WEBVTT - Loose Ends [12] 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:03.400 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:07.280 those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:11.400 and do not represent those of iHeartMedia, Tenderfoot TV, or 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:15.680 their employees. This podcast also contains subject matter which may 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:19.520 not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:25.120 It's October twenty twenty two. While walking down the street, 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:29.400 I received a text message about some breaking news. The 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:33.120 Belgian Minister of Justice has just announced DNA comparisons with 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:36.760 the true file. But this request isn't about any of 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:40.120 the victims that we've been discussing. It's for a different case, 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:44.440 the nineteen ninety three disappearance of a Dutch college. 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:48.840 Student oh Piba la police i le juste. 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:54.480 Ma true with the Native Lance student Tanya krun Moko Schlacht. 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:58.800 I found the warning. I found ninety two agistolets. 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:02.520 And eighteen year old Tiny Groon disappeared during introduction week 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:06.080 at Mastrich University in Holland, close to the Belgian border. 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:12.360 Alice is marked a true implicated in the disappearance of 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:16.039 a Dutch student in nineteen ninety three. The Dutch authorities 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:20.560 are studying this question very seriously. The young woman Tanya Groon, 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:24.120 disappeared in Mastricht, close to the Belgian border, in nineteen 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:28.600 ninety three. Dutch authorities are requesting evidence from Belgian authorities 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:29.880 related to this affair. 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:34.520 Her case has gone unsolved for nearly thirty years, but 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:39.080 it bears striking similarities to some of Dtruz's victims. Could 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:41.800 this renewed interest in DNA from the d True affair 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:44.480 open the door to more victims and more accomplices. 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:58.640 A psychopaths is somebody who understands emotions. 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:01.400 And I told them it is a very exceptional that 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:04.640 somebody abducts two children at the same time. 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:07.600 To have been the yen of it in nineteen eighty six, 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:10.880 but my gods, it was just a beginning. 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:15.080 I think Belgium was a paralyzed for perverts in those days. 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:29.360 Welcome to la monstre. I'm your host, Matt Graves. The 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:32.399 announcement of DNA testing in the de True case came 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:35.880 at the request of authorities in Holland, where Tanya Groon disappeared. 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:40.320 They requested DNA profiles obtained from Mark d' tru'z houses 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:45.040 and vehicles. It's a fratuitous development, as I've been working 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:47.840 on the DNA aspects of the de trueffair for over 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:52.080 a year now. I'm hopeful that this might help shake 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:57.160 up the otherwise dormant case file. Tanya disappeared just three 0:02:57.240 --> 0:03:01.000 miles from the Belgian border. It was a warm summer 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:04.560 night on the evening of August thirty first, nineteen ninety 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:08.840 three when eighteen year old Tanya Groen attended a student 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:13.120 association party in the center of Maastricht. It was her 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:16.480 first year of university and Tanya just moved into her 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:20.919 new room in the nearby suburb of Gronsvelt. She spoke 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:23.680 with her mother at around seven thirty that evening before 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:26.520 riding her bike to the party, and everything seemed normal. 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:31.200 Fellow students who attended the party reported that nothing seemed 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:33.320 out of the ordinary when she left by bike at 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:37.080 around midnight, presumably to ride back to her room in Groansvelt, 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:42.320 about five miles away. Tanya was approximately five foot seven 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:46.200 with long, dark shoulder length hair, and was last seen 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:50.920 wearing blue jeans. Her housemates were concerned when she never 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:54.000 showed up the next day, but it wasn't until she 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:56.560 didn't show up at her parents' house in the north 0:03:56.560 --> 0:04:00.000 of Holland as planned. The following day that they became alarmed. 