1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartMedia, Tenderfoot TV, or 4 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: their employees. This podcast also contains subject matter which may 5 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 6 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 2: It's October twenty twenty two. While walking down the street, 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 2: I received a text message about some breaking news. The 8 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 2: Belgian Minister of Justice has just announced DNA comparisons with 9 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 2: the true file. But this request isn't about any of 10 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 2: the victims that we've been discussing. It's for a different case, 11 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 2: the nineteen ninety three disappearance of a Dutch college. 12 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:48,840 Speaker 3: Student oh Piba la police i le juste. 13 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 4: Ma true with the Native Lance student Tanya krun Moko Schlacht. 14 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 5: I found the warning. I found ninety two agistolets. 15 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 2: And eighteen year old Tiny Groon disappeared during introduction week 16 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 2: at Mastrich University in Holland, close to the Belgian border. 17 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 6: Alice is marked a true implicated in the disappearance of 18 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 6: a Dutch student in nineteen ninety three. The Dutch authorities 19 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 6: are studying this question very seriously. The young woman Tanya Groon, 20 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 6: disappeared in Mastricht, close to the Belgian border, in nineteen 21 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 6: ninety three. Dutch authorities are requesting evidence from Belgian authorities 22 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 6: related to this affair. 23 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 2: Her case has gone unsolved for nearly thirty years, but 24 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 2: it bears striking similarities to some of Dtruz's victims. Could 25 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 2: this renewed interest in DNA from the d True affair 26 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 2: open the door to more victims and more accomplices. 27 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 7: A psychopaths is somebody who understands emotions. 28 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 3: And I told them it is a very exceptional that 29 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 3: somebody abducts two children at the same time. 30 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 4: To have been the yen of it in nineteen eighty six, 31 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 4: but my gods, it was just a beginning. 32 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 8: I think Belgium was a paralyzed for perverts in those days. 33 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 2: Welcome to la monstre. I'm your host, Matt Graves. The 34 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,399 Speaker 2: announcement of DNA testing in the de True case came 35 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 2: at the request of authorities in Holland, where Tanya Groon disappeared. 36 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 2: They requested DNA profiles obtained from Mark d' tru'z houses 37 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 2: and vehicles. It's a fratuitous development, as I've been working 38 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 2: on the DNA aspects of the de trueffair for over 39 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 2: a year now. I'm hopeful that this might help shake 40 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 2: up the otherwise dormant case file. Tanya disappeared just three 41 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 2: miles from the Belgian border. It was a warm summer 42 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 2: night on the evening of August thirty first, nineteen ninety 43 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 2: three when eighteen year old Tanya Groen attended a student 44 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 2: association party in the center of Maastricht. It was her 45 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 2: first year of university and Tanya just moved into her 46 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 2: new room in the nearby suburb of Gronsvelt. She spoke 47 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 2: with her mother at around seven thirty that evening before 48 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 2: riding her bike to the party, and everything seemed normal. 49 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 2: Fellow students who attended the party reported that nothing seemed 50 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 2: out of the ordinary when she left by bike at 51 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 2: around midnight, presumably to ride back to her room in Groansvelt, 52 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: about five miles away. Tanya was approximately five foot seven 53 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 2: with long, dark shoulder length hair, and was last seen 54 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 2: wearing blue jeans. Her housemates were concerned when she never 55 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: showed up the next day, but it wasn't until she 56 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 2: didn't show up at her parents' house in the north 57 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: of Holland as planned. The following day that they became alarmed. 58 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 2: The disappearance was particularly mysterious, as it seemed as if 59 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 2: she simply vanished without a trace. There was no sign 60 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 2: of Tanya or her bike and no clues whatsoever as 61 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 2: to what may have happened. This case has stumped investigators 62 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 2: for decades, and her parents have never stopped working to 63 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 2: find out what happened to their daughter. In twenty twenty one, 64 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 2: their efforts got a boost when the award winning Dutch 65 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 2: investigative journalist Peter da Vrees launched a crowd funded initiative 66 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 2: called the Golden Tip Foundation to collect money as a 67 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 2: reward for tips leading to the discovery of what happened 68 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 2: to Tanya. In a cruel twist of fate, Peter Davrees 69 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 2: was brutally murdered in broad daylight in the center of 70 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: Amsterdam on July sixth, twenty twenty one, just after walking 71 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 2: out of a television studio. I was working on this 72 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 2: podcast at the time, and it really shocked me and 73 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 2: the entire world for that matter, to see a highly 74 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 2: respected journalist gunned down in the capital city of a 75 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 2: modern Western democracy. He was a courageous man who took 76 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 2: on many dangerous stories, including the notorious drug gangs operating 77 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 2: in Holland. It's not believed that his murder had anything 78 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 2: to do with the investigation into Tanya's disappearance. His foundation 79 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 2: raced over a million euros to investigate the Tanya Grouon case. 80 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 2: Given the proximity of the disappearance to Belgium and the 81 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 2: circumstances of a young woman and her bike vanishing into 82 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 2: thin air, has led the cold case team in Holland 83 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: to investigate the possibility that the True may have been 84 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 2: involved in some way. Else Sreurs, who you heard from 85 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 2: in episode two, is the partner of Jean Lambrex, the 86 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 2: father of Effie Lambrics, who was abducted and murdered by 87 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 2: De True and his accomplices in nineteen ninety five. I 88 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 2: spoke to Else about tom case. 89 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 9: The Dutch authorities thought that maybe there might be a 90 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 9: link to the two case as at the time of 91 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 9: Dania's disappearance due to was first of all not in prison. 92 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 9: He was very active. He was very much driving around Europe. 