1 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to it could happen here. This is Robert Evans, 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: and this is a podcast about things calling apart. Uh. 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: And today we definitely have a thing's well, I don't know, 4 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: hopefully not falling apart, but certainly getting fucked up episode 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: for you. UM. This is going to be been a 6 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,959 Speaker 1: part of the world that probably fairly few Americans spend 7 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: much time thinking about. UM. It's certainly a conflict that's 8 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: kind of been lost in everything that's happening in Ukraine 9 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: right now. UM. But Armenia and Azerbaijan, their neighbor have 10 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 1: been at a state of more or less regular war 11 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: since UM, since longer than that. But this kind of 12 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 1: latest wave of it started in UM. It was over 13 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: a breakaway real while what's often referred to as a 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: breakaway region that both countries claimed and that stayed kind 15 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: of independent for a very long time until invasion by 16 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: the Azeris in this air which is majority Armenian UM. 17 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: And it was kind of a military disaster for the 18 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: Armenian side. The war went very badly, a lot of 19 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: troops were killed, a lot of territory was taken, and 20 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,279 Speaker 1: ever since the Azeri military has been carrying out border 21 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: strikes in and around areas that are kind of near 22 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: their shared border with Armenia. UM. Over the last ten hours, 23 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: as I record this, and and I'm talking to you 24 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: all on Monday, UHT September, over the last about ten hours, UM, 25 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: the Azeri military has launched a fairly unprecedented set of 26 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: strikes within Armenian territory. UM. So not just kind of 27 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: hitting border areas, and not just hitting military targets, but 28 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: hitting cities, hitting civilian areas, trying to move troops across 29 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: the border. There's video evidence of this. UM. To talk 30 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: about what's happening, what's been happening in the past, over 31 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: the last couple of years, and what's happening now. UM, 32 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: I'd like to welcome on Joe Kasabian. Joe you will 33 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: know from his podcast Lions Led by Donkeys, from his 34 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: book The Hooligans of Kandahar, and a number of other 35 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: books that I think we'll talk about a little bit 36 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: at the end here from his appearances on the Behind 37 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: the Bastard. Joe, you are an American citizen, but you're 38 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: also Armenian and you're currently in our media. Yeah. UM, 39 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: I moved here a couple of months ago permanently, Um, 40 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,239 Speaker 1: citizenship is we kind of have like our own repatriation laws. 41 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: But I'm still waiting on that. UM. And so to 42 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: to go off a couple of things that you said, 43 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: we've been at a state of war effectively since the 44 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: nineties when we first gained independence from the Soviet Union. UM. 45 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: Without going into the incredibly complicated history of Nagano Karabach 46 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: or Artsach Um Artsak still exists. They did not take 47 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: all of it in UM. But Tony Tony was a 48 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: military disaster for Armenia unequivably, so we lost over four 49 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:58,799 Speaker 1: thousand people. UM. Huge swaths of territory were uh. Their 50 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: population became the victim of a regional genocide. UM. There 51 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: are no Armenians that have been confirmed to still be 52 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: alive within that territory. UM. There's endless videos of a 53 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: ZI troops beheading old men and women and and destroying 54 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: homes and cemeteries and churches. UM. And ever since UH 55 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 1: the war ended in a month has not gone by 56 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: where UM either art Saw or Armenia itself has not 57 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: been attacked. We've probably lost over a hundred soldiers since then. UM. 58 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: These are kids, their conscripts. We have um military mandatory 59 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: service here. Um. So these are eighteen nineteen year old 60 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: kids doing their two years of service. On top of 61 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: the civilians that are currently being bombed. We we don't 62 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: know how many people are dead at the moment um. 63 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: And it's um, it's truly aggravating. I mean, Armenians live 64 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: with this all the time. It's a sword hanging over 65 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: our heads. When this is going to happen. Um happened 66 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: with unpress attended, international support and not only support, but 67 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: willing willingly ignoring it. Um. I mean NATO powers helped 68 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: as or by Jean dulas Um, Turkey and Israel Israel. 69 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: Israeli drone designers literally test flew as suicide drone into 70 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: Armenian soldiers to sell it. Um. I mean, it's it's 71 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: it's honestly kind of I I don't know what what 72 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 1: to say about it other than that's it should be 73 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: another thing that the world should be united against and 74 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: they never will. No. I mean, it's it's so frustrating. 75 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: One of the things that I have had a lot 76 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: of issue with because obviously I, as as you are, 77 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 1: I'm supportive of Ukrainian people's attempts to so far quite 78 00:04:54,160 --> 00:05:00,359 Speaker 1: successful attempts to stop Russia from taking over their homes. Um. 79 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: But one of the things that's happened alongside this is 80 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 1: a kind of lionization of a specific kind of Turkish drone, 81 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 1: the bractar Um, which was particularly effective in the opening 82 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: stages of the war, and military technology military equipment walks 83 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: can argue as to whether that was due to Russian 84 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: kind of tactical failures and operational failures, or whether it 85 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: was due to new realities about how drones function. But 86 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: one of the things that was ignored in all of 87 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: this kind of fetishization of this drone and people raising 88 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: money to buy more of them, is that the drones 89 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: were really combat tested for the first time, massacring Armenians. UM. Yeah, 90 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: and it's I try not to get too mad when 91 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,799 Speaker 1: I see stuff like that, because I understand whether Ukrainians 92 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: are happy, of course, and like, yeah, I should point 93 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: out unequivvalently I support Ukraine's fight for independence, just like 94 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: I wish people um supported ours UM and and the war. 95 00:05:54,520 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: The wars effectively have the same kind of propaganda angle. UM. Obviously, 96 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: before Russia invaded Ukraine, they're talking about you know, DENOZI 97 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: vacation or demilitarization, when when you look at their speeches 98 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 1: and the rhetoric, it's that they believe that Ukraine does 99 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: not have the right to exist and that Ukrainians are 100 