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Speaker 1: She liked to take things from you and let you

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Speaker 1: know she's the boss.

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Speaker 2: And if you don't.

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Speaker 1: Obey her, kiss up to her, listen to her, and

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Speaker 1: appease her, she will immediately let you know by taking

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Speaker 1: something from you.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm

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Speaker 3: Jess Cassavetto, executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for

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Speaker 3: the Devil the Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series

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Speaker 3: explored the story of Robert Shinn, the la based to

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Speaker 3: kind of Church and Seven M Films. Shin founded Chakina

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Speaker 3: Church over two decades ago before establishing seven M Films

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Speaker 3: and is named in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and

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Speaker 3: cult like behavior.

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Speaker 4: And I'm Clia Gray for remember of Chakina Church and

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Speaker 4: Seven M Films.

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Speaker 3: In this episode, we have Priscilla Lee, who was not

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Speaker 3: only such an intricate part in the documentary, but one

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Speaker 3: of the voices that has stood up to share not

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Speaker 3: only her truth but expose the wrong doers. She also

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Speaker 3: shares her experience filming Dancing for the Devil, the docuseries

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Speaker 3: that we did for Netflix, including her powerful sit down

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Speaker 3: with her sister Melan Korea and Finally, pre will also

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Speaker 3: reflect on her personal growth and healing process, emphasizing the

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Speaker 3: importance of sobriety, resilience, and reclaiming one's life after trauma. Priscilla,

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Speaker 3: thank you so much for joining us today on forgive me.

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Speaker 1: Hi oh no, thank you for having me. It's such

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Speaker 1: a pleasure to be here. I haven't seen Khalia in ages.

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Speaker 3: Ages.

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Speaker 2: It feels like it's like such a long time.

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Speaker 1: And then like seeing you now reminds you of like flashback,

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Speaker 1: so like service days just kind of comes to me

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Speaker 1: right now, Wow, crazy.

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Speaker 2: Let's go back.

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Speaker 3: We'll go all the way back. But you joined the

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Speaker 3: church in nineteen ninety nine and you were nineteen years

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Speaker 3: old at that time. Yes, So what was it that

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Speaker 3: drew you in initially? And how did your relationship with

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Speaker 3: your family play a role in that decision in joining

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Speaker 3: the church.

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Speaker 1: So the reason I joined Chakaina was because my sisters

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Speaker 1: started attending Chokina. And the reason my sisters started attending

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Speaker 1: Shakaina is because my older sister Joan, who is not

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Speaker 1: talked about in the documentary, but a picture of her

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Speaker 1: is shown in the documentary, knew of a. We call

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Speaker 1: him Opae Korean older brother in a different church that

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Speaker 1: she attended, and he started witnessing to her in ninety nine.

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Speaker 1: Although they haven't talked to each other for a few

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Speaker 1: years prior to that, he just kind of appeared in

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Speaker 1: her life and he started the conversation with I found

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Speaker 1: the church.

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Speaker 2: This is the church.

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Speaker 1: And I had just come back from Korea, and so

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Speaker 1: I was definitely bruised with a lot of trauma that

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Speaker 1: had happened in Korea, and the last thing I wanted

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Speaker 1: to do was joined a church, although I was always

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Speaker 1: Christian and I always had gone to church even in Korea.

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Speaker 1: But he got to my sister Joan, and he hooked

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Speaker 1: her through Robert's instructions to Joshua and how to handle her.

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Speaker 1: And I lived with my sister. She was the one

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Speaker 1: on the lease. She was the one that had the job.

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Speaker 1: She's the one that had a car. I had nothing.

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Speaker 1: I just came from Korea and they had us move

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Speaker 1: closer to the church, and I didn't have a choice.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, when you first joined Chicina, was that towards the

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Speaker 4: beginning of when Chikina was being developed.

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Speaker 1: When I joined Chicina, it was very new, you know.

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Speaker 1: I was told by Robert that he started Chicaga in

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Speaker 1: ninety four. But you know, it was just like family,

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Speaker 1: you know, and just very very very few people. And

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Speaker 1: so he had the church going on for like five years.