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:05.760 The disappearance was particularly mysterious, as it seemed as if 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:10.160 she simply vanished without a trace. There was no sign 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:14.000 of Tanya or her bike and no clues whatsoever as 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:18.320 to what may have happened. This case has stumped investigators 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:21.120 for decades, and her parents have never stopped working to 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:25.720 find out what happened to their daughter. In twenty twenty one, 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:28.839 their efforts got a boost when the award winning Dutch 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:33.480 investigative journalist Peter da Vrees launched a crowd funded initiative 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:37.039 called the Golden Tip Foundation to collect money as a 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:40.279 reward for tips leading to the discovery of what happened 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:45.440 to Tanya. In a cruel twist of fate, Peter Davrees 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:49.000 was brutally murdered in broad daylight in the center of 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:53.080 Amsterdam on July sixth, twenty twenty one, just after walking 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:56.840 out of a television studio. I was working on this 0:04:56.920 --> 0:05:00.159 podcast at the time, and it really shocked me and 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:04.360 the entire world for that matter, to see a highly 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:07.560 respected journalist gunned down in the capital city of a 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:12.920 modern Western democracy. He was a courageous man who took 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:17.280 on many dangerous stories, including the notorious drug gangs operating 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:20.760 in Holland. It's not believed that his murder had anything 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:25.200 to do with the investigation into Tanya's disappearance. His foundation 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:28.880 raced over a million euros to investigate the Tanya Grouon case. 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:33.479 Given the proximity of the disappearance to Belgium and the 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:37.320 circumstances of a young woman and her bike vanishing into 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:40.440 thin air, has led the cold case team in Holland 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.640 to investigate the possibility that the True may have been 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:48.120 involved in some way. Else Sreurs, who you heard from 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.400 in episode two, is the partner of Jean Lambrex, the 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:55.160 father of Effie Lambrics, who was abducted and murdered by 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:58.479 De True and his accomplices in nineteen ninety five. I 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:00.640 spoke to Else about tom case. 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:05.120 The Dutch authorities thought that maybe there might be a 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:09.080 link to the two case as at the time of 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:13.160 Dania's disappearance due to was first of all not in prison. 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:17.839 He was very active. He was very much driving around Europe. 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:21.240 He went to Amsterdam, he went to Mastricht that we 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:25.960 know for sure. He went to Berlin. So that comes 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:29.919 with the element that Danya was riding her bike. The 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:33.599 bike disappeared as well, So it's exactly the same thing 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:38.559 that happened with Sabindaden. She was subducted and her bike 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:43.000 vanished as well together with her. Also during the years 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:47.760 two committed a similar crime. He abducted a girl that 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:50.800 was riding a bike. Also he took the bike with 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:51.240 the girl. 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:55.160 Remember that way back in nineteen eighty five, during his 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:58.320 first wave of kidnappings and rapes, the True and other 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:02.680 accomplices bundled and her bike into their van while she 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:06.160 was riding down the street. The abduction of Sabine Darden 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:10.120 ten years later in nineteen ninety five had the exact same. 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:14.720 Mo These are things that are known, and the Dutch 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:18.120 detectives that are working on the case thought that maybe 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:22.440 it was worth looking into the two case in order 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:26.200 to find out whether he might be implied in this crime. 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:29.440 Apart from that in the two case, and that is 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:32.520 also something that is known. There are a lot of 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:38.680 DNA profiles, There are hairs, so, in other words, biological 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:44.120 traces that have not been awarded to some or to 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:47.160 one of the victims or to one of the perpetrators. 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:51.320 In other words, these DNA profiles, these hairs belonged to 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:55.800 unknown persons. Now the Dutch authorities, if I understand correctly, 0:07:56.160 --> 0:08:00.520 want to compare Danja's profile with the unknown pro files 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:02.119 found in the Detou case. 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:05.600 The DNA in the true case is e labyrinth that 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:09.640 I've spent much time trying to understand. It's important to 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:12.840 remember that when detru Is arrested in nineteen ninety six, 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:16.800 DNA testing and analysis was far less sophisticated than today. 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:20.880 There was a lot of evidence collected and analyzed back 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:24.680 in the late nineties and early two thousands. ELSA and 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:27.200 I did a lot of digging through the original case 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:30.200 file to track down the profiles that were established. 