're not licensing to a third party. Is the reduction

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Speaker 1: for foreign moneys just a negotiating ploy or do they

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Speaker 1: give some kind of rationalization or they give a rationalization

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Speaker 1: that the local company has marketing expenses and that they're

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Speaker 1: putting actually effort and money into it and so forth.

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Speaker 1: But the reality is is that if you have enough cloud,

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Speaker 1: you can get your money its source. Maybe a lower

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Speaker 1: royalty for them, but you can get it as source. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's pull back the lens because we've talked previously that

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Speaker 1: you know, used to be a lot of your time

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Speaker 1: was spent negotiating record deals, but it shifted to a

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Speaker 1: great degree to live business. Can you comment on that please? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean in terms of our personal time, you know,

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Speaker 1: we will as more and more of these deals are

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Speaker 1: done with one single promoter will do it in some

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Speaker 1: ount of work on that promoter deal. But we also

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Speaker 1: tours are very labor intensive. Tours require contracts for things

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Speaker 1: you don't normally think about, like, uh, somebody to build

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Speaker 1: the stage, the trucks, the buses, the crew, the band,

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Speaker 1: the dancers. I mean, there are all kinds of things

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Speaker 1: that go into it, insurance issues. So tours are actually

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Speaker 1: quite a bit of work. Um. But you know, I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't want to say that it shifted the majority of

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Speaker 1: what we do. I just say it's just a big

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Speaker 1: part of it. Okay. Uh, So let's assume I make

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Speaker 1: an overall deal with live nation or concerts West. You

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Speaker 1: mentioned all those things. Those are the responsibility of the act.

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Speaker 1: Where does the line between the responsibility the act and

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Speaker 1: the promoter lay for life? I'm not sure what you

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Speaker 1: mean by responsibility. Okay, you're talking about hiring people, insurance, etcetera. Okay, No, No,

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Speaker 1: the act, the act does all of that that. The

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Speaker 1: promoters deal is just simply we're gonna pay you X

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Speaker 1: to show up and do y concerts. I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot more to it than that, obviously, but that's

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Speaker 1: that's the essence of what the contract is. Uh. Every Then,

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Speaker 1: the act is responsible for delivering the show. So they're

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Speaker 1: hiring the band, they're hiring the the crew, they're hiring

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Speaker 1: the buses, they're hiring the trucks. Okay, and let's just

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Speaker 1: assume the venue is not owned by the promoter and

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Speaker 1: there is an accident, I would assume the act gets

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Speaker 1: sued in addition to the promoter. Yeah, there's an age

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Speaker 1: I legal theory. If you're going to throw a party,

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Speaker 1: you invite everybody, So anybody who is anywhere near what

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Speaker 1: happened is going to be sued along with it. Okay, Now,

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Speaker 1: you know, let's talk about a superstar act might go

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Speaker 1: out with twenty trucks, uh, crew of dozens, etcetera. To

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Speaker 1: what degree are you involved in the micro management? What

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Speaker 1: I mean by that is someone gets five A or

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Speaker 1: a a roadie gets, you know, their ankle broken. Do

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Speaker 1: they call the attorney or their layers before it gets

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00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,200
Speaker 1: to you? Um? Both? I mean, yes, there's layers before

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00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,440
Speaker 1: it get to us. But anybody being fired or any

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Speaker 1: kind of injury or insurance issue, we're going to be

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Speaker 1: involved in it as well. Okay, And let's just talk

340
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Speaker 1: an overall deal with one of those international promoters. Who

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Speaker 1: ultimately comes up with the price and who does the negotiation? Um,

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Speaker 1: Usually it's the agent that does the negotiation of the

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Speaker 1: major terms, uh and the prices you know a marketplace mitting.

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Speaker 1: You know, they'll look at their history, they'll project what

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Speaker 1: they think they can do, they'll figure out a percentage

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Speaker 1: of it, they'll want to guarantee of a certain amount

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Speaker 1: of it. And it's just part of the back and forth. Okay. Now,

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Speaker 1: a certain number of superstar is don't have an agent

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Speaker 1: at all. Do you see what do you see the

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Speaker 1: future of the agency business being? Well, I think the

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00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,439
Speaker 1: agencies bring value. I'm mean, I think they have a

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Speaker 1: lot of knowledge that even I mean, there's a few

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Speaker 1: managers that are perfectly capable of doing everything, but for

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Speaker 1: the most part, the agents have a depth of knowledge

355
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,480
Speaker 1: and relationships and knowledge of other deals, knowledge of routing,

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Speaker 1: knowledge of UH you know, what the marketplace is like

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Speaker 1: in different places that I think makes invaluable and particularly

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Speaker 1: for managers without that expertise, I think they're an important

359
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Speaker 1: part of the team. Okay, let's talk because you're on

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Speaker 1: the artist team. Uh. In the old days, everybody paid

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Speaker 1: ten percent, but a very successful artist usually does not

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Speaker 1: pay his agent ten percent. What is your experience there

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00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,040
Speaker 1: and what's the negotiation like. Well, if you're bringing in,

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Speaker 1: you know, a tour that's you know, a hundred million

365
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Speaker 1: dollars there, it's unlikely they're going to pay ten percent

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Speaker 1: for it. But it's negotiated very specifically in each instance. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, it can be a very low percentage. It

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Speaker 1: can even in a few cases not so much anymore,

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Speaker 1: be a flat fee. Oh kay. In the old day,

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Speaker 1: certainly prior to there were six major UH international companies

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Speaker 1: in some very large independence distributed by them. So in

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Speaker 1: terms of getting record deals, how is the landscape change

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Speaker 1: as a results of consolidation in the Internet. In terms

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Speaker 1: of record deals, well, there are less buyers for obvious reasons.

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Speaker 1: I mean there are now you know, a number of

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Speaker 1: independents that are also in the marketplace, but in terms

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00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,480
Speaker 1: of majors, there are only three. Uh. And they don't

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00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 1: let their labels compete against each other. So if two

379
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 1: labels owned by the same major are both wanting the artists,

380
00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,960
Speaker 1: they will negotiate jointly, or the artists will nick a

381
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Speaker 1: Laine before they do that because they won't outbid each other. Um.

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Speaker 1: But you know, as long as you get two horses

383
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,640
Speaker 1: in the race, you can still have a spirited bidding. Warm. Now,

384
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 1: in the old days, attorneys were conduits for talent. To

385
00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:00,600
Speaker 1: what degree is that still the game? Um? I think

386
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 1: it's just still the game to some degree. I mean,

387
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 1: you know, the attorneys have more knowledge than others because

388
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,200
Speaker 1: we can have more clients. Uh. You know, agents may

389
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,679
Speaker 1: have more clients, but they're in a one lane. In

390
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 1: terms of overall understanding of the industry. Managers can't have

391
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,679
Speaker 1: as many clients. Some of the big companies obviously do,

392
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:23,120
Speaker 1: but I'm saying individual managers can't and lawyers are much

393
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 1: less of a time commitment, so we have more clients

394
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 1: and we see a lot of deals. So we have

395
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 1: quite a bit of quite a bit of knowledge, and

396
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,680
Speaker 1: we have relationships with with people as well. So when

397
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 1: someone you know needs to be connected or needs something done,

398
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 1: we're in a position to do it. Okay, to what

399
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,119
Speaker 1: did we? Are people knocking on your door wanting to

400
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 1: hire you to make a record deal? Um? If you

401
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,360
Speaker 1: are you talking about new people in the business or yes? Yes, Oh,

402
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 1: I get a fair amount of that because of my

403
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 1: book All you need to know about the music business.

404
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,080
Speaker 1: I get people calling me and while I did that

405
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 1: when I was young and starting out, I don't do

406
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 1: that anymore. But I have a list of lawyers that

407
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:06,919
Speaker 1: very much like to do that if they like the music,

408
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,679
Speaker 1: and I give them referrals. So generally speaking, if you

409
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,919
Speaker 1: don't know someone, you refer it out. Yes, And I

410
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 1: referred out if I don't have expertise, because I think

411
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Speaker 1: it's important to be clear about where my strengths are

412
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 1: and clear about where my weaknesses are. So if I

413
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 1: if it's an area I don't completely understand, I'll make

414
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,399
Speaker 1: sure the client gets involved with someone who does and

415
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 1: what would you deep your areas of expertise in areas

416
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 1: where you have less knowledge. Oh, it would be I

417
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,360
Speaker 1: mean to pick an easy example, something like criminal law.