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Speaker 1: At the time when I joined, it was one of

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Speaker 1: those churches where I said, this is the last place

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Speaker 1: I want to be in. It's not that kind of

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Speaker 1: church I want to be in. Because it was Robert

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Speaker 1: preaching and like two people on the worship team Robert's sister,

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Speaker 1: her three young daughters Jamie, and old member who's no

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Speaker 1: longer there, and like maybe like two or three more people,

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Speaker 1: and they're all in the front just like raising their

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Speaker 1: hands and dancing and saying hallelujah. I just thought they

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Speaker 1: were crazy. Yeah, And I said, this is not for me,

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Speaker 1: Like I consider myself.

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Speaker 2: A cool person. You know, this is not the place

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Speaker 2: I want to be in.

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Speaker 1: But I gotta tell you my little sister, Melanie, she

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Speaker 1: was the reason why I stayed.

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Speaker 4: So you mentioned that like Robert had coached you guys

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Speaker 4: about business and how to succeed in business, and a

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Speaker 4: lot of these early experiences, how did they shape your

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Speaker 4: views on success in faith?

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Speaker 1: So, you know, I was nineteen, my sister was three

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Speaker 1: years older than me, and you know, we haven't had

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Speaker 1: our parents for years.

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Speaker 2: At that point.

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Speaker 1: We just raised ourselves, and it is unfortunate that we

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Speaker 1: also have family that didn't really care to take on

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Speaker 1: the burden and helping us or raising us. So having

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Speaker 1: an adult figure who's also Korean coach you in how

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Speaker 1: to do interviews, tell you how the world operates. As

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Speaker 1: far as business, you're worth in the workplace, having somebody

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Speaker 1: to advise you and say, hey, you know, even though

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Speaker 1: you guys are not here legally.

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Speaker 2: It's okay.

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Speaker 1: These are the laws, giving you some assurance that you

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Speaker 1: can go on and continue living and attempt to create

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Speaker 1: something for yourself. And he did that, and he did

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Speaker 1: that well. Obviously he wasn't the only one. He did

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Speaker 1: it through Catherine, his sister, who was a mentor of

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Speaker 1: Chakaina and a pivotal person in creating the Chakaina.

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Speaker 2: That is today.

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Speaker 1: And he also used Joshua, somebody that my sister was

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Speaker 1: already close to, who we trusted as an older brother,

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Speaker 1: who we viewed as a really good Christian right, And

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Speaker 1: imagine having nothing and nobody, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: you have all these people just saying, hey, I'm here

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Speaker 1: for you. We're gonna help you make more money. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I grew up starving. So when somebody says, oh, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to help you make a lot of money and

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Speaker 1: you're going to have your own places, like a dream

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Speaker 1: come true, You're like, oh my God, finally, like somebody's

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Speaker 1: gonna help me. So, you know, I like to give

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Speaker 1: credit words due and I'll say this mass manipulator, Robert

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Speaker 1: is in getting into people in their weakest times.

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Speaker 2: So bravo Robert.

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Speaker 4: After the break, we continue our conversation with Priscilla. This

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Speaker 4: is forgive me for I have followed. We'll be right back.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now

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Speaker 3: back to our conversation with Priscilla. Priscilla, you mentioned that,

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Speaker 3: you know, early on you came in and it was

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Speaker 3: a place where you're like, oh, this isn't really for me.

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Speaker 3: Did you notice any sort of red flags in the

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Speaker 3: beginning that something was a little off outside of like

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Speaker 3: people just kind of hoppering around in Hallelujah's hands in

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Speaker 3: the air.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I've never been to a church where the pastor

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Speaker 1: says the name Jesus so many times throughout the service

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Speaker 1: and shouts it in your face.

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Speaker 2: And then obviously.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if Kaalia ever experienced this, Kalia, because

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Speaker 1: my memory is kind of like, you know, yeah, the

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Speaker 1: shouting money coming to me now with the hands, Kalia,

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Speaker 1: did you ever see that happening?

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Speaker 2: She kinda yeah. They did that every service. Oh really,

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Speaker 2: they did every service.

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Speaker 1: I'm so used to it that you know, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like, I'm like, how.

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Speaker 2: Many times may we do it? Right? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Really alarming to say the least. It had a bad feeling.