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:33.959 So in the Detoo case, there is a police report 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:41.400 stating the fact that twenty six unknown DNA profiles were established. So, 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:47.640 in other words, twenty six people left traces either in 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:52.839 cars belonging to Dotou or in his house, going from 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:58.760 the basement of his house to the attic up till today. 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:02.000 Up until today, it has not been possible to match 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:08.240 these unknown profiles to either victims victims we don't know about, 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:10.640 or even perpetrators we don't know about. 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:13.800 About a year ago, I reached out to an independent 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:17.800 forensic DNA expert in the United States named doctor Richard 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:20.600 Eikelenboom to see if he could help me make sense 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:25.880 of what we found. Doctor Eikelenboom's company, Independent Forensic Services, 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:31.280 specializes in bloodstained pattern analysis, touch traces, and forensic pathology. 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:35.520 His work has led to resolution in a number of cases, 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:38.760 including the wrongful conviction of Tim Masters and that of 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:43.920 former Indiana State trooper David Kam, where doctor Eikelenboom found 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:47.520 touch DNA of the killer, leading to David Kam's exoneration 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:52.280 and the conviction of another man. He's also worked extensively 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:56.200 on other high profile cases, including Jean Benet Ramsey and 0:09:56.280 --> 0:10:00.400 Aaron Hernandez. One of the reasons that I wanted to 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:03.360 elicit his help is that he's actually from Europe and 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:06.679 spent twelve years as a forensic scientist at the Netherlands 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:10.600 Forensic Institute, so he brings an interesting mix of cutting 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:15.240 edge US based techniques with deep experience in Europe. With 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:18.280 permission of the lone Brecks family, I shared the DNA 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.440 information that we could find in the case file, so. 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:25.480 I look I looked at the reports and information you 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:30.320 send me the pictures, and yeah, in order to come 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:35.160 to better conclusions, we need the raw data. So this 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:38.640 is the real data structed by computers, and what's in 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.400 here these are just DNA reports. This this will give 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:44.920 me enough information about the DNA profiles obtained. I missed 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:47.960 the raw data. So what I add? The DNA profiles? Yeah, 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:51.640 you have them in an Excel filel whatever it is, 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:55.200 but it's a table, and what we look at is 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:55.760 the peak. 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:58.800 Profiles from the outset. It was difficult to have a 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:01.480 clear view of what we have and what we don't have. 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:06.600 After our first meeting with doctor Eichlenboom, Jean Lombricks sent 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:10.040 a letter to the General Prosecutor of Liege requesting information 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:12.120 about the profiles. 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:15.560 We basically asked. We sent two letters. The first letter 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:18.560 was about the DNA profiles and we wanted to know 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:23.440 whether they were still available to be checked. And the 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:28.040 answer we received to that letter was clearly not the answer. 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:32.040 The exact answer to the question. We got a message 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:38.160 saying that the DNA profiles were introduced in databases. The 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:42.960 thing is, we don't know in which databases they were introduced. 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:46.920 It's so frustrating that the family of a victim can't 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:49.440 seem to get a straight answer to a simple question 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.560 from what we could deduce from the information included in 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:57.520 the case file. There are multiple unidentified profiles that were 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:01.960 established based on DNA collected from the truce house and vehicles. 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:06.720 There is, for instance, a profile of an unknown person 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:12.160 called unknown number two. This trace was found inside of 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:16.880 the dungeon on the wall, the left wall. But the 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:19.920 problem is that it is with the DNA of Julie 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:24.520 Lezhen and that's what makes it very suspicious and that 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:26.040 troubles us. 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:30.520 This unknown profile mixed with the blood of victim Julie 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:35.960 Legeen found on the wall of the dungeon is extremely suspicious. Again, 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:38.559 Doctor Richard Eichelenboom as I. 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:41.839 Understood, there's at least one unknown person present in a 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:44.880 bloodstain of one of the victims, and of course that's 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:48.040 always important. If you have a donor in blood of 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:52.520 the victim, that can be a very incriminating piece of evidence. 