93 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 9: He went to Amsterdam, he went to Mastricht that we 94 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 9: know for sure. He went to Berlin. So that comes 95 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,919 Speaker 9: with the element that Danya was riding her bike. The 96 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 9: bike disappeared as well, So it's exactly the same thing 97 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:38,559 Speaker 9: that happened with Sabindaden. She was subducted and her bike 98 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 9: vanished as well together with her. Also during the years 99 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 9: two committed a similar crime. He abducted a girl that 100 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 9: was riding a bike. Also he took the bike with 101 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 9: the girl. 102 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 2: Remember that way back in nineteen eighty five, during his 103 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 2: first wave of kidnappings and rapes, the True and other 104 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 2: accomplices bundled and her bike into their van while she 105 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 2: was riding down the street. The abduction of Sabine Darden 106 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 2: ten years later in nineteen ninety five had the exact same. 107 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 9: Mo These are things that are known, and the Dutch 108 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 9: detectives that are working on the case thought that maybe 109 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 9: it was worth looking into the two case in order 110 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 9: to find out whether he might be implied in this crime. 111 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 9: Apart from that in the two case, and that is 112 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 9: also something that is known. There are a lot of 113 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 9: DNA profiles, There are hairs, so, in other words, biological 114 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 9: traces that have not been awarded to some or to 115 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 9: one of the victims or to one of the perpetrators. 116 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 9: In other words, these DNA profiles, these hairs belonged to 117 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 9: unknown persons. Now the Dutch authorities, if I understand correctly, 118 00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 9: want to compare Danja's profile with the unknown pro files 119 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:02,119 Speaker 9: found in the Detou case. 120 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 2: The DNA in the true case is e labyrinth that 121 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 2: I've spent much time trying to understand. It's important to 122 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 2: remember that when detru Is arrested in nineteen ninety six, 123 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 2: DNA testing and analysis was far less sophisticated than today. 124 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 2: There was a lot of evidence collected and analyzed back 125 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 2: in the late nineties and early two thousands. ELSA and 126 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 2: I did a lot of digging through the original case 127 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 2: file to track down the profiles that were established. 128 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 9: So in the Detoo case, there is a police report 129 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 9: stating the fact that twenty six unknown DNA profiles were established. So, 130 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 9: in other words, twenty six people left traces either in 131 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 9: cars belonging to Dotou or in his house, going from 132 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 9: the basement of his house to the attic up till today. 133 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 9: Up until today, it has not been possible to match 134 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 9: these unknown profiles to either victims victims we don't know about, 135 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 9: or even perpetrators we don't know about. 136 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 2: About a year ago, I reached out to an independent 137 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 2: forensic DNA expert in the United States named doctor Richard 138 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 2: Eikelenboom to see if he could help me make sense 139 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 2: of what we found. Doctor Eikelenboom's company, Independent Forensic Services, 140 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 2: specializes in bloodstained pattern analysis, touch traces, and forensic pathology. 141 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 2: His work has led to resolution in a number of cases, 142 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 2: including the wrongful conviction of Tim Masters and that of 143 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 2: former Indiana State trooper David Kam, where doctor Eikelenboom found 144 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 2: touch DNA of the killer, leading to David Kam's exoneration 145 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 2: and the conviction of another man. He's also worked extensively 146 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 2: on other high profile cases, including Jean Benet Ramsey and 147 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 2: Aaron Hernandez. One of the reasons that I wanted to 148 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 2: elicit his help is that he's actually from Europe and 149 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 2: spent twelve years as a forensic scientist at the Netherlands 150 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 2: Forensic Institute, so he brings an interesting mix of cutting 151 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 2: edge US based techniques with deep experience in Europe. With 152 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 2: permission of the lone Brecks family, I shared the DNA 153 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 2: information that we could find in the case file, so. 154 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 4: I look I looked at the reports and information you 155 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 4: send me the pictures, and yeah, in order to come 156 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 4: to better conclusions, we need the raw data. So this 157 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 4: is the real data structed by computers, and what's in 158 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 4: here these are just DNA reports. This this will give 159 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 4: me enough information about the DNA profiles obtained. I missed 160 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 4: the raw data. So what I add? The DNA profiles? Yeah, 161 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 4: you have them in an Excel filel whatever it is, 162 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 4: but it's a table, and what we look at is 163 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 4: the peak. 164 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 2: Profiles from the outset. It was difficult to have a 165 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 2: clear view of what we have and what we don't have. 166 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 2: After our first meeting with doctor Eichlenboom, Jean Lombricks sent 167 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 2: a letter to the General Prosecutor of Liege requesting information 168 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 2: about the profiles. 169 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 9: We basically asked. We sent two letters. The first letter 170 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 9: was about the DNA profiles and we wanted to know 171 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 9: whether they were still available to be checked. And the 172 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 9: answer we received to that letter was clearly not the answer. 173 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 9: The exact answer to the question. We got a message 174 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 9: saying that the DNA profiles were introduced in databases. The 175 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 9: thing is, we don't know in which databases they were introduced. 176 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 2: It's so frustrating that the family of a victim can't 177 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 2: seem to get a straight answer to a simple question 178 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 2: from what we could deduce from the information included in 179 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 2: the case file. There are multiple unidentified profiles that were 180 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 2: established based on DNA collected from the truce house and vehicles. 