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: either are Russian or they also should not exist. And 101 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: that's effectively what we're looking at. Two. UM. This is 102 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 1: why Armenians constantly compare what is happening now to nineteen 103 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 1: UM asba Jean continuously says they want art Sah or 104 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: the Nogana Karabak, they they want it back, but that's 105 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: not what they're attacking right now. UM. If you look 106 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: at the rhetoric of Aliev and his government going all 107 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: the way back to the nineties when his dad was 108 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: in charge, in a few other people, UM, their ideology 109 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: is that Armenia is not a real state. They have 110 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: claims over our capital yur Ivan. They have they have 111 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: claims over the south where they're invading right now, and 112 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: everywhere those soldiers go they wipe out the local poppy 113 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: relation of Armenians. There are no Armenian survivors and Hadrud 114 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: or Shushi or any of these other places they took, 115 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: they do not exist. And ever since then they've been 116 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: purposely going through and destroying any evidence that Armenians ever 117 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: lived there, which is ridiculous. Armenians have been living in 118 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: these places since before Rome was fucking established. Yeah, um, 119 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: I mean, and this is obviously we're talking about the 120 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: Armenian genocide, which occurred during kind of the concurrent to 121 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: the kind of late stages of World War One. UM, 122 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: and uh was unrecognized by the United States until what 123 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: was that now two years ago Joe's yeah something, finally 124 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: became the first president, first US president, to recognize it. 125 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: And and this is because we we've mentioned Turkey a 126 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: couple of times that there's a couple of reasons for this, 127 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: but most of them boiled down to not wanting to 128 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: piss up, piss off the Turkish government. Um. The Turkish 129 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: government has strong attitude dudes that essentially everybody in Anatolia 130 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: is Turkish and always yes, there were no Greeks, there 131 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: were no Kurds, there were no Army. And this has 132 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: led to, I mean, it's led to ethnic cleansings and 133 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: genocides against the Armenians and against the Kurds. One of 134 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: the things that was being done in Rojava, UM that 135 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: I found so compelling was was an attempt to educate 136 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: an attempted by the Kurds there to educate people who 137 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: were joining the YPG about Kurdish complicity in the genocide 138 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: against Arminia because they recognize themselves as victims of the 139 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: same thing. You know, starting I think you know all 140 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: of the it's hard to say starting in right, because 141 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: we're trying to talk about concurrent conference. They all go back. 142 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: Everything's going back quite a while. You mentioned Ali of 143 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 1: a little bit ago, and I don't want to talk 144 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: about him. Um, we're talking about il Ham Aliev, who's 145 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: the current president of Azerbaijan, the fourth UH and of 146 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: course the the son of the former leader, which is 147 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: always a recipe for a good functional des Also his 148 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: wife is vice president. Yeah, and his wife advice, which 149 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: is nice. It's just like it's just like house of cars. Yeah, 150 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 1: he's the Kevin spacey. Um. His his attitude and rhetoric 151 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 1: towards Armenian in general is eliminationists at best. Um, like 152 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: he's I mean, the country's put out stamps that show 153 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: Armenia being fumigated like dirt went during the height of 154 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: the pandemic, which like as a genocide scholar. You know, generally, 155 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,079 Speaker 1: when I see a picture of a place being gassed, 156 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: I get suspicious. Um Uh, they've taught, they've talked about 157 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 1: how it was a good thing that in the nineties 158 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,719 Speaker 1: Armenians were driven from Baku and the Bukoprograms and a 159 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: few other places. Um, I mean weren't there like literally 160 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: like some of those trophies at arms shows and stuff, 161 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: like pieces of captured equipment with blood on it and stuff. Yeah, 162 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: and they also had, um honestly one of the weirdest, 163 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: Like it's incredibly offensive and racist, h the these um 164 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: caricatures of our of Armenian soldiers who like, at the 165 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: same time they're like racist towards Armenians but also vaguely 166 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:14,079 Speaker 1: anti Semitic, Like they looked like a character of a 167 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: Jewish person to come out of their sturmer um with 168 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: like you know, and I understand how stereotypically people think 169 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: Armenians look in like these racist art where we have 170 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: you know, big hooked noses and big eyebrows and things 171 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: like that, which admittedly I know I meet both of 172 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: those personally, but that's besides the point of Like if 173 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 1: you look at the pictures and they were taken down 174 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: because like even like Israel was like, oh that's a 175 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: bit much, and like they help that happen. Um. But 176 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: like also to talk you can't talk about as by 177 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: genre without talking about Turkey because they have this ideology 178 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: that's like two people, one state. They they do believe 179 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: in like Pan Turranism, especially urd iwan Um. I mean 180 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: he's been ever ever since, he's gone like full fascist. 181 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: That's something he's been hammering the drum on and like 182 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: this is an extension of that. He's effectively a neo Ottomanist. 183 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: He wants to reunite the empire, which is fucking insane 184 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: but also has real life things, you know, but also 185 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: to bring us, you know, to the conflict that Americans 186 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: are more focusing on. As we've talked about before, this 187 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: is another similarity between what Russia is doing in Ukraine 188 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: and what is Ervajan and Turkey are doing in Armenia. 