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:55.880 And if you look at the sex part of this 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:58.959 DNA table, it says x y. That means that's the 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:03.000 male have an mil in this case. But you can 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:05.839 also see that they are missing information. So DNA parts 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:09.320 of this person dropped out during DNA profiling, and if 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:11.680 you put that in the database, you get no matches 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:14.600 because you didn't exactly put in the right profile. So 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:19.160 the more information you gain from such a profile, the better. 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:23.280 So if you use more sensitive kit, then it's possible 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:25.720 that certain amounts of the DNA which was were dropped 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:28.400 out of this unknown donor would come up and then 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:30.640 you're you know, okay, this profile is a little bit 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.440 different than what we thought, and that happened a lot 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:36.360 with cases out of two thousands. If you redo them, 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:39.160 you gain more information, you get a better view on 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:43.320 this real person. And since all the victims in this 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:47.920 case were female, young girls, you could filter those out 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:50.160 if you start doing white bromos only the DNA test, 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:54.400 which is only present in MIL subjects, So then you 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:57.640 get a very good look at the amount of donors 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:00.640 mal donors in a sample. For instance, of the problems 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.080 with John bin A Ramsey cases that you had complex 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:06.319 DNA mixtures with a lot of DNA's victim and then 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:09.880 likely to other donors which could be both male which 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:12.800 could also be male female and maybe the mother. So 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:16.200 if you filter the female DNA out of that with 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:19.880 Y chromos only DNA testing because that cannot detect female DNA, 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:24.200 then you left with the male donors. That gives you 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:27.400 a lot of information about okay. So forensically we use 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:29.160 that Y chromosome and DNA testing a. 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:33.560 Lot else explains further about the unknown DNA profiles. 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:38.200 Then we have an unknown profile called number three. It's 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:41.360 a profile that was found on a piece of a 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:45.120 pajama something, a piece of cloth that was found in 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:48.840 the attic of the house of the Twin Marxinel. It 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:53.520 has bloodstains on it, it has hairs on it. So 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:56.840 on this piece of cloth a trace is found and 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:00.560 it's determined that it is it comes from a female 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:05.880 human being. But this trace found in the attic has 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:08.400 so far not been matched to anyone. 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:12.720 This unknown female blood found on pajamas could certainly be 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:17.680 an unidentified victim. All profiles were tested against the victims, 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:21.200 Michelle Martin and the true's children, so it didn't come 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:21.960 from any of them. 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:27.440 So apart from the DNA profiles that have been established, 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:31.160 there are also a lot of hairs found. Hairs that 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:35.840 were found in cars, also in the house in several places. 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:39.600 These hairs are still available today, but at the time 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:45.400 they have been briefly investigated, but still not matched to 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:49.800 any of the victims, to any of the perpetrators and 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:54.800 the King's prosecutor. What did this? Well, this line of 0:15:54.840 --> 0:16:02.120 inquiry cleared, but well, obviously the investigating magistrate didn't want 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:04.920 to do it and he was forced in the end, 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:08.080 he was forced by the Court for Appeals of Liege 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:13.960 back in two thousand and one. Anyway, the result is 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:16.040 still there is still no result today. 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:19.920 I asked doctor Eigelenboom for his thoughts about who the 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:21.800 DNA profiles could belong to. 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:24.800 It could be or it's even very likely that the 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:29.440 perpetrators left some of their hairs there. So in that sense, 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:33.080 given that it's much easier and also much cheaper to 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:38.040 do DNA profiling now, it could be useful to look 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:41.320 at those hairs and start testing those. Yeah, I would 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:43.600 certainly want to know who is the person who they 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:47.200 donated his DNA or her DNA inside the bloods in 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:50.360 one of the victims. That's incriminating evidence. To go for 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.880 all the forensic evidence which is still there, and then 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:57.960 review a number of samples already taken, but also you 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:01.800 could review evidence itself still there and see if you 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:03.680 can get better results out of that is the new 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:07.400 DNA kids and then using a combination of sensitive new 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:11.800 autosomal dnakeds the standard kids, but also white romosome DNA, 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:14.600 so that you have a much better view of these 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:17.040 mil donors in these samples. 