1 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to Why Not Me? Embracing Autism and Mental Health Worldwide? 2 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: Hosted by Tony Mantor, broadcasting from the heart of Music City, USA, Nashville, Tennessee. 3 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,959 Speaker 1: Join us as our guests share their raw, powerful stories. 4 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: Some will spark laughter, others will move you to tears. 5 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: These real life journeys inspire, connect and remind you that 6 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: you're never alone. We're igniting a global movement to empower 7 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: everyone to make a lasting difference by fostering deep awareness 8 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: on wavering acceptance, and profound understanding of autism and mental health. 9 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: Tune in, be inspired, and join us in transforming the world, 10 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: one story at a time. Hi, I'm Tony Menteur. Welcome 11 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: to Why Not Me? Embracing Autism and Mental Health Worldwide. 12 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: This is our special event crafting justice, empowering autism and 13 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,960 Speaker 1: mental health through legislation. Joining us today is Senator Judy Amarbalay. 14 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: She's notably passionate about addressing serious mental illness, informed by 15 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: personal experience, and has advocated for policies like involuntary care 16 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: in extreme cases, a dedicated mental health tax. With a 17 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: proven track record of coalition building and impact legislation, she 18 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: continues to work tirelessly to address Colorado's most pressing challenges. 19 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: She has a wealth of knowledge and is a pleasure 20 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: to have a join us today. Thanks for joining us. 21 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I appreciate you inviting me. 22 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: Oh, it's my pleasure. I understand that you represent the 23 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: people in Colorado. 24 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. I live in Boulder and I represent Boulder, Lewisville, Superior, 25 00:01:58,440 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 2: Gun Barrel in Niwan. 26 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: I understand that your journey to becoming a senator was 27 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: so that you could help those with serious mental illness. 28 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: Can you tell our listeners what led you down that 29 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: journey to help others like you're doing. 30 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 2: I have a son who has Schitzo effective disorder. He 31 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 2: was He did fine, mostly fine through high school, but 32 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 2: towards the end of high school he started showing some 33 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 2: signs of mental illness. He was pretty heavy marijuana user 34 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 2: starting when he was in eighth grade. He really We 35 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 2: tried a lot of things get him to quit and 36 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 2: we were not successful, and then in college he deteriorated further. 37 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 2: When he was about twenty three twenty two twenty three, 38 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 2: he was diagnosed with schizo effective with coccurring substance use 39 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 2: disorder and also anxiety depression. He pretty much has had 40 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 2: every diagnosis you can think of. He has been briefly 41 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 2: homeless on the street. He was at the homeless shelter 42 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 2: and Boulder for about I want to say six months, 43 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 2: maybe it wasn't quite that long. He got thrown out 44 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 2: of there, and then he was criminal justice involved. 45 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: Okay, can you tell us what led to the involvement 46 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: with the criminal justice system with him. 47 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 2: Just doing crazy shit? Sorry, probably can't use that on 48 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 2: your podcast. 49 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: That's no problem, that's real life. Unfortunately, it's just PG 50 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: looking back. Can you tell us some of the things 51 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: you might have seen that now you look at and 52 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: that was just a precursor to what was coming. Because 53 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: I've been told many times that psychosis does evolve over 54 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: a certain period of time within young man. What led 55 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: you to believe that he might have had this until 56 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: he got fully diagnosed. 57 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 2: Well, I mean he started being sort of disconnected from reality. 58 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 2: Like he was going on steady abroad in college and 59 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 2: he said to his dad and me he was going 60 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 2: to Australia, and he said, did you guys know that 61 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 2: Australia isn't even in America? And it was like, hmm, 62 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 2: that's a very odd thing for this pretty well educated 63 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 2: person who's going to Australia, who say, And then he 64 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 2: had a lot of paranoia. He thought that some of 65 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 2: his classmates were trying to hurt him, you know, his 66 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 2: former high school friends were trying to hurt him. And 67 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 2: then the final thing that he told me about was 68 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 2: he said that people could hear his thoughts and I 69 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 2: googled that that's called thought broadcasting and that is a 70 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 2: hallmark of schizophrenia. And he did have also a lot 71 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 2: of mood swings mood disorder, so he would get super depressed. 72 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: He did attempt suicide. I would say his suicide attempts 73 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 2: were somewhat half hearted, but nonetheless pretty scary. 