Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to it could happen here. This is Robert Evans,
Speaker 1: and this is a podcast about things calling apart. Uh.
Speaker 1: And today we definitely have a thing's well, I don't know,
Speaker 1: hopefully not falling apart, but certainly getting fucked up episode
Speaker 1: for you. UM. This is going to be been a
Speaker 1: part of the world that probably fairly few Americans spend
Speaker 1: much time thinking about. UM. It's certainly a conflict that's
Speaker 1: kind of been lost in everything that's happening in Ukraine
Speaker 1: right now. UM. But Armenia and Azerbaijan, their neighbor have
Speaker 1: been at a state of more or less regular war
Speaker 1: since UM, since longer than that. But this kind of
Speaker 1: latest wave of it started in UM. It was over
Speaker 1: a breakaway real while what's often referred to as a
Speaker 1: breakaway region that both countries claimed and that stayed kind
Speaker 1: of independent for a very long time until invasion by
Speaker 1: the Azeris in this air which is majority Armenian UM.
Speaker 1: And it was kind of a military disaster for the
Speaker 1: Armenian side. The war went very badly, a lot of
Speaker 1: troops were killed, a lot of territory was taken, and
Speaker 1: ever since the Azeri military has been carrying out border
Speaker 1: strikes in and around areas that are kind of near
Speaker 1: their shared border with Armenia. UM. Over the last ten hours,
Speaker 1: as I record this, and and I'm talking to you
Speaker 1: all on Monday, UHT September, over the last about ten hours, UM,
Speaker 1: the Azeri military has launched a fairly unprecedented set of
Speaker 1: strikes within Armenian territory. UM. So not just kind of
Speaker 1: hitting border areas, and not just hitting military targets, but
Speaker 1: hitting cities, hitting civilian areas, trying to move troops across
Speaker 1: the border. There's video evidence of this. UM. To talk
Speaker 1: about what's happening, what's been happening in the past, over
Speaker 1: the last couple of years, and what's happening now. UM,
Speaker 1: I'd like to welcome on Joe Kasabian. Joe you will
Speaker 1: know from his podcast Lions Led by Donkeys, from his
Speaker 1: book The Hooligans of Kandahar, and a number of other
Speaker 1: books that I think we'll talk about a little bit
Speaker 1: at the end here from his appearances on the Behind
Speaker 1: the Bastard. Joe, you are an American citizen, but you're
Speaker 1: also Armenian and you're currently in our media. Yeah. UM,
Speaker 1: I moved here a couple of months ago permanently, Um,
Speaker 1: citizenship is we kind of have like our own repatriation laws.
Speaker 1: But I'm still waiting on that. UM. And so to
Speaker 1: to go off a couple of things that you said,
Speaker 1: we've been at a state of war effectively since the
Speaker 1: nineties when we first gained independence from the Soviet Union. UM.
Speaker 1: Without going into the incredibly complicated history of Nagano Karabach
Speaker 1: or Artsach Um Artsak still exists. They did not take
Speaker 1: all of it in UM. But Tony Tony was a
Speaker 1: military disaster for Armenia unequivably, so we lost over four
Speaker 1: thousand people. UM. Huge swaths of territory were uh. Their
Speaker 1: population became the victim of a regional genocide. UM. There
Speaker 1: are no Armenians that have been confirmed to still be
Speaker 1: alive within that territory. UM. There's endless videos of a
Speaker 1: ZI troops beheading old men and women and and destroying
Speaker 1: homes and cemeteries and churches. UM. And ever since UH
Speaker 1: the war ended in a month has not gone by
Speaker 1: where UM either art Saw or Armenia itself has not
Speaker 1: been attacked. We've probably lost over a hundred soldiers since then. UM.
Speaker 1: These are kids, their conscripts. We have um military mandatory
Speaker 1: service here. Um. So these are eighteen nineteen year old
Speaker 1: kids doing their two years of service. On top of
Speaker 1: the civilians that are currently being bombed. We we don't
Speaker 1: know how many people are dead at the moment um.
Speaker 1: And it's um, it's truly aggravating. I mean, Armenians live
Speaker 1: with this all the time. It's a sword hanging over
Speaker 1: our heads. When this is going to happen. Um happened
Speaker 1: with unpress attended, international support and not only support, but
Speaker 1: willing willingly ignoring it. Um. I mean NATO powers helped
Speaker 1: as or by Jean dulas Um, Turkey and Israel Israel.
Speaker 1: Israeli drone designers literally test flew as suicide drone into
Speaker 1: Armenian soldiers to sell it. Um. I mean, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's honestly kind of I I don't know what what
Speaker 1: to say about it other than that's it should be
Speaker 1: another thing that the world should be united against and
Speaker 1: they never will. No. I mean, it's it's so frustrating.
Speaker 1: One of the things that I have had a lot
Speaker 1: of issue with because obviously I, as as you are,
Speaker 1: I'm supportive of Ukrainian people's attempts to so far quite
Speaker 1: successful attempts to stop Russia from taking over their homes. Um.
Speaker 1: But one of the things that's happened alongside this is
Speaker 1: a kind of lionization of a specific kind of Turkish drone,
Speaker 1: the bractar Um, which was particularly effective in the opening
Speaker 1: stages of the war, and military technology military equipment walks
Speaker 1: can argue as to whether that was due to Russian
Speaker 1: kind of tactical failures and operational failures, or whether it
Speaker 1: was due to new realities about how drones function. But
Speaker 1: one of the things that was ignored in all of
Speaker 1: this kind of fetishization of this drone and people raising
Speaker 1: money to buy more of them, is that the drones
Speaker 1: were really combat tested for the first time, massacring Armenians. UM. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's I try not to get too mad when
Speaker 1: I see stuff like that, because I understand whether Ukrainians
Speaker 1: are happy, of course, and like, yeah, I should point
Speaker 1: out unequivvalently I support Ukraine's fight for independence, just like
Speaker 1: I wish people um supported ours UM and and the war.
