WEBVTT - Let's Make a List 0:00:00.760 --> 0:00:04.359 And now, o muses dwellers in the mansions of Olympus, 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:08.200 tell me for your goddesses and are in all places, 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:11.040 so that you see all things, while we know nothing 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:14.400 but by report? Who were the chiefs and princes of 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:18.200 the Danaans. As for the common soldiers, they were so 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:20.680 that I could not name every single one of them, 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:23.799 though I had ten tongues, and though my voice failed, 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:28.000 not and my heart were of bronze within me, unless you, 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:32.960 o Olympian muses, daughters of Egists bearing Jove, were to 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:37.120 recount them to me. Nevertheless, I will tell the captains 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:45.080 of the ships and all the fleet together, Welcome to 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:54.760 Stuff to Blow your mind from How Stuffworks dot Com. Hey, 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:56.720 welcome to stuff to Blow your mind. My name is 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.520 Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick, and today we're going 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:04.080 to be taught talking about lists. So that opening was 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:07.920 from the Samuel Butler translation of the Iliad, and it 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:11.000 proceeds a section of the Iliad that's often known as 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:14.480 the Catalog of Ships. If you remember, Iliot has a 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:16.840 lot of sections where it kind of lists things. This 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:20.080 is like the most famous list in it um. It's 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:23.120 this long list of the ships and the leaders of 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:26.920 the Achaean expeditionary force called the Denayans in that passage, 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:29.959 and so to get a sense of the many items 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:32.000 of the lists that follows, I think maybe we should 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:33.800 we should read a couple more of them. They've got 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:35.759 a lot of tricky Greek names, but we'll do our 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:39.560 best for them. I'll take the first one. Okay, Escalaphus 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:43.480 and Almana, sons of Mars, led by people that dwelt 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:47.960 in Asplodon and or common Us, the realm of Minnius. 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:51.720 A Styachy, a noble maiden, bore them in the house 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:55.000 of act Or, son of Asius, for she had gone 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:58.080 with Mars secretly into an upper chamber, and he had 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:03.360 lain with her. With these there came thirty ships. It 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:05.840 sounds a big gossip, he doesn't. I thought, you're just 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:07.560 naming ships, and now you're you're having to tell me 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:09.639 who's sleeping with who as well. Well, they're naming like 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:12.000 the captains and the numbers of people and where they 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:13.840 came from. But they also got to slip in a 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:16.639 little bit of like a divine rumor. Yeah, all right, 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:23.079 it continues. The fierce Abantes held Via with its cities Calcus, 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:28.720 Rita Historia, rich in vines, Corinthus upon the sea, and 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:32.440 the rock pushed town of Beam. With them were also 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:37.880 the men of Caristus and Steira. Elephin Or of the 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:40.880 race of Mars, was in command of these. He was 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:46.320 son of Calcodon and chief over all the Abantes. With 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:50.560 him they came fleet afoot and wearing their long hair, behind, 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:53.800 brave warriors who had ever strived to tear open the 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:57.760 corsets of their foes with their long ash and spears. 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:01.400 Of these there came fifty ships, and they that held 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:05.480 the strong city of Athens, the people of great Erecttheus, 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.880 who was born of the soil itself. But Jove's daughter 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:12.639 Minerva fostered them and established him at Athens in her 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:16.800 own rich sanctuary. There year by year the Athenian youths 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:21.079 worship him with sacrifices of bulls and rams. These were 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:26.160 commanded by Menestheus, son of Peteus. No man living could 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:29.360 equal him in the marshaling of chariots and foot soldiers. 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:33.200 Nestor could alone rival him, for he was older. With him, 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:35.760 there came fifty ships, but there are a lot of 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:38.640 these in the poem. Uh. This passage in the Iliad 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:40.920 is interesting because there's a lot of debate about its 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:44.520 origin and authorship, like is it part of the original poem? 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:47.320 Is it a later insertion? Is it maybe a gradual 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:51.400 accretion as audiences of the epic song in every locale 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:54.320 wanted to hear their own local tribe and legendary hero 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:58.520 incorporated into the story. But it's also something that calls 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:01.200 attention to itself simply be cause it is a list. 