1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: Body bus, But Joseph's gotten more. Let me throw something 2 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: out there to you. If you had a chance to 3 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: once again hold in your arms that person that you 4 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: love most on this earth that has now passed on, 5 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: would you do it? What price would you pay? Would 6 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 1: you drop a million bucks? If you had it? Half 7 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 1: a mil and I mean to really sit down and 8 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,599 Speaker 1: hold them, to maybe look at them one more time, 9 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: maybe have a conversation. Would you do that? I know 10 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: for me personally, the person I would want to bring 11 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: back into my life is my grandmother. I love that woman, 12 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: think about her every day. But what if I told 13 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: you it could cost you, I don't know, thirty five bucks, 14 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: ninety bucks, six hundred, what say you? Well? In this 15 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: case that we're going to talk about today, we're not 16 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: talking about holding the reanimated remains of someone that you loved. 17 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: We're talking about an anatomical element of someone that was 18 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: once loved by someone else. We're going to explore a 19 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: case that popped onto our radar in just these last 20 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: few days about a person who is selling elements of 21 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: human remains down in Florida. Joining you from the beautiful 22 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: campus of Jacksonville State University in Jacksonville, Alabama. I'm Joseph 23 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. Hey, Dave, speaking of 24 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: the jack State. Guess what. 25 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 2: I'm guessing, go for it. 26 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: We just got approved yesterday by the Board of Trustees 27 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 1: for our master's degree in investigative forensics. It's been a 28 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: long time coming after committee. Well, it means that you're 29 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: going to be able to come here and do graduate 30 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 1: research work in the areas of trace evidence, the areas 31 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: of toxicology, crim seene investigation, and of course my favorite, 32 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: personal favorite is going to be medical legal death investigation 33 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: as well as cold case. So it's a big deal. 34 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: It's going to be the first program of its type 35 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 1: in our particular region of the country. And we've been 36 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,079 Speaker 1: around as a forensics institution since about nineteen seventy four, 37 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: so we predate a lot of these Johnny Come latelys 38 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 1: that you see that are out there. We've been doing 39 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: this for a while. But hey, you know what, there's 40 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: one other element that gets added to this as well, Dave, 41 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: I am going to have a cadaver lab. I'm going 42 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: to have a cadaver lab here on campus where we 43 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: will have human remains that we will be doing examinations 44 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: of in the medical legal courses that we teach here, 45 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: and we're going to be teaching some human anatomy obviously, 46 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: what goes into an autopsy and how to collect evidence 47 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: off of human remains. How cool is that? 48 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 2: That's pretty amazing, you know, from the get go, expanding 49 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 2: what you already have. You've built up such a respected 50 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 2: program nationwide and internationally. Actually that I'm glad that it's 51 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 2: I'm glad they're doing that, I really am. I think 52 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 2: it's a very wise move. You know. JASU is a 53 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 2: wonderful college. It's a hidden gym. And I'm proud the 54 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 2: fact that two of my kids went to JSU and 55 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 2: actually my three all three of my oldest ones actually 56 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 2: attended JAYSU at some point in time or another. Because 57 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,919 Speaker 2: it's a fine institution, and I believe it or not, 58 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 2: it's an affordable college, you know, but it's an amazing 59 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,239 Speaker 2: place to learn and anyways. 60 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 1: And I think I think it's probably one of the 61 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: most beautiful locations in the Deep South. Yeah, we have 62 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: ringed by mountains. It's absolutely gorgeous. That's why you said Jim, 63 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 1: you said hidden, you said hidden. Gim. Actually the nickname 64 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: for the campus is called the Gym of the Hills 65 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: because it is so absolutely gorgeous, you know, everywhere you look. 66 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 2: I just always wonder if Jeff gets mad. You know, 67 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 2: we always talk about Jim, but Jeff never gets mentioned 68 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 2: brothers named Jim. 69 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: And yet it's yeah. 70 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 2: You're talking about them bones again, right, and so yeah, 71 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 2: when why can't you just use plastic bones that look 72 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 2: like real ones to study human anatomy and teach everything 73 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 2: with that. Why do you need real bones? 