1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: This next guest comes recommended by our friend Mike Lyons, 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: who we've been talking to for years about anything that 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: happens military wise. He said, you got to get Josh 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: Campbell on Josh Campbell's CNN Security correspondent, former FBI counter 5 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: terrorism agent, Navy veteran. It says, here, friend of the 6 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: Armstrong in Getty Show. For over fifteen years, you've been 7 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: a listener, Josh, Welcome to the show. How you doing? 8 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 2: I have Jack, It's a pleasure to be on listening 9 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 2: a long time. And if you indulgent me just a 10 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 2: quick story. I actually learned about the A and G show. 11 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 2: I was on a FBI team that was working overseas 12 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 2: counterterrorism cases. And it was actually a Navy seal who said, hey, 13 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,160 Speaker 2: you guys have to listen to the show. 14 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 3: And I'm in La, so I'm already a Californian. 15 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 2: But one story in particular, we were out on counter 16 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 2: terrorism mission and you know, you have your logistics. An 17 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 2: important part of that is how do you feed your crew? 18 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 2: And this defense contractor who's responsible for our food screwed 19 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 2: up and they basically had an entire case of hot 20 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 2: dogs as our food. And this just happened to coincide 21 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,639 Speaker 2: as we're sitting around the campfire listening to the travails 22 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 2: of positive Sean and his hot dog episode. So there 23 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 2: were we were, you know, listening eating our twentieth hot 24 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 2: dog of the week, thinking, man, we feel your pain. 25 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 3: Brother. 26 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: All right, that's what I paid our producer, Sean one 27 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: thousand bucks if he could eat seventy hot dogs in 28 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: a week, which you did, and I paid him a 29 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. So you're in LA. You're listening to us 30 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: then on KABC in Los Angeles, which we are proud 31 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: to be on. I was in LA the other night. 32 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: I was at LAX, and Lax had that feeling that 33 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: the airports have sometimes when security is ramped up a bit, 34 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: am I imagining that or not with the FBI say, 35 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: and all lights are blinking for terrorism attack and all 36 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: that sort of stuff. 37 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 2: No, you are, you know, since the attack by Hamas 38 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 2: on Israel, I mean we've seen that then reverberate across 39 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 2: the country. I was using across the world where you 40 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 2: have intelligence services, security services around the world now on 41 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 2: a high alert to include here in the United States. 42 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 2: You know, the FBI director recently said that you know, 43 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 2: anti Semitism. What the FBI is seeing is unlike anything 44 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 2: uh that it seems certainly in the modern era. 45 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: Uh. 46 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 2: And so you know, they are prepared for any type 47 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:12,519 Speaker 2: of attack. I mean, we know that there are different 48 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 2: types of terrorism. You have you know, cells and groups, 49 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 2: but a particular concern to the FBI is the so 50 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 2: called lone wolf and that's someone out there who you know, 51 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 2: is online, who's on the receiving end of all of this, 52 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 2: you know, vitriol and garbage and you know, all the 53 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 2: anti anti Semitism that we're seeing, who might opt to 54 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 2: actually act with violence. And so that's something certainly that 55 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 2: they're watching. 56 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, the lone wolf thing, which I know is is 57 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: a hard thing to stop for obvious reasons. And then 58 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: you get a porous border also. Uh so you know 59 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: a cell coming together doesn't seem like a big stretch. 60 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 3: No, you're right, I mean, that's I have to tell you. 61 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 2: I mean, that is one particular concern is you know, 62 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 2: obviously when you talk about people coming into the United 63 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 2: States who the government isn't able to keep tabs on, 64 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: I mean, that is a lucrative mode of entry, so 65 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 2: to speak. You know, if you're a terrorist group, wondering 66 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,239 Speaker 2: how you actually secrete people in the United States. That's 67 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 2: obviously one vector. I mean, go to the place where 68 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 2: you know, people aren't being screened, or if there is screening, 69 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 2: it's you know, it's very cursory. 70 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 3: And so you know that that's something interesting. 71 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 2: Obviously when we talk about immigration, I mean I don't 72 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 2: cover politics for CNN, but I cover security, and that 73 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 2: is certainly a concern. 