1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:08,719 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 2: The global fertility market is worth an estimated forty six 3 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 2: billion dollars and is expected to more than triple in 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 2: the next decade. In the US, a company called kind 5 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 2: Body was once one of the fastest growing players in 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 2: the field IVF disrupted. The kind Body Story examines the 7 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 2: consequences of that rapid growth and what happens when startup 8 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 2: culture collides with the delicate science of creating life. Today 9 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 2: on the show, We're Bringing You Episode four. If you 10 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 2: missed episodes one through three, go back and listen. They 11 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,200 Speaker 2: dropped in the Big Take Feed last week. And one 12 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 2: more note. The series features conversations about pregnancy complications and loss. 13 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 2: Please take care while listening. 14 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: The day Elizabeth decided to start trying for a baby, 15 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: she was thirty eight years old. She and her husband 16 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: had been happy as they were traveling, building their careers 17 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: in Chicago, enjoying their freedom. But something was shifting. Her 18 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: mom was sick, the years were passing. There was the 19 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 1: sense that maybe they'd regret not trying. 20 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 3: It just kind of felt like, you know, that opportunity 21 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 3: to have kids, the window could be closing. I had 22 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 3: kind of naively really thought that it was going to 23 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 3: work quickly for us, and then it didn't. And after 24 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 3: trying for months, we were talking to our obi and 25 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 3: then she was saying, you know, at your age, you 26 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 3: don't have to try it. 27 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: I've spoken with dozens of women like Elizabeth during my 28 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: investigation of kind Body, and there's this moment that comes 29 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: up again and again, this pivot point where they decide 30 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: to seek help with fertility. It's vulnerable, intimate, and it 31 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: often comes with the clock ticking somewhere in the background. 32 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: Elizabeth and her husband had tried naturally for seven months 33 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: before her doctor recommend and did she look into fertility treatment. 34 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: So Elizabeth started looking into specialists covered by her insurance. 35 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: Kind Body was one of her options. 36 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 3: I saw it and was like women doctors and the 37 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 3: way they made it seem like it was just so 38 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 3: easy to do and seamless. Right away, I just was like, oh, yeah, 39 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:19,799 Speaker 3: this is the easiest choice I've had to make. 40 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: She and her husband got an appointment right away at 41 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: a kind Body clinic in Chicago. 42 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 3: I had heard from friends that it can take a 43 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 3: long time to get into clinics sometimes, and so I 44 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 3: was excited and pleasantly surprised that we were able to 45 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 3: get in right away. I see it as a red 46 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 3: flag now, However, at the time I was very excited 47 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 3: to be able to just jump right in. 48 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: Elizabeth had several friends who had gone through fertility treatments before, 49 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: so she knew a little bit about her options. Because 50 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 1: IVF is expensive and invasive, Elizabeth wanted to start. 51 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 3: Slow, and so I was interested to hear about other 52 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 3: things like AYUI are using clomate and different things like that. 53 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: IUI stands for intrauterine insemination. It's when sperm is injected 54 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,959 Speaker 1: directly into the uterus. Clomid is a medication that stimulates ovulation. 55 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: Unlike IVF, these treatments don't require an egg retrieval and 56 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: so patients don't need as much medication. In IVF, patients 57 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: often take multiple medications to stimulate the ovaries to produce eggs, 58 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: and there's also painkillers required for an embryo transfer. Doing IUI, 59 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: we're taking clomid can be a much cheaper option. Elizabeth 60 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: liked the doctor she met with that kind body. She 61 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: felt she was knowledgeable and personable, but something didn't feel 62 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: right about the way the doctor laid out the treatment options. 63 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 3: They didn't mention anything about clomate or other drugs like that. 64 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 3: They had like a slide maybe briefly talked about an IUI, 65 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 3: but then really just the whole most of the hour 66 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 3: long kind of presentation was about IVF, So we just said, yeah, 67 00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 3: you know, we're just a little nervous about doing IVF 68 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 3: to hear about the other steps. I can't remember her 69 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 3: exact verbiage, but something along the lines of, you know, 70 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 3: given my age and the fact that we've been trying 71 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 3: now for a while, she kind of presumed that I'd 72 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 3: want to jump right in and do IVF. My initial 73 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 3: reaction was that it seemed like they were pushing IVF. 74 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 1: IVF is the most expensive procedure that kind Body offers, 75 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 1: and the number of patients who go through IVF has 76 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 1: a huge impact on kind Body's bottom line. What Elizabeth 77 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: didn't know at the time was that kind Body was 78 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 1: quickly running out of money. Behind closed doors, executives were 79 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: freaking out and facing tough questions from investors, including private 80 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 1: equity backers. I heard from people in these meetings that 81 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: investors were worried that the company wasn't hitting its targets 82 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: and would need more money. In an effort to boost profits, 83 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: kind Body came up with the plan, one that pushed 84 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: patients into more aggressive treatments, treatments that left some women 85 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 1: asking was this really necessary? From Bloomberg and iHeart podcasts, 86 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: this is IVF disrupted the kind Body story. I'm Jackie Devalos, 87 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: So how did we get here to a point where 88 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: kind Body, which had been a femtech darling for venture 89 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: capital and private equity investors, was now scrambling for money. 