189 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: They're both these kind of um redemptionist dreams of people 190 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: who want to bring back some sort of lost imperial 191 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: splendor right and are are utilizing kind of the tactics 192 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: that the technics of genocide in order to try to 193 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: make that happen. Yeah. I think for Turkey it's a 194 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: lot of this lost splendor, especially as their economy ships 195 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: itself from mismanagement, and I think for Azerbaijan it's the 196 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: other way around. In the nineties, when we fought the 197 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: first car Bah or Armenia UM, I mean, it wasn't 198 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: from being militaries military, militarily superior, having more money. It 199 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: had to do with two largely unorganized forces in the 200 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: fallout of the Soviet Union, and Armenia end up winning. UM. 201 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 1: And ever since then, that loss has been something of 202 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: like national It's like it's kind of like the national 203 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: mythos of Azebaijan, because before then Azebaijan is a national 204 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: identity simply didn't exist. It's relatively new UM. And that 205 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: loss in that war became the defining moment. That's where UM, 206 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: the lost Armenia was internalized and like it became school 207 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: curriculum that Armenians were the were at fault for everything. 208 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: We're sub human. We've been compared to cockroaches. Like for instance, 209 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: if you have, say my last name, you cannot legally 210 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: enter the country of Azebaijan, like you cannot enter that 211 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: country with an Armenian last name, it's racism, and fascism 212 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: is state doctrine there. So when you know their oil 213 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: production kicked back up from after the war damages and 214 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 1: after the fallout of the Soviet Union, on top of 215 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 1: military reforms that have been lasting for thirty years, they're 216 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: the ones on the up swing now, not Turkey in 217 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: my opinion, and it also helps their fighting someone like Armenia, 218 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 1: which no Armenians that we have military history and everything, 219 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: but we have no fucking money, we have no natural resources, 220 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: we have no allies, we have no one's gonna air 221 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: drop palettes of fucking high Mars and Yerevan like, nobody's 222 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 1: coming to help us. We have a k S that 223 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: fought in the First War. We have BMP ones that 224 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: have probably seen more combat than most people who are 225 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: still alive. That's an armored personnel carrier. Essentially, we we 226 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 1: have nothing. Um, I'm not going to speak about the 227 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: cape bills of the Armenian military, but like you can 228 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: imagine what a small landlocked country with a small population 229 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: not a lot of money, can field. It's not a lot. Um, Yeah, 230 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: it's not a lot. And this kind of gets us 231 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: to another topic that has to be broached with his 232 00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: which is kind of talking about the relationship of rush 233 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: you to all this because one of the things that's 234 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:08,319 Speaker 1: very frustrating about this conflict is that Americans particularly tend 235 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: to want things very simply. So you hear you've got 236 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: a Russian client state, which is how it's not what 237 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: Armenia is. I'm not saying that, Joe, obviously, but is 238 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: how it's easy to course, especially like kind of in 239 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: the boil out, sort of break things out as it's like, Okay, 240 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: you've got this state backed by Russia and then you've 241 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: got this other state fighting that that's backed by Turkey. Well, 242 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: Turkey's part of NATO, they're part of, you know, the 243 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: fight against Russia, so they must be the good guys. 244 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: And none of that's accurate. But I think it's I 245 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: think it's important to explain why. So, I mean, it's 246 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: it's really hard to explain Armenia and Russia's relationship other 247 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: than imperialism. Um. Obviously, Armenia has been conquered by countless 248 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: countries throughout our fucking long history, but the most recent 249 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: one being the Soviet Union, which we did not join willingly. Um. 250 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: And then after the fall of the Soviet Union and 251 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: the Russian Federation. Um, we're solidly within Russia's fear of 252 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: influences by no active choice of ours. We're members of 253 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: the cts O, we're members of the Eurasian Economic Union, 254 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: and neither of those were by choice. We were strong 255 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: armed into it because there's no there's nothing else, there's 256 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: no other option. UM. And as far as it goes, 257 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: is is like the brotherly relationship or this client state. 258 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: It would be exactly like someone blaming Ukraine for what 259 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: happened in Maidan, or blaming Ukraine for what happened in 260 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: or what happened now because they're trying to get away 261 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: from that. I mean, we can't. We don't have the 262 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: resources to do it. Just just for an example of 263 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: how Armenia plays like tight ropes. This ship. Never once 264 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: if we voted in favor of Russia during this war. 265 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: We like they're like our representatives to the U n 266 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: our our Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Our prime minister is 267 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: solidly neutral because that's the best he can do. UM. Right, 268 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: you know, he's either voted against UH, he's voted h 269 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: he's abstained. He's never voted for to support Usha during 270 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: this ward all um. Now, obviously, back in there was 271 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: a different Armenia. UM. We had a pro EU movement 272 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: here that was quite strong. This is before I lived here, 273 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: of course, UM that voted to declare our intentions to 274 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: want to join the EU. I believe this is under 275 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: President Sergisan Um. And it passed overwhelmingly in the popular vote, 276 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: because unlike the people invading us, we are a free 277 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: and fair democracy with the freedom of speech and expression 278 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: and everything else that people like to claim they want 279 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: to defend, but they don't UM. And after a five 280 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: minute meeting with Putin, it was gone. There's no more referendum, 281 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: and we decided not to join the EU anymore. But 282 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: we I mean the president. After that we had our 283 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: Velvet Revolution which got rid of him um and distance 284 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: ourselves from Russia as much as we realistically could. So 285 00:16:55,600 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: I believe, for instance, Armenia kind of slight least supported 286 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: Russia when it came to annexing Crimea. And now you 287 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: can kind of see why the president was a fucking stooge. 288 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: That's not the case anymore. We now have a parliamentary 289 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: system and as much as I am not the biggest 290 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 1: fan of Prime minister or Bashionon, He's not that guy. 291 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 1: That's not like and Armenia is a different world. Um. 292 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: And I know, like like you said, people really like 293 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 1: to simplify these things. They want this to be a 294 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: team sport. They want this to be NATO versus Russia, 295 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: and you know, people like Belarus or whoever else. But 296 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: there's a there's a pretty big fucking difference here. We 297 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,719 Speaker 1: have not actively supported this war. There has been anti 298 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: war protests outside my fucking windows since the war has started. 