1
00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:10,000
Speaker 1: Welcome to Creature feature production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host

2
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:15,080
Speaker 1: of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology,

3
00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,080
Speaker 1: and today on the show we are getting guy and

4
00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,119
Speaker 1: you can see we are talking about animal immune systems

5
00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,439
Speaker 1: now as we hopefully exit the cold and flu season.

6
00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,840
Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of you have had some recent

7
00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:35,919
Speaker 1: experience with your immune system, and despite how unpleasant it is,

8
00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,919
Speaker 1: it is also really fascinating. So today is a special

9
00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,320
Speaker 1: episode because I have a guest who is a naturalist,

10
00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:48,960
Speaker 1: a teacher, and an author whose recent book, Sick is

11
00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:54,320
Speaker 1: about amazing stories of the animal immune system. It would

12
00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,280
Speaker 1: be a book that if I had got my hands

13
00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,160
Speaker 1: on this book when I was a kid, it would

14
00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,839
Speaker 1: be like my personal Bible. Is it is really fun

15
00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,120
Speaker 1: even for adults. Welcome Heather Montgomery.

16
00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,080
Speaker 2: Hey, I'm so excited to be here and talk to

17
00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,120
Speaker 2: folks who are just as excited as I am to

18
00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,080
Speaker 2: learn from the animal world. It's so amazing what's out there.

19
00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:19,840
Speaker 2: If we open our eyes and start asking questions. Wow,

20
00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:21,520
Speaker 2: I just get carried away with it.

21
00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,160
Speaker 1: I feel like we're very much kindred spirits. Because I

22
00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,960
Speaker 1: love the grossness of biology Obviously, I do love a

23
00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,080
Speaker 1: beautiful butterfly. I love a beautiful bird, but I think

24
00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,600
Speaker 1: I also enjoy appreciating just the you know, the poop

25
00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,959
Speaker 1: of nature. It's so interesting and it's I mean, it's

26
00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,520
Speaker 1: not only a great way to I think teach kids

27
00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:49,640
Speaker 1: about it, because like, you know, you got to lean

28
00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:51,560
Speaker 1: in a little bit to like the gross stuff to

29
00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:55,280
Speaker 1: get kids interested. But honestly, I also believe that is

30
00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,560
Speaker 1: true of adults. Like we may not like to admit it,

31
00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:02,680
Speaker 1: but I certainly have never outgrown learning stuff about poop

32
00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,600
Speaker 1: and fighting. It both kind of funny and really interesting.

33
00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,360
Speaker 2: Right, isn't that funny that happens? Like when we grow up,

34
00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,000
Speaker 2: we're supposed to not be interested in the things that

35
00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,240
Speaker 2: we're innately interested in. I'm not sure why why, but

36
00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:19,079
Speaker 2: it's like we're always attracted and repelled at the same

37
00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:21,680
Speaker 2: time by these things, and those are the things that

38
00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,320
Speaker 2: fascinate me. I'm kind of curious as to why people

39
00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,560
Speaker 2: are so interested in the yanky stuff, but we are. Yeah,

40
00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:29,480
Speaker 2: It's it's really cool.

41
00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,560
Speaker 1: It is really interesting because it makes some sense that

42
00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:38,160
Speaker 1: we are repelled by poop, because I mean, in some ways,

43
00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:42,480
Speaker 1: it's very practical, right, poop can spread parasites, can spread disease.

44
00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,480
Speaker 1: But it's so it's good that we're not, you know,

45
00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,079
Speaker 1: that we grow out of the phase of playing in

46
00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:53,280
Speaker 1: our own poop. However, it is still really interesting. I

47
00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,320
Speaker 1: think that we are drawn to kind of like you know,

48
00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,480
Speaker 1: you when you're on a hike and you see some

49
00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,600
Speaker 1: animal dung and you see there's stuff poking out of it.

50
00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:06,400
Speaker 1: I think people would be lying if, like they wouldn't

51
00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,200
Speaker 1: admit that that's a little interesting, and you're kind of like, okay,

52
00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:10,880
Speaker 1: I do kind of want to poke that with a

53
00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:14,440
Speaker 1: stick and find out what's going on in there. It's

54
00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:20,560
Speaker 1: both gross for good reason, but it's also really interesting exactly.

55
00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:22,799
Speaker 2: That's actually what led me to write a whole book

56
00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:24,679
Speaker 2: about poop, a different book.

57
00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:26,880
Speaker 1: You know, it was a different book, yes, but it

58
00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:27,280
Speaker 1: was like.

59
00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,720
Speaker 2: The surprising site, right that we when we look at

60
00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,200
Speaker 2: this stuff that's so gross, what we can actually learn

61
00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,880
Speaker 2: about the world, whether it's animals, you know, or the

62
00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,400
Speaker 2: rest of the world. All of the kind of big

63
00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:42,760
Speaker 2: questions that come out of scat.

64
00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, absolutely, I mean it's it's a whole thing

65
00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,760
Speaker 1: like in in research, it's so such an important actual

66
00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:56,680
Speaker 1: kind of like research method is collecting and studying animal poop,

67
00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,320
Speaker 1: which sounds you know, it sounds like not a fun job,

68
00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,480
Speaker 1: but then when you think about it, like that is

69
00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,480
Speaker 1: kind of cool because you get to be out in nature,

70
00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,160
Speaker 1: you collect a bunch of dung, and then you bring

71
00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,960
Speaker 1: it back for analysis. But there is so there is

72
00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,480
Speaker 1: one poop story I want uh to talk about a

73
00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,760
Speaker 1: little bit. It's in your book. Uh. It's I think

74
00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,360
Speaker 1: one of the most endearingly gross stories about poop.

75
00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:21,640
Speaker 2: Uh.

76
00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:26,400
Speaker 1: It is about puppy poop and the mother's response to

77
00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:32,000
Speaker 1: puppy poop. And it's it's really cute but also horrifyingly disgusting,

78
00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,479
Speaker 1: and I don't it's one of those things where it's

79
00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:39,799
Speaker 1: like perfectly combining cuteness with grossness exactly right.

80
00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,360
Speaker 2: So, if you're a mom and you've got a whole

81
00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,760
Speaker 2: litter of puppies and a you know together, what are

82
00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,680
Speaker 2: they going to do? A lot of is boop? Right,

83
00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,400
Speaker 2: and that's awesome, You're got to get rid of the stuff.

84
00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:56,040
Speaker 2: Plus what if there's parasites in it, which they're likely

85
00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,000
Speaker 2: are you know, if you're if you're not a pet

86
00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,760
Speaker 2: and taken care of, and so how do you deal

87
00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,120
Speaker 2: with that, because the puppy's immune system can't deal with

88
00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:10,360
Speaker 2: it at all. So mom sacrifices and she laps it up.

89
00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,520
Speaker 2: She carries it away from her babies through her own

90
00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,840
Speaker 2: digestive system, which is atrocious but not really because her

91
00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,800
Speaker 2: immune systems better handle these kinds of parasites. Plus she

92
00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,159
Speaker 2: basically hauls away and she can't pick it up with

93
00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,200
Speaker 2: her hands, right, so she basically hauls away through her

94
00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,160
Speaker 2: system and deposits it elsewhere. And if she deposits it elsewhere,

95
00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,159
Speaker 2: soon enough, the eggs haven't hatched for say, the round one,

96
00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,400
Speaker 2: and so she gets rid of them. It's just like

97
00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,520
Speaker 2: that in and of itself, that kind of behavioral adaptation

98
00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:46,560
Speaker 2: is phenomenal to me, Like how that came about. It's

99
00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,560
Speaker 2: just amazing gross but awesome too.