74 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: You know. 75 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 2: Obviously, they're the the immigration laws that have been debated, 76 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 2: you know, for for years and years. But on the 77 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 2: security side of the House, law enforcement, the FBI, state police, 78 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 2: you know, along the border, they're certainly concerned that among 79 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 2: you know, people coming to the United States, it could 80 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 2: be people trying to cause ill intent and that's a 81 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 2: great vector to try to get someone in the United States. 82 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: So you talked about chatter and the and the FBI 83 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: Director Ray saying he hasn't seen all the lights flashing 84 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: like this since nine eleven. What other than posts on 85 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: Twitter and Facebook are you guys talking about when you 86 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: say you know, all the lights are blinking. 87 00:03:57,960 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 3: Well, I'll give you an example. 88 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 2: I mean, we've seen, you know, threats to Jewish institutions 89 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 2: here in the United States, both physical threats that have 90 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 2: manifested in vandalism and destruction, but also the online threats. 91 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 2: And just to give you an example, you know, I've 92 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 2: been reporting throughout this week. Over this past weekend, from 93 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 2: Saturday to Monday, there were over four hundred Jewish institutions 94 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 2: in the US that received bomb threats. And you can imagine, 95 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 2: you know, I've been speaking with Jewish leaders who say, 96 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 2: you know, they're going about their services, all of a sudden, 97 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 2: they receive a message saying that there is a incendiary 98 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 2: device in your institution that's going to go off. You 99 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 2: can imagine just the widespread chaos and fear and panic 100 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 2: that that would cause. And you know, you scale that 101 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 2: to over four hundred institutions, that's certainly something that law 102 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 2: enforcement is taking seriously. We're told that there are over 103 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 2: thirty FBI field offices in the US that are currently 104 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 2: investigating those threats. And you know, interestingly, as the FBI 105 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 2: conducted its investigation, they learned that this particular wave of threats, 106 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 2: the four hundred, were actually coming from overseas. And you know, 107 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 2: I talked with the Anti Defamation League. They actually have 108 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 2: their own threat watchers who are going onto the dark 109 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 2: web trying to find you know, these groups that are 110 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 2: that are talking about, you know, conducting these types of 111 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 2: threats in order to try to get that information to 112 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 2: law enforcement. 113 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 3: And they said that one of the. 114 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 2: Typical profiles that they're seeinger these groups are actually young gamers, 115 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 2: you know, people who are in these online gaming communities 116 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 2: who are you know, spewing hate and then you know, 117 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 2: get together and try to get attention and then go, 118 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 2: you know, do these types of digital threats in order 119 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 2: to try to see you know, the fear you know 120 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 2: that they that they'll cause, and you know, even more sinister. 121 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 2: I mean, a lot of these online services are streamed 122 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 2: online and so you know, these perpetrators can actually watch 123 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 2: in real time the chaos and fear, and so it's 124 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 2: certainly something that's very serious. It's it's a challenge for 125 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 2: law enforcement when you're talking about digital threats. 126 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 3: Obviously, the relative anonymity of the Internet makes that challenging. 127 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 2: That said, the FBI and local law enforcement has had 128 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 2: successes in recent months, including right here in southern California 129 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 2: and Orange County. Just last week, the FBI arrested a 130 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 2: juvenile who was making threats to Jewish institutions, to African 131 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 2: American churches, and they said that this juvenile was part 132 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 2: of an online ring of people who are calling in threats, 133 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 2: and so they have seen successes, but these cases certainly 134 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 2: very difficult. 135 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: I've got a friend who's in your line of work 136 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 1: to be vague and always talks about trying to figure 137 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: out if somebody is a keyboard warrior or an actual threat. 