74 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: Well, first off, you're not going to have the same density, 75 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: you're not going to have the same texture. Now, look, 76 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: at some point in tom down the road, there will 77 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: probably be a facsimile that you would have to look 78 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: at microscopically to determine that you're not holding an actual 79 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: human remain in your hands. It makes me think of 80 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: the movie Blade Runner, where they had to look at 81 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: things microscopically to look for serial numbers that are at 82 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: a cellular level that are tagged on there to see 83 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 1: that you know whether or not something was human or 84 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: not back then in that movie. I love both of 85 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: those movies, by the way, the one from the eighties 86 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: and then the second part that came out a few 87 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,679 Speaker 1: years later with Ryan Wait, what's his name, Ryan Gossel. Yeah, 88 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: and yeah, that might happen at some point in time, 89 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: but it doesn't matter. You know what kind of polymer 90 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: that you use to recreate bones, And I've got I've 91 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: actually got a full skeleton in my office that is 92 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: made out of a polymer, and I can use it 93 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 1: demonstrably in classroom to talk about anatomical landmarks on skeletal remains, 94 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 1: and the kids can come up, you know, kind of 95 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: handle the remains and we have individual polymer bones as well. 96 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 1: You know, so if we're going to do, like in forensics, 97 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: one of the things we'll do, like I teach a 98 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: class and it's called clandestine burials where we can take remains, 99 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 1: dig a clandestine grave and bury them and the students 100 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 1: can learn how to excavate that site and they're looking 101 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: for bones at different depths or skeletal you know, skeletal 102 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: elements that are beneath the surface of the ground. They're 103 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: good for that purpose and you can use to identify 104 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 1: a specific anatomical landmarks, like where particular blood vessel passes 105 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,119 Speaker 1: through a bone. You know, there's actually these little holes 106 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: in bone and here's an interesting little factoid. They're actually 107 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: known as foramen. So you've got these tiny little holes 108 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: that pass their bone where vessels go through. And of 109 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: course the largest framen that we have in our body 110 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: is called the foramen magnum and it's at the base 111 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: of the skull and it's where it's where your spinal 112 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: cord originates out of the brain stem, and it's this 113 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: large area in the back of your head, and that's 114 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: actually referred to as a framan as well. But you 115 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: look for anatomical landmarkings like that, and until you hold 116 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: a human bone and really feel it and really feel 117 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: the texture of it, it's really hard to learn. That's 118 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: you know, that's why, for instance, the Body Farm, but 119 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: UT has been so successful over the years because it's 120 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: not just you the students that utilize that facility. You've 121 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: got people from all over the world that have attended 122 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: classes there. And look, I'm you know, I don't get 123 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: paid by UT for promoting their program. But it's the 124 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: first of its kind, and it's actually a human desticcation 125 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: laboratory where they're watching human remains decay and you know, 126 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: measuring the rates of decay. But it's very environmentally specific 127 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: to that area up adjacent to the Smoky Mountains, you know, 128 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: whereas if you went down to the Maple Center, which 129 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: is another human desiccation lab that's located at the University 130 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 1: of Florida, you're gonna have different rates there. But I digress. 131 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 1: You know, you go to these places and you can 132 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: actually handle real human remains. What we're not expecting though, 133 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: is to be able to order human remains off of 134 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: the Internet so that we can do whatever in the 135 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: hell we want to do with them. 136 00:08:51,640 --> 00:09:01,319 Speaker 2: Saw sales paper Joe, Yeah, yeah, exactly, Because. 137 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: You know, the case that we're going to talk about today, brother, 138 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:05,719 Speaker 1: this is not the first one that we've had. I 139 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: don't know if you recall, I guess it was last year. 140 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 1: It was in twenty twenty three. We covered the case 141 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: of the funeral home director out in Colorado and she's 142 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: she's currently serving twenty years twenty years, and that was 143 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: a federal beef that they got her on relative to 144 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: they were taking anatomical elements off of bodies. In other words, 145 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: they were dissecting bodies, you know, and packaging those things 146 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: up and selling them to those individuals that wanted to 147 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: possess these things. And this is something that has been 148 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: going on. You know, I know times are tough all over, 149 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: but really you're going to take a body and break 150 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: it down into its base elements and sell it, you know, 151 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: how desperately do you need money? But in the case today, this, 152 00:09:55,559 --> 00:10:00,319 Speaker 1: I think this case entered onto kind of the or 153 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 1: came into focus for the FEDS and they initiated an 154 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: investigation into these individuals or individual it's been charts so far. 155 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 2: It all came from a tip. You know, It's amazing 156 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 2: to me how people that are involved in criminal enterprise 157 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 2: when they don't take care of everyone, and because of 158 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: who they are and their character of ripping everybody off, 159 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 2: they rip off the wrong person at some point