100
00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,600
Speaker 1: You know, it's so gross, but it's so sweet because

101
00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,920
Speaker 1: like obviously you know, it's this dog wanting to I mean,

102
00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:59,520
Speaker 1: it's hard to talk about animals in terms of what

103
00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:03,160
Speaker 1: they want, like because they have these instincts, right, and

104
00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,440
Speaker 1: this mother dog doesn't know why she's drawn to eating

105
00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,560
Speaker 1: her offsprings poop, but it is it is a It's

106
00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,479
Speaker 1: still sweet because it's like this this instinct to protect

107
00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,800
Speaker 1: your offspring to help them grow and develop. I mean,

108
00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,640
Speaker 1: it makes sense, that's how evolution works. But it's also

109
00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,159
Speaker 1: like it's one of the things that like, oh yeah,

110
00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,160
Speaker 1: like humans are not the only ones that deal with

111
00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,800
Speaker 1: baby poop, like other animals deal with baby poop. A

112
00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,599
Speaker 1: cute thing. I think Another kind of cute gross poop

113
00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:40,720
Speaker 1: thing is that birds, a lot of bird species, they

114
00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,440
Speaker 1: don't want to just have their baby birds poop and

115
00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,039
Speaker 1: have the poop accumulate and the nests. So the baby

116
00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,720
Speaker 1: bird poop is actually kind of comes in it. When

117
00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:52,839
Speaker 1: it comes out, it's sort of encased in this like

118
00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:57,080
Speaker 1: mucosal sack, and then it lifts its little butt up

119
00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,640
Speaker 1: and presents this poop too. It's and the mom bird

120
00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:03,520
Speaker 1: just like picks it up with her beak because you know,

121
00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,400
Speaker 1: she doesn't have hands, and carries it outside the nest

122
00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,640
Speaker 1: and deposits it outside the nest. So it's it's kind

123
00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:12,360
Speaker 1: of gross but also really cute. And I have seen

124
00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,160
Speaker 1: a video of someone who's taking care of a baby

125
00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:20,440
Speaker 1: bird that was sadly abandoned, and this person has to

126
00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,560
Speaker 1: take a pair of chompsticks and pick up the little

127
00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,640
Speaker 1: poop package. Every time this bird feeds and then like

128
00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,480
Speaker 1: presents its butt, presents this poop. It's really cute and

129
00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,160
Speaker 1: also obviously a little gross.

130
00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:37,679
Speaker 2: Isn't it phenomenal that that works that way. I actually

131
00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,960
Speaker 2: challenge kids and adults sometimes because we're all just being kids,

132
00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:46,000
Speaker 2: to watch a nest with binoculars and you can actually

133
00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:51,440
Speaker 2: tell when the young have hatched and started to digest

134
00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,960
Speaker 2: food or consume food because you'll start to see the

135
00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:59,360
Speaker 2: mother and add too, carrying away the fecals. It's just crazy.

136
00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,120
Speaker 1: So it's it's like, oh, yeah, other animals, I guess

137
00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,760
Speaker 1: have to deal with quote unquote poopy diapers, except it's

138
00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:07,200
Speaker 1: like a natural diaper.

139
00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:09,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it would be great if you know, we

140
00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:14,000
Speaker 2: had national diapers for our young as well, but yeah,

141
00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:14,679
Speaker 2: but we don't.

142
00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:20,520
Speaker 1: No, we don't, we don't. So another major theme in

143
00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,559
Speaker 1: your book is the immune system, which I mean, again,

144
00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,239
Speaker 1: I as an adult, got to kick out of reading

145
00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:28,080
Speaker 1: this book, but it is It is a great book

146
00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:29,840
Speaker 1: for kids as well, and I think this is a

147
00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,680
Speaker 1: great introduction to the immune system to kids because it's

148
00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:38,200
Speaker 1: it seems overwhelming, right, like the immune system, it's so complicated,

149
00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,520
Speaker 1: there's so many things. But I think it's also like

150
00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,560
Speaker 1: when you think about the parts of the immune system,

151
00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:48,360
Speaker 1: it gets a little bit easier to understand what's going

152
00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,200
Speaker 1: on because there's actually two major parts of the immune system,

153
00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,199
Speaker 1: and one is the innate or non specific immune system

154
00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,800
Speaker 1: and the adaptive immune system. And the innate immune system

155
00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,440
Speaker 1: we see every day when you look in the mirror,

156
00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,240
Speaker 1: you look at other people. It's our skin, it's our mucus,

157
00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,960
Speaker 1: it's our earwax, our hair, all of these things that

158
00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:14,680
Speaker 1: are a barrier to pathogens. There's also on the cellular

159
00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:19,880
Speaker 1: level innate immune cells, such as phagocytes that will actually

160
00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,560
Speaker 1: basically eat pathogens, eat things that are not supposed to

161
00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,400
Speaker 1: be there, break them down so that they are harmless.

162
00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,679
Speaker 1: Sometimes they break it down and then that's when the

163
00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,319
Speaker 1: adaptive immune system can come into play. So the adaptive

164
00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,200
Speaker 1: immune system is the part of the immune system that

165
00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:43,640
Speaker 1: actually launches a response specifically towards a type of pathogen

166
00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,920
Speaker 1: that it recognizes. So when you learn about a virus,

167
00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,600
Speaker 1: like you get infected with a virus, your body learns

168
00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,600
Speaker 1: about it, then it launches an adaptive immune response, and

169
00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,800
Speaker 1: this one is a little more precise and it can

170
00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:04,800
Speaker 1: be stronger. It can in a stronger reaction. But it's

171
00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:09,040
Speaker 1: really interesting because this adaptive immune system is in this

172
00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:13,719
Speaker 1: kind of like ballet with viruses and bacteria, this evolutionary

173
00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:18,239
Speaker 1: kind of arms race, and so both humans and animals

174
00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:24,280
Speaker 1: have adaptive and innate immune systems, and the balances can

175
00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,080
Speaker 1: be different. Some animals actually have a very weak adaptive

176
00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:32,160
Speaker 1: immune system or a very weak innate immune system, and

177
00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,480
Speaker 1: it kind of they balance each other out. Like the

178
00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,720
Speaker 1: deep sea anglerfish has actually kind of done away with

179
00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:43,960
Speaker 1: a lot of its adaptive immune system because the male

180
00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:48,120
Speaker 1: deep sea anglerfish attaches itself to the female and actually

181
00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,320
Speaker 1: kind of like fuses grafts itself onto the female. And

182
00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:56,480
Speaker 1: if this adaptive immune system knew that this male was there,

183
00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,079
Speaker 1: it would try to kill it, and that would put

184
00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,120
Speaker 1: a kibosh on the who whole like mating strategy of

185
00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,120
Speaker 1: these these fish. And so instead it's thought that it

186
00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:10,080
Speaker 1: overcomes this weaker adaptive immune system with a stronger passive

187
00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,079
Speaker 1: immune system, like a you know, thicker skin, more mucosal

188
00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,760
Speaker 1: membranes and so, and also just the fact that they're

189
00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,920
Speaker 1: not really running into each other a lot down there.

190
00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:24,880
Speaker 1: So sparsely populated, but in general animals have both an

191
00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,440
Speaker 1: innate and an adaptive immune system, and the innate immune

192
00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:32,960
Speaker 1: system can be really really interesting. Uh. And I really

193
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:37,480
Speaker 1: love your examples in this book, especially when when we're

194
00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,120
Speaker 1: talking about slime. So what is so many animals are

195
00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:45,959
Speaker 1: slimy and it seems gross, but it's actually really interesting

196
00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,720
Speaker 1: and really important. So what is I mean, what is slime?