Speaker 1: The wars effectively have the same kind of propaganda angle. UM. Obviously,
Speaker 1: before Russia invaded Ukraine, they're talking about you know, DENOZI
Speaker 1: vacation or demilitarization, when when you look at their speeches
Speaker 1: and the rhetoric, it's that they believe that Ukraine does
Speaker 1: not have the right to exist and that Ukrainians are
Speaker 1: either are Russian or they also should not exist. And
Speaker 1: that's effectively what we're looking at. Two. UM. This is
Speaker 1: why Armenians constantly compare what is happening now to nineteen
Speaker 1: UM asba Jean continuously says they want art Sah or
Speaker 1: the Nogana Karabak, they they want it back, but that's
Speaker 1: not what they're attacking right now. UM. If you look
Speaker 1: at the rhetoric of Aliev and his government going all
Speaker 1: the way back to the nineties when his dad was
Speaker 1: in charge, in a few other people, UM, their ideology
Speaker 1: is that Armenia is not a real state. They have
Speaker 1: claims over our capital yur Ivan. They have they have
Speaker 1: claims over the south where they're invading right now, and
Speaker 1: everywhere those soldiers go they wipe out the local poppy
Speaker 1: relation of Armenians. There are no Armenian survivors and Hadrud
Speaker 1: or Shushi or any of these other places they took,
Speaker 1: they do not exist. And ever since then they've been
Speaker 1: purposely going through and destroying any evidence that Armenians ever
Speaker 1: lived there, which is ridiculous. Armenians have been living in
Speaker 1: these places since before Rome was fucking established. Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: I mean, and this is obviously we're talking about the
Speaker 1: Armenian genocide, which occurred during kind of the concurrent to
Speaker 1: the kind of late stages of World War One. UM,
Speaker 1: and uh was unrecognized by the United States until what
Speaker 1: was that now two years ago Joe's yeah something, finally
Speaker 1: became the first president, first US president, to recognize it.
Speaker 1: And and this is because we we've mentioned Turkey a
Speaker 1: couple of times that there's a couple of reasons for this,
Speaker 1: but most of them boiled down to not wanting to
Speaker 1: piss up, piss off the Turkish government. Um. The Turkish
Speaker 1: government has strong attitude dudes that essentially everybody in Anatolia
Speaker 1: is Turkish and always yes, there were no Greeks, there
Speaker 1: were no Kurds, there were no Army. And this has
Speaker 1: led to, I mean, it's led to ethnic cleansings and
Speaker 1: genocides against the Armenians and against the Kurds. One of
Speaker 1: the things that was being done in Rojava, UM that
Speaker 1: I found so compelling was was an attempt to educate
Speaker 1: an attempted by the Kurds there to educate people who
Speaker 1: were joining the YPG about Kurdish complicity in the genocide
Speaker 1: against Arminia because they recognize themselves as victims of the
Speaker 1: same thing. You know, starting I think you know all
Speaker 1: of the it's hard to say starting in right, because
Speaker 1: we're trying to talk about concurrent conference. They all go back.
Speaker 1: Everything's going back quite a while. You mentioned Ali of
Speaker 1: a little bit ago, and I don't want to talk
Speaker 1: about him. Um, we're talking about il Ham Aliev, who's
Speaker 1: the current president of Azerbaijan, the fourth UH and of
Speaker 1: course the the son of the former leader, which is
Speaker 1: always a recipe for a good functional des Also his
Speaker 1: wife is vice president. Yeah, and his wife advice, which
Speaker 1: is nice. It's just like it's just like house of cars. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's the Kevin spacey. Um. His his attitude and rhetoric
Speaker 1: towards Armenian in general is eliminationists at best. Um, like
Speaker 1: he's I mean, the country's put out stamps that show
Speaker 1: Armenia being fumigated like dirt went during the height of
Speaker 1: the pandemic, which like as a genocide scholar. You know, generally,
Speaker 1: when I see a picture of a place being gassed,
Speaker 1: I get suspicious. Um Uh, they've taught, they've talked about
Speaker 1: how it was a good thing that in the nineties
Speaker 1: Armenians were driven from Baku and the Bukoprograms and a
Speaker 1: few other places. Um, I mean weren't there like literally
Speaker 1: like some of those trophies at arms shows and stuff,
Speaker 1: like pieces of captured equipment with blood on it and stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and they also had, um honestly one of the weirdest,
Speaker 1: Like it's incredibly offensive and racist, h the these um
Speaker 1: caricatures of our of Armenian soldiers who like, at the
Speaker 1: same time they're like racist towards Armenians but also vaguely
Speaker 1: anti Semitic, Like they looked like a character of a
Speaker 1: Jewish person to come out of their sturmer um with
Speaker 1: like you know, and I understand how stereotypically people think
Speaker 1: Armenians look in like these racist art where we have
Speaker 1: you know, big hooked noses and big eyebrows and things
Speaker 1: like that, which admittedly I know I meet both of
Speaker 1: those personally, but that's besides the point of Like if
Speaker 1: you look at the pictures and they were taken down
Speaker 1: because like even like Israel was like, oh that's a
Speaker 1: bit much, and like they help that happen. Um. But
Speaker 1: like also to talk you can't talk about as by
Speaker 1: genre without talking about Turkey because they have this ideology
Speaker 1: that's like two people, one state. They they do believe
Speaker 1: in like Pan Turranism, especially urd iwan Um. I mean
Speaker 1: he's been ever ever since, he's gone like full fascist.
Speaker 1: That's something he's been hammering the drum on and like
Speaker 1: this is an extension of that. He's effectively a neo Ottomanist.
Speaker 1: He wants to reunite the empire, which is fucking insane
Speaker 1: but also has real life things, you know, but also
Speaker 1: to bring us, you know, to the conflict that Americans
Speaker 1: are more focusing on. As we've talked about before, this
Speaker 1: is another similarity between what Russia is doing in Ukraine
Speaker 1: and what is Ervajan and Turkey are doing in Armenia.
