1 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ. Holmes present Killer Thriller with your 2 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: host Alisa Donovan. Hey, everybody, Elisa Donovan here and this 3 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: is Killer Thriller. Today is going to be a great 4 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: one because I am joined by my longtime friend and colleague, 5 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: actor David Lasher, and we will revisit two early true 6 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: crime movies of his career, first Cries Unheard, the Donna 7 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: Yaklich story, and then Twisted Desire. Now, both of these 8 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: are based on shocking real cases. First, we're going to 9 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: talk about Cries Unheard, which tells the story of Donna Yaklich, 10 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: whose husband, Pueblo Police detective Dennis Yaklich, was shot and 11 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: killed in nineteen eighty five after Donna alleged years of 12 00:00:55,720 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: physical and emotional abuse during their marriage. Prosecutors aregue that 13 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: Donna arranged the murder, and her defense argued she was 14 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: a battered wife who believed she had no safe way out. 15 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: The case became one of the first in the country 16 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: to put battered woman syndrome front and center in an 17 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: American courtroom, and decades later, it still raises difficult questions 18 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: about abuse, justice, survival, and accountability. David, Hi, friend, Welcome 19 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: to killer thriller. 20 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 2: Hi, how's my body? 21 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: As we said, I don't do anything in this business 22 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 1: without David Lasher, So you had to come on the podcast, 23 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:43,119 Speaker 1: and wonderfully we didn't have to make something up because 24 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 1: you did these two movies that are very much in 25 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: the vein of what we talk about here. So thank 26 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: you for being here. 27 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 2: It's my pleasure. If I could choose anyone in the 28 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 2: world to shadow throughout our careers, it would be you. 29 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: Oh I love that. 30 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 2: Of course, to show up here. And I honestly I 31 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 2: forgot how many movies I did that were based on 32 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 2: true crime. 33 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: It's crazy and this one, so the first one that 34 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: we'll talk about cries unheard. This was in nineteen ninety four, 35 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,799 Speaker 1: and I think it was one of your earliest dramatic roles. 36 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: Do you remember what you thought when you first got 37 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: the script and how old were you? 38 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 2: Yeah? I was I must have been twenty two. And 39 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:33,399 Speaker 2: I do remember because I rewatched the movie last night 40 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 2: and this woman's name, Carla Singer, came up as exec 41 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 2: producer and I remember I was doing a TV series 42 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: for Aaron Spelling in Las Vegas and when that ended 43 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 2: his office called and said, my friend Carla Singer's doing 44 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 2: a movie and there's a part. It only shoots for 45 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 2: a couple of days because it's just you and Jacqueline Smith. 46 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: But they just offered it to me. I think Aaron 47 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 2: Spelling made that connection to him. 48 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: Oh I love that. He was such a great man 49 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: in that like stuff like that. 50 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I do remember, like it was the first 51 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 2: time I had to cry in anything, And I remember 52 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 2: bringing like it must have been my walkman and playing 53 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 2: like Dan Fogelberg or something, and like thinking about sad 54 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:33,519 Speaker 2: things walking around this prison, like what if I can't cry? 55 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: You know, right, it was a big deal. I mean, 56 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: she Jacqueline Smith is you know, she was a huge, 57 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: huge star at the time, and the subject matter was 58 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: really really heavy for so the plot really quick to 59 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: recap is Donna, who's played by Jacqueline Smith. 60 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: Me. 61 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: It's Dennis, this policeman, falls in love with him, they 62 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: get married. Dennis is hooked on steroids. Then you can't 63 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: control his outbursts of sudden rage and he routinely abuses 64 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: her and she eventually is so afraid she hires two 65 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: teenage boys to kill him. So this is like incredibly 66 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 1: adult subject matter and really serious for a young actor. 67 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: Do you were you aware of the depth of those 68 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: issues at the time. 69 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 3: I mean I remember the part about her, you know, 70 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 3: killing my father and then ending up in prison and 71 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 3: leaving me with no parent, right, that was from from 72 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 3: my perspective. 