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Speaker 1: And you know what, now that I think about it,

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Speaker 1: because I'm like reliving that moment I felt. And I

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Speaker 1: didn't know what cult was at the time. I was

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Speaker 1: so naive. I've just been like surviving. I was in

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Speaker 1: Korea from like fifteen to nineteen, so it's Korea is

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Speaker 1: very different, right. I felt it was like a cult,

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Speaker 1: but I got overruled because I was very much dependent

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Speaker 1: on my older sister to live.

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Speaker 3: When you ladies were saying, is he saying money cometh

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Speaker 3: to me?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 3: Money come to me Jesus? Like, so it really is

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Speaker 3: about money? Like in that's yeah, I think Briscilla, you

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Speaker 3: said that it was happening so often that you just

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Speaker 3: don't even know when and where it happened in Kalia,

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Speaker 3: mentioning that it happened every church service.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like at the beginning of every service, I would say,

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Speaker 4: it's either like I think we would do like worship

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Speaker 4: and then prayer, and I think after prayer, like it

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Speaker 4: would be something that we would chant and I was

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Speaker 4: gonna chime in because it's like, in hindsight, it really

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Speaker 4: gives that, like, so this is one of the main

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Speaker 4: themes of this church is it's money.

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Speaker 2: It's about money.

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Speaker 4: And it's odd because it's like your worship being money

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Speaker 4: or worshiping that golden calf that the Bible talks about

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Speaker 4: not to worship. But that's such a main part of

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Speaker 4: these services. And of course that's in hindsight because in

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Speaker 4: the moment, it was like, no, we're saying Jesus, so

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Speaker 4: we're just asking God to bless us like the Bible says.

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Speaker 4: But it's like, no, I think it's a little bit

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Speaker 4: deeper there, and that's why we're we were doing it

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Speaker 4: every service because it was one of the main you know, that.

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Speaker 3: Would be a red flag for me too if I

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Speaker 3: go in somewhere, but like you're saying clea when you're

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Speaker 3: in it and it's masked within all these other things

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Speaker 3: like worship and friends and you know, the energy of

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Speaker 3: what you feel in church. I could see how you

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Speaker 3: can easily be like, Okay, maybe that was a little

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Speaker 3: bit weird, but it we'll just push that off to

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Speaker 3: the side.

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Speaker 2: Let's let's keep going. In hindsight, everything is clear.

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Speaker 1: It's really important to understand in my situation is my

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Speaker 1: older sister, Joan, never went to Korea. She stayed here

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Speaker 1: and she was barely surviving when I was fourteen. My

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Speaker 1: mom just appeared and then she just moved in with

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Speaker 1: some friends and she was making a living and she

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Speaker 1: was seventeen eighteen at that point, barely graduated high school.

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Speaker 1: And Melanie, my little sister, and I went to Korea

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Speaker 1: to live with my dad because my mom disappeared, and

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Speaker 1: therefore like they kicked us out of the apartment, like

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Speaker 1: we had nowhere to go. We absolutely had no money.

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Speaker 1: I was fourteen and Melanie was nine. So when we

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Speaker 1: reunited in ninety nine, Melanie had come back to the

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Speaker 1: States in nineteen ninety seven or nineteen ninety eight from Korea,

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Speaker 1: and I came back in ninety nine. We decided we're

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Speaker 1: going to be a family unit, you know, because now

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Speaker 1: we're older, we've kind of experienced life, you know, we

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Speaker 1: went through our own tumultuous life as a young adult

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Speaker 1: having to live like an adult, right, and we said,

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Speaker 1: all right, let's.

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Speaker 2: Make this happen.

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Speaker 1: But we were like three different people, well too, my

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Speaker 1: older sister and I, you know, both headstrong. We had

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Speaker 1: our own views of how we're going to raise Melanie

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Speaker 1: and how we're going to take care of her and

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Speaker 1: how we're going to live together as a family. And

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Speaker 1: then she kind of appears and then you feel like

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Speaker 1: it's like a godsend.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: So red flags were not red flags, they were orange,

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Speaker 1: possibly yellow. And it's one of those things. Because we

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Speaker 1: grew up Christians, we always thought God is a god

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Speaker 1: of miracles. And I'm not going to discount churches in

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Speaker 1: general because that's not right, but I wish churches will

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Speaker 1: focus less on the miracles that happen once in a

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Speaker 1: lifetime and not let that be a representation who God is,