Speaker 1: They're both these kind of um redemptionist dreams of people
Speaker 1: who want to bring back some sort of lost imperial
Speaker 1: splendor right and are are utilizing kind of the tactics
Speaker 1: that the technics of genocide in order to try to
Speaker 1: make that happen. Yeah. I think for Turkey it's a
Speaker 1: lot of this lost splendor, especially as their economy ships
Speaker 1: itself from mismanagement, and I think for Azerbaijan it's the
Speaker 1: other way around. In the nineties, when we fought the
Speaker 1: first car Bah or Armenia UM, I mean, it wasn't
Speaker 1: from being militaries military, militarily superior, having more money. It
Speaker 1: had to do with two largely unorganized forces in the
Speaker 1: fallout of the Soviet Union, and Armenia end up winning. UM.
Speaker 1: And ever since then, that loss has been something of
Speaker 1: like national It's like it's kind of like the national
Speaker 1: mythos of Azebaijan, because before then Azebaijan is a national
Speaker 1: identity simply didn't exist. It's relatively new UM. And that
Speaker 1: loss in that war became the defining moment. That's where UM,
Speaker 1: the lost Armenia was internalized and like it became school
Speaker 1: curriculum that Armenians were the were at fault for everything.
Speaker 1: We're sub human. We've been compared to cockroaches. Like for instance,
Speaker 1: if you have, say my last name, you cannot legally
Speaker 1: enter the country of Azebaijan, like you cannot enter that
Speaker 1: country with an Armenian last name, it's racism, and fascism
Speaker 1: is state doctrine there. So when you know their oil
Speaker 1: production kicked back up from after the war damages and
Speaker 1: after the fallout of the Soviet Union, on top of
Speaker 1: military reforms that have been lasting for thirty years, they're
Speaker 1: the ones on the up swing now, not Turkey in
Speaker 1: my opinion, and it also helps their fighting someone like Armenia,
Speaker 1: which no Armenians that we have military history and everything,
Speaker 1: but we have no fucking money, we have no natural resources,
Speaker 1: we have no allies, we have no one's gonna air
Speaker 1: drop palettes of fucking high Mars and Yerevan like, nobody's
Speaker 1: coming to help us. We have a k S that
Speaker 1: fought in the First War. We have BMP ones that
Speaker 1: have probably seen more combat than most people who are
Speaker 1: still alive. That's an armored personnel carrier. Essentially, we we
Speaker 1: have nothing. Um, I'm not going to speak about the
Speaker 1: cape bills of the Armenian military, but like you can
Speaker 1: imagine what a small landlocked country with a small population
Speaker 1: not a lot of money, can field. It's not a lot. Um, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not a lot. And this kind of gets us
Speaker 1: to another topic that has to be broached with his
Speaker 1: which is kind of talking about the relationship of rush
Speaker 1: you to all this because one of the things that's
Speaker 1: very frustrating about this conflict is that Americans particularly tend
Speaker 1: to want things very simply. So you hear you've got
Speaker 1: a Russian client state, which is how it's not what
Speaker 1: Armenia is. I'm not saying that, Joe, obviously, but is
Speaker 1: how it's easy to course, especially like kind of in
Speaker 1: the boil out, sort of break things out as it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: you've got this state backed by Russia and then you've
Speaker 1: got this other state fighting that that's backed by Turkey. Well,
Speaker 1: Turkey's part of NATO, they're part of, you know, the
Speaker 1: fight against Russia, so they must be the good guys.
Speaker 1: And none of that's accurate. But I think it's I
Speaker 1: think it's important to explain why. So, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: it's really hard to explain Armenia and Russia's relationship other
Speaker 1: than imperialism. Um. Obviously, Armenia has been conquered by countless
Speaker 1: countries throughout our fucking long history, but the most recent
Speaker 1: one being the Soviet Union, which we did not join willingly. Um.
Speaker 1: And then after the fall of the Soviet Union and
Speaker 1: the Russian Federation. Um, we're solidly within Russia's fear of
Speaker 1: influences by no active choice of ours. We're members of
Speaker 1: the cts O, we're members of the Eurasian Economic Union,
Speaker 1: and neither of those were by choice. We were strong
Speaker 1: armed into it because there's no there's nothing else, there's
Speaker 1: no other option. UM. And as far as it goes,
Speaker 1: is is like the brotherly relationship or this client state.
Speaker 1: It would be exactly like someone blaming Ukraine for what
Speaker 1: happened in Maidan, or blaming Ukraine for what happened in
Speaker 1: or what happened now because they're trying to get away
Speaker 1: from that. I mean, we can't. We don't have the
Speaker 1: resources to do it. Just just for an example of
Speaker 1: how Armenia plays like tight ropes. This ship. Never once
Speaker 1: if we voted in favor of Russia during this war.
Speaker 1: We like they're like our representatives to the U n
Speaker 1: our our Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Our prime minister is
Speaker 1: solidly neutral because that's the best he can do. UM. Right,
Speaker 1: you know, he's either voted against UH, he's voted h
Speaker 1: he's abstained. He's never voted for to support Usha during
Speaker 1: this ward all um. Now, obviously, back in there was
Speaker 1: a different Armenia. UM. We had a pro EU movement
Speaker 1: here that was quite strong. This is before I lived here,
Speaker 1: of course, UM that voted to declare our intentions to
Speaker 1: want to join the EU. I believe this is under
Speaker 1: President Sergisan Um. And it passed overwhelmingly in the popular vote,
Speaker 1: because unlike the people invading us, we are a free
Speaker 1: and fair democracy with the freedom of speech and expression
Speaker 1: and everything else that people like to claim they want
Speaker 1: to defend, but they don't UM. And after a five
Speaker 1: minute meeting with Putin, it was gone. There's no more referendum,
Speaker 1: and we decided not to join the EU anymore. But
Speaker 1: we I mean the president. After that we had our
Speaker 1: Velvet Revolution which got rid of him um and distance
Speaker 1: ourselves from Russia as much as we realistically could. So
Speaker 1: I believe, for instance, Armenia kind of slight least supported
Speaker 1: Russia when it came to annexing Crimea. And now you
Speaker 1: can kind of see why the president was a fucking stooge.