73 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 2: Like, how could you do that? How how could you 74 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 2: not think of that? And that's what she's there explaining 75 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 2: I had no choice and all I all, my my 76 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 2: biggest fear was that I would be separated from you. 77 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean from from my character's perspective, it 78 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 2: was just all how it affected me. 79 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: Right, right, of course, So she's in the film, she's 80 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: trying to That's how it's how it's structured, is these 81 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: conversations with you as her son, and her explaining how 82 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: she got there and how she got to. 83 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 2: Too, Yeah, which I thought was effective because she says, 84 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 2: you're eighteen now, and I wanted to tell you in 85 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 2: my own words that I was going to he was 86 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 2: going to kill me and she had no choice. And 87 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 2: like now watching the movie, like, I don't understand how 88 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 2: women stay in that, and she why she couldn't go 89 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 2: to the police. But he was a police officer, like 90 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 2: a decorated police officer, so nobody was believing her, right. 91 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 2: I mean, she really almost had no choice other than 92 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 2: to like be on the run and just like go 93 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 2: to a country or something. 94 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: Right. Do you feel like, in watching it this time 95 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: as an adult, that you were able to see that, 96 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: but you didn't necessarily get that at the time when 97 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: you were shooting it. 98 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I First of all, I don't know. That 99 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 2: was thirty years ago, so I don't really remember the movie. 100 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,799 Speaker 2: So rewatching it with Jill, we kept saying like, leave, 101 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 2: just leave, right, you know. But she even goes to 102 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 2: that protected women's shelter and he busts in there as 103 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 2: a cop and says, I'm going to shut this place down. 104 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 2: I'm going to get my wife. Like she's not even 105 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 2: safe at a women's shelter and no one believes her, right. 106 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: I mean, it's like, so I found this movie. I 107 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: always think, or sometimes think, you know, watching movies and 108 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: TV shows from the nineties, like oh they're you know, 109 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:40,119 Speaker 1: they're just not as kind of, uh in depth and 110 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: intense as things are now. And I watching this movie, 111 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: I was like, this was hard to watch. I was 112 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 1: kind of surprised at how violent the you know, it's not. 113 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: It's not that they're they're showing some real violence, but 114 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: what is implied is really heavy. 115 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 2: He's rape her, He's over and over. It was awful. Yeah, 116 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 2: I mean, Jill and I were, I mean, yeah, even 117 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: I think it's probably even harsher than most stuff we 118 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 2: see today. 119 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's I was surprised by that. I have 120 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: to say I was legitimately surprised where I felt like, 121 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I can't and there's something she Jacqueline 122 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: Smith is such an angelic you know, no pun intended 123 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: with Charlie's angels, but she really does have like a angel, 124 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: a very angelic presence in her little face. I was like, 125 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this is a lot. 126 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. And he says to her over and over again, 127 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 2: do you know how bad they I want to kill you. 128 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 2: If you take myself away from me again, I will 129 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 2: kill you, he says, I will kill you. I will 130 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 2: kill you. I don't know. And that, you know then 131 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 2: the court case is really was threw me so much 132 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 2: because I think my character says to her, you know, 133 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 2: they told me you would have gotten less time if 134 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 2: you had pulled the trigger, and you got more more 135 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 2: jail time. Than the two guys who did pull the trigger, right, 136 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 2: it made. 137 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: No sense, it didn't, So that's what I was going 138 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: to ask. In the the real sentencing, she was given 139 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: forty years and the two teenagers were given twenty and thirty. 140 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: It's like, and people wonder why women don't report abuse, 141 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: you know, even today, it's like, it's outrageous. I couldn't. 142 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:36,319 Speaker 1: I don't understand. I literally don't understand that sentencing. I 143 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: don't get it. 144 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, And then that graph that information at the end 145 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 2: that men who are charged with murdering their wives get 146 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 2: an average of like sixty seven years, but women who 147 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 2: kill their husbands get like an average of twenty seven 148 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 2: or something. 149 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:57,839 Speaker 1: That is so outrageous. It's like you can't as sometimes 150 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: you see and read these things, hear them in You're like, 151 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: this can't this can't actually be. 152 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 2: Right, Like a woman killing a man is so much 153 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 2: more egregious, right. 