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Speaker 1: Ridiculous crime. It's a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hi Zaren, Hello Elizabeth?

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Speaker 3: How are you today?

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Speaker 2: I'm doing well. How about you? You look like you're

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Speaker 2: doing well? Am I right? Is that a good read

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Speaker 2: on my part?

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Speaker 4: I am?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know it's ridiculous, I do tell me all right?

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Speaker 2: You know how hockey they allow fighting, yes, which I imagine

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Speaker 2: you're probably not a fan of.

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Speaker 3: It depends on my mood.

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Speaker 2: Oh really, okay, Well, are you familiar with the NHL's

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Speaker 2: Washington Capitals. No team, They're a hockey team, and so

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Speaker 2: they have minor league teams in hockey, just like in baseball.

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Speaker 2: The lowercase, Yes.

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Speaker 3: The Washington lowercase. Then see what I did?

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Speaker 2: I did. I was trying to let it.

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Speaker 3: Go sometimes sometimes I'm so funny and I don't even

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Speaker 3: know what to do about that.

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Speaker 2: So they're minor league team. Is the Hershey Bears? Yes,

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Speaker 2: so you think of it had like a chocolate thing

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Speaker 2: with the other anyway, So the Hershey Bears, they were

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Speaker 2: having a game. They just had to have the competition.

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Speaker 2: They let some people out on the ice, and uh,

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Speaker 2: I'll kind of skip ahead to point out that the

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Speaker 2: Bears had to afterwards release his statement that said quote,

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Speaker 2: this did not reflect the values of the sport or

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Speaker 2: the standards we expect when young athletes are on the ice.

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Speaker 2: So apparently a bunch of young athletes got into a

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Speaker 2: fight on the ice. And when I say young athletes, Elizabeth,

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Speaker 2: it was an eight and undersquad from Pennsylvania, no squad

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Speaker 2: scrimmage between the American Hockey League teams. And so while

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Speaker 2: these like eight and unders, the fight lasted for more

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Speaker 2: like basically about a minute long. And there's all these

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Speaker 2: clips because you know, everybody always records everything. Yeah, so

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Speaker 2: the people at the Giant Center, they could be heard cheering.

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Speaker 2: Particularly there was like this one the goalie he delivered

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Speaker 2: a hard hit to an opponent who was like, you know,

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Speaker 2: messing with his The crowds cheering under eight these kids

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Speaker 2: are under it. Oh no, the goalie comes out of

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Speaker 2: the box and just like levels another crowd or RUPs, right,

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Speaker 2: so they uh, And this is why the Bears team

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Speaker 2: had to release the statement that quote, this did not

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Speaker 2: reflect the values of the sport or the standards we expect.

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Speaker 2: I was like, wait, hockey, Yeah, you guys are all

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Speaker 2: about the fighting. And then they had to add to

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Speaker 2: that little like a qualifier when young athletes are apparently

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Speaker 2: if you shave, you can then somebody.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, oh my goodness.

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Speaker 2: So there you go. I thought that was kind of ridiculous.

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Speaker 3: That is ridiculous. Do you want to know what else

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Speaker 3: is ridiculous?

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Speaker 2: Please? I love ridiculous.

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Speaker 3: Keepsake, send curios. This is Ridiculous Crime A podcast about

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Speaker 3: absurd and outrageous capers. Heis and cons It's always ninety

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Speaker 3: nine percent murder free and one hundred percent ridiculous. Damn right,

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Speaker 3: I know, I am. You know that show Antiques Roadshow?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I love that show.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Just to just to clarify before we start chopping

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Speaker 3: it up about the show, let me explain what it

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Speaker 3: is for non PBS watchers. Okay, So Antiques Road Show

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Speaker 3: started as a British reality TV.

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Speaker 2: Show Oh really, of course, a.

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Speaker 3: BBC jam and in that one, antiques appraisers appraise antiques

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Speaker 3: brought in by local people all across the UK. They

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Speaker 3: would talk about provenance, history, the value of the items,

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Speaker 3: all those things. And it's actually started as a documentary

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Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy seven, oh wow, and then it became

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Speaker 3: this regular show in nineteen seventy nine.

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Speaker 2: We get more of that I want, I want one a.

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Speaker 3: Week and they all right, here you go. So nineteen

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Speaker 3: seventy nine is when that kicked off, and then there

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Speaker 3: are like subsequent inner national versions all throughout Europe, North America,

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Speaker 3: other countries, same format, So Roadshow was big. The British

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Speaker 3: version was big in the US on Public Broadcasting Service PBS, Yes,

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Speaker 3: public television stations. So they created their own American version,

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Speaker 3: same format, local antiques owners bring in their prize possessions

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Speaker 3: to be appraised by experts. The American version first aired

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Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety.

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Speaker 2: Seven thanks to viewers like me, thanks Aunt.

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Speaker 3: Darlene Shiley, and it has been nominated twenty two times

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Speaker 3: for the Primetime Emmys.

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Speaker 2: Really twenty two times times. That's crazy.

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Speaker 3: And so in the UK version they set up shop

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Speaker 3: at some like Grand Manor, and it feels like you

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Speaker 3: either get folks with very charming items that their families

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Speaker 3: had passed down and also rescued from the blitz, or

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Speaker 3: like super blase folks with very expensive art who should

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Speaker 3: know better than to go flaunting that stuff on TV. Oh,

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Speaker 3: I have some grace, don't be crass.

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Speaker 2: Oh I thought, you know they're making themselves marks for.

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Speaker 3: Like no, but it's just like you know, darn well

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Speaker 3: how much this is worth and what the story is

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Speaker 3: in it. You're just bragging on.

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Speaker 2: I misread cat. So they're basically like, can I have

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Speaker 2: an expert? Just kind of like shine me off on TV?

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Speaker 3: Precisely. Then we have the American version. There are great

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Speaker 3: segments where people bring in things that actually belong in

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Speaker 3: a museum, like they get listed as priceless.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I love when I see that.

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Speaker 3: A lot of Native American and Inuit pieces are like that,

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Speaker 3: or the good ones where people who think they have

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Speaker 3: a priceless artifact but they do not. They've been told

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Speaker 3: some lie by a family member about how it was

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Speaker 3: gifted to their great great grandma from a Chinese princess.

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Speaker 3: It was traveling through their town in North Dakota, and

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Speaker 3: the appraisers all actually it's circa nineteen eighty six from

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Speaker 3: the Bombay company at the local Westfield mall. Love that.

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Speaker 3: The best, though, are the ones where the person has

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Speaker 3: something that they like and they think it's interesting, but

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Speaker 3: they don't really know anything about it. Yeah, so maybe

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Speaker 3: they like bought a bought like an item that they

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Speaker 3: thought was cool at a garage sale three bucks, like

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Speaker 3: a bowl or something, or like a painting caught their

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Speaker 3: eye at a thrift store and they paid thirty bucks

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Speaker 3: for it, or it was their grandma's and they always

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Speaker 3: liked it, and then grandma passes away. They get it

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Speaker 3: always reminds them of her sits on the side table

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Speaker 3: in the living room. So they're just curious about how

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Speaker 3: old the thing is or like any background it might have.

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Speaker 2: It's like, tell me the story of this object.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're not looking to get rich. But then the

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Speaker 3: appraiser just like blows their mind and the thing is

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Speaker 3: where hundreds of thousands and they start to cry. Those

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Speaker 3: are my favorite.

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Speaker 2: I do love that. Those are good.

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Speaker 3: So do you watch antiques road show?

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Speaker 2: My sister loves all shows where there's like either bargains

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Speaker 2: or appraisals or anything like that. So she's like a

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Speaker 2: big like shopper and she likes to, like, you know,

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Speaker 2: she actually does really well. She finds things at places

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Speaker 2: like you know, antiques, like antique houses, is Good Wills wherever,

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Speaker 2: and she'll like be like, oh, this is because she

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Speaker 2: watches these shows. She knows a ton of different things

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Speaker 2: that are valuable. So shout out to my sister. I've

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Speaker 2: always impressed, like how much she knows about these things.