418
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: But it can also be I started life as a

419
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 1: tax lawyer, but my tax expertise is very rusty. Uh,

420
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: and so I'll bring in a tax specialist. Sometimes we

421
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,639
Speaker 1: need help with some corporate issues if it's an extremely

422
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 1: complicated transaction. Um, you know people that want to rent

423
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 1: charter planes. That's especially that I and have expertise and

424
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 1: things like that. Okay, So let's assume you have a

425
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 1: relationship with someone a manager you've done business before, and

426
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 1: they say they want to represent the act to what

427
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,199
Speaker 1: did you to represent the act? To what degree do

428
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 1: you make a judgment based on the qualitability, quality, or

429
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 1: saleability of the material? Oh? I have terrible ears. Um,

430
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 1: if I like something that's not usually a good sign

431
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: and my track rigor don that isn't terrific. I have

432
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: a couple of partners Jean Solomon, Ethan Schiffer's who haven't

433
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: had very good years, very good ears, and so I

434
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 1: rely on them. But primarily I rely on who the

435
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 1: manager is, who's the team is around him? If there's

436
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: someone at the label that I respect was interested in them,

437
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:47,479
Speaker 1: So I don't make the independent judgment myself. Okay, at

438
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 1: what stage does it tend to come to you? Does

439
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 1: a manager say I have a new act, I haven't

440
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: talked to the labels, don helped me out, or I've

441
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 1: already talked to some labels. Now I want you to

442
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 1: come in when you come into the process, I'm sure

443
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:05,199
Speaker 1: there are million examples of everything, but generally speaking, yeah, well,

444
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 1: at this stage, I tend to take more established artists

445
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: or at least mid level on their way up. We

446
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: take a few shots with young artists, but can't take

447
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: very many because our basic philosophy is were a small

448
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 1: firm and we try to do great work for a

449
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 1: fewer number of people, so I can't take as many

450
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 1: shots as I might like. So generally I want to

451
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: see something going on before I'll get involved. That there's

452
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 1: a buzz there, there's a lot of interest, they've got

453
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: a few labels bidding um. But we can we can

454
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 1: come in at any stage. We can. You know, clients

455
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 1: come to us sometimes at the highest level if they're

456
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: making a change. So it just depends and what kind

457
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: of fee structure do you institute? Generally we charge five percent? Okay,

458
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: And how do you know if they're accounting to you accurately?

459
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: We rely on the business manager, and uh, you know,

460
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 1: to some degree we have knowledge. We know, for example,

461
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 1: of a certain deal how much they're getting paid on it,

462
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 1: so we'll have a sense of what we should be getting.

463
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 1: But in general we rely on the business manager. Okay,

464
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 1: what about sunset issues? You mean on our fees? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

465
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 1: we are. The way our deals work is that any

466
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,919
Speaker 1: contracts that we made, we get paid for while we

467
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: represent them, and then a year after and then it's over. Okay.

468
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: That's standard. So okay, Uh, you're representing an act. Labels

469
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: are interested, what's the next step? Um? We would actually

470
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: it would start to solicit offers and say, okay, you're

471
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 1: interested in make us a proposal. It depends by the

472
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: way it depends. Um. If it's a really major act,

473
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 1: we'll put the proposal together because we'll have a history

474
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: and we'll have a pretty good idea and we want

475
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: to press the envelope. If it's a newer act and

476
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 1: there's no history to it, will ask the labels to

477
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,919
Speaker 1: make bids and then we'll start to sort them by

478
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 1: stone how they line up. And Okay, now you've zeroed

479
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 1: in on one label and you would like to make

480
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: a deal with that label. What are the arguments? So

481
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: what are the negotiations end up being when you're cammering

482
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 1: out the final deal. Well, we generally start with all

483
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 1: the major points. How much product is it going to be,

484
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 1: what's going to be the advance, what's the royalty rate? Um?

485
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 1: The argument used to be a lot about how much

486
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: are you going to pay for use of the songs

487
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 1: and the records? But that's pretty much becoming irrelevant for

488
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 1: reasons I can explain if you're interested why I want

489
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: to explain those. Okay, Um, those are called mechanical royalties,

490
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 1: And every time a CD is sold you get paid

491
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: a certain number of pennies. Every time there's a download,

492
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 1: you get a certain number of pennies every time every

493
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 1: time there's a stream you get a percentage of the

494
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,959
Speaker 1: streaming revenue that gets paid for the songs. Now, this

495
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 1: is remember we're talking about two different rights. This is

496
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: a record deal, So what are buying is the right

497
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 1: to distribute physical recordings, but you also get paid for

498
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 1: the songwriting, which may or may not even be the artist,

499
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 1: but you get you get paid as a songwriter, which

500
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: is a separate payment for what you get for the

501
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: actual master recording. Those are called mechanicals, and it used

502
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 1: to be a major part of record deals to negotiate

503
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 1: the mechanicals because you get those moneys right from the

504
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 1: get go. The first record that sold, you get paid.

505
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 1: Whereas on your record deal they take back all the

506
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: money they've paid you for an advance and for costs,

507
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: and you may not get record royalties ever or for years.

508
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: But mechanical world is you get right from day one.

509
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: So that was a big negotiating point. What happened was

510
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: there was a couple of changes in the copyright law.

511
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: The first one said that record deals made after a

512
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: certain date, I don't remember the exact in the In

513
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: the in the nineties, all record all future record deals

514
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: had to pay a full amount of royalties for uh

515
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: for downloads. And what the companies always tried to do

516
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: is reduce the mechanicals, because that is money they're paying

517
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: out before they get their money back. And that was

518
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: the argument was how much are they going to reduce it?

519
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: So starting there they said you can't reduce it for

520
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: downloads not a big deal at the time, because you know,

521
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: big percent of the market was physical. Then along came streaming,

522
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: which is now the dominant part of the market, and

523
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: that rate is set by the copyright law and there's

524
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: no negotiating about it, and it's not even in fact

525
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: paid by the record companies. It's paid by the digital

526
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: service providers, the spotifyes and so forth, so that the

527
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: only thing you're arguing about now is physical product, which

528
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: is dwindling, and so it's becoming much less relevant. Okay,

529
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: going a little bit deeper, the streaming services, there's only

530
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: a hundred cents and a dollar, and Universal just made

531
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 1: their deal with Spotify. Spotify is reducing the percentage of

532
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: income they're paying the major distributors. But many people on

533
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: the writing side, the songwriting side, believe eve that the

534
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: percentage that went to songwriters was too low to begin with.

535
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: Is there what's your viewpoint on that and is there

536
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: any way to claw any of that percentage back? Well, um, yes,

537
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: that's been an argument for quite a bit of time.

538
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: The argument on the record company side is we're making

539
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: a much bigger investment, We have much more risk and

540
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: much more expense than the songwriters do, and the songwriters

541
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: of course look at it the other way around. Um

542
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: And when it comes to synchronization licenses, the songwriter, the

543
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: master and the songwriter publisher are getting the same amount

544
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: of money and they think that should be the model

545
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: on the master's side too, but that we're not likely

546
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: to get there. The percentages are not far off from

547
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 1: the same ratio that they used to be on physical

548
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: product on CDs, which was the norm of the industry

549
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: for many, many years. UM. So I think it's going

550
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: to be difficult because to claw a bigger percentage, it's

551
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: got to come from somewhere. It's not likely to come

552
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: from Spotify. I their rate is set by by the

553
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: copyright law though, uh and so there's not a lot

554
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: of negotiating around it at this point, and in fact,

555
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: they're getting escalations that goes up over time. Okay, talking

556
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: about Spotify d cents they've recently in the last few months,

557
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: especially going deeply into podcasts, Wall Street has reacted very positively,

558
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: believing there's a lot more profit A can you explain

559
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: to what degree this reduces labels income and how this

560
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: is going to play out? I don't think podcasts will.

561
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: Now this is just my personal opinion, but I don't

562
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: think podcasts are going to reduce labels income because I

563
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: think it's a different audience. I mean, yes, of course,

564
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: we only have so many leisure hours, and how we're

565
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: going to suspend it, whether it's watching TV or or

566
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: watching streaming shows on Netflix, or uh, listening to music

567
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: or listening to podcasts. Um. You know, podcasts require you

568
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: to actually sit in constant trade and listen music. I

569
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: can have on in the background and so and I

570
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: can be doing other things at the same time. So

571
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: I don't know that there is directly competitive as it

572
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: might seem, but I can understand why they would think

573
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: it's a good source of income. Okay, but let's be

574
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: very specific. If there's a hundred cents in the dollar,

575
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: let's just make numbers round in sixty goes to audio streams.

576
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: Doesn't the sixty percent that recording companies would normally get

577
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: be Aren't they reduced by the amount of time that

578
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: people spend listening to podcasts. I would think that that's right.