Speaker 1: That's not the case anymore. We now have a parliamentary
Speaker 1: system and as much as I am not the biggest
Speaker 1: fan of Prime minister or Bashionon, He's not that guy.
Speaker 1: That's not like and Armenia is a different world. Um.
Speaker 1: And I know, like like you said, people really like
Speaker 1: to simplify these things. They want this to be a
Speaker 1: team sport. They want this to be NATO versus Russia,
Speaker 1: and you know, people like Belarus or whoever else. But
Speaker 1: there's a there's a pretty big fucking difference here. We
Speaker 1: have not actively supported this war. There has been anti
Speaker 1: war protests outside my fucking windows since the war has started.
Speaker 1: Ukrainians have flooded here by the thousands and they have
Speaker 1: met nothing but Armenians who have welcomed them with open arms.
Speaker 1: Russians have come too, and we're not the biggest fans
Speaker 1: of them. But what can you do about it? Um?
Speaker 1: You know, like, yeah, we're we're solidly neutral in this.
Speaker 1: And it's one of the things that fucking and I
Speaker 1: mean granted neutral government wise, people wise. Absolutely, we're not neutral. Um.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that pisces me off the
Speaker 1: most is that people can see the realities of the
Speaker 1: war in Ukraine where they can see right through Russian
Speaker 1: propaganda when it's like demilitarization, denoification, whatever, and they can
Speaker 1: see on its face that's complete and utter bullshit. But
Speaker 1: like when because you know, Ukraine is fighting for their sovereignty,
Speaker 1: their independence and the right to exist that we all
Speaker 1: have um, and when it comes to us, we don't
Speaker 1: get that, like, oh, well, we're calling for both sides
Speaker 1: a de escalate and maybe our Menia shouldn't have started this.
Speaker 1: We haven't done anything. It was fucking midnight last night
Speaker 1: and the South started being bombed. What the fund is
Speaker 1: there to be de escalated. You can't de escalate self defense,
Speaker 1: So you have what is a really uncomfortable situation. From that,
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't like talking about the reality
Speaker 1: of it because essentially, when you have a country like
Speaker 1: Azerbaijan that is insisting on repeatedly violating the territory of
Speaker 1: its neighbor um and that has proven not just a
Speaker 1: willingness but an eagerness to engage and engage in acts
Speaker 1: of ethnic cleansing and genocide, you have two options for
Speaker 1: dealing with that other than let them do it right.
Speaker 1: Option one is send in peacekeepers to stop the aggression.
Speaker 1: Now Russia has troops that were called peacekeepers in the area. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, there's you could debate prior to the invasion
Speaker 1: of Ukraine how good they were at that job. Um,
Speaker 1: but they certainly are not capable of doing it now. Um.
Speaker 1: So then the question is, Okay, who else? Who? What?
Speaker 1: Who else is peacekeepers are gonna come in? Right? And
Speaker 1: if that's not a realistic solution, and you don't want
Speaker 1: to let Azerbaijan just do a genocide, then what you
Speaker 1: do issue give them weapons Armenia weapons, not as people
Speaker 1: already doing that part unfortunately the US. And yeah, indeed, um,
Speaker 1: And again there's this we're all kind of in terms
Speaker 1: of like the discourse around this in the United States,
Speaker 1: living in the shadow of the War on Terror, in
Speaker 1: which an irresponsible quantity of weapons were handed out to
Speaker 1: an irresponsible variety of groups. Um, and many of them
Speaker 1: went to bad ends in bad places. Um. The reality
Speaker 1: is that you know, we're sitting on a fucking stockpile
Speaker 1: of weapons here in the United States as tall as
Speaker 1: the sky and handing over a tiny percent of that.
Speaker 1: When people talk about like that we're giving this much
Speaker 1: aid Ukraine, We're not spending that much cash straight on
Speaker 1: a d Ukraine. We're picking up ship we have in mothballs,
Speaker 1: and well, we're handing it to them because we've spent
Speaker 1: all of our treasure on on a pile of guns
Speaker 1: larger than you can conceive of in terms of its
Speaker 1: actual size and weight. UM. And I don't know, like
Speaker 1: when when I think about what is to be fucking
Speaker 1: done here realistically, UM, I would like for Ourmnia to
Speaker 1: have access to javelins and send some stingers. Even One
Speaker 1: of the things that pisses me off is like, like
Speaker 1: you said, there's two options here, you do nothing and
Speaker 1: you're complicit in a genocide. That's what this hits like.
Speaker 1: It's it's like being silent and you know, um and
Speaker 1: in nineteen it's being silent. In nineteen fifteen, it's being
Speaker 1: silent Rwanda. We were silent during most of those things,
Speaker 1: and we saw how they all were. Like, there's only
Speaker 1: one way this fucking ends if we don't get guns,
Speaker 1: and that's with a lot of dead Armenians. That that
Speaker 1: that by supporting Ajerbaijan or sitting out, that is what
Speaker 1: you explicitly support is thousands and thousands of dead civilians.
Speaker 1: Like that's the only way this ends. And it is
Speaker 1: again and I hate keep that we keep going back
Speaker 1: to Ukraine but it's relevant because it's the the the
Speaker 1: it's the conflict that people are actually focusing on the
Speaker 1: people who are counter on on anti side, providing weapons
Speaker 1: to the Ukrainian military and make claims about corruption, which
Speaker 1: they could also make about the Armenian government, um, and
Speaker 1: claims about you know, arms trafficking and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: But so far, and Ukraine, by the way, is a
Speaker 1: country with a deeper history of corruption, significantly in the
Speaker 1: Armenian government even um, we haven't seen government is less
Speaker 1: corrupt than Ukraine's. Yeah, um, you haven't seen a ton
Speaker 1: of that happening. What you have seen is the weapons
Speaker 1: that have been handed to them, blowing up invaders, tanks
Speaker 1: and aircraft. Um. And the sheer quantity that has been
Speaker 1: destroyed is evidence that that weaponry has been used pretty responsibly.