181 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 9: There is, for instance, a profile of an unknown person 182 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 9: called unknown number two. This trace was found inside of 183 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 9: the dungeon on the wall, the left wall. But the 184 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 9: problem is that it is with the DNA of Julie 185 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 9: Lezhen and that's what makes it very suspicious and that 186 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 9: troubles us. 187 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 2: This unknown profile mixed with the blood of victim Julie 188 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 2: Legeen found on the wall of the dungeon is extremely suspicious. Again, 189 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:38,559 Speaker 2: Doctor Richard Eichelenboom as I. 190 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,839 Speaker 4: Understood, there's at least one unknown person present in a 191 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 4: bloodstain of one of the victims, and of course that's 192 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 4: always important. If you have a donor in blood of 193 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 4: the victim, that can be a very incriminating piece of evidence. 194 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 4: And if you look at the sex part of this 195 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:58,959 Speaker 4: DNA table, it says x y. That means that's the 196 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 4: male have an mil in this case. But you can 197 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,839 Speaker 4: also see that they are missing information. So DNA parts 198 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 4: of this person dropped out during DNA profiling, and if 199 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 4: you put that in the database, you get no matches 200 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 4: because you didn't exactly put in the right profile. So 201 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 4: the more information you gain from such a profile, the better. 202 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 4: So if you use more sensitive kit, then it's possible 203 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 4: that certain amounts of the DNA which was were dropped 204 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 4: out of this unknown donor would come up and then 205 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 4: you're you know, okay, this profile is a little bit 206 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 4: different than what we thought, and that happened a lot 207 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 4: with cases out of two thousands. If you redo them, 208 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 4: you gain more information, you get a better view on 209 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 4: this real person. And since all the victims in this 210 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 4: case were female, young girls, you could filter those out 211 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 4: if you start doing white bromos only the DNA test, 212 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 4: which is only present in MIL subjects, So then you 213 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 4: get a very good look at the amount of donors 214 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 4: mal donors in a sample. For instance, of the problems 215 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 4: with John bin A Ramsey cases that you had complex 216 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,319 Speaker 4: DNA mixtures with a lot of DNA's victim and then 217 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 4: likely to other donors which could be both male which 218 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 4: could also be male female and maybe the mother. So 219 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 4: if you filter the female DNA out of that with 220 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 4: Y chromos only DNA testing because that cannot detect female DNA, 221 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 4: then you left with the male donors. That gives you 222 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 4: a lot of information about okay. So forensically we use 223 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 4: that Y chromosome and DNA testing a. 224 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 2: Lot else explains further about the unknown DNA profiles. 225 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 9: Then we have an unknown profile called number three. It's 226 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 9: a profile that was found on a piece of a 227 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 9: pajama something, a piece of cloth that was found in 228 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 9: the attic of the house of the Twin Marxinel. It 229 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 9: has bloodstains on it, it has hairs on it. So 230 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 9: on this piece of cloth a trace is found and 231 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 9: it's determined that it is it comes from a female 232 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 9: human being. But this trace found in the attic has 233 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 9: so far not been matched to anyone. 234 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 2: This unknown female blood found on pajamas could certainly be 235 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 2: an unidentified victim. All profiles were tested against the victims, 236 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 2: Michelle Martin and the true's children, so it didn't come 237 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 2: from any of them. 238 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 9: So apart from the DNA profiles that have been established, 239 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 9: there are also a lot of hairs found. Hairs that 240 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 9: were found in cars, also in the house in several places. 241 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 9: These hairs are still available today, but at the time 242 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 9: they have been briefly investigated, but still not matched to 243 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 9: any of the victims, to any of the perpetrators and 244 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 9: the King's prosecutor. What did this? Well, this line of 245 00:15:54,840 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 9: inquiry cleared, but well, obviously the investigating magistrate didn't want 246 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 9: to do it and he was forced in the end, 247 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 9: he was forced by the Court for Appeals of Liege 248 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 9: back in two thousand and one. Anyway, the result is 249 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 9: still there is still no result today. 250 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 2: I asked doctor Eigelenboom for his thoughts about who the 251 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 2: DNA profiles could belong to. 252 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 4: It could be or it's even very likely that the 253 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 4: perpetrators left some of their hairs there. So in that sense, 254 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 4: given that it's much easier and also much cheaper to 255 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 4: do DNA profiling now, it could be useful to look 256 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 4: at those hairs and start testing those. Yeah, I would 257 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 4: certainly want to know who is the person who they 258 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 4: donated his DNA or her DNA inside the bloods in 259 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 4: one of the victims. That's incriminating evidence. To go for 260 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 4: all the forensic evidence which is still there, and then 261 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 4: review a number of samples already taken, but also you 262 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 4: could review evidence itself still there and see if you 263 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 4: can get better results out of that is the new 264 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 4: DNA kids and then using a combination of sensitive new 265 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 4: autosomal dnakeds the standard kids, but also white romosome DNA, 266 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 4: so that you have a much better view of these 267 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 4: mil donors in these samples. 268 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 2: Else and Jean Lombricks sent a second letter to the 269 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 2: Prosecutor General in August to ask if the evidence collected 270 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 2: in the case still exists. They haven't yet received an 271 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 2: answer to this letter, but I'm hopeful that the evidence 272 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 2: still exists and that it could be retested. Not only 273 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 2: could it potentially help to find out more about other 274 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 2: missing persons from the time, like Tanya Groom, but it 275 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 2: might also turn up new suspects who were never brought 276 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 2: to justice. There are many loose ends in the true 277 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 2: affair that have troubled victims families for years. Some of them, 278 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 2: like DNA tests, are out of our hands, but following 279 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 2: leads and tracking people down are loose ends that we 280 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 2: may be able to tie up. Over the past several months, 281 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 2: I've made progress on that front. You'll remember that throughout 282 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 2: this podcast, starting with episode two, I talked about an 283 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 2: establishment called the Hotel Brazil in the seaside town of Blankenberg, 284 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 2: where Anne Marschal and Effia Lambrics attended a hypnosis show 285 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 2: shortly before disappearing. More than one witness claimed to have 286 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 2: seen Anne and Effia after the hypnosis show, either in 287 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 2: front of the Hotel Brazil or nearby on the same street. 