299 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: Ukrainians have flooded here by the thousands and they have 300 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: met nothing but Armenians who have welcomed them with open arms. 301 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: Russians have come too, and we're not the biggest fans 302 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 1: of them. But what can you do about it? Um? 303 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 1: You know, like, yeah, we're we're solidly neutral in this. 304 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: And it's one of the things that fucking and I 305 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: mean granted neutral government wise, people wise. Absolutely, we're not neutral. Um. 306 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: And one of the things that pisces me off the 307 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: most is that people can see the realities of the 308 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: war in Ukraine where they can see right through Russian 309 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: propaganda when it's like demilitarization, denoification, whatever, and they can 310 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: see on its face that's complete and utter bullshit. But 311 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: like when because you know, Ukraine is fighting for their sovereignty, 312 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: their independence and the right to exist that we all 313 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 1: have um, and when it comes to us, we don't 314 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: get that, like, oh, well, we're calling for both sides 315 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: a de escalate and maybe our Menia shouldn't have started this. 316 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: We haven't done anything. It was fucking midnight last night 317 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 1: and the South started being bombed. What the fund is 318 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: there to be de escalated. You can't de escalate self defense, 319 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: So you have what is a really uncomfortable situation. From that, 320 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't like talking about the reality 321 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: of it because essentially, when you have a country like 322 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: Azerbaijan that is insisting on repeatedly violating the territory of 323 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: its neighbor um and that has proven not just a 324 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: willingness but an eagerness to engage and engage in acts 325 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: of ethnic cleansing and genocide, you have two options for 326 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: dealing with that other than let them do it right. 327 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: Option one is send in peacekeepers to stop the aggression. 328 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: Now Russia has troops that were called peacekeepers in the area. Um, 329 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: you know, there's you could debate prior to the invasion 330 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,479 Speaker 1: of Ukraine how good they were at that job. Um, 331 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: but they certainly are not capable of doing it now. Um. 332 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: So then the question is, Okay, who else? Who? What? 333 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: Who else is peacekeepers are gonna come in? Right? And 334 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: if that's not a realistic solution, and you don't want 335 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: to let Azerbaijan just do a genocide, then what you 336 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: do issue give them weapons Armenia weapons, not as people 337 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: already doing that part unfortunately the US. And yeah, indeed, um, 338 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: And again there's this we're all kind of in terms 339 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: of like the discourse around this in the United States, 340 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 1: living in the shadow of the War on Terror, in 341 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: which an irresponsible quantity of weapons were handed out to 342 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: an irresponsible variety of groups. Um, and many of them 343 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: went to bad ends in bad places. Um. The reality 344 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: is that you know, we're sitting on a fucking stockpile 345 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: of weapons here in the United States as tall as 346 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: the sky and handing over a tiny percent of that. 347 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 1: When people talk about like that we're giving this much 348 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 1: aid Ukraine, We're not spending that much cash straight on 349 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: a d Ukraine. We're picking up ship we have in mothballs, 350 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: and well, we're handing it to them because we've spent 351 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 1: all of our treasure on on a pile of guns 352 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: larger than you can conceive of in terms of its 353 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: actual size and weight. UM. And I don't know, like 354 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: when when I think about what is to be fucking 355 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: done here realistically, UM, I would like for Ourmnia to 356 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 1: have access to javelins and send some stingers. Even One 357 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: of the things that pisses me off is like, like 358 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: you said, there's two options here, you do nothing and 359 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,199 Speaker 1: you're complicit in a genocide. That's what this hits like. 360 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: It's it's like being silent and you know, um and 361 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: in nineteen it's being silent. In nineteen fifteen, it's being 362 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: silent Rwanda. We were silent during most of those things, 363 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: and we saw how they all were. Like, there's only 364 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,640 Speaker 1: one way this fucking ends if we don't get guns, 365 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: and that's with a lot of dead Armenians. That that 366 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,479 Speaker 1: that by supporting Ajerbaijan or sitting out, that is what 367 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: you explicitly support is thousands and thousands of dead civilians. 368 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 1: Like that's the only way this ends. And it is 369 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: again and I hate keep that we keep going back 370 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: to Ukraine but it's relevant because it's the the the 371 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: it's the conflict that people are actually focusing on the 372 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: people who are counter on on anti side, providing weapons 373 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: to the Ukrainian military and make claims about corruption, which 374 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,919 Speaker 1: they could also make about the Armenian government, um, and 375 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: claims about you know, arms trafficking and all that stuff. 376 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 1: But so far, and Ukraine, by the way, is a 377 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: country with a deeper history of corruption, significantly in the 378 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: Armenian government even um, we haven't seen government is less 379 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: corrupt than Ukraine's. Yeah, um, you haven't seen a ton 380 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: of that happening. What you have seen is the weapons 381 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,959 Speaker 1: that have been handed to them, blowing up invaders, tanks 382 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: and aircraft. Um. And the sheer quantity that has been 383 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: destroyed is evidence that that weaponry has been used pretty responsibly. 384 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: And when you were talking about a group of people 385 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: facing annihilation, I'm simply not worried that they're going to 386 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: sell their stingers to fucking Isis or wherever that who 387 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: are going to have turkey in one side the Georgia. 