in time, 160 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 2: and somebody's going to pick up the phone and say, hey, 161 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 2: go check out Joe Schmoe over here. I know he's 162 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 2: selling body parts. Which I'm not going to say that's 163 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 2: exactly what happened, but that is exactly what happened. Somebody 164 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 2: called the police and said, hey, these people are selling 165 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 2: body parts. They're selling you know, they're selling skeletal remains, 166 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 2: they're selling bones. And here's the other part of it, Joe, 167 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 2: they weren't doing it in a back door out of 168 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 2: the trunk of their car at night. We're talking about 169 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 2: using Facebook Marketplace to put up a sale sheet on 170 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 2: sale this week, okay, and I'm not kidding. I looked 171 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 2: it up and there's actually a list. You could buy 172 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 2: two two, not one. Two human skull fragments just ninety dollars. 173 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 2: A human clappical and scapula ninety dollars. A human rib 174 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 2: ninety five dollars. Joe Wynn, have you ever seen a 175 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 2: human rib for just ninety five dollars? Go ahead, get three. 176 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 2: Actually it's thirty five dollars I dollars. Anyway, They're all 177 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 2: like that they've got these prices next to these bones, 178 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 2: even a partial human skull six hundred dollars. And Kimberly 179 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 2: Shopper has been doing this for a number of years. 180 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 2: She has a what's called a curio store in Florida, 181 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 2: and it seems like the bulk of her business was 182 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 2: done on Facebook Marketplace, along with her daughter that they 183 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 2: run a website and some other things. But Joe, is 184 00:11:55,200 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 2: it illegal to buy and sell human bone? 185 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: Yeah? It is, particularly in a non regulated manner like this. 186 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: You know, They're like when I mentioned to you that 187 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,839 Speaker 1: we're going to have anatomical specimens here at the university. 188 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: That's it's highly regulated, you know, for any number of reasons, 189 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:20,599 Speaker 1: the least of which is not respect for families. And 190 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: that's you know, that's kind of one of the big 191 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 1: pieces here. No pun intended. It's you know, when you 192 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: have no really you know, when you. 193 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 2: Have you know what you slipped up behind me with 194 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 2: a two buy for Joe. I didn't see that coming, 195 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 2: not at all for you. 196 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: Well, otherwise I'd be hanging curveball. But yeah, I'm just 197 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: saying it's you know, I make a lot out of 198 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: and I think that we a'll toute our own horn. 199 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: I think we do a really good job on body 200 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: bags of talking about the victims. You know, they're always 201 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: in the forefront for us. It's something that I said 202 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: to you when we started this enterprise that we were 203 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: going to do. We're going to focus more, hopefully on 204 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: the victims than we are on the perpetrators. Perpetrators get 205 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: enough ink splashed about them. And I don't care how 206 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: old the bones are. I don't care if they're antique. Uh, 207 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: you know, however you want to our vintage, I guess 208 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: that's the more cachet way of saying it. That makes 209 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: little or no difference to me. You know what, what 210 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: in the world are you doing peddling human remains? Because look, 211 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: you mentioned Facebook marketplace. All right, I got to tell you. 212 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: There's one member of my family. I'm not going to 213 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: mention their name, but their first initial is kimmy my wife. 214 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: She she's bought clothing and toys for my grandchildren off 215 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: a Facebook marketplace. It's something she's a she's a big 216 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,559 Speaker 1: flea market person as well, or not flea market, but 217 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: my thirst store as well. We've always, you know, been 218 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: kind of simple folks like that, and so she'll go 219 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: on there. And so I'm thinking, all right, now, let 220 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: me get this straight. The same location, now again it's regionalized, 221 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:17,959 Speaker 1: but the same location where you're selling you know, your 222 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: kids play school items, perhaps because your kids are have 223 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: outgrown them, maybe they're what's the term they gently used 224 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: or whatever right there. And then oh, well, what's this? 225 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: This looks interesting? You click on it. I guess it's 226 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: depending upon the algorithm. But all of a sudden you're 227 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: staring at scapula. It's like, wow, what is that? Oh 228 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: a scapula, a shoulder bone, you know, are you kidding me? 229 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: And I think that the thing that's so shocking, if 230 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: there is anything that can shock you or I, is 231 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: the fact that it's done in such an open way 232 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: that there's no fear of it. You know that it's 233 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: that it's acceptable. But I have to say, yeah, yeah, 234 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: and it's it's shocking. It's shocking to the point that 235 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: if you you know, we had a case some time 236 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: ago where there were graves being robbed and elements were 237 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: being taken from the grave and being sold. Okay, and 238 