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Speaker 2: I dislike watching the human reactions, and then I like

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Speaker 2: watching the experts kind of glaze people off, like going,

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Speaker 2: oh man, this is really cool. It's actually beginning, they

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Speaker 2: tell him, like the school of artists who made it,

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Speaker 2: and then I learned something or else. I also like

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Speaker 2: it when it's like like some personal like shame where

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Speaker 2: it's like this is actually a slave made bracelet, so

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Speaker 2: your family was likely. Yeah, those are brutal. So I'm

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Speaker 2: a little dark.

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Speaker 3: And my the show when I was younger, we'd watch it.

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Speaker 3: My brother would start scanning around the house. Could I

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Speaker 3: take it? And we're just like, there's nothing of value here, trap,

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Speaker 3: there's absolutely nothing. You actually you caught me watching an

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Speaker 3: episode here at headquarters while I was eating my lunch

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Speaker 3: the other.

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Speaker 2: Yes, totally. When you slam shut your laptop like you,

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Speaker 2: I was waiting.

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Speaker 3: For the interns to finish changing my oil and I

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Speaker 3: was it was just killing time. Yeah, because they did.

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Speaker 3: There's an air filter change so on it. Because we

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Speaker 3: Americans can't seem to do anything without grift and fraud.

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Speaker 3: There's a reason. There's a reason I'm talking about the

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Speaker 3: American version of Antiques Roadshow today. There's crime. That's why

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Speaker 3: we're here. So I've got three American Antiques road Show

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Speaker 3: adjacent crimes for you today. Let's start with a couple

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Speaker 3: of Civil War appraisers, Russell Pritchard the third and George Juno.

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Speaker 3: So Pritchard, he's like, he's this third generation antiques dealer

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Speaker 3: from New Jersey, and he presents himself as an expert

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Speaker 3: in Americana, ethnographic objects, especially Native American artifacts, and his

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Speaker 3: family business background and he has like this polished demeanor.

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Speaker 3: They they helped him cultivate incredible credibility in the antiques trade.

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Speaker 2: It's a great place, so I imagine to establish that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, his dad, Russell Pritchard Junior, was the former director

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Speaker 3: of the Civil War Library and Museum in Philadelphia. Huh,

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Speaker 3: So he's got it's just in the family. So he

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Speaker 3: positions himself not only as doing you know, the Americana

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Speaker 3: and such, he becomes a military as specialist and appraiser.

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Speaker 3: By like the mid nineties, he was the co owner

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Speaker 3: of the American Ordnance Preservation Association AOPA.

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Speaker 2: Like the Canniball Finders.

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Speaker 3: I guess they're like Save the Cannibals, which was in

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Speaker 3: the quote business of dealing in and appraising eighteenth and

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Speaker 3: nineteenth century military items and also serving quote as a

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Speaker 3: consultant to various museums and libraries.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so you got spent call him right.

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Speaker 3: You're like, what's this? Gunde? Like, no, put it down.

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Speaker 3: So George Juneo he was an associate of Pritchard, and

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Speaker 3: he was not a recognized antiques authority, but instead he

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Speaker 3: just kind of worked with Pritchard in like acquiring and

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Speaker 3: reselling objects.

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Speaker 2: So he didn't know like a claymore from a clay

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Speaker 2: achm precisely.

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Speaker 3: So Pritchard's the expert, Juno's just like the facilitator got you.

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Speaker 3: In the late nineties early two thousand's, Antiques road Show

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Speaker 3: had established itself as this widely trusted public television program

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Speaker 3: and they would do these appraisal events all over the US.

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Speaker 3: Appraisers and guests were expected to disclose any conflicts of interest,

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Speaker 3: and the items that they brought for appraisal were assumed

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Speaker 3: to be owned by the person presenting them. Yes, that's

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Speaker 3: just part of the country. So Pritchard and Juno they

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Speaker 3: would purchase valuable antiques privately at relatively low prices, and

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Speaker 3: then they would present those same items on antiques road

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Speaker 3: show like they belonged to some clueless owner who had

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Speaker 3: recently discovered they.

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Speaker 2: Would have a shilling, and then they appraise.

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Speaker 3: So that the televised appraisal, well, it would totally spike

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Speaker 3: the object's perceived value and marketability. So to pull this off,

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Speaker 3: friends of Theirs appeared on camera as the quote owner,

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Speaker 3: and then Pritchard used his insider knowledge of the market

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Speaker 3: to select things that would be likely to receive high appraisals.

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Speaker 3: Here's the thing. The show wasn't told that the items

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Speaker 3: had already been purchased for resale and that the presenters

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Speaker 3: had this financial interest in the outcome of the appraisal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, of course not so.

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Speaker 3: In nineteen ninety six, Juno and Pritchard had this guy

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Speaker 3: named Steve come on and he brought a Civil War sword. Now,

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Speaker 3: behind the scenes, they told Steve what to say about

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Speaker 3: the sword, rehearsing it. Oh, they had to have he

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Speaker 3: was he was supposed to come out and tell them

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Speaker 3: that he used to cut watermelons with the sword when

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Speaker 3: he was a boy. And they're like, okay, you wild's

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Speaker 3: so so good and like all everyone can picture it,

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Speaker 3: and it's just so wholesome with a sword and like

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Speaker 3: you know, back when I was knee high to aggress.

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Speaker 2: How you want more watermelon?

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Speaker 3: Mo my arm? So Steve tells the story and everyone, oh,

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Speaker 3: they'll chuckle, but then they gasp when Prigard and Juno

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Speaker 3: revealed that the sword is actually worth a cool thirty

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Speaker 3: five thousand dollars. Steve, he's gobsmacked.

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Speaker 2: I bet acting.

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Speaker 3: So they didn't get any money out of this scam,

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Speaker 3: but it was used to lay the groundwork. So this

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Speaker 3: would get them more airtime on Antique's road show so

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Speaker 3: they could promote their business, American Ordnance Preservation Association.

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Speaker 2: They were just water yeah at this.

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Speaker 3: Point, Yeah, lay in the ground, where chum the waters.

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Speaker 3: So another incident involved a Navajo chief's blanket, which is

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Speaker 3: a highly prized category in terms of nineteenth century Native

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Speaker 3: American text.

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Speaker 2: Sure those patterns.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so Pritchard and Juno, Oh yeah, they bought the

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Speaker 3: blanket from its original owner for like five thousand dollars.

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Speaker 3: They didn't tell the seller that they were going to

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Speaker 3: use it for a televised appraisal, and so the blanket

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Speaker 3: is later presented on Antique's Roadshow as a newly discovered

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Speaker 3: family heirloom, like, look who we found in this chest?

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Speaker 3: Is what is this thing? So during the broadcast, Pritchard

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Speaker 3: is like, you know what, I would value it at

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Speaker 3: approximately three hundred and fifty thousand dollars. What he's like,

246
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Speaker 3: it is so rare, it's in perfect condition.

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Speaker 2: Purchase for five grand.

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Speaker 3: So the episode airs and it dramatically inflates the blanket's

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Speaker 3: perceived market value viewers. They have no idea that a

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Speaker 3: the presenters already own the item and that b this

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Speaker 3: appraisal is like directly benefiting them. So after the broadcast,

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Speaker 3: the blanket gets resold for this huge, huge profit, and

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Speaker 3: then it's directly tied to the credibility and the exposure

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Speaker 3: provided by the show. Of course, so they didn't do

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Speaker 3: this with just the blanket.

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Speaker 2: A bunch of like that.

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Speaker 3: Investigators later identified multiple items that followed the same trajectory

258
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Speaker 3: private purchase, deceptive on air presentation, profitable resale. So Juno

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Speaker 3: and Pritchard they did attract new customers with that watermelon

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Speaker 3: sword segment, and then they conned them all over again.