90 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 1: I want to take you to an important meeting in 91 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: the summer of twenty twenty three, when kind Body directors 92 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: gathered for their quarterly meeting at a luxury hotel in 93 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: the Hampdens. I saw them minutes and talked to people 94 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: who were there, and they said there was a feeling 95 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: of desperation at this meeting. The company had been talking 96 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: to investment bankers to explore an initial public offering IPO, 97 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: a move that could potentially transform the founder's equity stakes 98 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: into enormous wealth. But first they needed better numbers, more revenue, 99 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: less spending, or maybe both, and at that moment the 100 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: situation didn't look good. Kind Body had merged with Bio's 101 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 1: Fertility Institute over a year earlier, doubling their clinic count overnight. 102 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: They had a new CFO, had raised millions of dollars 103 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: from big investors, including JP Morgan, and despite multiple rounds 104 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 1: of layoffs, they were still burning through cash. Internal documents 105 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 1: I saw painted a rough picture. The company had spent 106 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: nearly sixty million dollars in twenty twenty three through September 107 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 1: and was losing an average of roughly seven million dollars 108 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 1: each month. According to the documents, of the startup's thirty 109 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: three clinics, only six were profitable. So kind Body executives 110 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: laid out their plan to try to improve the company's finances. 111 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: It would set specific quotas for their physicians in an 112 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 1: effort to hit revenue targets. One of the metrics that 113 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: kind Body tracked was the number of retrievals they performed. 114 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: It's a key step in IVF. Retrievals are when doctors 115 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: attempt to extract eggs from the ovaries. The procedure involves 116 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: blood tests, ultrasounds, and hormone injections, and it's one of 117 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: the most lucrative procedures. Kind Body offers retrievals make up 118 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: about half of the revenue collected from one round of IVF. 119 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: In a presentation outlining its turnaround plan to investors, kind 120 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: Body ranked all of its doctors only by the average 121 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: number of monthly egg retrievals they were performing. Those who 122 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: fell beneath the benchmark average of twenty three were labeled 123 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: as falling below expectations. If it was going to turn 124 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: a profit and go public, the doctors at kind Body 125 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: would need to raise the number of monthly egg retrievals 126 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: they performed. Some doctors would have to double their retrieval. 127 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: I was told many physicians didn't feel comfortable with the 128 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: new targets, and over the next three months, four doctors resigned. 129 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: Angie Beltzos, who was kind Body's chief physician when it 130 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,119 Speaker 1: introduced the quotas, didn't respond to a request for commet 131 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: for the series. This push to do more IVF cycles 132 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: was invisible to Elizabeth when she had her first consultation 133 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: at kind body Chicago clinic, but for the people treating her, 134 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: the pressure was on to start. Elizabeth and her husband 135 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: tried clomid and then an IUI, and when those treatments 136 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: didn't work, they decided to finally try IVF in Chicago. 137 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: Kind Body's prices started at fourteen thousand, five hundred dollars 138 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: per cycle, and that prize doesn't include genetic testing or 139 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: embryo transfers. Although she had some insurance coverage, Elizabeth was 140 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: still on the hook for about six thousand dollars in 141 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: out of pocket costs when she finally decided to pull 142 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: the trigger. Elizabeth says she had trouble getting a hold 143 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:04,719 Speaker 1: of the people who were supposed to guide her through 144 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: the process. During IVF. Timing is everything missing. Even a 145 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: single dose of medication can derail an entire cycle, wasting 146 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 1: thousands of dollars and pushing treatment back by months. 147 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 3: It's all very very strict in that regard, at least 148 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 3: that's how they described it to me. 149 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: Once Elizabeth's insurance authorized her IVF medications, she called kind 150 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: Body to make sure the clinic had put in the 151 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 1: order to the pharmacy. Knowing Memorial Day was approaching, Elizabeth 152 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: tried calling a few days before to avoid delays. No answer. 153 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: On the Friday before the holiday weekend, she started to panic. 154 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: She called their national helpline. No one could help. Her husband, 155 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: desperate left work early to drive to the clinic and 156 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: bang on the door. 157 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 3: So the fact that I wasn't getting these answers or responses, 158 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 3: I mean, my anxiety levels were through the roof. It 159 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 3: felt like the strain, gaslighting or something or I was 160 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 3: just like confused. 161 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: But behind the scenes at kind Body, there was a 162 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: financial reason Elizabeth might not have been able to connect 163 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,719 Speaker 1: with her providers by phone. Documents I saw laid out 164 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: kind Body's policy to quote bill all visits to do this. 165 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: Employees I talked to said they were instructed to encourage 166 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: patients to come into the clinic in person or hold 167 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: virtual video visits. The goal was to bring down the 168 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: number of phone calls that they couldn't bill. In theory, 169 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: this policy makes sense. Many patients told me they liked 170 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: seeing their doctors in person, but in practice, they said 171 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: it made the IVF process more stressful. It was really 172 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: difficult to get an appointment with doctors after an initial consultation, 173 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: and because of kind Body staffing problems, they would be 174 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: seen by an ever changing set of nurses or patient coordinators. Instead, 175 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 1: one on one time time with the doctor was rare 176 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: for Elizabeth. The costs continued to pile up on top 177 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: of the six thousand dollars she was spending for the procedure. 