579
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: I would think that, you know, and the overall allocation

580
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: of how much it goes to music and how much

581
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: goes to podcasts. Yes, I think that. I think it

582
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: would to some degree if they are truly doing it

583
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: on the same basis. Now I'm not you know, I'm

584
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: not directly involved in the Spotify ideals. I don't know

585
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 1: if they're based on music streaming or if they're based

586
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 1: on a dent of the service and it would take

587
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: the podcast out. But if that is what they're doing,

588
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,719
Speaker 1: then yes, you're right, it would reduce music. Okay, So

589
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: let's go back to the record deal. The points that

590
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: you're negotiating, uh, whether it be historically and how that's

591
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: changed now, or what you're still negotiating now. Okay, UM,

592
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: I think I had covered most of the major parts.

593
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: The other things that are interesting these days are exclusivity. UM.

594
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: That used to not be as big an issue as

595
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: it's become over the last number of years, and the

596
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: reason for that is that historically, UM exclusivity was limited

597
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: to basically devices that were delivered to consumers. And the

598
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: only wrinkle in that one was that they had audio

599
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: visual devices, which in theory covered at the time video cassettes,

600
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: and if you were in a movie that was out

601
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: on video cassettes, you could be in breach of your

602
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: record deal. UM, something that was an easy fix if

603
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: you new enough to ask about it. Now, the exclusivity

604
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: is so broad that it covers anything you do, uh

605
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: in any way communicating to the public. So, whether you're

606
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: on a radio show, a TV show, UM, you're on

607
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: a doing a concert that streamed at festivals, all these

608
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,760
Speaker 1: things fall under the exclusivity and the record company needs

609
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,800
Speaker 1: to either consent and or get paid for it. Okay,

610
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: into what degree are you experiencing the three sixty deal?

611
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: The three sixty deals is which if anyone isn't familiar with,

612
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: is where the record companies in the crash of the business. Uh,

613
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: starting in after UM said we can't make money on

614
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 1: traditional sales of music anymore. We're putting a lot of

615
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: money into making your career. You're making a lot of

616
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: money outside of records because of what we're doing, So

617
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: we want to share in your other income besides just records.

618
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 1: Those are called three sixty rights, and they've become very

619
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: much the norm and presdent in the industry. Uh. If

620
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 1: you have enough clout, you can get them cut down

621
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: to small numbers or even get rid of them sometimes. UM.

622
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: But every label, whether it's independent or major. Now once

623
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: three sixty rights is their initial go round. You can

624
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 1: also cut back the areas that they apply to UM.

625
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 1: So for example, maybe they only apply to uh the

626
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 1: songwriting or publishing, or maybe they only apply to uh,

627
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: you know, touring, UM. But they are very much here

628
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: to stay for the near term. In the long term, well,

629
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,879
Speaker 1: I guess we'll see. And how do those percentages break down?

630
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: They're different. Uh, they can be anywhere from the most

631
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 1: aggressive I've seen. Are some labels trying to take more

632
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: more in the norm is somewhere in the fifteen to

633
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: twenty or range. And on touring they try to take

634
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: it on the gross, but a smaller percentage because uh, well,

635
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,359
Speaker 1: run tour in the beginning of your stay of your

636
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 1: career could probably lose money, not make money, and they

637
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: shouldn't get paid on the growth of that because they

638
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 1: get you'd be losing money and paying your record company.

639
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,919
Speaker 1: At a higher level tour, the artist still may only

640
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 1: gross fifty or sixty percent of of what they're growth, sorry,

641
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: may only take home fifty or sixty of what they're grossing.

642
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 1: And so the record companies, uh you know, want to

643
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: get paid on the higher number. And more importantly, they

644
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: don't want people playing games of throwing all these expenses

645
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:25,879
Speaker 1: into the tour and make it look like they lost

646
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: money just so they don't have to pay the record company. Okay,

647
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,359
Speaker 1: is it a straight percentage for all third party activities

648
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: or does some third party activities have a different rate.

649
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: It's all negotiable, but yes, they're they're not necessarily the

650
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 1: same percentage overall, So you might have You might pay

651
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 1: them only uh, you know, five percent on tours or

652
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 1: five percent of gross on tours. Uh. And you might

653
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: pay them five or ten percent on publishing, but you

654
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 1: pay them on merchandizing. I'm making this up, but they

655
00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: can be different percentages, okay. And generally speaking on the

656
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: touring deals, are they gross or are they net? You

657
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 1: mean from there? Yes, they usually try. Sometimes they'll do

658
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 1: a combination. You know, we want of net, but not

659
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 1: less than seven and a half percent of gross, or

660
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: they'll just take a percentage of gross. And now traditionally,

661
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 1: although you say it's not that much the case today,

662
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: the record companies have screwed the acts. How does the

663
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,800
Speaker 1: record company know the accounting to them is accurate? A

664
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 1: good question. They all have the ability to audit, come

665
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: in and look at the books. Uh. In my experience,

666
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 1: they don't generally do that, although I've seen it happen

667
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: where they'll come in and make sure that they're getting

668
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 1: a fair count, and they'll want to they've gotten pretty

669
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,439
Speaker 1: sophisticated about touring. They'll want to see budgets, projections. Uh.

670
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 1: And they may not let you deduct expenses like your

671
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 1: manager or your agent, on the theory that they, you know,

672
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: if they're getting paid full vote socials the label. Okay,

673
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 1: let's go back to commitments. What kind of commitments are

674
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: you seeing these days in terms of number of albums? Yes, okay, Well,

675
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 1: interesting question before we even get to the number of

676
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 1: albums or whether or not the deal is going to

677
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: be based on albums, because albums may or may not

678
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: be the norm in the years to come, likely won't be. Uh.

679
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: So some companies are are are willing to go to

680
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: you know, we'll give you twelve or fourteen masters as

681
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,280
Speaker 1: opposed to an album. Uh. Some companies are still holding

682
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 1: onto albums and want to negotiate it when we get

683
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: there if albums aren't the right way to go. But

684
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: in general speaking, they're gonna want it. For a new artist,

685
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: they're gonna want to have the options. Probably they'll commit

686
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: to one album, and what the options for uh, you know,

687
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 1: two or three more uh, four more established artists. You know,

688
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: you might limit the entire deal the three uh. And

689
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: in fact, for newer artists, they're gonna want much more

690
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 1: than that. They're going to try and get four or

691
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 1: five albums total for part of the deal. Now, it

692
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: used to be historically no one would uh let anybody

693
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 1: go in California under the seven year rule, but there's

694
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 1: been some leakage there. What do you think about the

695
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 1: seven year rule applying to recording commitments today? Well, the

696
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 1: record companies did a pretty masterful job of lobbying the

697
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 1: California legislature to exempt record deals from the seven year statute.

698
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:18,879
Speaker 1: Not saying you can't get out of your record deal

699
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 1: after seven years, because you can, but saying that the

700
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: record company could sue you for the profits on the

701
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: undelivered masters, and the profits on the undelivered masters could

702
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: be much more than the artist is going to make

703
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,879
Speaker 1: going to a new company. So in effect, they've got

704
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: the artist to where they can't really terminate under the

705
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 1: seven year statute. And to what degree do you have

706
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 1: managers coming and saying I want this deal based in

707
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 1: a state other than California because it advantages to them. Um,

708
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: you mean because of the manager's enforcement of their of

709
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 1: their contracts. Right, unless there's a New York manager or

710
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: some sort of connection or the artist and the new

711
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: are on the manager in another state, generally they don't

712
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 1: seem to object to that. Um. A few try every

713
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,760
Speaker 1: now and then, but you need some kind of connection

714
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 1: to where the law that's going to apply. Okay, now

715
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 1: let's talk about advances. Advances. What's the range today? What

716
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:24,320
Speaker 1: are the commitments? Well, it's so you know, fact specific

717
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 1: and dependent on how much heat and what kind of

718
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,280
Speaker 1: genre and uh, you know, how many people are chasing

719
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: it or what's the history. It's really really hard to say.

720
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: I mean, you can see for you know, for artists

721
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:43,760
Speaker 1: that have already a significant UM streaming history that's building.

722
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 1: You can see multimillion dollar deals for people who have

723
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 1: never had a record out before. UM. At the same time,

724
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 1: if you're a rock band, you know, you might get

725
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: a few hundred thousand because nobody seems to want rock

726
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 1: right at the moment, which I personally find said Okay,

727
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 1: that big the question. Someone comes to you and the

728
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 1: act is not hip hop or pop. To what degree

729
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 1: do you say, listen, this is not the major labels expertise,

730
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: they probably don't want it. You're probably best to go

731
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 1: somewhere else. You know, that's more of a manager's call

732
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: than ours. Uh, genuinely, because I don't know that I

733
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 1: have the expertise to say that. I think I can

734
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: certainly say that it's a harder sell at the major labels,

735
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 1: But I think the labels still want some rock acts.