154 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: Right, right, It's just well so at the time, this 155 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: case was really one of the first, if not the first, 156 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: case that brought battered women's syndrome into the court system, 157 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: and certainly on television. This was like the first So 158 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: had you even heard of that term at the time. 159 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 2: No, but in the in the movie that, having watched 160 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 2: it last night, they brought the author of that book 161 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 2: into the trial, and then the defense, I mean, the 162 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 2: prosecutor brought someone else to discredit it, saying there's no 163 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 2: such thing as battered wife syndrome. There are men that 164 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 2: get battered too, Like. 165 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: I almost forgot about that of the movie. 166 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, like what like, there is no way Jacqueline 167 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 2: Smith would could possibly be physically threatening to that guy. 168 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:00,559 Speaker 2: There's no there's no. 169 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: Opposite of what right they argue, it's physically impossible. 170 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 2: Oh my god, And he got bigger and bigger. Did 171 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 2: you notice that? 172 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: Yes, he must. 173 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 2: They must have shut down production and then he just 174 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 2: jacked up. He was like terrifying. 175 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: So I was wondering about that if they put like 176 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: I'm sure maybe they put patting on him or in 177 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: the close ups, I'm like, are those loot Farigno's arms? 178 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: And then he goes back to you know, like he 179 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: was really thirty pounds of muscle halfway through the movie, right, 180 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: he was very The whole cast is really quite strong. 181 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: He was very intimidating. And Hilary Swank was in this also. 182 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 2: Oh my god, she's wonderful. 183 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 1: She's so great in this And did you guys, did 184 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: you know each other at the time, had you met before? 185 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: And you didn't have any scenes together? Right? 186 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 2: No, My work was all just me and Jacqueline Smith 187 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 2: sitting across the table from each other, I think for 188 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,559 Speaker 2: two days at a prison and that was it. I 189 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 2: was in and out. But I mean, you know, if 190 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 2: you're going to sit across the table and stare at 191 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 2: someone for two days, it might as well be it 192 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 2: might as well be her. Yes, she's stunning. 193 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that must that's kind of like an 194 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: incredible honor as a young actor. No, to be and 195 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: then it is a great like I'm sure that must 196 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: have helped kind of with your focus, and you know, 197 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: there's very little distraction when you're just there with one 198 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: person and focusing very much on what you're doing. I 199 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: suppose that was helpful in some way. 200 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, And we played it as all one long scene, right, 201 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 2: so it was maybe it was a few pages of 202 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 2: dialogue even though it's cut up throughout the whole movie, 203 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 2: So yeah, it was. I remember it being challenging, even 204 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 2: though it was a couple of days of work. I 205 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 2: remember being like, oh, I gotta I gotta really prepare, 206 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 2: I gotta get their emotions. It was definitely a great 207 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 2: learning experience for me as an actor. 208 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: I'm sure. So this happened. You guys shot the movie 209 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: in ninety four, and he actually was murdered in eighty five, 210 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: and then the trial was a couple of years later, 211 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: so the case had been essentially closed and she was 212 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: in prison. 213 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:42,839 Speaker 2: Whatever ended up happening, did she serve, So she. 214 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 1: Served eighteen years. So they discovered after the fact Dennis 215 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: had a previous wife who died, and at first they 216 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: said she died, you know, of some illness or something sudden, 217 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: and then they reopened that case and they came to 218 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: find that she had died under quote suspicious circumstances, and 219 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 1: so that I mean, they obviously assumed that he murdered her, 220 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: but they could not find any direct evidence to prove that. 221 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 1: And then in two thousand and nine, Donna was released 222 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: on parole after serving sorry twenty one years, including time 223 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,959 Speaker 1: in community corrections facilities. So she's wound up serving twenty 224 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: one years but was released at the age of fifty. 225 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: I believe. 226 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 2: Wow, that's like a whole nother movie, right re entry 227 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 2: into life after that. 228 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: Yes, I mean I think about that. I'm fifty five, 229 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: if I had, like, it's your whole These cases like 230 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 1: really make me so upset as a woman and as 231 00:13:53,240 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 1: the mother of a daughter. How wildly unfair the justice 232 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: system is skewed against women in so many ways, Like 233 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: I can't that she gets abused for years by this 234 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: man and then ghost has to go to prison for it, 235 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: and then you know, and I'm not obviously it brings 236 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: up these really important, complicated questions that can someone be 237 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: both a victim and a criminal? 