178 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: Elizabeth says kind Body was trying to sell her add 179 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: on services. There was genetic testing, which cost over four 180 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 1: thousand dollars per embryo, and other treatments that she'd never 181 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 1: heard of. 182 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 3: My good friend who went, you know, through another clinic. 183 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 3: She kept kind of mentioning like because I was like, 184 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 3: so did you pay for the extra however, couple hundred 185 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 3: bucks for embryo glue. She was like, embryo glue, Like 186 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 3: I never heard of embryo glue, And I was like, oh, 187 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 3: like we just paid for under bucks this round, you know, 188 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 3: for embryo glue and all of these like add ons 189 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 3: that was like thousands of dollars per retrieval these add ons. 190 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: The idea of embryo glue is to help an embryo 191 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: implant on the wall of the uterus. A doctor at 192 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: kind Body told Elizabeth that she should also consider a 193 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 1: medication that would encourage the embryo to implant. 194 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 3: So was this We had to go in a few 195 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 3: days before the transfer date and do this like nupigin wash, 196 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 3: which was a couple hundred bucks or seven hundred bucks 197 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,199 Speaker 3: out of pocket. And again I'm just telling my friend 198 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 3: and she is just like shaking her head, like I 199 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 3: don't like, what is this? 200 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: Experts I spoke to see. The science behind embryo glue 201 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: and nupagin wash is shaky at best. It's not definitively 202 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: proven to improve chances of getting pregnant. But in that moment, 203 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: Elizabeth went through with it despite her doubts. 204 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 3: But again didn't want to question the doctor. If she 205 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 3: said this is going to improve our chances, then you know, 206 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:43,439 Speaker 3: let's go for it. We've got the one embryo. Let's 207 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 3: like do whatever it takes. It just it's like a 208 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 3: situation where you're going in making these calls for this 209 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 3: round of IVF and you're already you know how invasive 210 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 3: it's going to be, and you know how hard it's 211 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 3: going to be on your body, and you know how 212 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 3: much money insurance is paying for it, and that you're 213 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 3: then going to be paying for it. So you're not 214 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 3: going to cut corners. If your doctor says I recommend this, 215 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 3: it's going to increase your chances by five percent or 216 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 3: whatever it may be, Like, that's not the time to 217 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 3: be like, no, I'm going to save this four hundred 218 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 3: bucks or whatever is so you just you know, you 219 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 3: have to trust the person of authority there. You have 220 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 3: to trust the doctors making those recommendations. 221 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: By the fall of twenty twenty four, two IVF cycles 222 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: had left Elizabeth emotionally and financially drained. In total, she 223 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 1: spent more than twelve thousand dollars on the IVF treatment 224 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: and add ons. Her disappointment and frustration were compounded by 225 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 1: the fact, she said she was also getting bills in 226 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: the mail for things kind body had assured her recovered 227 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: by insurance. I spoke to nearly fifty patients, and nearly 228 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: all of them had what they called surprise costs during 229 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: the treatment and after. Eventually, Elizabeth and her husband ended 230 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: up moving to another fertility practice after switching their insurance. 231 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 3: It's literally night and day the difference. 232 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: Elizabeth said, her new doctor doesn't try to upsell her. Instead, 233 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: she told her she could skip genetic testing of her 234 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: embryos altogether. 235 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 3: I was like, I remember my jaw was dropped because 236 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,959 Speaker 3: I was so I don't know, indoctrinated into it, being 237 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 3: like you are over thirty six, you wild genetic test. 238 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 3: But genetic testing is a huge out of pocket cost. 239 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 3: It took me a while to wrap my head around 240 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 3: because again I just thought there was no way if 241 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 3: not through genetic testing. But the way she described it 242 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 3: to us was that that is not something we like 243 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 3: need doing. 244 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: She says it makes her look back on her time 245 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: at kind Body differently. Even though she genuinely liked the 246 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: doctor she had there, she has doubts. 247 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 3: At kind Body, and my heart of hearts, I do 248 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 3: not want to think that the doctor that we worked 249 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 3: with for months there is just trying to get us 250 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 3: to do more IVF rounds. Just don't want to think that. 251 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 3: But when you just could all the pieces and how 252 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 3: they're all kind of adding up, it's just really hard 253 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 3: not to come to that conclusion in my mind. 254 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. I spoke with dozens of current 255 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: and former employees who worked at kind Body around the 256 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: time Elizabeth was having her treatment, and they told me 257 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: there was this intense pressure to sell services that made 258 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: many clinical staff, including doctors, deeply uncomfortable. 