Speaker 1: And when you were talking about a group of people
Speaker 1: facing annihilation, I'm simply not worried that they're going to
Speaker 1: sell their stingers to fucking Isis or wherever that who
Speaker 1: are going to have turkey in one side the Georgia.
Speaker 1: That's actually fine, Like you know, and that's why I
Speaker 1: think people are fucking gutless. Um, you saw this happen
Speaker 1: in February, before they're in January, before the war in
Speaker 1: Ukraine started, when people like, oh, weapons are only gonna
Speaker 1: make it worse. No, they're fucking not. You know what's
Speaker 1: worse than than an armed population defending itself is an
Speaker 1: unarmed one being murdered anyway. And we in case nobody
Speaker 1: has paid attention, because they probably didn't, you can go
Speaker 1: back and look at the video footage of what happens
Speaker 1: to unarmed Armenians, and it's the same fucking ship Isis
Speaker 1: did to yuzd S. It's the same fucking ship they
Speaker 1: did occurreds, and it's the same fucking ship that will
Speaker 1: happen again if we do not get what we need
Speaker 1: to defend ourselves. And I don't give a funk if
Speaker 1: you don't like Russia. I don't fucking like Russia either.
Speaker 1: But it's the reality that we live in. If you're
Speaker 1: if you're fucking intelligent enough to realize the diplomacy and
Speaker 1: geopolitics of how Ukraine ended up in the war that
Speaker 1: they're in now, you should understand why we are in
Speaker 1: the situation that we are into. You cannot realistically believe
Speaker 1: we deserve what is happening unless you also believe Ukraine
Speaker 1: deserves what's happening to them. It's impossible. I don't know.
Speaker 1: This is obviously how could this not be like emotional
Speaker 1: and it is just feeling like I can't and it
Speaker 1: must be so much worse. Obviously you just being there,
Speaker 1: but like this, this feeling of a fucking train coming
Speaker 1: at you, and people aren't gonna do ship because there's
Speaker 1: this fucking problem with optic and it's more complicated when
Speaker 1: we talk about I'm talking about we're gonna talk about optics.
Speaker 1: I guess we're talking about discourse. When it comes about
Speaker 1: like why politically the United States is unlikely to do
Speaker 1: anything like what we suggested, It's more complicated than that,
Speaker 1: and a decent amount of it comes down to the
Speaker 1: fact that we have what is it, thirteen nuclear weapons
Speaker 1: stationed in Turkey right now, land stolen from Armenians from
Speaker 1: the genocide. Great stuff America we really knock out of
Speaker 1: the park. What is it that people can do to
Speaker 1: help outside of trying to become informed about the conflict,
Speaker 1: which I think we can talk about some sources at
Speaker 1: the end of this. Are there places, you know, Red
Speaker 1: Cross style things that people can donate to to help
Speaker 1: to the extent that that's kind of a thing is helpful. Yeah, Um,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, generally crowdfunding for weapons systems is
Speaker 1: illegal unless you're Ukraine nowadays, so I'm thinking more about medical. Um.
Speaker 1: The Armenian Red Cross is always a good option. They
Speaker 1: helped a lot in they still help now, we still
Speaker 1: have a ton of internally displaced people. Um. There's also
Speaker 1: the hind drum In Fund, which directly funds wounded servicemen
Speaker 1: because we really don't have a v A exactly here. Um.
Speaker 1: There's quite a few other ones, but the the Armenian
Speaker 1: Red Crosses of course the most reliable and easy to
Speaker 1: donate if you're in the West. For sure. You don't
Speaker 1: have to navigate any confusing Armenian language websites because it's
Speaker 1: it's hard and isn't great with the internet, so like
Speaker 1: most of them don't have translations. Um. But you know
Speaker 1: it's yeah, I understand, I'm a little bit more emotional
Speaker 1: than most people. Probably hear me on podcasts, but like, um,
Speaker 1: I'm mad, I'm mad, I'm fucking frustrated. Um. I don't
Speaker 1: know how much longer people can let this kind of
Speaker 1: thing happen. Um. I hope the e use gas this
Speaker 1: winter is fucking worth it, because this is what you've got.
Speaker 1: This is what that deal got us. So I hope
Speaker 1: you're nice and warm in the fucking winter because we
Speaker 1: probably won't have power or we'll have more dead or whatever.
Speaker 1: But real glad you pivoted away from Russian gas and
Speaker 1: sign a deal. Fucking ashby Jean, you spineless fox. And
Speaker 1: it's a I mean, it goes the spinelessness is deeper
Speaker 1: than that, right, because the reason why the fucking gas
Speaker 1: crunch that led to that deal happened in the first
Speaker 1: place was among a number of things, years of seeding
Speaker 1: to Russian government aggression in places like Georgia, in places
Speaker 1: like Ukraine. And you've got that, you know, here you
Speaker 1: have the invasion by a Zerbaijan almost like two years
Speaker 1: ago now and then and and no pushback right when
Speaker 1: you this is this is the thing is And this
Speaker 1: is not a popular kind of thing to go to
Speaker 1: talk about on the left, but but it's true. If
Speaker 1: you want to pay attention to why why that whole
Speaker 1: World War two situation got so goddamn bad, A big
Speaker 1: part of it is they're not being any kind of
Speaker 1: effective rules based international order to stop bigger countries or
Speaker 1: at least more aggressive ones, from fucking with their neighbors.
Speaker 1: And one of the things we were supposed to have
Speaker 1: learned from that war is that you don't let people
Speaker 1: do that. It's bad, yea that when a mother shows up, Yeah,
Speaker 1: like it shouldn't be that hard. Tis I don't care
Speaker 1: what your politics is. I mean, everybody knows that we're
Speaker 1: both very left wing. But when someone comes continuously fox
Speaker 1: with you, the only way to make them stop is
Speaker 1: by hitting them in the goddamn face until they realize
Speaker 1: it's not a good idea like this, Like diplomacy doesn't
Speaker 1: work when one side only wants you dead. You can't
Speaker 1: debate my right to live, or my neighbor's right to live,
Speaker 1: or these kids right to live wherever they're fucking schools
Speaker 1: bombed right now, there's no debate to be had. You
Speaker 1: have to hit them until they fucking stop. There's like,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, there's not gonna be any de escalation of
Speaker 1: fucking genocide. Like that's not how this works. People tend
Speaker 1: to get this in the immediate sense when you're talking about,
Speaker 1: you know, some fucking bigot in front of you, everybody,
Speaker 1: everybody loves, you know, cheering on a video of some guy,
Speaker 1: you know, dropping a racial slur and getting knocked to
Speaker 1: the ground. Obviously those are a lot of um. But
Speaker 1: the the the moral is that if you let assholes.