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Speaker 3: They convinced the descendants of Major Samuel Wilson, who was

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Speaker 3: a Civil War Army a Union Army officer, to sell

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Speaker 3: one of his swords. And they told the family that

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Speaker 3: they were acting on behalf of the Harrisburg National Civil

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Speaker 3: War Museum. Oh and the sword's worth eight grand and

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Speaker 3: would they accept this offer? So Juno and Pritchard, you know,

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Speaker 3: They're like, the sword will be on display at the

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Speaker 3: museum so that everyone can learn about your ani as

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Speaker 3: the Wilson family. They're like so honored. They're like, yes,

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Speaker 3: we agree to the deal. So they pay the eight

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Speaker 3: thousand for the sword. Then they turn around and they

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Speaker 3: sell it to a private collector for twenty grand. Nothing

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Speaker 3: to do with the museum. And there was an even

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Speaker 3: bigger scam run on the descendants of George E. Pickett.

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Speaker 3: He charged huh major general and the Confederate side.

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Speaker 2: During the Civil War Gettysburg.

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Speaker 3: He was one of the commanders at Pickett's charged, thus

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Speaker 3: the name a quote futile and bloody Confederate offensive. On

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Speaker 3: the third day of the Battle of Gettysburg.

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Speaker 2: Oh I watch ken Burns.

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Speaker 3: Yeah you do. So Juno and Pritchard, they set their

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Speaker 3: sights on George E. Pickett the fifth. Okay, so Picket

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Speaker 3: the fifth had a sword and other items that the

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Speaker 3: og George Pickett had, and then Juno and Pritchard they're like,

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Speaker 3: they look at all this stuff and they're like, this

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Speaker 3: is worth about eighty eight thousand dollars, and pick At

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Speaker 3: the Fifth's.

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Speaker 2: Like dang, okay, yeah, I bet he was.

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Speaker 3: So they buy it and then they turned around and

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Speaker 3: they sold it all for eight hundred and eighty thousand dollars.

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Speaker 2: Oh he dropped a dicil point so.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, put loopsy. So Piket sued them in nineteen ninety nine.

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Speaker 3: He got an eight hundred thousand dollars settlement from a jury. Good,

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Speaker 3: but their time in court was just beginning. Oh yeah.

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Speaker 3: Back Meanwhile, over at Antiques road Show, the suspicions are

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Speaker 3: rising because producers and outside experts are starting to notice

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Speaker 3: these inconsistencies, So items appearing on the show later get

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Speaker 3: traced to dealers rather than private owners. Similar objects resurfaced

299
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Speaker 3: on the antiques market just after broadcast, and they're marketed

300
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Speaker 3: with references to their road show appearance.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I was figuring out on TV.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, here's my favorite. The same individuals appeared repeatedly with

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Speaker 3: unusually significant objects.

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Speaker 2: They used the same show.

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Speaker 3: The biggest screw up.

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Speaker 2: They couldn't even come up.

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Speaker 3: With characters and costumes, do some wig stuff, like I

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Speaker 3: know these dudes are into wing stuff, make up fun

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00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,919
Speaker 3: names and backstories. I mean, look, they did it with

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Speaker 3: the watermelon. That's the best part of crime, the.

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Speaker 2: Character.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So PBS and the show's producers they begin an

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Speaker 3: internal review, and once the concerns were like solidified, they

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Speaker 3: turned everything over to the FEDS. Oh, and they're like,

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Speaker 3: you know, we're not going to handle this internally. You

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Speaker 3: do it. So the US Attorney's Office investigated, uh, these

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Speaker 3: two for wire fraud because it was involved in interstate

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Speaker 3: television broadcasting communications. Oh wow, so Juno and Prechers they

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Speaker 3: catch these federal charges, fake appraisals, wire fraud, federal mail.

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Speaker 3: All of this was beyond what they'd done on TV.

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Speaker 2: Like it.

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Speaker 3: It went so much further than that. So Juno cut

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Speaker 3: a deal for a reduced sentence. He testified against Pritchers.

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Speaker 2: I was just about to say, I know, they flipped

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Speaker 2: on each other.

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Speaker 3: And he got a six month sentence in a work

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Speaker 3: release program. Six months, and then he had to pay

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Speaker 3: thirty thousand dollars as a fine. Pritchard, different story. He

329
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,399
Speaker 3: got sentenced to one year for the military antiques fraud.

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Speaker 3: He had to pay that eight eight hundred and thirty

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Speaker 3: thousand dollars in restitution. PBS responded publicly, and they were

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Speaker 3: very decisive. They pulled those episodes that the guys were on.

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00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:29,040
Speaker 3: They tightened disclosure and conflict of interest rules, particularly around

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Speaker 3: the dealers and their intermediaries. They also started to really

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Speaker 3: emphasize that they don't authenticate ownership and they're relying on

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00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:42,160
Speaker 3: honest disclosure from participants, and so that trust had been violated,

337
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Speaker 3: but they want to remain trusting of the people participating.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know how you would have everybody when

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Speaker 2: you have him just showing up it basically an expo.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So Pritchard, he did his time, but

341
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Speaker 3: he didn't learn his lesson. He got pinched in Pennsylvania

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Speaker 3: on theft charges and he did time in the state prison.

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Speaker 3: That was in two thousand and eight. In two thousand

344
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,720
Speaker 3: and nine, he copped a guilty plead of more theft

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Speaker 3: charges as well as deceptive business practices, and for that

346
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,919
Speaker 3: he got another four to eight in state prison. Okay,

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Speaker 3: let's take a break.

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Speaker 2: They're not giving him enough time for him to learn

349
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Speaker 2: his lesson. He needs a longer time out.

350
00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,080
Speaker 3: Let's take our own time out and we come back

351
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Speaker 3: more antique antics.

352
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Speaker 4: Yeah, Zara's Elizabeth.

353
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,200
Speaker 3: Five six eight? Are you going to do your dance routine?

354
00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:51,640
Speaker 3: I already can't see it though.

355
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:53,960
Speaker 2: Share dancing over here so good. So I had you

356
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,679
Speaker 2: count down. I was like, I want you to come in.

357
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Speaker 3: I just realized no one can see us.

358
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Speaker 2: When I did the dip. Yours as to come in,

359
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:02,679
Speaker 2: just down on the ground.

360
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,760
Speaker 3: So we had that gruesome twosome of Russell Pritchard the

361
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,400
Speaker 3: Third and George Juneau. Now let's take a look, rather

362
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,480
Speaker 3: a double take at some identical twins.

363
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,280
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, Yes.

364
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:22,320
Speaker 3: Lee and Leslie Keino, Lee and Leslie Blonde, twin antiquarians, authors,

365
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,320
Speaker 3: TV personalities, and almost fronsters.

366
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,960
Speaker 2: I was about to ask if they were both like sisters,

367
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,879
Speaker 2: and you said they're identical. And I've made this mistake before.

368
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 2: If they're identical, then they're both going to be the same.

369
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:37,240
Speaker 2: They're not going to be fraternal. Where they just shared

370
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:37,960
Speaker 2: the uterus.

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00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,919
Speaker 3: You said something like that, Yeah, time, what happened.

372
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,760
Speaker 2: But I was like, you're like, how that works there?

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00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:50,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. So anyway, so Lee and Leslie's two dudes, and

374
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:52,600
Speaker 3: you would if you see a picture of them, you'll

375
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,520
Speaker 3: recognize them from if you've ever seen Anos road show,

376
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 3: because they're about it. So they describe their collecting impulse

377
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:05,800
Speaker 3: as starting with like basic scavenging. Okay, so well, no,

378
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,359
Speaker 3: you'll find out so okay, they had the National Endowment

379
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,560
Speaker 3: for the Humanities did this whole profile about them because

380
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,040
Speaker 3: they got the National Humanities metal well at one point.