736
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 1: I think it's just it depends on an anar guy

737
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: getting our in our woman getting excited about you. Okay,

738
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 1: Just going back to an earlier point, reauditing on a

739
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: three sixty deal. Used to be these record companies had

740
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 1: an amazing number of employees. They would buy tickets, they

741
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: would sponsor stuff. There are many fewer employees. They're much,

742
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 1: you know, less tight than they used to be. To

743
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: what degree does this affect the development of the act

744
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 1: and also affect whether they're able to uh stand up,

745
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 1: whether it be an accounting or any other battle with

746
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:05,839
Speaker 1: the artist. Well, I think that, um, you know, the

747
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 1: expert if the record company is genuinely excited about someone

748
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: and can and will really put the resources behind them.

749
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: I think they can still be very very effective. And

750
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: I'm sorry to think I understood the second part about it. Well,

751
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 1: I guess you know, if there are ten people working

752
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: there instead of a thousand, certain balls dropped through and

753
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 1: and low, that would be make the act angry. That

754
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: would also mean they're not enough eyes to pay attention

755
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: on my three sixty deal. Uh. Well, I look, I

756
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: I have not had the personal experience, but I certainly

757
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 1: know of artists that just ignore the three sixty and

758
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 1: don't pay them. Uh and uh, you know, but it's

759
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: not something I've had a direct experience with. Okay, so

760
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 1: I'm a I'm a new act, new developing act. What

761
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 1: do you tell me about the publishing? Hang onto it,

762
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: own it, don't sell it. Uh, you know, try to

763
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: make a deal for somebody to do what we call

764
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 1: it an administration deal, which means that they will take

765
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 1: care of it for a period of time, but you

766
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 1: continue to own it and uh and you get it

767
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:08,280
Speaker 1: back at the end of the term or a period

768
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,720
Speaker 1: of time after the end of the term. Let's assume

769
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 1: I make a deal with a major label. What would

770
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 1: be the admin deal like and would there be in advance, Well,

771
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be with the label, it would be with

772
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 1: a publisher or but that the publisher would know that

773
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 1: there's a big company behind me, therefore in lockstep, they

774
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,800
Speaker 1: would make a deal with me for the songs. Yeah,

775
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,240
Speaker 1: it's it's again very very dependent. I mean, if you've

776
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: got you know, a track history of streaming and it's

777
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: building and you've already got multimillions of streams, you know

778
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 1: you're gonna get a much bigger check than if you're

779
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 1: a brand new artist has never put out product and

780
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 1: the labels excited about you. Uh, you know, you might

781
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:47,760
Speaker 1: get in the latter situation, you might get a funder

782
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: thousand and the other you might get, you know, into

783
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: the seven figures. And what would be the ADMD fee

784
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,439
Speaker 1: that would be collected against that. It's directly dependent on

785
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 1: how big an advance you want. The bigger advance us

786
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 1: you want, the bigger the admin fee that the company

787
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 1: that the publisher is gonna want. Uh, the what they

788
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: would love to get is of each dollar for an

789
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,479
Speaker 1: admin fee, you can get them do as low as

790
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: ten percent, meaning of the artists. But the lower you get,

791
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 1: the lesson an advance you're going to get because they

792
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 1: don't have as much margin. And to how long do

793
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 1: these initial publishing admin deals tend to last three years

794
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 1: generally something like that, but they can also be based

795
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: on a certain number of songs. In other words, particularly

796
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: if there's an advance they I'll say, you know, we

797
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 1: have to have a certain number of songs before you

798
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 1: can move the term forward. And they may want options

799
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: beyond the three years, okay, and their options and the

800
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:54,439
Speaker 1: options are based on what usually what are the triggers. Well,

801
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 1: the trigger would be either nothing that it's completely at

802
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 1: the discretion of the publishing company, or if you can negotiate.

803
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 1: Sometimes they can't do it if they haven't earned more

804
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: than a certain dollar amount during the period. But that

805
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: isn't always meaningful becus they haven't learned that much. They

806
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 1: may not want to they got the option anyway, but

807
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,359
Speaker 1: it's still a good protection to build in for yourself. Now.

808
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 1: A lot of the acts from the late sixties and

809
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 1: early seventies had we version clauses because the company's thought

810
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 1: that these records would ultimately be worth nothing. To what

811
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 1: degree are those gotten today? And also the issue of

812
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 1: ownership of the underlying copyright. Are you talking about records now,

813
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 1: are publishing? I'm talking about the record deal, record deal. Uh,

814
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 1: it is, yes, you're you're quite right. There was a

815
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: versions because everybody assumed they'd be valueless after ten or

816
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 1: fifteen years, and those were easy to get back. Then

817
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: not so much anymore. The companies the masters are their

818
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: companies uh, primary assets. So they are much less likely

819
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 1: to part with them these days if they if they

820
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 1: can avoid it, if you have enough cloud, you can

821
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: make a deal where you own your masters and you

822
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 1: basically rent them to them. Uh and uh. And so

823
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 1: that's still doable, but it can be again, it can

824
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: be a period of time. It would be not a

825
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,360
Speaker 1: short period of time, maybe ten or fifteen years after

826
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 1: the end of your term of your deal. Uh. And

827
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 1: it would be dependent on you being recouped, although we

828
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 1: negotiate and ask for the right to if you're unrecouped,

829
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 1: I say a hundred thousand dollars, we give you a

830
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars, and then we get the masters back

831
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: right away after this time period is up. And one

832
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 1: thing that has always you know, bothered me is a

833
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 1: recording costs, a recording cost. If you go into a

834
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 1: studio and you pay a dollar, doesn't matter whether you're

835
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 1: a superstar or you're a new artist. Yet you recoup

836
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 1: at different rates. Can that ever change? Well, you're going

837
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: to recoup at your royalty rate. The higher your royalty right,

838
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 1: the faster you recoup. I guess yeah. I feel before

839
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: you get the royalty rate dollar for dollar, if you

840
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 1: spend a hundred thousand dollars making the record, okay, once

841
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 1: they got a hundred thousand in however, with a percentage,

842
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 1: but the superstars should recoup at the same rate when

843
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,359
Speaker 1: it comes to costs. Then when we go to pain,

844
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: you should go to your royalty rate. It seems like

845
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 1: you're doubly screwed as a new act. You're getting a

846
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 1: lower ROULETI hated, you're recouping even slower. Yes, I mean

847
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 1: to some degree, that's true, and that's historical as to

848
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 1: why it work that way. Um, you can do on

849
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: a on a profit sharing deal, they will still generally

850
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 1: try to put some of the costs against the artists

851
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 1: of the profits, although that's negotiable as well. But but

852
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 1: when you do a profit share deal, you also have

853
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: things charged against you that would not be charged against

854
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: you if you were just recouping um. And that's things

855
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,720
Speaker 1: becoming less relevant. But it's things like manufacturing and shipping

856
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 1: and freight and bad debts and those kinds of things. Again,

857
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 1: those are becoming less relevant. But there are some marketing

858
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 1: costs and promotion that might not be charged against you

859
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 1: as an artist. Uh So it's not exactly apples to apples,

860
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:06,280
Speaker 1: but in a profit share deal you can come closer

861
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: to what you're talking about. And let's talk about delivery issues.

862
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 1: I have a commitment of twenty masters, the term goes by,

863
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 1: I've only delivered ten. What tends to happen there? Well,

864
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 1: the term doesn't these days. The term doesn't end until

865
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,720
Speaker 1: you've delivered it. So the term can't go by before

866
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 1: you've done it, because the record companies got stuck with

867
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 1: that years ago and changed their contracts based on the

868
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: fact that now they're saying, you know, the termines x

869
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:38,439
Speaker 1: months after delivery of the product for that term. Okay,

870
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 1: let's go back to you originally, I mean I know this,

871
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:44,720
Speaker 1: but for my listeners, you originally from where Dallas, Texas?

872
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 1: And how many generations is your family in Dallas. Um. Well,

873
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: let's see, my grandparents on one side were in Dallas.

874
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: The other ones I think we're in Houston or Galveston. Wow,

875
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 1: so they why did they end up in uh? Texas? Uh?

876
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:06,720
Speaker 1: The short answer is I'm not sure. Um the because

877
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 1: I never knew those grandparents who had the chance to

878
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: talk him. I know that my father's side, you know,

879
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,919
Speaker 1: came through Ellis Island, went to New York, drifted down

880
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 1: to New Orleans and ended up somehow in Galthaston. My

881
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 1: mother's side came through one side came through Canada. One

882
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:28,320
Speaker 1: side games for Kansas City. I don't know the exact

883
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 1: story of how they got there, but that's where they were. Okay.

884
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: You know Texans, and I know people from that area

885
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 1: attend of a lot of pride in Texas. Do you

886
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 1: have that pride? Um? I like Texas? I mean, I

887
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 1: uh it's It's not a place I would choose to

888
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 1: live today, but I loved growing up there, and uh

889
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 1: it has a lot of unique and sort of fun

890
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: aspects to it. Okay, and your parents did what for

891
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 1: a living? Uh? My father was a lawyer in Dallas. Uh.