388 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 1: That's actually fine, Like you know, and that's why I 389 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: think people are fucking gutless. Um, you saw this happen 390 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 1: in February, before they're in January, before the war in 391 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 1: Ukraine started, when people like, oh, weapons are only gonna 392 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: make it worse. No, they're fucking not. You know what's 393 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 1: worse than than an armed population defending itself is an 394 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: unarmed one being murdered anyway. And we in case nobody 395 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 1: has paid attention, because they probably didn't, you can go 396 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: back and look at the video footage of what happens 397 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 1: to unarmed Armenians, and it's the same fucking ship Isis 398 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,959 Speaker 1: did to yuzd S. It's the same fucking ship they 399 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: did occurreds, and it's the same fucking ship that will 400 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: happen again if we do not get what we need 401 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: to defend ourselves. And I don't give a funk if 402 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: you don't like Russia. I don't fucking like Russia either. 403 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: But it's the reality that we live in. If you're 404 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: if you're fucking intelligent enough to realize the diplomacy and 405 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: geopolitics of how Ukraine ended up in the war that 406 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 1: they're in now, you should understand why we are in 407 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: the situation that we are into. You cannot realistically believe 408 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,719 Speaker 1: we deserve what is happening unless you also believe Ukraine 409 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: deserves what's happening to them. It's impossible. I don't know. 410 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: This is obviously how could this not be like emotional 411 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: and it is just feeling like I can't and it 412 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: must be so much worse. Obviously you just being there, 413 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: but like this, this feeling of a fucking train coming 414 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: at you, and people aren't gonna do ship because there's 415 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: this fucking problem with optic and it's more complicated when 416 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: we talk about I'm talking about we're gonna talk about optics. 417 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: I guess we're talking about discourse. When it comes about 418 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: like why politically the United States is unlikely to do 419 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: anything like what we suggested, It's more complicated than that, 420 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: and a decent amount of it comes down to the 421 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 1: fact that we have what is it, thirteen nuclear weapons 422 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 1: stationed in Turkey right now, land stolen from Armenians from 423 00:24:54,160 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: the genocide. Great stuff America we really knock out of 424 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: the park. What is it that people can do to 425 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: help outside of trying to become informed about the conflict, 426 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,479 Speaker 1: which I think we can talk about some sources at 427 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: the end of this. Are there places, you know, Red 428 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,360 Speaker 1: Cross style things that people can donate to to help 429 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: to the extent that that's kind of a thing is helpful. Yeah, Um, 430 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, generally crowdfunding for weapons systems is 431 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:37,360 Speaker 1: illegal unless you're Ukraine nowadays, so I'm thinking more about medical. Um. 432 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: The Armenian Red Cross is always a good option. They 433 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 1: helped a lot in they still help now, we still 434 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,640 Speaker 1: have a ton of internally displaced people. Um. There's also 435 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: the hind drum In Fund, which directly funds wounded servicemen 436 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: because we really don't have a v A exactly here. Um. 437 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: There's quite a few other ones, but the the Armenian 438 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: Red Crosses of course the most reliable and easy to 439 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 1: donate if you're in the West. For sure. You don't 440 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 1: have to navigate any confusing Armenian language websites because it's 441 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,640 Speaker 1: it's hard and isn't great with the internet, so like 442 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: most of them don't have translations. Um. But you know 443 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: it's yeah, I understand, I'm a little bit more emotional 444 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 1: than most people. Probably hear me on podcasts, but like, um, 445 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: I'm mad, I'm mad, I'm fucking frustrated. Um. I don't 446 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 1: know how much longer people can let this kind of 447 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: thing happen. Um. I hope the e use gas this 448 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: winter is fucking worth it, because this is what you've got. 449 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: This is what that deal got us. So I hope 450 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 1: you're nice and warm in the fucking winter because we 451 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,959 Speaker 1: probably won't have power or we'll have more dead or whatever. 452 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: But real glad you pivoted away from Russian gas and 453 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:57,439 Speaker 1: sign a deal. Fucking ashby Jean, you spineless fox. And 454 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: it's a I mean, it goes the spinelessness is deeper 455 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: than that, right, because the reason why the fucking gas 456 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: crunch that led to that deal happened in the first 457 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 1: place was among a number of things, years of seeding 458 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: to Russian government aggression in places like Georgia, in places 459 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 1: like Ukraine. And you've got that, you know, here you 460 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: have the invasion by a Zerbaijan almost like two years 461 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 1: ago now and then and and no pushback right when 462 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: you this is this is the thing is And this 463 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: is not a popular kind of thing to go to 464 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: talk about on the left, but but it's true. If 465 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,680 Speaker 1: you want to pay attention to why why that whole 466 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: World War two situation got so goddamn bad, A big 467 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 1: part of it is they're not being any kind of 468 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: effective rules based international order to stop bigger countries or 469 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: at least more aggressive ones, from fucking with their neighbors. 470 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: And one of the things we were supposed to have 471 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: learned from that war is that you don't let people 472 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 1: do that. It's bad, yea that when a mother shows up, Yeah, 473 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,479 Speaker 1: like it shouldn't be that hard. Tis I don't care 474 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: what your politics is. I mean, everybody knows that we're 475 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 1: both very left wing. But when someone comes continuously fox 476 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 1: with you, the only way to make them stop is 477 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: by hitting them in the goddamn face until they realize 478 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: it's not a good idea like this, Like diplomacy doesn't 479 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 1: work when one side only wants you dead. You can't 480 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 1: debate my right to live, or my neighbor's right to live, 481 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: or these kids right to live wherever they're fucking schools 482 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 1: bombed right now, there's no debate to be had. You 483 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: have to hit them until they fucking stop. There's like, 484 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, there's not gonna be any de escalation of 485 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: fucking genocide. Like that's not how this works. People tend 486 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: to get this in the immediate sense when you're talking about, 487 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: you know, some fucking bigot in front of you, everybody, 488 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: everybody loves, you know, cheering on a video of some guy, 489 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: you know, dropping a racial slur and getting knocked to 490 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,239 Speaker 1: the ground. Obviously those are a lot of um. But 491 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: the the the moral is that if you let assholes. 