381
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:17,639
Speaker 3: So they talked about how they grew up in upstate

382
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 3: New York and they rode this Suzuki trail bike around

383
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,680
Speaker 3: to explore ruined barns and houses. So they start out

384
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 3: collecting utilitarian architectural iron work from the late eighteenth century

385
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 3: early nineteenth century, like stuff like wrot iron door handles.

386
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,560
Speaker 2: Gotcha hinges and like fire pokers and things like that.

387
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so that early phase quickly became what they

388
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,879
Speaker 3: called training in the way that you know antiques people

389
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,160
Speaker 3: mean it. So they find an object, they chase down

390
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:51,119
Speaker 3: the maker, the date, the method. In that same National

391
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 3: Endowment for the Humanities account, Leslie talks about how they

392
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,879
Speaker 3: would research what they found look all this stuff up,

393
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,680
Speaker 3: trying to understand exactly how things were made and get

394
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 3: down to the mechanics of like a potter's leave. When

395
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,199
Speaker 3: they moved into stoneware collecting, so by the time they

396
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,920
Speaker 3: were in college, they were already operating like working dealers.

397
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:17,800
Speaker 3: They're real party animals. So there was this Hamilton College

398
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 3: news feature that came out in two thousand that talks

399
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 3: about them. The brothers. They sold most of their croc

400
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 3: collection to help pay for college.

401
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,159
Speaker 2: Like crockwear cooking, like country croc. I imagine they have

402
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 2: a crazy sweater game, these twos.

403
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, you had no idea and the three

404
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:34,200
Speaker 3: piece suits.

405
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:35,120
Speaker 2: Get out of town.

406
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 3: These are wild boys. Right, Let's sell our crocs and

407
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 3: then go to college. So Leslie went to Williams College

408
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 3: in Massachusetts. Lee went to Hamilton College in New York.

409
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,120
Speaker 3: So while they're in school, each of them cataloged their

410
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,800
Speaker 3: colleges antique furniture collection and they just so this was

411
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,360
Speaker 3: like the way that they educated themselves. Very practical object

412
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 3: by objects, and that's super close to how specialists get

413
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 3: trained in the trade. But they're doing it for themselves.

414
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're not apprenticing under somebody, right.

415
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 3: So Lee he served as a graduate fellow at Historic

416
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 3: Deerfield and then was a visiting scholar at this museum,

417
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:18,679
Speaker 3: and every place that he went was a key point

418
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,959
Speaker 3: for American decorative arts. So it put him inside all

419
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:26,199
Speaker 3: these collections, the connoisseurship of it all that kind of

420
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 3: feed the auction world. Leslie, he got out of Williams

421
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,639
Speaker 3: College with honors and American arts. So they have this

422
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 3: educational pedigree, but they also go and they work in

423
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 3: these places and gather real world experience. So they went

424
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 3: from college into auction housework, and they both specialize in

425
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 3: American furniture. There's this New York Magazine profile that talks

426
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 3: about how after they graduated, the twins moved in together

427
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 3: in Manhattan and they took jobs at competing auction houses.

428
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 3: So Leslie got a gig at Sotheby's. Lee wound up at.

429
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 2: Chris Oh like the the aug auction.

430
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 3: Houses, and so while they were working at these rival houses,

431
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 3: they sometimes found themselves going after the same stuff, and

432
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 3: so they had to avoid talking shop in order to

433
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 3: prevent conflicts.

434
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 2: Totally feels like the script of an eighties movie.

435
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 3: So Leslie and this happened in the eighties there and

436
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 3: so right there, Leslie, he hooked up at Sotheby's in

437
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 3: their American Furniture and Decorative Arts department as a cataloger.

438
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,640
Speaker 3: In nineteen eighty he becomes the director of the department

439
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty three.

440
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:33,360
Speaker 2: That's not bad, not bad at all.

441
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 3: And then you know he spent twenty six years overseeing

442
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 3: like the headline Americana sales at Setheby's.

443
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, like the big like, oh, this is on our catalog.

444
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 3: Yeah. And so Lee he worked as director of the

445
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 3: American Furniture department at Doyle Galleries and then went over

446
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 3: to Christie's for their American Furniture department. And then they

447
00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 3: have like Lee started Lee Keino American Antiques Auction. So

448
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 3: you know, they have like they are public facing authorities,

449
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 3: and they start making appearances on Antiques Road Show, and

450
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 3: the show's executive producer, Marsha Bemco told The New York

451
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 3: Times quote, our audience fell in love with them and

452
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 3: made them stars.

453
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 2: I mean, if the charming as they say they are,

454
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 2: they have like not to borrow the word too greedily,

455
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 2: but they have the provenance of what you would want

456
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 2: for the type of expert twins, I mean, just like

457
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 2: a great story, and.

458
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 3: So they're like the most influential figures in the American

459
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 3: antiques market at this point, and their opinions carry serious

460
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 3: weight and they can affect market value. So twenty sixteen, though,

461
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 3: things went a little sideways. New Orleans Auction Galleries had

462
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 3: an auction in April of that year, and the Keynots

463
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 3: did something unusual. They each apparently wanted the same Turkish

464
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 3: Angora carpet. Okay, so one of one of the twins

465
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 3: was bidding online and the other was on the phone,

466
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,199
Speaker 3: and there were a few opening bids, but then the

467
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,120
Speaker 3: brothers just like racked it up, back and forth, back

468
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 3: and forth. In all, they bid against each other about

469
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 3: fifty times, and everyone else dropped out. They kept going.

470
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 2: He was climbing higher and hire like two fighter pilots.

471
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 3: Well and the rug so the rocklig had a low

472
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 3: estimate of eight hundred dollars, Leslie snagged the winning bid

473
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 3: at fourteen five hundred. Well, they bid it up.

474
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 2: That's like me and a fantasy football auction, just just

475
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 2: going higher and higher for the wrong player. I want

476
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 2: Joe Burrow.

477
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 3: Damnit, here's the thing. He did not pay for it.

478
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 2: Why did he get according to that.

479
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 3: According to the auction house, this wasn't the first time

480
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 3: they'd done this. So Lee he bid two hundred and

481
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 3: fifty for an Italian painting that was supposed to go

482
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 3: for four hundred bucks. He also landed an antique bed

483
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 3: for sixteen hundred that had only been valued at around

484
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 3: three hundred and On both of these auctions, the brother

485
00:26:58,800 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 3: was the only other bidder.

486
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 2: Is this gonna be like a reveal where you tell

487
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 2: me there's actually not twin brothers. Is one guy who's

488
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 2: been pretending to the whole time working two jobs?

489
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 3: I wish, but no, Okay, I don't have that reveal.

490
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 3: So they're so they're they're bidding these up, but they're

491
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 3: not paying for it. Yeah, so I was paying time

492
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 3: for the auction house to lawyer up. They filed the lawsuit.

493
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 2: Wait when they don't pay, they just like they walk

494
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 2: out of the auction like, well.

495
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 3: They're not even there. They're online, they're like log off.

496
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 2: So it's like me at like a county auction where

497
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 2: they have cars for saying, when I make a bid

498
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 2: and I walk out of my grandfather who brought me there. Look,

499
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 2: look I don't have the money, and he's like, what

500
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 2: are you talking about? We got to go get it

501
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 2: in the car.

502
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 3: Sounds like it's from experience.

503
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 2: It is.

504
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 3: So the auction house they filed the lawsuit. They accused

505
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 3: the Twins of quote auction misconduct which resulted in unjustifiably

506
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,719
Speaker 3: higher purchase prices of auction items. So back at the

507
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 3: auction with the rug, the brothers bought two hundred and

508
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 3: forty four items in total, and they ran up a

509
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 3: bill for four.

510
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 2: Hundred thousands, say like half mil easy.