288 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 2: The owner of this hotel and bar had been charged 289 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 2: with engaging in prostitution and human trafficking, and a friend 290 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 2: of the hotel and bar owner, who was also an 291 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,360 Speaker 2: acquaintance of Mark de True, was staying at the Hotel 292 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 2: Brazil when Anne and Effiu went missing. I spoke about 293 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 2: this with the investigative journalist Douglas d'aconick, who actually interviewed 294 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 2: the witness who claimed to have seen Anne and Effia 295 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 2: in front of this hotel. I recorded this while driving 296 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 2: with Douglas, so there's a bit of background noise. 297 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 8: I think it was Paul Marchal, the father of He 298 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 8: just spoke about something in Blankenberger with a butcher named 299 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 8: Eric van Damo, and so I went to Blankenberg, knocked 300 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 8: on his door, he opened, and he started telling me 301 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 8: his incredible story. For Paul Marchell, which is very important 302 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 8: his daughter. And if they went to a show in 303 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 8: Blankenberg in the casino, they had to take the lost 304 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 8: trying to place the States. But after the show, they 305 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 8: have been in Blankenberger for about an hour and what 306 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 8: his butcher said was explained was that he was in 307 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 8: trouble with his neighbor. His neighbor was a current kind 308 00:19:55,680 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 8: of prostitute born named Hotel Brazil. And what the butcher 309 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 8: told me was that it was coming and going in 310 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 8: that hotel of clients women of which you could divine 311 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 8: that they were prostitutes. But he said that evening, a 312 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 8: few days after the disappearance of alan If, I saw 313 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 8: the pictures in the paper and I immediately remembered that 314 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 8: those were the two girls I saw going into that 315 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 8: hotel that evening. 316 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 5: I think it's yeah, in the context of. 317 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 8: Neighbors having fights, you should always should be very careful 318 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 8: about about this kind of testimony. So later on I 319 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 8: discovered that on the day of the arrest of Market, 320 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 8: two police search his house and close to the phone 321 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 8: they found the notes with a phone number. 322 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 5: It was the phone number of the hotel president. 323 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 2: This is an important piece of information. That Douglas just shared. 324 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 8: On the day of the arrest of Market two, police 325 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 8: search his house and close to the phone they've found 326 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 8: the notes the phone number. 327 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 5: It was a phone number of the hotel resident. 328 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 2: When da True was arrested, police found a piece of 329 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 2: paper near his phone at the house in Marcinelle where 330 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 2: the girls were held captive. On this piece of paper 331 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,120 Speaker 2: was the name and telephone number of the Hotel Brazil. 332 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 2: These aren't the only coincidences that make this whole Hotel 333 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 2: Brazil connection suspicious. I mentioned that de True had an 334 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 2: acquaintance that was staying at the Hotel Brazil during the summer. 335 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 2: When Anne and Effia disappeared, that acquaintance, who was also 336 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 2: a friend of the Hotel Brazil owner, drove a car 337 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 2: with a license plate that's almost an exact match to 338 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 2: a license plate identified by a witness in Gracelonna under 339 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 2: the bridge where Julian and Melissa disappeared. The car was 340 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 2: a red Ford Fiesta. I interviewed ex gendarmes Jean Pierre Radon, 341 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 2: who worked with the special unit that was formed just 342 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 2: after Datrue's arrest and investigated the red car lead. At 343 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,120 Speaker 2: the behest of the King's prosecutor Michel Bole. 344 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 6: The prosecutor Boorles came into my office one day and 345 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,719 Speaker 6: he asked me to look into finding information about a 346 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 6: red Ford Fiesta that could have been used for the 347 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 6: abduction of Julie and Melissa. I started to look into it, 348 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 6: and indeed, indeed there were several testimonies about a little 349 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,719 Speaker 6: red car or a red Ford Fiesta seen near the 350 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 6: bridge where Julie and Melissa were abducted. And then I 351 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 6: stumbled upon something, and I can tell you it's a catastrophe. 352 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 6: I stumbled upon a letter from a doctor, the doctor ARROWI. 353 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 6: Shortly after the abduction of Jili and Melissa. He sent 354 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 6: a letter to the investigation unit in Grassolonna, where he 355 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 6: explained that on the day of the abduction, he noticed 356 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 6: something that seemed out of place. There was a van 357 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,479 Speaker 6: and a red car on the side of the highway 358 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 6: very close to where the girl had disappeared. And he 359 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,400 Speaker 6: remembered the first three letters of the license plate NKV, 360 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 6: and then he couldn't remember the rest. And he sent 361 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 6: this letter to the investigation unit, and I don't know 362 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 6: who processed it, but they marked it as non exploitable, 363 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 6: non exploitable. I'm sorry, but if someone had taken the 364 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 6: time to read the Othello report with the names that 365 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 6: were in there, there was a certain Niccolo Mazarin who 366 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 6: was cited in the Othello report as an accomplice of 367 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:29,199 Speaker 6: de True. 368 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 2: The Othello report that he's referring to is the report 369 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 2: on the operation Othello, the secret surveillance operation of De 370 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 2: True that started shortly after Julian Melissa disappeared. The name 371 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 2: he mentions, Nicolo Mazarin, was not only an accomplice of 372 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 2: d True, but he was also a friend of the 373 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,880 Speaker 2: Hotel Brazil owner. The red car with a license plate 374 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 2: starting with NKV was recorded in the Othello report because 375 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 2: it had been observed visiting d' tru'z house in Charlerois. 