74 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can just imagine. So through all this process, 75 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 1: I mean, it's the big unknown. You just don't understand 76 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: what's happening. You're only going by Google and what the 77 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: doctors are telling you. But it's still very confusing. So 78 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 1: how did that affect your family? 79 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's a train wreck for your whole family, 80 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 2: partly because everybody's mad at the person who's sick, and 81 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 2: it feels manipulative. It feels like they're just not trying. 82 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 2: Like it is really hard to understand what's going on, 83 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 2: and to have empathy and compension for your own child, 84 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 2: let alone his brothers. So I actually, and it sounds 85 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 2: kind of cliche, but one of my sisters insisted that 86 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 2: we take this class together. At the National Alliance for 87 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 2: Mental Illness, they had a class called Family to Family 88 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 2: in Boulder, and it was incredibly eye opening for me. 89 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 2: Like I thought, I'm pretty well informed, but sitting in 90 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 2: a room for twelve weeks with a bunch of other 91 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 2: people who had loved ones who had all kinds of 92 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 2: different stories but also some pretty similar stories, and seeing 93 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 2: how angry people were at the beginning, and like looking 94 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,799 Speaker 2: at that and thinking, well, that seems like the wrong response, 95 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 2: and then internalizing that and saying, well, I'm doing that too. 96 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 2: That is what the class is kind of about, is 97 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 2: some education, then moving you to empathy not just for 98 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: your person but for other people, and then finally too advocacy. 99 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 2: Advocacy for your person and then also advocacy for others. 100 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: When you came out of the class, how did it 101 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 1: affect you? And then how did you move forward from it? 102 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I definitely understood a lot more about 103 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 2: the disease I did have. I was able to get 104 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 2: to a way more empathy, a place of empathy for 105 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 2: my kid. He needed that, but also I really needed that. 106 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 1: Yes, I can understand that because as much as it 107 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: affects the person that's afflicted, it also affects the people 108 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 1: that's around him. Then add to it, if you don't 109 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: have the understanding, or if you do have the understanding, 110 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: it is still a difficult place to navigate through. 111 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really I mean. So the other thing is 112 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 2: is that you go, Okay, I'm not alone, and what's 113 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 2: happening in my family isn't unique. There are some unique elements, 114 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 2: I'm sure, but it's happening to a lot of people, 115 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 2: and then you don't feel quite so isolated either, because 116 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 2: it is very isolating. I mean, you know, they talk 117 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: about I haven't heard this in a long time, but 118 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 2: it's the no castle role disease. So you tell your friend, oh, 119 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 2: my kid is in jail, you had a psychotic break 120 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 2: and push somebody down. They don't come over with a 121 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: castle role, you know, they're just they don't have any 122 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 2: idea how to respond to that, or my kid's in 123 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 2: the hospital. Just to be clear, my kid never was 124 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 2: never in jail. He pled his case, he got probation, 125 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 2: he never had to go to jail. He was in 126 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 2: the hospital a lot and again, and they didn't come 127 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 2: over with cast roles. Nobody sent flowers. It is really different. 128 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 2: And also people try to minimize it. Oh, he's fine, 129 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 2: he'll be fine. I saw him the other day and 130 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 2: he seemed fine. And they don't do that with other illnesses. 131 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 2: You don't have to defend the fact that the person 132 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 2: is sick. You know, people just accept what you tell them. 133 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: Yes, very much like I had a person on my 134 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: podcast a few months ago, good sized guy, very healthy. 135 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: He says, if I tell him I'm autistic, they go, oh, 136 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: you don't look autistic. But he says, if I was 137 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: to tell them I had cancer, they'd be going, oh, 138 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: how can I help? 139 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean that also brings up this other 140 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 2: thing in my head. People say, oh, these schizophrenics. We 141 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 2: don't say these cancers. He is a person who has schizophrenia. 142 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 2: And it's a funny wordsmith thing, like I don't really 143 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: love that, but it actually really sticks when people say 144 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 2: that because he's not schizophrenic. He's my kid and he 145 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 2: has schizophrenia. 146 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:13,079 Speaker 1: So once you got through all this what ultimately led 147 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: for you to run and get into the Senate. 148 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 2: Well, okay, so I was in the House first. Just 149 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 2: to be clear, I was in the House for four years. 150 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 2: And so what led me to do that? 151 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 1: Oh, okay, that makes sense. 