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: that has happened. We actually covered in an authorm case. 239 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember that of the skull 240 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: of the lady from the eighteen hundreds and she was 241 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: finally identified. Somebody had robbed that grave. Can you imagine 242 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: how heartbroken that family was when that happened. And so 243 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: anytime I hear something like this, I don't I don't 244 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: necessarily think about the individuals that are doing it, that 245 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: are selling. I think about the pain that they have caused, 246 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: because you're in a brand new world now. If they 247 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: get these remains and they send maybe a sample of 248 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: these remains to somebody like our friends at authorm Labs. 249 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: Guess what, it ain't just going to be any old 250 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: scapula or any old collar bone or any old rib. 251 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: Those elements are going to belong to somebody's family. You know, 252 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: you're a police officer and you get to work and 253 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: it's a daily grind. You're handling all manner of cases 254 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: that are popping up either via the nine to one 255 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: one or somebody walks in, they make a report or 256 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: something like that. So you're just mining your old business. 257 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: You've handled burglaries or all with this, maybe you've handled 258 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 1: an assault, and all of a sudden, this request for 259 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: an investigation comes in across your desk and it says, 260 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 1: we got this person down the street that's selling human remains. 261 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: You know, how do you deal with that at that 262 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: point in time? And I think that that's this is 263 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: landed in the lap of a local police department there 264 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: in Florida day Orange County. 265 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, it actually began. 266 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 1: And I. 267 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 2: Sometimes make light of things only because it's like a 268 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 2: building a wall a little bit, because if you actually 269 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 2: really look into this and you go to that next 270 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 2: level of family, friends, people who care about the individual, 271 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 2: it can really, it can really stumble you emotionally, and 272 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 2: so I tend to take the lighter route. But this one, 273 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 2: I was really curious when you were talking to me 274 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: about this, because we have done other stories where people 275 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 2: did it for nefarious means. Meaning you mentioned the funeral 276 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 2: home where they were, you know, selling one bill of 277 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 2: goods to the Breave family, and then they were, you know, 278 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 2: taking and selling things for profit that they had no 279 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 2: right to do, thankfully caught and going in in prison. 280 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 2: But in this case, the Orange City Police Department in 281 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 2: Florida gets a call about a person that is selling 282 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 2: human bones on Facebook marketplace. And her name is Kimberly Shopper, 283 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 2: appropriate name for the story. She's fifty two years old 284 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 2: and she's now facing charges Joe of trading in human tissue. Now, 285 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 2: when officers went to her store, she does own a 286 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 2: brick or rents the space for a brick and mortar story. Okay, 287 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 2: it's a curio shop of some sort. And the police 288 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 2: go and they talk to the owners and the people 289 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 2: at this store are like, well, yeah, we sell those bones. 290 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:58,640 Speaker 2: They're verified here, you know, in their minds what they're doing. 291 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 2: While distasteful for me any people, it serves a purpose 292 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 2: in their world, and they didn't think they were doing 293 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 2: anything wrong, so they say, but they were able to 294 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 2: confirm everything police were. The investigation did not end there 295 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 2: because there were laws being broken. And just because you 296 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 2: don't know that cocaine is illegal, snorting and selling buying 297 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 2: what have you is and you will go to court 298 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 2: and jail. You can claim I didn't know same thing here. 299 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 2: You're buying and selling in human body parts. Verified human 300 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 2: body are not body parts but bones. And to say 301 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 2: I didn't know it was illegal, while it might be true, 302 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 2: it does not relieve you of the consequences of breaking 303 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 2: that law, especially when you're doing it for a profit. 304 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: Justice Scott Morgan, Yeah, I got to tell you. I 305 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: checked out their website, which is still up and running, 306 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: and it actually carries a dot org designation, which generally 307 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: means that you're a charit organization. You know, you're I 308 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: don't know, a soup kitchen or a church or something 309 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: like this, and I'm thinking, well, isn't that fascinating. You know, 310 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 1: so you're not making a profit off of this, or 311 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,199 Speaker 1: profits go somewhere else. And when you look through the 312 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: list of the things that are being sold there, there's 313 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: like a category called creepy clowns, and there's images of 314 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: iron spikes and things like that. And look, I mean, 315 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: I'm not one of these people that says to each 316 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: their own. I think that there are limits, you know, 317 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: in this world. But I'm trying to understand, you know, 318 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 1: we have to have some guardrails out there. I'm thinking, well, 319 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: how do you conflate creepy clowns? If this is what 320 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: your business is, how do you conflate that with human remains? 