238 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, I think this story says yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, 239 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 2: she she did have him murder, right, she did conspire 240 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 2: to murder someone, But then all the other circumstances. If 241 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 2: she had killed him while he was beating her and 242 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 2: raping her, it would be one self defense, right. And 243 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 2: if she had gone to the police with all the bruises, 244 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 2: and if the woman at that shelter had filed a 245 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 2: complaint against him, and if all these if anyone had 246 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 2: said anything all along the way, there'd be a record 247 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 2: of this guy's abuse and behavior. But because nothing was 248 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 2: ever said, and then this guy, you know, in the 249 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 2: in the trial, everyone's like he was a great police officer, 250 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 2: an upstanding, you know, a model citizen. I said to Jill, 251 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 2: how can a guy act like that in his home 252 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 2: and everyone outside of the home thinks he's like the 253 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 2: greatest guy? How can that possibly be? Right? 254 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: It probably The answer is it probably can't be. But 255 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: he I love that. The film also has that scene 256 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: where she goes to see the friend in the bar 257 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: and basically says, he's abusing me. You have to help me, 258 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: and he says something like ah, sometimes he gets out 259 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: of hand. 260 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 2: And you're like, and he says, it's not my place. 261 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 2: We don't get into each other's personal lives, like it's 262 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 2: not my it's not my place to say anything like that. Right, 263 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 2: And she has a huge bruised eye. He can see what. 264 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: Happened, right, I mean how, I don't know, how do 265 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: you remedy that? I mean, imagine somebody, what if I 266 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: I come to you, David, and I'm like, Charlie has 267 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: been abusing me. I come like you know, it's like unfathomable. 268 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: Would you sit there and say it's not my business. 269 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 2: No, You'd have a team of people that love you 270 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 2: around you to show you what to do and to 271 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: start ringing alarms. Yeah, maybe that's where that's how times 272 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 2: have changed. 273 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: There's like sort of like a privacy shame factor maybe yeah. 274 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, And now if you saw a woman with a 275 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 2: black eye, everyone that ran into would be like, are 276 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 2: you okay? Did something happen? Right, It's like it's on 277 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 2: our all of our radars now that this actually, you know, 278 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: this does exist. 279 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: But also the fact that it was a small town 280 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: and maybe some of that still exists in smaller communities, 281 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 1: you know, where they don't have as many people to 282 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: go to the people they go to, or the ones 283 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: who are a part of a party in some way. 284 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, I don't. 285 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 2: Right, especially to a man in power, yes, you know 286 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 2: a well you know, a positioned police officer in the town. 287 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 2: But anyway, it takes a community of enablers who just 288 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 2: sit on their hands and do nothing to allow that behavior. 289 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,199 Speaker 1: Right, Yes, that's a great way to say it. 290 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:35,679 Speaker 2: There's a lot of people complicit in watching that and 291 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 2: doing nothing to help this woman. 292 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 1: I completely agree, and I feel like that's one of 293 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: the things. You know, this movie really does not shy 294 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: away from how you know, the violence and the specifics, 295 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 1: but also kind of sort of making the justice system 296 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: accountable and putting you know, I just feel like I 297 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: have to say again, I was so kind of surprised 298 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: by how strong this movie was in a lot of ways. 299 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: You know, I think we sometimes, I maybe it's my 300 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: own bias. I think about TV movies or movies of 301 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: the week from that time as being a little bit 302 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,439 Speaker 1: sort of like soft around the edges, you know, like 303 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 1: let's just tie it all up in a nice way, 304 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 1: And this movie is not that at all. 305 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, especially to aired on a major network. 306 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: A major network. Yeah, I think it was CBS eating. 307 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 2: And raping like America's Sweetheart. It was. It was hard 308 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 2: to watch, yes, but I think important. And one thing 309 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 2: that stuck out to me that made me upset was 310 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 2: how sloppy she was in her planning of how she 311 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 2: was going to kill him. She gets this young idiot 312 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 2: who you know, wants the money, gets his buddy involved. 