197
00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,160
Speaker 1: What is mucus? And what is what is it used for?

198
00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,640
Speaker 1: And why is it so popular in nature?

199
00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:56,840
Speaker 2: Oh, slime is awesome. Don't we love it? I mean,

200
00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,040
Speaker 2: it is just great. We all have it. It's there,

201
00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:01,280
Speaker 2: it's a part of of well I don't know an

202
00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,120
Speaker 2: animal that it's not a part of. But the amazing

203
00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:08,600
Speaker 2: thing is that slime protects us, you know, it's in

204
00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,880
Speaker 2: our nose and it's one of those other than the skin,

205
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,200
Speaker 2: which is kind of the first barrier, right, But that

206
00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,160
Speaker 2: slime is there to catch intruders as they come into

207
00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,320
Speaker 2: the body and attack it. One of the stories I

208
00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:24,000
Speaker 2: love is about the hagfish, which.

209
00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,000
Speaker 1: People probably I love the hagfish.

210
00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,600
Speaker 2: They're so gross and so slimy, right, and their slime

211
00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,080
Speaker 2: does a number of different things, But it also includes

212
00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:39,480
Speaker 2: licensimes and that when they the license homes are just

213
00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,120
Speaker 2: these amazing attackers, right, So any bacteria or things like that,

214
00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:44,839
Speaker 2: they just go at it, hack it, wack it, and

215
00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,960
Speaker 2: smack it. And I just think that's pretty awesome to

216
00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,840
Speaker 2: look at kind of across the Indu Kingdom, how similar

217
00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:58,360
Speaker 2: adaptations are used, and also how every species has its

218
00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:04,599
Speaker 2: own unique way of attacking these invaders. One of the

219
00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,400
Speaker 2: stories I love to talk about is the ants, because

220
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,439
Speaker 2: ants don't give a lot get a lot of credit, right,

221
00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,880
Speaker 2: I mean, there's little things, but amazingly scientists are studying

222
00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:18,960
Speaker 2: ants in order to better understand our immune system. One

223
00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,400
Speaker 2: of the things that happens, at least to my mind,

224
00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,920
Speaker 2: when I'm understanding immune systems is it's so complex it's

225
00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,600
Speaker 2: hard to hard to visualize, right, But when you think

226
00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:33,480
Speaker 2: about an ant colony as an individual a super organism,

227
00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,160
Speaker 2: you can kind of get a better sense of how

228
00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:42,120
Speaker 2: a human body might work. For example, we've all seen yeah, yeah, right,

229
00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,200
Speaker 2: Like we've all seen an ant hill. We see ants

230
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,640
Speaker 2: go in, right, and if you think about that ant hill,

231
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,760
Speaker 2: if you touch it, you know how they react. So

232
00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,880
Speaker 2: thinking that that ant hill is kind of like our skin,

233
00:13:55,600 --> 00:14:00,440
Speaker 2: the outside surface, Like if we attack it, they're gonna

234
00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,679
Speaker 2: attack us, just like if something breaks our skin barrier,

235
00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:06,520
Speaker 2: our immune system's gonna attack it. But then there are

236
00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:08,840
Speaker 2: the normal places where things go into the ant hill,

237
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,920
Speaker 2: like the openings, you know, the entrance ways. But right

238
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,840
Speaker 2: there the entrance ways to that ant hill are guards,

239
00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,280
Speaker 2: and those guards are gonna attack anything that tries to

240
00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,160
Speaker 2: come in that is not the self, right, just like

241
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,720
Speaker 2: our nose that slim in our nose, it's gonna do

242
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,720
Speaker 2: the same thing, right, And as you go deeper into

243
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,080
Speaker 2: the ant hill, you have more and more protection. What

244
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,320
Speaker 2: was amazing to me is as I researched for this book,

245
00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,880
Speaker 2: I discovered I never thought about the fact that ants

246
00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,000
Speaker 2: are exposed to fungus all the time because they live

247
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:39,920
Speaker 2: in the soil, and fungus lives in the soil, and

248
00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,040
Speaker 2: fungus would just love to like dive into an ant

249
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:48,280
Speaker 2: hill and create an epidemic because one little ant carrying

250
00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,400
Speaker 2: fungus spores into the ant hill. Oh, they could go crazy.

251
00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,120
Speaker 2: But you know, you've got those guards on the doorway

252
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,360
Speaker 2: that are gonna maybe catch those spores. But as the

253
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,920
Speaker 2: ant worker ant goes deeper or into the ant hill,

254
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:06,360
Speaker 2: there's there are other cleaner ants sanitation ants, right, And

255
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:10,640
Speaker 2: so what's fascinating to be is that these ants, these

256
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:15,320
Speaker 2: sanitation ants, remove these fungal spores, but yet don't get

257
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,280
Speaker 2: sick themselves. And I was like how, And so I

258
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,480
Speaker 2: looked into the research and it's just amazing. This guy,

259
00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,120
Speaker 2: Christopher Poull is doing some awesome research with them. One

260
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,400
Speaker 2: of the things that happens in certain ants is they

261
00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,520
Speaker 2: they actually put the spores in their mouths. Wait, leaning

262
00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:33,560
Speaker 2: the ants they're putting the spores in their mouth It

263
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:35,480
Speaker 2: sounds really really like the.

264
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:36,760
Speaker 1: Wrong thing to get dangerous.

265
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, but they have these pockets in their mouth,

266
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,520
Speaker 2: little pockets in their mouths that they stuff the spores

267
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,240
Speaker 2: into and then they carry the spores off into the

268
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:47,120
Speaker 2: garbage basically and get.

269
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,000
Speaker 1: Rid of them and spit it out. Yeah, that's amazing.

270
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,400
Speaker 2: And this story goes deeper and deeper because in this story,

271
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:58,360
Speaker 2: actually if the young, the pupa, the larvae are infected

272
00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:05,280
Speaker 2: by spores, the sanitation ants actually destroy them, which sounds.

273
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,080
Speaker 1: Terrible, right, it's zombie apocalypse rules, you know.

274
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,840
Speaker 2: The zombie absolu And but it's such an analogy to

275
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,600
Speaker 2: our own bodies, where if we have cells that are

276
00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,040
Speaker 2: infected guess what they have to die?

277
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:25,080
Speaker 1: Apoptosis is. It's it's really interesting because the cell death

278
00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,080
Speaker 1: sounds really bad. Oh, cell death, it's the thing that

279
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:33,800
Speaker 1: keeps us alive. We need our cells to die. They

280
00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,720
Speaker 1: can replenish. Obviously. If you have too much cellular death,

281
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,040
Speaker 1: that's a bad thing. But if you have no cellular death,

282
00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,680
Speaker 1: that's actually what cancer basically is. It's when your cell

283
00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,800
Speaker 1: doesn't know how to die. It's your cell loses the ability.

284
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:53,680
Speaker 1: There's a mutation that prevents it from uh from dying

285
00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:59,920
Speaker 1: from this process called apoptosis, and that is really really bad.