259 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 4: At your white coat ceremony, which is the first thing 260 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 4: you participate in before you start mid school, you take 261 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 4: that oath, and that oath is first, do no harm. 262 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: This is Lauren again. She's a former Kind Body medical 263 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: staffer who asked not to be identified, so we've given 264 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: her a pseudonym and are having a voice actor. Read 265 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: what she told me. Lauren said that from the beginning 266 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: at Kind Body, doctors had metrics that were closely tracked 267 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: to measure their performance. One of these metrics was the 268 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: number of cycles they so that could. 269 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 4: Be an egg free cycle or embryo creation, and then 270 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 4: the actual transfer of the embryo to hopefully create the pregnancy. 271 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: There were also other procedures that counted toward a doctor's metrics. 272 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: Some of these were part of the IVF process, but 273 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: not always. For example, mock cycles. A mock cycle is 274 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: like a trial run. It simulates an embryo transfer. The 275 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: goal is to see how the body reacts and allow 276 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: the doctor to work out the kinks before the actual procedure. 277 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: Doctors tell me they can be helpful for patients who 278 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: have had trouble getting embryos to implant, but they aren't 279 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: necessary for everyone. Lauren told me that Kind Body doctors 280 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: often recommended mock cycles, which can add hundreds of dollars 281 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: to the bill. 282 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 4: Well, there was one in particular, that would have patients 283 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 4: do mock cycles or multiple mock cycles, or different types 284 00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 4: of procedures, because essentially that would increase her number in 285 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 4: regards to her cycles, which then essentially increased her revenue. 286 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 1: Lauren told me that another closely watched metric was a 287 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: doctor's conversion rate. This measured how often a patient who 288 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 1: came in looking to learn about fertility services was then 289 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 1: turned into a pain customer. And to Lauren, measuring that 290 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: rate sometimes created the wrong kind of incentive. 291 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 4: So you know, if I had in a month, say 292 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 4: twenty patients who are twenty two years old, and they're 293 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,479 Speaker 4: coming to me freaking out, saying, oh my god, do 294 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 4: I have to do egg freezing this month because otherwise 295 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 4: I'm never gonna have kids. And I do my job, 296 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 4: and I go through the information and tell them and 297 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,959 Speaker 4: educate them about biology and about what this means and 298 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 4: about their own statistics at that age and so on 299 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 4: and so forth, and then they decide to not do 300 00:17:53,760 --> 00:18:00,040 Speaker 4: egg freezing. That's account against me. Whereas some providers I 301 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 4: would use scared tactics to essentially make these patients want 302 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 4: to go through cycles and get revenue. I was never 303 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 4: ever going to do that. I'm not a salesperson when 304 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 4: it comes to medical care. 305 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 1: Doctors were incentivized to do more cycles. Former employees told me. 306 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: Kind Body gave year end bonuses to doctors with high 307 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: rates of converting consultation into IVF. Former executives, doctors, and 308 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: other employees stressed that steering patients toward more lucrative services 309 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: was a direct result of Kind Body's funding structure. To them, 310 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: the decisions made to appease private equity and ventor capital 311 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: backers had an effect on clinical care. This isn't just 312 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 1: kind Body, though, experts told me. It happens to some 313 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: degree among a lot of fertility clinics that are backed 314 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: by big outside investors like private equity. The advantage of 315 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: private equity investment is at lets IVF clinics expand their 316 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 1: footprints and treat more people, which increases access. What's the 317 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: effect of private equity on IVF. Well, there's a twenty 318 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: eighteen study done by Alex Borsa, a researcher from Columbia University. 319 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: His study found that IVF clinics with any sort of 320 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: big institutional investor like private equity do more IVF procedures 321 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: than others. He looked at all the clinics in the US, 322 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: just fifteen percent had a private equity affiliation. It's a 323 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: relatively small slice, but those clinics did almost a third 324 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 1: of all IVF cycles in the country. Like a lot 325 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: of parts of medicine, private equity has entered the fertility 326 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 1: field in a big way in the last ten years. 327 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 1: One reason they've been particularly drawn to the space is 328 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: because it's less regulated than any other fields. I spoke 329 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: about the way this investment has impacted the industry with 330 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: Travis McCoy, a doctor at Piedmont Reproductive Endochronology Group, which 331 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: operates six clinics in South Carolina and neighboring states. 332 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 5: I came out of fellowship and training in twenty ten. 333 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 5: There may have been some private equity groups, but none 334 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 5: that I had ever heard of, And so your choices 335 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 5: were really to take an academic role at a university 336 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 5: or go into private practice. 337 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: These days, doctor McCoy says he frequently gets offers from 338 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: private equity firms eager to acquire the practice. 339 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 5: I bet we at least get one at least once 340 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 5: every two weeks, and sometimes it's companies you've heard from 341 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 5: mostly it's companies you haven't. 342 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 6: There's big dollars that are dangled, and. 343 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: That's doctor Edward Tarnawa. He also works at Piedmont Reproductive 344 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: with doctor McCoy. Both doctors said they've resisted selling to 345 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: private equity because they're afraid of what strings become attached. 