1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:04,359 Speaker 1: And now, o muses dwellers in the mansions of Olympus, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: tell me for your goddesses and are in all places, 3 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: so that you see all things, while we know nothing 4 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: but by report? Who were the chiefs and princes of 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: the Danaans. As for the common soldiers, they were so 6 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: that I could not name every single one of them, 7 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,799 Speaker 1: though I had ten tongues, and though my voice failed, 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: not and my heart were of bronze within me, unless you, 9 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: o Olympian muses, daughters of Egists bearing Jove, were to 10 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: recount them to me. Nevertheless, I will tell the captains 11 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: of the ships and all the fleet together, Welcome to 12 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your mind from How Stuffworks dot Com. Hey, 13 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: welcome to stuff to Blow your mind. My name is 14 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick, and today we're going 15 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: to be taught talking about lists. So that opening was 16 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: from the Samuel Butler translation of the Iliad, and it 17 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: proceeds a section of the Iliad that's often known as 18 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: the Catalog of Ships. If you remember, Iliot has a 19 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: lot of sections where it kind of lists things. This 20 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: is like the most famous list in it um. It's 21 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: this long list of the ships and the leaders of 22 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: the Achaean expeditionary force called the Denayans in that passage, 23 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: and so to get a sense of the many items 24 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: of the lists that follows, I think maybe we should 25 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: we should read a couple more of them. They've got 26 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:35,759 Speaker 1: a lot of tricky Greek names, but we'll do our 27 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: best for them. I'll take the first one. Okay, Escalaphus 28 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: and Almana, sons of Mars, led by people that dwelt 29 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: in Asplodon and or common Us, the realm of Minnius. 30 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: A Styachy, a noble maiden, bore them in the house 31 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: of act Or, son of Asius, for she had gone 32 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: with Mars secretly into an upper chamber, and he had 33 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: lain with her. With these there came thirty ships. It 34 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: sounds a big gossip, he doesn't. I thought, you're just 35 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: naming ships, and now you're you're having to tell me 36 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 1: who's sleeping with who as well. Well, they're naming like 37 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: the captains and the numbers of people and where they 38 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: came from. But they also got to slip in a 39 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 1: little bit of like a divine rumor. Yeah, all right, 40 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:23,079 Speaker 1: it continues. The fierce Abantes held Via with its cities Calcus, 41 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: Rita Historia, rich in vines, Corinthus upon the sea, and 42 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: the rock pushed town of Beam. With them were also 43 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: the men of Caristus and Steira. Elephin Or of the 44 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: race of Mars, was in command of these. He was 45 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: son of Calcodon and chief over all the Abantes. With 46 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: him they came fleet afoot and wearing their long hair, behind, 47 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 1: brave warriors who had ever strived to tear open the 48 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: corsets of their foes with their long ash and spears. 49 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: Of these there came fifty ships, and they that held 50 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: the strong city of Athens, the people of great Erecttheus, 51 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: who was born of the soil itself. But Jove's daughter 52 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: Minerva fostered them and established him at Athens in her 53 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: own rich sanctuary. There year by year the Athenian youths 54 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 1: worship him with sacrifices of bulls and rams. These were 55 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: commanded by Menestheus, son of Peteus. No man living could 56 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: equal him in the marshaling of chariots and foot soldiers. 57 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: Nestor could alone rival him, for he was older. With him, 58 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: there came fifty ships, but there are a lot of 59 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: these in the poem. Uh. This passage in the Iliad 60 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: is interesting because there's a lot of debate about its 61 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: origin and authorship, like is it part of the original poem? 62 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: Is it a later insertion? Is it maybe a gradual 63 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: accretion as audiences of the epic song in every locale 64 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: wanted to hear their own local tribe and legendary hero 65 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: incorporated into the story. But it's also something that calls 66 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: attention to itself simply be cause it is a list. 67 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: It's a list of so it's a list and accounting 68 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: of things, a list of numbers of ships, of their commanders, 69 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: of the numbers of soldiers they brought. And it is 70 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: right in the middle of a poem. Uh. And we 71 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: might not often think of like a list of forces 72 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: as having a very like literary or poetic quality, but 73 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: I guess they're They're also scholars who would disagree with that. 74 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: For example, Umberto Echo, the medievalist and Simiatitian and author 75 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: including of the Name of the Rose, which I just 76 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: read for the first time this year, and I loved. Yeah, 77 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:36,679 Speaker 1: but Echo loved lists. He was pretty much obsessed with lists, 78 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: and he clearly considered them not like a deviation from 79 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: poetic form, but a really valuable form of art and 80 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: object of study, So much so that in two thousand nine, 81 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: when Echo was invited to curate an exhibition at the Louver, 82 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: the subject of the exhibition he put together was the list. 83 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: I wish I could have seen that, and umberto Echo 84 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: curated exhibit on lists. But he was interviewed that year 85 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: by Der Spiegel and ended up talking a lot about 86 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 1: his fascination with the power of lists. In the interview, 87 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: one of the central examples he talks about is the 88 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 1: catalog of ships from the Iliad. So Echo says in 89 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: the interview, quote take Homer for example. In the Iliad, 90 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: he tries to convey an impression of the size of 91 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: the Greek army. At first, he uses similes, and he 92 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: quotes as when some great forest fire is raging upon 93 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: a mountaintop and its light is seen afar. Even so 94 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: as they marched, the gleam of their armor flashed up 95 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: onto the firmament of heaven. But Echo continues, but he 96 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: isn't satisfied. He can't find the right metaphor, and so 97 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: he begs the muses to help him. Then he hits 98 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: on the idea of naming many many generals and their ships. 99 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: And then later in the interview, he says, quote Homer's 100 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: work hits again and again on the tow posts of 101 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: the inexpressible. People will always do that. We have always 102 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: been fascinated by infinite space, by endless stars, and by galaxies. 103 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: Upon alexis, how does a person feel when looking at 104 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 1: the sky, He thinks that he doesn't have enough tongues 105 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,239 Speaker 1: to describe what he sees. Nevertheless, people have never stopped 106 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,679 Speaker 1: describing the sky, simply listing what they see. Lovers are 107 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: in the same position. They experience a deficiency of language, 108 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: a lack of words to express their feelings. But do 109 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: lovers ever stop trying to do so? They create lists. 110 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:26,919 Speaker 1: Your eyes are so beautiful, and so is your mouth 111 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: and your collarbone. One could go into great detail. And 112 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: I think there's something interesting in what Echo says there. 113 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: What he says makes me think of other poems like 114 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: the Song of Solomon and the Hebrew Bible and uh 115 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: like you know, Elizabeth Barrett Browning, how do I love 116 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: thee Let me count the ways I love you in 117 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 1: the morning and in the afternoon. I'll love you in 118 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: the evening underneath the moon. Oh yeah, I will not 119 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: eat it with a goat them, eat it on a boat, 120 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: et cetera. Well, even in Sam I Am and the 121 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 1: Green Eggs and Ham, I think there's something going on 122 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: there with the use of a list to try to 123 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 1: convey what cannot be expressed in in simple language. The 124 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: idea that, like one's discussed, is without bounds. You know, 125 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: you have infinite disgust for the idea of green eggs 126 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:13,559 Speaker 1: and ham, and so all you can do is start 127 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: listing all the ways you would not eat it, right, 128 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: But then ultimately, like each one is, is each argument 129 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: against trying the green eggs and ham is just as 130 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: ridiculous is the last, because the whole argument is we'll 131 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: try it, give it a try, and eventually he does. 132 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: But yeah, there's it's it's there's a lot of listing 133 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: in that particular, But there's a lot of listing, I guess, 134 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: and kind of lyrical um fiction, lyrical children's books especially. 135 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: Another example that came up they will probably bring up 136 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: again is the is the night before Christmas the naming 137 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: of the reindeer, Like all the reindeer must be named 138 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: and listed as part of this. There's there's almost kind 139 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: of a magical spell quality to it. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, 140 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: the recitation of figures of qualities. Another one I think 141 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: of a great list in in poetic form that sort 142 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: of conjures a magical environment of inexpressible quality is The 143 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: Goblin Market by Christina Rossetti. Yeah, that's a fun one. 144 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: We actually helped record a reading of the Goblin Market 145 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: for movie. It was then food Stuff, now known as 146 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: a Saver the podcast hosted by a Lauren Vogel bomb 147 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: In any Reese Well have to include a link to 148 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: that on the landing page for this episode. That was 149 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: a really fun episode. But it what what? What is? 150 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: What happens in that poem? So the basic plot of 151 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: the poem is it's about some a pair of sisters 152 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: who are corrupted by these goblins who are selling sort 153 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: of supernatural fruits at a market. But there there are 154 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: these long sections where the goblins are just listing all 155 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: of the fruits, and it goes on and on and 156 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: on more and more fruits, and it eventually has this 157 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 1: cumulative quality where it suggests that the fruits are infinite. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 158 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 1: there are there are a lot of encind of this, 159 00:08:55,920 --> 00:09:00,040 Speaker 1: a lot in uh, you know, rich descriptions of places 160 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: and settings, um where where the author will just just 161 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: dive in head first and just describing one thing after 162 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: the other, just really really list the sights and sounds 163 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: of a particular uh scene. Yeah, exactly. And so it's 164 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: interesting that there's uh the use of lists and in 165 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: the literary sense, I feel like has completely opposite usages 166 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: in which it works both ways. One way is an 167 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,319 Speaker 1: author can use a list to sort of suggest infinity 168 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: and inexpressibility, like qualities that are beyond measure and beyond 169 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: counting can be suggested by listing. But at the same time, 170 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: you can use a list to start to make understandable 171 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: and make manageable something that otherwise is is completely chaotic 172 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: and doesn't make sense to you. Like another quote of 173 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: Umberto Echoes in that interview is he says, quote, the 174 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: list is the origin of culture. It's part of the 175 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: history of art and literature. What does culture want to 176 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: make infinity comprehensible? It wants to create order, not always 177 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 1: but often. And how is a human being does one 178 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: face infinity? How does one attempt to grasp the incomprehensible 179 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: through lists, through catalogs, through collections and museums and through 180 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: encyclopedias and dictionaries. Well, certainly if you begin to list 181 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: something and it gives you the ability to then break 182 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: up that list into consumable parts. Like, for instance, the 183 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: list of all organisms on the planet is an ongoing 184 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: list that has not yet been finished. Uh, we continually 185 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: add new species to it, and yet by subdividing that list, 186 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: we have a really good idea of of what the 187 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: basic shape of life on planet Earth consists of. Yeah. Yeah, 188 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: you can construct an evolutionary tree by making lists of 189 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: organisms and then listing their characteristics and then comparing your lists. 