Speaker 1: M hellot Shaker Rights and welcome to the penultimate episode
Speaker 1: of Little Fires Everywhere, the official podcast. If you're listening
Speaker 1: to this podcast after watching episode one oh seven of
Speaker 1: the show, how is everybody doing? No matter which character
Speaker 1: you're rooting for it there is so much going on
Speaker 1: right now. I am personally feeling a lot and there's
Speaker 1: only one more episode of Little Fires Everywhere left to
Speaker 1: tie up all the loose ends and resolve everything that
Speaker 1: needs resolving. What's going to happen between Elena and Mia,
Speaker 1: or to the Shaker Heights teams, or Linda and Baby
Speaker 1: and of course the biggest question of all who burned
Speaker 1: the house down? Who set the Little Fires? Now? I
Speaker 1: can't spoil anything, of course, but I can do what
Speaker 1: I always do, which is bring you behind the scenes
Speaker 1: of the show to hear from the actors, writers and
Speaker 1: wait for it twist. This week, on this episode, we
Speaker 1: are speaking with the therapist Leslie Johnson, m f T,
Speaker 1: who consulted on Little Fires Everywhere, particularly on the adoption
Speaker 1: issues tat book in the series. We're gonna speak with
Speaker 1: the writer for episode one oh seven, Harris Danew, But
Speaker 1: first this is a conversation with Lexi Underwood who plays Pearl,
Speaker 1: Jade Petty John who plays Lexi not confusing at all,
Speaker 1: Megan Stott who plays Izzy, Jordan Elsass who plays Trip,
Speaker 1: and Gavin Lewis, who plays Moody. They've got a lot
Speaker 1: of great stuff to say, so let's take a listen
Speaker 1: to our conversation. I'm Jade Petty John and I play
Speaker 1: Lexi Richardson. I'm Gavin Lewis and I play Moody Richardson.
Speaker 1: Hi am Megan Stott and I play Easy Richardson. Hi.
Speaker 1: I'm Lexi Underwood and I play Pro Warren. Hi. I'm
Speaker 1: Jordan nelson Us and I played Trip Richardson. For everyone
Speaker 1: here who is very young, what was your knowledge of
Speaker 1: nineties culture before you jumped into this project? Was it
Speaker 1: was anyone into it? Was? There are a lot of
Speaker 1: wait what is this? I definitely had some familiarity with
Speaker 1: the nineties music, but there were other elements that I
Speaker 1: had never watched or seen before. There was there was
Speaker 1: a scene, I think in the first or second episode
Speaker 1: where Liz had us improv our thoughts on real World,
Speaker 1: and none of us had watched it before I knew.
Speaker 1: I knew little to nothing about nineties culture. Actually, um,
Speaker 1: I mean I had a gist of the music. You know,
Speaker 1: it comes up occasionally and you listen to the radio,
Speaker 1: but I knew practically nothing. I did all of my
Speaker 1: research after getting the show and found out nineties culture
Speaker 1: is actually a lot of fun I know anything. So
Speaker 1: not only are you sort of like existing in this
Speaker 1: world that is full of nineties culture and references, you
Speaker 1: also had to put yourself in the character mindset of
Speaker 1: someone who would be your age twenty or thirty years
Speaker 1: ago at this point. What was your process for for
Speaker 1: each of you in not just preparing for a role,
Speaker 1: but trying to like put yourself in a specific place
Speaker 1: in time. I think it helped that we had a
Speaker 1: book to play off of. I think that was really
Speaker 1: helpful for me at least because you get to hear
Speaker 1: your character's narrative written for you. And Shaker Heights is
Speaker 1: really interesting that it's it's takes place in the nineties,
Speaker 1: which is you know, definitely much more aggressive, but it's
Speaker 1: also in an environment that's so insulated from the rest
Speaker 1: of the world, and so being able to create what
Speaker 1: that would feel like and create that mentality and a
Speaker 1: lot of that is built off of the conversations that
Speaker 1: we all were able to freely have. Yeah, it felt
Speaker 1: like a really safe place to sort of explore, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, the arcs of of our characters and just
Speaker 1: kind of like play around with it. And I didn't
Speaker 1: feel bound to anything. From the beginning. I felt like
Speaker 1: I could, Like like J was saying, I felt like
Speaker 1: I could have conversations with whoever I needed to, and
Speaker 1: if I wasn't educated, I could get educated. And that
Speaker 1: was the beauty of the whole team, well for me
Speaker 1: at least, tapping into the character of Pearl and like
Speaker 1: really trying to like get in that mindset and relate
Speaker 1: to her. UM. I made a playlist for her UM
Speaker 1: of what songs I think that she would listen to,
Speaker 1: and I had different playlists for like different occasions and
Speaker 1: for different episodes. So I had like a playlist of
Speaker 1: what she would listen to while she was, you know,
Speaker 1: on her way to school, and what she would listen
Speaker 1: to while she was getting ready for the school dance. UM.