511
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 3: Didn't pay the bill and quote. We have never had

512
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 3: an unpaid invoice of this size, said Ashton Thomas, president

513
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 3: of the New Orleans auction House.

514
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 2: And these are like the faces of places. I mean,

515
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 2: these are the guys experts. Yes.

516
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 3: So there was this other auction house, Camelot Auctions in

517
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 3: Philadelphia where they bought eighty nine items. Bill was two

518
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 3: hundred thousand, and they skipped on that one too.

519
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 2: Are they compulsive bidding?

520
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 3: They get confronted and Leslie tells the New Orleans auction

521
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 3: House that that dual bidding was a mix up, just

522
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 3: like a silly misunderstanding.

523
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 2: I don't know, how the mass works on Like He's.

524
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 3: Like, we got excited and then we just got Yeah.

525
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 3: In an email to the auction house, this is what

526
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 3: Leslie said, quote. This was a situation where my brother

527
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 3: thought I was bidding on the lot and I thought

528
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 3: he was bidding on it. We made a mistake, and

529
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 3: I would hope that, given the amount of property we purchased,

530
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 3: you would forgive us for this mistake. And then, according

531
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 3: to the New York Times, quote, the auction house recorded

532
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 3: Leslie during the sale saying that he and his brother

533
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 3: were buying auction items quote together, according to its court papers.

534
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 3: So when The New York Times approached the twins for comment,

535
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 3: they were like, you, we're too busy for an interview.

536
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 3: I'm so sorry, But they're like, we'll send you an email. Quote.

537
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 3: They did not directly address why they had been willing

538
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 3: to pay escalated prices on some items, except to say,

539
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 3: as specialists in our business, we seek hidden treasures, and

540
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 3: as researchers, we search for unique provenas of every object. Wow,

541
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 3: what does that even? So why didn't they pay? I'm

542
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 3: so well, First things first, they didn't have the money.

543
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 3: So for most of us, that stops us trying to

544
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 3: buy things. Yes, you did, their lawyers said, quote it

545
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 3: was a temporary issue of liquidity, unprecedented for them, but

546
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 3: hardly unheard of in the auction business. So like translation,

547
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 3: all these folks are sketchy, yes, right, but that's something

548
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 3: we've talked about before. How like the art world and

549
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 3: art auctions are such a cover for money laundering and

550
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 3: shady business. That's not what I'm saying happened here.

551
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 2: No, it's not at all.

552
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 3: I'm just making an observation. So eventually the twins paid

553
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 3: part of the New Orleans tab. They paid seventy grand

554
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 3: on it, and then they settled with the place in Philly.

555
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 3: And then after a while they made the New Orleans

556
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 3: outfit hole. So everyone was taken care of, sure, And

557
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 3: they also told the New Orleans folks that they were

558
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 3: going to sell quote literally a national treasure end quote

559
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 3: of their own.

560
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 2: Why did they sound so much like influencers too?

561
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 3: I have no idea what it was, but I pray

562
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 3: it had something to do with Nicholas Cage. Were they

563
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 3: going to sell Nicholas Cage? Perhaps, unlike the other guys,

564
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 3: the keynot Twins, they didn't lose their spot on road show.

565
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 2: Road shows, you know how they say.

566
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 3: Turn about is fair play, or in the words of

567
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 3: Michael Scott, oh how the turntables turn? Well, that we've

568
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 3: got that here. So less than a decade later, Lee

569
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 3: Keino got a taste of his own medicine. He got

570
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 3: scammed at his auction house for north of one hundred

571
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 3: thousand dollars. He said, the buyer seemed legit. She won

572
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 3: bids that totaled five thousand to ten thousand dollars worth

573
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,959
Speaker 3: of items at a time, and she paid her bills.

574
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 3: So the buyer was this woman, Grace Lou. She then

575
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 3: upped her game. She went after a huge lot of

576
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 3: Asian furniture and decorative items. There was like a bronze

577
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 3: libation cup that had the handle looked like a beast

578
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 3: libeans a watercolor painting of a cat. And then this

579
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 3: carved dragon like a display cabinet with dragons all over.

580
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 3: So it kind of reminds me of when my friend,

581
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 3: the author Kim Wong Keltner, she went on a buying spree,

582
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 3: grabbing up all the Kingfisher pins and such that she

583
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 3: could find in order to keep them out of the

584
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 3: hands of white ladies. Well, like the pins were pieces

585
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 3: that were broken off of these enormous ornate headdresses for

586
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 3: sale to the West, and so they yeah, the feathers.

587
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 3: So there's these like really beautiful luminous sometimes irridescent blue feathers. Sure,

588
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 3: and they are inlaid into silver. And Kim took this personally.

589
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 3: And I used to love going with her to Anne's

590
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 3: tique shops and like little stores in Chinatown as she

591
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 3: sought out new pieces. It was like the most righteous

592
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 3: shopping spree.

593
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 2: Amazing cool.

594
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 3: So anyway, and she would tell the owner, I need

595
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 3: to make sure white ladies don't buy this. As I'm

596
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 3: standing there, I'm like, yeah, we don't, let.

597
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 2: Us, we must stop.

598
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 3: We up anyway, Chracelu. So she bought one hundred and

599
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 3: seventy eight four hundred and fifty dollars worth of stuff.

600
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 3: Keno let her walk off with it with the promise

601
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 3: to pay late. I I was wondering, And then he

602
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 3: later told the New York Post quote, I kicked myself

603
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 3: that I allowed it to happen. I've been in the

604
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 3: business my entire life. This is the first time that

605
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 3: this has happened. Is it the Is it so A

606
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 3: lawsuit filed by the auction house against Lou in Manhattan

607
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty one says that Lou took about forty

608
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 3: pieces in July of twenty twenty, paid forty five grand,

609
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 3: but then refused to hand over the balance of one

610
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 3: hundred and thirty three thousand dollars. Ok. She said she

611
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 3: tried to resell some of the items and was told

612
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 3: that they were like later copies, because.

613
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 2: Like, I'll pay a little less than twenty five percent

614
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 2: on this, how about that.

615
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 3: She's like, all right, let me get let me raise

616
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 3: some money some of the stuff I paid for. I'm

617
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 3: going to turn around and sell it. And people are like, no,

618
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 3: that's a reproduction. Yeah. And so then Keino's like, hold.

619
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 2: Up now, ma'am, I don't know what to believe now. Yeah.

620
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 3: So then he's like, these were not represented as antiques

621
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 3: from a particular period. This was just something that she assumed,

622
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 3: is what I suppose he's saying.

623
00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 2: So everyone's game and everything.

624
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 3: Everybody, and he's like, you know, she had the opportunity

625
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 3: to examine every single piece multiple times over a period

626
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 3: of weeks before she bought it. She wasn't done with

627
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 3: Keno she'd and another of his auctions in January of

628
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 3: twenty twenty two came back under a different name.

629
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 2: Oh goodness, and in.

630
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 3: This case she plucked up half the sale. So auction

631
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 3: house staff realized it was her and they told her like,

632
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 3: all right, you know what, you have to pay your

633
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 3: entire bill right now.

634
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 2: On the spot.

635
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 3: And they never heard from her again. Yeah, maybe she

636
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 3: just got excited. Lee.

637
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know how it goes, Lee.

638
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 3: So Keno. He went to The New York Post to

639
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 3: tell his story, he said, because she was like hitting

640
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 3: multiple auction houses in the area and he wanted everyone

641
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 3: on high alert.

642
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 2: Of course, that's what. Yeah, this was public information.

643
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 3: According to the Post quote, since twenty twenty, she has

644
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 3: been on more than two hundred and thirty thousand dollars

645
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 3: worth of treasures sold by various auction houses through the

646
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 3: Live Auctioneer's website and ever completed the transactions. Among those

647
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 3: she allegedly stiffed was David Killen, who runs an eponymous

648
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 3: auction house in Chelsea. He told the Post that Lou

649
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 3: was the winning bidder on about thirteen thousand dollars in

650
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 3: Asian objects a month ago and refused to pay for

651
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 3: the goods or pick them up. Winning an item at

652
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 3: auction is considered a legal agreement to buy it, he said.