376 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 6: If someone had taken the time to look at the 377 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 6: cars attributed to Mazarin and his wife, they would have 378 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 6: found the NKV nine four seven, and that license plate 379 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,199 Speaker 6: was at one of Dutruz's properties on a car that 380 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,360 Speaker 6: was put up for sales, and no one made the connection. 381 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 5: At the time. 382 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 6: Even a rookie cop would have found this, but they didn't. 383 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 6: And I'm convinced that if someone would have looked at this, 384 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 6: they could have found Julie and Melissa alive. They were 385 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 6: alive at that time. 386 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 2: I asked Jan Pierre Radon if they'd ever interviewed the 387 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 2: doctor who wrote the letter. 388 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 6: They never did. I requested permission to interview him. I 389 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 6: made requests and requests and requests, and I was told yes, 390 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 6: but I never got the authorization because I needed a 391 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 6: judges authorization, but never got it. The witness is dead now, 392 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 6: the poor guy. They sabotaged the lead about the red Fiesta, 393 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 6: and they sabotaged others afterwards. 394 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 2: Even without interviewing the doctor. Had a I already followed 395 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 2: the evidence, they would have found a clear connection between 396 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 2: the True Mazara, the NKV license plate, and the red 397 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,360 Speaker 2: Ford Fiesta. You'll recall that the owner of the Hotel 398 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 2: Brazil was questioned by police after de True was arrested. 399 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,360 Speaker 2: Else explained this in episode two. 400 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 10: So eventually this bar owner, he was questioned by the police. 401 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 10: He was questioned the first time on the first of 402 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 10: October nineteen ninety six, and then one time or a 403 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 10: second time on the sixteenth of October. But after that 404 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 10: he actually vanished from the earth. So he left he 405 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 10: left Blankenberg. He announced to the local authorities that he 406 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 10: would go to Germany, but in Germany there was no 407 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 10: trace of him left. 408 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 2: Both d True and Lo Lievre later admitted to abducting 409 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 2: Anne and Effia at the Belgian seaside. The question here 410 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 2: is whether or not they were helped in some way. 411 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 2: I believe this man from the Hotel Brazil could show 412 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 2: light on this question. He may not have been involved 413 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 2: in any way, or perhaps his friend Mazaha with the 414 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 2: red Ford Fiesta was involved. Unfortunately, Mazaha has since passed away. 415 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 2: So I set out to try to find a Hotel 416 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 2: Brazil owner, who I'll refrained from naming because I don't 417 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 2: want to falsely implicate anyone for something as abhorrent as 418 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 2: being involved with the abuse and murder of children. He 419 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 2: certainly isn't a saint, but his other dodgy affairs are 420 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 2: of no concern to us here. Our last tip was 421 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 2: that he lived in Brazil, so that's where we started. 422 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 2: I was able to find a local journalist named Fernanda 423 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,120 Speaker 2: to help try to locate him for an interview. 424 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 11: I checked the public databases and there is no trace 425 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 11: of him in the system here. As far as I 426 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 11: can tell you, We've. 427 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 2: Decided not to share Fernanda's full name or exact location, 428 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 2: as snooping around the world of international organized crime is 429 00:26:58,160 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 2: dangerous business. 430 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 11: I drove by the address we discussed the last time, 431 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 11: and it's definitely not a residence. It's like a pharmacy. 432 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 2: After a lot of searching and even a drive by 433 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 2: at a place where we thought he might be, we 434 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 2: were getting nowhere, so I asked her to switch her 435 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 2: focus to searching for a woman who spent time at 436 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 2: the Hotel Brazil in Belgium before fleeing back to Brazil. 437 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 2: You'll recall in episode two that I spoke with a 438 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 2: man who described an incident involving a Brazilian woman at 439 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 2: the Hotel Brazil. 440 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 7: My father came in conflicts with this person because they 441 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 7: found outside the front door of his house, we found 442 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 7: a young woman, a Brazilian woman, crying and who had 443 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 7: been beaten, and my father took the woman inside, and 444 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 7: it turned out that this woman had been fetched from 445 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 7: Brazil and she had been brought to Belgium with an 446 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 7: expectation that she would have work, but in reality it 447 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 7: was meant for prostitution, and mister had taken all documents 448 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 7: passport so that he controlled this woman. My father then 449 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 7: contacted the police and the police went inside the house, 450 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 7: found another woman and also found weapons. 451 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,199 Speaker 2: Our goal is to try to find this woman and 452 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 2: hopefully have her lead us to the Hotel Brazil owner. 453 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 2: After six months of searching, we believe we actually found 454 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 2: this woman thanks to the dogged work of Fernando. 455 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 11: It was really hard to find her because her name 456 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 11: he in Brazil, is so common that made my researchers 457 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 11: almost impossible. I did locate a boy who seems like 458 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 11: being her son because the name was exactly the same. 459 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 11: So I decided to go to Facebook and Instagram to 460 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 11: find this boy and to try to discover if the 461 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 11: woman we were looking for was his mother. 462 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 2: Fernando was able to contact him and confirm that he 463 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 2: was indeed the son of the woman we were looking for. 464 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 2: He verified his mother's name and that she'd spent time 465 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 2: in Belgium in the mid nineties. 