152 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 2: Well it was probably a number of things. But Boulder 153 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 2: decided to run a tax to build an alternative sentencing 154 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 2: facility at the jail so that they could do work release. 155 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,319 Speaker 2: And I wrote an op ed that said, why are 156 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,719 Speaker 2: we doing that when the way to keep people out 157 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 2: of jail is to build a hospital, a continuum of 158 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 2: care so that we can actually help people get better. 159 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,599 Speaker 2: Let's take our tax money and build a hospital. The 160 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 2: alternative sentencing facility expossed with like eighty five percent of 161 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 2: the vote, so clearly no one was on my team. 162 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 2: I said, I'm voting no on this because it's the 163 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 2: wrong thing to do. But a woman who had run 164 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,439 Speaker 2: Mental Health Partners and who was involved with NAMI and 165 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 2: the NAMI policy Committee reached out to me Phoebe Norton 166 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 2: is her name, and said we would be on our 167 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 2: policy committee. So I did that. We went around and 168 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: met with all these different people, legislators and county commissioners 169 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 2: and city council people. It did become really clear that 170 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:33,079 Speaker 2: no one, none of these people had this kind of experience. 171 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 2: And then I got on the board of Mental Health Colorado, 172 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 2: went down there and said, hey, I want to work 173 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 2: on policy. Andrew Romanov was running it at the time, 174 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 2: and he kind of sussed me out and said, well, 175 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 2: you can be on our board. So I was on 176 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,679 Speaker 2: the board. But I also did get to work on policy, 177 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 2: and that was really eye opening and important to see 178 00:10:55,679 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 2: how hard it is to even pass a simple change policy, 179 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 2: and how many people are interested and how many different 180 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 2: points of view there are on every little thing. So 181 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 2: I did that just for a short while and then I, 182 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:17,199 Speaker 2: I don't know, the seat was open, and I testified 183 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 2: on the red Flag law in twenty nineteen, and I 184 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 2: told this story about how my kid had said he 185 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 2: wanted to get a gun so he could kill himself, 186 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 2: and then I saw on his debit card that he 187 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 2: had made a purchase, like a ten or fifteen dollars 188 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 2: purchase at the gun shop, and so his dad and 189 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 2: I went running down there and were like, what's happening, 190 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 2: And they said, well, your person was here and he's 191 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 2: going to buy a gun, and his background checked didn't 192 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 2: come back instantly. So this is the gun. And they 193 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,319 Speaker 2: showed us the gun and they said, we're just waiting 194 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 2: for his paperwork to come back. We you know, cried 195 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 2: and carried on, and they said, okay, we won't sell 196 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 2: the gun. And they wrote on the paperwork not to 197 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 2: sell it to him. But I wanted to tell that story. 198 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 2: So I get down there and I'm waiting for five 199 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 2: hours to testify, and it's my turn on a panel 200 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 2: with some other people. And I said the committee members 201 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 2: were getting some food and I said, well, I see 202 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 2: you all. I got dinner, and I just want you 203 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 2: to know that in the cheap seats back here, we 204 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 2: didn't get any food. And Tom Sullivan it was a joke. 205 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 2: And Tom Sullivan said to me, well, if you want 206 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 2: to eat, you got to run. 207 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: You just brought up policies and how difficult it is. 208 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: I've talked with senators and legislators as well as former 209 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: US House of Representatives, and you've got lived experience. Some 210 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: of these people don't have, although some do. I would 211 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: be interested to hear your perspective. Number one, how does 212 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: that make a difference for you even though you have 213 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 1: the lived experience, You're having to deal with legislators that 214 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: do not They only hear from people that give them 215 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: their perspectives. How do you bridge that gap for those 216 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: that do not understand so that they can get on 217 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: board and make legislation that will help everyone. 