Speaker 1: The actual moral of like why it's important to punch
Speaker 1: Nazis in the face when they're doing Nazi ship is
Speaker 1: that if you just let them do Nazi ship and
Speaker 1: you try to like appease them and calm them down,
Speaker 1: you'll often calm them down here and there, and they're like,
Speaker 1: back off, but they'll have gotten a little bit more,
Speaker 1: They'll have gotten a little bit of what they want,
Speaker 1: they'll have gotten a little bit further, and they just
Speaker 1: keep making ship worse until somebody actually does fucking drop them.
Speaker 1: And it's the same with you know. And again I
Speaker 1: I we just talked about with the great lesson of
Speaker 1: World War two should have been and the thing that
Speaker 1: actually happens the generation that took power in the United
Speaker 1: States and in a lot of other Western countries after that,
Speaker 1: not exclusively the West, but I think we're talking about
Speaker 1: our our our people here. Um immediately went and fucked
Speaker 1: around and carried out acts of aggression all over the world. Um,
Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean the basic lesson is bad. The
Speaker 1: lesson is don't let pete. We should not have been
Speaker 1: allowed to do that, um, but we shouldn't like that
Speaker 1: should not be a thing that the world accepts, Like
Speaker 1: the you can't just sit back and be like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: that country's gonna go do a genocide now, but it's
Speaker 1: far away, so there's nothing to be done other than
Speaker 1: continue to buy the oil of the people doing the
Speaker 1: genocide and thereby fund the genocide, right like it's it's
Speaker 1: fucking unconscionable, man like, and even if you want to
Speaker 1: look at this as like the West also funcked around
Speaker 1: during the coldar which like, yeah, you know what, everybody
Speaker 1: did you stop them? They didn't funk around so much
Speaker 1: in Southeast Asia after the US got punched in the
Speaker 1: fucking face in Vietnam, did that? That's right? Yeah, well
Speaker 1: it was a lot less. It shouldn't be this fucking complicated.
Speaker 1: I don't I don't care what political ideology you subscribe to,
Speaker 1: Like it's self defense, like it's collective defense, mutual self defense.
Speaker 1: When we need help, you give us fucking help. Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it shouldn't be that fucking hard. I mean to be
Speaker 1: fair for for some people who will never really matter
Speaker 1: because they don't see countries like Armenia or countries like
Speaker 1: Azerbaijan is having agency to do their own things and
Speaker 1: want their own things. Um. And if that is you,
Speaker 1: I hope to see your house on sn end one day. Um.
Speaker 1: But like you know that does there should be like
Speaker 1: that sounds like, um, like an old Russian curse, like me,
Speaker 1: your house beyond the sea, and I believe it's from
Speaker 1: the Balkans. Yeah, yeah, but I can imagine yes, a
Speaker 1: little old ladies saying that to you. We we have
Speaker 1: the right to freedom as much as anyone else. And um,
Speaker 1: not only that we've achieved it, Like Armenia is a
Speaker 1: is a moderately progressive place. I mean we're still working
Speaker 1: on some things. We have the freest democracy in the region. Um.
Speaker 1: We have great standard of living for most people. Um,
Speaker 1: and it was only getting better. This is a place
Speaker 1: as freer and fairer elections and virtually anyone else over here,
Speaker 1: to include Russia, to include fucking Ukraine, to include Turkey,
Speaker 1: to include all these places that people insists are worth defending.
Speaker 1: I'm just curious why we're not like, why are like,
Speaker 1: why are Armenians less than? What did we ever fucking
Speaker 1: do to deserve this? It's it's incredibly depressing, um. And
Speaker 1: maybe we're not the right shade of white. I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't fucking know anymore man Like it's it's it's
Speaker 1: really weird to me. Um. Even like internationally geopolitically, you know,
Speaker 1: the Secretary of State blinken urged both sides of de escalate,
Speaker 1: Suck my fucking dick. What are we de escalating? They're
Speaker 1: invading us? I would like to ask al Qaeda would
Speaker 1: really like to ask the city of New York to
Speaker 1: de escalate. When planes flew into the World Trade cent
Speaker 1: are like, get the funk out of here, Like, how
Speaker 1: do you de escalate this? They're bombing cities like it's
Speaker 1: it's maddening, um, and it's not gonna end. It's not
Speaker 1: gonna end until someone fucking ends it. We can't. We
Speaker 1: we just had a generationally destroying war two years ago
Speaker 1: that we have not recovered from. We have an entire
Speaker 1: society that's dealing with various different forms of PTSD. UM.
Speaker 1: We don't have the the institutions to take care of
Speaker 1: all of the victims from two years ago. Um, we
Speaker 1: didn't get any help that either, and we're not gonna
Speaker 1: get any help now. I uh yeah, you know. I
Speaker 1: think again, there's this, there's this tendency towards isolationism and
Speaker 1: the left brought on by the Iraq War. But none
Speaker 1: of this, if nothing is done, if there's no international
Speaker 1: response to this, and if these areas aren't aren't stopped
Speaker 1: by you know, in auto cathonic resistance, Um, then it
Speaker 1: won't stop with Armenia, because violence of this sort never does.
