1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,600
Speaker 1: How do refrigerators keep food cold? Who really invented the radio?

2
00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:08,000
Speaker 1: What was the worst video game of all time? On

3
00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,560
Speaker 1: Tech Stuff, we answer these questions and more. You can

4
00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,160
Speaker 1: get brand new episodes of tech Stuff every Wednesday on Spotify,

5
00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:25,120
Speaker 1: Google Play, iTunes, and anywhere else you get podcasts. Welcome

6
00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,000
Speaker 1: to Stuff Mob Never Told You from House top Works

7
00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:36,400
Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

8
00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,519
Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline and dearly beloved, we gathered here today

9
00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:46,559
Speaker 1: to get through this thing called Prince's death. I know

10
00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,120
Speaker 1: that's beautiful. Oh my god, Well I didn't write it.

11
00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:55,360
Speaker 1: Prince did. Prince Rogers Nelson. Prince Rogers Nelson dead at

12
00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,680
Speaker 1: and Caroline and I had been planning to do an

13
00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:05,839
Speaker 1: EPISO so about queer and androgynous fashion before the tragedy happened,

14
00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,720
Speaker 1: And as soon as we learned in the Stuff Mom

15
00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:18,720
Speaker 1: Never Told You podcast studios that Prince died, we realized that, oh,

16
00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,520
Speaker 1: this fashion episode, this has got to be for Prince. Yeah,

17
00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,160
Speaker 1: it's got to be, because honestly, he is the perfect

18
00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:32,440
Speaker 1: encapsulation of so many queer and androgynous fashion talking points. Yeah. Well,

19
00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:37,039
Speaker 1: and also such an example of how we often think

20
00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,440
Speaker 1: about androgynous into androgynous fashion, I should say into narrow

21
00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:46,839
Speaker 1: terms exactly. He mean, he kind of visually myth busts

22
00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,360
Speaker 1: what we think of when we think of androgynous fashion,

23
00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:51,760
Speaker 1: which I feel like is often like when I think

24
00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,280
Speaker 1: of it, I think of like a a very thin,

25
00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,480
Speaker 1: pale person with a bowl cut and a very large,

26
00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:06,360
Speaker 1: bulky um T shirt like a long you know, a

27
00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:11,280
Speaker 1: Garfield night shirt. I think of Garfield night shirts. That's true.

28
00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,960
Speaker 1: Who knew it was the height of androgyneus fashion. But

29
00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:19,000
Speaker 1: I mean as soon though, as word of Prince's death spread,

30
00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:23,720
Speaker 1: we started to see all of these remembrances and appreciations

31
00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:28,080
Speaker 1: of him based around his fashion and also his just

32
00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,959
Speaker 1: like outright gender fluidity and his fashion presentation. Yeah, I

33
00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,680
Speaker 1: mean it's it was really incredible to see the outpouring

34
00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:42,200
Speaker 1: of fans who were celebrating him, not only for his

35
00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,920
Speaker 1: music because he is a was oh god, was a

36
00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:50,639
Speaker 1: hyper talented musician, but just the effect that he had

37
00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:56,240
Speaker 1: on people by blowing through this world with such confidence

38
00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:00,560
Speaker 1: and sense of self. And he really did not care,

39
00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,919
Speaker 1: or he outwardly did not appear to care, uh what

40
00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:06,919
Speaker 1: people thought of him. I mean he's a guy who

41
00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,959
Speaker 1: blurred all of the lines with between gender and ethnicity

42
00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:15,239
Speaker 1: and sexuality. I mean, for him, it was about the art,

43
00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,800
Speaker 1: and I think that that inspired so many kids of

44
00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,560
Speaker 1: whatever gender or sexuality. Well, and all of that too

45
00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:26,640
Speaker 1: reflects his music and how he blurred so many different

46
00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:31,519
Speaker 1: genres that he just seemed to also instantly master. Um. So,

47
00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:37,760
Speaker 1: before we get into a beautiful timeline of princess clothes,

48
00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:40,440
Speaker 1: which I can't wait for, um, and I can't wait

49
00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:42,560
Speaker 1: to tell you what my favorite outfit of his is

50
00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,960
Speaker 1: that I really want, Um, let's talk a little bit

51
00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:51,720
Speaker 1: about the history and evolution of androgynous or queer fashion

52
00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:57,440
Speaker 1: that really toyed with in Trench gender norms. Yeah, and

53
00:03:57,680 --> 00:03:59,720
Speaker 1: we we've kind of already addressed this idea that we

54
00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,360
Speaker 1: tend to think of androgynous fashion is basically skinny white

55
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,400
Speaker 1: women donning men's wear, despite the fact that the word

56
00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,640
Speaker 1: androgynous means of indeterminate sex. Because when you think about it,

57
00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,480
Speaker 1: like what does androgyn is fashion in magazines, for instance,

58
00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,040
Speaker 1: tend to look like, right, it does tend to be

59
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,600
Speaker 1: some skinny model, you know, like maybe she's got her

60
00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,320
Speaker 1: head shaved. But it does tend to be like white

61
00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:27,400
Speaker 1: women wearing button ups or loafers or something, and in

62
00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:31,840
Speaker 1: very muted tones, there would have been no purple. No,

63
00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,920
Speaker 1: no purple at all. Um. But what's so great about

64
00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,039
Speaker 1: Prince and why we wanted to tie him into this

65
00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:42,960
Speaker 1: conversation is because by adopting the frills and the heels,

66
00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,960
Speaker 1: and the glitter and the hair due and the polka dog. Yeah,

67
00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,120
Speaker 1: don't forget the crop tops and the peek a boo

68
00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:55,360
Speaker 1: laser cut yellow chaps. Uh. He really showed us that

69
00:04:55,640 --> 00:05:00,200
Speaker 1: androgynous fashion is more than some skinny white person in

70
00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:05,839
Speaker 1: a magazine, that it is men adopting other looks as well.

71
00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:10,400
Speaker 1: And he also proved that you actually can you being

72
00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:14,360
Speaker 1: really only Prince Rogers Nelson can make peek a boo

73
00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,640
Speaker 1: laser cut yellow chaps work. Yeah, Oh for sure. And

74
00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:20,719
Speaker 1: I mean the shoulder pads on them. Really, I mean

75
00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,359
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know the shoulder pads in the chaps.

76
00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,400
Speaker 1: Shoulder pads would be amazing. Yeah, would those be hip

77
00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:31,360
Speaker 1: hip pads? I don't know. Um. But first, okay, yeah,

78
00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,679
Speaker 1: like christ and said, let's first dive into the history

79
00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:37,680
Speaker 1: and evolution of what we're calling queer or androgynous fashion,

80
00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:39,919
Speaker 1: not that those two are necessarily the same thing, but

81
00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,280
Speaker 1: you know, there's a venn diagram um and a lot

82
00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,480
Speaker 1: of this information we need to credit to Marlon Coomar,

83
00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,000
Speaker 1: who read a fabulous history in Bustle, Kimberly Christmin Campbell,

84
00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,080
Speaker 1: who read a great article about this in The Atlantic,

85
00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,440
Speaker 1: and Emily Eldridge, who wrote a thesis in the Journal

86
00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:59,640
Speaker 1: of Anthropology. And as we walk through the history of

87
00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,760
Speaker 1: queer fashion, we're also walking through the history of how

88
00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,800
Speaker 1: people looked at gender. Yeah, I mean, because before there

89
00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,000
Speaker 1: was a time when our clothing wasn't gendered at all.