286
00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,959
Speaker 1: It's also what protects us from pathogens, because an infected

287
00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:09,199
Speaker 1: cell can be like, oh, this isn't good actually, like

288
00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:15,400
Speaker 1: destroy itself, and even through destroying itself, can can cause

289
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,199
Speaker 1: the virus to break apart, and then that can be

290
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,679
Speaker 1: picked up by other cells, which go, oh, this is

291
00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,040
Speaker 1: an interesting thing to learn from and bring those little

292
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,800
Speaker 1: those little antigens, the parts of the virus that are

293
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,080
Speaker 1: that can be learned from. And so yeah, it's really

294
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:35,160
Speaker 1: interesting how like the the immune system does attack our

295
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:39,919
Speaker 1: own bodies sometimes and that's both important in life saving

296
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,800
Speaker 1: and can also cause a lot of problems, right like,

297
00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:48,080
Speaker 1: if if our immune system attacks our own cells too strongly,

298
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,280
Speaker 1: that can actually kill us. And if they don't attack

299
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,440
Speaker 1: cells strongly enough, it's too weak of an immune response,

300
00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,959
Speaker 1: and so then the virus can actually directly harm our

301
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,640
Speaker 1: cells and go and be and replicate unabated. But yeah,

302
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:09,320
Speaker 1: that bounds. I love the connection to the ants because

303
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:14,399
Speaker 1: you see these kind of very complex colony behaviors. Is

304
00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,199
Speaker 1: very much like how the immune system works because with ants,

305
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,240
Speaker 1: you have a hierarchy. It's use sociality, right, Like, so

306
00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:26,320
Speaker 1: you have very specific roles that each of the ants has,

307
00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,760
Speaker 1: and you have like obviously the queen ants, which are

308
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,520
Speaker 1: the ones that are the only ones that can reproduce generally,

309
00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,320
Speaker 1: but you also have different roles for the ants and something.

310
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,679
Speaker 1: It can also be a different role based on the

311
00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,240
Speaker 1: time and the ants life or the same thing with bees,

312
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:46,000
Speaker 1: right like a bees life cycle, their role might change

313
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,840
Speaker 1: as it gets older. And so you see a very

314
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,640
Speaker 1: similar thing in the immune system where you have these

315
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:56,080
Speaker 1: immune cells and they have these It's kind of like

316
00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,439
Speaker 1: a use social system within our own bodies. Because you

317
00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:04,119
Speaker 1: have this hierarchical system, you have these very specific roles

318
00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,000
Speaker 1: that each of the cells play and these rules they

319
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:11,080
Speaker 1: have to play by, and it's really interesting because we

320
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,800
Speaker 1: have to have to be a unified organism. There has

321
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:20,760
Speaker 1: to be that sacrifice in order to help the larger system, right,

322
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,280
Speaker 1: the entire ant colony or the entire human to function.

323
00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,199
Speaker 1: And without that kind of sacrifice of these cells, we

324
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,760
Speaker 1: couldn't function as an entire organism, which I think is

325
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:32,560
Speaker 1: so interesting.

326
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. Right. And the fact, one of the other things

327
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,760
Speaker 2: that I found interesting about the story of about the

328
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,960
Speaker 2: ants is that the worker ants basically are inoculating themselves

329
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:49,280
Speaker 2: against the disease. Those interesting. Yeah, So if they're exposed

330
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:54,520
Speaker 2: to a small amount scores, which they do, as you know,

331
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:59,880
Speaker 2: workers bring in spores from the environment than those workers

332
00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,359
Speaker 2: and then those immune sorry, those sanitary ants, sanitization ants

333
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:06,280
Speaker 2: are immune.

334
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:07,760
Speaker 1: They develop immunity. That's incredible.

335
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,479
Speaker 2: Yeah. Again, it's just a great analogy because we can

336
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:15,280
Speaker 2: visualize that ant moving here and there and everywhere, and

337
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:19,760
Speaker 2: in fact, in our body and all animals, you know,

338
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:25,360
Speaker 2: the cells are kind of like those little ant. Can

339
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,560
Speaker 2: I go back to something you mentioned absolutely, and that

340
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:33,679
Speaker 2: is you mentioned how our immune systems sometimes kind of

341
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:38,440
Speaker 2: can react and overreact and how that affects our body,

342
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,959
Speaker 2: you know, speaking specifically about viruses, because that's something that

343
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,199
Speaker 2: we're all very interested in these days. Yeah, you know,

344
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:51,720
Speaker 2: the symptoms really are just our body reacting and overreacting.

345
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,440
Speaker 2: And that reminds me of the story of the bats,

346
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,320
Speaker 2: which just blows my mind.

347
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:01,040
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. I love bats, and I let there well,

348
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,040
Speaker 1: I don't want to interrupt you, but I just they're

349
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,320
Speaker 1: so interesting to me, and especially when it comes to immunity,

350
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,680
Speaker 1: because they have such big requirements in terms of energy

351
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,440
Speaker 1: for flying. A mammal that can fly, it's it's an

352
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:20,199
Speaker 1: incredible feat. It's this warm blooded, thermal regulating animal that

353
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:26,760
Speaker 1: can also fly, and it has a relatively short evolutionary

354
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,960
Speaker 1: history of flight when you compare it to say, like insects,

355
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 1: and so it's really really interesting. And the pressures, the

356
00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:40,119
Speaker 1: metabolic and energy pressures on these bats are incredible, and

357
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 1: so they have really interesting immune systems. And anyways, now

358
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 1: I'm gonna let you you tell your story.

359
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,119
Speaker 2: No, that's great. I love it because one of the

360
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 2: things about bats is there's still so many questions about them, right,

361
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 2: like this idea that they can fly, but yet to

362
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,120
Speaker 2: do that requires this huge metabolic rate. How do they

363
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,160
Speaker 2: survive that? Because if we tried to do that, our

364
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,240
Speaker 2: body would crash in so many ways. Yeah, number one,

365
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,399
Speaker 2: because we'd be producing so much waste that our immune

366
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 2: system would be going after that waste and and it

367
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:13,959
Speaker 2: would just be it would be it would be a

368
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:18,879
Speaker 2: storm of our immune system. Right. So scientists are really

369
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,399
Speaker 2: curious about how bads actually survive. I mean most people

370
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 2: have heard that, you know, bats can carry many many

371
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 2: viruses and that we can't in fact acquire viruses from

372
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,440
Speaker 2: bats and vice versa. But you know, how is that?

373
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 2: How can they survive? I mean, there's so many bad species,

374
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,680
Speaker 2: there's bats across the entire world except for Antarctica, and

375
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 2: how can they be surviving so many viruses? And come

376
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,280
Speaker 2: find out one of the one of the things is

377
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:54,360
Speaker 2: their innate immune system is strong, so strong that that

378
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,879
Speaker 2: may be driving the evolution of viruses, right because their bodies.

379
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,640
Speaker 2: In order for a virus to successfully infect that, it's

380
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,639
Speaker 2: got to be pretty amazing. The interesting story that I

381
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 2: discovered as I was doing research for this book is

382
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:14,920
Speaker 2: that the innate While the innate immune system, the first

383
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 2: immune system basically is so strong, the secondary or the

384
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,680
Speaker 2: adaptive required depending on who you're talking to, that immune

385
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,119
Speaker 2: system basically says, guess what, virus, if you made it

386
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 2: past that first line? Okay, so what if the immune

387
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:37,440
Speaker 2: system decides to not react? And I'm saying this anthropomorphically obviously,

388
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 2: but if the immune system isn't reacting in this storm,

389
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 2: the symptoms aren't there, right, And in order to figure

390
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:53,360
Speaker 2: that out. The work that went into that was amazing

391
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 2: because you had to actually look at what was happening

392
00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,959
Speaker 2: on a cellular level to create that storm. This inflammation

393
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,439
Speaker 2: they call it the inflammazone And basically what's happening is,

394
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 2: in comparison to other mammals, bats turned down like a dial,

395
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 2: they turn down or they dial down that inflammation rate.