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:05.080 It's a list of so it's a list and accounting 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:08.760 of things, a list of numbers of ships, of their commanders, 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:11.200 of the numbers of soldiers they brought. And it is 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:13.600 right in the middle of a poem. Uh. And we 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:16.320 might not often think of like a list of forces 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:20.000 as having a very like literary or poetic quality, but 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:22.440 I guess they're They're also scholars who would disagree with that. 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:26.200 For example, Umberto Echo, the medievalist and Simiatitian and author 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:28.440 including of the Name of the Rose, which I just 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:31.680 read for the first time this year, and I loved. Yeah, 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:36.679 but Echo loved lists. He was pretty much obsessed with lists, 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:40.120 and he clearly considered them not like a deviation from 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:43.000 poetic form, but a really valuable form of art and 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:46.440 object of study, So much so that in two thousand nine, 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:50.040 when Echo was invited to curate an exhibition at the Louver, 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:53.680 the subject of the exhibition he put together was the list. 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:56.080 I wish I could have seen that, and umberto Echo 0:04:56.200 --> 0:05:00.520 curated exhibit on lists. But he was interviewed that year 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:03.680 by Der Spiegel and ended up talking a lot about 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:06.040 his fascination with the power of lists. In the interview, 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:08.960 one of the central examples he talks about is the 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:12.279 catalog of ships from the Iliad. So Echo says in 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:15.520 the interview, quote take Homer for example. In the Iliad, 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:18.080 he tries to convey an impression of the size of 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:22.200 the Greek army. At first, he uses similes, and he 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:25.640 quotes as when some great forest fire is raging upon 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:29.080 a mountaintop and its light is seen afar. Even so 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:32.400 as they marched, the gleam of their armor flashed up 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:36.200 onto the firmament of heaven. But Echo continues, but he 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:39.600 isn't satisfied. He can't find the right metaphor, and so 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:42.480 he begs the muses to help him. Then he hits 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:45.880 on the idea of naming many many generals and their ships. 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:49.080 And then later in the interview, he says, quote Homer's 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:51.400 work hits again and again on the tow posts of 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:55.200 the inexpressible. People will always do that. We have always 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:59.480 been fascinated by infinite space, by endless stars, and by galaxies. 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.640 Upon alexis, how does a person feel when looking at 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:05.480 the sky, He thinks that he doesn't have enough tongues 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:09.239 to describe what he sees. Nevertheless, people have never stopped 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:13.679 describing the sky, simply listing what they see. Lovers are 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:17.560 in the same position. They experience a deficiency of language, 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:20.839 a lack of words to express their feelings. But do 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:24.200 lovers ever stop trying to do so? They create lists. 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:26.919 Your eyes are so beautiful, and so is your mouth 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:30.440 and your collarbone. One could go into great detail. And 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:33.120 I think there's something interesting in what Echo says there. 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:35.080 What he says makes me think of other poems like 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:37.839 the Song of Solomon and the Hebrew Bible and uh 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:40.920 like you know, Elizabeth Barrett Browning, how do I love 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:43.440 thee Let me count the ways I love you in 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:45.280 the morning and in the afternoon. I'll love you in 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:48.440 the evening underneath the moon. Oh yeah, I will not 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:51.880 eat it with a goat them, eat it on a boat, 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:55.080 et cetera. Well, even in Sam I Am and the 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:57.600 Green Eggs and Ham, I think there's something going on 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:00.160 there with the use of a list to try to 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:04.159 convey what cannot be expressed in in simple language. The 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:08.040 idea that, like one's discussed, is without bounds. You know, 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:11.400 you have infinite disgust for the idea of green eggs 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:13.559 and ham, and so all you can do is start 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:16.480 listing all the ways you would not eat it, right, 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:20.800 But then ultimately, like each one is, is each argument 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:23.440 against trying the green eggs and ham is just as 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.200 ridiculous is the last, because the whole argument is we'll 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:28.560 try it, give it a try, and eventually he does. 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:30.800 But yeah, there's it's it's there's a lot of listing 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:33.280 in that particular, But there's a lot of listing, I guess, 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:39.160 and kind of lyrical um fiction, lyrical children's books especially. 