218 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard, actually, And also I have my perspective, 219 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 2: and so what I've figured out is that not everybody, 220 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 2: even if they have lived experience, they don't necessarily agree 221 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 2: about the way forward. So for example, people who have 222 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 2: who I've met along the way, who have some of 223 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 2: them have deep seated mistrust for their family. And you know, 224 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 2: I come at it from the perspective of I'm trying 225 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 2: to help and the system is pushing me away at 226 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 2: every turn. You know, I have hundreds of families that 227 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 2: I've talked to, and there's a group called Mad Moms 228 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 2: that's got four hundred families now involved, and we all 229 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 2: have this same experience, which is we're not allowed to 230 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 2: participate in a way that would be more helpful, and no, 231 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 2: he wants to talk to us until it's time to 232 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 2: pay the bill and they realize the person isn't going 233 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 2: to be able to navigate that, or until they just 234 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 2: need somebody to come pick them up because they're releasing 235 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 2: them from a hospital or that kind of thing. That's 236 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 2: been incredibly frustrating. And then you know, to have this 237 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 2: other experience of people who don't want that, They don't 238 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 2: want their family to participate. They feel like where they 239 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 2: are is maybe their family's fault. 240 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: So navigating that, a lot of states have what they 241 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: call aot Is this something that is on your plate 242 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: and you're trying to push and get changed as well. 243 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 2: I've been beating this drum. I do work on a 244 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 2: lot of criminal justice stuff, but I have been beating 245 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 2: this drum about you have to have a good, solid 246 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 2: civil system and a way to get people committed, short 247 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 2: term commitment, a way to have people go even if 248 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 2: they don't think they want to, to get treatment. So 249 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 2: I've been working on all this criminal justice stuff and 250 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 2: we've been working on how to get people out of jail. 251 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 2: But it's like, if you get somebody out of jail, 252 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 2: but you never get them care, they just come back, 253 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 2: They just cycle in and out, in and out of 254 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 2: this system. The answer, in my opinion, is to get 255 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 2: them into care, and that might mean a civil commitment. 256 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 2: You know, maybe it's three months, maybe it's three weeks. 257 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 2: I don't know. It depends on the person. But we 258 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 2: have to at least be open to the idea that 259 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 2: somebody might need to spend months trying to figure out 260 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 2: what the right medication is and getting stabilized and getting 261 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 2: other things that might help them to get better, getting 262 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 2: you know, eating nutritious food and all kinds of things. 263 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 2: So but I've made a little headway on that. The 264 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 2: other day, one of the attorneys who I work with 265 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 2: a lot said to me, Okay, you're right, I'm ready 266 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 2: to work on that, you know, because the knee jerk 267 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 2: thing is that's just another way of locking people up. 268 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 2: But I don't want to just throw people into poorhouses. 269 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 2: I want there to be good care. Because people get 270 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 2: good care get better. Not everybody, but a lot of 271 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 2: people do. And also we have to admit that some 272 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 2: people are never going to get better. They can't live 273 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 2: out in the world on their own, and so we 274 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 2: had to figure out something for them too. 275 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a tough thing to acknowledge and admit sometimes 276 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: and most times, when you're dealing with the House in 277 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: the Senate, they are always looking at bottom dollar. In 278 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: other words, budget how can they not see by not 279 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: fixing this, or at least by not trying to fix this, 280 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: that it's just going to cost the taxpayers millions and 281 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: millions of dollars, and many times, if they can fix it, 282 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: these people can be diverted to other places and most 283 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: always the legal system will never see them again. How 284 00:16:58,360 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: can we get that put in place? 285 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 2: I mean, I'll just say, like here in Colorado, one 286 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 2: of the big things that we're dealing with is this 287 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 2: competency waitlist. So every year we have one hundreds of 288 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 2: people who are sitting in jail waiting for a bed 289 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 2: at the state hospital to get their competency restored so 290 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 2: that they can proceed with their legal case. Competency restoration 291 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 2: isn't treatment for your mental illness. It's just a workbook. 292 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 2: And as soon as you can pare it back what's 293 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 2: in the workbook, you're good to go and then your 294 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 2: case can proceed. And we are under this consent decree 295 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 2: because we got sued and we're spending twelve million dollars 296 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:39,199 Speaker 2: a year on this consent decree, and the legislators have 297 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 2: bought into this idea of we just have to make 298 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 2: this competency weightless go away. So you know, we put 299 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 2: eighty million dollars into beds, more beds, serge beds at 300 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 2: private mental health hospitals to make the weightless go away. 301 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 2: And what happened is we went from four to fifty 302 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 2: to two fifty and then three point fifty, and we're 303 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 2: headed back up to four fifty because those people and 304 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 2: new people are just cycling around, and new people who 305 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 2: are becoming sick there's no civil system for them to 306 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 2: get care before they ever get into the criminal justice system. 