653
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 3: Killen said they would lose value if placed up for

654
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,800
Speaker 3: auction again. Can we go back again to the Keno

655
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 3: brothers please, I mean, hello, it's a legal agreement to

656
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 3: buy it anyway. He goes on quote. People think, oh,

657
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 3: there must be something wrong with it because the person

658
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 3: who bought it never paid for it. He said, it

659
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 3: gets what we call in the business a bad smell

660
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 3: to it.

661
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 2: Oh, in the biz.

662
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 3: They call it a bad smell. So there's no right.

663
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 3: There's no word on whether anyone got lu to pay

664
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 3: for all of her one bids or whatever happened with

665
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 3: the lawsuit. But I think the twins and then plus

666
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 3: their older brother now does this too. I think they're

667
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 3: all still rocking the road show. Let's stop for some

668
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 3: ads from the good people at whatever product or services

669
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 3: has bought time from. iHeart we thank them, and when

670
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 3: we come back, Antiques Roadshow works for truth and justice,

671
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 3: zaren Yes, all right, so we've had people who used

672
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,879
Speaker 3: the venerated Antiques Roadshow to enrich their coffers, up their

673
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,879
Speaker 3: status for negative gain. But what about when Antiques Road

674
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 3: Show helps.

675
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 2: Out splitting watermelon?

676
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 3: What about when they let their goodness shine through?

677
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 2: Oh the show Antique Roadshow.

678
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 3: Saren, Have I got a story for you?

679
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:55,720
Speaker 2: Yes? I love stories.

680
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 3: Do you know what a Digerett type is?

681
00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 2: Yeah? The first photographs, right, So.

682
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 3: It's a tie of portrait photo developed in eighteen thirty

683
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 3: nine by the French chemist Louis de guerre Ye.

684
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 2: So creating the image, that's true.

685
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 3: Creating the image involves chemically preparing a polished silver plate,

686
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 3: and that makes it a photo. Yeah, makes it a

687
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 3: photo sensitive surface. The surface is exposed to light and

688
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 3: the subject and then developed with mercury vapor fixed with

689
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 3: the solution of hyposulfate of soda.

690
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 2: Nice. You can go mad as a hatter while you're

691
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 2: making a.

692
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 3: Photo, that's right. It makes those like moody evocative pictures

693
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:37,760
Speaker 3: that are incredibly fragile.

694
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also a little uneven because of the use

695
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 2: of the chemicals. You get those little dots on the

696
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 2: edges right.

697
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 3: Right, You have to keep them in like velvet lined cases.

698
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 2: You can't touch them.

699
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 3: Now, you can't touch them because they will smear the image.

700
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 3: Despite all that, they were an improvement over like the

701
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 3: earlier attempts at photos, and for a decade or so

702
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 3: it was the yeah, people love them. But then a

703
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 3: new process came along, a simpler, cheaper, more resilient photograph,

704
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 3: and just like that, de gerotypes were a thing of

705
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 3: the past with the oh yes. But that made them collectible.

706
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 3: To this day there they are in demand for like history,

707
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 3: photography and antique buffs. So they get de gerotypes on

708
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 3: Antique's road Show every now and then, and the guy

709
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 3: to get as you're appraiser for those is a fellow

710
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 3: named Wes Cowen. So Cowen. He's an anthropologist, he's an auctioneer,

711
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 3: he's an appraiser, and he knows deagerotypes. Nice Sally Guest.

712
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,959
Speaker 3: She lucked out when she went on Antiques Roach Guest

713
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 3: as a guest. Sally the guest. She's something of a

714
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 3: de gharatype expert, or at least like a collector. She

715
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 3: knows how to research them. She has a huge collection,

716
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 3: almost four hundred and fifty of them, and she's always

717
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 3: on the hunt for interesting ones. And she stumbled upon

718
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 3: one in particular and was really intrigued, so she bought it,

719
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 3: did a little research, had like a vague sense of

720
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 3: the subject of the portrait and the age, and that's

721
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 3: about it. So off she went to road show to

722
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 3: get some answers and show off her cool. Fine Saron,

723
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 3: close your eyes, eyes closed, I want you to picture it.

724
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 3: It's July of two thousand and four, Omaha, Nebraska. You've

725
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 3: brought with you to this crowded convention center a Neon

726
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 3: moosehead beer sign that you've found behind a dumpster about

727
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 3: twenty years ago. It still works. It hangs in your garage,

728
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 3: but you rarely plug it in and light it up.

729
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 3: You don't want to use up all the juice. You're

730
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 3: standing in line to get it appraised by the Americana

731
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:50,320
Speaker 3: and advertising specialist. People all around you chat and laugh

732
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 3: as they wait to see if what they've brought today

733
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 3: is some sort of lost treasure. In the meantime, you

734
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 3: watch as folks with fancy stuff get set up at

735
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 3: special table in the middle of the room and get

736
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 3: filmed for the actual show. You wonder if that will

737
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 3: happen to you. You just never know. You look over

738
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 3: and you see that blonde appraiser guy Lee Keino, giving

739
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,800
Speaker 3: a man all the details about the Chippendale desk he

740
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 3: brought with him. It looks fancy. You can't quite hear

741
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 3: what they're saying, but it's cool to watch them under

742
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 3: the stage lights. You move up a little in the line.

743
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 3: There's a guy with some old baseball memorabilia being interviewed

744
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 3: by the appraiser. He seems excited when the final value

745
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 3: is revealed. Man, this thrill is infectious. It's not even

746
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 3: your stuff, but you are beaming for the man. You

747
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 3: move up a little more in the line. You're usually

748
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,320
Speaker 3: pretty impatient standing in line, but this is just too interesting.

749
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 3: There's no way anyone could get bored here. You do

750
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 3: feel a little bad for some of the people who

751
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 3: are carrying around what is most certainly junk, but maybe

752
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 3: they're like you, they're just enjoying being here. What if

753
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,720
Speaker 3: the neon sign, though, is worth a couple thousand, you think,

754
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 3: man alive, that would be amazing the hall, someone drops

755
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 3: his ceramic vase. It shatters on the floor. In the

756
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 3: crowd gasps. That's a shame. One of the dangers of

757
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 3: bringing these treasures out of the house, especially with nervous,

758
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 3: sweaty hands. The line you're in snakes around, and you

759
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 3: find yourself right next to an on camera appraisal. You

760
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,280
Speaker 3: stand just outside of the camera shot, but you're close

761
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 3: enough this time to hear everything. A kind faced woman

762
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 3: in an embroidered T shirt and a short salt and

763
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 3: pepperish haircut sits across the table from a man in

764
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,240
Speaker 3: a pale gray suit. You recognize him as Wes Cowan.

765
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 3: He's always got cool civil war appraisals and stuff like that.

766
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 3: The man knows history and you respect that. In between them,

767
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 3: on a tiny lacquered wooden stand sits one of those

768
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:48,240
Speaker 3: old tiny photographs, the ones in grayscale civil war looking things.

769
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 3: The guy in the picture looks kind of familiar. The

770
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 3: lady said she was browsing in a quote antique slash

771
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,879
Speaker 3: junk shop in Walnut, Illinois, when this dagaratype caught her eye.

772
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 3: De Garati that's the name of those things, She says.

773
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 3: There was a stack of pictures in the shop, but

774
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 3: this was the most interesting one. She collects them, see,

775
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 3: and this one looks sort of special, and she thought

776
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:15,959
Speaker 3: she recognized the guy. Edgar Allan Poe, Poe, that's the guy.

777
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 3: She tells Collen that she paid ninety six dollars including

778
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 3: tax for the photo. That's a pretty penny, you think.