892
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 1: Interesting guy rep presented abes a pruder the guy who

893
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 1: took the Kennedy films and and represented Jacob Rubinstein, who

894
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 1: changed his name to Jack Ruby. Let's slow down that

895
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:17,840
Speaker 1: faithful weekend Friday, Kennedy gets shot in Dallas. What was

896
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 1: it like being in Dallas? Then of course the chapter

897
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: with Jack Ruby. Then of course there's a pruder chapter. Well,

898
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 1: those are all a bit tied together. I was not

899
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 1: in Dallas. I was in Austin. I was in college

900
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 1: at the University of Texas when Kennedy was shot. Um

901
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 1: and I went to Dallas the next day it was

902
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving and uh my, in fact, we went over to

903
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: abes a Brewer's house the following day because my he

904
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 1: was He was related. His daughter was married to my

905
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:50,320
Speaker 1: first cousin. So my father on the drive over says,

906
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: don't talk to Abe about the Kennedy film. He's sick

907
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,879
Speaker 1: of it. Everybody's hounding him. Don't say a word. So

908
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 1: we get there and everybody's sitting in a semicircle and

909
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: Abe striding back and forth with great gusto telling this

910
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 1: entire story. That's why it always is. And Okay, what

911
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 1: about Jack Ruby. Uh, he was a small time guy

912
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:17,359
Speaker 1: in Texas that years before the Kennedy assassination. My father

913
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 1: represented him when he changed his name from Jacob Rubinstein

914
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 1: to Jack Ruby, and I just I think it's a

915
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 1: pretty bizarical incidence. Uh. And then once what once he

916
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 1: shoots Oswald? As your father involved in any of the representation, No,

917
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 1: my dad said he called him uh and wanted him

918
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,280
Speaker 1: to help, but he said, I'm not a criminal lawyer

919
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 1: and honestly didn't want to get involved. But uh, but

920
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 1: he did not have anything further to do with him.

921
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 1: What do you and your father believe was Oswald the

922
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 1: lone gunman? Was Ruby acting purely on anger and inspiration,

923
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 1: you know? Uh. My dad's theory was he was a

924
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 1: small time guy and not that connected and probably acting

925
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 1: on his own Ruby that is Oswald. I don't think

926
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:14,280
Speaker 1: either of us have any better idea than anybody else. Okay,

927
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:16,320
Speaker 1: so you're growing up. How many kids in the family?

928
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 1: Just me? Just you, It's me. My parents got divorced

929
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 1: when I was five years old. So, uh, this is

930
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:26,720
Speaker 1: another thing I did not know. Your parents get divorced

931
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: and what are their paths? Well, my dad stayed in Dallas,

932
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 1: he had a law firm there, and my mom moved

933
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: to remarried to a disc jockey who had a was

934
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 1: a colorful personality jock and uh in Dallas, and got

935
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 1: a job at kf w B in Los Angeles when

936
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:47,360
Speaker 1: it was the uh top uh, you know, top forty

937
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 1: station and he had the morning drive. So we moved

938
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:53,280
Speaker 1: to California. And that was how I got to Los Angeles. Okay.

939
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:56,439
Speaker 1: So what was his handle online? That was his name,

940
00:52:56,600 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 1: Bruce Hays. Okay. So you go to school first in Dallas,

941
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,720
Speaker 1: you go to public school or private school? Public school? Okay?

942
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 1: And at what age do you move to Los Angeles?

943
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:12,719
Speaker 1: I was twelve, okay. Can you moved where in l A,

944
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 1: North Hollywood? Okay? And how do you end up going

945
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 1: to college back in Austin Um? When I got out

946
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 1: of car and when I was getting out of high school,

947
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 1: I realized I spent more of my life in Texas

948
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 1: and California, and I thought maybe I'd want to go

949
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 1: back and live in Texas. And my mother and my

950
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:36,720
Speaker 1: father and my grandmother, who graduated from college in nineteen seventeen,

951
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,800
Speaker 1: pretty unusual for a woman, had all gone to the

952
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 1: University of Texas, and I thought, Okay, I'll get out

953
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 1: of l A I'll give it a try. And so

954
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 1: I went to UT And did you get in state tuition?

955
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 1: I think I did, actually, because my my father still

956
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:56,280
Speaker 1: live there. Okay, you know Austin has seen as super

957
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 1: hip today. What was it like when you went to college?

958
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:01,359
Speaker 1: It was a hot and eight degrees from super hit.

959
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 1: It was a football team with no African American players

960
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,880
Speaker 1: because the coach said he thought it would demoralize his

961
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:14,360
Speaker 1: boys to uh to put as he put it in. Yeah,

962
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 1: it wasn't like it was a pretense, Um. It was.

963
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 1: It was very very football beer. Um. And I was

964
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 1: not a particularly good fit. I was it was. You

965
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 1: might ask why didn't transfer? And the answer was it

966
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,879
Speaker 1: never occurred to me? Um. But I didn't really enjoy

967
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 1: it till my second year when I started a band

968
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:39,760
Speaker 1: and we had what I believe was the first mixed

969
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 1: band in UH in Austin history. We had a black

970
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:46,359
Speaker 1: singer and a white band and UH and that when

971
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 1: we started playing frat parties and we're booked pretty solid.

972
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 1: Then I had a great time. Okay, A couple of questions.

973
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 1: When did you start playing music? Um? I started playing

974
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 1: music when I was young. I played the accordion when

975
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 1: I was, uh, you know, six or seven years old,

976
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:05,240
Speaker 1: and I took up the guitar in high school and

977
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 1: I took up the banjo when I was in law school.

978
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:11,759
Speaker 1: And so I've always loved music. Okay, So when you

979
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 1: have this band, this is pre Beatles in Austin, Yes,

980
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 1: And what kind of music are you playing? It was

981
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:20,880
Speaker 1: mostly R and B and it was we were just

982
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 1: cover bands. We had a couple of original songs, one

983
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:26,839
Speaker 1: of which has become a bit of a cult hit.

984
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 1: Uh and uh, I've had collectors called me and I

985
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 1: want to buy some of the forty five from the era. Um.

986
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 1: But but for the most part it was a cover band.

987
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:40,759
Speaker 1: So what was the track and what was the band? Oh?

988
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 1: The band was called Oedipus and the Mothers, and the

989
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 1: track is how it used to be. And do you

990
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 1: have any for I have I think one or two left? Yes?

991
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 1: Did you? Did you sell any of them to these collectors?

992
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 1: I saw one of them because the guy seemed really

993
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 1: hot for it, and sincere about wanting it? So yeah,

994
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 1: And what did you study the UT I majored in history.

995
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 1: I was going to major in psychology because I was

996
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 1: enjoying in those classes. So much. But you needed to

997
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 1: take analytical geometry and statistics and I did not. I

998
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:17,839
Speaker 1: took analytical geometry, had no clue what they were talking about,

999
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 1: ended up dropping it. So I minored in psychology, basically

1000
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 1: taking every class except those, and majored in history. Okay,

1001
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:28,919
Speaker 1: you graduate from UT do you immediately go to law

1002
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 1: school or do you take time off? No? I went.

1003
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 1: I went directly to law school. Less common in those

1004
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 1: days to take time off than it would be today.

1005
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:38,319
Speaker 1: To what degree did you go to law school because

1006
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:41,920
Speaker 1: your father was a lawyer? Big part of it. Um.

1007
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I always enjoyed arguing, I

1008
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 1: always enjoyed logic. I always enjoyed, you know, trying to

1009
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:54,279
Speaker 1: understand complex things, make them simple, figure out how to

1010
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:57,399
Speaker 1: what motivates people, and how to move things from one

1011
00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 1: side to the other. So it played very much into

1012
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,719
Speaker 1: what I was interested in. And your desire was to

1013
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 1: go to Harvard. Yes, and you know, I'm needless to say,

1014
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 1: there's the one l book, there's you know, there's the

1015
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:13,399
Speaker 1: paper Chase. What was your experience at Harvard Law School? Well,

1016
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:17,280
Speaker 1: paper Chase was written by one of my classmates. Um,

1017
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 1: but I I and I loved it. At Harvard Law School,

1018
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 1: I thought it was the most intellectually challenged I've ever

1019
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 1: been in my life. It was a lot of really interesting,

1020
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 1: bright people in my class. I thought the professors, you know,

1021
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 1: some of them were dullards, but for the most part,

1022
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 1: we're interesting and engaging. And I was intrigued by the

1023
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 1: subject matter. So I really enjoyed the experience. And you

1024
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 1: graduate in what's the plan? Um? The plan was. I

1025
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 1: had two offers, one from a I thought I wanted

1026
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 1: to be a tax lawyer originally when I went to

1027
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 1: law school because I liked tax and intricate problems and

1028
00:57:55,760 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 1: um and so. But then after my second year, I

1029
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:03,440
Speaker 1: saw a firm put up a thing that said entertainment

1030
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 1: law was one of their specialties, and I've never heard

1031
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 1: of it, and I thought, oh, that sounds like fun.