138 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: That's got to be the real difficult thing. I mean, 139 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: cause it's really easy to shoot your mouth off as 140 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: a gamer where your head set to your friends and 141 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 1: sound like a tough guy, and try to figure out 142 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: whether that person is, you know, just shooting their mouth 143 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 1: off or danger. How the heck do you ever figure 144 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: that out? 145 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 2: You know, it's difficult. I mean, in the security world, 146 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 2: you're looking for two things. You're looking for capability and intent. 147 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 2: You know, someone who has the actual capability to cause harm, 148 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 2: if they don't have the intent to do so, they're 149 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 2: obviously know less of a threat. Someone who has the 150 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 2: intent to kill people but isn't capable of doing so, 151 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 2: you know, that's obviously something that that could be mitigated. 152 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 2: But when you couple those together, someone who is dangerous 153 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 2: and has the ability to go out and cause destruction 154 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 2: or to hurt people. You know, that's something that's certainly 155 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 2: law enforcement is constantly trying to look for and chafing 156 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,239 Speaker 2: when you talk about you know, words and you know speaking. 157 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 2: I remember when I was in the FBI. I mean, 158 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 2: that was a constant challenge. Where do you reach that 159 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: threshold from someone who's just spouting off, you know, to 160 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 2: actually someone who's inciting inciting violence. And you know, I'm 161 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 2: not a lawyer like Joe almost with the law school, 162 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 2: but that was a constant challenge. You know what what 163 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 2: is it that gets you over that threshold? And it's certainly, 164 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 2: you know, very difficult. 165 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's funny. I got a lot of 166 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: questions for you, but I don't want to ask them 167 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: because I don't want you to answer them. I don't 168 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: make people any any ideas or or know that you're 169 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: onto them. One thing I think often when I'm at 170 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: airports and I see the security is I feel like 171 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: we're so focused on like airports are the only thing 172 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: you can attack it. The only way you can possibly 173 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: ever kill people is with a plane or at an airport. 174 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: When obviously, there are lots of options out there is 175 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: security amped up in a lot of other arenas that 176 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: we just don't see outside of flying. 177 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, there's the scene and the unseen. I 178 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 2: mean that security posture that you see at an airport, 179 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 2: for example. A lot of that is to serve as 180 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 2: a deterrent. You know, when you roll up to lax 181 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 2: and you see you know the airport police officers there 182 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,119 Speaker 2: who are doing their random checks. You know, they'll stop 183 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 2: every tenth or twelfth car or whatever it is. You know, 184 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 2: a lot of that is just to serve as a deterrent. Hey, 185 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 2: if you're intent on causing harm here, you may be 186 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 2: the person that gets caught up, you know, in this net. 187 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,959 Speaker 2: But there are a lot of you know, systems out there, 188 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 2: a lot of intelligence collection platforms that are used that 189 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:39,599 Speaker 2: tried to detect threats, and a lot of it, you know, 190 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 2: can be after the fact. I mean, I'll give you an 191 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 2: example of you know, here, there was a serial killer, 192 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 2: for example, here in Los Angeles in the last couple 193 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 2: of weeks, and this person was stopped by the Beverly 194 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 2: Hills Police Department because the department had installed license plate 195 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 2: scanners and so they had this technology that was in 196 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 2: place that wasn't a tent on signing any pot for 197 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 2: their person, but it helped after the fact because you know, 198 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 2: at one of the scenes of one of these killings, 199 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 2: they cops got a license plate, they entered it into 200 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 2: the system. The moment that guy popped driving through Beverly Hills, 201 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 2: they were able to go and capture him. But you know, 202 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 2: that's after the fact, right after the person's already done 203 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:19,439 Speaker 2: certain crimes, and. 204 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,719 Speaker 1: So we're up against a hard break. Josh and I 205 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: want to have time to say thank you very much 206 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: for coming on, and we would love to have you 207 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: on a lot more during this next year. Glad to 208 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: get to know you, and thanks for listening all these years. 209 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: Josh Campbell's CNN security correspondent. You're going to hear a 210 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: lot more from him in future episode.