190 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: You know, I think of making a list is often 191 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: similar to um, there's a process at the beginning of 192 00:10:55,679 --> 00:11:00,040 Speaker 1: cleaning a messy room, you know, where at first a 193 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: mass is sort of a singular quality. It's just like 194 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: a thing that you are faced with, and it has 195 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: this unified evil, magic and aura that cannot be penetrated. 196 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: And the best way to deal with it is start 197 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: just sort of like making a catalog of Okay, what's 198 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: actually here, and sometimes you'll make piles of things and stuff. 199 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: Essentially you're sort of physically making a list out of 200 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: individual elements. From what was originally just a mess. Oh absolutely, 201 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: with a with a proper list of a task that 202 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 1: would otherwise seem insurmountable can seem beatable. Be it something 203 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: that does have a definite end to it, say, like 204 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: a like a long legal process, like say an adoption process. 205 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 1: That was my experience. It was a very very long 206 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: process to reach the endpoint. But you know, you divided 207 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: it up, and indeed the first step is just like, well, 208 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: let's look at the list. Likewise, though, we also take 209 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: this same thing and we apply it to such situations 210 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,599 Speaker 1: as say, human mortality. And if you take just the 211 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: bucket list, well, not just that, but say Aubrey De 212 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: Gray's approach to actual mortality, like, you know, how can 213 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: we beat death? Well we can, Well, let's start by 214 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 1: just dividing it up into winnable avenues, like winnable battles. Yeah, 215 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: and even though so Aubrey de Gray, if you're not familiar, 216 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: he's like a gerontologist and general a smart guy, I think, 217 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: but he he's tried to address the problem of aging 218 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: and said, hey, let's not treat this as an inevitability. 219 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: Maybe we can scientifically beat aging and stop you know, 220 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: death from Old Age, from Happening Um and the way 221 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: he approached it. I think, though a lot of people 222 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: disagree with his confidence in his you know, prediction that 223 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: we can beat the problem. The way he approached it is, 224 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: let's break death and aging down into a list of 225 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: all of the things that go wrong. And that's a 226 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: that's a brilliant way of looking at it. Even if 227 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: he's wrong about what we can do. Just seeing the 228 00:12:55,800 --> 00:13:00,040 Speaker 1: like actual number of problems in aging in new a 229 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: rated and named it gives you suddenly this feeling of 230 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: power over the problem that you didn't have before. Yeah said, 231 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: you start thinking, well, maybe this wizardy looking guy does 232 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: have a point. Maybe we can beat death death It 233 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: isn't isn't that big of a deal. He does have 234 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: a magnificent beard, he's like he's like a resputant of life. 235 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: And so I think maybe this should lead us to 236 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: make a distinction. That's an important distinction when it comes 237 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: to lists. I was thinking about, like finite versus infinite games. 238 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: There's also a big difference in in the way lists 239 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: play roles in our lives depending on whether they're finite 240 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: or infinite. Lists. Like we make finite lists of things. 241 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 1: I think in order to better understand something, so like 242 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: a list of organs in the human body. And then meanwhile, 243 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: you make an infinite list in order to try to 244 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,839 Speaker 1: begin to address an infinite problem, like, you know, how 245 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: do you express an unbounded feeling of love for somebody? 246 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: You start listing the ways or how do you live 247 00:13:57,840 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: your life? Well, one way to do that is to 248 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: try to make it to do list. Ideally, a to 249 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: do list is not something where you're like, Okay, I'm 250 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: done with all my tasks and I can just stop 251 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 1: living now. It's just something that you're trying to prioritize 252 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: the whole future you have in front of you. I 253 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: have to admit that the the idea of infinite lists 254 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: here is is maybe a little confusing to me, because 255 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, like, is there really an infinite number of 256 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: reasons that once they loves their spouse? I mean, there's 257 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 1: there's probably a finite list of things. I mean, the 258 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: the human experience is only so varied, right, Well, I 259 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: mean you could keep breaking down reasons into smaller and 260 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: smaller sub reasons. I guess, so, yeah, that's right. You 261 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: could sort of of what you know, a foot race 262 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: with Achilles. Yeah, you can pull that number off. I mean, likewise, 263 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: you could say the stars in the sky, to a 264 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: certain extent, the human experience, there's sort of a small 265 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: eye infinity there, though of course there is there is 266 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: there is a definite, finite number out there. So I mean, 267 00:14:58,320 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: in the same way you could say there is no 268 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: such thing is an infinite game, because eventually we'll have 269 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: the heat death of the universe and nothing can go 270 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: on forever. But I mean things that are things that 271 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: are for your purposes infinite, like you never to do 272 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: list is something you might cross all of the items 273 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: off of, but that doesn't mean you've run out of 274 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: things to do, all right, fair enough, fair enough. But 275 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: then on on the other side of lists, one of 276 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: the things that I often think about is how how 277 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: funny it often is to me, just how funny listicals 278 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: are to me. We've both worked in web publishing, and 279 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: oh man, there was a period. I mean, I guess 280 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: listicles are actually still popular, like they do well on 281 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: YouTube and end on, you know, on social media and 282 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: all that. But but back in the day, I remember, 283 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: especially like for Google Search and like homepage optimization, trying 284 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: to make trying to make the house Stuff Works homepage clicky. 285 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: It was. It was listicals all the way down. Oh yes, yes, 286 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: and some of them are were quite good. I remember 287 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: even when we're putting out a bunch of towing articles 288 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: at the time, there was one top ten that they 289 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: spun out of that effort to a top ten Heaviest 290 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: Things Moved by Man, which is a fun little article. Yeah, 291 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, I mean I can enjoy good listical. 292 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: I know, Robert. I think even the past expressed your 293 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: love for for a good cracked listical, right, Yeah, I 294 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: have enjoyed some of some of those cracked listicals in 295 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: the past. I also really like some of the um 296 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: the ClickHole listicles. Those are amazing. Like I think it's 297 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: like five or ten signs that your therapist is about 298 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: to go to six flags after your session, you know, 299 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: stuff like that I'm always on board for. Well, that's 300 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: what ClickHole is great for, is like just highlighting the 301 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: bear absurdity that lies underneath the Internet content strategies. But yeah, 302 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: I remember back in the day, like around two thousand 303 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: and ten, some of the listicles going up on Discovery 304 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: and TLC were so funny to me. It was like 305 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: it would be things, you know, like ten backyard games 306 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: your Golden Retriever will love. Yeah, I think so. So 307 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: there are a few different appealing aspects of the top ten, right, 308 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: I Mean A big one is that it's easily absorbed, 309 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: the ideas that I'm I'm not I'm in a hurry. 310 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 1: Maybe I don't even really want to read this article, 311 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: but it's a top ten. So at the very least 312 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 1: I could scan the ten items and I kind of 313 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: instantly want to know what made the list and what didn't. 314 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: I think that's very Yeah, I think that's exactly right. 315 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: Scannability is a big part of it, right, especially with 316 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: things that are because so there are different types of 317 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: top ten's obviously or ten or list based things. Sometimes 318 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 1: there are a process. For instance, the so many wiki 319 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: how articles that are a list of ten steps to 320 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:35,679 Speaker 1: do something including there there. I found one the other 321 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: day for faking your own death, so it's everything from 322 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: fixing a toilet to faking your own death. My favorite 323 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 1: eh how article of all time that I ever found, 324 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: I think I checked recently. It's not still up, but 325 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: it was how to pray for money. Um, yeah, so 326 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: that so there's that area, and then there's the ranking 327 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: of things like the ten best superhero movies, um or, 328 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: and so you want to click on that because you 329 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: just want to Maybe you're just you're comagined and you 330 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: just want to notice what they didn't include and and 331 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 1: shame them for what they did include. Well, the top 332 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: ten ranking thing is I think popular for multiple reasons. 333 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 1: Number one, I mean, humans, even though we don't like 334 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: to admit this, we clearly look to other people to 335 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: form our own tastes, right, you know, we we start 336 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: to think, I should have my own ideas of what's 337 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,919 Speaker 1: the top ten movies in next category, and then like 338 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: looking at other people's ideas gives you something to react to, 339 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: either to base yours on theirs, or to react against 340 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 1: it or whatever. But it's also popular, I think for 341 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: the same reason that like You're doing it wrong articles 342 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 1: are popular. It feels like an aggressive, opinionated statement that 343 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: is highly tempting to argue with. Right, yeah, and and 344 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: certainly sharing like five five films that shaped you or whatever, 345 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 1: you know, whatever the current version of it that's going 346 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: around on social media is a great statement of self. 347 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: You know, it's say it's it's a way of sort 348 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:05,120 Speaker 1: of summing up your character in a selection of films 349 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 1: or books or albums or what have you. Yes, at 350 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: the same time that it's easy to share by it's 351 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 1: easy for audience members to share because you know, it's 352 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: fun to say, I disagree. How could they leave off 353 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: you forgot X? Yeah? We we could. I mean, we 354 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: even we don't do top ten episodes, but one of 355 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 1: the most common types of emails we get is I 356 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: can't believe you forgot to mention X when we're like 357 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: talking about, you know, giving a selection of examples of something. 