1032
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 1: And so I was thinking about whether I should go

1033
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 1: to an entertainment firm or a tax firm. But I

1034
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:17,040
Speaker 1: decided to try a tax firm. A firm here and

1035
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:20,200
Speaker 1: I lay called Irell and Manella, which is now mostly litigation,

1036
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 1: but then was a premier tax firm, and I had

1037
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 1: an offer from them. So I took a summer clerkship

1038
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 1: with them, and while I was here, I interviewed with

1039
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 1: several entertainment firms, including the one I worked for now,

1040
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:34,880
Speaker 1: And when I graduated, I had an offer from both

1041
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 1: at an offer from my real and an offer from

1042
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 1: a gang Tire, which is my current firm, and I

1043
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 1: went back and forth about it, but I really said,

1044
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 1: you know, come over here and do tax work and

1045
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 1: we're going to start an entertainment area. You can do both.

1046
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:49,480
Speaker 1: You can be part of the beginning of it. And

1047
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 1: it sounded intriguing and I ended up going there, and

1048
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 1: as soon as I got there it was not a

1049
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 1: good experience. They put me into mergers and acquisitions, which

1050
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 1: I had no interest and I wasn't doing tax I

1051
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:04,720
Speaker 1: wasn't doing entertainment. And I stayed there about it, and

1052
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:07,560
Speaker 1: then I took a class at USC on the music business,

1053
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 1: talked by Jay Cooper and Irwin O. Spegel old timer's.

1054
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 1: Uh Jay's still around, Irwin isn't um And it was

1055
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 1: so much fun. I thought I'm wasting my time. So

1056
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 1: I went back to gang Tire said, hey, I made

1057
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:25,720
Speaker 1: a mistake, and uh, fortunately they let me switch and

1058
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:29,160
Speaker 1: I've been there ever since. And how long after how

1059
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 1: long did you actually work at IRAL in Manoa? About

1060
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:38,320
Speaker 1: eighteen months? Okay, So you start at gang Tire in

1061
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 1: what year, nineteen seventy two? Okay, you know there are

1062
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 1: billboards on Sunset, the music businesses burgeoning. Do they immediately

1063
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:50,200
Speaker 1: put in music or I don't know about gang tied

1064
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,720
Speaker 1: or what degree there in other entertainment venues. Yeah, they

1065
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 1: Their theory was you should do a bit of everything.

1066
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 1: So I was doing film, I was doing music, and

1067
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 1: they were doing litigation in those days, which I did

1068
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 1: not particularly enjoy, but it was part of the process.

1069
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 1: I ended up, in fact, doing two trials with a

1070
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 1: senior partner. But I couldn't wait to get out of litigation.

1071
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 1: Uh and uh. And I was so passionate about music

1072
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:15,800
Speaker 1: that they eventually sort of got it and let me

1073
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:18,960
Speaker 1: start moving into the music as opposed to the film

1074
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 1: and TV side of it. And who was the boss

1075
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 1: of the music in when you did that, Well, Bruce

1076
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 1: Raymer was doing a lot of it, and Payson Wolfe,

1077
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 1: who was really my mentor, was was doing most of it.

1078
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:34,479
Speaker 1: When I started out, the firm was representing almost all

1079
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 1: record companies and publishing companies on the corporate side, and uh,

1080
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 1: my heart was always on the artist side. But it

1081
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 1: was enormously good training. In those days, they didn't have

1082
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:50,000
Speaker 1: as much in house capability, so the larger deals they

1083
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 1: would farm out to us and we were So I

1084
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 1: got this great training doing really sophisticated deals on behalf

1085
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:58,800
Speaker 1: of the record label, dealing with all the talent lawyers

1086
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 1: in town, and learned a draft and I learned what

1087
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:05,080
Speaker 1: everybody was asking for and it was a fabulous education.

1088
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 1: But my heart was on the artist side. So I

1089
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 1: set out to build an artist practice. And how long

1090
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 1: did you were you at gang Tied before you started

1091
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:20,840
Speaker 1: working on the other side. Um, well, it was gradual,

1092
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:23,440
Speaker 1: because you know, that wasn't most of our business. So

1093
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:25,920
Speaker 1: I had to build the artist thing from scratch. I

1094
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:29,080
Speaker 1: started doing it pretty quickly, just but that was because

1095
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 1: I just took anybody to walked in the door. Um,

1096
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:34,480
Speaker 1: I go to be in my showcases, I go to uh,

1097
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:37,760
Speaker 1: you know, just ask anybody to send me whatever, because

1098
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:40,040
Speaker 1: I just wanted to get experience and I wanted to

1099
01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:43,080
Speaker 1: start to get into the artist world. So that begs

1100
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 1: a question, although you're referencing it, to what degree did

1101
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:48,440
Speaker 1: you work trying to get a client base, and how

1102
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:52,440
Speaker 1: did you actually get a client bass Um slowly was

1103
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 1: the answer. But yes, it was something very intentional and

1104
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:58,720
Speaker 1: something I worked very hard for. It was My theory

1105
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:01,200
Speaker 1: was is that if I met as many people as

1106
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:04,080
Speaker 1: possible that were my age, then when they grew up

1107
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:06,480
Speaker 1: in the business, I have relationships. I knew that was

1108
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:08,960
Speaker 1: a long term strategy, but I didn't think a bad one.

1109
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 1: And then I just went out and not as many

1110
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:15,120
Speaker 1: people as I could. I remember you you were speaking

1111
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:19,240
Speaker 1: once at the Beverly Hills Bar Association, probably ninety or something.

1112
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:22,040
Speaker 1: Did you consciously take all those speaking gigs to drive

1113
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:26,280
Speaker 1: your business? I did, uh, and that and I like

1114
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 1: speaking anyway. Um Uh, as a friend of mine says,

1115
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 1: I'll go miles to hear myself speak. So what was

1116
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 1: the turning point? What client pushed you into? Uh? The

1117
01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:41,920
Speaker 1: story you are now? Um. Probably Heart was the first one,

1118
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:45,040
Speaker 1: and then Tina Turner was the second. I think when

1119
01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 1: when I had both of them, that really changed the game.

1120
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:52,560
Speaker 1: And how did you get them? Uh? Different ways? Heart

1121
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 1: came through their producer was a client of mine and

1122
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:57,760
Speaker 1: they were looking to make a change, and he got

1123
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:01,560
Speaker 1: me an introduction to him. Uh. Tina came through her manager,

1124
01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 1: who I had met on the other side of a deal,

1125
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 1: uh where we were representing, and I got to know

1126
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:10,160
Speaker 1: him and when he looked to make a change, he

1127
01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:14,920
Speaker 1: called okay. So this always pigs a question when you're

1128
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 1: an attorney, do you look back and say, not specifically

1129
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:20,320
Speaker 1: with the act you mentioned, Oh, if I knew what

1130
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:22,880
Speaker 1: I do now, I screwed up. Yeah, you know, I

1131
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:26,440
Speaker 1: honestly don't. I mean, obviously I made mistakes along the

1132
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:30,040
Speaker 1: way everybody does. I don't know that I would change

1133
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:33,240
Speaker 1: the overall strategy. It was just frustrating because it took

1134
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:37,440
Speaker 1: a long time. Um, and uh, I watched guys my age,

1135
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 1: you know, sale passed me and and do better, and

1136
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:44,280
Speaker 1: that was that was frustrating and a little disconcerting. But

1137
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:46,880
Speaker 1: I you know, I was I just determined to be

1138
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 1: the tortoise in the race, if not the hair and

1139
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:52,520
Speaker 1: it came I think in the time frame that it

1140
01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:56,520
Speaker 1: should have. But I can't point to any particular thing

1141
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:59,040
Speaker 1: that I think is a major change. And to what

1142
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:03,800
Speaker 1: did we do? These acts change attorneys at this point? Yeah,

1143
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:06,000
Speaker 1: it depends on the artist. I mean, you know there

1144
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:10,040
Speaker 1: are people that change attorneys like they change their sneakers. Uh,

1145
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 1: and there's other people that stick around for years and years.

1146
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:16,200
Speaker 1: Our philosophy is different from a lot of our competitors.

1147
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:21,080
Speaker 1: Were a very small firm. There's only three lawyers doing music. Uh,

1148
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:24,720
Speaker 1: and do paralegals and uh. We want to be able

1149
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:27,600
Speaker 1: to give really and you know, hands on service to

1150
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:30,520
Speaker 1: a few number of clients. So we're selective about it.