466 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 11: And then the most important question I asked him was 467 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 11: can you give me your mother's cell phone? And he 468 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 11: was like, okay, I can give you. So I was like, 469 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 11: oh my god. So many months in his search for 470 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 11: this so is it. 471 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 2: This is the voice of the victim. Fernanda located. Will 472 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 2: withhold her name and location as she was initially afraid 473 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 2: to speak about this and I want to respect her privacy. 474 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 2: Fernanda explains what she learned through their many exchanges. 475 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 11: So when she arrived in Belsion, she was thinking that 476 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 11: she was going to work as an anie, because that 477 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 11: was the promise. But once she arrived, she was talking 478 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 11: to a hotel. So she started to live there in 479 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 11: the hotel and walk there in a hotel. But one day, 480 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 11: also in this hotel asked her to sleep with her 481 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 11: and her husband, and she thought that maybe it's something 482 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 11: wrong that because I am here to work as an ani, 483 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 11: but I am in a hotel and right now these 484 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 11: crazy couple are asking me to sleep every day, and 485 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 11: so she told that something strange that and later other 486 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:51,719 Speaker 11: strange situations happened, such as saved her. She keept in Belsion, 487 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 11: had to marry with Belgian and she didn't want to 488 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 11: get married with anybody, but she agreed to meet the guy, 489 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 11: but she doesn't remember unfortunately, how he's lookalike and his name. 490 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 11: But after all that situation, decided to get back home 491 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 11: to get back to Brazil and did not allowed her 492 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 11: to get back, so they took her passport. They forbidden 493 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 11: her to have contact with phones at this time. At 494 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 11: this point she started to find really strange and one 495 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 11: day she could have assessed to a phone and she 496 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 11: called to a place the invasion that she doesn't remember 497 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 11: the name. She asked for help and saw her asking 498 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 11: for help and just say to her that he was 499 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 11: going to kill her, and he was going to throw 500 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 11: her downstairs, and he grabbed her arms and really hurted her. 501 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 11: She was really really afraid of him, and she wanted 502 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 11: to get out of there as quickly as possible. 503 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 2: The fact that this woman was originally afraid to speak 504 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 2: and wishes to remain anonymous after twenty five years speaks 505 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 2: volumes about this man's reputation. Fernanda shared a picture of 506 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 2: Mark the True with her and she said that she'd 507 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 2: never seen him, nor did she ever see children at 508 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 2: the hotel Brazil. It could all truly be a coincidence, 509 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 2: but to find out, I need to speak with the 510 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 2: owner of the hotel Brazil to hear his side of 511 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 2: the story. He didn't seem to be in Brazil, so 512 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 2: I refocused my search on Germany. 513 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 5: H THANKI Chabalis become cutting off. 514 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 2: Of This Man's name and location will remain confidential given 515 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 2: the nature of his work, but I have a lot 516 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 2: of confidence in his ability to find people. 517 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 5: Size. 518 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 2: He explained to me that the man we're looking for 519 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 2: isn't in the system in Germany, and that he'd have 520 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 2: to mobilize other sources to find him, and that it 521 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 2: wouldn't be easy. I kept searching myself in Vain and 522 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 2: was about to give up when I got a text 523 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 2: to call back my contact. He doesn't speak English and 524 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 2: my German isn't all that great, but we managed. He 525 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 2: explained that he had indeed found something, and according to 526 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 2: his info, he could give me an address, which I've 527 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 2: bleeped out here. He said he couldn't promise the man 528 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 2: was there, but that he was pretty sure he'd located him. 529 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 2: It would be a scoop if I could actually locate 530 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 2: this man. The parents of Anne and Efja, the king's 531 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 2: prosecutor Michel Bourle, and several journalists have wanted to question 532 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 2: him for over twenty five years. Although my chances of 533 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 2: actually speaking with him were low, I felt I had 534 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 2: to give it a try. The investigative journalist Douglas d'aconick 535 00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 2: originally broke the story about the hotel Brazil. So I 536 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 2: invited him to join me on a trip to Germany 537 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 2: to find this mysterious man. Okay, they've got a lot 538 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 2: of car noise here, so he jumped at the occasion 539 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 2: and we found ourselves cruising down the Autobahn towards a 540 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:17,959 Speaker 2: destination that will remain unnamed. So summary of this guy 541 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,839 Speaker 2: is that he was a sergeant in the army. 542 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 5: He was certainly. 543 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 12: Involved in being a pimp, had a hotel, got accused 544 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 12: of human trafficking, I was arrested, was convicted of arms 545 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 12: imports I believe importing an illegal arm. 546 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 2: And there's another point, and that's. 547 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 12: The red car that was seen in Gasadonia with the 548 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 12: license plate that starts with NKV, and that this license 549 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,320 Speaker 12: plate is the same first three letters as a license 550 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 12: plate that Mazara was using at that time. 551 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 5: The red car is interesting because. 