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:42.040 Another example that came up they will probably bring up 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:45.320 again is the is the night before Christmas the naming 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:48.200 of the reindeer, Like all the reindeer must be named 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:50.920 and listed as part of this. There's there's almost kind 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:54.680 of a magical spell quality to it. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:59.640 the recitation of figures of qualities. Another one I think 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:02.680 of a great list in in poetic form that sort 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:06.840 of conjures a magical environment of inexpressible quality is The 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:10.040 Goblin Market by Christina Rossetti. Yeah, that's a fun one. 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:14.000 We actually helped record a reading of the Goblin Market 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:17.520 for movie. It was then food Stuff, now known as 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.880 a Saver the podcast hosted by a Lauren Vogel bomb 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:22.920 In any Reese Well have to include a link to 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:24.840 that on the landing page for this episode. That was 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:28.000 a really fun episode. But it what what? What is? 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:29.960 What happens in that poem? So the basic plot of 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:32.760 the poem is it's about some a pair of sisters 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.920 who are corrupted by these goblins who are selling sort 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:39.520 of supernatural fruits at a market. But there there are 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:42.360 these long sections where the goblins are just listing all 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:44.520 of the fruits, and it goes on and on and 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:47.800 on more and more fruits, and it eventually has this 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:54.319 cumulative quality where it suggests that the fruits are infinite. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:55.839 there are there are a lot of encind of this, 0:08:55.920 --> 0:09:00.040 a lot in uh, you know, rich descriptions of places 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:04.560 and settings, um where where the author will just just 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:07.920 dive in head first and just describing one thing after 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:10.880 the other, just really really list the sights and sounds 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:14.520 of a particular uh scene. Yeah, exactly. And so it's 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:17.120 interesting that there's uh the use of lists and in 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:21.280 the literary sense, I feel like has completely opposite usages 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:23.920 in which it works both ways. One way is an 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:27.319 author can use a list to sort of suggest infinity 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:31.320 and inexpressibility, like qualities that are beyond measure and beyond 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:34.360 counting can be suggested by listing. But at the same time, 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:39.280 you can use a list to start to make understandable 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:43.480 and make manageable something that otherwise is is completely chaotic 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:46.360 and doesn't make sense to you. Like another quote of 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:49.120 Umberto Echoes in that interview is he says, quote, the 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:52.120 list is the origin of culture. It's part of the 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:54.960 history of art and literature. What does culture want to 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:59.920 make infinity comprehensible? It wants to create order, not always 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:02.559 but often. And how is a human being does one 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:06.360 face infinity? How does one attempt to grasp the incomprehensible 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:10.400 through lists, through catalogs, through collections and museums and through 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:14.120 encyclopedias and dictionaries. Well, certainly if you begin to list 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:16.400 something and it gives you the ability to then break 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:20.840 up that list into consumable parts. Like, for instance, the 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:24.400 list of all organisms on the planet is an ongoing 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:28.440 list that has not yet been finished. Uh, we continually 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:32.400 add new species to it, and yet by subdividing that list, 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:36.240 we have a really good idea of of what the 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:40.880 basic shape of life on planet Earth consists of. Yeah. Yeah, 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:45.240 you can construct an evolutionary tree by making lists of 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:49.280 organisms and then listing their characteristics and then comparing your lists. 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:51.800 You know, I think of making a list is often 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:55.520 similar to um, there's a process at the beginning of 0:10:55.679 --> 0:11:00.040 cleaning a messy room, you know, where at first a 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:02.720 mass is sort of a singular quality. It's just like 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:05.920 a thing that you are faced with, and it has 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:10.160 this unified evil, magic and aura that cannot be penetrated. 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:13.320 And the best way to deal with it is start 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:16.560 just sort of like making a catalog of Okay, what's 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:20.160 actually here, and sometimes you'll make piles of things and stuff. 