1151
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:32,240
Speaker 1: We take and one of the things we look for

1152
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:35,040
Speaker 1: is someone that we think, uh, you know, is a

1153
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:37,400
Speaker 1: good person and that we can have a long term

1154
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:40,520
Speaker 1: relationship with. And your name is finally on the door.

1155
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:44,880
Speaker 1: How did that happen? Oh? Just maybe just because it

1156
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 1: was time? Okay, So can you tell us a couple

1157
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:53,240
Speaker 1: of tales from your career? Uh that you know that

1158
01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 1: people would like to hear around the fire. Unfortunately, a

1159
01:04:57,120 --> 01:04:59,480
Speaker 1: lot of what I talk, you know, I've learned I

1160
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:04,720
Speaker 1: can't talk about because attorney client privilege. Yeah, exactly. UM,

1161
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:07,520
Speaker 1: so it may be a little too general of a question.

1162
01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:12,479
Speaker 1: So okay, now you have other interests for someone who's

1163
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:14,560
Speaker 1: working so hard. First, let's talk about the book. How

1164
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:17,080
Speaker 1: did you decide to write the book? Well, I was

1165
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:20,040
Speaker 1: teaching the class. I told you I took at USC

1166
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:23,880
Speaker 1: on the music business. I ended up teaching, and I

1167
01:05:23,920 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 1: was taught it for about three years, and it dawned

1168
01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:31,920
Speaker 1: on me that I had in my class note outline

1169
01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:34,920
Speaker 1: the outline of a book. And there was only one

1170
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:37,640
Speaker 1: book on the music business at the time, called This

1171
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:43,040
Speaker 1: Business of Music, and it was it was a good resource,

1172
01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:45,400
Speaker 1: but it was very difficult to read, and even as

1173
01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:48,840
Speaker 1: a lawyer, I had trouble understanding parts of it. And

1174
01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:51,960
Speaker 1: I thought, you know, there's a need for a very

1175
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 1: easy to read overview for people who are musicians oriented.

1176
01:05:56,120 --> 01:05:59,440
Speaker 1: Their ears don't like to read. Uh, And you know,

1177
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:01,600
Speaker 1: so I wanted to write something that was simple and

1178
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:04,320
Speaker 1: easy to understand. I always wanted to write a book

1179
01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:07,040
Speaker 1: all my life. I started and stopped trying to write

1180
01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 1: a book and never really finished one. And I thought,

1181
01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:12,680
Speaker 1: you know, here's a chance to put together a bunch

1182
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:14,600
Speaker 1: of things. And I thought there was a need in

1183
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:17,760
Speaker 1: the marketplace to do it. So I literally grabbed a

1184
01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:21,080
Speaker 1: dictaphone I started talking based on it, and uh, you know,

1185
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:23,280
Speaker 1: about a year and a half later, I I had

1186
01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:27,280
Speaker 1: I had the book and was it instantly successful. I mean,

1187
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:30,080
Speaker 1: I'm inside, so I'm viewing this you know a little differently,

1188
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:32,280
Speaker 1: but a book like that has to sell a certain

1189
01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:35,040
Speaker 1: number of copies to be worthwhile. He what was the

1190
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:38,640
Speaker 1: initial was the initial publisher Simon and Schuster. Yeah, it was.

1191
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:42,600
Speaker 1: It was a story was I was at dinner at

1192
01:06:42,600 --> 01:06:45,440
Speaker 1: at an event next to Michael Ovits, who at the

1193
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:48,120
Speaker 1: time was at the height of his powers, and I

1194
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 1: told him, was telling him about the book, and he said, oh,

1195
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:52,880
Speaker 1: let me sell it for you. And I'm not an idiot.

1196
01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:55,440
Speaker 1: If Michael Evits wants to sell my book, I went sure.

1197
01:06:56,400 --> 01:06:58,720
Speaker 1: So I sent him the book and a week later

1198
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:01,840
Speaker 1: I have two offers from uh, from two different publishers

1199
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:03,560
Speaker 1: in New York. So I got on a plane and

1200
01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:05,960
Speaker 1: I went and I met him and Simon and Schuster.

1201
01:07:06,080 --> 01:07:08,400
Speaker 1: The editor who wanted it was a twenty seven year

1202
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:10,080
Speaker 1: old guy at the time who was in a band

1203
01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:13,640
Speaker 1: on weekends and completely got the book and it was

1204
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:17,240
Speaker 1: very helpful in terms of helping crafted as well. So

1205
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:21,280
Speaker 1: I went with them, and uh, you know it was.

1206
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:24,080
Speaker 1: It didn't happen immediately out of the box. It took

1207
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 1: time for people to get used to it and uh,

1208
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:29,440
Speaker 1: and then I did a lot of fublicity around it

1209
01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:32,840
Speaker 1: at the time. And I thought, you know, it'll be

1210
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:35,400
Speaker 1: a long, slow build, but it seemed to start to

1211
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:38,080
Speaker 1: build and built by word of mouth. And we just

1212
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:41,080
Speaker 1: released the tenth edition last year. And how do you

1213
01:07:41,120 --> 01:07:44,800
Speaker 1: decide to update it? I generally do it about every

1214
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:48,560
Speaker 1: three years. This one took four years because streaming so

1215
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:52,840
Speaker 1: up into the business that I had to seriously and

1216
01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:56,040
Speaker 1: radically rewrite the book, the most extensive rewrite since the

1217
01:07:56,040 --> 01:07:59,880
Speaker 1: first edition. Really, uh, and because it just I mean,

1218
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:02,560
Speaker 1: things you wouldn't think about, like the CD royalties were

1219
01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:06,240
Speaker 1: first in the chapter on royalties. Well that's obviously almost

1220
01:08:06,240 --> 01:08:10,760
Speaker 1: irrelevant now, so they're not first anymore. The whole publishing section,

1221
01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:13,720
Speaker 1: the way the industry was shaped has changed over the

1222
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:17,080
Speaker 1: last four years. It's just it's a very radical rewrite.

1223
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:21,240
Speaker 1: And you have these other interests. You've written novels, you

1224
01:08:21,400 --> 01:08:25,000
Speaker 1: play poker, you have magic. Could cover those a little

1225
01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:29,920
Speaker 1: for us, sure. Basically, I'm a serial obsessive and I

1226
01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:33,880
Speaker 1: go to um, you know, I had intensely involved in something,

1227
01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:36,160
Speaker 1: and then I'll burn out and move on to something else.

1228
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:39,680
Speaker 1: And I don't relax by doing nothing. I relaxed by

1229
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:42,639
Speaker 1: doing something very different, but just as intense. I don't

1230
01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:45,400
Speaker 1: know why. It's just the way I'm wired. So uh.

1231
01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:47,240
Speaker 1: You know, magic was a hobby since I was a

1232
01:08:47,240 --> 01:08:50,200
Speaker 1: little kid. I drifted and out of that one UM

1233
01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:53,400
Speaker 1: Poker I've been playing the last number of years pretty

1234
01:08:53,439 --> 01:08:56,000
Speaker 1: seriously because I enjoy it. And I was in a

1235
01:08:56,040 --> 01:09:00,920
Speaker 1: regular dame until COVID hit UM the backgam and I

1236
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:05,120
Speaker 1: started recently and uh and took some lessons and I

1237
01:09:05,200 --> 01:09:07,599
Speaker 1: found out that was fascinating because it turns out it's

1238
01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:11,559
Speaker 1: very mathematical, very strategic, and not that I love math

1239
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:14,519
Speaker 1: all that much, but I can enough to understand how

1240
01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:17,080
Speaker 1: it works. Um and you know, and then I just

1241
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:19,880
Speaker 1: drift in and out of various other interests. Well, I

1242
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:24,400
Speaker 1: know you've written these books, these novels. Uh, do you

1243
01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:27,200
Speaker 1: has that something that sort of ended because you talk

1244
01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:31,120
Speaker 1: about being a serial obsessive. Has your focus changed from that?

1245
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:34,920
Speaker 1: It comes in and out. Actually, I have another novel

1246
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:38,200
Speaker 1: that I finished last year that I'm still editing and

1247
01:09:38,280 --> 01:09:42,400
Speaker 1: working on. Uh and uh. I I have someone optioned

1248
01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:44,920
Speaker 1: one of my novels for a motion picture, and I

1249
01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:47,040
Speaker 1: worked on the script for that no idea if it

1250
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:49,400
Speaker 1: will actually ever get made. But that was fine. I've

1251
01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:52,360
Speaker 1: never done a script before, So it just depends I

1252
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:55,720
Speaker 1: have to go with where the news takes me. And

1253
01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:58,680
Speaker 1: how bit a magician are you? I'm pretty good. I'm

1254
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:01,479
Speaker 1: a magician member of the Magic Castle, which means you

1255
01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:04,479
Speaker 1: have to take a test in order to be admitted.