396
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 2: And when you do that, you don't have the information.

397
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,399
Speaker 2: When you don't have the information, therefore you don't have

398
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 2: the symptoms. Basically, they're kind of saying them, Oh, wait,

399
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 2: you're really hurting me, virus, Why don't I just let

400
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 2: you be? Like, we don't have to fight, which I

401
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 2: think is a really cool message just to think about. Right,

402
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 2: if you're not really killing me, Yeah, you know, we

403
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,400
Speaker 2: can deal, we can survive. Yeah, we can coexist, which

404
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 2: is powerful.

405
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, you do talk about

406
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 1: this a bit in Sick, which again I love because

407
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 1: this is so cool to like introduce these concepts of

408
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,719
Speaker 1: like the fact that we do have some viral DNA

409
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: still with us, right, Like viruses don't always viruses in

410
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: bacteria especially like are not always dangerous. They can actually

411
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 1: start to incorporate themselves that there's like a there can

412
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 1: be like a mutualistic symbiosis between animals and bacteria and

413
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: even viruses, And it's so cool. And I mean, the

414
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: other thing with bats is, like I think it's it's

415
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 1: a really important thing for people to understand that the

416
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: reason that bats can have these these viruses that can

417
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: be dangerous for humans is not because they're dirty. They're

418
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: actually very hygienic, uh, they but the fact that they

419
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 1: have these this very different kind of immune system, this

420
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 1: immune system that has adapted differently from urts. So like

421
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,199
Speaker 1: if they when they encounter a virus, right and they

422
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: don't have they have successfully whittled down the viral load

423
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 1: because of their incredible innate immune system, and then they

424
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 1: don't have as strong of an inflammatory response, so then

425
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 1: they survive. When we're introduced to that same virus, our

426
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,679
Speaker 1: innate response, our adaptive response is going to be much stronger,

427
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: and so we can actually even though without our adaptive

428
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 1: immune system we wouldn't get very far because we wouldn't

429
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: be able to destroy viruses and pathogens that could replicate

430
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: inside of us. It also means that we can have

431
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: this massive inflammatory response, a cytokine storm, which is essentially

432
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 1: like a game of dominoes gone wrong inside of your

433
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:39,120
Speaker 1: immune system, and it can be really damaging. So it's

434
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: like the same immune response that can save your life, right,

435
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 1: like a fever which is killing off a bacteria or

436
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 1: virus which can save your life, can also kill you.

437
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 1: But back to the concept of these viruses not always

438
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 1: being bad for us, Like the the fact that we

439
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: have like in our DNA now like from you know,

440
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: millions of years ago, like viral DNA that has inserted

441
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: itself into our DNA and then it just works out

442
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: is incredible to me.

443
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, we think of that, you know, we have this

444
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 2: bias that viruses are bad. Well, guess what, So much

445
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 2: of our DNA is viral, which I had no idea

446
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: how that happened, right, I didn't understand the entire concept

447
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 2: of retroviruses, which okay, can we we can dive deeply

448
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 2: into this I didn't get to let's do it. There's

449
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 2: an entire chapter that didn't make it into this book

450
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 2: because it was so complex, but it just am so

451
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:47,120
Speaker 2: fascinated by it. Right, So, retroviruses, all viruses, we most

452
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 2: of us know that the virus has to enter the

453
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 2: cell of the host to be replicated, right, but retroviruses

454
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 2: go deeper than that. So once they enter the cell

455
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 2: and their DNA is their their genetic material I should say,

456
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 2: is replicated, then that genetic material actually enters the cell's nucleus,

457
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 2: which is like whoa who, Well, like that's the safe house,

458
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 2: you know, like the cell is one thing. But entering

459
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 2: the nucleus, where like are the genetic material of the

460
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 2: host exists, You're like entering the vault. And then they

461
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 2: that retroviral genetic material inserts itself into the host's genetic material,

462
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 2: which is like so mind blowing that that can actually happen.

463
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 2: But if you think about it again, it's this concept

464
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 2: that like, do we have to be a war? We're

465
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 2: two there are two organisms here, and you can either

466
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 2: be a war and one can win and the other

467
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 2: can lose or you could coexist. And an amazing way

468
00:28:53,720 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 2: that's happened. And every placental mammal, every placental mammal, so

469
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: we think of that as you know us and other

470
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 2: large organizers, but we all have retroviral DNA in us

471
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: that allows us to give live birth.

472
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: It's amazing, amazed.

473
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 2: Okay, I have to tell this story about these kittens

474
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 2: that came into my life as I was doing this research.

475
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 2: There was a cat that got hit by a car

476
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 2: and long story short, she was pregnant and she was

477
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 2: not gonna make it, but she was doing well enough

478
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 2: that she crawled up in my lap and gave birth

479
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 2: to kittens. Wow, they were amazing. Well, I had never

480
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 2: observed that, and I had been doing this research about placenta,

481
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 2: so I got very interested in the placenta and how

482
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 2: this happened. Turns out, you know, and a zygod an

483
00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 2: embryo is is going to be considered non self right right, Yes,

484
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 2: an outside invader inside the mother. The question comes now

485
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 2: in the world does a mother's body accept this invader

486
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 2: in because they shouldn't. Like the immune system from the

487
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: mother should attack this invader and kick it out well,

488
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 2: who's really good at checking the immune system viruses. In

489
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 2: order for a virus to enter our cell, it has

490
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 2: to chrick us. It has to have that message on

491
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 2: its surface, that protein that says, wait, wait, I'm part

492
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 2: of you. It's okay, don't worry about me. I'm just

493
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 2: along here.

494
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: Fake the fake ID that sells carry around because we

495
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: have these, we have essentially tiny cops inside of our

496
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: bodies called natural kill our cells that will go around

497
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: checking everyone's passport, checking everyone's papers. It's a little bit

498
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: you know, it's a little authoritarian inside our bodies sometimes.

499
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: And so a lot of viruses have created this like

500
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 1: basically a fake ID to show the natural killerself like

501
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: I'm legit. But yeah, that that can be applied to

502
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 1: protecting our own offspring is amazing.

503
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 2: Right. So if that if that future offspring didn't have

504
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 2: that retroviral genetic material that therefore programmed the proteins on

505
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 2: its surface to tell the mother, hey it's okay, let

506
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 2: me in the placenta, would never happen, right, The attachment

507
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 2: would never happen. And so every single one of us

508
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 2: we should be thanking the viruses right because we were born.

509
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 2: It's just amazing and a phenomenal thing. Kind of on

510
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 2: a little another aside, but it's amazing. Is there's there

511
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 2: are some lizards that do this as well. Wait, lizards,

512
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 2: Lizards are not supposed to have licentius, but yet they

513
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 2: did some of them down right, It's because this retroviral

514
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 2: invasion has happened so many times across times.

515
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's amazing. Yeah, it's so it's I mean,

516
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: it's the same. I think that people are more familiar

517
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: with this concept when it comes to bacteria, right, Like,

518
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: we've got good bacteria and bad bacteria. Uh, and a

519
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 1: lot of it is not even just good or bad bacteria,

520
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 1: but the balance of bacteria, right Like, it's a specific

521
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: balance of which bacteria you have and your own immune system.