492 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: The actual moral of like why it's important to punch 493 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: Nazis in the face when they're doing Nazi ship is 494 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: that if you just let them do Nazi ship and 495 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: you try to like appease them and calm them down, 496 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: you'll often calm them down here and there, and they're like, 497 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: back off, but they'll have gotten a little bit more, 498 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:20,719 Speaker 1: They'll have gotten a little bit of what they want, 499 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: they'll have gotten a little bit further, and they just 500 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: keep making ship worse until somebody actually does fucking drop them. 501 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: And it's the same with you know. And again I 502 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: I we just talked about with the great lesson of 503 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: World War two should have been and the thing that 504 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,959 Speaker 1: actually happens the generation that took power in the United 505 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: States and in a lot of other Western countries after that, 506 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: not exclusively the West, but I think we're talking about 507 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: our our our people here. Um immediately went and fucked 508 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: around and carried out acts of aggression all over the world. Um, 509 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean the basic lesson is bad. The 510 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: lesson is don't let pete. We should not have been 511 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: allowed to do that, um, but we shouldn't like that 512 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: should not be a thing that the world accepts, Like 513 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: the you can't just sit back and be like, oh, well, 514 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: that country's gonna go do a genocide now, but it's 515 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: far away, so there's nothing to be done other than 516 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: continue to buy the oil of the people doing the 517 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: genocide and thereby fund the genocide, right like it's it's 518 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: fucking unconscionable, man like, and even if you want to 519 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: look at this as like the West also funcked around 520 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: during the coldar which like, yeah, you know what, everybody 521 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: did you stop them? They didn't funk around so much 522 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: in Southeast Asia after the US got punched in the 523 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: fucking face in Vietnam, did that? That's right? Yeah, well 524 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: it was a lot less. It shouldn't be this fucking complicated. 525 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: I don't I don't care what political ideology you subscribe to, 526 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: Like it's self defense, like it's collective defense, mutual self defense. 527 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: When we need help, you give us fucking help. Like, yeah, 528 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: it shouldn't be that fucking hard. I mean to be 529 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: fair for for some people who will never really matter 530 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: because they don't see countries like Armenia or countries like 531 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: Azerbaijan is having agency to do their own things and 532 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: want their own things. Um. And if that is you, 533 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: I hope to see your house on sn end one day. Um. 534 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,719 Speaker 1: But like you know that does there should be like 535 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: that sounds like, um, like an old Russian curse, like me, 536 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: your house beyond the sea, and I believe it's from 537 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: the Balkans. Yeah, yeah, but I can imagine yes, a 538 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: little old ladies saying that to you. We we have 539 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: the right to freedom as much as anyone else. And um, 540 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: not only that we've achieved it, Like Armenia is a 541 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: is a moderately progressive place. I mean we're still working 542 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: on some things. We have the freest democracy in the region. Um. 543 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,479 Speaker 1: We have great standard of living for most people. Um, 544 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: and it was only getting better. This is a place 545 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: as freer and fairer elections and virtually anyone else over here, 546 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: to include Russia, to include fucking Ukraine, to include Turkey, 547 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: to include all these places that people insists are worth defending. 548 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: I'm just curious why we're not like, why are like, 549 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: why are Armenians less than? What did we ever fucking 550 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: do to deserve this? It's it's incredibly depressing, um. And 551 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 1: maybe we're not the right shade of white. I don't. 552 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: I don't fucking know anymore man Like it's it's it's 553 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: really weird to me. Um. Even like internationally geopolitically, you know, 554 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: the Secretary of State blinken urged both sides of de escalate, 555 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: Suck my fucking dick. What are we de escalating? They're 556 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: invading us? I would like to ask al Qaeda would 557 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: really like to ask the city of New York to 558 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: de escalate. When planes flew into the World Trade cent 559 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: are like, get the funk out of here, Like, how 560 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: do you de escalate this? They're bombing cities like it's 561 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: it's maddening, um, and it's not gonna end. It's not 562 00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: gonna end until someone fucking ends it. We can't. We 563 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: we just had a generationally destroying war two years ago 564 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: that we have not recovered from. We have an entire 565 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: society that's dealing with various different forms of PTSD. UM. 566 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: We don't have the the institutions to take care of 567 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: all of the victims from two years ago. Um, we 568 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 1: didn't get any help that either, and we're not gonna 569 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: get any help now. I uh yeah, you know. I 570 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: think again, there's this, there's this tendency towards isolationism and 571 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: the left brought on by the Iraq War. But none 572 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: of this, if nothing is done, if there's no international 573 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: response to this, and if these areas aren't aren't stopped 574 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: by you know, in auto cathonic resistance, Um, then it 575 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: won't stop with Armenia, because violence of this sort never does. 576 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 1: There's a there's a book I'm interested in your thoughts 577 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: on it, actually, Joe, but I found it quite eliminating 578 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: a number of years ago, An Inconvenient gen Aside by 579 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: Adam Hosschild, which is about the Armenian genocide and its 580 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: influence on Hitler, making the point that even though Hitler 581 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,439 Speaker 1: never was anywhere close to Armenia, neither were any fucking 582 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:17,720 Speaker 1: German troops for that matter, particularly close Imperial German troops 583 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: were Oh yeah, we're we're very much in charge of 584 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,879 Speaker 1: a lot of different death squads. It's it's a it's 585 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: a weird story. Hitler's Hitler's gerofe of course I apologize, 586 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: I meant, I meant THEE. But the point that host 587 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: Child was making was that Hitler was not engaged in 588 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: the Armenian genocide, but he paid attention to it and 589 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: the fact that the young Turks got away with it, 590 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: um and and got to take that let take land that, 591 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: as you pointed out, is currently occupied by some US 592 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: nuclear war heads. Um was was part