358 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: Whenever we do a list. Yeah, yeah, I mean, and 359 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: sometimes we do really forget to mention things, or we 360 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: you know, we have them in the notes and we 361 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: don't mention. The other times we just don't know about them. Yeah, 362 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: that's the the other problem about trying to make any 363 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: kind of fully inclusive list. Yeah. So, I think for 364 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: the rest of this episode, we we should try to 365 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 1: think about what what is the role of the list 366 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,479 Speaker 1: in human culture? And for a couple of things we're 367 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: going to focus on. I think one should be the 368 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: to do list and the psychological power of the to 369 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: do list. The other one would be the idea of 370 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 1: a list as a type of literature media. Why is 371 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: it so popular? Why why does it work? Yeah, I 372 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,199 Speaker 1: think it's interesting to think of lis even just purely 373 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,439 Speaker 1: in an entertainment um and and even outside of the 374 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: necessity their necessity and things like crafting, mixology, cooking, building 375 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: a Lego kid. I mean, those are the things where 376 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: you you need a series of steps to follow in 377 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: order to get it right. Oh man, what is the 378 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: Is there like a visual version of a s MR? 379 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: I don't know what when you just get like goose bumps, 380 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: like seeing an image of a toy from your childhood. 381 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: For me, it would be Lego instructions and they've only 382 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 1: gotten better, Joe. That's the thing when when I read 383 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 1: let current Lego kit instructions versus older Lego instructions, that 384 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: they're just they's they're so clear and precise, that can 385 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,120 Speaker 1: follow them so easily. Um, they should do instructions for everything. 386 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: You're just mocking me, like I should leave the studio 387 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: and go buy some Legos to play with right now. 388 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 1: You should go buy yourself Hogwarts and and have at it. 389 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: That one. That one has a lot of steps to it. 390 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: I keep saying I think one of the best things 391 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: about having kids has got to be that you get 392 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: to play with legos again. Yeah, and then step on 393 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: legos again. The Harry Potter sorting hat, by the way, 394 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: specially painful to step on. That's probably the most painful 395 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 1: lego I've ever stepped up anyway. Outside of children's play things, 396 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: you also find a lot of lists in um you know, 397 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 1: in in in and say video games for all ages. Well, 398 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: a lot of video games are highly acquisitive in nature, 399 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: you know, you accumulate stuff in them. Oh yeah, Like 400 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: the main example, UM I I have right now is 401 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: Fallout seventy six because that's that's a game I'm currently playing. 402 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: And uh I stopped though to think the other day 403 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 1: is as we were talking about doing this episode, that 404 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 1: there's man man. There sure are a lot of lists 405 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 1: in this game because you open your inventory and what 406 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: is it a series of lists like there's a great 407 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: there's a big list, and then you can break down 408 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 1: your list into sub lists of the various weapons are humors, 409 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: bits of scrap, junk notes, uh, hollow tapes, etcetera. So 410 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: it's just one big list. And then when you when 411 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:08,959 Speaker 1: when it comes to the things you're trying to do 412 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: in the game. There are a whole there's a whole 413 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: other like wide array of to do lists. You get 414 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: your like your main quest items, your side quests, your 415 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: daily quest. Uh, it's just a game full of lists. 416 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,959 Speaker 1: The story is a list of mission objectives and what well, 417 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I haven't played seventy six. I assume it's 418 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: like the other followut games. Oh yeah, basically the same concept. Yeah, 419 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 1: and it's it's just a list of things you have 420 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: to have to get done, which is kind of weird 421 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: that we we sometimes retreat from our real life of 422 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 1: to do lists and then we go into a fantasy 423 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: world where we have, you know, another list that we 424 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: have to do, and it's not necessarily this just simple 425 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: equation of well, your your your real life list is 426 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: harder to do and you have it's it's you know, 427 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: the video game is a world in which everything is simplified. No, 428 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: sometimes the to do list is impossible in the video 429 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: game world as well, Yeah, for for varying reasons. But 430 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: but yet we we go to it and we expect 431 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: it to be there now here. Here's another question though, 432 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,439 Speaker 1: aside from like internet content type listicles, I mean, like 433 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: lists within broader works of fiction or or something. What 434 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: What is it that makes a list inherently entertaining? Some 435 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,679 Speaker 1: lists are boring and other lists are really engrossing. I 436 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: remember looking at lists of things in my like Star 437 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: Wars Illustrated Encyclopedia when I was a little kid, and 438 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: I was like, this is a good list. Oh yeah. 439 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 1: When it when it comes to the lore and the 440 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: glossary of any kind of created world, and I'm instantly 441 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: on board for any of that, Like things like, uh, 442 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: you know, the appendix to The Lord of the Rings 443 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: or Dune. The Dune Glossary is almost as good as 444 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: the novel itself. Absolutely, The Dune Encyclopedia, even though it's 445 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: not technically Cannon was one of my favorites when I 446 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 1: was younger. Um, yeah, pretty much any book that I 447 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: really get into, the Second Apocalypse saga or the Game 448 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 1: of Thrones books, you know, like give me, give me 449 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: an alphabetized list of all the names, places, and things 450 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 1: in a given universe, and I'll just I'll read through it. 451 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: I'm currently reading the Harry Potter Monster Book to my son. 452 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: Or it's an alphabetical listing of various magical beasts from 453 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: the setting. He does he get down with lists two 454 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: um I will. I don't know if he's as down 455 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 1: with lists as I am, but he's really into Harry Potter, 456 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: so that works. But but yeah, outside of that though, 457 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: like like, for instance, Lord of the Rings, Okay, like 458 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: it's kind of built around a whole list, isn't it. 459 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: I mean you kick off the whole novel with this 460 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,199 Speaker 1: list of rings and who has them, and it's vital 461 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 1: to the the basic setup of the entire saga, even 462 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: better than it's a rhymed list though. Yeah, yeah, the 463 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: whole three rings for Elphin King's under the sky, seven 464 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: for dwarf lords in their Halls of Stone. It's usually 465 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: read with some degree of drama, but I often wondered, like, 466 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: what if it what if it was just this was 467 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: just written on a like a cocktail napkin, and Sauron 468 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 1: just had it on hand. He's like, all right, what 469 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 1: am I making today? Okay? I gotta make three rings 470 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 1: for Alvin kings under the sky, seven for dwarflords in 471 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: their Hall of nine geez, nine for mortal men doom 472 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 1: to die. That's a lot. I don't know why I 473 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 1: said nine, okay, with the one for me on my 474 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: dark throne right here in more door, etcetera. But then, 475 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 1: of course, because he's the lord of mort Or, the 476 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: to do list just ends up gloating right and in 477 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 1: the darkness behind them. Yeah, I've never thought about it 478 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 1: that way. I like that it's it's Saron's to do 479 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: list from before the rings were made. So I think 480 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: that should steer us into talking about the power and 481 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,239 Speaker 1: nature of to do list. But first we should take 482 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: a break and we come back. We'll discuss some of 483 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 1: the psychology of to do lists. Than all right, we're back, Robert. 484 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: Do you find to do lists useful? Yeah, to a 485 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: certain extent. I mean, so sometimes it's a matter of 486 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: just having a reminder, right, Like on my hand, I 487 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: have the remnants of it to do list for today 488 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,439 Speaker 1: that include picking up two items from from various stores, 489 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 1: Otherwise I might forget them if I didn't have them 490 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: written on my hand. And likewise, if I have more 491 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: than two items to pick up at a given store, 492 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: I need a list of those otherwise I'll forget them. 493 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean a LISTA lists are necessary for 494 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: tackling various larger projects. And especially if you're approaching something 495 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 1: from a project management standpoint, uh, something like say launching 496 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: a podcast. That's the kind of checklist we see a 497 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 1: lot around here when there's a new podcast that rolls out. 498 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: When we roll that invention for existing for for instance, 499 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 1: there was a standardized list of things that needed to 500 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: be done, that needed to be figured out, that needed 501 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 1: to be started or assigned to somebody else, and you 502 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: you would not have a finished product until you've finish 503 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 1: that list. So, I mean, I have to like to 504 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: do list because they are one way that things get done. Well, 505 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: you're clear right, I think that there is clearly a 506 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 1: difference between good lists and bad lists. When you're trying 507 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 1: to come up with a to do list and it's 508 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,479 Speaker 1: sort of like you know it once you're in it. 509 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: To like, you like, this isn't a good list, it's 510 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: not working for me. But I was trying to think, 511 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 1: what are the actual characteristics that make it to do 512 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 1: list helpful rather than something that just hangs over you 513 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: like a wraith that's making you feel anxious and depressed. Well, 514 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: they need to be things that you can easily check off. 515 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like a no brainer, but they 516 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: need to be things that are achievable in the short term. 517 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 1: So like, you can't have a checklist that says like 518 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: sarrance checklist wasn't enslave Middle Earth and check it off. No, 519 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,360 Speaker 1: he started small, building various magical rings to work up 520 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: to this. In fact, maybe he should have started even smaller. 521 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: Uh he should maybe should have been thinking about the 522 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: individual materials he needed for the ring, and like making 523 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: the mold and all that. Uh So we'll get into 524 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: this in a minute. I was wondering, like, obviously there's 525 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 1: a million self help books and productivity seminars and all 526 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: that about about like how to have better to do 527 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 1: lists and and be more productive. But I was wondering, 528 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: is there anything that draws on actual psychology research. Um. 529 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 1: One thing I came across was a chapter about to 530 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: do lists in a book about willpower by one of 531 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 1: the authors was the psychologist Roy Baumeister. Uh So it 532 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: was by Baumeister and Tyranny, and I thought some of 533 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 1: their points were were kind of interesting, some of them 534 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: were kind of obvious, others I was interested in the 535 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: reasoning behind them. So one of the things that they 536 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: point out in this book is that studies show that 537 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: often when we get asked to like list out our 538 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: goals and priorities, a lot of our goals are in 539 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: conflict with one another. And this this is something that 540 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: I don't know should be kind of obvious to us, 541 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: but it's clear that we just don't really think about 542 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: it this way until we like list things out and 543 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: realize things are in conflict. A common example is like 544 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: when you have two different goals that are both competing 545 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: for time you don't have. So like, you're already busy 546 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: and you're asked to make a list of your goals. 