90
00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,880
Speaker 1: Pretty much everyone was wearing tunics, you know, everyone was

91
00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:19,960
Speaker 1: wearing those Garfield t shirts around Caroline perfect. So as

92
00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,560
Speaker 1: fashion as we think about it today develops, it does

93
00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,039
Speaker 1: gradually go through this gendering process that takes a while.

94
00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,320
Speaker 1: But as Joe Barracklaw Palletti notes in her book Pink

95
00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,640
Speaker 1: and Blue, Telling the Boys from the Girls in America, quote,

96
00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:39,160
Speaker 1: gender distinctions are among the oldest and most widespread functions

97
00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:43,039
Speaker 1: of dress. And if we look, for instance, though at

98
00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,680
Speaker 1: a in fourteen thirty one, at Joan of arc I mean,

99
00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:51,000
Speaker 1: she's kind of the original androgyny pioneer, because one of

100
00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,920
Speaker 1: the reasons why she was denounced by the Inquisition and

101
00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:58,720
Speaker 1: burned alive was because she really claimed that it was

102
00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,320
Speaker 1: God's command for her to win air men's clothes, keep

103
00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,719
Speaker 1: her hair cut short, and keep quote no garment which

104
00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:10,040
Speaker 1: might indicate her sex. Her fashion was on fire. Yeah,

105
00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:15,400
Speaker 1: I mean hash I too soon, um, but that right there,

106
00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,040
Speaker 1: no garment which might indicate her sex. That's the definition

107
00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:23,440
Speaker 1: of androgeny, right. That is, someone who would not necessarily

108
00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:30,000
Speaker 1: be the definition of sexless would be uh, Louie, not

109
00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,760
Speaker 1: by not by any stretch. If if Joan of arc

110
00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:40,920
Speaker 1: was plane tunic sexless bowl cut. Yeah, and now I'm

111
00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,720
Speaker 1: just picturing Javier Bardem from No Country for Old Men,

112
00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,320
Speaker 1: which is not I'm my brain is like leaving me

113
00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:51,000
Speaker 1: behind on a tangent. But anyway, Louis in the eighteenth

114
00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:57,000
Speaker 1: century totally decked himself out in colorful fabric, lace, ribbons, jewels,

115
00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:01,880
Speaker 1: feather and embroidery, and he really embodied the idea and

116
00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,280
Speaker 1: the concept that you can be powerful and masculine but

117
00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,840
Speaker 1: also pretty because honestly, wearing all this stuff showed off

118
00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,080
Speaker 1: your wealth. Oh yeah, I mean because before fashion really

119
00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:17,680
Speaker 1: became signals of gender. That kind of opulent, almost prince

120
00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:22,680
Speaker 1: esque fashion would have signaled wealth and status. No one

121
00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:24,960
Speaker 1: would have seen Louis the fourteenth and been like, well,

122
00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:30,160
Speaker 1: someone's a pretty feminine in his wardrobe, because I mean,

123
00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:35,040
Speaker 1: at that time it was money really that equaled masculinity.

124
00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,120
Speaker 1: So I mean, there's no worries that someone might think

125
00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,840
Speaker 1: you too fancified. I mean, of course, Louis the fourteenth

126
00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:46,720
Speaker 1: also famously wore his high heels that had red souls

127
00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,280
Speaker 1: on them, and only he in the court was allowed

128
00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,080
Speaker 1: to wear the red souled um high heels, which of

129
00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:57,120
Speaker 1: course now are the trademark look of Lubaton high heels.

130
00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:01,800
Speaker 1: But then soon enough women started co opting high heels.

131
00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,440
Speaker 1: But then you get the gendering, not of heels and

132
00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:10,640
Speaker 1: flats like flats for dudes, but just a widening of heels.

133
00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:12,280
Speaker 1: Like guys were like, okay, you know what we're gonna

134
00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,800
Speaker 1: We're gonna keep wearing these high heels. Ladies are short

135
00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:16,839
Speaker 1: and do it too. It's okay, we'll just wear a

136
00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,120
Speaker 1: chunky heel. Guys, everybody get the memo. Is a chunky

137
00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,600
Speaker 1: heel for dudes, narrow heels for the ladies. I want

138
00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,520
Speaker 1: to get that memo yield heeldie memo. Is there a

139
00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:28,240
Speaker 1: newsletter that went out? I mean they have like a

140
00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:33,400
Speaker 1: little pigeon facts service. Is he about to creed chunky

141
00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:38,480
Speaker 1: heel theilnail that to a church store? Um? And in

142
00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:43,120
Speaker 1: the nineteenth century we see the emergence of the London dandy. Uh.

143
00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,960
Speaker 1: This guy is is super fashionable and he is what

144
00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:50,240
Speaker 1: we would today label effeminine, carrying a basically just a

145
00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,000
Speaker 1: bunch about his appearance. And at the same time, though,

146
00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:55,840
Speaker 1: on the lady side of things, you've got advocates for

147
00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,160
Speaker 1: reform dress. Kristen and I have talked about reform dress

148
00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,840
Speaker 1: a lot on the podcast, and this is women adopting bloomers,

149
00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:04,840
Speaker 1: trashing their heavier garb because people are like, oh wait,

150
00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:06,880
Speaker 1: like if I fall in the water, I'll drown because

151
00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:08,800
Speaker 1: my clothes are so heavy, and also I can't breathe

152
00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,520
Speaker 1: and my rib cage and organs are misshapen. Now, so really,

153
00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,199
Speaker 1: before we had the second wave feminists throwing their bras

154
00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,160
Speaker 1: into a trash can on the Atlantic City boardwalk in

155
00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:22,480
Speaker 1: the late sixties, we have the reform dress suffragist throwing

156
00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:27,320
Speaker 1: their they're heavy skirts in a what would they have

157
00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:31,600
Speaker 1: just like a fire, an old fire, sure, a fire

158
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:33,680
Speaker 1: or I don't know why. I'm assuming they didn't have

159
00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,440
Speaker 1: trash cans. They threw them into the back of a

160
00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:38,640
Speaker 1: buggy and hit the horse on the butt, so it

161
00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,200
Speaker 1: ran away. Is that is that elaborate enough? I think

162
00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,800
Speaker 1: that I think that's that's true. Um, But of course

163
00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:50,240
Speaker 1: the um, the dandie fashion would wear away, just quick note. Um,

164
00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:54,000
Speaker 1: it's evident in the song Yankee Doodle Dandy. That's when

165
00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,000
Speaker 1: we see, now I'm serious, when we see this dandy

166
00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:03,000
Speaker 1: a sentiment becoming reviled as like oh no, guys, like

167
00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,720
Speaker 1: we we need to get serious with our clothes. And

168
00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,440
Speaker 1: it was actually something called the Great Masculine Renunciation, which

169
00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,800
Speaker 1: was this kind of fashion turning point in the later

170
00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,959
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds where men were like, okay, send out another

171
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:21,360
Speaker 1: pigeon memo. We need to start wearing way more boring clothes.

172
00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,440
Speaker 1: So this is when we just get suits kind of yeah,

173
00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,880
Speaker 1: it's like leading the way to the suit. Interesting, but

174
00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,920
Speaker 1: what and you know, we'll get into this. But the suit,

175
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:37,120
Speaker 1: which is like boring standard man uniform, would become radical women.