346 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: Doctor McCoy said that by staying independent, Piedmont can control 347 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 1: how it's staff's clinics in a way that wouldn't be 348 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: possible if a private equity firm was scrutinizing expenses. 349 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 5: Is payroll a huge expense for our practice? Absolutely? Payroll's 350 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:19,880 Speaker 5: the biggest expense, and so could we make it tighter 351 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 5: and more profitable. Yes, So you would start consolidating jobs, 352 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 5: which means you start to increase the workload on each 353 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 5: of our staff members. Well, everybody knows it doesn't take 354 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 5: a genius to know that leads to burnout. The patients 355 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 5: see when I don't have as many nurses and people 356 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 5: answering the phone and taking care of their portal messages. 357 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 5: They see that and they get frustrated with that. The 358 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 5: embryology labs, those are a little higher paid staff, and 359 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 5: so hey, if I can pare them down, then you know, 360 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 5: I'm cutting profits, I'm cutting out salaries. But then you 361 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 5: start to get into the safety issues. I would rather 362 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 5: have a payroll that's a little fat and plumped up 363 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 5: and you know, a little tougher to me. But we 364 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 5: know we're doing the right things for our patients by 365 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:07,959 Speaker 5: doing that. 366 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: Doctor Tarnaas said that inviting private equity into a practice 367 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: has profound implications for patient care. 368 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 6: If there's somebody sitting behind a desk that you've never met, 369 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 6: that's looking at, you know, a spreadsheet and wondering why 370 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 6: the revenue dips, they're going to ask for other ways 371 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 6: to get that revenue. Hey, speed this person up to 372 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 6: treatment that they might not be quite ready for. Push IVF. 373 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 6: I never want to push IVF. I mean our field 374 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 6: is about options, and that is a that is a 375 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 6: two way discussion between us and the patients in terms 376 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 6: of pros and cons and experience and how they value efficiency, 377 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 6: What have they done before, what is their tolerance for disappointment? 378 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 6: Cost insurance? Those things all matter. And that's a complex 379 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 6: equation and it's not IVF for all, which I know 380 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 6: some sinners would would like it to be. There's some 381 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 6: fertility centers out there that offer nothing but ideaf and 382 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,919 Speaker 6: that's mind boggling to me because there's there's other options, 383 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 6: and that's just trimming it down to a service that 384 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 6: they're trying to sell. And I don't like that. 385 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,120 Speaker 5: And I think most of us recognize that our patients 386 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 5: are at an extremely fragile place and we know that 387 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 5: they will do anything. They are very vulnerable, and unfortunately 388 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 5: that makes them that vulnerable population to that could be exploited. 389 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: It wasn't just their clinic. I called over a dozen 390 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: veteran fertility doctors around the country, from big corporate chains 391 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: to mom and pop size clinics to ones that belonged 392 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: to academic institutions. Many had various performance targets, but nothing 393 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: quite like the retrieval quotas doctors at Kindbody told me about. 394 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,360 Speaker 1: There's one thing that makes kind Bodies stand apart from 395 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: all these other fertility businesses with private equity investment. When 396 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: private equity got involved with these other practices is their 397 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: clinics were already built. Here's doctor McCoy. 398 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 5: Because the ultimate goal for a private equity group is 399 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 5: to buy your practice, make sure it's profitable, make it 400 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 5: pretty for a certain number of years, so I can 401 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 5: sell it to somebody else at a higher rate. 402 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 1: But when Gina Barchesy was wooing investors, there was nothing built, 403 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: just a vision. A few other fertility companies have tried 404 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 1: building from the ground up like this, but kind Body 405 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:37,880 Speaker 1: was the fastest growing by far. Building fertility clinics is complicated, 406 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: but the company's plan was to roll them out like 407 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: they were a chain of coffee shops. 408 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 4: When they started this company, you know, one of the 409 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,360 Speaker 4: things they said was they wanted to be the Starbucks 410 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 4: of fertility. 411 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: This is Lauren again. 412 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 4: They wanted a clinic on every corner. Medical care is 413 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 4: not like that. Physicians are finite. 414 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: In other words, a specialized medical practice isn't scalable, or 415 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: at least not in the same way that a retail 416 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: chain might be. But the pressure on kind Body intensified 417 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 1: with each funding round. Lauren remembers a sobering moment in 418 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, after kind Body raised one hundred million dollars. 419 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 4: There was just this huge in the company, kind of like, 420 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 4: oh my gosh, we have one hundred million, so amazing, 421 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 4: We're doing so great. I mean, it was in every meeting, 422 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 4: it was in everything, And then the CFO at the time. 423 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 4: He was very honest and he basically yeah. Right at 424 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,199 Speaker 4: the meeting to the everyone basically said that you know, 425 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,679 Speaker 4: I know this sounds like a lot of money, but 426 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 4: this is not we're rolling in the money. He literally said, like, 427 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 4: this is a debt we have to pay back, so 428 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 4: we have to be judicious about what we're doing. 