547 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: And your goals include things like, you know, spend more 548 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: time on ex personal project and also spend more time 549 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: with family, and so like, those goals are obviously in 550 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: competition with each other for an already scarce resource. Or 551 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: things can be like that with money. You know, they're 552 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: competing for a limited pool of finite resources that you have. 553 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: You know, I can't help me. Be reminded of of 554 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: a ClickHole headline I saw recently, uh titled the only 555 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: thirty one thing standing between you and your dreams. I'm 556 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: scrolling through it now, Uh, it's gout entries like your 557 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: dog crippling doubt your past. See that's that's a wonderful, 558 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: terrible list because you're including some things that are reasonably 559 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: specific but just also huge and vague and totally not actionable. Yeah. 560 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: So so in this book a great example of of 561 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: like when you know, how our goals can come into 562 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: conflict with each other. So the authors talk about, you know, 563 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 1: Benjamin Franklin was obsessed with maximizing his life. He was 564 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: a maximize er, sort of a life hacker type dude, 565 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: and he tried to do this by making to do 566 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: lists about everything, like huge to do list for daily 567 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: virtues to fulfill, so like one every day you'd have 568 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: to fulfill, like like a frugality and industry. But he found, 569 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: of course these things came into conflict because he's trying 570 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: to be frugal, so he ends up having to spend 571 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: a lot of time like doing things for himself instead 572 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: of paying somebody else to do them. But then that 573 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: prevents him from doing work, so he finds he's less industrious. 574 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: So you know, these things are large in general, and 575 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: the goals are actually fighting each other. And so the 576 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: authors point out that like psychology and neuroscience, research does 577 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: not always show that thinking about lists of goals is helpful. 578 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: It's only helpful in some cases given certain kinds of 579 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: lists and goals. Like the psychologist Robert Emmons and Laura 580 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: King demonstrated in a series of study, is that that 581 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: quote the result of conflicting goals is unhappiness instead of action. Again, 582 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: that might seem kind of obvious, but how many obvious 583 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: things do we get stuck in a rud over all 584 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: the time? Uh So, First of all, they found when 585 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: people when people make a list of goals and and 586 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: think about them, if the goals are in conflict, First 587 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,719 Speaker 1: of all, people end up worrying a lot. They end 588 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: up The psychological term for this is rumination. And that's 589 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: the word that just means like repetitive negative thought patterns, 590 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: worrying cycles. The second thing is they actually get less 591 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: done when they think about these lists of goals. People ruminate, 592 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: not only ruminate, but they ruminate instead of acting to 593 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: get things done. And productivity on reaching goals decreases. And 594 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: then finally, physical and mental health suffers. People report more 595 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: negative emotions, more depression and anxiety, and more physical sickness. 596 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: So thinking about lists of your goals listing out the 597 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: things you want itself is not enough to make you 598 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: become happier, more active, and all that. It really matters 599 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: what those goals are and how they're formulated, and when 600 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: they're in the wrong format, it could leave you worse 601 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: off than before. Who reminds me of a bit of 602 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: wisdom that I've seen numerous times about New Year's resolutions, 603 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: You know, about how you set too lofty and new 604 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: Year's resolution and you're just you're you're kicking your own 605 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: self in the pants, like there's that's not going to 606 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: do you any good. You've just you've just gone ahead 607 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: and made this formalized version of your own impending failure. 608 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: Well when really you should you should scale it back 609 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: more and make something that's again more actionable and more 610 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: achievable and fits in with the the other commitments in 611 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: your life. You know, I wonder if sometimes we set 612 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: really ambitious goals for New Year's resolutions because subconsciously we 613 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: want to make sure that we will have an excuse 614 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: to quit trying sooner. I tell you one I always 615 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: hate is I forget what it's called, but it's like 616 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: a challenge to write an entire novel manuscript during the 617 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: month of no November nano remo. Yeah, which is the 618 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 1: with the I can't scarcely think of a worse month 619 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: to try and commit to a daily writing project. The 620 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: November that you're getting right into the holidays, there's Thanksgiving, 621 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: You're trying to to get a lot of work done, 622 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: like they should do it. More like I'm thinking it's 623 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: like in April. Maybe it's a challenge to go swimming 624 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: outdoors every day of January or something. I mean, everyone 625 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: smile is just gonna vary. But that is always my 626 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: my realization is like I say, oh, that that thing 627 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: going on, and I'm like, oh, it's no, it's November. 628 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: This is this is a complete waste of my time. 629 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: I'm just remembering what our November last year was, like, Yeah, 630 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 1: somehow I didn't have time to fit in writing a 631 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: novel while we were also launching an extra podcast. Right, 632 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: uh so, But anyway, so if sometimes goals are in conflict, right, 633 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: sometimes this just happens, and thinking about those goals can 634 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: paralyze you make you unhappy. How do you resolve this? 635 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: I mean, you would think one way would be to 636 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: reformulate your list of goals in order to remove conflicts. 637 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 1: So one way to do this is think about the 638 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,240 Speaker 1: time horizon of your top goals. I think it's probably 639 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 1: easier for things on your list to remain in conflict 640 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: when they're more general and when they're more long term time. 641 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 1: Thinking about time helps you think about like, Okay, what 642 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: do I really care about this month? What do I 643 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 1: really care about this week? For instance? Come up with 644 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,359 Speaker 1: an idea for a novel in November? You go and 645 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: and that time horizon thing really does matter in multiple ways, 646 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 1: like Some studies show that short term goals are more 647 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 1: effective at at causing action and improvement than long term goals, 648 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,919 Speaker 1: can sometimes be better than no goals at all. One 649 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: example side it is this research conducted by the psychologist 650 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: Albert Bandura and Dave Schunk on kids from seven to 651 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 1: ten who are taking this self directed math course. So 652 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:54,879 Speaker 1: the kids are trying to learn how to do certain 653 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 1: kinds of math problems, and they're separated into four groups. 654 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,439 Speaker 1: One group gets this set short term goals. Their goal 655 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: is to do six pages of math problems in every 656 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,879 Speaker 1: one of seven sessions. And then a second group has 657 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: a second has a different goal. It's to complete forty 658 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,240 Speaker 1: two pages of math problems at the end of seven sessions. 659 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: So these two goals, if both completed, should give you 660 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: the same level of progress. And then there was a 661 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: third group that didn't have any particular goals, in a 662 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: fourth group that didn't do math exercises, and the results 663 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 1: were the kids in the short term group did a 664 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 1: lot better. They completed more problems, they were better at 665 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 1: solving problems at the end of the course. Kids in 666 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: the long term group who were just like, Okay, get 667 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: it all done at the end of the course did 668 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: no better than kids who had no goals at all. 669 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 1: And if you think back to your own childhood or 670 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,800 Speaker 1: maybe your own adulthood, you can you can probably see 671 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 1: that that really rings true. At least it does to me, 672 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: like if I didn't have work broken into smaller chunks, 673 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,879 Speaker 1: I would never get it done now. On the other hand, 674 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 1: at the same time, there's research that's found that particularly 675 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: an older students around high school age, thinking about long 676 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 1: long term goals is associated with better outcomes like academic 677 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,839 Speaker 1: performance overall. And a common explanation here that that might 678 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: be going on is that once you're older, it's easier 679 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,959 Speaker 1: for you to see a connection between your long term 680 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: goals and your short term work, like short term tasks 681 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,359 Speaker 1: are sort of they're given a motivation boost when you 682 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: think about what your long term goals are. So you 683 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: could maybe think about these two results sort of in conflict, 684 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 1: but I don't think they're necessarily in conflict, because the 685 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,280 Speaker 1: possible takeaway is it's good to keep long term goals 686 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,439 Speaker 1: in mind to help motivate you as long as they're 687 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,799 Speaker 1: not conflicting. But you also, in order to get stuff done, 688 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 1: you need to chunk things down. You've got to put 689 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:41,720 Speaker 1: your you've got to formulate your to do list items 690 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: in small, discrete chunks of work with clear goals. And 691 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 1: that's what we're talking about with sour On earlier. You know, 692 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,959 Speaker 1: if it's just conquer all of the lands, that that's 693 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:52,800 Speaker 1: not going to work as well. You've got to separate, 694 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,840 Speaker 1: break it into smaller tasks. Right. But likewise, having having 695 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:01,799 Speaker 1: that overall goal of subjugating Middle Earth probably helped him 696 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: put even more effort into making that one ring really dope, 697 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,880 Speaker 1: you know, I think so. Yeah, So it's like visualize 698 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 1: the end, but focus on what you have to do 699 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,279 Speaker 1: right now. The very next thing. Another important insight that 700 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: they side is just it's important to be flexible. Like 701 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 1: if you try to over rigidly plan out to do 702 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: lists of things, uh that can that can actually get 703 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: you bogged down. In one example they side is research 704 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,959 Speaker 1: that found that people who made monthly plans for goal 705 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: attainment did better than people who made rigid daily plans 706 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,439 Speaker 1: for goal attainment, just because the day to day things 707 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 1: come up, you get you get sidetracked. You need to 708 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,800 Speaker 1: have a plan that has has some some wiggle in 709 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 1: it if something comes up today and you can't do 710 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 1: your thing today. Yeah, yeah, I guess I can definitely 711 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: see that with bigger projects. I'm if I'm trying to 712 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 1: think on a day to day basis, something's going to 713 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,760 Speaker 1: wreck that plan. But if I'm thinking more weekly and monthly, 714 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: like by the end of this month, I will have 715 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 1: reached this point more or less, then that's it. That's 716 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,239 Speaker 1: it that tends to work. Yeah, totally, though, I would say, 717 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: like each day within a monthly goal setting thing, it's 718 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 1: good to like plan out more minute parts of the 719 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 1: day as you get You shouldn't wait till right then 720 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,319 Speaker 1: you get into like do your forty two pages by 721 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: the end kind of thing. You just never do it. Okay. 722 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,280 Speaker 1: The next big thing that these authors bring up about 723 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 1: to do lists is going back to something we've talked 724 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 1: about on the podcast before, which is the Zigarnic effect. Oh, yes, 725 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 1: we've discussed this, We've discussed in our Tetris episode. And uh, 726 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 1: there was another one too. I'm trying to remember the 727 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 1: the incomplete unfinished one. Yes, yes, about various bits of artwork, 728 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: etcetera literature in which there is some incomplete aspect to 729 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 1: the thing. Right, Well, it certainly applies to that, because 730 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: the Zigarnic effect is the brains tendency to be brought 731 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 1: back to incomplete tasks and to remember them better than 732 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: complete tasks asks. So it was. It was a concept 733 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 1: originally expressed and studied in the nineteen twenties, I think 734 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 1: in nineteen seven by a Russian psychologist by the name 735 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 1: of bloom O Wolfovna Zigarnik who lived nineteen hundred to 736 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: ninety eight, and supposedly this came about after she and 737 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,839 Speaker 1: a colleague were discussing watching waiters in a restaurant and 738 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,319 Speaker 1: how the waiters could remember all of the details of 739 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,400 Speaker 1: the order one of their tables until the check was cleared, 740 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: and then once the check at that table was cleared. 