176
00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:40,640
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean you just get the boring gray

177
00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:45,880
Speaker 1: like coat and pants and shoes until Caroline, is it

178
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,440
Speaker 1: pants or a pant? Lord Stacy London, London, where are

179
00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,640
Speaker 1: you somewhere wearing a pant? Yeah? Probably a pant or

180
00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,480
Speaker 1: cropped pants since its spring. Oh maybe, um well, cool

181
00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,080
Speaker 1: lots are back. Oh god, um okay. So in the

182
00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:05,120
Speaker 1: early twentieth century, Paul Poire sets women free. We've done

183
00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,240
Speaker 1: a whole episode on this man, which I highly encouraged

184
00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:13,920
Speaker 1: that you go listen to. But his freewheeling, lucy goosey

185
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,960
Speaker 1: designs freed women from their corsets and ushered in in

186
00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:23,440
Speaker 1: dresses kind of a long, lean, impure wiste, as Stacy

187
00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:28,679
Speaker 1: London would say. But his designs also included harem pants.

188
00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:32,440
Speaker 1: I remember when what was the daughter's name, the youngest

189
00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,679
Speaker 1: daughter's name in Downton Abbey, Sybil Sybil. She came home,

190
00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,400
Speaker 1: uh with with some harem panned outfits and then look

191
00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:45,120
Speaker 1: what happened to her spoiler spoiler um. And again what's

192
00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:49,000
Speaker 1: going on simultaneously is you have that famous Coco Chanel

193
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,520
Speaker 1: creating a more masculine silhouette for fashionable ladies of the

194
00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,160
Speaker 1: time because she believed that you should be able to

195
00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:02,480
Speaker 1: dress in a way that expresses you pant or skirt, whatever.

196
00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,640
Speaker 1: But if we look at Hollywood and women's androgynous fashion,

197
00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:12,400
Speaker 1: it starts to arise in the nineteen thirties and forties,

198
00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:17,720
Speaker 1: kind of sporadically. Um, but really the androgynous fashion fashion

199
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:23,160
Speaker 1: plate would have been Marlena Diedrich, who um in a

200
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,520
Speaker 1: film of hers whose name is Escaping Me right Now,

201
00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:30,760
Speaker 1: where she plays a cabaret performer. She has a scene

202
00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,960
Speaker 1: where she comes out looking amazing in a top hat

203
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:42,000
Speaker 1: and tuxedo and she kisses a woman on the lips. Scandalous. Well,

204
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,959
Speaker 1: and Marlena Dietrich, let's bring it full circle for stuff

205
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:49,120
Speaker 1: I've never told you fans. She was friends with Anime Wong,

206
00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,880
Speaker 1: who we talked about in our episode about um, the

207
00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:57,560
Speaker 1: fetishization of Asian women. Um. But Dietrich even off screen

208
00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,319
Speaker 1: with sport pants and even a suit from time to time,

209
00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:06,400
Speaker 1: just like Katherine Hepburn. That's right, Katherine Hepburn, daughter of

210
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:10,200
Speaker 1: a suffragist who I'm pretty sure and you know, listeners,

211
00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:11,920
Speaker 1: you can always tell us if you're interested in this,

212
00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,400
Speaker 1: I want to do it anyway. I kind of She

213
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:15,840
Speaker 1: was the daughter of a suffragist, and I want to

214
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,520
Speaker 1: do a double episode on Katherine Hepburn and her mom

215
00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,520
Speaker 1: because they were such impressive ladies together. But writing about Hepburn,

216
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,280
Speaker 1: Coomar talks about and I don't know if I had

217
00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,080
Speaker 1: heard this story before, I had not, so writing about

218
00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:35,560
Speaker 1: Katherine Hepburn in particular, uh Comar says that Hepburn threatened

219
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:40,800
Speaker 1: film executives with walking around set in her underwear when

220
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:45,320
Speaker 1: they swiped her pant outfit. Yeah, Hepburn was like, well,

221
00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:50,960
Speaker 1: I'm going to wear my my pants or my panties exactly. Um.

222
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,080
Speaker 1: When we get to the nineteen fifties after World War Two,

223
00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:59,640
Speaker 1: this is when we first have the development, slowly but surely,

224
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,080
Speaker 1: the divi elopment of even the term gender coming to

225
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,840
Speaker 1: mean what we think of it today, describing the social

226
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:12,600
Speaker 1: and culturally created and constructed roles that we associate with

227
00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:17,880
Speaker 1: biological sex. But that's really happening in the background. Um.

228
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,840
Speaker 1: But when it comes to fashion, of course, post World

229
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:25,520
Speaker 1: War Two, I mean it becomes very gender segregated. Dad's

230
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,840
Speaker 1: in the suit, Mom is in her Betty Draper costume. Well, yeah,

231
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,840
Speaker 1: I mean because Mom was essentially sent back to the

232
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,120
Speaker 1: kitchen when dad came back from the war and wanted

233
00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,200
Speaker 1: his job back. So all of a sudden, again, this

234
00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,520
Speaker 1: is another a sminty topic that we've tackled before, that

235
00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,160
Speaker 1: those gender roles, we see them get really entrenched post

236
00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,840
Speaker 1: war because of men coming back and wanting to reassert

237
00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,160
Speaker 1: their place in society while their wives had been out working.

238
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,000
Speaker 1: And then the nineteen sixties we see a reaction against that.

239
00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,240
Speaker 1: And Joe Paletti we cited earlier in her book Sex

240
00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,520
Speaker 1: and Unisex Fashion Feminine Is Them and the Sexual Revolution

241
00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:06,920
Speaker 1: talks about how sixties unisex clothes our reaction to that

242
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,240
Speaker 1: gender stereotyping and a nod to the idea that gender

243
00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:18,000
Speaker 1: and biological sex might not totally equate. But as with

244
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:23,560
Speaker 1: our kind of stereotypical idea of androgynist fashion today, that

245
00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:30,000
Speaker 1: fashion focus more on women adopting masculine silhouettes rather than say, oh, well, guys,

246
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,720
Speaker 1: here's a skirt for you. Um. But also during this

247
00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:38,240
Speaker 1: time we have this London counter culture of the teddy

248
00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:43,680
Speaker 1: boys who dressed like Edwardian dandies, and there are so

249
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,680
Speaker 1: many fantastic photos of them online, and they had teddy

250
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:53,760
Speaker 1: girl counterparts who wore lots of structured blazers, blouses, and trousers.

251
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,600
Speaker 1: They would often still wear skirts but still had um

252
00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:01,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess you could say semi androgyna suiting

253
00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:06,800
Speaker 1: the almost like a Janelle Monet kind of situation. Yes, yes, well,

254
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,560
Speaker 1: and especially with their updos to yeah. Yeah. And you're

255
00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:15,760
Speaker 1: also seeing the rise of super slender models like Twiggy, who,

256
00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,560
Speaker 1: while she was obviously a super cute woman, still had

257
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:24,919
Speaker 1: that more flat androgynous figure. And in nineteen sixty six,

258
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:29,160
Speaker 1: years after Marlene Dietrich first sported her tuxedo in that

259
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,639
Speaker 1: movie and Kissed a Woman, Eve St Laurent created the

260
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:39,000
Speaker 1: first tuxedo specifically for women, and writing about this creation,

261
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:45,040
Speaker 1: comar sites uh St Lawren's muse Violetta Sanchez, who explained

262
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:49,439
Speaker 1: that it was super radical, especially among the stuffy bourgeois,

263
00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:54,280
Speaker 1: that to see women quote take possession of man's attire

264
00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,160
Speaker 1: and the freedom it gave her. It took her out

265
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,640
Speaker 1: of that spot where she was frat Jill. And we'll

266
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,040
Speaker 1: see that concept to come up again in the eighties

267
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,600
Speaker 1: with one particular musician. Now, I gotta tell you that Caroline,

268
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:12,120
Speaker 1: that St Laurent tuxedo really just kinda looks like a tuxedo,

269
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:14,240
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's not like it was

270
00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:16,879
Speaker 1: radical at the time, right, I mean, it's a woman

271
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,360
Speaker 1: in a tuxedo. But so for listeners, if you're trying

272
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:25,800
Speaker 1: to picture what it looks like, just picture a tuxedo. Um.