307 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 2: Many of us were like, no, we should take half 308 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 2: of the serge bed money and put it into civil 309 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 2: beds and then let's get people into that system sooner. 310 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 2: And you know, we just couldn't win the day because 311 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 2: everybody is just burdened with this short term thinking. So 312 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 2: if the benefits come down the road, I don't know 313 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 2: if it's because we have term limits or like, I'm 314 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 2: not sure, but no one wants to wait to see 315 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 2: what might come down the road. They just want a 316 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 2: fix right now. And of course that's an absurd way 317 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 2: to go about it. And we're seeing now, of course 318 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 2: that it doesn't work. It didn't work for us, It 319 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 2: wasn't the way, And I've been really trying to help 320 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 2: people understand about what this cycling is. This thing that 321 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 2: I heard a podcast out of Washington that was called 322 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 2: the churn. And if we don't interrupt this churn, we're 323 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 2: not fixing anything. And now that we're looking at Medicaid 324 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 2: dollars being reduced, it's just going to get a lot 325 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 2: worse and we're going to have a lot more people 326 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 2: ending up in jail in homelessness, and we're going to 327 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 2: have a much longer list for the state hospital. 328 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I heard, and I can't remember where I 329 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: heard it, that decades ago we had X amount of 330 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 1: beds and it seems like each decade the beds are 331 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: getting smaller and smaller in availability. And because of that, 332 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 1: there are no facilities that are able to take the 333 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 1: people that actually need the help. Then because of that, 334 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: they find ways to put them back on the street, 335 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: so they wind up living on the street, in a 336 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: homeless shelter, or unfortunately incarcerated. We have to find a 337 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 1: way to educate these people. A lot of these people are, 338 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: of course, our representatives, the ones that are elected and 339 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: served to help our communities. It seems like a sa 340 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: vicious circle to get them to understand, kind of like 341 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 1: a savicious circle that churn podcast that you just mentioned. 342 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that there is we are having a 343 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 2: dawning awareness. Like California tried to do this care courts thing. 344 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 2: I don't think it's been very effective, and I'm not 345 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 2: exactly sure why, but we I did go with a 346 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 2: group of people from Colorado to look at that. You know, 347 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 2: they had a meeting with all these families and advocates, 348 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 2: and the families wanted involuntary commitment, and the advocates did 349 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 2: not want involuntary commitment, so they ended up not having 350 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 2: involuntary commitment. They have voluntary commitment, and they've poured a 351 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 2: bunch of money into that system. But I don't know 352 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 2: that it's really helping or it's not helping in the 353 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:00,959 Speaker 2: way that people had hoped. 354 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very tough. Without some sort of AOT, some 355 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: sort of safety net, what do we do. Many times 356 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: you will hear stories of people getting picked up by 357 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: the police, take him to the hospital. Then the doctors 358 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 1: say that he's not a threat to himself or others 359 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 1: at this point in time, so their hands are tied 360 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 1: and they can't do anything. It's sad that their hands 361 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 1: are tied because they may not be a threat to 362 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,360 Speaker 1: themselves or others at that point in time, but give 363 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: them a few hours, a few days, or whatever time frame, 364 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: and they could be. We need to find a way 365 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: to help these people so that they don't wind up 366 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: in that type of situation. 