429 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,439 Speaker 1: After the break, the pressure to sell a kind Body 430 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: wasn't just limited to IVF. 431 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 7: So I was like, I just went through two weeks 432 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 7: of medications and traveled here and spent thousands of dollars 433 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 7: for this procedure, and you're telling me I didn't need 434 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 7: to do it. 435 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:23,120 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. Before Lacey Michelson came to Kind 436 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: Body in twenty twenty three, her attempts at becoming a 437 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 1: mother had already been really traumatic. Nearly every step of 438 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 1: IVF had been a struggle for Lacey. She has endometriosis, 439 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: which causes painful inflammation and can make conception difficult. She 440 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 1: was also extremely sensitive to fertility medications and had severe reactions, 441 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: debilitating headaches, stomach cramps, and sweats, and one complication from 442 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 1: an early pregnancy caused her fallopian tube to rupture. She 443 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: almost died. 444 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 7: You know, I had friends and family members, people really 445 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 7: close to me ask me like, why. 446 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 8: What can you just stop? Please stop? 447 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 7: And my desire for this ended the relationship I had 448 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 7: with what I would you know, describe as the love 449 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 7: of my life because I just this was so important 450 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 7: to me. 451 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 8: I couldn't put anything else before it. 452 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: But even after nearly dying, Lacey wasn't ready to give up. 453 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 7: It's just, for as long as I can remember, since 454 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 7: I was a little girl, it's all I ever wanted. 455 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:30,919 Speaker 8: I never cared about getting married. 456 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 7: I never gave a bit about that. All I ever 457 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 7: wanted was to be a mom. It just kind of 458 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:38,919 Speaker 7: took on a life of its own at at some 459 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 7: point it was just something that I just had to 460 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 7: keep fighting for. 461 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: When I met Lacey in twenty twenty four, she was 462 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: in her early forties and had been trying for a 463 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: baby for nearly four years. Unlike many women with husbands 464 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: are a partner by their side, Lacey was going at 465 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: it alone. She'd gone to clinics in LA and Texas 466 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 1: and spent tens of thousands of dollars. She briefly went 467 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 1: to a kind Body clinic in Austin, which she really liked, 468 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: but when she moved to Virginia, she had trouble finding 469 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: a clinic she trusted. 470 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 7: I think there's three or four that I tried, and 471 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 7: I just wasn't getting proper care, wasn't getting return phone calls. 472 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,680 Speaker 1: In the spring of twenty twenty three, Lacey found Kind 473 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: Bodies DC clinic. 474 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 7: I did a consult with one of the doctors there, 475 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 7: who I loved. She was just so great, so personal, 476 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 7: so like compassionate, and I was really comfortable with her. 477 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:36,959 Speaker 8: When I met her in person. 478 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 7: She just gave me a giant hockey, you know, and 479 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 7: she acknowledged so many times, like everything that I had 480 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 7: been through. So I felt relieved to be working with 481 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 7: somebody that understood my journey and was really rooting for me. 482 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 8: You know. 483 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 7: I thought that everything, all the other crap that I 484 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 7: had been through was behind me, and that I was 485 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 7: on the right path now and working with the right 486 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 7: doctor and the right clinic. 487 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: Lacey had six eggs shipped from her previous clinic in 488 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: LA to Kind Body, and those resulted in two viable embryos. 489 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: That summer, she had one transferred, but it didn't result 490 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: in a pregnancy. 491 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 8: I was down to one embryo left. At this point. 492 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 7: It was clear that I was not a really good 493 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 7: candidate for IVF because of my reactions to the medication. 494 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 7: I had kind of been thinking like this next frozen 495 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 7: embryo transfer that I do was essentially my last shot 496 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 7: at biological motherhood. At this point, I wanted to do 497 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 7: an unmedicated transfer. My body is exhausted, and I've just 498 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 7: had so many horrendous side effects from all these hormones. 499 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 7: I was just going to do a natural frozen embryo transfer, 500 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 7: or as natural as they'll do it. 501 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: Basically, there was one more hurdle Lacey needed to clear. 502 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 8: First. 503 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: Lacey's doctor said, just did she do what's called an 504 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: endometrial receptivity analysis. 505 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 7: An ER test basically takes a biopsy from your uterus 506 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 7: to see if there's any active infection. 507 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: The test is supposed to show if the uterus is 508 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: in good shape to have an embryo im plantation. Experts 509 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: told me the test isn't that common. It also requires 510 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: a lot of preparation. She'd need to take two weeks 511 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: of medications. It wasn't ideal, but Lacey wanted to have 512 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: the best chance for her last embryo to stick. A 513 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: couple of days before she went in for the procedure, 514 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: kid Body called to collect payment about fifteen hundred dollars. 515 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 7: Leading up to the procedure, I is getting a lot 516 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 7: of like different communications from the clinic. 517 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: Some nurses were calling her ER test a mock transfer, 518 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: which is a totally different procedure. In a mock transfer, 519 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: the doctor is just looking to see if everything looks good. 520 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: Unlike an EER test, no tissue biopsy is done. 521 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 8: I thought maybe they're essentially the same thing. 