Speaker 1: So that helped. And then I also had a little
Speaker 1: journal for her and I would do like daily logs
Speaker 1: when it comes. When it came to every episode, for me,
Speaker 1: the biggest thing was probably just the authentic black mother
Speaker 1: and daughter relationship that Carry and I created because the
Speaker 1: first thing that you see um in Me and Pearls
Speaker 1: World is an encounter with the police, and I think
Speaker 1: that especially a lot of black teenagers can look at
Speaker 1: that in can relate to that. I know, even when
Speaker 1: I was like thirteen fourteen, I had to have that
Speaker 1: conversation with my mom too. I think, honestly, no matter
Speaker 1: what race you are, even if you know we're in
Speaker 1: the in, I feel like you can you can relate
Speaker 1: to some character in the show. Absolutely, because this show
Speaker 1: tackles so many issues that are still very very relevant today.
Speaker 1: Were there any conversations that kind of stick out to
Speaker 1: you of you know, I I'm so glad I was
Speaker 1: able to have this conversation. Were there any conversations that
Speaker 1: were kind of tougher to approach? I think because is
Speaker 1: he such a complicated character we had. Liz and I
Speaker 1: had a lot of conversations about her sexuality and things
Speaker 1: like that, and we had to talk about what she
Speaker 1: was feeling. It was nice to have conversations with her
Speaker 1: because she's one of the writers, and she herself is
Speaker 1: married to a beautiful woman and she has a beautiful son.
Speaker 1: But to have that conversation, it was like you got
Speaker 1: to really dive into what it was like for her
Speaker 1: and what it translated too easy because she was a
Speaker 1: young girl trying to figure out who she was and
Speaker 1: Dizzy is just trying to find out who she is.
Speaker 1: And we had several conversations where we cried a lot
Speaker 1: about life in that time, and I thought it was
Speaker 1: really special that we had to have those deep conversations
Speaker 1: that really stood out to me and helped create the
Speaker 1: role of Izzy. Yeah, and you acted it so beautifully.
Speaker 1: It was so cool, especially to you. That's material that
Speaker 1: wasn't in the book. So where you did everyone read
Speaker 1: the book before production started. Once I found out it
Speaker 1: was being produced, I started. You know what's funny is
Speaker 1: I actually decided to read it after I wanted to.
Speaker 1: I wanted to sort of bring my own take to
Speaker 1: the character and just go based off the scripts because
Speaker 1: I noticed, uh, you know, there are some discrepancies between
Speaker 1: the book and TV shows usually, and I didn't really
Speaker 1: want to know the differences. I just wanted to go
Speaker 1: with it. Yeah, absolutely, So this one's for Jade and Lexi.