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Speaker 1: because God is our day to day God and there's

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Speaker 1: a lot more to learn about life than expecting a

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Speaker 1: miracle to fall on your lap. But we were raised

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Speaker 1: to believe miracles happen, and you know, there's all these

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Speaker 1: stories of oh my God, God came through. You know,

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Speaker 1: money just appeared in my house and somebody just dropped

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Speaker 1: off a check.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: So I think we were kind of going, let's give

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Speaker 1: this a try. I mean, we kind of do have

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Speaker 1: another choice or option, like we're starting from scratch, and

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Speaker 1: so it was more like they're Korean.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's huge.

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Speaker 1: They're pastors, you know, church people. We already knew Joshua.

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Speaker 1: Really well, let's just give it a try. Red flags

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Speaker 1: was not in our dictionary at that time. It was

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Speaker 1: just like, we gotta do something, and this is the

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Speaker 1: only thing.

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Speaker 2: In front of us.

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Speaker 1: And then obviously you have the God sent me to you.

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Speaker 2: Bullshit, can you cuss in this place?

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Speaker 1: Like God I got from Joshua who happens to be

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Speaker 1: my brother in law as of today, Okay, I mean shit,

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Speaker 1: Like the story of Chicaina will never leave me.

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Speaker 2: You will never leave me. I wish I didn't know that.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of things a lot of people don't

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Speaker 1: know because this is such a big story.

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Speaker 4: When we return the conclusion of part one of our

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Speaker 4: conversation with Priscilla, this is forgive me for I have followed.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back.

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Speaker 4: Here's the conclusion of part one of our conversation with Priscilla.

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Speaker 3: Kind of transitioning a little bit. In the second part

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Speaker 3: of your journey, things took a bit of a darker

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Speaker 3: turn with emotional and physical abuse from church leaders. How

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Speaker 3: did their manipulation impact your sense of self worth or

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Speaker 3: did it?

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Speaker 1: So to give a full picture of the impact that

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Speaker 1: she kinda has had on me, we have to go

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Speaker 1: to day one.

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Speaker 2: We have to start with Catherine.

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Speaker 1: Because there's so much talk about the last five years

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Speaker 1: or seven years of Chkina history has been difficult for

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Speaker 1: me to kind of take people back twenty five years

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Speaker 1: to the start of why she kinda is the way

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Speaker 1: it is because the current leaders, Hannah Shirley, they are

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Speaker 1: the way they are in part because of Catherine. They're

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Speaker 1: mimicking what Catherine did. And you have to go back

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Speaker 1: to the abuse that Catherine started. So the best way

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Speaker 1: I can explain Catherine to you to then equate it

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Speaker 1: to Hannah and Shirley today. Do you guys know the

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Speaker 1: Cinderella Disney movie, right, Catherine is an evil stepmother and

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Speaker 1: every member of Chakaina was in some form Cinderella. She

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Speaker 1: likes to take things from you and let you know

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Speaker 1: she's the boss. And if you don't obey her, kiss

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Speaker 1: up to her, listen to her, and appease her, she

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Speaker 1: will immediately let you know by taking something from you,

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Speaker 1: or in public in front of other members, calling you

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Speaker 1: out and talk about your most intimate thing that has

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Speaker 1: happened that would share it at some point in your

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Speaker 1: mentorship with her. So when you look at Hannah and

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Speaker 1: Shirley their behavior now, and I know Khalia can probably

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Speaker 1: in hindsight look go like, you know what, you're right.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot of things they did. They were

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Speaker 1: just putting me down. And it's kind of like, for example,

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Speaker 1: where they will say, you know, if you take care

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Speaker 1: of yourself, you look so much better, but right now

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Speaker 1: you're really fat, you know. So it's like, Okay, what

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Speaker 1: are you trying to tell me here? You know, and

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Speaker 1: then say it in front of other girls. So you're

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Speaker 1: having like an intimate meeting and they're calling you out

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Speaker 1: and then the other girls are going, oh, Mentor, you're right, Mentor,

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Speaker 1: Mentor you care so much about her shit, let me

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Speaker 1: not say anything because I don't want this Mentor to

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Speaker 1: call me out, so you know, it becomes a survival

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Speaker 1: of the fittest. Yeah, and then you just kind of

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Speaker 1: start thinking, oh my god, maybe she has a disease.