522
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: Right for some people, bacteria that's generally good and fine

523
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: can be bad for someone else because their immune system

524
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: reacts too strongly to it. So there are all these

525
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: different factors that come into play. But that's the same

526
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 1: thing with like viruses, right like most I mean, it's

527
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: true that most times you catch some kind of virus,

528
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: right like a cold or a flu, it's not good

529
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: for you. It's not good necessarily good to get sick.

530
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes it's it's just a fact of life

531
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: that you're going to get sick. Uh. And some times

532
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 1: the timing of when you get sick can be really important,

533
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: right Like, if you get certain viruses, you absolutely do

534
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 1: not want to get as an infant because your immune

535
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: system's too weak. But some if you do get as

536
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: an infant, they're less serious when you're an adult. Now

537
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 1: we have vaccines which make it a lot safer to

538
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: introduce viral information to infants and to adults without us

539
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: having to go through the risks of infection. But it's

540
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: really interesting to see the way that you know, the

541
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 1: that like viruses, like being introduced to a virus isn't

542
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,719
Speaker 1: always bad. Sometimes it depends on the timing of the virus.

543
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: And then sometimes there can be a virus that actually

544
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: aids in our evolution. But then again, I'm not suggesting

545
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 1: that you go out and like French kiss someone who

546
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: has COVID or the flu, because most times, most times

547
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: that we encounter viruses, it's not necessarily going to be

548
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: a good thing. It might not hurt us that badly,

549
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: but it's certainly not gonna, you know, be the next

550
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: stage in human evolution. But if that happens enough, like

551
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: I think just the scale of evolution of millions of

552
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 1: years of this happening, you know, once in a while

553
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 1: there will actually be a useful mutation caused by this

554
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 1: viral DNA, which again, it's it's really interesting when like

555
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: that RNA and DNA essentially can like float around and

556
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:34,320
Speaker 1: then just be absorbed into the cell and then whoop,

557
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: now it's part of our DNA. It's so weird. That

558
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like that should be how it works, right,

559
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 1: that there can be free floating uh, you know, RNA

560
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: or DNA that we can actually incorporate into our own

561
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: genome and then pass on through our reproductive cells. That

562
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 1: seems like that should not work, but it does, and

563
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: that's probably I mean, that's like we're getting into sort

564
00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: of the origin of life, right like where you have

565
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: these free floating strands of proteins that one you know,

566
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 1: glob absorbs another glob and now it's become a more

567
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: complex glob that has proteins that can start to actually

568
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 1: construct new proteins, which is, you know, so hard for

569
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,760
Speaker 1: me to wrap my head around how that started.

570
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 2: But and so hard for all of us, and I

571
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 2: think science in general were hesitant to accept ideas, which

572
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 2: is awesome, right, That's what makes science unique in that

573
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 2: we consider new hypotheses and theories, but we have to

574
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 2: have lots of evidence. And one of the really cool

575
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 2: stories about that, of course, is our own mitochondria. This

576
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,439
Speaker 2: story started a very long time ago where people started wondering, weight,

577
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 2: what's up with this mitochondria? The powerhouse, right, the cells

578
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 2: like ourselves, didn't function without them because they're what converts

579
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 2: the sugar into energy. But they're weirdos. They don't seem

580
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,760
Speaker 2: to belong in a cell. And for the long time,

581
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 2: some scientists were very curious about this and saying, wait,

582
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 2: there's something different, and other folks were like, no, no, no, no,

583
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 2: you're what are you talking about? That's weird, you know.

584
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 2: And for a long time, the the science behind my

585
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 2: country where they came from, was ignored. But now we

586
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 2: understand that they are very different. The mitochondria as an organelle,

587
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 2: and you know, the theory is that they came from microbes.

588
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 2: So if we had never incorporated this microbe, this other

589
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 2: you know, into a cell, the complex cells with the

590
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 2: U carry outs would never have evolved, which just so

591
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 2: mind blowing. I mean, the whole idea of good versus

592
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 2: bad is a thing, you know, right, like the story

593
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 2: of the Turkey vultures. We talk about vultures because they

594
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 2: are awesome.

595
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 1: I mean I love them so yes, absolutely.

596
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 2: They're amazing. I mean, like they stick their head in

597
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 2: the grossest nest, the stuff, which we know is full

598
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 2: of bacteria. And if we think about sticking our head

599
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 2: into a dead body and eating it, of course we

600
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 2: think everything in there, all that bacteria that's rotting it,

601
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:14,720
Speaker 2: it's got to be awful. But yet they don't get sick, right,

602
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 2: they don't. They survive this stuff and they don't have

603
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:23,320
Speaker 2: any food poisoning and wow. And so a scientist decided

604
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 2: to investigate that, like he's like, we've got to understand

605
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 2: what's going into their body. And so he took a

606
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 2: bunch of dead vultures. Sadly, there were a number of

607
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 2: vultures that he swabbed their faces and their necks, and

608
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 2: there he found like over seven hundred different bacterial species

609
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 2: on them. Wait seven hundred can you imagine? And some

610
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 2: of those were like really really intense. And he's like, okay,

611
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 2: so what's going in their mouths, you know, is whatever's

612
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 2: on their face and lo and behold when he looks

613
00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 2: in their guts, there's about seventy over just over set species.

614
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:06,240
Speaker 2: Like that's huge, and so I how did that happen?

615
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 2: You know? And what's going on that we don't know? Right?

616
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 2: That is such new science. We don't know. But what's

617
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 2: intriguing to think about is the ones that are in

618
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 2: the guts are the ones that we would freak out

619
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 2: if they were in our guts. Like there's flesh eating

620
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 2: bacteria in there, there's ecola, there's this stuff. We're like,

621
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 2: whoa get away from us? Right, But yet they're surviving

622
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 2: and thriving in there, and we would assume that that's terrible,

623
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 2: but maybe not, you know, maybe they're actually supporting each other.

624
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, now, I mean that is what is so interesting, right, Like,

625
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 1: you can have these very complex symbiotic relationships, and symbiosis

626
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,839
Speaker 1: is not always good and it's not always bad, right Like,

627
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: Symbiosis just describes a close uh, basically a ballet between

628
00:38:55,480 --> 00:39:00,320
Speaker 1: two species. It could be a parasite and a ghost,

629
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: or it could be a mutualistic relationship. And sometimes these

630
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: relationships can like change over time, right, something that was

631
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 1: once like maybe at some point in the vulture's evolutionary

632
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: history these bacteria did harm them, and then over time

633
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: they evolved to coexist in a way where the bacteria

634
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 1: were able to survive, but so was the vulture. And

635
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: I mean it's so interesting because I mean, I do

636
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 1: I love vultures, and I love how like all of

637
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 1: the things that we see about them that seems to

638
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,320
Speaker 1: make them gross, right, Like they have these bald heads

639
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, that's that's gross looking. That's for hygiene.

640
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 1: That's so blood and stuff doesn't get stuck to their feathers.

641
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: And then they poop on themselves. They poop on their

642
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: legs and for us that'd be like the most gross

643
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: thing you could do, But that's also for hygiene. They

644
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 1: have this very like they like bird poop in general

645
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: is a combination of urine and feces typically, and so

646
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: like the turepoop has this very it's very acidic, and

647
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 1: so it actually cleans their legs. And so it's like

648
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: these things that we would consider disgusting about them, right

649
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: Like they're eating they're eating a corpse. It's usually a

650
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:16,240
Speaker 1: rotting cadaver, or it's it's really disgusting. Well, they're actually

651
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 1: taking a lot of like bacteria and nasty things out

652
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: of the environment and then converting it into food, containing

653
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: it and expelling it in a way that is less

654
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: harmful to other animals, to other to the environment. So

655
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, these are actually amazing, Like we

656
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 1: can think of them as like the sanitation experts of

657
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: the animal kingdom. So everything that seems gross about them

658
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:49,399
Speaker 1: to us is actually this process of taking these bad

659
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 1: things and then turning it into a process that like

660
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 1: works for them and then is helpful for preventing the

661
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: spread of disease and other animals.