321 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: Because you know, I don't know, these look like figurines, 322 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: these clowns. Many people have a fear of clowns, and 323 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: is there something evil about these that you know? If 324 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: people want them because they've got this creepy there's a 325 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: creepy element to them. And so you're you're going to 326 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 1: be selling these as well as human remains. And I'm thinking, 327 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 1: what is this business and why are you doing this? 328 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: Because it's failing to register with me because the only 329 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 1: purpose that I see that I see for possessing human 330 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 1: remains is the purpose of instruction period end of paragraph. 331 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,120 Speaker 1: There is no further discussion at all, because if you're 332 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: getting off into an area where you're utilizing the remains 333 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: of someone's loved one for either your own entertainment or 334 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: a ghoulish sidebar, or even for dare I say, religious purposes. 335 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 1: You're only a completely different plane here than everybody else. 336 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,360 Speaker 1: You're you know, we're not the ones that are out 337 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: of tune here. You are because it's it's horrible, you know, 338 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: to think about this. Why would you why would you 339 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 1: want to possess this, and why would you want to 340 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: purvey it to other people? And what's the purpose that 341 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: these individuals that are purchasing these items? Why do they 342 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: want it? Are they going to put it in the 343 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: center of the table and dance around it at night? 344 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: Or are they going to put it out on the 345 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: table during cocktail arter a hour and say, hey, look 346 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: what I'd got? Are they going to grind it up 347 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: and drink it in a potion? I don't. I don't 348 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: understand it. It doesn't It doesn't make sense to me 349 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: at all on any level. I don't think that there's 350 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: any justification for it at all. You know, and hopefully 351 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: they're not being used as soup bones, you know, where 352 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: you're trying to generate a broth of some kind. I 353 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: have no idea because it's not being explained to me thoroughly. 354 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: I don't I don't understand it. And look, I think 355 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: that many people that last statement, in particularly many people 356 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: in the past, would have been God, that's that's obscene. 357 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,360 Speaker 1: You shouldn't have said that. The world that we live 358 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: in now, Dave, it ain't obscene, brother. 359 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 2: And I am so glad it's. 360 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: On the radar. I'll put it to you that way. 361 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 2: I am so glad you said that, because my first thought, Joe, 362 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 2: when I start going into the story, my first one 363 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 2: was what come on now? It really was that moment 364 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 2: of this is off the table. This is kind of 365 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 2: like me going and talking to a retailer about why 366 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 2: I really don't want to see a Ouiji board with 367 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 2: the Monopoly game, you know, in on their shelves because 368 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 2: of where my children's eyes will be drawn to that 369 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 2: kind of thing. And as I was researching the woman 370 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 2: Kimberly Shopper, I wanted to find out, well, okay, she's 371 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 2: been accused, and actually it goes beyond the accusation because 372 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 2: she was advertising that she was selling these items and 373 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 2: the dot org don't main extension that. That was something 374 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 2: that also caught my attention because I thought, if it's 375 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 2: a nonprofit or because org stands for organization, and when 376 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 2: it was first set up as a domain, it was 377 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 2: for nonprofits, for ministries, for things like that. Well, we 378 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 2: all know that while you might think of your church 379 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 2: as a religious designation, for whatever organized religion you're a 380 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 2: part of that, there are some that are the opposite 381 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 2: of what many of us think of as churches. And 382 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 2: that's what my first thought drifted to when I went 383 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 2: to the website, because the word wicked says something to me. 384 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 2: It says a lot about what your thoughts are on 385 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 2: the world at large, who you are, what you do, 386 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,479 Speaker 2: and when you start attaching these See I was thinking 387 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,959 Speaker 2: that for educational purposes, having bones and things like that 388 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 2: to sell and trade what have you would remain at 389 00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 2: the university level and beyond I didn't think, but I 390 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 2: didn't think it was illegal. 