779
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,399
Speaker 3: But she's a collector, so she must know what it's worth.

780
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 3: You doubt she'd get scammed. She tells Collen that she's

781
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,439
Speaker 3: proud of it and has it on her mantelpiece at home,

782
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 3: even though, as she puts it, Poe Quote is not

783
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 3: the best looking man. Cowen confirms everything she says. Tells

784
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 3: her it's a Dagarrett type of Poe and that's pretty rare.

785
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,439
Speaker 3: He says, only six photographs of the guy were known

786
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 3: to exist. He tells her there's a little damage to

787
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 3: the face area, probably from someone wiping it with their finger.

788
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 3: The lady backs us up and talks about how delicate

789
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 3: these things are that you can't even blow on them.

790
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 2: Yikes.

791
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 3: Collen looks thoughtfully at the picture and then announces its

792
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 3: value at between thirty thousand and fifty thousand dollars conservatively.

793
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 3: Your jaw drops. The lady is overjoyed. I liked the

794
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,760
Speaker 3: picture anyway, but now I really like it, she says.

795
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 3: Cowan tells her that if this thing went to auction,

796
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 3: a ton of people would want to bid on it.

797
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 3: Great day in the morning, this is a fine You

798
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 3: feel so much joy for the woman. That's what this

799
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 3: show is all about. You finally make your way to

800
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 3: the appraisal table. The expert looks over your sign, plugs

801
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 3: it into confirm it still works, looks at the back

802
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 3: and the bottom. She hands it back to you and

803
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 3: tells you it's worth about three hundred dollars. You could cry,

804
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 3: this is amazing. I found it behind a dumpster, you

805
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 3: tell her excitedly. She smiles warmly at you. Isn't that

806
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 3: the best place to find a treasure, she responds. You

807
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 3: thank her, and then head out to your car, your

808
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 3: prized moosehead sign cradled in your arms. You are walking

809
00:43:54,520 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 3: on air. Thank you Antiques Roadshow, and thank you PBS.

810
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 3: So a cool story, but rather uneventful, as roadshow tales go. Right,

811
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:08,919
Speaker 3: possibly we're going to fast forward a year and a half,

812
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 3: Sally Guest, owner of the Dea gherettype, decides she wants

813
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 3: to sell it. Okay, cool, it's worth quite a bit,

814
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 3: and the estimate of value from Antique's Road Show just

815
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 3: wasn't enough. She needed to get it authenticated to prove

816
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,439
Speaker 3: up that it actually is Edgar Allan Poe since that's

817
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 3: where the value really is. So she reaches out to

818
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 3: the Edgar Allen Poe Society in Baltimore. She sends them

819
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 3: a copy of the de gerrettype. They reach out to

820
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 3: a specialist, This artist and historian named Michael J. Deese.

821
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 3: He wrote a book called The Portraits and de Garatt

822
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 3: Types of Edgar Allan Poe. Right, so I think we

823
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:51,439
Speaker 3: call that a special Yeah, So the Poet Society contacted

824
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,800
Speaker 3: Guest and told her that it looked like her de

825
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 3: garrettype was the real deal.

826
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 2: Oh, I thought was gonna be like, oh, it's actually

827
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 2: a photo of Robert Todd Lincoln.

828
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 3: But here's the thing. Though it looked familiar to dece

829
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 3: he actually recognized it pretty much immediately. And because there

830
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 3: weren't that many of these deguera types of po he

831
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 3: wrote the book on him. So, remember how there was

832
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 3: a smudge or a scratch on the face of the image.

833
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:21,839
Speaker 3: He'd seen that before. In fact, of the only of

834
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,479
Speaker 3: all likely there's only a handful of these existence, only

835
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 3: two had this slight flaw. And like he looked closely

836
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 3: closely at the copy and he's like, I've examined this

837
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 3: one before, back in nineteen eighty one. Whoa He handled

838
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 3: the real thing when he was doing research for his book,

839
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 3: and then it was at the hand In Booth Theater

840
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 3: Library in New York City, a private collection inside the

841
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:48,800
Speaker 3: Player's Theatrical Club. That's how they do it at the

842
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 3: Players Club, rubbing the toes on a mink rug as such,

843
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,839
Speaker 3: at least according to Rap and Forte in his hit

844
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 3: playas Club. Hold on, I'm being told that's a different

845
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 3: play as Club. Okay, So I'm glad we got that

846
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 3: cleared up. Their interns are just like waving and yeah

847
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:10,959
Speaker 3: and the thanks guys. So d'z called the library and

848
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 3: he asked about the DEA gherettype. Guess what theirs was missing? What? Yeah? So, meanwhile,

849
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 3: Guest had contacted Cowen to tell him that she wanted

850
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 3: to sell the de Garrett type and she wanted his

851
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 3: help with it, and he's like.

852
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure of course.

853
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 3: So he picks it up and takes it to his

854
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 3: auction house's office in Cincinnati. And it's around this time

855
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 3: that the episode actually airs, and that's when Cowen gets

856
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 3: another call, this time from the FBI. So special Agent

857
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,879
Speaker 3: Joanna Looney from the FBI's Manhattan office let him know

858
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 3: that the de Garrett type that he checked out for

859
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 3: guests on the show was stolen and it had obviously

860
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,760
Speaker 3: crossed a few state lines since being lifted. So Cowen,

861
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 3: he's a little rattled. He calls guest and he's like,

862
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 3: you know what, sit tight. The Feds are on the way.

863
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:03,240
Speaker 3: So that the special Agent David Bass of the FBI's

864
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 3: Midwest Art Crime.

865
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 2: Team Bassin looney, massive, looney, I know, are.

866
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 3: You kidding shows up at the office in Cincinnati and

867
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 3: he's like, I'm here to take custody of the da

868
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 3: Gett type. Give me po and what's crazy?

869
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 2: I love that if the guy who invents the detective book,

870
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 2: here's my favorite.

871
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,839
Speaker 3: Deeese hadn't contacted the FBI. What they The FBI saw

872
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 3: the episode and I d'd the Dea Garrett type as

873
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 3: the stolen one, which means it's someone's job at the

874
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 3: FBI to watch antiques road show and keep an eye

875
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 3: out for possibly hot kids. Oh wow, who knows if

876
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 3: they still have that position, but I would be very

877
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 3: good at it.

878
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 2: You don't think they're at at home watching it and

879
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 2: there all of a sudden, they just drop the remote, like.

880
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 3: Wait, I think that someone gets the episode. They just

881
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 3: start typing stuff in every time.

882
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,240
Speaker 2: Probably, I mean, I'm always blown away by how people

883
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 2: kept to do these jobs. Yeah, so I'm sure the

884
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 2: FBI has people. I mean, you hear about how the

885
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 2: CIA has people reading books.

886
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 3: And know exactly. So the FEDS wanted to get their

887
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 3: hands on the de Garrett type to like officially authenticate it.

888
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 3: But here's the thing. The DEA gherettype wasn't on display

889
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 3: at the library. It was in the archives, and the

890
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 3: last known sighting of it was when D's gave it

891
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 3: the once over for the research Library couldn't pin down

892
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 3: exactly when it was stolen stolen like this, So they're like,

893
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 3: we know it was stolen, but just in the last

894
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 3: thirty years, okay, because they're well, I guess twenty years.

895
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 3: Because there was no hard timeline for this theft, the

896
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 3: FEDS are like, well, we can't really file charges against anyone.

897
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 3: So they could prove that guests had indeed bought the

898
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 3: da Geat type at the shop in Iowa.

899
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:40,319
Speaker 2: Okay, so she's clear, So she's clean Oka.

900
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 3: And then it didn't look like the shop owners knew

901
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 3: that they were trafficking and stolen goods.

902
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 2: So they're doing like a reverse prove multice Falcon style.