367 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, okay, So this year we've passed a bill 368 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 2: right now in Colorado, if you are a hospital and 369 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 2: you have somebody and you keep them and they're on Medicaid, 370 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 2: and you keep them for more than fifteen days, you 371 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 2: don't get paid for any of this day. So you 372 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 2: have to get them out of there before the fifteen 373 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 2: days are up in order to get paid. And if 374 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 2: the person is in three different hospitals for five or 375 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 2: six days in each hospital, none of the hospitals get paid, 376 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 2: and they don't even know the person was in a 377 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 2: different hospital because we don't have good data sharing. But 378 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 2: we got a waiver from the federal government for Medicaid 379 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 2: that says now going forward, a hospital can keep you 380 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 2: for up to sixty days. So in this bill that 381 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 2: we passed this year, it says it codifies this waiver 382 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 2: that allows the hospital to get paid for up to 383 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 2: sixty days, and it says if somebody's in your hospital 384 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 2: on a short term a three day hold and M one, 385 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 2: you have to evaluate them for a longer term stay. 386 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 2: And this year will maybe come back and say least 387 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 2: One of the things you have to consider is their history, 388 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 2: see if maybe they qualified. So how many times were 389 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 2: they on an M one hold? How many time were 390 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 2: they in jail previous? Have they been homeless? Like these 391 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 2: things should factor into this decision about whether you qualify. 392 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 2: It shouldn't just be you know what's happening in that 393 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 2: exact moment. 394 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I totally agree with you one. So in closing, 395 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:19,439 Speaker 1: we've covered numerous things here, all very important topics. So 396 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: this is a very broad question, one that might not 397 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: have a perfect answer, but it has to be asked. 398 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: So what do we do? We have many of the 399 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: things that we talked about, plus the things that you 400 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: brought up, and it seems like a lot of things 401 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,439 Speaker 1: are just so restrictive in helping these people. Even if 402 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: they're not asking for it, they still need this help. 403 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: So how do we get past some of these barriers 404 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: so that we can actually do what we're trying to 405 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: do And that's help people that need the help. 406 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I'll just start with this. Beds, beds, beds. 407 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 2: We need beds, and we don't have them. We have 408 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 2: we need and we need a continuum of care. So 409 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 2: we need hospital beds, we need transition to living homes, 410 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 2: which Colorado just we are building some of those. We 411 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 2: need group homes, we need boord of housing, all of that. 412 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 2: We need this continuum of care so that somebody who 413 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,679 Speaker 2: has serious mental illness is getting cared for for the 414 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 2: rest of their life in the way that is the 415 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 2: least restrictive that they need. We do that with people 416 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 2: who have diabetes, or people who have severe autism, or 417 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 2: people who have, you know, a heart disease. We take 418 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 2: care of them and we help them and we give 419 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,479 Speaker 2: them what they need. And we need to do that 420 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 2: with mental illness. Now. In terms of how do we 421 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 2: find the money to do all of that, I don't know. 422 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 2: I get in my car at night and I think, 423 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 2: what have we done in the time I've been there. 424 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 2: We've passed a lot of bills on this topic, and 425 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,439 Speaker 2: I'm not sure if we've helped anybody or not. 426 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I get it. I was speaking with a 427 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 1: member of the House of Representatives in Iowa. Just the 428 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: other day they passed a bill. Everybody voted for it, 429 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: got to the Senate, it got killed. So now they 430 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: have to wait till next year to reintroduce the bill 431 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: again and hope that it passes. If there was one 432 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: person that needed that pasted, just one, then the Senate 433 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 1: failed them. We have to find a way to get 434 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 1: wins instead of losses. 435 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'll tell you what. I have a pretty 436 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 2: good track record of wins on the mental health stuff. 437 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 2: That's great, and big part of that is I've just 438 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 2: been fortunate to work with people who are willing to 439 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 2: come together. So the criminal justice stuff, the Public Defender's 440 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 2: office and the DA's office, they're legislative people, are reasonable 441 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 2: people who want to get to a compromise, who would 442 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 2: rather see something happen than nothing. So we've had good 443 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 2: luck with that. But the knock it out of the 444 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 2: ballpark big changes are really hard to come by. 445 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's understandable. Well, this has been a great conversation, 446 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,439 Speaker 1: great information. I really appreciate you taking the time to 447 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: join us today. 448 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for taking the time to care about this. 449 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: Oh it's my pleasure. Thanks again, thanks for taking time 450 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: out of your busy schedule to listen to our show today. 451 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed it as much as we enjoyed 452 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: bringing it to you. If you know someone who has 453 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: a story to share, tell them to contact us at 454 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: whyom dot world. 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