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Speaker 1: That's why she can't seem to lose weight. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's a demon of her. Cause Catherine loved to say,

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Speaker 1: you have the Jezebel spirit. Wow, And she used to

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Speaker 1: say that to Shirley all the time. Looking now, I'm

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Speaker 1: going going, that's because you gave her to Robert. So

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Speaker 1: you see how like, you know, you give Shirley as

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Speaker 1: a young girl, and Shirley did not have a healthy past,

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Speaker 1: and no fault to her.

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Speaker 2: She didn't choose her parents.

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Speaker 1: She did not choose that her father died when she

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Speaker 1: was a baby. She didn't choose that her mom abandoned

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Speaker 1: her as a baby to marry another man. She did

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Speaker 1: not choose any of that, Okay, And it happens, and

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Speaker 1: you live a certain way when you have no parents.

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Speaker 1: And then they give Shirley at a very young age,

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Speaker 1: probably eighteen nineteen to Robert to you know, have like

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Speaker 1: some form of like intimacy. And then Catherine like just

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Speaker 1: calls her Jzabelle all the time, you know, And so

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Speaker 1: I'm not defending what Shirley is doing today, but this

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Speaker 1: is a perfect example of the foundation of the abused

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Speaker 1: women get in Chicaga. And it all started with Catherine.

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Speaker 1: And Catherine was like a mom to us. To me,

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Speaker 1: I loved her like a mom because I didn't have one.

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Speaker 4: You.

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Speaker 2: Now here comes a Korean lady just love bombing you

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Speaker 2: in the.

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Speaker 1: Beginning, and you're like, oh more, I need more, please.

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Speaker 1: But then it's almost like they know once you're hooked,

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Speaker 1: and that's when the tearing apart starts. And you know,

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Speaker 1: Hannah has always said, we need to go back to

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Speaker 1: the old days, right Klea. That's when the submission was strong,

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Speaker 1: obedience was strong.

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Speaker 2: And I always thought that.

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Speaker 1: Was weird because Robert kind of discredited her after she

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Speaker 1: left because he kind of had to to make himself

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Speaker 1: look like, it's not my fault.

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Speaker 2: She abused you guys, like she did it on her own.

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Speaker 1: So all of that creates who she kind of is today.

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Speaker 1: They aren't on auto mode and everything that happened to them,

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Speaker 1: they're like, it happened to me, it has to happen

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Speaker 1: to you. Because back then she kind of was godly.

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Speaker 1: Back then we had a revival. Back then, it was

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Speaker 1: the best days. So the fact that you're being given

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Speaker 1: a break today is grace. And guess what, you don't

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Speaker 1: deserve the grace. So let's just go back to the

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Speaker 1: old ways where I tear you apar. And it's so

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Speaker 1: sad to see abused women are the best abusers of

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Speaker 1: other women. It's so so sad, And that's why I

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Speaker 1: think I'm kind of making in my life's mission to

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Speaker 1: help people heal.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So we talked a lot about how the victims

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Speaker 3: can become perpetrators, and even as you're talking about someone

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Speaker 3: that was essentially an abuser of yours, you still can

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Speaker 3: speak about them in such a humanized way, and you're

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Speaker 3: so understanding that. I just appreciate the way that you

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Speaker 3: talked about Shirley in the sense that like she didn't

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Speaker 3: choose her parents, she didn't choose her upbringing, and she

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Speaker 3: is a victim. But that victim can also become a perpetrator.

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Speaker 3: But that trickle down effect coming from Catherine is really telling.

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Speaker 3: Because one of the dancers had expressed to us that

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Speaker 3: they had experienced abuse by some of the women in

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Speaker 3: the church and that they were kind of put in

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Speaker 3: the middle of this circle and just grilled for hours

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Speaker 3: and hours and hours and hours, and it's this new generation,

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Speaker 3: like you said, it's kind of echoing what was taught

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Speaker 3: from the original one point oh. One point oh yes,

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Speaker 3: But you know, we talk a lot about why the

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Speaker 3: urgency and it's through you and through the one point

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Speaker 3: oh stories, we've seen the progression and how bad it got,

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Speaker 3: and so even if it's like bad today, it could

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Speaker 3: only get worse because we only you know, some of

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Speaker 3: the dancers have expressed that they hadn't experienced as much

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Speaker 3: as you guys did, but that doesn't mean that they're

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Speaker 3: not going to. So I appreciate you and how you

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Speaker 3: speak about other victims, even if they have become perpetrators

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Speaker 3: that it is a trickle down effect. So again just

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Speaker 3: speaks to your strength. And why I feel like people

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Speaker 3: gravitate towards you is because you can very vulnerably say

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Speaker 3: all of those things.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you, you know.