391 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: To possess university or research or research level. And then 392 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: when you put the connotation wicked with it, it conjures 393 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: up no. Pun intended something completely different here as far 394 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 1: as a purpose. I think because I'm you know what, 395 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: because I got to tell you if we need to 396 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: have a serious discussion, first off. If this is being 397 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: used for a religious purpose, well, what religion requires you 398 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,880 Speaker 1: to use human remains? All right? Because I don't care. 399 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 1: I mean, there have been and the court recognizes the 400 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: smallest element of the human body as a human or 401 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: an element of a human remain. There have been people 402 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: that have been convicted based upon discovery of a bone chip. 403 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 1: I cite to you murdering Colwita County. If no one 404 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,199 Speaker 1: believes me, go back and take a look at that 405 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: case where a single bon ship led to the conviction 406 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: and ultimate, ultimately the execution of a fellow that had 407 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: killed another fellow. Okay, that's one consideration. Now the other 408 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 1: consideration is our human remains being used for the purposes 409 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: of entertainment. Now we're when you start to talk about entertainment, 410 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: we're at a completely different level now with that. I'm 411 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: not saying you can justify religion. But if you get 412 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: off into this idea that you're using the dead in 413 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: order to entertain others, or you're providing human remains to 414 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: that end, I think that it's it's chilling, it's really chilling, 415 00:26:49,320 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: and ultimately I think it's wicked. Dave, We've covered I 416 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: know that We've covered the Skelter recovery out of Georgia 417 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 1: from many years back. You and I did an episode 418 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 1: of Body Bags on the skeletal remains that they found 419 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: at the old medical school. Remember we talked about that, 420 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 1: how it was illegal due to autopsies, so they would 421 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: do them at night. They had grave robbers that they 422 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 1: would employ. We had the funeral home director that was 423 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:43,439 Speaker 1: you know outside that was actually in Colorado where you 424 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 1: know this individual, Megan Hess it was forty six at 425 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: the time, as I had previously mentioned, was taking remains 426 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: at her funeral home and dissecting them up and selling 427 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: off the parts to, you know, to the highest bidder. 428 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: And you know, we've got a history of this that 429 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: goes back years and years and I think probably one 430 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: of the most predominant countries that has been a part 431 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,440 Speaker 1: of this. Is something I learned early on, particularly when 432 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: I started my academic career, the origin of human remains 433 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: and sale of human remains in India. This goes back 434 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: to the initial beginnings of British occupation in India. India 435 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: has always been a very populous location and about the 436 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: same time that Great Britain took over in India, you 437 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: saw a loosening of the attitudes toward using real anatomical 438 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: specimens at medical schools and universities. So what began to 439 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: happen is that this is kind of fascinating, is that 440 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: there were a lot of grave diggers. There a lot 441 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: of gray robbers in India. And because the Ganges, which 442 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: is considered to be a holy river, bodies would be 443 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: buried adjacent to it or would be cast adrift in 444 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: the river and either the bodies would be very shallow 445 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: and they could be retrieved, or they would be essentially 446 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: fished out of the river and they were taken to 447 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: these individuals that would take the bodies, that pay the 448 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: engine because this is really ghastly. They would take the 449 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: bodies and render them down. They would take off every 450 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: bit of soft tissue off of these bodies, disarticulate the 451 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: skeleton and rearticulate it and then send it send it 452 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: to Europe to medical colleges there. And they would actually 453 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: have to go through Nepal to do this. So there 454 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,479 Speaker 1: was this huge market thousands and thousands of bodies, and 455 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: many years ago it was actually in an anatomical lab 456 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: I won't say where, but and there was an old, 457 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: old skeleton in there, and it had that kind of 458 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: yellow patina to it that bone gets after a period 459 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: of time. And it was actually inked up on the 460 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: side of the body. And this doesn't necessarily have anything 461 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: to do with India itself, but with Indian ink, you've 462 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: heard that term before, and it's like a it's a 463 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: fountain a fountain ink and gives you an indication of 464 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: how all these remains were. They were labeled with this 465 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: really dark ink and written and you know, there was 466 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: script written on the side of them. Kind of chilling 467 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: when you see it. But from an artifact standpoint, it 468 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: was significant because this was hanging up in an anatomical lab. 469 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 1: But we've moved so far beyond that now that if 470 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: you need human remains, they can in fact be purchased 471 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: for the use of research and medical study. It's nothing 472 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: to be able to acquire these. You have to go 473 00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: through the