273
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,160
Speaker 1: Then in nineteen sixty eight, a couple of years later,

274
00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:32,560
Speaker 1: you have designers including Pierre Cardan and Paco Raban creating

275
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,359
Speaker 1: these unisex almost space ag fashions with a lot of

276
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:42,600
Speaker 1: synthetic fabrics. So ste're clear fires, fires friends, um and

277
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:47,359
Speaker 1: department stores. Very briefly, I mean we're talking only in

278
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,199
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight. For a few months, got in on

279
00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:55,879
Speaker 1: the trend and even set up unisex sections. But then

280
00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,200
Speaker 1: that kind of gave way to cute, cere non threatening

281
00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,359
Speaker 1: his in hers fashion, So his and hers versions of

282
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,159
Speaker 1: the same kinds of things like the jumpsuits. Hasn't her

283
00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,280
Speaker 1: jumpsuits that I really want my fiance and I to

284
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:13,720
Speaker 1: gut He doesn't know this yet, Yeah, just uh subtly,

285
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,040
Speaker 1: subtly passed this episode along to him. Well, and you

286
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:18,720
Speaker 1: know it's an honor of Prince and all of his

287
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,880
Speaker 1: Paisley jumpsuits. So why should we not wear them? That's

288
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,240
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, man, uh, you know. And so again

289
00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:31,400
Speaker 1: we've been focusing so much on women adopting male silhouettes.

290
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,160
Speaker 1: But in these sixties and the same era, rock stars

291
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,880
Speaker 1: get in on the fund, people like Jimmy Hendrix, Mick

292
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:42,959
Speaker 1: Jagger and especially David Bowie. These guys start toying with

293
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,159
Speaker 1: gender and they're adopting the frills, the hip huggers, the glitter,

294
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,240
Speaker 1: the prince and especially the heels. And I hadn't heard

295
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:53,639
Speaker 1: this term before, Caroline Um. But this fashion movement modeled

296
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,919
Speaker 1: by these rock as uh is called the Peacock Revolution.

297
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,479
Speaker 1: I love it. That emerged in London and it was

298
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:08,680
Speaker 1: coinciding with the decriminalization of homosexuality and also the sexual revolution.

299
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,520
Speaker 1: And quick side note, um, if anyone's interested in some

300
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:17,520
Speaker 1: related summer reading, I highly recommend the Oral History. Please

301
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,000
Speaker 1: kill me about the punk movement that gets into some

302
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:25,680
Speaker 1: of this stuff. And well, it's interesting though, I mean fashion.

303
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,520
Speaker 1: You can never say that fashion is a political because

304
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:34,960
Speaker 1: this Peacock Revolution was not only a way for straight

305
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:39,159
Speaker 1: and buy guys to play with gender and fashion and

306
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,880
Speaker 1: looks uh and norms, but it was also a way

307
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:47,200
Speaker 1: for closeted gay men to be able to explore these

308
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,480
Speaker 1: looks as well without having to come out of the closet.

309
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,560
Speaker 1: If it's part of the fashion trend and it's being

310
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 1: demonstrated by like super masculine sex gods like Mick Jagger

311
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,879
Speaker 1: and David Bowie, will in I can get away with

312
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,840
Speaker 1: it too and not have to come out as a

313
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:11,159
Speaker 1: gay man. Yet so as opposed to those unisex fashions

314
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,240
Speaker 1: designed you know, by those like high end names, it

315
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,160
Speaker 1: seems like this movement in the sixties is peacock revolution

316
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:21,600
Speaker 1: is a legit queering of fashion right, because it's definitely

317
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 1: not taking the sex, and I mean that as both

318
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,879
Speaker 1: biological sex and sex sex. It's not removing it from

319
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 1: the clothes or from the person wearing them. If anything,

320
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 1: it is emphasizing the sex of the person wearing it.

321
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 1: Whether that is a woman in a like a sci

322
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:43,479
Speaker 1: fi movie and she's wearing a quote unquote unisex tunic

323
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 1: but of course it shows off her figure, or whether

324
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 1: that is someone like Mick Jagger and hip huggers or

325
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 1: David Bowie and his many many outfits, it's still emphasizes

326
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 1: the sex of the person but you're right, this is

327
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,959
Speaker 1: when we start to see the queering of fashion and all.

328
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,000
Speaker 1: This continues along with punk music into the seventies and

329
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 1: eighties with bands like the New York Dolls. And you

330
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,879
Speaker 1: see trends though, um that you now see in I

331
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:10,960
Speaker 1: want to say it was it's really popular in South

332
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 1: Korea of guys and girls dressing exactly alike, wearing the

333
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 1: same clothes. Um. And you also have trends at home

334
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 1: of non gendered child rearing that sounds a lot like

335
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 1: what we hear about in terms of parenting today. And

336
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 1: in terms of high fashion, you have Halston's Ultra Suade

337
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,200
Speaker 1: shirt dress that was a feminine twist on men's wear.

338
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:40,200
Speaker 1: So what Halston did was basically take a button down shirt,

339
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:48,440
Speaker 1: lengthen it, belt it, and sway defy it, sway defy it. Perfect. Yeah.

340
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,119
Speaker 1: And so while working women are adopting trousers and pikats

341
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 1: and dress shirts, men are sporting mandarin collar jackets, tunics, turtlenecks,

342
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 1: ponchas and Ascot's fair listeners. Just google unisex ponchos from

343
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,439
Speaker 1: the seventies and just look at the glory that is

344
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 1: these crochet atrocities of men and women wearing matching ponchos.

345
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,359
Speaker 1: It's both wonderful and terrible. You know what I would

346
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:22,160
Speaker 1: rather have than matching jumpsuits with mamboo matching calftans. This

347
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 1: was the era of the calftan. And I mean, what

348
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 1: is there a more regal and comfortable garment that someone

349
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 1: can wear than a calftan? I would submit that there

350
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 1: is not. But I love this evolution here because going

351
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,400
Speaker 1: from the New York dolls, so you've got again like

352
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:46,919
Speaker 1: these rockers who are wearing full on makeup, um, you know,

353
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 1: down to the couple pool side in Palm Springs sporting

354
00:23:50,760 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 1: their caftans caftans and getting calf tansy. So moving into

355
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 1: the eighties, and we should put a little asterisk here

356
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 1: because people late seventies early eighties is when prints is emerging.

357
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 1: In the eighties, we see fashions start to retreat back

358
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 1: along gender lines, because nothing is anything more than a

359
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 1: reaction to something else, right, and so you've had all

360
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: of the like genderless child rearing type of things going

361
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:24,919
Speaker 1: on in the seventies. But then you see in the

362
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 1: eighties women you know, needing to be heavily made up

363
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 1: with their hair done in in dresses again in men

364
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,199
Speaker 1: in power suits, but like, yes, that's all true, but

365
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 1: women were wearing very masculine women's where too, what with

366
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 1: their shoulder pads and power suits and stripes on their suits,

367
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: and so then we start to see the queering of

368
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: those suits when women put them on. So you've got

369
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 1: people like Annie Lennox with her orange pixie cut, her

370
00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 1: pinstriped suits, bright lipstick, and she herself is super slender

371
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: and androgynous looking. And then you've got megastar Grace Jones

372
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 1: walking that line between sexy, undeniable woman and basically androgynous

373
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 1: alien from matter space. Oh, Grace Jones, Caroline, we should

374
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: also do an episode on her, just so we can

375
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: luxuriate in her flat top pursuits, her lipstick, her just musculature,

376
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:35,199
Speaker 1: everything that outwardly expressed her complete and total self possession. Um.