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:23.720 Essentially you're sort of physically making a list out of 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:28.800 individual elements. From what was originally just a mess. Oh absolutely, 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:31.280 with a with a proper list of a task that 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:35.560 would otherwise seem insurmountable can seem beatable. Be it something 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:39.040 that does have a definite end to it, say, like 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:42.880 a like a long legal process, like say an adoption process. 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:45.559 That was my experience. It was a very very long 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.080 process to reach the endpoint. But you know, you divided 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:50.320 it up, and indeed the first step is just like, well, 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.440 let's look at the list. Likewise, though, we also take 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:55.800 this same thing and we apply it to such situations 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:59.599 as say, human mortality. And if you take just the 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:01.800 bucket list, well, not just that, but say Aubrey De 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:06.520 Gray's approach to actual mortality, like, you know, how can 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:08.880 we beat death? Well we can, Well, let's start by 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:14.559 just dividing it up into winnable avenues, like winnable battles. Yeah, 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:16.920 and even though so Aubrey de Gray, if you're not familiar, 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:21.280 he's like a gerontologist and general a smart guy, I think, 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.080 but he he's tried to address the problem of aging 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:26.880 and said, hey, let's not treat this as an inevitability. 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:30.040 Maybe we can scientifically beat aging and stop you know, 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:33.720 death from Old Age, from Happening Um and the way 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:36.040 he approached it. I think, though a lot of people 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:40.720 disagree with his confidence in his you know, prediction that 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:43.920 we can beat the problem. The way he approached it is, 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:48.000 let's break death and aging down into a list of 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:50.920 all of the things that go wrong. And that's a 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:53.080 that's a brilliant way of looking at it. Even if 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:55.520 he's wrong about what we can do. Just seeing the 0:12:55.800 --> 0:13:00.040 like actual number of problems in aging in new a 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:03.000 rated and named it gives you suddenly this feeling of 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:06.280 power over the problem that you didn't have before. Yeah said, 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:09.600 you start thinking, well, maybe this wizardy looking guy does 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:12.520 have a point. Maybe we can beat death death It 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:14.520 isn't isn't that big of a deal. He does have 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:17.880 a magnificent beard, he's like he's like a resputant of life. 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:21.080 And so I think maybe this should lead us to 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:24.520 make a distinction. That's an important distinction when it comes 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:27.880 to lists. I was thinking about, like finite versus infinite games. 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:31.920 There's also a big difference in in the way lists 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:34.480 play roles in our lives depending on whether they're finite 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:38.680 or infinite. Lists. Like we make finite lists of things. 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:41.680 I think in order to better understand something, so like 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:45.720 a list of organs in the human body. And then meanwhile, 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:48.400 you make an infinite list in order to try to 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:51.839 begin to address an infinite problem, like, you know, how 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:54.600 do you express an unbounded feeling of love for somebody? 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:57.720 You start listing the ways or how do you live 0:13:57.840 --> 0:13:59.720 your life? Well, one way to do that is to 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:01.800 try to make it to do list. Ideally, a to 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:04.600 do list is not something where you're like, Okay, I'm 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:06.640 done with all my tasks and I can just stop 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:10.320 living now. It's just something that you're trying to prioritize 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:13.760 the whole future you have in front of you. I 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.760 have to admit that the the idea of infinite lists 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:19.800 here is is maybe a little confusing to me, because 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:22.000 I'm thinking, like, is there really an infinite number of 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:25.120 reasons that once they loves their spouse? I mean, there's 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:28.560 there's probably a finite list of things. I mean, the 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:31.960 the human experience is only so varied, right, Well, I 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:34.560 mean you could keep breaking down reasons into smaller and 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:37.480 smaller sub reasons. I guess, so, yeah, that's right. You 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:39.720 could sort of of what you know, a foot race 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:43.960 with Achilles. Yeah, you can pull that number off. I mean, likewise, 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:46.560 you could say the stars in the sky, to a 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:49.760 certain extent, the human experience, there's sort of a small 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:53.880 eye infinity there, though of course there is there is 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:58.320 there is a definite, finite