right purveyors in order to get your it. 474 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: But you're telling me, and what I have read, they're 475 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: not just there are specific anatomical bits to this, but 476 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: you're talking about bone fragments and actually skull fragments, and 477 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: this is one thing that's really disturbing to me about 478 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: that issue. If this individual had a couple of bone 479 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:32,479 Speaker 1: human skull fragments, okay, that they were selling, does that 480 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: mean follow me here. Does that mean that someone at 481 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: some point in time took a human skeleton, a skull 482 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: and particulated it, in other words, took a hammer and 483 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: busted it up into smaller pieces. And each individual piece 484 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: of that skull has value for people that are interested 485 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: in buying this. And here's the thing, because when and 486 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: you consider what we refer to antomically as the external 487 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: table of the skull, that is with the frontal bone, 488 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 1: the parietal, the temporal bones, the occipital bones, the whole 489 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: nine yards, you're telling me that if you get a 490 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: fragment's bone, you're going to take that one fragment that 491 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: you have that you purchased, what was it for thirty 492 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: five bucks, You're going to do an antomical study on that. 493 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: Is that what you're going to use it for? You're 494 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: going to be able to identify that and say, well, 495 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: let me consider this. Yeah, this is obviously from the 496 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: frontel the right frontal aspect of a human skull. What's 497 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: your purpose in doing that? What landmarks are you going 498 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: to identify what are you using that for. As far 499 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: as academic edification, it doesn't make sense at all. And 500 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: those skull elements that were for sale, there's been an 501 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: indication by investigators because I can almost guarantee you that, 502 00:32:55,480 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: and they've got in Florida, they've got some of the 503 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: finest forensic anthropologists in the country. I like to call 504 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: them osteologists, people that actually study human bone in the 505 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: country are located down there. And I can tell you 506 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: that Florida Department of Law Enforcement, the Medical Examiner system 507 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: down there, the Orange City Police Department, they all came 508 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: together and they turned these remains over to these human 509 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: osteologists forensic anthropologists in other words, and they've studied these 510 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: things and they've been able to come up with a 511 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: time sequencing on these things. And also if these bones 512 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: have been fragmented, one interesting piece to this day is 513 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: did this fragmentation occur anti mortem before death or did 514 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: it accur post mortem? And they would be able to 515 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: pick up on that as well. So if you're talking 516 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: about an anti mortem fracturing of this bone, then you've 517 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: got a bone that was potentially involved in some kind 518 00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: of violent act that led to a death. And I 519 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: don't care how long or how old the bone is. 520 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: You can say that it's an antiquity piece. Prove it 521 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: to me. Prove it to me. If that's the case, 522 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: you're still talking about a human remain that has been 523 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: traumatized in you're selling this. I don't. Again, it's hard 524 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 1: to take the measure of it, Dave. 525 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 2: Well, that's where I began looking into it, Joe, because 526 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 2: when I first came at this, my thought was along 527 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 2: the educational lines of what they could be doing. Now 528 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 2: that's the giving it the benefit of the doubt, you know, 529 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 2: not going in with a preordained idea of what this 530 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 2: is going to be about. But one thing that I 531 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,760 Speaker 2: noticed was again she claimed the person who was arrested here, 532 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:46,359 Speaker 2: Kimberly Shopper said she didn't know it was illegal to buy, sell, 533 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 2: and trade in human bones, but she knew enough about 534 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 2: the law to tell police these were for educational models, 535 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 2: which is what you were just talking about a minute ago. 536 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 2: What could be gained educationally from this piece? And again, 537 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 2: you're not getting these from a lab or some I 538 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 2: would expect that an educational sample would come from a 539 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 2: lab or from some state. 540 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: Anatomical board. Yes, Yeah, the State Anatomical Board controls all 541 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 1: human remains relative to those that are going to be 542 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: scientifically gifted. Okay. And when I say scientific I'm not 543 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: talking about somebody that's gifted in science. I'm talking about 544 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: where a human remain has been designated as a gift 545 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: to science, you know, instead of being buried or cremated. 