377
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: For instance, she has this fabulous quote on when she says,

378
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 1: I never asked for anything in a relationship because I

379
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: have this sugar daddy I've created for myself, and it's me.

380
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 1: I am my own sugar daddy. I have a very

381
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 1: strong male side which I developed to protect my female side,

382
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 1: and if I want diamond necklace, I can go and

383
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: buy myself a diamond necklace. Yeah. I remmember seeing Grace

384
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: Jones when I was really little and like I r

385
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,880
Speaker 1: L Yeah, no, I mean I didn't go see her,

386
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 1: but I mean like in magazines or whatever, and just

387
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: being like, this person is unlike any person I have

388
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 1: seen before, because she was she she was in such

389
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 1: like she had just such self possession. Like you said,

390
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 1: she was fully in control of this powerful, androgynous but

391
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: still sexy image. And then when you move into the

392
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: nineties and you move away from the Grace Jones silhouette,

393
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,239
Speaker 1: you see the revival of the what we saw in

394
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 1: the like sixties and seventies and eighties in terms of

395
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: punk and men and women dressing alike in leather jackets

396
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 1: and jeans and boots and whatever. Because in the emergence

397
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 1: of grunge you see again men and women sporting the

398
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 1: same flannel shirts, ripped jeans, and Doc Martins. But then

399
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: of course you have people like Kurt Cobain wearing baby

400
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:10,479
Speaker 1: doll dresses, pigtails, eyeliner, and women's sunglasses and Caroline I've

401
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: gotta tell you, I just realized that m today as

402
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 1: we're recording this episode, I am wearing a very um

403
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 1: my so called life angela Chase esque baby doll dress.

404
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 1: Did not plan it, but um, I feel very I

405
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 1: feel like I'm really close to the subject now. I'm

406
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: pretty sure I had that dress in seventh grade. Thank you,

407
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: pearl buttons and all. It's it's very comfortable. So we

408
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 1: got a hot back a little bit in our timeline

409
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: to start off our Prince timeline, because he really gets

410
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: going in terms of his public presentation in the late

411
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: seventies and early eighties, and really from the get go,

412
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 1: I mean he's just putting it all out there fashion

413
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: wise and kind kind of literally too, putting it out

414
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: there in the sense of wearing like THI highs and

415
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: bikini bottoms on stage age, much to the chagrin of

416
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 1: Rolling Stones fans who he originally opened for. Um but

417
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 1: he was always blurring those lines between masculine and feminine fashion. Yeah,

418
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 1: and I want to hit on some of the some

419
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: of the high notes, some of the print signatures before

420
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 1: we dive into this timeline. So what's been really interesting

421
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,679
Speaker 1: is to follow these trends that he sets and sets

422
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: for himself, including his sunglasses, you know, he sported everything

423
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: from asymmetrical eight shades to granny glasses two more recently,

424
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: those third eye sunglasses, so they're big and round and

425
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: dark and include one lens over his forehead third eye,

426
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: third eye. Yeah. And and of course the hair, whether

427
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: it was long and flowy curls, worn as a natural

428
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,959
Speaker 1: afrow or in an updo secured with a scarf. And

429
00:28:55,160 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: don't forget the perfectly waxed brows, the perfectly defined mustache

430
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: and beard, and the perfectly defined eyeliner. And don't forget

431
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: about those signature high heels. Um. He famously told Rolling

432
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 1: Stone people say I'm always wearing heels, because I'm sure

433
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: he was five too, by the way, but he said,

434
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: I wear heels because the women like them. Yeah. And

435
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 1: just like with the whole peacock revolution idea, as Vanessa

436
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: Friedman writ in The New York Times, on women, He'll

437
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: suggest sex Prince showed they could function the same way

438
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 1: for men. But I mean he wore them all the time.

439
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: And Mike Tyson's memoir which no, we did not read,

440
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: this was just cited in an article. Um, And Mike

441
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 1: Tyson's memoir, he claims, And I believe it that Prince

442
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: wore them to play basketball. Why not? I mean to me, like,

443
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 1: heels don't even look weird on Prince because they're just

444
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: so him. I kind of imagined that, Um, Prince's feet

445
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: looked like Barbie feet. They're just like already curved and

446
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: and ready to slip into a perfectly fitting he'll. I

447
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: love that so much. Um Okay, so we've got to

448
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: go back to like mid androgeny queering fashion timeline to

449
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: nine because the cover of his second album is just

450
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: him shirtless with flowing wavy hair. But the back, the

451
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 1: back of that album is him naked on a Pegasus.

452
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: So does being naked on a Pegasus count as queer fashion?

453
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, it definitely counts as print fashion

454
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: counts as amazing. Yeah. Oh, I wonder how many people

455
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: will in in Memoriam get prints on a Pegasus tattoos.

456
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: I'm just saying throwing it out there. Um in Uh.

457
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: He rolls up to this place called Flippers Roller Disco

458
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: Boogie Lounge, Want to Go in Los Angeles wearing a

459
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: tank top, bandana, thigh highs, and black underwear, and in

460
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: his dirty Mind and controversy era, he often just sported

461
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: a trench coat, bikini, briefs again the thigh highs, and

462
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: a net kerchief. And uh, it took people a minute

463
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: to get used to this. But if you look at

464
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: the lyrics of a single controversy, you know he's already

465
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: over it. He says, Uh, some people call me rude.

466
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: I wish we all were nude. I wish there was

467
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: no black or white. I wish there were no rules. Yeah,

468
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: so he's fully aware. I mean he has never been

469
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: anything but genuinely that which is blurring those lines. Wishing

470
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: we were nude and there were no rules. Yeah, I

471
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: mean he lived as if there were no rules. He

472
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: was on Pegasus, is on pegasus, is in heels. You know,

473
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: we can't see his feet on the pegasus, so I

474
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: bet if we could see the full photo, he would

475
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: be No, he would probably be in heels. Who knows,

476
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, because you can't really see anything from

477
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: the waist down. He could be in those thigh highs.

478
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: But again, and like, here's an example of him blurring,

479
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: like what would be on a woman super sexy to

480
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: the point of almost inappropriate and titilating, like perhaps a

481
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: stripper would be wearing that on stage, but also blending

482
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: it with like a flasher in the park on this dude,

483
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: and I mean, and it just was him. It was

484
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: so him, And I think it's so funny, not funny,

485
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: but weird and ironic that Rolling Stones fans were booing

486
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: and throwing stuff because hello, we just cited Mick Jagger

487
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: as part of that whole Peacock revolution of blurring those

488
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: gender and fashion lines and part of like queering fashion

489
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: twenty years earlier, and here they are booing him. And

490
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: it was really fascinating to go back and read um

491
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: a piece on prints in the New York Times from

492
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: one where already music critics were like, Okay, this this

493
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: guy is something. He's already a legend, and they were

494
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: fawning over or his um ability to mix music styles

495
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: and his just like sheer talent because he played and

496
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: produced and saying everything. But also to the critic, rights,

497
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: the music transcends racial stereotyping precisely because it's almost all prints.

498
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: Prince himself transcends racial stereotyping because, as he wants put it,

499
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,239
Speaker 1: I never grew up in one particular culture. And you

500
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: can see this critic throughout the piece kind of grappling

501
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: with this this vision of Prince not only what he's hearing,

502
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: but how that collides with what he sees. That's right.