662
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 2: We should be thinking them every.

663
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: Day, I personally do.

664
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 2: I realized I misspoke. When Gary the scientist Gary Graves

665
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 2: studied the vultures, he found over five hundred species on

666
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 2: their heads. We get so many. You know, what we

667
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 2: keep kind of coming back to is this idea of

668
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 2: evolution and you know, microbes and germs and all of

669
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,839
Speaker 2: those things that we see is so bad. They're bad

670
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 2: for individuals, yes, but for populations it's different, you know, Yeah,

671
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 2: And so it's interesting to you know, our perspective as

672
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,359
Speaker 2: individuals is that these things are bad because they can

673
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,760
Speaker 2: kill individuals. But if we look in the evolutionary scope,

674
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 2: that's different, right in terms of the diversity that we

675
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 2: have on the planet. They've driven this evolution, and that's

676
00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 2: just a mind boggling idea.

677
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, And without that diversity, I mean, what's this

678
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: is what's interesting, right, is because we have all sorts

679
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 1: of different selective pressures, from the very small like bacteria

680
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 1: and viruses, to the very large like a meteor hitting

681
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 1: the earth and changing the climate. And we can't like,

682
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: like the the fact that like bacteria and viruses have

683
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 1: driven this diversification of species, right, Like you know, you

684
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: would think like, well, so what right, it causes a

685
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 1: lot of suffering. So it's not they're not really good

686
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 1: to have. But because you have such a diversity of species,

687
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 1: then life can survive things like the climate suddenly changing.

688
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: A metea is striking their earth and causing because now

689
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 1: you have more of a like a genetic library for

690
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 1: these different animals. And so you're going to have the

691
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: mass extinction of a lot of animals, but you're going

692
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 1: to have just enough that have the ability to survive this.

693
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 1: And so much of that is driven by microbes, by

694
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: things that are things that are harmful and bad but

695
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: have driven this diversification of species that they actually are

696
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 1: able to survive, you know, devastating events. Maybe not on

697
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: the individual level, which is sad for the individual of course,

698
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: but in terms of like just life on Earth, like,

699
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:24,879
Speaker 1: viruses and bacteria are not necessarily bad for life on

700
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: earth like for individual lives. Yes, and so again, keep

701
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 1: washing your hands, keep getting vaccinated. I'm not saying on

702
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 1: an individual level it's good for us to get walloped

703
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 1: by the flu or whatever. But yeah, in terms of

704
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:44,879
Speaker 1: just general life on Earth, these relationships that we have

705
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: with with pathogens is actually really complex and it's not.

706
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:55,760
Speaker 2: All bad exactly. And there's the whole, the whole idea

707
00:43:55,800 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 2: that we've lumped all microbes into this bad category. You know,

708
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 2: it's very easy for us too, because we can't see them,

709
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 2: and when we can't see them, we don't understand them.

710
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 2: And that's why I'm so passionate about learning and teaching

711
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 2: about this because the more we know, Wow, it opens

712
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 2: our eyes to so many things that we didn't understand.

713
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 2: This complexity that's there, These microbes that are in our

714
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,760
Speaker 2: bodies that we wouldn't survive without you know. That's nest.

715
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 2: It's mind blowing.

716
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: It's something you can't even if you can't directly see it,

717
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 1: it's something you can feel. If you've ever had a

718
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:39,280
Speaker 1: bad stomach flu, which I have had recently, and essentially

719
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 1: what happens with the stomach flu is your body is

720
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 1: like hits the eject button because something is in there

721
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: that's that's bad. Sometimes it's a virus, sometimes it's food poisoning,

722
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 1: and so your body is like emergency, We've got to evacuate.

723
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 1: We've got to get rid of this. So you're gonna

724
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 1: vomit and you're gonna have diarrhea. Uh. And so that's

725
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: why it's I mean, the number one thing when you

726
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: have a stomach flu or food poisoning is hydration because

727
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 1: like you're losing a lot of fluid food, you don't

728
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,879
Speaker 1: have to worry about as much. You will you will

729
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: be hungry when you're hungry, it's going to take a

730
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,439
Speaker 1: little while. But yeah, so you should hydrate. But your

731
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 1: your body is doing something important. It is it is

732
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 1: getting rid of something that it thinks is really dangerous

733
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: and could cut and could really severely hurt you. Is

734
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: it always right? Maybe not, but it's it's doing the

735
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: best job it can in terms of gauging. Okay, when

736
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: do we need to just eject everything? But what happens

737
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 1: is you actually lose like through that injection, Like after that,

738
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 1: you might find that sometimes you get more kind of

739
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,439
Speaker 1: you feel kind of yucky a while after, like after

740
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 1: you're done with the stomach flu, after you're done with

741
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,760
Speaker 1: the food poisoning, you still kind of maybe get maybe

742
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: some like indigestion or some stomach issues. And it's like, well,

743
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 1: because you flushed out a lot of good bacteria as well,

744
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: and which is why you know, the immune response has

745
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: to be so delicate and not always go off all

746
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 1: the time whenever you are infected with them, you know,

747
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 1: a tiny pathogen like because that that flushing out, you

748
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 1: are flushing out also like good bacteria. So it's you know,

749
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 1: it's good to like uh sort of uh try to

750
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 1: you know, once you start to rehydrate and eat food

751
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 1: and stuff and naturally, your your gut floora will repopulate.

752
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: So it's not something you have to panic about or

753
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 1: anything like that. But it is really interesting and it's

754
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 1: also it's so interesting these there are things in medicine

755
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 1: where we recognize right the power of this gut bacteria.

756
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 1: So we have things like fecal transplants, which sounds horrifying,

757
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: sounds sounds not like something that you would want to

758
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 1: have happened, but it is apparently something that can be

759
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 1: really important in terms of helping repopulate someone's gut with

760
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:09,879
Speaker 1: good bacteria, with something that can actually help them help

761
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: a person like when you digest food. It can also

762
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 1: protect you from other bacteria because bacteria, like any organism,

763
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,279
Speaker 1: are in competition with each other. So if you have

764
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 1: a less harmful bacteria that is populating your gut, it

765
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 1: will try to compete with and interfere with bacteria that

766
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,760
Speaker 1: might make you sick. So yeah, like bacteria is often

767
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: our friend, it's just sometimes when it isn't, it's really noticeable.

768
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:40,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's nasty discussing. Yeah, fecal transplants are just amazing.

769
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 2: I just I can hardly believe that that works, but

770
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 2: it does. And once I met some folks who have

771
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 2: had fecal transplants and successfully, you know, cure m it's

772
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:59,919
Speaker 2: just amazing what they what they can do. So when

773
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 2: one of the things that amazes me is that even

774
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 2: bacteria that we see as the bad guys like staphylococcus, right,

775
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 2: which can be really a huge problem. But staff itself

776
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 2: is infected. Some staff can exist on us in a

777
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:23,240
Speaker 2: very healthy way, and other staff that have has genetic

778
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 2: material that's we're not really sure how it gets in there,

779
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,240
Speaker 2: but it has. It has additional genetic material from another

780
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 2: organism that in fact is like it in self is infected.

781
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 2: So we don't think about the fact that that all

782
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 2: of these microupes are in their own world dealing with

783
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 2: infections of themselves just wind.