1256
01:10:05,439 --> 01:10:09,360
Speaker 1: And uh, you know cards mostly I'm I'm a bit rusty,

1257
01:10:09,439 --> 01:10:13,080
Speaker 1: but I could still fool you, okay. And how good

1258
01:10:13,080 --> 01:10:16,040
Speaker 1: a poker player are you? I'm pretty good. I play

1259
01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:19,000
Speaker 1: at pretty high level games. I wouldn't say I'm a

1260
01:10:19,040 --> 01:10:22,040
Speaker 1: great poker player because the guys that do it full

1261
01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:25,240
Speaker 1: time in the pros are obviously at a whole different

1262
01:10:25,320 --> 01:10:28,040
Speaker 1: level from where I play the game. But I can

1263
01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:30,080
Speaker 1: hold my own. I can play in a game and uh,

1264
01:10:30,360 --> 01:10:33,760
Speaker 1: and not you know, not be the complete dufus. So

1265
01:10:33,920 --> 01:10:35,640
Speaker 1: what kind of when you say it's serious, what kind

1266
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:39,479
Speaker 1: of players? Oh? I mean, you know, it just depends

1267
01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:41,160
Speaker 1: on news. In the game. I'll go to I'll go

1268
01:10:41,200 --> 01:10:43,840
Speaker 1: down to Commerce where they have a the world's largest

1269
01:10:43,880 --> 01:10:46,599
Speaker 1: poker room, or I'll go to Vegas and that at

1270
01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:49,040
Speaker 1: the higher games, you're gonna get professionals and you're gonna

1271
01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:52,599
Speaker 1: get you know, serious players. Um, but it's it's you know,

1272
01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:54,599
Speaker 1: for me, it's just fun. I mean, I'm not gonna

1273
01:10:54,720 --> 01:10:57,599
Speaker 1: play with my I'm not gonna lose the house. Okay,

1274
01:10:57,680 --> 01:11:02,479
Speaker 1: So what's your biggest loss in your biggest win? Um

1275
01:11:02,560 --> 01:11:05,160
Speaker 1: M hmmm. I don't know. I mean, you know, I

1276
01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:08,479
Speaker 1: don't play gigantic stakes, but I think i've I've lost

1277
01:11:08,520 --> 01:11:10,400
Speaker 1: a few thousand in a session and I have won

1278
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:15,080
Speaker 1: a few thousand in a session, but somewhere in that range. Okay,

1279
01:11:15,479 --> 01:11:18,080
Speaker 1: You've been through a lot of changes. You got in

1280
01:11:18,080 --> 01:11:20,439
Speaker 1: the business, went from vinyl to cassette. I think you

1281
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:22,760
Speaker 1: were kind of you know, came in towards the end

1282
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:25,160
Speaker 1: of the eight track. We went to c D, went

1283
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:28,439
Speaker 1: to streaming, We went to touring being the dominant amount

1284
01:11:28,439 --> 01:11:30,920
Speaker 1: of money. If you look in the crystal ball, what

1285
01:11:30,960 --> 01:11:33,880
Speaker 1: do you see coming down the line? I think it's

1286
01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:36,559
Speaker 1: gonna be streaming for quite a while. I mean, I

1287
01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:39,760
Speaker 1: think it's such a good experience that I'm not sure

1288
01:11:39,760 --> 01:11:42,360
Speaker 1: what more you could want as as a consumer. The

1289
01:11:42,400 --> 01:11:44,559
Speaker 1: ability to listen to anything you want, any time you

1290
01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:47,040
Speaker 1: want it, and the ability to have it curated if

1291
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:50,680
Speaker 1: you want to curated. Um, I think that's going to

1292
01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:53,400
Speaker 1: be the dominant thing for for quite a bit of time,

1293
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:57,160
Speaker 1: I'm genuinely don't have I did see streaming coming a

1294
01:11:57,200 --> 01:12:01,519
Speaker 1: long time ago, before the technology is there, but I don't.

1295
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:04,800
Speaker 1: I don't have a vision of what's coming next to you. Well,

1296
01:12:04,840 --> 01:12:08,040
Speaker 1: I think streaming is in because he's on demand. So

1297
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:10,479
Speaker 1: that's we come to the end of the game, which

1298
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:13,320
Speaker 1: is so much of what's happening in you know, we

1299
01:12:13,400 --> 01:12:15,280
Speaker 1: figured it out in the music business. They're still going

1300
01:12:15,280 --> 01:12:19,720
Speaker 1: through wrenching transitions in the movie business, television business, etcetera.

1301
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:23,680
Speaker 1: But I was really asking overall, Okay, used to be

1302
01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:27,120
Speaker 1: the record companies were big banks. You went on tour

1303
01:12:27,160 --> 01:12:29,320
Speaker 1: to promote the record. You've made most of the money

1304
01:12:29,320 --> 01:12:33,200
Speaker 1: on the record. Now that has flipped. Okay, used to

1305
01:12:33,240 --> 01:12:36,360
Speaker 1: be record companies supported you over a period of albums.

1306
01:12:36,880 --> 01:12:40,479
Speaker 1: Right now hip hop is dominant on streaming services, not

1307
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:44,759
Speaker 1: necessarily dominant on the road. Do you see any trends

1308
01:12:44,880 --> 01:12:49,519
Speaker 1: playing out? I think that, Um, I don't have a

1309
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:52,160
Speaker 1: specific trend that I see, except to know that it's

1310
01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:55,160
Speaker 1: cyclical that I you know, never nothing ever goes in

1311
01:12:55,240 --> 01:12:57,760
Speaker 1: a straight line, and things come in and out of

1312
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:00,320
Speaker 1: vogue and in and out of fashion. So I think

1313
01:13:00,360 --> 01:13:03,080
Speaker 1: that will change. I do think that there's something in

1314
01:13:03,120 --> 01:13:06,120
Speaker 1: the live experience that you don't get any other way,

1315
01:13:06,240 --> 01:13:09,800
Speaker 1: and so I think touring will always be around for

1316
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:11,840
Speaker 1: the right kind of artists that can that can tour.

1317
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:14,840
Speaker 1: But I don't see any any I mean, particularly now

1318
01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:16,920
Speaker 1: with COVID, it's pretty hard to spot much of anything.

1319
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:19,559
Speaker 1: But I don't see a change in the trend hip hop.

1320
01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:21,519
Speaker 1: I think it has been nominant for quite a period

1321
01:13:21,560 --> 01:13:24,519
Speaker 1: of time. It's just a lot more blatant now. Okay,

1322
01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:26,439
Speaker 1: used to be the barrier to entry to be in

1323
01:13:26,479 --> 01:13:29,880
Speaker 1: the music business was very high, assuming getting a record deal.

1324
01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:32,760
Speaker 1: Now the barrier to entry is almost non existence. We

1325
01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:36,759
Speaker 1: can put anything up on these streaming services. In terms

1326
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:41,120
Speaker 1: of your viewpoint, it would seem that the development period

1327
01:13:41,479 --> 01:13:45,120
Speaker 1: would be longer. And what do you say to new

1328
01:13:45,160 --> 01:13:48,880
Speaker 1: acts today? Well, honestly, I don't have a lot of

1329
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:51,559
Speaker 1: interaction with brand new acts. I mean, by the time

1330
01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:54,080
Speaker 1: they get to me, um, they're usually a little bit

1331
01:13:54,120 --> 01:13:57,400
Speaker 1: farther along. But I think that the thing that I

1332
01:13:57,479 --> 01:13:59,559
Speaker 1: say in my book all you need to know about

1333
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:02,080
Speaker 1: the music business is that you've got to build a

1334
01:14:02,120 --> 01:14:04,160
Speaker 1: bus before you go anywhere, and you've got to do

1335
01:14:04,200 --> 01:14:06,920
Speaker 1: it yourself because nobody's really going to do it for you.

1336
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:09,519
Speaker 1: It's got to be you know, you've got to develop

1337
01:14:09,560 --> 01:14:11,800
Speaker 1: an online following. You've got to develop a fan base.

1338
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:15,200
Speaker 1: You've got to uh, you know, get out and get

1339
01:14:15,240 --> 01:14:17,720
Speaker 1: a story, get some streaming, get some action, get some

1340
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:22,040
Speaker 1: numbers on SoundCloud, on the streaming services before you can

1341
01:14:22,439 --> 01:14:24,639
Speaker 1: move it to the next level. Well, don I think

1342
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:26,599
Speaker 1: we've come to the end of the feeling we've known.

1343
01:14:27,080 --> 01:14:30,960
Speaker 1: This has been extremely informative. We also learned more about

1344
01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:33,400
Speaker 1: who you actually are, where you come from. Thanks so

1345
01:14:33,479 --> 01:14:36,639
Speaker 1: much for doing this my pleasure. Thank you about until

1346
01:14:36,680 --> 01:14:38,519
Speaker 1: next time. This is Bob left stands