503
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: And in four, what we see is the emergence of

504
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: that iconic purple look with the ruffled shirts. It's the

505
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: look that Dave Chappelle war on The Chapelle Show, and

506
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: it totally echoes Louis the four. And so it was

507
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 1: under the eye of designer Marief Frands that he got

508
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: his Purple Rain look. The ruffles, the pearl studded purple jackets,

509
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: the pink feather shoulder piece, the stacked boots and kristen yes,

510
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:14,839
Speaker 1: the Paisley jumpsuits. And when he accepted his oscar for

511
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 1: the film Purple Rains soundtrack not not Purple Rains, you

512
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 1: know the screenplay. Um, when he won that, he accepted

513
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,879
Speaker 1: it in a black pant suit, black lace gloves and

514
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 1: a glittering purple shawl and heels. But his two um

515
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: lady musicians, the Revolution that he played with, they were

516
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 1: wearing the Purple Rains suiting, which was just a I mean,

517
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: you created a fabulous trio affair. Well yeah, because I

518
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 1: can't remember which woman it was, but she was wearing

519
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: his brocade suit with the pink feather shoulder piece, and

520
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: you see pictures of him wearing the exact same outfit

521
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 1: because he was tiny, just like a lady. Oh you

522
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 1: think that they wore this same I mean it was

523
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: the exact same shoulder piece. I wouldn't be surprised if

524
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 1: it was the same suit. I can't imagine Prince sharing clothes.

525
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 1: Could you imagine what would be like for her to be?

526
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 1: Like if Prince is like, yeah, you can borrow my

527
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 1: purple rain suit, be like, no, there's no I could.

528
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:22,720
Speaker 1: I couldn't possibly. You do whatever Prince tells you use anyway.

529
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: One one of my favorite tour looks, though, came in

530
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: with his tour for the album Parade, where he was

531
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 1: all about the crop tops. Gosh, um, listeners, I'm a

532
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: fan of crop tops. Yes, I'm thirty one and I

533
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: wear crop tops because why not? Um, I you know,

534
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 1: since a lot of Glazer does it all the time

535
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: on Broad City, I say it's okay for me to um.

536
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:50,280
Speaker 1: But he's wearing in one of the photos on Getty

537
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,959
Speaker 1: that's been circulating a lot, this asymmetrical black crop top

538
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: with a row of white buttons and I want it

539
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: not be asymmetrical style, but just like the black with

540
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 1: the white buns. Real big fan. I mean he looks great.

541
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 1: What wasn't he also wearing like bell bottom trousers or

542
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 1: something with that. I think he was wearing just like

543
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: tight pants in the bottom. I mean all of his

544
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: pants were. We're tight in that air. He got a

545
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 1: little looser as he got older. Well, two years after

546
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 1: the Parade tour, after he released Loves Sexy and that's

547
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,399
Speaker 1: the one with a naked prince floating amid giant purple

548
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: flowers on the cover with his arm draped over his nipples. Uh,

549
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,720
Speaker 1: he was super big into sporting this black and white

550
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: polka dot blouse with an oversized collar, matching white and

551
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,240
Speaker 1: black polka dot high waisted pants and of course heels,

552
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:47,280
Speaker 1: um Caroline. They were matching polka dot heels. And this

553
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: is my favorite prince look because I love a polka

554
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: dot and it's almost like the blouse style is kind

555
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 1: of like a high necked pussybow blouse that we still

556
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: see today. I've got a couple in my closet, so

557
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, black pussy bow blows with the you know,

558
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,800
Speaker 1: white dots and those high waist pants, but the high heels,

559
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 1: black and white polka dot high heels. Hello, it was

560
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 1: just a fabulous look. Yeah, it was fabulous and so feminine,

561
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,720
Speaker 1: you know. But but on Prince it was just Prince.

562
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 1: It wasn't masculine or feminine. It was just sexy Prince

563
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 1: wearing polka dots. Yeah. Have you ever I'm trying to

564
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,240
Speaker 1: think if I've ever seen cin a fella in polka

565
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: dotted pants, and nothing is coming to mind, Nothing does

566
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: come to mind except Prince all right, and on MTV

567
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: for his performance of Get Off with the New Power Generation, This,

568
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:50,320
Speaker 1: my friends, is when he sports these spectacular yellow laser

569
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:55,280
Speaker 1: cut I'll just say bottomless suit, which, of course the top,

570
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,399
Speaker 1: the suit top, complete with shoulder pads, was a crop

571
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: top ston uh and yeah, and heels yellow, matching heels

572
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: to match the fantastic suit. Yeah. I don't think he

573
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: never wore anything but heels. Right, No, nothing, Can you

574
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: imagine Prince and flip flops? Just no, right, because the

575
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 1: Barbie Yeah yeah, just like Barbie can't walk in flip flops. Yeah, exactly.

576
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,359
Speaker 1: And if we look at the early two thousand's, he's

577
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: still wearing tailored suits, but they're so bright and vivid,

578
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 1: as opposed to that monochromatic palette that we usually associate

579
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 1: with supposedly androgynous fashion. Um. One of those looks, though,

580
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 1: came in two thousand four, where he was supporting a

581
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,320
Speaker 1: look that we would really never seen before, although you

582
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: could say that about each one of Prince's looks. Um.

583
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 1: But he was wearing his hair straight and it was

584
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 1: about shoulder length, had a long goatee, and these asymmetrical

585
00:38:55,640 --> 00:39:00,040
Speaker 1: red and white eighties sunglasses and like, if you have

586
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 1: not told the obats Prince, I would not have known. Well,

587
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 1: it was for the Essence Music Festival, and his reasoning

588
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: was that he was tired of being the center of attention.

589
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: And I'm like, you're freaking adorable. I love that. Like

590
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 1: when Prince wants to wear a disguise because he's tired

591
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: of being the center of attention, he just sticks out

592
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: that much more. He's like, let me just straighten my

593
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: hair and put on these very obvious sunglasses. Is anyone looking?

594
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: Is anyone looking? Um? Yeah? And I mean this our timeline.

595
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 1: I mean we could talk forever. I mean one of

596
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: his last iconic trends was his tunics. I mean he

597
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,879
Speaker 1: wore a white studded one to Coachella in two thousand eight.

598
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: More recently, he wore the whole gold outfit and that's

599
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: when he was sporting his third eye sonnies Um. I mean,

600
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,720
Speaker 1: the the guy is like one in one in a trillion.

601
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: I mean, there's no one like him fashion wise. But

602
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 1: because of that, because of his line blurring and his

603
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: you know, give no flips attitude, it really opened the

604
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 1: door for other people to be able to explore their

605
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 1: own identities through fashion, to explore their own tunic phases,

606
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,280
Speaker 1: which I really hope to reach one day. Just be patient.

607
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 1: I'm just saying it. I mean, because we we have

608
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 1: to mention though, when he changed his name to the

609
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 1: Love symbol, which was the mix of the Mars and

610
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: Venus male and female symbols, Um, And he did it

611
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 1: because he wanted to make Warner Brothers mad Um didn't.

612
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 1: He was like, Okay, well you want to use my

613
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 1: name and you own my stuff, well I'm going to

614
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 1: change my name to something that you can't even print. Um.