Speaker 1: Watching Pearl and Lexi was was that confusing? Yes, we
Speaker 1: so confusing. Okay, So, character wise, Lexi meaning Jade and
Speaker 1: Pearl meaning LEXI have this very complicated friendship, and I'm
Speaker 1: curious about how you, I guess, prepared for that portion
Speaker 1: of the role where I mean we have Lexi meaning
Speaker 1: Jade's character acting out some pretty severe microaggressions and then
Speaker 1: aggressions towards Pearl, and also maintaining this friendship where Pearl
Speaker 1: is able to support her through the abortion narrative. So
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a lot going on. How did you
Speaker 1: prepare for that? Um? Individually and together? The first time
Speaker 1: I read that, Um, that's scene, especially where they're in
Speaker 1: the dressing room and um, Lexi is talking to Pearl. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't see it. Really, it's not a friendship. It's
Speaker 1: Lexi is manipulating Pearl, and especially when she takes the
Speaker 1: when she takes advantage of Pearl with a story and
Speaker 1: even with abortion, I feel like it's honestly, at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, I feel like it's kind of racism.
Speaker 1: But Jade and I on set, we were like so cool.
Speaker 1: It was super weird to like act out those scenes
Speaker 1: because like we're so cool. But Jade absolutely killed it.
Speaker 1: But I don't I don't necessary I don't necessarily know
Speaker 1: if that has if it's a friendship. I think it's
Speaker 1: more just like a one sided manipulation of Lexi seeing
Speaker 1: Pearl as a pawn so she can get what she
Speaker 1: wants at the end of the day. I completely agree
Speaker 1: with you, Alexi. And and it's it's definitely an interesting
Speaker 1: thing when you have a lot of love and admiration
Speaker 1: for the other actor to to suddenly turn around and
Speaker 1: play something that's so divided, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: And I think that approaching a character that is so
Speaker 1: morally gray, you know, such an age old saying amongst
Speaker 1: actors to never judge the character, your character right, otherwise
Speaker 1: you're not able to actually play it authentically because no
Speaker 1: one really believes themselves that they're wrong inherently, you know. Um.
Speaker 1: And that was hard for me to look at because
Speaker 1: you look at the page and you're like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: this is so heartbreaking, and she's just nullifying the other individual,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Whether she's aware of it
Speaker 1: or not. She is And and so for me it
Speaker 1: took a lot of like, Okay, I need to understand
Speaker 1: how she got to a point of of completely lost empathy.
Speaker 1: This next question is for Gavin and Jordan's sort of
Speaker 1: going off of some changes made from the book. I
Speaker 1: think that both of your characters are portraying a very
Speaker 1: specific kind of masculinity that is, maybe, let's say toxic.
Speaker 1: So are these traits that you had recognized previously, whether
Speaker 1: it be in your friends, family, yourself, and then and
Speaker 1: what is the experience like kind of acting that out
Speaker 1: and being the whole? I mean, it's just a lot
Speaker 1: of observing. Like I played a brother, I'm an only child. Um,
Speaker 1: so it's a lot of of just watching it was
Speaker 1: a toxic person that I think he believed Pearl owed
Speaker 1: him for. Um, he sort of gave her what he
Speaker 1: felt like was enough to deserve a relationship. And preparing
Speaker 1: for that was just a lot of watching. Like there's
Speaker 1: a lot of that in society today. Still there shouldn't
Speaker 1: be what there is. I would agree with that, I think,
Speaker 1: And I think what's what's cool about it too is
Speaker 1: that it was, like you said, two totally different kinds
Speaker 1: of toxic masculinity. And it starts out as the Moody
Speaker 1: is sort of the good kid with the good heart,
Speaker 1: and then it sort of flips as you get further
Speaker 1: on and it's like, oh, well, maybe Trip actually is
Speaker 1: the good guy, and then Moody starts to sort of
Speaker 1: become this like more frowned upon, but you feel bad
Speaker 1: for him at the same time. Both of them are
Speaker 1: in the wrong in a lot of ways, and I
Speaker 1: think that Trip starts to sort of figure out that
Speaker 1: there's more to him than the label that's been placed
Speaker 1: stow him, which is sort of this like player gets
Speaker 1: all the girls, but like breaks their hearts and doesn't
Speaker 1: really care about their feelings, doesn't desire these personal relationships
Speaker 1: with with girls, and sort of treats women as if
Speaker 1: they are objects, which obviously you see loads of today.