784
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 1: Blowing when you zoom out more like it's easier to

785
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 1: comprehend that where when you have a mosquito, Mosquitoes do

786
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 1: not make us sick, right, Mosquitoes are would actually be

787
00:48:54,880 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 1: relatively harmless. They are parasites, but they would if if

788
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:09,320
Speaker 1: not for pathogens that actually infect the mosquitoes. Mosquitoes themselves

789
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 1: would be pretty harmless to like a human, but because

790
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 1: they themselves can be infected with with pathogens with like

791
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 1: something that can actually be passed on to us, and

792
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 1: in fact that it's the whole reason that they will

793
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: infect the the the mosquito. The mosquito can then pass

794
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 1: something along to us and so something that we see

795
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 1: right like as this mosquito is like hurting us, it's like, well,

796
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 1: it's not really the mosquito itself, it's whatever has hitched

797
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 1: a ride on the mosquito. And then but then when

798
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: you of course, like you go and sort of like

799
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 1: all the evolutionary pressures and the sorts of like symbiotic

800
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 1: relationships that affect like like organisms, you know, macro organisms,

801
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 1: are those same things are happening on a microscopic level.

802
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 1: Like that is not my I don't talk about it

803
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:03,320
Speaker 1: as much because it is not sort of my area

804
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 1: of expertise, but it is still really really interesting.

805
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,320
Speaker 2: It is mind blowing. I came across a study of ticks,

806
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 2: same concept, where a tick doesn't ask to be infected

807
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 2: by lime disease. Right, that's not something they chose, right,

808
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 2: they are infected. There's an amazing study of a lizard

809
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 2: out in the western United States. Who if an infected

810
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 2: tick bites this lizard. We don't understand everything that's going

811
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,760
Speaker 2: on here, but the tick when it leaves the lizard

812
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 2: no longer has carries lime disease.

813
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:42,399
Speaker 1: Oh that's so interesting.

814
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 2: So amazing, Right, So something's happening when the blood from

815
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 2: the lizard enters the foregut of the tick that's affecting

816
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 2: that disease causing microbe. Just mind blowing to think about it.

817
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 2: You know, we think of ticks they're terrible, awful, but

818
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 2: just like mosquitoes, they and of themselves don't cause that

819
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 2: much damage.

820
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, but they are too convenient of a

821
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:18,240
Speaker 1: little taxi, uh for like they like mosquitoes, ticks, fleas, rats,

822
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 1: you know, all these these little animals that we think

823
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:23,320
Speaker 1: of as you know, gross, like you know, plague bearing animals.

824
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 1: It's just because they're little taxis, right Like, they get

825
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 1: around a lot. They're easy to hitch your right on,

826
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:31,360
Speaker 1: and you know, I mean it's like a flea hitching

827
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 1: your right on a rat. But then you know the

828
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 1: the bubonic plague hitching your right on the flea. It's

829
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:43,359
Speaker 1: it's these these other intermediary organisms have no idea that

830
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 1: they are little cab drivers for disease. And it's not

831
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 1: really their fault. Uh So it's I mean, it's not

832
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 1: even the disease's fault when you get down to it.

833
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 1: But you know, it's just it it is really interesting.

834
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 1: Before we go, I guess I just wanted to circle

835
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 1: back to kind of the initial question that we talked about, like,

836
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 1: why do you think so called gross stuff is so

837
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 1: fascinating to people?

838
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 2: Right?

839
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 1: Because I certainly find it fascinating. I have never grown

840
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 1: out of finding poop and puke and mucus to be

841
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:21,839
Speaker 1: really interesting. Now I don't want to necessarily see it

842
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 1: much in real life, right, Like, if I step on

843
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: dog poop, I'm not like, well, this is great. But

844
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 1: in terms of being interested in stories about it, being

845
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:33,399
Speaker 1: interested in the science of it, what do you think

846
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: is so compelling about it that kids and adults, even

847
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 1: adults who don't want to admit it, finds so interesting.

848
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 2: I think it's the questions, because I think questions are

849
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 2: or and or curiosity all to linked together. That's what

850
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 2: drives learning, and the human mind wants to learn, right,

851
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 2: We're innately driven to learn and learn and learn. And

852
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 2: when we find something such as poop or blood or

853
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 2: something like that that society says, oh, no, gross, don't

854
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 2: look at that, don't pay attention to it, We're like, wait,

855
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 2: what you know? I want to know more? And the

856
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 2: first question is why why am I not supposed to

857
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 2: look at that? Right? It's a. It's a kind of

858
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 2: a taboo subject, but why, And then that just drives

859
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:19,799
Speaker 2: us to learn more and more the human mind. It's

860
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 2: an amazing thing when we ask those questions, when we

861
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 2: look a little closer, that's when we discover all of

862
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 2: this that we've been talking about today was all driven

863
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 2: by questions. Somebody's question about something weird that happened, that

864
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 2: they observed, and they dug a little deeper, and in

865
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:38,399
Speaker 2: the end, our minds get blown again and again as

866
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 2: we look at the animal kingdom right as we discover

867
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 2: these little bits and pieces. And what I'm so fascinated

868
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 2: with is the fact that every single one of us

869
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 2: can do that every day. All we have to do

870
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 2: is look and start asking questions.

871
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Well, thank you so much for coming on. Where

872
00:53:56,080 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 1: can people find your book? What's it called? And I

873
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:04,239
Speaker 1: think that it's a really fun book. I think it's

874
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 1: especially good for older kids. But look, I read it,

875
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:14,479
Speaker 1: I'm an adult and I still enjoyed it. So where

876
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:15,479
Speaker 1: can people get your book?

877
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 2: Well? First, thanks for that. I'm honored that you read

878
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 2: it and enjoyed it so much. This book is called

879
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 2: Sick the Twist and turns behind animal germs and you

880
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:29,720
Speaker 2: can find it online bookstores. It will not be available

881
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 2: until February twentieth, and it's also available if you want

882
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 2: to look at any of my books at Heather L.

883
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 2: Montgomery dot com.

884
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, and can you pre order it or is it?

885
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 2: Yes, it can be pre ordered any online booksseller.

886
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 1: Fantastic. I have so much respect for these kinds of

887
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 1: books and science education because I think it's so important

888
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 1: to help drive sort of what kids are interested in.

889
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:59,799
Speaker 1: And if kids are interested in gross stuff, and it's like, well,

890
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:03,040
Speaker 1: maybe we should maybe we should pay attention to that

891
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 1: and respect that rather than you know, seeing that as

892
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 1: not an appropriate thing. So thank you so much again

893
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:14,239
Speaker 1: for coming on today, and thank you to the listeners

894
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:17,320
Speaker 1: for listening to the show. A happy new year everyone.

895
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: I'm so excited about a whole new year of podcasting.

896
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 1: And if you are enjoying the show and you leave

897
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,799
Speaker 1: a rating or review, I deeply appreciate it. I read

898
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 1: all of your reviews, every single one. Print them all out,

899
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 1: make a book, read it every night to myself. And

900
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 1: thank you to the Space Classics for their super awesome song.

901
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 1: Exolumina Creature Feature is a production of iHeartRadio. For more

902
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 1: podcasts like the one you just heard, Visit Day, I

903
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:51,320
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, app Apple Podcast, or Hey guess what wherever

904
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. I am not your mother.

905
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:57,440
Speaker 1: I cannot tell you what to do, how you decide

906
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:00,920
Speaker 1: to live your life. I will see you next Wednesday.

907
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 2: M hmm