615
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 1: And he wanted to brand himself and illustrate these parts

616
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 1: of his identity which were the fusions of the masculine

617
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 1: and feminine as he saw it. Yeah, and the designer

618
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,800
Speaker 1: behind the symbol, one of the two or three designers

619
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: behind the symbol, which is of course the mix of

620
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 1: the Mars and Venus symbols. Uh told Wired that Prince

621
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: really wanted to mix the feminine and masculine energy because

622
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: he was working with all of these women that he

623
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: wanted to see boosted to fame, and so he saw

624
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: those elements of male female, masculine, feminine as being equally

625
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:31,720
Speaker 1: important and wanted to integrate them. And this designer, Mitch Monson,

626
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: said he was about approaching things differently and not discriminating.

627
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: He was making this unified statement that everybody should be accepted.

628
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: So in addition to doing things like writing slave on

629
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: his face and changing his name to a symbol to

630
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 1: irritate Warner Brothers, he was also just as part of

631
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 1: that expressing that duality that he's so famous for. And

632
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: his confidence in carrying that duality was key. I mean,

633
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 1: it didn't matter what you thought of him. Prince is

634
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: just going a Prince. And one thing that Travell Anderson

635
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: over at the l A Times talked about in his

636
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 1: remembrances of Princes how he opened the door for black

637
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 1: men to explore gender, sexuality, and fashion. He wrote, this

638
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: image of a secure and assured black man embracing both

639
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 1: the masculine and the feminine is what I remember most

640
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: of the musician, although I wasn't alive, the YouTube video

641
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 1: of the moment became a reference point for this gender

642
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 1: nonconforming man. Travilla is referring to himself who needed permission

643
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 1: to be himself, and he goes on to say that

644
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:39,439
Speaker 1: Prince taught me how to transgress gender roles and this

645
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: is something pretty revelatory for black men in particular. Yeah,

646
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 1: because Anderson writes black men in his community grapple with

647
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: those limiting gender expectations. Anderson rights, even now, black people

648
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 1: more often find themselves born into the suffocating box that

649
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: Hugh's too close lead to an identity that doesn't fully

650
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 1: encapsulate our complexities. In Nuance, Anderson calls gender a straight jacket,

651
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: but that it wasn't this way for Prince, who found

652
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 1: a way to break free. He writes that Prince was

653
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 1: a persona that was masculine and feminine and the world

654
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 1: had to deal and he also talks about what a

655
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: statement it made that Prince was so uh so sexual

656
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,840
Speaker 1: in his presentation as well, considering all of the racist

657
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:33,839
Speaker 1: stereotyping around the hyper sexualization um of black men and

658
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:39,439
Speaker 1: perceiving their sexuality blackmail sexuality as predatory. And yet here

659
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: you have Prince who is arguably one of the most

660
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: sexual pop stars of all time. Yeah, and I have

661
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: to read this quote from Frank Ocean. I know it's

662
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 1: been circulating a ton on the Internet since Prince died,

663
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: but Frank Ocean put it this way. Quote he learned

664
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 1: early on how little value you to assign to someone

665
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: else's opinion of you, an infectious sentiment that seemed soaked

666
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: into his clothes, his hair, his walk, his guitar, and

667
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:11,399
Speaker 1: his primal scream. He was a straight black man who

668
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 1: played his first televised set in bikini bottoms and knee

669
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 1: high heeled boots epic. He made me feel more comfortable

670
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: with how I identify sexually simply by his display of

671
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 1: freedom from an irreverence for obviously archaic ideas like gender

672
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 1: conformity and so then, basically, when you try to find

673
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 1: a definition for what queer fashion is, that can be

674
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:42,879
Speaker 1: really challenging to pin it down. But Prince showed us

675
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 1: what it could be, and Randy Shandrowski, who's the CEO

676
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: of label Lactic uh, said, yeah, you know, queer style

677
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,359
Speaker 1: is hard to define because it's a rejection of that

678
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:58,320
Speaker 1: dualistic thinking that would place a person into a category

679
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 1: of being this or that. It is more about the

680
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: disintegration of definitions. And so based on that definition, that

681
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: non definition definition, it really seems like Princes the epitome

682
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: of that because his whole identity was shaped in a

683
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: way that broke down all of those barriers and made

684
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: it possible for people to look at him and say,

685
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 1: you're just you, and I mean I can be just

686
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: me then well, on every single level, from his music

687
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:34,840
Speaker 1: and his relationships with recording studios, to his fashion to

688
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: his just his day to day life, he embodied a

689
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: freedom of expression constantly. And if we look at queer

690
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 1: and androgynous fashion today, um F I T director Valerie

691
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: Steele says that designers are really kind of questioning clothing binaries,

692
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 1: you know, questioning whether we really need male versus female dress,

693
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: and you're seeing more clothes on runways that are androgynous or,

694
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 1: as she says, with similar or the same looks for

695
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: men and women. But the thing is like that that

696
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: is one definition of androgyny, but that is not what

697
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 1: Prince was doing. I mean, he was creating something altogether

698
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 1: different too, So I think that also goes to show

699
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: how he's even more of a visual definition of what

700
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 1: queer fashion can be beyond our matching caftans. That's right,

701
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. And I mean, if you look at

702
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: the landscape today, it's super common to see men coming

703
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 1: down the runway in skirts, those pussy bow blouses, fur coats,

704
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: pink all of these things that are like so have

705
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,399
Speaker 1: been the domain of women and feminine people. You also,

706
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: it's super common also to see women in sharp suits

707
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 1: and minimal makeup. You've got more trans models walking in shows,

708
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 1: and I mean, I know this is just me and

709
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 1: I have like a feminist, gender focused podcast, but like,

710
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: I don't even think twice about this stuff. I don't.

711
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,479
Speaker 1: I don't think twice about a man in address, whether

712
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: it's for a women's line or a men's line or

713
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 1: trans models. It's just like, yeah, okay, it's just bodies

714
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 1: showing off clothes. But I think the real evidence of

715
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 1: a cultural shift is that we're seeing it not just

716
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 1: on the runway but also on sidewalks, because all this

717
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: too is making me think of Chinas and dramed on

718
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: is the Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt and how he absolutely plays

719
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 1: around with his fashion. The episode the season where he's

720
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 1: clearing at his closet. Oh my gosh, I love it

721
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 1: so much. Can we just do a Kimmi Schmidt episode

722
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 1: just so you and I can just watch Kimmi Schmidt

723
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 1: over and over over and I go, yeah, Well, you

724
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 1: do have more and more designers creating unisex lines amid

725
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: this climate of more and more people refusing to want

726
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 1: to identify as specifically male or female, and Johnny Johansson,

727
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 1: who's the founder of ACNE, said, I've seen this new

728
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 1: generation's attitude to fashion where the cut, the shape, and

729
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:03,879
Speaker 1: the character of the garment is more the crucial thing,

730
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: rather than seeking approval from society or to follow set norms,

731
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: which is totally prints. I mean you even have Kanye

732
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: West sporting some black velvet mid calf heeled boots in Paris.

733
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,239
Speaker 1: I mean this is he wishes he could be Prints though.