741 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,360 Speaker 1: It was like their brains were just wiped. They forgot everything. 742 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 1: The task is complete, and therefore the the information, Uh, 743 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,479 Speaker 1: the various road signs to completion are no longer necessary. Yeah, 744 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: exactly so uh to to sum it up in a 745 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:48,280 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight social psychology textbook by Roy Bauminster 746 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 1: and Brad Bushman, uh the author's right quote, the Zigarnic 747 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:57,320 Speaker 1: effect is a tendency to experience automatic intrusive thoughts about 748 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: a goal that one has pursued but the suit of 749 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,360 Speaker 1: which has been interrupted. That is, if you start working 750 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,760 Speaker 1: toward a goal and fail to get there, thoughts about 751 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,359 Speaker 1: the goal will keep popping into your mind while you're 752 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 1: doing other things, as if to remind you to get 753 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:17,840 Speaker 1: back on track to finish reaching that goal. So, given this, like, 754 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 1: the Zigernic effect is often cited as an explanation of 755 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:25,360 Speaker 1: what we talked about earlier, rumination, you know, unproductive patterns 756 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 1: of recurring negative thoughts. Uh. The Zigernic effect can kind 757 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,359 Speaker 1: of like just pull you out of whatever you're doing 758 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,319 Speaker 1: right now and make you start thinking about that thing 759 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,920 Speaker 1: you're worrying about the goal. You haven't attained the task 760 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,920 Speaker 1: you haven't finished, but it's also used to describe more 761 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: mundane stuff like earworms and music, like, if you hear 762 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 1: part of a song play, your brain may try to 763 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,760 Speaker 1: keep completing the task of the song until you actually 764 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 1: are able to listen to the whole thing. And as 765 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,239 Speaker 1: personal anecdotal evidence of this, you ever notice how, at 766 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 1: least if you're like me, you're more likely to get 767 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: a song stuck in your head if you hear it 768 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 1: in an unfocused way, like playing in a grocery store 769 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 1: or on the radio in a car, as opposed to 770 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 1: a song that you like, sit down and listen to. Yeah, yeah, 771 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,320 Speaker 1: for sure. It certainly it makes for more more of 772 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:19,839 Speaker 1: a chance encounter. Yeah, um, not a deliberate encounter, but yeah, 773 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,360 Speaker 1: those will be the times where I leave the grocery 774 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 1: store and then there's this song stuck in my head. 775 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,920 Speaker 1: I feel like, literally, at least seventy percent of the 776 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 1: time that somebody says to me, why are you singing 777 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,799 Speaker 1: that song? I don't even realize I was singing it. 778 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 1: And then what I realized is it was playing in 779 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 1: the store. But that seems perfect because like in the store, 780 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,040 Speaker 1: you walk in and out, you're not really paying attention 781 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 1: to the music. You hear a bit of it and 782 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 1: it just gets lodged in there, and then your brain 783 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 1: is like trying to play it back and and and 784 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: complete it um. But we should note that it appears 785 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,960 Speaker 1: that the Sigartic effect has a sort of mixed replication history, 786 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,840 Speaker 1: like some studies replicate the effect, others fail to. So 787 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,400 Speaker 1: if we assume that it is real and based on experience, 788 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 1: I think it does at least somewhat seem to be real. 789 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,759 Speaker 1: There may be conditional qualities to it that we don't 790 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 1: fully understand yet, and one complication to the effect, for instance, 791 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,759 Speaker 1: seems to be related to creating to do lists. So 792 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 1: I just want to mention one study by Roy Baumeister 793 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 1: and E. J. Massa Campo called consider It Done. Plan 794 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,839 Speaker 1: making can eliminate the cognitive effects of unfulfilled goals, and 795 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,239 Speaker 1: this was in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 796 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: in two thousand eleven. So this paper, they they recount 797 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,840 Speaker 1: a number of studies that the authors did to test 798 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 1: the persistence and intrusiveness of thoughts about an upcoming finished 799 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 1: task like an exam in school, and a few examples 800 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 1: of how to test things would be like testing how 801 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:52,240 Speaker 1: often people became distracted while trying to read something after 802 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 1: being made to think about that upcoming task, or testing 803 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 1: how primed this. The subjects were to complete a partial 804 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 1: word puzzle with a task related solution word, so like, 805 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,360 Speaker 1: if you're given like e x blank, do you complete 806 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 1: that as exam or as something else? So they found 807 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 1: evidence of the Zigaric effect that people who had been 808 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,839 Speaker 1: made to think about an upcoming task and it wasn't 809 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 1: something they had finished yet, it did become an intrusive, 810 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 1: repetitive thought for them. But they found that you didn't 811 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 1: actually have to go complete the task in order to 812 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,880 Speaker 1: find it less intrusively occupying your thoughts, less likely to 813 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:33,600 Speaker 1: cause rumination and distraction. You just had to come up 814 00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,400 Speaker 1: with a concrete plan basically a to do list of 815 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,200 Speaker 1: concrete steps about how you would solve the problem. Uh So, 816 00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 1: to quote from their abstract quote. Allowing participants to formulate 817 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: specific plans for their unfulfilled goals eliminated the various activation 818 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,839 Speaker 1: and interference effects. Reduction of the effects was mediated by 819 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: the earnestness of participants plans. Those who ultimately executed their 820 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 1: plans were those who also exhibited no more intrusions. So 821 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,800 Speaker 1: it's not just that the people who made the concrete 822 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 1: steps uh did better with eliminating the zigonic effect intrusions, 823 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: also the ones who actually ended up being successful in 824 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,400 Speaker 1: their plans that was correlated with it. So it's like 825 00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,160 Speaker 1: it's almost like your brain can tell whether you're taking 826 00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,719 Speaker 1: your own plan seriously. And to quote more from their 827 00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,640 Speaker 1: abstract quote, committing to a specific plan for a goal 828 00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:31,120 Speaker 1: may therefore not only facilitate attainment of the goal, but 829 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:35,200 Speaker 1: may also free cognitive resources for other pursuits. Once the 830 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:38,239 Speaker 1: plan is made, the drive to attain a goal is suspended, 831 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:42,520 Speaker 1: allowing goal related cognitive activity to cease, and is resumed 832 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,640 Speaker 1: at the specified later time. Well, this makes a lot 833 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:50,440 Speaker 1: of sense of certainly when when compared to experience, because 834 00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:52,960 Speaker 1: I can think of definite times in my life where 835 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 1: there's been like some big thing I've got to start, 836 00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,520 Speaker 1: and just by starting it, just by safe, for instance, 837 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,239 Speaker 1: looking at the list of things to do and then 838 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,040 Speaker 1: calling it a day, you know, which ultimately doesn't really 839 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,720 Speaker 1: it doesn't really get that much done on the task, 840 00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,239 Speaker 1: but you began the process, and just by doing that, 841 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:14,839 Speaker 1: you know, you can feel better. You can feel like 842 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,520 Speaker 1: you have more control of the situation. Oh well, thinking 843 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,920 Speaker 1: about or or making a list of things to do. 844 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,200 Speaker 1: I would say that is really getting something done. That's 845 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,920 Speaker 1: maybe the most important part of what you've got. But 846 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,239 Speaker 1: but in another way, you didn't actually do anything. It's 847 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,400 Speaker 1: kind of like cleaning cleaning the room. An essential step 848 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,040 Speaker 1: is formulating a game plan and deciding what you're gonna 849 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,040 Speaker 1: tackle first so that you can act. But you haven't 850 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,279 Speaker 1: actually cleaned anything yet. Yes, but but it's it's a 851 00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,719 Speaker 1: crucial part. And in fact it's good enough to not 852 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,520 Speaker 1: only help make you more likely to get the project 853 00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,720 Speaker 1: done in the end, but also to make you worry 854 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,320 Speaker 1: less about it until you get there. It's a twofold benefit, 855 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,279 Speaker 1: more actual success at goals and less rumination in the meantime. 856 00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,480 Speaker 1: And I think this also makes sense from a sort 857 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,280 Speaker 1: of imagining, like a cognitive neuroscience point of view, because 858 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:06,600 Speaker 1: if you think about it, so like the Zigaric effect 859 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:11,799 Speaker 1: is sometimes interpreted as like, uh, the unconscious mind sort 860 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,280 Speaker 1: of pinging the conscious mind with like an outstanding problem. 861 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,520 Speaker 1: It's like, hey, remember this, you need to get on that. 862 00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:21,200 Speaker 1: Hey remember this, And but what it really is asking 863 00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:23,960 Speaker 1: for is the help of the conscious mind, and the 864 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,319 Speaker 1: conscious mind, we tend to think, is linked to the 865 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,800 Speaker 1: part of the mind that has executive control. Executive control 866 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,440 Speaker 1: is good for what planning, Like, the conscious mind is 867 00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 1: good at coming up with a list of steps of 868 00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:39,960 Speaker 1: things you need to do to solve a problem, something 869 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,840 Speaker 1: that the unconscious mind is not very good at. And 870 00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,600 Speaker 1: this is where executive time comes in, right, the amount 871 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,560 Speaker 1: of time we spend each day in executive time. No, 872 00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:52,320 Speaker 1: that's the exact opposite. That's like period time. So you 873 00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,840 Speaker 1: rope in the conscious mind for for executive action. Yeah, 874 00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:58,560 Speaker 1: but I think it appears that across this stuff like 875 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:04,239 Speaker 1: that that very specific concrete plans are more useful and 876 00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:08,560 Speaker 1: more psychologically satisfying. Uh So. One of the things that 877 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:12,920 Speaker 1: you know, productivity experts often observe is that say, like, 878 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 1: if you're trying to, like, you know, fix some stuff 879 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,200 Speaker 1: around your house, don't have a step in the plan 880 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:21,000 Speaker 1: that's like fix the shower. The step in your plan 881 00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:25,399 Speaker 1: should be the very specific first concrete step you need 882 00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,600 Speaker 1: to do to fix the shower, like go to Lows 883 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,920 Speaker 1: and buy this part that I need and have the 884 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,160 Speaker 1: name of the part, or you know, and if you 885 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,480 Speaker 1: if you're not at that stage. Yet the thing should 886 00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,400 Speaker 1: be find out what part I need on the shower 887 00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,280 Speaker 1: by going to by looking it up on the internet. 