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:20.960 Else and Jean Lombricks sent a second letter to the 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:24.600 Prosecutor General in August to ask if the evidence collected 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:28.440 in the case still exists. They haven't yet received an 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:31.520 answer to this letter, but I'm hopeful that the evidence 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:35.520 still exists and that it could be retested. Not only 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:38.320 could it potentially help to find out more about other 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.879 missing persons from the time, like Tanya Groom, but it 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:45.440 might also turn up new suspects who were never brought 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:54.520 to justice. There are many loose ends in the true 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:58.920 affair that have troubled victims families for years. Some of them, 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:02.760 like DNA tests, are out of our hands, but following 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:05.600 leads and tracking people down are loose ends that we 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:09.520 may be able to tie up. Over the past several months, 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:13.639 I've made progress on that front. You'll remember that throughout 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:17.159 this podcast, starting with episode two, I talked about an 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:21.720 establishment called the Hotel Brazil in the seaside town of Blankenberg, 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:25.560 where Anne Marschal and Effia Lambrics attended a hypnosis show 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:30.080 shortly before disappearing. More than one witness claimed to have 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:33.359 seen Anne and Effia after the hypnosis show, either in 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:36.600 front of the Hotel Brazil or nearby on the same street. 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:41.000 The owner of this hotel and bar had been charged 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:45.520 with engaging in prostitution and human trafficking, and a friend 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:48.119 of the hotel and bar owner, who was also an 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:51.360 acquaintance of Mark de True, was staying at the Hotel 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:55.840 Brazil when Anne and Effiu went missing. I spoke about 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:59.800 this with the investigative journalist Douglas d'aconick, who actually interviewed 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:02.159 the witness who claimed to have seen Anne and Effia 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:05.840 in front of this hotel. I recorded this while driving 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:08.200 with Douglas, so there's a bit of background noise. 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.480 I think it was Paul Marchal, the father of He 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:18.159 just spoke about something in Blankenberger with a butcher named 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:22.960 Eric van Damo, and so I went to Blankenberg, knocked 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:25.280 on his door, he opened, and he started telling me 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:30.760 his incredible story. For Paul Marchell, which is very important 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:36.040 his daughter. And if they went to a show in 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:39.800 Blankenberg in the casino, they had to take the lost 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:44.280 trying to place the States. But after the show, they 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:48.760 have been in Blankenberger for about an hour and what 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:52.160 his butcher said was explained was that he was in 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:55.680 trouble with his neighbor. His neighbor was a current kind 0:19:55.680 --> 0:20:00.000 of prostitute born named Hotel Brazil. And what the butcher 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:02.919 told me was that it was coming and going in 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:08.240 that hotel of clients women of which you could divine 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:12.919 that they were prostitutes. But he said that evening, a 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:15.320 few days after the disappearance of alan If, I saw 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:18.879 the pictures in the paper and I immediately remembered that 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:21.840 those were the two girls I saw going into that 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:23.280 hotel that evening. 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:26.560 I think it's yeah, in the context of. 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:31.040 Neighbors having fights, you should always should be very careful 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:35.399 about about this kind of testimony. So later on I 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:38.760 discovered that on the day of the arrest of Market, 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:42.240 two police search his house and close to the phone 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:44.359 they found the notes with a phone number. 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:46.600 It was the phone number of the hotel president. 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:50.840 This is an important piece of information. That Douglas just shared. 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:55.560 On the day of the arrest of Market two, police 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:58.600 search his house and close to the phone they've found 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:00.639 the notes the phone number. 