903
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,359
Speaker 3: Yes, but the owners of the shop, they couldn't pin

904
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 3: down how they wound up with the photos. There's all

905
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:57,319
Speaker 3: these dead ends. Guests had to turn it over to

906
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 3: the library, and so she called it donation. But there

907
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:03,359
Speaker 3: wasn't a whole lot of choice in it for her.

908
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 3: And so while it was worth thirty to fifty thousand,

909
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 3: she'd paid less than one hundred for it. So she's

910
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 3: not like left, you know, in debt.

911
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 2: And she also does she get like a thirty thousand

912
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 2: dollars tax credit for the donation, I don't know, or

913
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 2: she get a three hundred dollars tax donation one hundred.

914
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:21,799
Speaker 3: She paid one hundred hundred, So yeah, I don't know.

915
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 3: But she was cool about the whole thing. I mean,

916
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 3: she's a little irritated, but she understood the situation. She said, quote,

917
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 3: I'm glad the piece is hopefully where it belongs, that

918
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 3: they will take care of it and that people will

919
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:37,800
Speaker 3: eventually get to see it. And so it was eventually authenticated.

920
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,879
Speaker 3: The FBI returned the Degherett type to the library in

921
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,439
Speaker 3: New York City on November eight, two thousand and five.

922
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 3: According to PBS, quote. Raymond Wemlinger, the library's curator, confirmed

923
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 3: that the Poe picture is once again back in the

924
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 3: library's possession and after an absence of many years, available

925
00:49:57,480 --> 00:49:59,800
Speaker 3: for viewing by qualified.

926
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 2: Researchers like bring your white gloves.

927
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, well it was so just just a few months

928
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 3: after that, the library put the Daguerat type up for

929
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:10,840
Speaker 3: auction at Sotheby's.

930
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 2: They sold it.

931
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:17,359
Speaker 3: They sold it winning bid one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Wow,

932
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 3: I'm guessing exactly got bills too. Sally is probably feeling

933
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 3: less charitable about the whole thing at this point. She's like,

934
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:26,399
Speaker 3: as long as it's in the museum. Oh no, it's

935
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 3: not so, Zara, what's your ridiculous takeaway?

936
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 2: I love these are all great stories, but I love

937
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 2: that the ground Post story at the end, with the

938
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 2: basically the guy who invents the detective novel, there is

939
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 2: a whole mystery about his photograph, which is the craziest

940
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 2: evidence they have. Like, because photographs, as you know, is

941
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 2: where we start to get the unreality. Between like eighteen

942
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 2: thirty nine, when you invent the photograph, essentially all art changes,

943
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 2: especially on painting and in particular, and you get you know,

944
00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 2: start getting abstracted and more expressionists and all that the

945
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 2: art no longer has to portray a scene, right, Yeah,

946
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 2: they're all for free. It's basically like what Einstein did

947
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 2: with like general relativity, where or like Freud did, we

948
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 2: all of a sudden like we don't know what to believe anymore,

949
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 2: you know, it's like, oh, everything becomes interpretive. So I

950
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 2: love that that somehow Poe is tied to that history

951
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:25,320
Speaker 2: is so beautiful. That's my ridiculous takeaway. You know what's yours?

952
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 3: Oh my takeaway? Well, I didn't know you were interested in.

953
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 2: I don't always ask, but I'm always in.

954
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 3: H my takeaway, I think that the appeal of antiques roadshow,

955
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 3: Like we talked about all the different kinds of appraisals

956
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 3: that happen on the show, but this notion of that

957
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:46,879
Speaker 3: you could stumble into something that is worth far more

958
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 3: than you would think. And you were talking about how

959
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 3: your sister can identify all these things like based on

960
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 3: much he's learned. And one of the things that I

961
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 3: learned is like never refinished furniture. Yes, so it'll look

962
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 3: all beat up and they're like, no, no, no, you

963
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 3: don't want to clean this thing. Yeah yeah, so it's

964
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:03,799
Speaker 3: like all these little things. And then why why that

965
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 3: is that you have to have the patina and the

966
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 3: and the look of age and such.

967
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 2: Let the accumulated age be there.

968
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 3: And I think for me, I sometimes I don't understand

969
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,359
Speaker 3: it's appealed to me because I am not someone who

970
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 3: saves anything.

971
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 2: That's why I don't clean anything, because one day these

972
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:18,799
Speaker 2: will all be antiques and they'll be really val.

973
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 3: You collect a lot of stuff. I don't collect stuff.

974
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 2: I have penny collections right now and trying desperately to

975
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 2: get a twenty twenty five penny so I can have.

976
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:28,719
Speaker 3: The last penny, all right, So if anyone out there

977
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 3: has a twenty twenty five.

978
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 2: Twenty twenty five penny to hard to get.

979
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:33,359
Speaker 3: Your collector guy?

980
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, fact so.

981
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,759
Speaker 3: But and I think, like, I'm not a collector, but

982
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:39,720
Speaker 3: I love watching the excitement.

983
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 2: What does it for you? Just the human moments?

984
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, And I think like sometimes it's when someone gets,

985
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:47,919
Speaker 3: you know, the wind taken out of their sails because

986
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 3: they think that they've got, you know, they know everything.

987
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:52,319
Speaker 3: But I really do love the moments where people are

988
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 3: just totally stunned and it's just I loved this bowl

989
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 3: and it you know, it's weird looking and it's crazy,

990
00:52:58,120 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 3: but I love it. And like you were saying too,

991
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 3: learning about the various schools of.

992
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 2: Art and yeah, because you're like maybe you have the

993
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 2: big story in your head. You're always adding different chapters too.

994
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 2: So when you learn about something like that, does that, like,

995
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:11,839
Speaker 2: you know, make you feel some kind of way really like, oh,

996
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 2: this is the Adirondack school.

997
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 3: Of other arrow for the quiver I got you. Yeah,

998
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 3: let's have a talk back to celebrate this.

999
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:22,400
Speaker 2: Cheers to that.

1000
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 4: Oh my god, I let cheat.

1001
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 5: So I learned recently that I can't listen to your

1002
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:42,319
Speaker 5: podcast while I'm working out because I start laughing too hard.

1003
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 5: The most recent time that this happened was when I

1004
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 5: was listening to the Johnny Cash episode and you were

1005
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 5: talking about Banana Winds and Elizabeth said this album will

1006
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:54,799
Speaker 5: knock the fruit out of your banana wins, and I

1007
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 5: started laughing so hard that I actually fell off of

1008
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 5: a pull up bark.

1009
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:06,720
Speaker 2: You is done.

1010
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, it's it for today. You can find

1011
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 3: us online at ridiculous Crime dot com. We're also at

1012
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,879
Speaker 3: Ridiculous Crime on both Bluesky and Instagram, and we're on

1013
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 3: YouTube at Ridiculous Crime pod, email us at Ridiculous Crime

1014
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 3: at gmail dot com, and then, most importantly, leave a

1015
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:36,640
Speaker 3: talkback on the free iHeart app reach out. Ridiculous Crime

1016
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 3: is hosted by Elizabeth Dutton and Zaren Burnett, produced and

1017
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 3: edited by Auctioneer to the Stars Dave Kusten, starring EMILYE.

1018
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 3: Rutger as Judith. Research is by Vintage hot Dog authenticator

1019
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:52,359
Speaker 3: Marissa Brown and basketball memorabilia specialist Jabari Davis. The theme

1020
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 3: song is by composers and performers of the Antiques Roadshow

1021
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 3: alternate theme song Thomas Lee and Travis Dutton. Post wardrobe

1022
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 3: is for by Botany five hundred guests. Hair and makeup

1023
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:06,840
Speaker 3: by a Sparkleshot and Mister Andre. Executive producers are Hopeful

1024
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:17,400
Speaker 3: Thrifter Ben Bolen and Garage Sale enthusiast Noel Brown. Ridicous

1025
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 3: Crime Say It One More Timequious Crime.

1026
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:26,360
Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio four More Podcasts

1027
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

1028
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.