Speaker 1: It's perpetuated in our culture, and it's it's really ingrained
Speaker 1: in our culture. Unfortunately, Kevin, you sort of alluded to
Speaker 1: it being an only child and all of a sudden
Speaker 1: having three TV siblings building out. I think for the
Speaker 1: Richardson's and the Warren's very realistic, grounded feeling TV families
Speaker 1: and TV families that don't feel like TV families. So
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask both representatives from both families how
Speaker 1: those relationships were built. Lexie let's start with you and
Speaker 1: building the relationship between me and Pearl. What was that
Speaker 1: process like for you and carries? Like at the very
Speaker 1: beginning of filming, she took me out for lunch and
Speaker 1: we sat down and we actually had a conversation about
Speaker 1: how we were going to play the authentic relationship of
Speaker 1: a black mother and water because in the book, you know,
Speaker 1: me and Pearl aren't black, where you don't necessarily know
Speaker 1: their race. So for us, we knew that we had
Speaker 1: to we knew what we had to do, that we
Speaker 1: had to really take one that job of making sure
Speaker 1: that it was you know, authentic. So for building the
Speaker 1: Richardson family dynamic with Ree and Joshua Jackson and all
Speaker 1: of you, I mean are so convincingly like the way
Speaker 1: you would interact, You're like, oh, I do that with
Speaker 1: my brother all the time. So what was building that
Speaker 1: a family dynamic? Like we were able to go when
Speaker 1: we were able to like go bowling, We had events
Speaker 1: where we were able to build those relationships in a
Speaker 1: conducive way where it wasn't like we were stressed about it.
Speaker 1: We weren't like just doing it on set. We had
Speaker 1: times where we could really get to know each other
Speaker 1: and know what our interests were. Yeah, I think, like
Speaker 1: Megan is saying, it's a lot of it's just spending
Speaker 1: time together. And on top of that, I feel like
Speaker 1: we had really good chemistry in real life too. I
Speaker 1: don't know if I agree. Yeah, everybody just got along
Speaker 1: really well, which I think translates really well to the
Speaker 1: on screen chemistry. Um. So it was just a really
Speaker 1: nice cast. Thank you all so much for talking to us,
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you for having us. Of course, thank
Speaker 1: you again to Lexi Underwood, Jade Petty, John, Megan Stott,
Speaker 1: Gavin Lewis, Jordan's Elsas for sitting down with me. And
Speaker 1: I think I speak for everyone when I say respect.
Speaker 1: It is not just any cast that can bring this
Speaker 1: level of performance Opposite Kerry Washington and Reese Weatherspoon and
Speaker 1: the cast absolutely destroys and the material that they're performing
Speaker 1: is no joke either. Both author celest Ing and the
Speaker 1: Little Fires Everywhere writers from tackle every conceivable issue in
Speaker 1: the world of this story. So to hear a little
Speaker 1: bit about writing episode one oh seven and building that
Speaker 1: tension between me and Elena to a climax, I got
Speaker 1: to speak to writer Harris Dano let's hear them of
Speaker 1: the conversation. I'm Harris dan Now and I was a
Speaker 1: producer on the show and I wrote episode seven picture Perfect.
Speaker 1: So when this episode airs, people will have, in theory
Speaker 1: just watched it, and if you haven't watched it, spoiler alert. Um.
Speaker 1: So when you were writing this, were there specific parts
Speaker 1: that you're like, Oh, I can't wait to write this scene?
Speaker 1: Where there're scenes where you're like, Oh, I'm kind of nervous,
Speaker 1: how do I approach this? Or yeah, what was your
Speaker 1: mindset going into it? I think I was really excited
Speaker 1: to write that Reese and carry bathroom scene happens early
Speaker 1: in the episode because they hadn't had screen time together,
Speaker 1: I think for a couple of episodes until that moment.
Speaker 1: And while that's a great scene and I'm proud of
Speaker 1: how it came out, um, there are other scenes that
Speaker 1: I wasn't thinking of quite that way that when I
Speaker 1: watched the episode now are much more meaningful to me.