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:02.800 It was a phone number of the hotel resident. 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:07.240 When da True was arrested, police found a piece of 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:10.240 paper near his phone at the house in Marcinelle where 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:14.000 the girls were held captive. On this piece of paper 0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:17.120 was the name and telephone number of the Hotel Brazil. 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:21.320 These aren't the only coincidences that make this whole Hotel 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:25.560 Brazil connection suspicious. I mentioned that de True had an 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:28.720 acquaintance that was staying at the Hotel Brazil during the summer. 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:32.560 When Anne and Effia disappeared, that acquaintance, who was also 0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:35.359 a friend of the Hotel Brazil owner, drove a car 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:38.879 with a license plate that's almost an exact match to 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:42.840 a license plate identified by a witness in Gracelonna under 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:46.800 the bridge where Julian and Melissa disappeared. The car was 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:55.040 a red Ford Fiesta. I interviewed ex gendarmes Jean Pierre Radon, 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:57.960 who worked with the special unit that was formed just 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:01.440 after Datrue's arrest and investigated the red car lead. At 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:04.120 the behest of the King's prosecutor Michel Bole. 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:09.399 The prosecutor Boorles came into my office one day and 0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:11.719 he asked me to look into finding information about a 0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:14.200 red Ford Fiesta that could have been used for the 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:18.480 abduction of Julie and Melissa. I started to look into it, 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:22.480 and indeed, indeed there were several testimonies about a little 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:25.719 red car or a red Ford Fiesta seen near the 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:32.399 bridge where Julie and Melissa were abducted. And then I 0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:37.520 stumbled upon something, and I can tell you it's a catastrophe. 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:41.639 I stumbled upon a letter from a doctor, the doctor ARROWI. 0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:46.040 Shortly after the abduction of Jili and Melissa. He sent 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:49.600 a letter to the investigation unit in Grassolonna, where he 0:22:49.680 --> 0:22:52.880 explained that on the day of the abduction, he noticed 0:22:52.920 --> 0:22:56.200 something that seemed out of place. There was a van 0:22:56.560 --> 0:22:58.479 and a red car on the side of the highway 0:22:59.040 --> 0:23:01.639 very close to where the girl had disappeared. And he 0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:05.400 remembered the first three letters of the license plate NKV, 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:08.200 and then he couldn't remember the rest. And he sent 0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:11.280 this letter to the investigation unit, and I don't know 0:23:11.320 --> 0:23:14.880 who processed it, but they marked it as non exploitable, 0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:18.600 non exploitable. I'm sorry, but if someone had taken the 0:23:18.640 --> 0:23:21.840 time to read the Othello report with the names that 0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:25.359 were in there, there was a certain Niccolo Mazarin who 0:23:25.480 --> 0:23:27.879 was cited in the Othello report as an accomplice of 0:23:27.960 --> 0:23:29.199 de True. 0:23:29.359 --> 0:23:32.320 The Othello report that he's referring to is the report 0:23:32.400 --> 0:23:36.600 on the operation Othello, the secret surveillance operation of De 0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:41.960 True that started shortly after Julian Melissa disappeared. The name 0:23:42.040 --> 0:23:45.879 he mentions, Nicolo Mazarin, was not only an accomplice of 0:23:46.000 --> 0:23:48.879 d True, but he was also a friend of the 0:23:48.880 --> 0:23:52.880 Hotel Brazil owner. The red car with a license plate 0:23:52.960 --> 0:23:56.720 starting with NKV was recorded in the Othello report because 0:23:56.760 --> 0:23:59.680 it had been observed visiting d' tru'z house in Charlerois. 0:24:01.800 --> 0:24:03.840 If someone had taken the time to look at the 0:24:03.880 --> 0:24:07.119 cars attributed to Mazarin and his wife, they would have 0:24:07.160 --> 0:24:12.200 found the NKV nine four seven, and that license plate 0:24:12.480 --> 0:24:15.199 was at one of Dutruz's properties on a car that 0:24:15.280 --> 0:24:19.360 was put up for sales, and no one made the connection. 0:24:19.000 --> 0:24:21.160 At the time. 0:24:21.400 --> 0:24:24.480 Even a rookie cop would have found this, but they didn't. 0:24:24.960 --> 0:24:27.080 And I'm convinced that if someone would have looked at this, 0:24:27.359 --> 0:24:31.320 they could have found Julie and Melissa alive. They were 0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:32.440 alive at that time. 0:24:33.119 --> 0:24:36.080 I asked Jan Pierre Radon if they'd ever interviewed the 0:24:36.119 --> 0:24:37.240 doctor who wrote the letter. 0:24:38.560 --> 0:24:42.000 They never did. I requested permission to interview him. I 0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:45.280 made requests and requests and requests, and I was told yes, 0:24:45.440 --> 0:24:47.720 but I never got the authorization because I needed a 0:24:47.800 --> 0:24:51.080 judges authorization, but never got it. The witness is dead now, 0:24:51.200 --> 0:24:54.760 the poor guy. They sabotaged the lead about the red Fiesta, 0:24:54.960 --> 0:24:57.800 and they sabotaged others afterwards. 0:24:57.640 --> 0:25:00.800 Even without interviewing the doctor. Had a I already followed 0:25:00.800 --> 0:25:03.720 the evidence, they would have found a clear connection between 0:25:03.800 --> 0:25:07.680 the True Mazara, the NKV license plate, and the red 0:25:07.760 --> 0:25:11.360 Ford Fiesta. You'll recall that the owner of the Hotel 0:25:11.400 --> 0:25:14.720 Brazil was questioned by police after de True was arrested. 0:25:15.400 --> 0:25:17.360 Else explained this in episode two. 0:25:18.200 --> 0:25:22.160 So eventually this bar owner, he was questioned by the police. 0:25:22.680 --> 0:25:25.679