of what emboldened 593 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: him to do not just the Holocaust but everything he 594 00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: did in Europe. And there was a line specifically in 595 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: reference the Holocaust from Hitler I but it was during 596 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: this table talk that was like essentially he was saying, well, 597 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: of course we'll get away with it. Nobody remembers Armenians anymore. Yeah, 598 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: it's literally on the wall. Yeah exactly. And that's the 599 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:17,359 Speaker 1: thing is like it goes back right, like everybody was saying, 600 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 1: because I mean, I understand the politics behind our sock 601 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,280 Speaker 1: are messy for people who are not from this region, 602 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: and I'm I don't have enough time to go into them. 603 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,919 Speaker 1: The majority of Armenian population that was given to Azerbaijan 604 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: by the Soviet Union with absolutely no process, and they 605 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: attempted to vote to join Armenia while we were still 606 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,320 Speaker 1: in the Soviet Union, which is well within the rights 607 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: according to the Soviet Unions constitution if such rights functionally existed, 608 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: which they did not. Um, And that's what started the 609 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 1: first war, but in every war has been about that 610 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,399 Speaker 1: ever since, effectively, at least politically on its surface, because 611 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: internationally is recognized as part of Azerbay Sean because they 612 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: go off old Soviet maps for fucking reasons. I don't know. 613 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 1: I mean we can talk exactly, um, but like you know, 614 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 1: in people were saying that, like, oh, if this will 615 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: all end if Armenia simply gives up art stock, which 616 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: we don't claim art so nobody, I mean, some some 617 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: people do. The government does not. Um, we don't recognize 618 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: it as an independent country either, which they themselves have 619 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: declared themselves. It's it's messy, I understand, but um, it's 620 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 1: it's not within the Republic of Armenia to negotiate the 621 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: non existence of the Republic of Artsach. That is their 622 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,240 Speaker 1: right to self determination, that is politically what the government believes. 623 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: Now they were saying, well, now that these areas have 624 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:48,840 Speaker 1: been taken over by age by Jean, we can finally 625 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 1: move towards peace. There's fucking peace talks. A week ago 626 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:57,360 Speaker 1: the Prime Minister pashion Yan met with Aliev. I believe 627 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 1: in Belgium, and I'm not entirely sure they literally met 628 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: a week ago, maybe it was two weeks ago, like 629 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: it was very recent. But the thing is is every 630 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 1: time this peace process starts again, this happens because it's 631 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: not about Arsa, it's not about Naganokarla, it's not about 632 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: any of these. It's it's about our right, our fundamental 633 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 1: right to exist. They do not believe in it, like 634 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: it's not just like it wasn't about um Jews being 635 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,720 Speaker 1: involved in business, so it wasn't about Jews marrying Germans. 636 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,880 Speaker 1: It was about their fundamental right to exist. Like it's 637 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:31,719 Speaker 1: it's all it is. It's the same can be said 638 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: for Palestinians. This is this isn't about palest I mean 639 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: thinking of which fucking Israelis are just just placing Armenians 640 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: in Palestine as well, Like it's it's not about it's 641 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 1: not about these these small little nibbles that they're taking. 642 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 1: It's not about the freedom of movement. It's not about 643 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: your right to date someone which came up recently they 644 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,240 Speaker 1: made some Israeli la against that you have to declare 645 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,799 Speaker 1: your romantic intentions before you go into the West Bank 646 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 1: or whatever like. It's not about those things. Those are 647 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: Maybe that'll make maybe that'll make it easier to get 648 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: the the American leftists on this one. Right, No, no, guys, 649 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: it's Israel is bad. The bad guys here. We can 650 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 1: do genocide. Yea, Actually that's not entirely true. He probably would, 651 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 1: but m the thing is that it's not about these 652 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 1: small nibbles. It's not about your right to do X, 653 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,359 Speaker 1: or your right to do why. It's not about art 654 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: socks right, the freedom it's it's it's they don't believe 655 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 1: you should exist, and they will take and take and 656 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 1: take and take until you're fucking powerless and they can 657 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: wipe you out. That is their role. I mean, you 658 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 1: can see that in Palestine, you can see that, in Arsa, 659 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 1: you can see that increasingly in Armenia. You can see. 660 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,720 Speaker 1: That's what Russia's goal was in Ukraine, it was Russia's 661 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: goal in Georgia. It's how imperialism fucking works. It doesn't 662 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 1: have to have an American flag or British flag over it. 663 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:57,320 Speaker 1: For that to be what it's culled, it's genocidal imperialism. 664 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,040 Speaker 1: And like if if you're too dumb to fucking see that, 665 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 1: I don't know what else to tell you, Like, I 666 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:04,840 Speaker 1: don't know how else these are. Do you need me 667 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,839 Speaker 1: to draw and fucking crayon? Yeah? And I think we're 668 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: both getting angry here, primarily at groups of people who 669 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,319 Speaker 1: I don't believe are the primary listeners that will have 670 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 1: on this. Not necessarily but but but I get it. 671 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 1: Like no, it's it's this constant fucking thing you have 672 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,879 Speaker 1: whenever there's a war anywhere, and you are like, well, 673 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 1: what is the solution, Well, the people who are the 674 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 1: victims need to have access to weapons? Um. Yeah. And 675 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 1: if you're and if you're saying, which I agree with, 676 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: sending in US or whatever troops to ex country usually 677 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: it doesn't work out, then what are what is the 678 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,239 Speaker 1: option give them fucking weapons? Yeah? And honestly, like what 679 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,439 Speaker 1: would make the situation worse if we had American soldiers here? 680 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,959 Speaker 1: Like yeah, I mean I just don't. I just don't 681 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:56,319 Speaker 1: think that's a thing that logistically the US military can do. Well. Um, 682 00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: but like yeah, like there's some situations where Yes, military 683 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:05,360 Speaker 1: assistance could make a situation worse. Bad things will happen. 