Speaker 1: There's a there's a book I'm interested in your thoughts
Speaker 1: on it, actually, Joe, but I found it quite eliminating
Speaker 1: a number of years ago, An Inconvenient gen Aside by
Speaker 1: Adam Hosschild, which is about the Armenian genocide and its
Speaker 1: influence on Hitler, making the point that even though Hitler
Speaker 1: never was anywhere close to Armenia, neither were any fucking
Speaker 1: German troops for that matter, particularly close Imperial German troops
Speaker 1: were Oh yeah, we're we're very much in charge of
Speaker 1: a lot of different death squads. It's it's a it's
Speaker 1: a weird story. Hitler's Hitler's gerofe of course I apologize,
Speaker 1: I meant, I meant THEE. But the point that host
Speaker 1: Child was making was that Hitler was not engaged in
Speaker 1: the Armenian genocide, but he paid attention to it and
Speaker 1: the fact that the young Turks got away with it,
Speaker 1: um and and got to take that let take land that,
Speaker 1: as you pointed out, is currently occupied by some US
Speaker 1: nuclear war heads. Um was was part of what emboldened
Speaker 1: him to do not just the Holocaust but everything he
Speaker 1: did in Europe. And there was a line specifically in
Speaker 1: reference the Holocaust from Hitler I but it was during
Speaker 1: this table talk that was like essentially he was saying, well,
Speaker 1: of course we'll get away with it. Nobody remembers Armenians anymore. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's literally on the wall. Yeah exactly. And that's the
Speaker 1: thing is like it goes back right, like everybody was saying,
Speaker 1: because I mean, I understand the politics behind our sock
Speaker 1: are messy for people who are not from this region,
Speaker 1: and I'm I don't have enough time to go into them.
Speaker 1: The majority of Armenian population that was given to Azerbaijan
Speaker 1: by the Soviet Union with absolutely no process, and they
Speaker 1: attempted to vote to join Armenia while we were still
Speaker 1: in the Soviet Union, which is well within the rights
Speaker 1: according to the Soviet Unions constitution if such rights functionally existed,
Speaker 1: which they did not. Um, And that's what started the
Speaker 1: first war, but in every war has been about that
Speaker 1: ever since, effectively, at least politically on its surface, because
Speaker 1: internationally is recognized as part of Azerbay Sean because they
Speaker 1: go off old Soviet maps for fucking reasons. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean we can talk exactly, um, but like you know,
Speaker 1: in people were saying that, like, oh, if this will
Speaker 1: all end if Armenia simply gives up art stock, which
Speaker 1: we don't claim art so nobody, I mean, some some
Speaker 1: people do. The government does not. Um, we don't recognize
Speaker 1: it as an independent country either, which they themselves have
Speaker 1: declared themselves. It's it's messy, I understand, but um, it's
Speaker 1: it's not within the Republic of Armenia to negotiate the
Speaker 1: non existence of the Republic of Artsach. That is their
Speaker 1: right to self determination, that is politically what the government believes.
Speaker 1: Now they were saying, well, now that these areas have
Speaker 1: been taken over by age by Jean, we can finally
Speaker 1: move towards peace. There's fucking peace talks. A week ago
Speaker 1: the Prime Minister pashion Yan met with Aliev. I believe
Speaker 1: in Belgium, and I'm not entirely sure they literally met
Speaker 1: a week ago, maybe it was two weeks ago, like
Speaker 1: it was very recent. But the thing is is every
Speaker 1: time this peace process starts again, this happens because it's
Speaker 1: not about Arsa, it's not about Naganokarla, it's not about
Speaker 1: any of these. It's it's about our right, our fundamental
Speaker 1: right to exist. They do not believe in it, like
Speaker 1: it's not just like it wasn't about um Jews being
Speaker 1: involved in business, so it wasn't about Jews marrying Germans.
Speaker 1: It was about their fundamental right to exist. Like it's
Speaker 1: it's all it is. It's the same can be said
Speaker 1: for Palestinians. This is this isn't about palest I mean
Speaker 1: thinking of which fucking Israelis are just just placing Armenians
Speaker 1: in Palestine as well, Like it's it's not about it's
Speaker 1: not about these these small little nibbles that they're taking.
Speaker 1: It's not about the freedom of movement. It's not about
Speaker 1: your right to date someone which came up recently they
Speaker 1: made some Israeli la against that you have to declare
Speaker 1: your romantic intentions before you go into the West Bank
Speaker 1: or whatever like. It's not about those things. Those are
Speaker 1: Maybe that'll make maybe that'll make it easier to get
Speaker 1: the the American leftists on this one. Right, No, no, guys,
Speaker 1: it's Israel is bad. The bad guys here. We can
Speaker 1: do genocide. Yea, Actually that's not entirely true. He probably would,
Speaker 1: but m the thing is that it's not about these
Speaker 1: small nibbles. It's not about your right to do X,
Speaker 1: or your right to do why. It's not about art
Speaker 1: socks right, the freedom it's it's it's they don't believe
Speaker 1: you should exist, and they will take and take and
Speaker 1: take and take until you're fucking powerless and they can
Speaker 1: wipe you out. That is their role. I mean, you
Speaker 1: can see that in Palestine, you can see that, in Arsa,
Speaker 1: you can see that increasingly in Armenia. You can see.
Speaker 1: That's what Russia's goal was in Ukraine, it was Russia's
Speaker 1: goal in Georgia. It's how imperialism fucking works. It doesn't
Speaker 1: have to have an American flag or British flag over it.
Speaker 1: For that to be what it's culled, it's genocidal imperialism.
Speaker 1: And like if if you're too dumb to fucking see that,
Speaker 1: I don't know what else to tell you, Like, I
Speaker 1: don't know how else these are. Do you need me
Speaker 1: to draw and fucking crayon? Yeah? And I think we're
Speaker 1: both getting angry here, primarily at groups of people who
Speaker 1: I don't believe are the primary listeners that will have
Speaker 1: on this. Not necessarily but but but I get it.
Speaker 1: Like no, it's it's this constant fucking thing you have
Speaker 1: whenever there's a war anywhere, and you are like, well,
Speaker 1: what is the solution, Well, the people who are the
Speaker 1: victims need to have access to weapons? Um. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: if you're and if you're saying, which I agree with,
Speaker 1: sending in US or whatever troops to ex country usually
Speaker 1: it doesn't work out, then what are what is the
Speaker 1: option give them fucking weapons? Yeah? And honestly, like what
Speaker 1: would make the situation worse if we had American soldiers here?