number out there. So I mean, 0:14:58.320 --> 0:14:59.680 in the same way you could say there is no 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:02.080 such thing is an infinite game, because eventually we'll have 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:04.080 the heat death of the universe and nothing can go 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:06.920 on forever. But I mean things that are things that 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:11.200 are for your purposes infinite, like you never to do 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:14.280 list is something you might cross all of the items 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:16.240 off of, but that doesn't mean you've run out of 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:19.240 things to do, all right, fair enough, fair enough. But 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:21.560 then on on the other side of lists, one of 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:23.880 the things that I often think about is how how 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:27.440 funny it often is to me, just how funny listicals 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:31.120 are to me. We've both worked in web publishing, and 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:33.480 oh man, there was a period. I mean, I guess 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:36.440 listicles are actually still popular, like they do well on 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:39.960 YouTube and end on, you know, on social media and 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:41.960 all that. But but back in the day, I remember, 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:45.720 especially like for Google Search and like homepage optimization, trying 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:48.600 to make trying to make the house Stuff Works homepage clicky. 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:52.040 It was. It was listicals all the way down. Oh yes, yes, 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:54.040 and some of them are were quite good. I remember 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:57.360 even when we're putting out a bunch of towing articles 0:15:57.360 --> 0:15:59.440 at the time, there was one top ten that they 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:02.640 spun out of that effort to a top ten Heaviest 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:06.360 Things Moved by Man, which is a fun little article. Yeah, 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:08.880 oh yeah, yeah, I mean I can enjoy good listical. 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:11.840 I know, Robert. I think even the past expressed your 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:14.840 love for for a good cracked listical, right, Yeah, I 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:16.960 have enjoyed some of some of those cracked listicals in 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:20.000 the past. I also really like some of the um 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:23.040 the ClickHole listicles. Those are amazing. Like I think it's 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:26.040 like five or ten signs that your therapist is about 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:28.440 to go to six flags after your session, you know, 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:30.840 stuff like that I'm always on board for. Well, that's 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.760 what ClickHole is great for, is like just highlighting the 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:38.440 bear absurdity that lies underneath the Internet content strategies. But yeah, 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:41.280 I remember back in the day, like around two thousand 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:44.560 and ten, some of the listicles going up on Discovery 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:47.760 and TLC were so funny to me. It was like 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:51.800 it would be things, you know, like ten backyard games 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:55.680 your Golden Retriever will love. Yeah, I think so. So 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:58.560 there are a few different appealing aspects of the top ten, right, 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:02.560 I Mean A big one is that it's easily absorbed, 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:04.920 the ideas that I'm I'm not I'm in a hurry. 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:06.919 Maybe I don't even really want to read this article, 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:09.760 but it's a top ten. So at the very least 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:12.639 I could scan the ten items and I kind of 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:15.240 instantly want to know what made the list and what didn't. 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:18.080 I think that's very Yeah, I think that's exactly right. 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:21.639 Scannability is a big part of it, right, especially with 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:23.399 things that are because so there are different types of 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:26.840 top ten's obviously or ten or list based things. Sometimes 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:30.399 there are a process. For instance, the so many wiki 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:33.040 how articles that are a list of ten steps to 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:35.679 do something including there there. I found one the other 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:38.399 day for faking your own death, so it's everything from 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:41.600 fixing a toilet to faking your own death. My favorite 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:43.879 eh how article of all time that I ever found, 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:46.040 I think I checked recently. It's not still up, but 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:52.040 it was how to pray for money. Um, yeah, so 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:53.960 that so there's that area, and then there's the ranking 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:58.720 of things like the ten best superhero movies, um or, 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:00.600 and so you want to click on that because you 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:04.000 just want to Maybe you're just you're comagined and you 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:08.040 just want to notice what they didn't include and and 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:11.680 shame them for what they did include. Well, the top 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:15.760 ten ranking thing is I think popular for multiple reasons. 