546 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: I want my body to go to X. Okay, and 547 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: that that is tightly I mean I've worked with these 548 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 1: people in three different states and it's tightly regulated in 549 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,840 Speaker 1: every single state. That's who, you know, controls the strings 550 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 1: relative to education. I've had to jump through those hoops, 551 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 1: you know, in order to facilitate acquisition. So I find 552 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: it very curious that that that's her fallback position. Here, Dabi, well. 553 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 2: Side the store here and you are looking on the 554 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 2: shelf and you see a partial skull, a human skull, 555 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 2: next to a cookie jar that looks like a rams head, 556 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 2: you know, and next to that is I don't know, 557 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 2: and you name it just these little knickknacks, okay, And 558 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 2: that's what it seems to be. I just can't imagine 559 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 2: buying something for educational purposes and study in a curio 560 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:35,280 Speaker 2: shop or for that matter online through Facebook marketplace. Now, 561 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 2: when I started looking into this, and this is why 562 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 2: I reached out to you on this, Joe, because there 563 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 2: are in our world we study and look at a 564 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 2: lot of different crimes, criminals, what they've done. And one 565 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 2: of the things that I've been watching over the years 566 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 2: is the Son of Sam murders in New York and 567 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 2: how they are tied to a killing in mine on 568 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 2: North Dakota and out at Stanford and that whole thing 569 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 2: that writer Maury Terry did a lot of work on. 570 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 2: And one of the things that came out of that book, 571 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 2: whether you go down that rabbit hole or not, was 572 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 2: that in each of these areas they found where there 573 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,879 Speaker 2: had been blood sacrifice dogs in particular German shepherds more specifically, 574 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 2: where they had these satanic type of events taking place 575 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 2: at night. They had sacrifice sacrificed animals and they were 576 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 2: using German shepherds, and the bones and things were left 577 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,959 Speaker 2: behind at these different scenes. And to go this next 578 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 2: level up, I looked at the website. I looked. I 579 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,280 Speaker 2: wanted to see who is this person that's been arrested, 580 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 2: Kimberly Shopper. And that's why I sent this to you 581 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 2: earlier because I'm like, hey man, there's more to this. 582 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 2: There's something with this that is not as simply explained 583 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,760 Speaker 2: as I'm a scientific nut trying to help other scientific 584 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 2: nuts learn. It's not educational to sell a sliver of bone. 585 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 2: It doesn't make any sense to me unless you were 586 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 2: doing something that is pertaining to some type of religious 587 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:14,760 Speaker 2: expression that would fall under using a dot org domain. 588 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 2: And then I see the website and when you have 589 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 2: wicked in the title of your website, and it's a 590 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,360 Speaker 2: part of all of your presentations for sales, Wicked and 591 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 2: things like that, following the left hand path. These are 592 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,919 Speaker 2: all witches and things like that when you talk about 593 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:35,840 Speaker 2: following the left handed path. And I saw that on 594 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 2: the website. So my question to you, Joe, is if 595 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 2: you're buying and selling and trading in bones, human bones 596 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:47,319 Speaker 2: on an educational level at the collegiate level or even 597 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 2: at the high school level, I don't know that's one thing, 598 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 2: but for me to buy a bone so I can 599 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 2: dance around, to put feathers in it, burn candles, and 600 00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 2: invite my friends to come over and sing songs while 601 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 2: we answer around this human bone that seems to be 602 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,320 Speaker 2: something that ought to be regulated. Oh wait a minute, 603 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,720 Speaker 2: it is regulated. So how does she get by selling 604 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 2: it at Facebook Marketplace for so many years without anybody 605 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 2: shutting it down until now? 606 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,720 Speaker 1: I don't know? You know again that that would be something. 607 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 1: You know, what are the if the authorities are on 608 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 1: Facebook Marketplace and we always hear that we're being watched 609 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: and everything. This is certainly something that flew beneath the 610 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: radar because I got to tell you, it would send 611 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 1: up red flags for me. And here's here's one more 612 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,479 Speaker 1: issue with this that I have, Dave, and I'm sure 613 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,879 Speaker 1: that investigators are exploring this right now. How many other 614 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:46,360 Speaker 1: elements have gone have been sold? Because if this is 615 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: what they found right now, how long has this been 616 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,240 Speaker 1: going on? And I think one of the bigger questions 617 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: is is where were these things acquired from? Because now 618 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 1: you're opening up a completely different different spectrum here. You know, 619 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:12,919 Speaker 1: it's fascinating because one of the kind of catchphrases that's 620 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,320 Speaker 1: used on this website is talking about going down the 621 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,719 Speaker 1: rabbit hole. Well, in our case today, I have to 622 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: tell you there's an entirely different rabbit hole that the 623 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,360 Speaker 1: authorities are going to go down. This investigation has just 624 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 1: started and it will go deeper and deeper until solid 625 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: answers are provided. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 626 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:40,919 Speaker 1: body Back