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Speaker 1: And another thing that I've been wanting to say, and

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Speaker 1: it's just again for me when I'm doing my own videos.

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Speaker 2: I started a YouTube channel.

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Speaker 1: Now it is so difficult and I miss the times

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Speaker 1: when I was recording documentary, even though I know because

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Speaker 1: you're kind of putting a position where they do everything

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Speaker 1: for you and they press play and you could just

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Speaker 1: take your time, even if it takes five hours, which

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Speaker 1: it did, and then you don't have to see yourself

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Speaker 1: and somebody else edits you, and then the finished ronic

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Speaker 1: goles out versus like coming up with what to talk

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Speaker 1: about and then knowing you have to watch what you

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Speaker 1: just went through and then you have to edit that

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Speaker 1: and then you have to.

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Speaker 2: Like put it out right.

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Speaker 1: And so one thing that I want to say is

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Speaker 1: she kinda church foundation is a Korean church. Yes, it

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Speaker 1: was created by a man who was a fraud from

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Speaker 1: day one. It was very cultish from the beginning, and

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Speaker 1: that was his intention. But we are not an American

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Speaker 1: church where culturally is Korean. So the way that Hannah

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Speaker 1: has treated some of the dancers by berating them for

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Speaker 1: like over an hour in their face in front of public,

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Speaker 1: is very much how all the girls were treated in

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Speaker 1: the beginning of Chakaina, and it's very much a Korean

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Speaker 1: culture thing. Now, it doesn't mean all Koreans are.

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Speaker 2: Like this, you know. It's just that it's acceptable for

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Speaker 2: a person of.

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Speaker 1: Authority to berate you for your own good, you know,

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Speaker 1: And if anybody does any study in the Korean culture,

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Speaker 1: even today's day and age, women don't have a voice.

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Speaker 1: They don't have a say is you obey or you're out?

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Speaker 1: You know, And so I don't want to be extreme

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Speaker 1: on the other side, but Shakaina is foundational a Korean church,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I thank God for the dancers, as

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Speaker 1: much as it pains me knowing that more.

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Speaker 2: People came and had to suffer.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's like all the stars align if they're dancers, Americanized,

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Speaker 1: different cultures, young, outspoken, having their own opinions and knowing

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Speaker 1: that you're like, that's how it's supposed to be in

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Speaker 1: live didn't show up and be like wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: like something is off.

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Speaker 2: We'll follow you a little bit, but.

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Speaker 1: Something you know what I mean, And then families and

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Speaker 1: friends and all being like, hey, this is not right.

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Speaker 1: If it wasn't for them, I still say this, I

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Speaker 1: will still be in there, but I might never have

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Speaker 1: been alive because I was at the point of breaking.

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Speaker 2: Priscilla's journey doesn't stop there.

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Speaker 4: Come back next week for part two to hear more

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Speaker 4: from Priscilla as she further explores what we call Chicano

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Speaker 4: one point zero and what ultimately led her to leave

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Speaker 4: the church.

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Speaker 2: This is Forgive Me For I Have Followed.

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Speaker 4: Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a production from

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Speaker 4: wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tore podcast network,

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00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 4: hosted by me Kaleia Gray and me Jess Cosabetto Forgive

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00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,160
Speaker 4: Me For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron Burlson

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00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 4: and Sophie Spencer Zavos.

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Speaker 3: Our executive producers are Kalia Gray, myself, Walmer Balderama, Leo

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Speaker 3: Klem and Aaron Burlison at wv Sound.

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Speaker 4: This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original

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Speaker 4: music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts

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Speaker 4: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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Speaker 4: you listen to your favorite shows.

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Speaker 2: See you next week, See you next week,