Speaker 1: When thinking about the episode, I wasn't really thinking about
Speaker 1: Izzy all that much, But when I watch the episode now,
Speaker 1: she's it's such a huge episode for her, and and um,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm very proud about how her scenes
Speaker 1: came out. I mean it, yeah, it's it's written incredibly well.
Speaker 1: She performs the hell out of it. Megan like kills it, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that whole. I mean, I think people will definitely
Speaker 1: have a lot to say about Izzy storyline in this episode.
Speaker 1: It's really exciting. So I wanted to ask you specifically
Speaker 1: because this is a show that centers around women's stories
Speaker 1: and a lot of different types of women and the
Speaker 1: themes of motherhood. But behind all of that and sort
Speaker 1: of subtly influencing some of that, is the show's concept
Speaker 1: and approach to masculinity, which I feel like comes out
Speaker 1: mostly through the Richardson men, where you've got you know,
Speaker 1: Josh Jackson's Bill, and you've got Moody and Trip as well,
Speaker 1: and um, all three of them had their characters pretty
Speaker 1: significantly deepened and explored in the show. And so I'm
Speaker 1: curious about I guess, your experience with that specifically, And
Speaker 1: and then also just what were those conversations like in
Speaker 1: the room of finding Okay, what do we want Bill's
Speaker 1: character to be saying because he doesn't do too much
Speaker 1: in the book, or Yeah, there were conversations I think
Speaker 1: about Bill in particular, And I think in the next episode,
Speaker 1: when you watch the finale, you really get Um. I
Speaker 1: think how we've thought about Bill's relationship with Elena as
Speaker 1: a husband as a man really comes out in the
Speaker 1: next episode. UM. So I'm excited for people to see that.
Speaker 1: But we were very much aware of especially I'm gonna
Speaker 1: speak about Bill in particular. This being a show about
Speaker 1: women and mothers and wives, it's like, what is a
Speaker 1: man's role in this? And and I think you can
Speaker 1: watch Bill um through everything you've seen so far, and
Speaker 1: he's kind of takes a hands off approach anything. It's
Speaker 1: kind of like, Elena, this is your problem, and like
Speaker 1: I I do my part, but you know, I let
Speaker 1: you make all the decisions. He can kind of like
Speaker 1: wash his hands of the whole thing. And you know,
Speaker 1: Elena can you can be the crazy one and I
Speaker 1: can be the same one, even though you're doing of
Speaker 1: the work here. Um. And I'm very much aware of that.
Speaker 1: There's a scene you talk about in the writer's round
Speaker 1: Table that you wrote that I eventually got cut out
Speaker 1: that it seems was pretty well loved in the room.
Speaker 1: What what was that scene? There was a scene of
Speaker 1: Bill going to pick up Izzy, and he has this
Speaker 1: moment with Mia where she's basically thanking him in a way.
Speaker 1: I don't think she says the words thank you. But
Speaker 1: there's this realization, you know, that you had, you could
Speaker 1: have destroyed me, um by bringing up this my past,
Speaker 1: that um that I've been so desperately keeping secreting, and
Speaker 1: you decided not to and why and UM, I think
Speaker 1: it's like you don't have too many moments between Bill
Speaker 1: and Mia UM, and I think that's why I missed it.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't It was what I think. I think
Speaker 1: Bill says something to the effect of, it doesn't matter,
Speaker 1: we're gonna win anyway. But he also this acknowledging that
Speaker 1: you know, ruining your life isn't going to make my
Speaker 1: life better, and besides, we're gonna win. I didn't need
Speaker 1: to do it, but UM, I don't know. I thought
Speaker 1: it was a nice moment between two of them, but
Speaker 1: I totally totally understand why that's to take it out
Speaker 1: there's no room. And then my last question is about Moody,
Speaker 1: and I really really really liked the direction that y'all
Speaker 1: chose to go with him with kind of challenging I
Speaker 1: think a stereotype that is very well recognized of like
Speaker 1: the good guy gets the girl, and in in this
Speaker 1: story where at this point we know that you know,
Speaker 1: Pearl is not interested in him in that way and
Speaker 1: seeing the retaliation that takes place. Where where did that
Speaker 1: come from? Well, I think it's I mean, it's in
Speaker 1: the book. It's it's it's very much in the book.