Speaker 1: Like yeah, I mean I just don't. I just don't
Speaker 1: think that's a thing that logistically the US military can do. Well. Um,
Speaker 1: but like yeah, like there's some situations where Yes, military
Speaker 1: assistance could make a situation worse. Bad things will happen.
Speaker 1: You cannot deploy large amounts of weapons or soldiers to
Speaker 1: a specific area without there being some kind of negative effects. However,
Speaker 1: you have to realistically weigh the good and the bad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the world military the Allies bombed Germany flat, but they
Speaker 1: stopped the fucking holocaust. Yeah, we blew up a fair
Speaker 1: amount of people in the nineties. We stopped a genocide,
Speaker 1: like we blew up the ship out of Isis, and
Speaker 1: there was also some civilian casualties, which fucking sucked quite
Speaker 1: a few. You stop the Aziti genocide with the assistance
Speaker 1: of the PKK and and the YPG and the y PG, like,
Speaker 1: you cannot unleash military power without the acceptance that innocent
Speaker 1: people are going to die. The way that you weigh
Speaker 1: that is more fucking people are going to die if
Speaker 1: you don't. That's that's I think the key of it,
Speaker 1: and probably the point to close on is that it's
Speaker 1: not a decision do we do we bring violence to
Speaker 1: this situation or not the situation. The question is how
Speaker 1: how lopsided will the violence be? Will the violence be
Speaker 1: one state armed by its allies massacring an under you know,
Speaker 1: equipped military and then civilians until there's no one left
Speaker 1: of the people who inhabited that area. Um or will
Speaker 1: those people have the equipment to defend themselves? Like that?
Speaker 1: That's the question. There's no, there's no the situation. The
Speaker 1: only way for the situation to not be violent is
Speaker 1: for Zerbaijan to not do what they're doing right now.
Speaker 1: Um And hey, if if some sort of fucking diplomatic
Speaker 1: pressure works, I will I will be unbelievably psyched to
Speaker 1: eat both of our words in this if the fucking
Speaker 1: blinken manages to I don't. I don't. Yeah, I have
Speaker 1: no idea, like how how you actually have an impact here,
Speaker 1: but that would be lovely. I just don't think it's likely. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's I mean, don't be wrong. There's a time for diplomacy,
Speaker 1: and that time ends when troops attempt across the border
Speaker 1: or they start cluster bombing our cities. Like there's there's
Speaker 1: a time for diplomacy and not that you can do
Speaker 1: two things at once. And and to be completely clear,
Speaker 1: I'm not calling for like the hundred and first to
Speaker 1: fucking land in Yovan or whatever, Like I don't want
Speaker 1: the American military to come here. We'll take care of ourselves,
Speaker 1: but we need the tools to do so. And the
Speaker 1: fact remains is like you can be vehemently against war.
Speaker 1: I know I am. I fought in them. They fucking suck.
Speaker 1: I do not want war to happen to anybody, But
Speaker 1: when they when it comes, talking is over, or at
Speaker 1: least it it hits the back burner. Like there's negotiations
Speaker 1: going on in Ukraine and Russia that we don't hear about.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, Ukraine knows they have to
Speaker 1: continue doing violence in the meantime, Like you can't. You
Speaker 1: can't just like whoa, guys, let's just hit the brakes
Speaker 1: and let's like have a fucking peace conference in Belgium
Speaker 1: or whatever. Like soon it is being bombed, glorious is
Speaker 1: being bought, like our Meenians are dying. Like there's no
Speaker 1: words that will fix that, but we'll fix it. Is
Speaker 1: fucking artillery systems, high mars, GPS, guided weapons, fucking body armor.
Speaker 1: We don't even have first aid kits, like there's there's
Speaker 1: there's things that we need that can happen in addition
Speaker 1: to political pressure, because political pressure is great. If we
Speaker 1: ever have it, but there needs to be something in
Speaker 1: the meantime. Like the director of Doctors Without Borders one
Speaker 1: time said, um, something that was incredibly controversial when he said,
Speaker 1: because he's a doctor and he runs, you know, a charity,
Speaker 1: he said, you can't stop at genocide of doctors. And
Speaker 1: he meant that you need to give people fucking weapons
Speaker 1: because you know there's like like we already said, and
Speaker 1: then I'll promise they'll stop talking. Um, there's two ways
Speaker 1: that this ends. We defend ourselves and we survive, or
Speaker 1: you sit by and you do nothing, and uh, there's
Speaker 1: thousands of more graves full of Armenians by the end
Speaker 1: of this. That's it. I mean, once upon a time
Speaker 1: the world said never again, and that ship has had
Speaker 1: a big fucking asterix next to it ever since. And
Speaker 1: people need to prove themselves. You need to fucking prove
Speaker 1: the words actually mean things. If you want to defend
Speaker 1: democracies and ship like you do in Ukraine. I have
Speaker 1: a fucking democracy for you to defend, and we need weapons. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that's as good a note as I need
Speaker 1: to end on. Jok a sabian Um host of Lions
Speaker 1: led by Donkeys, author of The Hooligans of Kandahar. You've
Speaker 1: got other bunch of other books that have come out now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I have the Victory of Death series out if you
Speaker 1: enjoy military sci fi. Uh, and I have another one
Speaker 1: coming out in October called The Frontier Corps. You can
Speaker 1: preorder it now. Um. If you look on my Twitter, um,
Speaker 1: you can find a link to preorder it. It's free
Speaker 1: if you have UM Kindle unlimited, so you know if
Speaker 1: for the book, um so yeah. Also if you don't
Speaker 1: feel like giving me money, that's that's great to donate
Speaker 1: to the Armenian Red Cross. They need more than I do. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: all right, everybody, that's the episode. Um. I It could
Speaker 1: Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media or
Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website cool
Speaker 1: zone media dot com, or check us out on the
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here,
Speaker 1: updated monthly at cool Zone Media dot com slash sources.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.