552 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 8: A few hours before the kidnapping of Julia Minissa, there's 553 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 8: another someone else tries to kidnap two girls in will. 554 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 5: Ye with a red car. Yeah, with a description that 555 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 5: doesn't fit seem to fit. 556 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 2: Much or true. Douglas is talking about the other attempted 557 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,240 Speaker 2: kidnapping of two girls nearby on the same day Julian 558 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 2: Melissa were abducted. In this case, the mother got a 559 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 2: good look at a man driving a red car, but 560 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 2: a description doesn't really match that of Mark the True. 561 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 2: The True has always insisted, and still insists today, that 562 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,280 Speaker 2: he did not carry out the actual kidnapping of Julian Melissa, 563 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 2: but that they were brought to him. The parents of 564 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 2: Julian Melissa still to this day do not know how 565 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 2: their girls were taken or who actually abducted them. 566 00:35:54,080 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 12: So I don't think, you know, I don't think he's 567 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 12: gonna threaten us with violence or anything, but. 568 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 5: Be ready in case he does. 569 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,799 Speaker 12: Because he's a guy who has guns, we know that, 570 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 12: and he has a history of attacking people physically apparently 571 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 12: as well. 572 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 5: So oh great, because he had the dangerous duns. Probably 573 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 5: that's where that's where I run away. 574 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 2: As you've heard a lot of information about the Hotel 575 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 2: Brazil connection, so let me remind you, in the simplest 576 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,239 Speaker 2: of terms, of why this hotel owner may have the 577 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,880 Speaker 2: answers that we've been seeking and why I need to 578 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 2: speak with him First, when Anne and Iffia disappeared, they 579 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 2: were seen in front of his hotel that night. Second, 580 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 2: he had an indirect connection with Mark de True because 581 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 2: his friend who stayed at his hotel that summer, was 582 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,760 Speaker 2: also an acquaintance of De Truz. This friend's license plate 583 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 2: can possibly be tied back to the disappear parents of 584 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 2: Julian and Melissa, therefore potentially linking the two separate abductions. Third, 585 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 2: you recall that when they arrested the True, they found 586 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 2: the hotel Brazil owner's name and number written on a 587 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:17,240 Speaker 2: piece of paper next to the phone. And finally, after 588 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 2: being questioned by police, he disappeared and has never been 589 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 2: seen since. Drove all day long to surprise this guy. 590 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 2: He's probably not home. 591 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 12: Yeah, if that's the case, we're gonna go get a 592 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 12: beer somewhere, which should be gonna do anyway, what you're 593 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 12: gonna do anyway, After a long day of driving, we 594 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 12: went straight to the address we had and decided to 595 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 12: try and make contact right away without any warning. He's 596 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:50,359 Speaker 12: going to do a last check to make sure this 597 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 12: thing is actually recording, and it says it is. 598 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 2: How does my recorder look? 599 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:02,320 Speaker 5: Does it? 600 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 2: Is it is it popping out too much? It was 601 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 2: a relatively quiet neighborhood on a beautiful spring day, and 602 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 2: as luck would have it, he was standing outside in 603 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 2: front of his house as we made our way up 604 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:20,240 Speaker 2: the driveway. Hi, my name is Matt Graves, and I 605 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:33,359 Speaker 2: am looking for you, I believe. When I greeted him 606 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 2: in English, he answered in French, saying that he didn't 607 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 2: understand what I was saying. When I switched to French, 608 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 2: we immediately noticed his expression turned dark and that he 609 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,399 Speaker 2: knew exactly why we were there. He said, Okay, get 610 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 2: out of here. This is private property. 611 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 11: Just say. 612 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,239 Speaker 2: I told him we wanted to ask him questions about 613 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:07,840 Speaker 2: his old friend Mazara, and he kept repeating auvoir or goodbye, 614 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 2: and he said, am I clear? This is private property? 615 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 2: Get out of here. No. I explained that we drove 616 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 2: a long ways to ask him questions and that we 617 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 2: didn't want to accuse him of anything. We just wanted 618 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 2: to hear his side of the story. 619 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:30,799 Speaker 7: Watte. 620 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 2: He kept repeating goodbye and get out of here. So 621 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:40,799 Speaker 2: I asked why he didn't want to talk to us. 622 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 2: The more I insisted, the more angry he became. He 623 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 2: ducked inside of his front door for a few seconds, 624 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 2: and I have to admit I was concerned he might 625 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:50,880 Speaker 2: come back out with a weapon. 626 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 11: Jim, Why, oh what. 627 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 2: Nos your It's just explicated. 628 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:01,399 Speaker 5: Yes. 629 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 11: No. 630 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 2: He yelled loudly that he wasn't interested and said, I'm 631 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 2: going to tell you one last time, get. 632 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:12,439 Speaker 11: Out of here. 633 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 2: I suggested that we could talk in the street, and 634 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 2: he said, do I look like a guy who's going 635 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 2: to meet you in the street. Do you think I'm 636 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 2: an idiot or what that is. 637 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 12: In vain? 638 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,360 Speaker 2: I made it clear that I was there with questions 639 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 2: on the behalf of the parents off and he said, 640 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:48,000 Speaker 2: I don't care. Get out of here. I told him 641 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 2: I wanted to tell the parents the truth, and then 642 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 2: I think he knows it. But there was no use 643 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 2: in continuing. I'm pretty sure it was about to get violent, 644 00:40:55,280 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 2: so we walked away. Well that didn't go so, well, 645 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:03,600 Speaker 2: let's get the fuck out of here before he goes 646 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:04,360 Speaker 2: and gets his gun. 647 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 7: But I would have rather had it talk. 648 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:11,719 Speaker 8: But it was obvious for the first second that. 649 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,400 Speaker 2: Both Douglas and I were confident that we had just 650 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 2: talked face to face with the owner of the hotel. Brazil, 651 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:21,240 Speaker 2: more than two decades after he disappeared. There was no doubt. 652 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,759 Speaker 2: The first thing I did after confirming this man's whereabouts 653 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:28,920 Speaker 2: was to send a copy of the recording to the 654 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 2: parents of Anne Marchal and Effie A. Lumbricks. I got 655 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 2: a WhatsApp message straight away from. 656 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 3: Else Matt High. Oh my god, I have been so 657 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 3: curious all day long and I had to wait until 658 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,920 Speaker 3: three minutes ago to listen to your tape. Well, no, 659 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 3: not welcoming, and as far as I'm concerned, that is personal. 