Speaker 1: But we were totally aware of that. And listen, the
Speaker 1: truth is that I probably related most of all the
Speaker 1: characters to Izzy into Moody, but to Moody in particular.
Speaker 1: So I because I feel like I was that guy. Um.
Speaker 1: I don't think I as quite as UM. I didn't
Speaker 1: think I did all the things that Moody did, um,
Speaker 1: which you will see, just just that mentality. And I
Speaker 1: think it was very important for us to to for
Speaker 1: everyone feel like they're really rooting for Moody and to
Speaker 1: see what happens when um, a boy like that doesn't
Speaker 1: get his way and the way he responds, and UM, yeah,
Speaker 1: absolutely there's a sense of entitlement going on there. You
Speaker 1: owe me if I've been so good to you. I've
Speaker 1: been so nice to you to the point where I
Speaker 1: feel like even audiences are kind of conditioned to be like, oh,
Speaker 1: of course Pearl has to go with him when it's like, well, no,
Speaker 1: what does she want? You know? Yeah, and it's and
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, um, he's entitled to be upset
Speaker 1: about it. I mean, who wouldn't be. But but how
Speaker 1: do you take that out on the other person? I
Speaker 1: think is is the question how do men take it
Speaker 1: out on women who reject them? Yes, which is like
Speaker 1: a fascinating discussion that we don't see happen enough with
Speaker 1: people that you would see in the normal world. That's
Speaker 1: usually you know, like this big looming villain that no
Speaker 1: one's ever actually met, and this is like, no, this
Speaker 1: is a kid that you have known, um, and yeah,
Speaker 1: just seeing that play out was really Yeah. And if
Speaker 1: you think about sort of you know, for the hundred
Speaker 1: years now or whatever, particularly what I'm thinking about the
Speaker 1: movies that I watched growing up, they're all written almost entirely,
Speaker 1: all written by guys like me who were probably like
Speaker 1: pretty nerdy or certainly wasn't the guy who was um
Speaker 1: attracting all the girls in high school. And so so
Speaker 1: many stories we've been conditioned to watch about like these
Speaker 1: boys who were who are just these underdogs, sweethearts who
Speaker 1: are trying to get with, you know, the the popular girl,
Speaker 1: and and in the end she sees him for the
Speaker 1: prince that he really is. And it's a weird revisionist history,
Speaker 1: right right, it's all it's all like, it's all nerd,
Speaker 1: white boy wish fulfillment. Um. And so I'm glad you
Speaker 1: said that. I hadn't thought about it in a while,
Speaker 1: but we were very much aware of, um, how Moody
Speaker 1: was going to react. And again it wasn't seless books.
Speaker 1: She she handles it in a beautiful point there, Chris,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming in and then we're
Speaker 1: talking with us. Yeah, yeah, I love talking about Thanks
Speaker 1: so much to Harris Dane for his time and for
Speaker 1: the wonderful episode. So to round out our podcast episode
Speaker 1: exploring the depths of Little Fires Everywhere this week, I
Speaker 1: got to speak to a very unique consultant who worked
Speaker 1: on the show. Leslie Johnson, m f T is an
Speaker 1: l A Area marriage and family therapist who specializes in
Speaker 1: working with families on all sides of adoption as well
Speaker 1: as children who have been adopted. And if you've seen
Speaker 1: the show, you know this made her invaluable and expanding
Speaker 1: on the storyline following Baby Chow, her daughter may Ling,
Speaker 1: an adoptive mother Linda McCullough, and the politics of adopting
Speaker 1: across race and class lines in the ninet nineties. As
Speaker 1: Leslie has worked with people on every side of this issue,
Speaker 1: and I got a chance to have a conversation with
Speaker 1: her about the process of bringing her knowledge into the
Speaker 1: series recently. So let's take a listen. We are joined
Speaker 1: right now by Leslie Johnson. Welcome, thank you. So let's say,
Speaker 1: how long have you been working in this field. I've
Speaker 1: been licensed therapists since two thousand and three. So how
Speaker 1: did this project end up coming to you? So? I
Speaker 1: was contacted by Liz and she reached out specifically to
Speaker 1: ask me to comment on some of the adoption related
Speaker 1: themes in Little Fires. So I have have you worked
Speaker 1: with clients who were adopted or were adoptive parents in
Speaker 1: the past, many, many clients. That's probably sevent of my
Speaker 1: clientele is UM, people who were adopted adults, kids, teenagers, UM.