684 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,319 Speaker 1: You cannot deploy large amounts of weapons or soldiers to 685 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: a specific area without there being some kind of negative effects. However, 686 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:17,280 Speaker 1: you have to realistically weigh the good and the bad. Yeah, 687 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:22,239 Speaker 1: the world military the Allies bombed Germany flat, but they 688 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 1: stopped the fucking holocaust. Yeah, we blew up a fair 689 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,960 Speaker 1: amount of people in the nineties. We stopped a genocide, 690 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: like we blew up the ship out of Isis, and 691 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,839 Speaker 1: there was also some civilian casualties, which fucking sucked quite 692 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: a few. You stop the Aziti genocide with the assistance 693 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,680 Speaker 1: of the PKK and and the YPG and the y PG, like, 694 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:50,720 Speaker 1: you cannot unleash military power without the acceptance that innocent 695 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,760 Speaker 1: people are going to die. The way that you weigh 696 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 1: that is more fucking people are going to die if 697 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,879 Speaker 1: you don't. That's that's I think the key of it, 698 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: and probably the point to close on is that it's 699 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 1: not a decision do we do we bring violence to 700 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: this situation or not the situation. The question is how 701 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 1: how lopsided will the violence be? Will the violence be 702 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: one state armed by its allies massacring an under you know, 703 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,919 Speaker 1: equipped military and then civilians until there's no one left 704 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,839 Speaker 1: of the people who inhabited that area. Um or will 705 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,440 Speaker 1: those people have the equipment to defend themselves? Like that? 706 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 1: That's the question. There's no, there's no the situation. The 707 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 1: only way for the situation to not be violent is 708 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,399 Speaker 1: for Zerbaijan to not do what they're doing right now. 709 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,400 Speaker 1: Um And hey, if if some sort of fucking diplomatic 710 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,960 Speaker 1: pressure works, I will I will be unbelievably psyched to 711 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 1: eat both of our words in this if the fucking 712 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 1: blinken manages to I don't. I don't. Yeah, I have 713 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 1: no idea, like how how you actually have an impact here, 714 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,719 Speaker 1: but that would be lovely. I just don't think it's likely. Yeah, 715 00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,440 Speaker 1: there's I mean, don't be wrong. There's a time for diplomacy, 716 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,359 Speaker 1: and that time ends when troops attempt across the border 717 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,960 Speaker 1: or they start cluster bombing our cities. Like there's there's 718 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,919 Speaker 1: a time for diplomacy and not that you can do 719 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 1: two things at once. And and to be completely clear, 720 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:16,840 Speaker 1: I'm not calling for like the hundred and first to 721 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 1: fucking land in Yovan or whatever, Like I don't want 722 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 1: the American military to come here. We'll take care of ourselves, 723 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: but we need the tools to do so. And the 724 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: fact remains is like you can be vehemently against war. 725 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,280 Speaker 1: I know I am. I fought in them. They fucking suck. 726 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 1: I do not want war to happen to anybody, But 727 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,839 Speaker 1: when they when it comes, talking is over, or at 728 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,720 Speaker 1: least it it hits the back burner. Like there's negotiations 729 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 1: going on in Ukraine and Russia that we don't hear about. 730 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,160 Speaker 1: But at the same time, Ukraine knows they have to 731 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 1: continue doing violence in the meantime, Like you can't. You 732 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:54,960 Speaker 1: can't just like whoa, guys, let's just hit the brakes 733 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,840 Speaker 1: and let's like have a fucking peace conference in Belgium 734 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,600 Speaker 1: or whatever. Like soon it is being bombed, glorious is 735 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 1: being bought, like our Meenians are dying. Like there's no 736 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 1: words that will fix that, but we'll fix it. Is 737 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 1: fucking artillery systems, high mars, GPS, guided weapons, fucking body armor. 738 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,399 Speaker 1: We don't even have first aid kits, like there's there's 739 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,400 Speaker 1: there's things that we need that can happen in addition 740 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 1: to political pressure, because political pressure is great. If we 741 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: ever have it, but there needs to be something in 742 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:28,359 Speaker 1: the meantime. Like the director of Doctors Without Borders one 743 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:32,759 Speaker 1: time said, um, something that was incredibly controversial when he said, 744 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:34,840 Speaker 1: because he's a doctor and he runs, you know, a charity, 745 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:39,040 Speaker 1: he said, you can't stop at genocide of doctors. And 746 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 1: he meant that you need to give people fucking weapons 747 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:43,920 Speaker 1: because you know there's like like we already said, and 748 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,480 Speaker 1: then I'll promise they'll stop talking. Um, there's two ways 749 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 1: that this ends. We defend ourselves and we survive, or 750 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 1: you sit by and you do nothing, and uh, there's 751 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 1: thousands of more graves full of Armenians by the end 752 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,160 Speaker 1: of this. That's it. I mean, once upon a time 753 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,200 Speaker 1: the world said never again, and that ship has had 754 00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,000 Speaker 1: a big fucking asterix next to it ever since. And 755 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:06,480 Speaker 1: people need to prove themselves. You need to fucking prove 756 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,880 Speaker 1: the words actually mean things. If you want to defend 757 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,080 Speaker 1: democracies and ship like you do in Ukraine. I have 758 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:17,320 Speaker 1: a fucking democracy for you to defend, and we need weapons. Yeah. 759 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:18,839 Speaker 1: I think that's as good a note as I need 760 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 1: to end on. Jok a sabian Um host of Lions 761 00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 1: led by Donkeys, author of The Hooligans of Kandahar. You've 762 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,600 Speaker 1: got other bunch of other books that have come out now. Yeah, 763 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:32,520 Speaker 1: I have the Victory of Death series out if you 764 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,239 Speaker 1: enjoy military sci fi. Uh, and I have another one 765 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:39,440 Speaker 1: coming out in October called The Frontier Corps. You can 766 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:43,760 Speaker 1: preorder it now. Um. If you look on my Twitter, um, 767 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,720 Speaker 1: you can find a link to preorder it. It's free 768 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:50,319 Speaker 1: if you have UM Kindle unlimited, so you know if 769 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:55,879 Speaker 1: for the book, um so yeah. Also if you don't 770 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,000 Speaker 1: feel like giving me money, that's that's great to donate 771 00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:04,400 Speaker 1: to the Armenian Red Cross. They need more than I do. Yeah. Um, 772 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:13,879 Speaker 1: all right, everybody, that's the episode. Um. I It could 773 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,319 Speaker 1: Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media or 774 00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:19,040 Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website cool 775 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,080 Speaker 1: zone media dot com, or check us out on the 776 00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,799 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 777 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,799 Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, 778 00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,320 Speaker 1: updated monthly at cool Zone Media dot com slash sources. 779 00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:31,360 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.