660 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:54,600 Speaker 3: It actually proves what we are thinking, that this person 661 00:41:54,920 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 3: is majorly involved in the case. Anyway, we can talk 662 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,320 Speaker 3: about this whenever you want to to discuss how to proceed. 663 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 3: I hope you had a pretty good journey to Germany 664 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:12,359 Speaker 3: and that anyway you had them, well a normal day 665 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:14,800 Speaker 3: by Matt, have a nice weekend. 666 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 5: We'll talk to you soon. Bye bye. 667 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,280 Speaker 2: I also reached out to the former King's prosecutor, Michel Bourlat. 668 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,680 Speaker 2: He was very surprised to hear that we actually found 669 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,719 Speaker 2: the owner of the hotel Brazil and suggested that if 670 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:31,080 Speaker 2: the case ever gets reopened, his DNA profile should be 671 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:35,840 Speaker 2: collected and compared with any unknown profiles. The challenge is 672 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,239 Speaker 2: that this case is officially closed and apparently it will 673 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,920 Speaker 2: only be reopened if a concrete new element is discovered. 674 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,040 Speaker 2: But if there's one thing we've learned about the surviving victims, 675 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,719 Speaker 2: the victims' families, and the citizens of Belgium, it's that 676 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,840 Speaker 2: they won't simply take no for an answer. Locating the 677 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,760 Speaker 2: owner of the Hotel Brazil is a good first step, 678 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,200 Speaker 2: and while it might not be enough to reopen the case, 679 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:05,440 Speaker 2: it surely warrants some investigative measures by authorities, like an 680 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:10,439 Speaker 2: interview or, as Prosecutor Boulat suggested, a DNA sample. It's 681 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,280 Speaker 2: my belief that the judicial authorities will never act unless 682 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,600 Speaker 2: they're forced to. It's up to us to hold them accountable. 683 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 2: The recent breaking news about Dutch authorities requesting DNA information 684 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 2: from the true file in connection with the Tanya Grooon 685 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:30,319 Speaker 2: case might provide additional momentum in the argument not only 686 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,279 Speaker 2: to retest the evidence, but to seek new evidence. While 687 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 2: this project may be coming to an end, the work 688 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 2: isn't done. I've decided to send all of my findings 689 00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:45,400 Speaker 2: throughout this investigation, including the whereabouts of the Hotel Brazil owner, 690 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 2: with the parents of Julie LeJean, Melissa Rousseau, Anne Marschal 691 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,359 Speaker 2: and Effie Lambriks, so that they can pursue this fight 692 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:57,960 Speaker 2: for justice if they so choose. When I started this project, 693 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,760 Speaker 2: my plan was simply to recount history of this incredible affair. 694 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,719 Speaker 2: I never intended to find myself personally tracking down suspects 695 00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,360 Speaker 2: and having strategy meetings with the former King's prosecutor and 696 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:16,280 Speaker 2: victims families, lawyers and DNA experts. I've become emotionally invested 697 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,640 Speaker 2: in this affair in a way I didn't anticipate. My 698 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,920 Speaker 2: family and friends have suggested on more than one occasion 699 00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 2: that I should take a step back and that I've 700 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 2: unnecessarily put myself at risk. But of all the incredible 701 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:33,399 Speaker 2: aspects of this affair that we've covered and uncovered, there's 702 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:37,840 Speaker 2: one thing that I simply cannot let go. The blood 703 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,279 Speaker 2: of an eight year old girl found on the wall 704 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,080 Speaker 2: that awful dungeon in Masiinelle, mixed with the DNA of 705 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:48,920 Speaker 2: an unidentified person. We shouldn't rest until that person is 706 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:53,200 Speaker 2: identified and held to account. The name of that eight 707 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 2: year old girl whose blood was found on that wall 708 00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,239 Speaker 2: is Julie Lejeanne. I leave you with a trans relation 709 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,000 Speaker 2: of a letter published by her father, Jean de Ni 710 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:11,000 Speaker 2: Lejeune in twenty fifteen. To you, my Julie, my dear, 711 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,000 Speaker 2: It's been twenty years since they've rich you away from me, 712 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:22,160 Speaker 2: twenty years that you're no longer here. You'd be twenty 713 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 2: eight and a half today, maybe you'd be married with children. 714 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,279 Speaker 2: I still see your face at eight years old and 715 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 2: can't imagine what you'd look like today. As I write this, 716 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:39,280 Speaker 2: it's a painful day, just like the seven three hundred 717 00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:45,200 Speaker 2: other days until now. I'm still enraged with those responsible 718 00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:48,719 Speaker 2: for your disappearance, and those who cowardly let you die 719 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:57,320 Speaker 2: in that dungeon, and also those in whom we had confidence, police, gendarmerie, magistrates. 720 00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:02,360 Speaker 2: How many times did we hear trust the professionals? We 721 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,200 Speaker 2: didn't have a choice. I will never forgive the system. 722 00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,560 Speaker 2: It's not in the normal course of nature to lose 723 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 2: a child, and certainly not as you were lost. As 724 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,880 Speaker 2: I write these lines, I wanted you to know that 725 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,919 Speaker 2: although you didn't survive, others have because of the fight 726 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:27,160 Speaker 2: we led and are still leading today. But at what 727 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:34,319 Speaker 2: price the life of my daughter, My Julie, I Love You. 728 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,840 Speaker 2: The Monstra is a production of tenderfoot TV and iHeartRadio, 729 00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 2: hosted and executive produced by Me Matt Graves, produced by 730 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:04,280 Speaker 2: Thomas Resimont of Bubble Sound. Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay 731 00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,520 Speaker 2: are executive producers on the behalf of tenderfoot TV with 732 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,800 Speaker 2: producer Makeup and Vanity Set. Matt Frederick and Alex Williams 733 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,560 Speaker 2: are executive producers on the behalf of iHeartRadio with producer 734 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:20,399 Speaker 2: Trevor Young. Original music by Jay Ragsdale, Sound design by 735 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,600 Speaker 2: Cooper Skinner and Thomas Resimont, mixed and mastered by Cooper Skinner. 736 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:29,480 Speaker 2: Cover design by Trevor Eiler. La Monstra includes archival audio 737 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:35,200 Speaker 2: from Sonoma, RTBF archives and CNN Archives. Special thanks to 738 00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:39,799 Speaker 2: back Media and marketing Station sixteen, Jean Savigna and the 739 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:43,400 Speaker 2: teams at iHeart Radio and Tenderfoot TV. Find us on 740 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:48,080 Speaker 2: social media at Monster Underscore pod. For more podcasts from 741 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:53,000 Speaker 2: iHeart Radio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 742 00:47:53,200 --> 00:48:05,440 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.