Speaker 1: I work with adoptive parents, perspective adoptive parents. I also
Speaker 1: work with first parents or biological parents, depending on the
Speaker 1: term you want to use. And so I felt very
Speaker 1: um able to offer offer some changes and and some
Speaker 1: insight into the experience. Um I myself was adopted, so
Speaker 1: I can definitely lend some of that experience as well.
Speaker 1: Um And in the book, UM I guess where did you?
Speaker 1: What is your gut instinct if you're if you're the
Speaker 1: judge in the mailing case, So that's a really good question.
Speaker 1: I tend to to be trying to be very child centric,
Speaker 1: so what is in the best interests of the child?
Speaker 1: And I think that if there's a way to look
Speaker 1: at adoption as rather not not not in either or,
Speaker 1: but more of a both hands. So a child who
Speaker 1: was adopted has two sets of parents, right, So if
Speaker 1: I can help my work adoptive parents understand that and
Speaker 1: see that and accept that they're then going to be
Speaker 1: their child's best advocate. Have you ever encountered a situation
Speaker 1: that was similar to BABS where a biological parent was
Speaker 1: or a first parent was trying to establish a relationship
Speaker 1: with an adopted with a child that had been adopted. Yes,
Speaker 1: absolutely absolutely, And I think part of it is and
Speaker 1: against I'm speaking very really but that people make decisions, um,
Speaker 1: you know, out of desperation, A lot of times where
Speaker 1: they're not where they don't believe they have the tools
Speaker 1: or the resources to parents, and they make a decision.
Speaker 1: I definitely am not anti adoption, um, but I think
Speaker 1: that it's just more complex than than looking at it
Speaker 1: as you know, someone did something bad by giving up
Speaker 1: their child. Another theme that is kind of effectively expanded
Speaker 1: on is the role of where race and class factor
Speaker 1: into this adoption process, and particularly with class, where you know,
Speaker 1: Bob's character was so destitute and did have so few
Speaker 1: options when she chose to give up mailing that it's
Speaker 1: very understandable that that's the choice that she would make.
Speaker 1: And then the question being now that you know she
Speaker 1: has more options and more of a support system. Have
Speaker 1: you found it can be a positive thing for an
Speaker 1: adopted child to have a relationship with both sets of parents. Um.
Speaker 1: Absolutely so. Again, if we're thinking about it from the
Speaker 1: child's perspective, when when it's healthy and when it's safe
Speaker 1: for them to have there no their biology and no
Speaker 1: there um biological roots and information, I think it's in
Speaker 1: the best interests of the child because what I've found
Speaker 1: is that it frees up so much bandwidth, so you know,
Speaker 1: very very short example is a little family that I
Speaker 1: worked with who had a child that was six and
Speaker 1: was brought in because he was having a lot of
Speaker 1: trouble in school. And when I asked the parents how
Speaker 1: they talked to him about adoption that, they insisted that
Speaker 1: this what had nothing to do with adoption. It was
Speaker 1: just he was having you know, he was having issues
Speaker 1: in school and they really wanted help to figure that out.
Speaker 1: And when they brought him in to see me. So
Speaker 1: I met with the parents first. But when they brought
Speaker 1: him in to see me, Um, he knew that I
Speaker 1: was adopted in and I asked him if he knew
Speaker 1: he was there, and he said, he was there to,
Speaker 1: you know, work on issues in school. But I asked
Speaker 1: him to talk to me. He said, well, I know
Speaker 1: you're you were adopted. And I said, I was adopted
Speaker 1: and I know you were adopted. I said, tell me
Speaker 1: about that. So I said, tell me about that. I
Speaker 1: didn't specify anything else, and he said, well, I think
Speaker 1: about her when I wake up in the morning. I
Speaker 1: think about her when I'm getting ready for school. He was,
Speaker 1: I don't think about her too much at school, but
Speaker 1: I always think about it right before I go to bed.