888 00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:45,399 Speaker 1: I do think that's a useful insight. Like if you're 889 00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:47,319 Speaker 1: finding if you've got to to do list, but you're 890 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,520 Speaker 1: stuck and you're not getting through it, probably one way 891 00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,440 Speaker 1: that you can get unstuck is take the items in 892 00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:55,600 Speaker 1: the list and try to break them up into smaller 893 00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:58,560 Speaker 1: parts figure out how they can be subdivided. All right, 894 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:00,160 Speaker 1: on that note, we're going to take a quick right, 895 00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,399 Speaker 1: and when we come back more on lists and why 896 00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:07,239 Speaker 1: we love them. Thank you, thank you. All right, we're back. 897 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,480 Speaker 1: So clearly, as we mentioned earlier on lists are huge 898 00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,719 Speaker 1: in web content, right, we know the power of list uh, 899 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,040 Speaker 1: this is something that web traffic analysis clearly shows. Enumerated 900 00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:22,560 Speaker 1: list type articles have an extremely powerful appeal. They're clicky. 901 00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:24,640 Speaker 1: Why Well, like I said earlier, I think a lot 902 00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,640 Speaker 1: of it is ease of absorption and or action. So 903 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,799 Speaker 1: it's like ten images or names, uh, you know, and 904 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:32,680 Speaker 1: you probably don't even have to read the rest of 905 00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:34,720 Speaker 1: the text. You can just scan it. But then also 906 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,840 Speaker 1: like ten steps being a big thing, like ten steps 907 00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,959 Speaker 1: that sounds doable. I can do ten steps. What you know, what, 908 00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,680 Speaker 1: what's the offering? Is it ten steps to a better life, 909 00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,799 Speaker 1: ten steps to a cleaner house? Uh, ten steps to 910 00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,279 Speaker 1: a better marriage? I mean these are all uh you 911 00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,000 Speaker 1: put it the phrase it like that. I'm like, well, 912 00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,880 Speaker 1: let's let's try it. Well, I mean yeah, ten steps 913 00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,440 Speaker 1: I think are very popular. They're popular maybe for a 914 00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:01,320 Speaker 1: different reason than a lot of other kinds of enumerated articles. 915 00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:03,840 Speaker 1: Are useful because the steps thing is like a to 916 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,400 Speaker 1: do list. It says, this is not an infinitely complex, 917 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,319 Speaker 1: impossible problem. This is a problem with ten parts, and 918 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,839 Speaker 1: you can do one part at a time. It makes 919 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,359 Speaker 1: it seem like, oh, yeah, I could actually begin this 920 00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,000 Speaker 1: right and like that alone can be empowering, even if 921 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:23,080 Speaker 1: you have no intention of following entities just no, even 922 00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:25,759 Speaker 1: just not even reading the list, just knowing that that 923 00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,080 Speaker 1: process could be broken down into ten steps can feel 924 00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:33,360 Speaker 1: kind of liberating. Yeah. So nine rings for men doomed 925 00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,200 Speaker 1: to die. Okay, so that's one step, or maybe that's 926 00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,120 Speaker 1: the third step. I don't remember what order they come in, 927 00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:42,640 Speaker 1: but Elvin King's our first joke. First, the elves are 928 00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:44,440 Speaker 1: picky if you don't take care of them first, they 929 00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:46,839 Speaker 1: asked to see your manager. But but to come back 930 00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,319 Speaker 1: to the scannable nature of list, I think that's big too, 931 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,440 Speaker 1: because it's really important. Yeah, because there there have been 932 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:53,520 Speaker 1: recent studies. In fact, there was the most recent one 933 00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:55,439 Speaker 1: just came out in the last few weeks. I think 934 00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:59,080 Speaker 1: looking at how we easily overestimate our understanding of a 935 00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,560 Speaker 1: topic based on say a headline of an article or 936 00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:05,640 Speaker 1: an article preview and Facebook, Um well yeah, I mean 937 00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:09,560 Speaker 1: there's like you remember the the illusion of explanatory depth episodes, 938 00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,879 Speaker 1: where that's somewhat different, But it's that you know, there 939 00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:16,160 Speaker 1: can be a thing that we're familiar with because we 940 00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:18,920 Speaker 1: are exposed to the concept of it a lot, and 941 00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:21,719 Speaker 1: it gives us the false impression that we understand how 942 00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:25,279 Speaker 1: it works. Like you know, you're you're around bicycles all 943 00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:27,239 Speaker 1: the time, so surely you can draw one with all 944 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:31,880 Speaker 1: the parts accurately placed, right or can you? It seems 945 00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:33,680 Speaker 1: so simple, But it turns out a lot of people 946 00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,000 Speaker 1: can and it's just like, yeah, you see them enough 947 00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,200 Speaker 1: that you just think, well, I must understand this. And 948 00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:41,720 Speaker 1: I think the same is true for more abstract conceptual topics, 949 00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:44,920 Speaker 1: like you know, issues in politics. You think you understand 950 00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,560 Speaker 1: how it works because you've seen the name referenced in 951 00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,800 Speaker 1: headlines right or you've or maybe you've seen something broken 952 00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,680 Speaker 1: down on a list of talking points, etcetera. Uh Now, 953 00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:55,920 Speaker 1: speaking of social media, it's also worth pointing out that 954 00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,640 Speaker 1: something like your Facebook or your Twitter feed is it's 955 00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,200 Speaker 1: not enumerated, but it is essentially a list. Yes, it 956 00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,440 Speaker 1: is also not a fineite list because they're designed to 957 00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:08,880 Speaker 1: be infinite, infinitely scrollable. But but these are lists, and 958 00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:12,239 Speaker 1: many times a day we're probably checking in to see 959 00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,360 Speaker 1: what the list is offering us this time. Well, I 960 00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:17,880 Speaker 1: think that also goes to the fact that lists are appealing. 961 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,839 Speaker 1: Listical type articles are appealing on the Internet because they're 962 00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:23,799 Speaker 1: easily scannable for content, in the same way that your 963 00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,239 Speaker 1: news feed is easily scannable for content. You know, like 964 00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:29,000 Speaker 1: on Facebook, if you're just sitting there scrolling and letting 965 00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:33,680 Speaker 1: Facebook ravage your brain, you are not You're not reading 966 00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:37,440 Speaker 1: everything you're scrolling past. You know, You're just like scrolling 967 00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:39,839 Speaker 1: until your eye hits something and you look at that 968 00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:41,719 Speaker 1: for a second and you're like, oh, there's that, and 969 00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:44,439 Speaker 1: then you keep going. So I think maybe it's not 970 00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,920 Speaker 1: always the numbered and nature of a listical that's important. 971 00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:50,120 Speaker 1: Like in many cases, I think the numbers don't matter. 972 00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,920 Speaker 1: Maybe what's important is that we know to expect a 973 00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:58,040 Speaker 1: listical to have headers. Actually, header is very important because 974 00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:01,040 Speaker 1: they help you quickly identify the meat of the content 975 00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:03,600 Speaker 1: to know what the things on the list are. You 976 00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,759 Speaker 1: don't really have to read the paragraphs if there are any. 977 00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:08,839 Speaker 1: You can just like look at the headers and say, 978 00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:11,319 Speaker 1: do I want to go deeper on this one? Knowing 979 00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:13,640 Speaker 1: just scroll past right and you know exactly. You know 980 00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:15,400 Speaker 1: pretty much how long the article is going to be. 981 00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:17,840 Speaker 1: It's like ten items, that's it. Maybe there'll be some 982 00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,239 Speaker 1: honorable mentions at the bottom, but for the most part, 983 00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:22,799 Speaker 1: I have a general length in mind. Yeah, And so 984 00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:26,680 Speaker 1: your relationship with the listical type thing is usually pretty mercenary, right, 985 00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,759 Speaker 1: It's less dedicated than a relationship you might have with 986 00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:33,240 Speaker 1: other types of written texts. I think it's also appealing 987 00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,960 Speaker 1: because a list promises discrete chunks of information that are 988 00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:41,920 Speaker 1: desired for some understood reason, like they're either practically useful 989 00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:46,120 Speaker 1: useful like steps and how to or um practically useful because, 990 00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:49,880 Speaker 1: like say ranked products, you know that these are good 991 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,400 Speaker 1: versions of this product that you might want to remember 992 00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:56,600 Speaker 1: and look for when you're shopping, or because they're interesting 993 00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:59,440 Speaker 1: and you want to have bits of interesting information to remember, 994 00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:03,480 Speaker 1: like the the eleven craziest Baffamet statues, or there's something 995 00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:06,040 Speaker 1: else that you feel compelled to know, like those best 996 00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:08,040 Speaker 1: of lists that people sort of used to help form 997 00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,400 Speaker 1: their taste. I was reading an article in The New 998 00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:13,840 Speaker 1: Yorker by Maria Knakova, science writer who I like is 999 00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,000 Speaker 1: she She wrote a good book called The Confidence Game. 1000 00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:18,279 Speaker 1: I enjoyed that one a lot. One of the things 1001 00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:22,520 Speaker 1: you mentioned is the idea of that the lists basically 1002 00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:26,640 Speaker 1: benefit from processing fluency. And we've talked about processing fluency 1003 00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:30,040 Speaker 1: on the show before, but processing fluency is a really 1004 00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:34,400 Speaker 1: underrated influence on our mental lives. Like we spend a 1005 00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:39,160 Speaker 1: lot of energy trying to spend less mental energy on 1006 00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:43,200 Speaker 1: things like a lot of energy trying to optimize our 1007 00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:47,719 Speaker 1: information environments for processing fluency, which means we're trying to 1008 00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:51,400 Speaker 1: make sure the information coming into our brain is not 1009 00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:55,160 Speaker 1: too challenging and it's easy to process. And there are 1010 00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:56,959 Speaker 1: a ton of ways you can look at the world 1011 00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:59,200 Speaker 1: around you and understand that we're trying to shape our 1012 00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:03,600 Speaker 1: environments to favor processing fluency by having these biases for 1013 00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:07,239 Speaker 1: processing fluency fluency, like remember the example of the the 1014 00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:11,200 Speaker 1: illusory truth effect. Oh yes, absolutely, Yeah, we're more likely 1015 00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:14,400 Speaker 1: to what recall something if we've heard it before, and 1016 00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:16,440 Speaker 1: even more if it's not true, even if it's an 1017 00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:19,479 Speaker 1: outright lie. Exactly, I've heard it before, and therefore we 1018 00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:22,600 Speaker 1: we echo it. Yeah, we're so we're primed to understand it. 1019 00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:26,200 Speaker 1: It's easier to process because we've heard it before. And 1020 00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:28,960 Speaker 1: so there's scientific backing for the idea for the notion 1021 00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:31,040 Speaker 1: that if you hear something often enough, you start to 1022 00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:34,680 Speaker 1: believe it's true. And one possible explanation for this is 1023 00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:37,920 Speaker 1: that it's caused by a bias favoring processing fluency. You 1024 00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:41,279 Speaker 1: hear something for the hundredth time, it's just way easier 1025 00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,040 Speaker 1: to process than when you hear something for the first 1026 00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:47,520 Speaker 1: time and it's new and unfamiliar. Another example I randomly 1027 00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:52,280 Speaker 1: came across as a study uh by a Grifhenator at All, 1028 00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:56,160 Speaker 1: which is a great name in social psychological and personality science. 1029 00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:58,720 Speaker 1: In two thousand ten, there was a series of studies 1030 00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:02,920 Speaker 1: that just revealed, um, when people are grading handwritten essays, 1031 00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:06,400 Speaker 1: there's a strong bias in favor of the ones that 1032 00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,160 Speaker 1: are easy to read and against the ones that are 1033 00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:11,319 Speaker 1: that are more difficult to read. That might not be 1034 00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:14,080 Speaker 1: that surprising, but even people who don't think they're biased, 1035 00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:17,440 Speaker 1: in fact are You're biased by the fact that something 1036 00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,160 Speaker 1: that is easier to read and it's easier to take 1037 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,920 Speaker 1: in just feels better to you. And so I think 1038 00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:27,400 Speaker 1: this is clearly work with like list type content because you, uh, 1039 00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:32,040 Speaker 1: number one, lists are pre categorized, you know, like so 1040 00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:34,960 Speaker 1: you don't have to wonder, like what what box am 1041 00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:36,960 Speaker 1: I going to put this in? In my mind? Like 1042 00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:39,160 Speaker 1: you already you know based on the title of the 1043 00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,160 Speaker 1: list what you're going to be getting out of it. 1044 00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:44,040 Speaker 1: You're not going to be categorically surprised. You've you've already 1045 00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:47,360 Speaker 1: got a schemata going in for where to put everything. 