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:17.919 Number one, I mean, humans, even though we don't like 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:20.280 to admit this, we clearly look to other people to 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:23.240 form our own tastes, right, you know, we we start 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:25.800 to think, I should have my own ideas of what's 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:28.919 the top ten movies in next category, and then like 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:32.480 looking at other people's ideas gives you something to react to, 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:35.240 either to base yours on theirs, or to react against 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:37.399 it or whatever. But it's also popular, I think for 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.560 the same reason that like You're doing it wrong articles 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:45.199 are popular. It feels like an aggressive, opinionated statement that 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:49.040 is highly tempting to argue with. Right, yeah, and and 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:52.760 certainly sharing like five five films that shaped you or whatever, 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:55.120 you know, whatever the current version of it that's going 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:58.920 around on social media is a great statement of self. 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:01.120 You know, it's say it's it's a way of sort 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:05.120 of summing up your character in a selection of films 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:07.640 or books or albums or what have you. Yes, at 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:10.320 the same time that it's easy to share by it's 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:12.920 easy for audience members to share because you know, it's 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:15.600 fun to say, I disagree. How could they leave off 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:19.200 you forgot X? Yeah? We we could. I mean, we 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:21.800 even we don't do top ten episodes, but one of 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:24.399 the most common types of emails we get is I 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:28.040 can't believe you forgot to mention X when we're like 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:31.720 talking about, you know, giving a selection of examples of something. 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:34.320 Whenever we do a list. Yeah, yeah, I mean, and 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:37.280 sometimes we do really forget to mention things, or we 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:38.560 you know, we have them in the notes and we 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:41.800 don't mention. The other times we just don't know about them. Yeah, 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:44.320 that's the the other problem about trying to make any 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:47.639 kind of fully inclusive list. Yeah. So, I think for 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:49.560 the rest of this episode, we we should try to 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:52.359 think about what what is the role of the list 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:54.479 in human culture? And for a couple of things we're 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:56.280 going to focus on. I think one should be the 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:59.440 to do list and the psychological power of the to 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:02.080 do list. The other one would be the idea of 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:05.439 a list as a type of literature media. Why is 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:08.520 it so popular? Why why does it work? Yeah, I 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:11.199 think it's interesting to think of lis even just purely 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:14.439 in an entertainment um and and even outside of the 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:20.359 necessity their necessity and things like crafting, mixology, cooking, building 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:22.000 a Lego kid. I mean, those are the things where 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:24.359 you you need a series of steps to follow in 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:26.840 order to get it right. Oh man, what is the 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:31.160 Is there like a visual version of a s MR? 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:33.960 I don't know what when you just get like goose bumps, 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:36.960 like seeing an image of a toy from your childhood. 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:40.399 For me, it would be Lego instructions and they've only 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:42.880 gotten better, Joe. That's the thing when when I read 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:47.639 let current Lego kit instructions versus older Lego instructions, that 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:50.760 they're just they's they're so clear and precise, that can 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:54.120 follow them so easily. Um, they should do instructions for everything. 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:56.760 You're just mocking me, like I should leave the studio 0:20:56.800 --> 0:20:58.960 and go buy some Legos to play with right now. 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:01.440 You should go buy yourself Hogwarts and and have at it. 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:03.280 That one. That one has a lot of steps to it. 0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:05.520 I keep saying I think one of the best things 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:07.320 about having kids has got to be that you get 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:09.720 to play with legos again. Yeah, and then step on 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:14.120 legos again. The Harry Potter sorting hat, by the way, 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:17.320 specially painful to step on. That's probably the most painful 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:22.400 lego I've ever stepped up anyway. Outside of children's play things, 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:25.359 you also find a lot of lists in um you know, 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:28.919 in in in and say video games for all ages. Well, 0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:32.040 a lot of video games are highly acquisitive in nature, 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:34.879 you know, you accumulate stuff in them. Oh yeah, Like 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:37.760 the main example, UM I I have right now is 0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:41.000