313 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 2: I mean, there's all kinds of ways this could just 314 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 2: goes completely wrong and come right back there. And sure enough, 315 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 2: they're idiots are talking about it in a diner, and 316 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 2: this girl's right there listening to that. Right goes right 317 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 2: to the police. They get arrested. The first thing that 318 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 2: the kid said was it was Donna within like twenty 319 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 2: four hours. 320 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 1: Right, I mean, it's crazy. And also she Donna got 321 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: involved in the relationship so quickly introduced by the sister 322 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: and then suddenly after you know, and this is like 323 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: one on this podcast to talk about a lot of narcissists, 324 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 1: because often serial killers, Kimmy narcissists and like that kind 325 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:40,360 Speaker 1: of personality and that that behavior of he totally love 326 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: bombs her with all this like just effusive love, sends 327 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 1: the flowers, and then all of a sudden she's moving 328 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 1: in with him and co parenting his stepdaughter. 329 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 2: He uses the step daughter and how much he knows 330 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 2: Donna connects with her to say, I can't be a 331 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 2: mother to her, you would be so good for her, 332 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 2: Like that's how he gets her to like stick around. Right. 333 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:27,959 Speaker 1: It's very manipulative, very very manipulative. Is there something different 334 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 1: about acting and stories when you know that these are 335 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 1: real people and real families lived through these events. 336 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's definitely a responsibility to really try and be 337 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 2: honest about about your work. 338 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I obviously I didn't meet the 339 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 3: kid who played Denny, but I've done other things like that, 340 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 3: like White Squall was real people that those. 341 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 2: That went down, and Ridley Scott had the real like 342 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 2: I played a guy that survived the the storm, and 343 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 2: so I got to meet my character, Scott Wolf got 344 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,439 Speaker 2: to meet his character, Jeff Bridges got to meet the 345 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 2: real captain. And then you get to like, you know, 346 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 2: you get to talk to them about what was it 347 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 2: like after you know, and half your your friends died, 348 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 2: and you know you can get some It's like the 349 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 2: best research you could ever do. Did you see though, 350 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 2: that Joey's little brother played me? 351 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: Yes, so that yes, and and you I mean it's like, yeah, 352 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 1: I can see his face in there, the little he's 353 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 1: like a little tiny kid. And then I went. 354 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 2: Boys with their haircuts a little bowl. 355 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: Hair exactly, and he was so cute. 356 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 2: I mean, he was so cute. 357 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: But you also, your work in this movie is so 358 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: good and it's really heartfelt and empathetic, like you're it's 359 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: you're very good in it. You really are. 360 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 2: Thank you. I I you know, Jill and I watched 361 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 2: it objectively as if you know, and and at the 362 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 2: end I was really like relieve that he says when 363 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 2: you get out I'll be here to pick you up. 364 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 2: Like I don't hate you, I never stop loving you. 365 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 2: I understand. Like God, that was such a like the 366 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 2: woman deserves. 367 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: At least that at least that she has her son 368 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: still totally, I was thinking the same thing, what do 369 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: you what do you hope that people who you know 370 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: discover this movie now take away from it? 371 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,919 Speaker 2: Oh? God, so much. The first thing is, if a 372 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 2: guy shows violence towards you, get the hell out of there, 373 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 2: like right away, before you've got you know, claws and 374 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 2: tentacles around you. You know. I think Oprah always says this, 375 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 2: that Maya Angelou told her the best advice she had 376 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 2: or God was when someone tries to show you who 377 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 2: they are, believe them the first time. 378 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:06,640 Speaker 1: That's right, yep. 379 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 2: You know, if a guy hits you and then comes 380 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 2: crying apologizing it was a one time, I'm you know, no, no, no, 381 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 2: that's who they are. And then the other thing would 382 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 2: be to anyone who's on the outside who sees anything 383 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 2: like that, like help that person, like do something. If 384 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 2: you can't do it, find someone who can. 385 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: Yep. In part two of our conversation, I'll talk to 386 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: David about another unforgettable true crime film. He appeared in 387 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 1: Twisted Desire. It's based on another shocking case involving young love, 388 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: manipulation and murder for hire, but this time the masterminds 389 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 1: were teenagers.