1046 00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:51,480 Speaker 1: And then also there's just simple stuff like kna Covid 1047 00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:56,640 Speaker 1: points out that lists naturally naturally lend themselves to spatial categorization, 1048 00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:00,279 Speaker 1: like there's vertical placement on a page, and there's ters 1049 00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:04,560 Speaker 1: to denote placement of information um there in like large 1050 00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:08,080 Speaker 1: blocks of normal text aren't as clearly spatialized, but that 1051 00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:11,480 Speaker 1: we remember things better when it's spatially formatted in a 1052 00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:14,799 Speaker 1: way that's clear. Like think about the memory palace. Uh. 1053 00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,160 Speaker 1: You know, people can remember things better if what they 1054 00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:21,360 Speaker 1: like imagine a physical space. Yeah, using these yes, spatial 1055 00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,279 Speaker 1: um of processing to understand something that may just be 1056 00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:27,680 Speaker 1: a list of numbers even Yeah, like a top ten 1057 00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:31,560 Speaker 1: list is basically taking a concept and putting it in 1058 00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:35,120 Speaker 1: the format of a Mortal Kombat challenge tower, you know, 1059 00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:37,480 Speaker 1: where you have a list of opponents and at the 1060 00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:40,960 Speaker 1: top you've got you know, you've got Shaalcan or whoever, 1061 00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:43,440 Speaker 1: and that's the main boss, that's the number one ranking 1062 00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:45,000 Speaker 1: goes all the way down to the who are the 1063 00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:47,960 Speaker 1: easiest person to beat? Is So if you can take 1064 00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:52,640 Speaker 1: anything be it you know, global politics or environmental concerns, 1065 00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:55,520 Speaker 1: break it down into a Mortal Kombat challenge tower, and 1066 00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:58,560 Speaker 1: then just about anybody can can at least get like 1067 00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:01,440 Speaker 1: the surface level unders standing of what you're trying to relate. 1068 00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:04,040 Speaker 1: That's a good point. I mean another way of putting 1069 00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:07,919 Speaker 1: it is that like, uh, lists tell you the tell 1070 00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:10,680 Speaker 1: they explicitly tell you what's the important part of what 1071 00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:13,480 Speaker 1: you're reading. You know, like this is a thing that's 1072 00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:17,120 Speaker 1: like difficult for younger readers often is like to like 1073 00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:21,240 Speaker 1: read a passage and then identify what's the thesis sentence 1074 00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,600 Speaker 1: or the most important sentence in this paragraph or in 1075 00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:26,920 Speaker 1: this page. And like a lot of times it's it's 1076 00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:29,280 Speaker 1: harder for younger readers to do that. To figure out 1077 00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,000 Speaker 1: what's the point a list, you don't have to wonder. 1078 00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,040 Speaker 1: It tells you here's the point. And that's another big 1079 00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,040 Speaker 1: thing about about lists and ranking is we're often going 1080 00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:40,040 Speaker 1: to skip to the end. Like Pitch for It comes 1081 00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:42,400 Speaker 1: out with like top one albums of the year, I'm 1082 00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:45,920 Speaker 1: going to look at the top ten. Maybe they intentionally 1083 00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:49,880 Speaker 1: stagger the page nation to make that harder to do. Yeah, yeah, 1084 00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:51,120 Speaker 1: you have to. Like, of course, you have to click 1085 00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:53,520 Speaker 1: through a bunch of pages rights part of the game. 1086 00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:56,000 Speaker 1: You like can't click to the last page from the 1087 00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:58,520 Speaker 1: first page. You can only click to the like third 1088 00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:00,480 Speaker 1: to last page from the first page age, and then 1089 00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:03,680 Speaker 1: you have to click down from there. It's nonsense. People 1090 00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:06,720 Speaker 1: people get mad about that. But anyway, bringing back to 1091 00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,400 Speaker 1: umberto echo, like, I think there are some some clear 1092 00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,760 Speaker 1: easy reasons to see why, Like, you know, listical type 1093 00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:17,120 Speaker 1: content on the internet is highly popular, But what about 1094 00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:20,040 Speaker 1: the appeal of the list to somebody like Umberto Echo 1095 00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:23,400 Speaker 1: and or in in something like the Iliad. One of 1096 00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:25,800 Speaker 1: the things that Echo mentions is he just says that 1097 00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:30,120 Speaker 1: lists are sort of a suggestion of immortality, because he says, 1098 00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:32,800 Speaker 1: you know, we have this discouraging limit on our lives. 1099 00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:35,200 Speaker 1: We know we're going to die, and that we like 1100 00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:38,400 Speaker 1: to assume that things go on without end, and so 1101 00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:41,280 Speaker 1: a list of creating these big lists, like the catalog 1102 00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:43,680 Speaker 1: of Ships, it's kind of a way of escaping thoughts 1103 00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:46,480 Speaker 1: about death because we like to make He says, we 1104 00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:49,680 Speaker 1: make lists because we don't want to die. Interesting. Yeah, 1105 00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:51,600 Speaker 1: I mean it comes back, you know, probably one of 1106 00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:53,840 Speaker 1: the most direct things. We can think of it as 1107 00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:58,160 Speaker 1: a bucket list or a reading list of viewing list. Uh, 1108 00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:00,000 Speaker 1: these are all the things we're going to a common 1109 00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:02,760 Speaker 1: plush in our lifetime. Yeah, which, of course I have 1110 00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:04,560 Speaker 1: to sadly admit that I still have a couple of 1111 00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:08,960 Speaker 1: Umberto Eco novels on my two to read list, a 1112 00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:11,400 Speaker 1: couple that I haven't haven't gotten around to just yet. 1113 00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:14,240 Speaker 1: Well I've only read one now. Oh yeah, they're uh. 1114 00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:18,240 Speaker 1: He has some other great ones of Co's Pendulum, Island 1115 00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:21,880 Speaker 1: of the day before Bartolino. Those are the those are 1116 00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:24,240 Speaker 1: the ones I enjoyed the most. I've got to check 1117 00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:27,400 Speaker 1: that out. Name of the Rose was awesome. It's oh yeah, 1118 00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:31,520 Speaker 1: it's like a easily now a top ten book for me, 1119 00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:34,800 Speaker 1: I think, really really awesome. And by the way, speaking 1120 00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:36,800 Speaker 1: of the name of the route, Name of the Rose, 1121 00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:39,040 Speaker 1: of course, it's said in the medieval period with like 1122 00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:40,960 Speaker 1: monks who are you know, a lot of times dealing 1123 00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:44,640 Speaker 1: with these philosophical debates about the nature of things and 1124 00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:48,280 Speaker 1: dealing with these in cycling medieval encyclopedias, which is just 1125 00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:50,600 Speaker 1: like the best things that were, you know, the bestiaries 1126 00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:53,200 Speaker 1: and all that um. And that one of the things 1127 00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:55,400 Speaker 1: Echo talks about in this interview is sort of the 1128 00:59:55,440 --> 01:00:00,920 Speaker 1: difference between understanding something by defining it versus understanding something 1129 01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:04,080 Speaker 1: by way of list uh, and that these are different 1130 01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:06,560 Speaker 1: ways of approaching knowledge and of seeing the world. When 1131 01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:08,800 Speaker 1: you define something, you try to like put into a 1132 01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:12,600 Speaker 1: sentence the essence of what the concept or the thing is, 1133 01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:15,400 Speaker 1: whereas the other way, I guess is the more like 1134 01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:20,120 Speaker 1: inductive way of understanding a concept, which is making lists 1135 01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:24,080 Speaker 1: of examples of it or making lists of its characteristics. 1136 01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:28,600 Speaker 1: You know, This reminds me of the TV Tropes website 1137 01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:32,040 Speaker 1: that I enjoy using from time to time, especially especially 1138 01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:33,680 Speaker 1: if we have an episode coming out and there's like 1139 01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:35,960 Speaker 1: a concept in the show and I would like to 1140 01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:39,960 Speaker 1: acknowledge or remind myself of either know either sci fi 1141 01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:43,200 Speaker 1: that I've I've read before or I'm familiar with, or 1142 01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:45,360 Speaker 1: something I am not familiar with it someow ties into 1143 01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:46,800 Speaker 1: the concept. You can go to TV tropes and you 1144 01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:48,840 Speaker 1: can look at the various tropes and a given property, 1145 01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:53,000 Speaker 1: um so, and on one level, it's it's it's fulfilling, 1146 01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:55,720 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, it feels very very much 1147 01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:58,560 Speaker 1: like a reduction of these things, you know, like let's 1148 01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:02,360 Speaker 1: just Adam is a film or a novel or a 1149 01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:07,400 Speaker 1: comic book down to familiar tropes that have appeared elsewhere. Well, 1150 01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:08,960 Speaker 1: on the other hand, I would say they kind of 1151 01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:13,120 Speaker 1: TV tropes that site kind of um I don't know, 1152 01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:18,320 Speaker 1: validates or immortalizes strange cliches and conventions by showing you 1153 01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:21,080 Speaker 1: just how many examples of it there are. When you 1154 01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:24,640 Speaker 1: thought you you see something in like one movie and 1155 01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:26,920 Speaker 1: you're like, that's kind of odd, But it feels bigger 1156 01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:28,920 Speaker 1: than that to me. It feels like a cliche. And 1157 01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:31,480 Speaker 1: sometimes you look it up on TV tropes and you 1158 01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:33,960 Speaker 1: find out, oh, yeah, this is in thirty things. You know, 1159 01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:35,960 Speaker 1: it's in a bunch of anime, and you have it. 1160 01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:39,000 Speaker 1: But sometimes that thing that has appeared thirty Other times 1161 01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:42,560 Speaker 1: it's it's so well executed, or it's executed in a 1162 01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:46,240 Speaker 1: way that feels unique, or or or when other elements 1163 01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:51,080 Speaker 1: are creative sufficiently creative that it it doesn't feel like 1164 01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:53,440 Speaker 1: one of thirty things, it feels like the thing. Well. 1165 01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:55,240 Speaker 1: I think one of the great talents of a writer, 1166 01:01:55,520 --> 01:02:00,160 Speaker 1: especially comedy writers more than anybody else. But but one 1167 01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:01,680 Speaker 1: of the great talents of a writer who has a 1168 01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:05,760 Speaker 1: good sense of irony is the talent for picking out 1169 01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:10,200 Speaker 1: one example of a thing that communicates that thing well, 1170 01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:13,920 Speaker 1: whereas somebody else would have to write a complex definition 1171 01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:16,840 Speaker 1: or give a list of many examples. You know what 1172 01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:20,440 Speaker 1: I'm talking about, Like the great talent for picking out 1173 01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:24,680 Speaker 1: the one example that perfectly encapsulates the spirit of something 1174 01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:26,520 Speaker 1: like if you were to say, and I'm not even 1175 01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:28,320 Speaker 1: sure exactly what this would mean, but if you were 1176 01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:30,480 Speaker 1: to say so, and so is the Highlander two of 1177 01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:34,120 Speaker 1: people exactly Yes, I'm not sure what I would. I'm 1178 01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:36,600 Speaker 1: saying if I were to pass that judgment on someone, 1179 01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:41,520 Speaker 1: part of it would depend on obvious aspects of that individual. 1180 01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:45,800 Speaker 1: But it that I'm still saying something that seems pretty specific. 