Speaker 1: And the parents were flabbergasted because they didn't think he
Speaker 1: you know, they didn't think he was even on his mind,
Speaker 1: and so once they started talking about it, it really
Speaker 1: cleared up and cleared out a lot of space for
Speaker 1: him to just be. That's wonderful. Also speaking to the
Speaker 1: way that Mailing's adoption isn't just across class boundaries, it's
Speaker 1: also across race lines. Um, you dealt with clients said
Speaker 1: that's the situation. Yes, absolutely so. When I worked with parents,
Speaker 1: and I do a lot of parent coaching, UM, I
Speaker 1: think it is really important. Um. There's two pieces to
Speaker 1: it that I think that stand out is same race
Speaker 1: or in race adoption allows parents to maybe not talk
Speaker 1: about it as much because it's not as obvious. Um.
Speaker 1: Transracial adoption makes it a little bit more obvious. Um,
Speaker 1: to have those conversations. And I think it's important for
Speaker 1: the parents to be to be educated and to be
Speaker 1: very mindful of that they have a child that's from
Speaker 1: a different culture. UM. You know a lot of times
Speaker 1: people say, and I know this was part of it,
Speaker 1: at least in the scripts that I read, was you know,
Speaker 1: the adoptive parents, Mark and Linda saying, we don't see
Speaker 1: race to me. When I hear that, I guess as
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here as a white person, and I know
Speaker 1: that I hold that privilege. But to say we don't
Speaker 1: see race to me is saying we don't see you. Um.
Speaker 1: So I think it's really important for parents to be
Speaker 1: educated not only about racial difference, but about just their
Speaker 1: their child's birth country. I wanted to shift a little
Speaker 1: and talk about Mark and Linda. I feel like Mark
Speaker 1: and Linda are very much products of their time. You
Speaker 1: just mentioned refusal or not even recognizing that it would
Speaker 1: be important to educate themselves on on mailings culture and
Speaker 1: her origin. How would you have advised them if you
Speaker 1: had been their therapist? You know part of the language
Speaker 1: I often help parents with the language run adoption and
Speaker 1: and you know using um this idea that that choosing
Speaker 1: to form a family by by adoption is not you know,
Speaker 1: adopting a child is not as substitute for a child
Speaker 1: who has died or um miscarriage. It's another way to
Speaker 1: form a family. And so if you go into it
Speaker 1: that way, um, there's it's much healthier. So Leslie for
Speaker 1: people who have seen the show and want to educate
Speaker 1: themselves on adoption more. Where would you direct them for
Speaker 1: a good resource. There's a great podcast called adoptees on
Speaker 1: that's become a lovely resource, and I have a website
Speaker 1: called ask adoption dot com. There are some resources that
Speaker 1: are growing, but again there's still some much room for growth.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for sitting with us great
Speaker 1: thank you for the opportunity. Of course, thank you again
Speaker 1: to Leslie Johnson for the interview and for all the
Speaker 1: amazing work that you do and that is going to
Speaker 1: do it for this episode of Little Fires Everywhere at
Speaker 1: the official podcast, and much like the series itself, it
Speaker 1: is the next to last episode, So tune into the
Speaker 1: podcast next week for one last action packed drama laten
Speaker 1: episode looking behind the scenes of the show, and tune
Speaker 1: into the final episode of Little Fires Everywhere this series
Speaker 1: where all will be revealed and true fans will be
Speaker 1: tweeting their reactions late into the night until then. I'm
Speaker 1: your host, Jamie Loftus. Follow Little Fires Everywhere on all
Speaker 1: social platforms at Little Fires Hulu and try not to
Speaker 1: set any fires this week. See you next week. M