522 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 4: You know. 523 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 7: I got pre op instructions from the my nursing team, and. 524 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 8: They were very specific. 525 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 7: They should show up with a full bladder, drink thirty 526 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 7: two ounces of water, don't empty your bladder. 527 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: Lacey wanted this to go well. She'd call the clinic 528 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: to double check instructions. Sometimes at answer and give conflicting information, 529 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: but most of the time no one replied. Lacy didn't 530 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: think too much of it at the time and stuck 531 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: with what she had been instructed to do. At the outset. 532 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: They're professionals, she thought, you know what they're doing. 533 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 7: So the morning I went in for my transfer, one 534 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 7: of the first things they asked me to do was 535 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 7: give you your own sample and empty my bladder. 536 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 8: So I was obviously really confused by this. 537 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 7: I was like, okay, but I'm here for an ear 538 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 7: I test and I have to have a full bladder. 539 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 7: And the nurse was like, no, your bladder has to 540 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 7: be empty, and I was like, are you sure? 541 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 8: Can you check with my doctor with my nursing team. 542 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: Lacey was sitting on the exam table in her gown 543 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: waiting for an answer when someone came in to collect payment. 544 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 7: And I was like, I already paid, and she said, well, 545 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 7: how much did you pay? 546 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 8: And shouldn't you have this information? And I had to like. 547 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 7: Pull it up on my phone and I told her 548 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 7: how much I paid and she was like, oh, okay, 549 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 7: and she seemed really confused, and she like left the 550 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 7: room and then came back and was like, okay, so 551 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 7: you might get like another bill from the lab because 552 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 7: the lab bills separately. 553 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 8: And I'm like, okay, fine. 554 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 7: She's like I think it'll be like seven hundred dollars 555 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 7: or something, and I'm like, okay, you guys probably could 556 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 7: have told me that before, but okay, yeah, I'll pay it. 557 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: A nurse came back with an update Lacey would need 558 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 1: an empty bladder. After all, she did as she was instructed. 559 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: When the exam finally started, it was clear something was wrong. 560 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 7: I had drinks so much of water at this point 561 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 7: that I still had a full block when I went 562 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 7: in for the procedure, which ended up being a problem. 563 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 7: She was not able to access the part of my 564 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 7: uterus she needed to biopsy because my bladder was in 565 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 7: the way. And this procedure is generally, as it was 566 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 7: explained to me, it's supposed to be uncomfortable. It's not 567 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 7: pleasant by any means, but it's very quick five or 568 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 7: fifteen minutes. I was in there for over an hour. 569 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 7: I was crying in agonizing pain. I think it was 570 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 7: four people and they're helping to do this very simple biopsy. 571 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 7: The ultrasoundtech was like holding me. It was awful because 572 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 7: she just couldn't get this biopsy that she needed. So 573 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,479 Speaker 7: it was really pretty traumatic. And in the end I 574 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 7: was like, okay, you need to stop, like, hopefully you 575 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 7: have the biopsy you need, but I can't, Like this 576 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 7: needs to end now. 577 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: When it was finally over, Lacey got dressed. Then her 578 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: doctor casually said something that stunned her, and. 579 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 7: At some point point she mentions to me that if 580 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 7: I'm doing an unmedicated for as an embryo transfer, the 581 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,359 Speaker 7: results of an ER test are irrelevant. So I was like, 582 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 7: you mean I didn't need to just do what I 583 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 7: just did. I just went through two weeks of medications 584 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 7: and traveled here and spent thousands of dollars for this procedure, 585 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 7: and you're telling me I didn't need to do it. 586 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: Lacy's doctor explained that the test wasn't necessary, but that 587 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: useful information could still be gleaned from the biopsy. It 588 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 1: wasn't all for nothing, the doctor said, in an effort 589 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: to calm her down. 590 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,479 Speaker 7: I didn't really push the matter beyond that at that point. 591 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 7: I just wanted to get the hell out of there. 592 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 7: It wasn't until I was driving home with my friend 593 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 7: who had come with me for the procedure, that I 594 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 7: was telling her what the doctor said, and she was like, wait, 595 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 7: what all this happened when you left the waiting room, 596 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 7: And as I was talking. 597 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 8: It through with her, I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, 598 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 8: that just happened. 599 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,879 Speaker 7: It's just like kind of flabbergasted by the entire thing. 600 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 7: By the time I got home. I was extremely upset 601 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 7: that night. 602 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,400 Speaker 1: She sent a long email to Kind Body. 603 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 7: I heard back from them within a day or two 604 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,879 Speaker 7: and they apologized. And the woman that I spoke with, 605 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 7: she was nice and she understood my position, and she 606 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 7: said that she was going to see about refunding me 607 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 7: the cost of the procedure, and she was gonna get 608 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 7: back to me like within a few days. And I 609 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 7: didn't hear from her, so I kept following up. She 610 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 7: eventually came back and said, sorry, we can't do that. 611 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: The unnecessary procedure had serious consequences beyond the financial cost 612 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: and physical pain. 613 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 7: The hormones that I had to take in preparation for 614 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 7: this biopsy exacerbated my enemy triosis. I got a really 615 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 7: big cyst on my life ovary, and I had three 616 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 7: months of horrible pain from taking these hormones to do 617 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 7: this biopsy that I didn't need to do. And there 618 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 7: was just no accountability anywhere. 