1181 01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:48,440 Speaker 1: I don't know if it works for H two, but 1182 01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:51,040 Speaker 1: it's but but yes, you're on the right track, that 1183 01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:53,040 Speaker 1: is what I mean. Now, another way of thinking about 1184 01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:57,400 Speaker 1: lists is just the nature of list making and list using, 1185 01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:02,360 Speaker 1: as it's comparable to just how we use language, especially 1186 01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:06,400 Speaker 1: written language. UM So, if we go back far enough 1187 01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:09,920 Speaker 1: in time, we get back to the roots of cuneiform writing, 1188 01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:13,760 Speaker 1: which developed around the eighth millennium BC. So this featured 1189 01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:17,240 Speaker 1: a system of clay tokens to represent individual units of 1190 01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:20,960 Speaker 1: various commodities. So like one uh, you know, sheep, One 1191 01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:23,880 Speaker 1: sheep would be one sheep token because it was that 1192 01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:27,640 Speaker 1: simple and uh, these were pretty useful for keeping track 1193 01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:32,480 Speaker 1: of of of these commodities as we're dealing now with, uh, 1194 01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:35,200 Speaker 1: you know, with with cultures that that had a surplus 1195 01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:38,920 Speaker 1: of things in there there was trade going on. Um. 1196 01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:43,760 Speaker 1: These tokens remained in useful around umt BC, when more 1197 01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:47,960 Speaker 1: complex tokens came into play, and you would have clay 1198 01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:51,880 Speaker 1: envelopes which were eventually developed to hold these tokens, and 1199 01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:54,800 Speaker 1: then you would stamp those envelopes to indicate the contents, 1200 01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:58,400 Speaker 1: and this stamping would eventually lead to solid clay tablet 1201 01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:03,280 Speaker 1: writing and pictograph writing, logo grams or word signs, and 1202 01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:08,560 Speaker 1: in sequential writing systems. But written language in this emerges 1203 01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:12,880 Speaker 1: from counting technology, from the systems of making lists. Yeah, 1204 01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:15,600 Speaker 1: I've read this theory before, I uh, and this is 1205 01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:18,240 Speaker 1: really interesting. The idea that like the first written language 1206 01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:23,320 Speaker 1: emerged from trade and originally was more pictographic, but but 1207 01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:27,040 Speaker 1: became more symbolic as time goes on, and this led 1208 01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:30,560 Speaker 1: to phonetic alphabets. Right now, a great deal of what 1209 01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:33,520 Speaker 1: we do with written language is highly sequential. Even in 1210 01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:37,200 Speaker 1: the case of say, nonlinear narratives and fiction, there is 1211 01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:39,680 Speaker 1: still is an order to what you're being presented with, 1212 01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:43,240 Speaker 1: even if that order is is altered, you know, it's 1213 01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:48,320 Speaker 1: it's maybe not chronological anymore, but there is still an order, 1214 01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:51,320 Speaker 1: Like there is a sequence that you're presented with, and 1215 01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:56,280 Speaker 1: that sequence presumably means something, whether you're presenting something in 1216 01:04:56,280 --> 01:05:00,240 Speaker 1: in reverse chronological order or you're skipping around in time, 1217 01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:04,240 Speaker 1: et cetera. And of course we also ultimately experience, remember, 1218 01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:07,680 Speaker 1: and anticipate the universe as a series of sequential events. 1219 01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:11,120 Speaker 1: So this is one of those areas where it begins 1220 01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:13,120 Speaker 1: to sort of you know, hurt the brain a little bit, 1221 01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:18,240 Speaker 1: but like you know what comes first, right, Like to 1222 01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:23,080 Speaker 1: what extent is the Is this sequential experience the linear 1223 01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:30,040 Speaker 1: existence of of life? Is it dictated by our language writing, 1224 01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:33,440 Speaker 1: list making nature or is it the other way around? Well, 1225 01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:35,680 Speaker 1: that is a great question. I mean, the physics of 1226 01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:39,080 Speaker 1: time is no different for other animals, right, I mean 1227 01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:41,760 Speaker 1: their experience of time might be different than ours, but 1228 01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:47,360 Speaker 1: like it's not the case that like, uh, chimpanzees live 1229 01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:50,880 Speaker 1: their lives out of order, they also experience an order 1230 01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:53,520 Speaker 1: of events. They might not perceive it like we do. 1231 01:05:54,320 --> 01:05:56,680 Speaker 1: But yeah, I do wonder about that. With language, are 1232 01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:59,840 Speaker 1: we like, are we homo album us or whatever? The 1233 01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:02,800 Speaker 1: list the list making ape? Is that what we are? Well, 1234 01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:05,880 Speaker 1: I'll tell you this, Uh, list making apes have have 1235 01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:09,080 Speaker 1: achieved an awful lot when it comes to making lists. 1236 01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:12,120 Speaker 1: And one of the one of the hallmarks of this 1237 01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:15,160 Speaker 1: that I think we we both found kind of independently 1238 01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:18,040 Speaker 1: in our our searching, is that there is an actual 1239 01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:20,920 Speaker 1: Wikipedia article out there that is a list of lists 1240 01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:23,080 Speaker 1: of lists. It is so good. The intro to this 1241 01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:25,840 Speaker 1: page reads as follows. This is a list of articles 1242 01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:29,040 Speaker 1: that are lists of list articles on the English Wikipedia. 1243 01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:32,000 Speaker 1: In other words, each of the articles linked here is 1244 01:06:32,040 --> 01:06:35,000 Speaker 1: an index up to multiple lists on a topic. Some 1245 01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:38,360 Speaker 1: of the linked articles are themselves lists of lists of lists. 1246 01:06:38,680 --> 01:06:41,160 Speaker 1: This article is also a list of lists. You know, 1247 01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:44,200 Speaker 1: it's not surprising that Wikipedia is where you would encounter 1248 01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:47,000 Speaker 1: a list of lists of lists, because Wikipedia is an 1249 01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:51,000 Speaker 1: example of encyclopedic thinking, which is an attempt, however feeble 1250 01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:55,360 Speaker 1: on our part, to impose order and understanding on a world, 1251 01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:58,080 Speaker 1: on a world where you know, things do exist in 1252 01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:01,240 Speaker 1: relation to each other, but order is sort of it's 1253 01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:05,840 Speaker 1: it's our attempt to master the chaos of reality to say, like, okay, 1254 01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:08,400 Speaker 1: here's how we can put things into categories. It's also 1255 01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:11,000 Speaker 1: sort of the project of Aristotle, right, I mean Aristotle 1256 01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:14,440 Speaker 1: like to divide things and put them in categories and 1257 01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:17,360 Speaker 1: make lists of lists of things. You could say that 1258 01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:20,480 Speaker 1: list making is in one way sort of deep at 1259 01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:23,280 Speaker 1: the core of the scholastic impulse. It's, you know, when 1260 01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:25,320 Speaker 1: you're thinking about what it means to be a scholar 1261 01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:28,600 Speaker 1: to study the world. It's to like put things in 1262 01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:32,920 Speaker 1: boxes where they conceptually go and organize the boxes, or 1263 01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:34,880 Speaker 1: to wander out in the into the garden and name 1264 01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:39,240 Speaker 1: all the animals. Right. Yeah, Well another funny thing mentioning 1265 01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:41,880 Speaker 1: the garden is um the authors of that book I 1266 01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:44,640 Speaker 1: was talking about earlier. They point out that Genesis one 1267 01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:47,440 Speaker 1: is essentially a list. On the first day, it is 1268 01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:51,120 Speaker 1: a to do list. It's just like, seriously, it is 1269 01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:54,360 Speaker 1: a divine to do list, and then it gives way 1270 01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:58,520 Speaker 1: to like listing animals and stuff and says that the 1271 01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:02,240 Speaker 1: first task give to man when he was created is 1272 01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:04,400 Speaker 1: to name all the animals, which is to create a 1273 01:08:04,440 --> 01:08:08,440 Speaker 1: list make more lists. Now I have somebody to make 1274 01:08:08,560 --> 01:08:12,120 Speaker 1: lists with me. That was the major accomplishment there. Well, 1275 01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:14,560 Speaker 1: that is until that somebody broke the only commandment on 1276 01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:17,680 Speaker 1: the list of thou shalt not so yes. Yeah, but 1277 01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:20,559 Speaker 1: oh goodness. Getting into rules and laws though, that's a whole. 1278 01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:23,479 Speaker 1: That's a whole another area of list making that we 1279 01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:26,439 Speaker 1: didn't really get into here, just the the the essential 1280 01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:29,519 Speaker 1: nature of of law, like and really that's that's part 1281 01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:31,880 Speaker 1: of the same process going on. Like it's one thing 1282 01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:36,720 Speaker 1: to say you there subject, uh do right, or you know, 1283 01:08:37,080 --> 01:08:40,719 Speaker 1: behave yourself. That's this one thing. But if you say, actually, 1284 01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:43,519 Speaker 1: here's a here are the ten steps to not be 1285 01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:46,600 Speaker 1: executed by my high guard. Here are ten steps to 1286 01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:50,160 Speaker 1: not be cast outside the city gates and consumed by 1287 01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:52,720 Speaker 1: the jackals and h and then you're like, okay, I 1288 01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:55,280 Speaker 1: can probably do these things. Well, it's a way of 1289 01:08:55,320 --> 01:08:59,000 Speaker 1: making like virtue or righteousness. You can divide it in 1290 01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:01,120 Speaker 1: the same way Echo does us with He's like, okay, 1291 01:09:01,160 --> 01:09:03,320 Speaker 1: you can give a definition of something, or you can 1292 01:09:03,360 --> 01:09:05,680 Speaker 1: give a list of examples of it. You can do 1293 01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:08,280 Speaker 1: the same thing with like righteousness or the law. You 1294 01:09:08,320 --> 01:09:10,599 Speaker 1: could say you give somebody a principle like do unto 1295 01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:13,200 Speaker 1: others as they would do unto you or something, or 1296 01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:15,519 Speaker 1: you can give them just a long list of rules 1297 01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:18,519 Speaker 1: like don't do this, don't do that, do this. Both 1298 01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:21,120 Speaker 1: our approaches humans have used, and I guess they both 1299 01:09:21,160 --> 01:09:24,320 Speaker 1: have their advantages, right, because like the the more like 1300 01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:29,479 Speaker 1: single principle based system feels more flexible and takes into 1301 01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:33,000 Speaker 1: account more of the you know, the diversity of human 1302 01:09:33,040 --> 01:09:35,760 Speaker 1: life and the different things you'll experience. Is less legalistic 1303 01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:38,200 Speaker 1: and intolerant, and on the other hand, the list of 1304 01:09:38,280 --> 01:09:40,760 Speaker 1: rules is less ambiguous. You're like, like, if you just 1305 01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:43,559 Speaker 1: follow a gigantic list of rules, you're less likely to 1306 01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:47,160 Speaker 1: accidentally get into trouble, right, Like, you're more likely to 1307 01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:51,680 Speaker 1: give a list of commandments to say a robot or two, 1308 01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:54,360 Speaker 1: or to robocopp er whoever, as opposed to a principle, 1309 01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:57,360 Speaker 1: or at least you give them rules alongside the principle. 1310 01:09:57,479 --> 01:09:59,719 Speaker 1: All right, So there you have it, the world of lists. 1311 01:10:00,200 --> 01:10:03,439 Speaker 1: I would say, bekase, Sorry, we just ended up like 1312 01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:06,240 Speaker 1: trying to list all the different ways that you can 1313 01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:08,519 Speaker 1: use a list or think about a list. I think 1314 01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:10,920 Speaker 1: that's what this turned into. This episode, by the way, 1315 01:10:11,080 --> 01:10:13,920 Speaker 1: one of the top ten episodes we put out this month. 1316 01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:16,960 Speaker 1: I would, I would say, just to pat ourselves on 1317 01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:19,679 Speaker 1: the back. Um, obviously, this is gonna be a topic 1318 01:10:19,720 --> 01:10:22,639 Speaker 1: that a lot of people have thoughts about out there. 1319 01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:26,519 Speaker 1: You're gonna have varying degrees of success with with to 1320 01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:30,400 Speaker 1: do lists, You're gonna have varying thoughts on top ten lists, 1321 01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:32,760 Speaker 1: et cetera. Just sort of the list obsessed nature of 1322 01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:34,880 Speaker 1: our culture, and we would love to hear from you 1323 01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:37,519 Speaker 1: about it. What are your top thirty seven reactions to 1324 01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:40,720 Speaker 1: this episode. Yes, lists them, rank them, share them with us. 1325 01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:42,679 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you want to check out more 1326 01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:44,920 Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, head on over 1327 01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:48,040 Speaker 1: to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's the mothership. 1328 01:10:48,080 --> 01:10:51,360 Speaker 1: That's where you'll find all the podcast episodes. You'll find 1329 01:10:51,400 --> 01:10:53,760 Speaker 1: blog posts. You'll find some lists on there from back 1330 01:10:53,800 --> 01:10:56,880 Speaker 1: when we were doing more text based content. You also 1331 01:10:56,880 --> 01:10:59,960 Speaker 1: find links out to our various social media accounts. If 1332 01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:01,400 Speaker 1: you want to support the show, there are a few 1333 01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:03,880 Speaker 1: different things you can do. UH. You can buy some merchandise. 1334 01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:06,200 Speaker 1: We have a t public store with some cool logos 1335 01:11:06,280 --> 01:11:09,320 Speaker 1: and designs. But the best thing you can do is, 1336 01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:11,320 Speaker 1: first of all, spread the word. Let other people know 1337 01:11:11,360 --> 01:11:13,679 Speaker 1: about Stuff to Blow your Mind. You know, post about 1338 01:11:13,760 --> 01:11:17,200 Speaker 1: us uh in your online discussions, mentioned us to people 1339 01:11:17,200 --> 01:11:21,600 Speaker 1: on the street. UH. Likewise, you need to subscribe to 1340 01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:24,240 Speaker 1: this show as well as Invention, and rate and review 1341 01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:26,040 Speaker 1: us wherever you have the power to do so. Give 1342 01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:28,400 Speaker 1: us some stars, give us a nice review. It helps 1343 01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:32,559 Speaker 1: out the almighty algorithms that govern our world. Hey have 1344 01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:36,080 Speaker 1: you not subscribed to Invention yet? Are you seriously not subscribed? 1345 01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:39,360 Speaker 1: If you're not, go check out Inventions subscribe it's our 1346 01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:42,200 Speaker 1: other podcast, It's about inventions. If you like this one, 1347 01:11:42,280 --> 01:11:45,160 Speaker 1: we're pretty sure you'll like that one too, go subscribe. 1348 01:11:45,479 --> 01:11:49,040 Speaker 1: But anyway, big thanks to our excellent audio producers, Alex 1349 01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:51,640 Speaker 1: Williams and try Harrison. If you would like to get 1350 01:11:51,680 --> 01:11:54,479 Speaker 1: in touch with us directly with feedback about this episode 1351 01:11:54,520 --> 01:11:57,599 Speaker 1: or any other, with suggestions for the future, or just 1352 01:11:57,680 --> 01:11:59,720 Speaker 1: to say hello, let us know how you found out 1353 01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:02,360 Speaker 1: about show where you listen from. What your top ten 1354 01:12:02,479 --> 01:12:05,840 Speaker 1: list of lists of lists are? Uh? List, I think 1355 01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:08,120 Speaker 1: I'd screwed up the plural there. Anyway, you can email 1356 01:12:08,200 --> 01:12:10,880 Speaker 1: us at blow the Mind at how stuff works dot 1357 01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:22,879 Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 1358 01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:47,240 Speaker 1: Is it how stuff works dot com