734
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean Kanye cannot come close to Prince No, no,

735
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,280
Speaker 1: offense Kim k. Yeah, for all this time she listens

736
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 1: to us secret listener. Um. But you're also seeing some stores,

737
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: to some higher end stores that are eliminating men's and

738
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 1: women's sections. Um. This is something that we talked about

739
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 1: in our Fashion and Feminism episode a while back, and

740
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:51,359
Speaker 1: in terms of women in our everyday presentations. I mean

741
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:55,879
Speaker 1: think about how you know, swimsuit season again is upon us,

742
00:48:56,000 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: and ladies are foregoing the razors, um and calling on

743
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: us to free our nipples. Yeah, but you're also seeing

744
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 1: Peacock Revolution part two or maybe part thirty. I don't

745
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:09,359
Speaker 1: know where we are at this point, but you've got

746
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: rappers like Atlanta's Young Thug, who you know, talks about

747
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:16,720
Speaker 1: shopping in the women's section for better and tighter fitting

748
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:21,799
Speaker 1: genes and appears in magazines wearing tool dresses. And you know,

749
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:25,319
Speaker 1: it's just it's nothing that's going to go away, nor

750
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 1: should it. If anything, we're gonna just keep moving towards

751
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 1: that androgynous fashion future. I highly doubt that that ever

752
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 1: means that it's going to like completely erase gender lines

753
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 1: and fashion. But it's just this whole conversation has just

754
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:47,840
Speaker 1: been evidence that Prince has always been at the cutting

755
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,439
Speaker 1: edge of that queering of fashion. Yeah, I mean, because

756
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 1: I also don't think that androgynous fashion is somehow better

757
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 1: or even say like more feminists than more gender trade

758
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 1: aditional fashion styles. It's more about that element of freedom

759
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:06,479
Speaker 1: of expression. Are we free to be able to dress

760
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 1: in a way that we feel most comfortable in? Um

761
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 1: and really quickly, Caroline talking about young young thug shopping

762
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 1: in the women's section, It reminds me too of the

763
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 1: college town that you and I attended college in, which

764
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 1: is a music town, very much. And I knew a

765
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 1: few um rocker fellas who wore women's genes for the

766
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:37,240
Speaker 1: type fit my boyfriend in college did or after college. Yeah,

767
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, because it wasn't It wasn't a super

768
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:43,479
Speaker 1: popular look yet, the whole skinny Jaine thing in terms

769
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:47,719
Speaker 1: of mainstream But Valerie Steel, the fashion historian and f

770
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:51,279
Speaker 1: I T director, also had a really notable thing to

771
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 1: say about why women in masculine clothes that whole trend

772
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 1: has been more successful over time than the more recent

773
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 1: things that we've been seeing of men in more traditionally

774
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,280
Speaker 1: feminine clothes. And she said, if men are the ones

775
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 1: who are in power, there's always going to be a

776
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: limit to people who want to look like the powerless.

777
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 1: So in a way, I mean that goes to show

778
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 1: even more how Prince's looks. We're so transgressive. Yeah, I

779
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 1: I just I love to sort of fall into daydreams

780
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: about Prince's fashion and how he adopted purple because it's

781
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 1: the color of royalty, and purple is like traditionally it's

782
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 1: just been a color that men are afraid of, almost

783
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,800
Speaker 1: that it's just not masculine. Purple is just a challenging

784
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 1: color in general. I'm trying to think of what purple

785
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 1: like full on purple clothing that I own, and only

786
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: one one blouse comes to mind. Yeah, I like a

787
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 1: nice uh, a nice jewel tone purple one that's a

788
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,320
Speaker 1: little bit on the redder side and the bluer side.

789
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:02,319
Speaker 1: I gotta say, well, I mean, now we clearly need

790
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 1: some some more purple clothing too to honor prints. Some ruffles,

791
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:11,439
Speaker 1: so many ruffles. Um. I wish that Prince's music rights

792
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 1: weren't so exclusive, so we could have a song maybe

793
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 1: Raspberry Beret or something take us out of this this episode.

794
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:23,359
Speaker 1: Now he would sue the crap out of us. Yeah, Yeah,

795
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 1: from he would sue us from the grave. Yeah no, really,

796
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 1: I bet he would. Yeah yeah, Um, So before we

797
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 1: end up getting sued by ghost Prince listeners, we want

798
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:37,760
Speaker 1: to hear from you about queer fashion, about Prince, your

799
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 1: your favorite Prince looks or songs, anything that this podcast

800
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:43,839
Speaker 1: brought to mind, and you want to share with us.

801
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our

802
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 1: email address. You can also tweet us at mom stuff podcasts,

803
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 1: or messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of

804
00:52:52,520 --> 00:53:00,479
Speaker 1: messages to share with you right now, So we gotta

805
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 1: let her here. From Heather in response to our episode

806
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 1: on tanning politics, and she writes, listening to your discussion

807
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 1: on farmers stands and your great spray tan politics episode,

808
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 1: I was inspired to write I agree with everything you

809
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:18,720
Speaker 1: said about the different types of tans being markers of class. However,

810
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 1: you might be interested to know that there's been a

811
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 1: recent reclaiming of farmers tands. I'm an organic farmer on

812
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 1: Vancouver Island in Canada, lots of times listening to podcast

813
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 1: while weeding and harvesting. She says, I was miss November

814
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 1: in what was I think the original farmers tans calendar.

815
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 1: It was a fundraiser for the Rainbow Charred Collective, a

816
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:44,439
Speaker 1: group of farmers lgbt Q and allies in particular, who

817
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:47,760
Speaker 1: used the funds to put on workshops for new farmers. Anyway,

818
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 1: a quick Google search shows me that there have been

819
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:53,399
Speaker 1: quite a few other farmer Tans calendars put out by

820
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 1: other groups since then. Nowadays, most people see me as

821
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 1: the middle of the road middle aged farmer, business owner

822
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 1: and soccer mom. But farmers tans is another side of me.

823
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:06,920
Speaker 1: An activists, environmentalists and part of a community of amazing

824
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 1: people of our all ages, genders, and sexualities who love

825
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 1: working hard and getting stuff done. We take pride in

826
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:19,439
Speaker 1: our not sprayed on, not full bodied tans, So thank

827
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 1: you so much. Heather and I had no idea that

828
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:25,320
Speaker 1: there are farmer tans calendars, and I look forward to

829
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 1: Google imaging that asap. I have a letter here from

830
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 1: Sonna in response to our Colorism episode. She says, I'm Sana, sixteen,

831
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 1: Indian and living in Canada. I really appreciated your recent

832
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,879
Speaker 1: episode on colorism because it's a very real thing. I'm

833
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:43,439
Speaker 1: fairly light skin so people are usually surprised to find

834
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 1: out that I'm Indian. Some boys have said you don't

835
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:48,400
Speaker 1: look Indian to me and meant it as a compliment.

836
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,359
Speaker 1: It's really disheartening because it sends the message the only

837
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:53,839
Speaker 1: way to be an acceptable brown girl is if you're

838
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:56,959
Speaker 1: not really brown at all. On another note, my mom

839
00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 1: has really light skin as well, and recently one of

840
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 1: her younger friends got pregnant. This woman asked my mom

841
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 1: whether she did something special or ate anything specific well pregnant,

842
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 1: which made my skin much lighter because she was praying

843
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:12,800
Speaker 1: that her daughter's skin color would be like mine. This

844
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:14,759
Speaker 1: sort of broke my heart because I know that this

845
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:17,359
Speaker 1: woman will love her daughter regardless. The fact that skin

846
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 1: color can affect a person's life even before they are

847
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 1: born is heartbreaking. Anyway, it's a good job with the

848
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 1: podcast and I look forward to hearing more of these

849
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 1: interesting topics. Well, thank you, Sona, and thanks to everybody

850
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 1: who's written into us. Mom Stuff at house stuff works

851
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 1: dot com is our email address and thrilling to all

852
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 1: of our social media as well as all of our blogs,

853
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,839
Speaker 1: videos and podcast with our sources. So you can learn

854
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 1: more about Prince. So you can learn more about queer

855
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 1: fashion and Prince, head on over to stuff Mom Never

856
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 1: told you. Dot com for more on this and thousands

857
00:55:56,640 --> 00:56:06,720
Speaker 1: of other topics. Is it how stuff works? Dot com

858
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 1: S