619 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,720 Speaker 1: Lacey decided to leave kind Body and transfer her embryo 620 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 1: to another clinic, and she says when she let Kindbody 621 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: know about her decision, they did offer her something. 622 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,359 Speaker 7: I will say they gave me one hundred and fifty 623 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 7: dollars off of that for my troubles with kind Body, 624 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:30,399 Speaker 7: which was. 625 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 8: Which is just in gold. 626 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 1: Kind Body told me that the course of treatment and 627 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:41,240 Speaker 1: medication was consistent with the standard clinical practice to suppress endometriosis. 628 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 1: Thinking back, Lacey said she felt pressured from the beginning 629 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 1: to do the procedure and that she could never get 630 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 1: a straight answer about what it would cost. 631 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 7: I just can't see any other reason than just to 632 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 7: make extra money, you know, at my expense. I already 633 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:04,320 Speaker 7: have an opinion that this particular part of healthcare fertility 634 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:10,280 Speaker 7: is they're taking advantage of women that are quite frankly desperate. 635 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 7: That's why they're able to charge as much as they charge. 636 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 1: But the costs weren't just financial. 637 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 7: Everything that you have to do when you're going through 638 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:26,799 Speaker 7: fertility treatments, every test, every exam, every phone call, every appointment, 639 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 7: every loss, like every single thing is hard, is really hard, 640 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 7: you know, And the further along you go with it, 641 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 7: the harder it gets. There's some train of thought on 642 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:44,400 Speaker 7: their end, on somebody's end, where it's like essentially harmless 643 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 7: to do this biopsy. They can get some information from it, 644 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,759 Speaker 7: you know, whether or not they need that information is 645 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 7: questionable the financial aspect of it aside, it is not harmless. 646 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,120 Speaker 7: It was not harmless to me, And after this whole 647 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 7: ordeal with kind Body, I wanted to be done. 648 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 8: I wanted to give up. 649 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 7: I couldn't do it anymore, like physically, mentally, emotionally. I 650 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 7: was like, I just need to actually get to a 651 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 7: place mentally where I'm okay not being a wall. 652 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 1: After nearly giving up, Lacey decided to try one last 653 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 1: transfer with her remaining umbrew at a different clinic in 654 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 1: New York. Recently, Lacey sent me a voice memo with 655 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:29,320 Speaker 1: an update. 656 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,319 Speaker 7: So, yeah, I'm not totally sure how to start this. 657 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 7: I had my son on September nineteenth vac section, and 658 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 7: he is absolute pure joy. His middle name is Miles, 659 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 7: and one of his nicknames is Smiles Miles because he's 660 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:52,720 Speaker 7: really just the happiest little dude. I often get stopped 661 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 7: by strangers that remark about how absolutely perfect he is. 662 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,879 Speaker 7: When I think back on my journey to get him here, 663 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 7: which I do quite frequently, I still can't believe that 664 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 7: I went through all of that and came out the 665 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:11,760 Speaker 7: other end with this perfect little human. Periodically someone will 666 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 7: say like, how lucky I am, and I always correct 667 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 7: them that luck had nothing to do with it. I 668 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,760 Speaker 7: did this my blood, sweat, tears, heartbreaks, life. 669 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 8: Savings, you name it. 670 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 7: Anything and everything I had, I poured into this and 671 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 7: I made him despite all the obstacles and the horrendous experiences. 672 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:37,399 Speaker 7: And I'm hopeful that my story and the stories from 673 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 7: other women can help begin a greater process of reform 674 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 7: in this field. 675 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: Coming up on IVF Disrupted The Kind Body Story. 676 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,319 Speaker 9: I just remember she wouldn't make eye contact with me, 677 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 9: and the assistan was like doing a lot of the 678 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 9: talking too. 679 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 7: You can't have an employee of yours beer carrier because 680 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 7: that is coercion, because she will feel she can't say no. 681 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,600 Speaker 3: When it comes to who has the opportunity to work 682 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 3: with a surrogate. It's very clear that it is of 683 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 3: the discretion of the treating physician. 684 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 9: I was on mail duty, so I read this in 685 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:25,359 Speaker 9: the office and my jaw hit the floor because I 686 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,879 Speaker 9: was like, what do you actually mean we're doing this? 687 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,720 Speaker 1: IVF Disrupted The Kind Body Story is reported and hosted 688 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 1: by me Jackie Devalos. The series is produced by Sean 689 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 1: Wen and Jilda Decarly, editing by Caitlin Kenney, Jeff Grocott, 690 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 1: and Joshua Brustein. Blake Maples is our sound engineer and composer. 691 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,800 Speaker 1: Voice acting in this episode was provided by Dana Johnston, 692 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 1: fact checking by Anica Robbins. Bloomberg Senior Executive Editor for 693 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 1: Technology is Tom Giles. Our head of podcasting is Sage Bauman. 694 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 1: You can reach us at podcasts at Bloomberg dot net. 695 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,799 Speaker 1: IVF Disrupted is a production of Bloomberg and iHeart Podcasts.