1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:02,040 Speaker 1: The volume. 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 2: It's Jenkins and Jones presented by FanDuel. The NBA season 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 2: is kicking into gear, and there's no better place to 4 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 2: get in on the action than FanDuel. The app is safe, secure, 5 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 2: and easy to use. FanDuel as exclusive offers boost and 6 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 2: more all month long. 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We're excited 16 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 2: to welcome on our guests for this week's James and 17 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 2: Jones and Friends to Sean Reid of The Athletic. His 18 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 2: brilliant podcast Between the Lines of podcasts about race and 19 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 2: diversity in the NFL, just wrapped up on March seventh. 20 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 2: You can find that either in the Athletics football feed 21 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 2: or it now has its own feed wherever you get 22 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: your podcasts. I know Tyler and John and I have 23 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 2: all been listening to it and really enjoying it. To Shawan, 24 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 2: thanks so much for making time to come on the 25 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 2: show Man. 26 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: We appreciate you. Thanks for having me. I appreciate that. 27 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: On that promo right there. 28 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 3: We're professional. 29 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 2: Now we just get all the promo out, you know, 30 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 2: we bang it and then boom, we're done. 31 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 3: Now we could talk like human beings. 32 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, get to the shit now. Yeah. 33 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:45,839 Speaker 3: Yeah. 34 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 4: So to Sewan Man, first off, like bro, I just 35 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 4: want to congratulate and come in you on this project. 36 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 4: It's really fucking incredible. You mentioned you put eighteen months 37 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 4: of work into this, and like Bro, I just hope 38 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 4: you know you're taking some moments here and there to 39 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 4: just be proud of selling yourself for this, you know, saying, 40 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 4: give yourself some fats on the vet. But so you know, 41 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 4: it's it's such a thoroughly extensive project where you know, 42 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 4: you really dug into like the specifics and you know 43 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,119 Speaker 4: the details and the timeline and you know the minutia 44 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 4: of the NFL's you know, spotty history in regards to 45 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 4: diversity hiring. You were so detailing your reporting and your 46 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 4: storytelling here, and while you were like, you know, laser 47 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 4: focused on the NFL here, the project also feels like 48 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 4: while the the NFL is under the magnifying glass here, 49 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,519 Speaker 4: if you zoom out, it's so much bigger than the NFL. 50 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 3: It's like, and you know, allegory of the black. 51 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,519 Speaker 4: Experience in the corporate world, the black experience trying to 52 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 4: climb the socioeconomic ladder in this country. It's like, you know, 53 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 4: the NFL is what's being discussed on a micro level here, 54 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 4: but those are the issues that's being addressed on a 55 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,399 Speaker 4: macro level, and it was done exceptionally well. So I'm 56 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 4: just curious, you know, as to what motivated you from 57 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 4: a personal standpoint to take on such you know, an 58 00:02:57,760 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 4: expansive and such an important project. 59 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it's more of like a life story 60 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: for me. Like obviously anybody watching this on camera, I 61 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: can see I'm black, but I grew up in Ferguson, Missouri. 62 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: I have older parents, like my dad he just turned 63 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: seventy five, so he was born into Jim Crow grew 64 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: up in the civil rights movement, you know, grew up 65 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: in the projects in Saint Louis, his family with sharecroppers 66 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: from Arkansas, and so he had a lot of contexts 67 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: in terms of the ship that black people have been 68 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: through in this country. And then my mom, she grew 69 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: up in Arkansas in the sixties and seventies, and so 70 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: she had a very direct relationship with the South and 71 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: how things, you know, how to get down down there. 72 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: And so I already had that baseline, you know, context 73 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: for what being black in America could mean. You know, 74 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: not that that's everybody experience, but some of the ugly 75 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: side that was in the past and that that was 76 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: still going on. And so I always was very aware 77 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: of what it meant to look like me in this country. 78 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: But I will say that living in Ferguson, which is 79 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: about seventy percent black in the area, that I did like, 80 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: I never really noticed it to be an issue for 81 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: me personally because everybody around me was black, All my 82 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: friends were black, Most of the people I went to 83 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: school were black, and so like there weren't really there 84 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 1: wasn't racial tension. Like I didn't have like issues with 85 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: being ostracized because of how I looked, and so it 86 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 1: wasn't until twenty fourteen when I was getting ready to 87 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: go to college and Michael Brown got killed about two 88 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: weeks before I went to college, and like I didn't 89 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: know him personally, but like we went to the same 90 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: high school our freshman and sophomore years, so we had 91 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: a lot of mutual friends and kind of work kind 92 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: of spread quickly what was going on, and then kind 93 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 1: of just seeing you know, it wasn't the first time, 94 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 1: obviously that somebody black had been killed by police in 95 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:55,039 Speaker 1: the questionable circumstances in Saint Louis, but seeing the way 96 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,239 Speaker 1: that the community reacted in terms of the protests, seeing 97 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,119 Speaker 1: the way the police reacted in terms of the force 98 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: that they used, and then how that was covered on 99 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: a national scale. Again, this is you know, going into 100 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: college where I had already decided to go working in 101 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 1: journalism and pursue that at Maszoo, and so I saw 102 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: how the industry that I was about to go into 103 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: talked about people that looked like me, and so I 104 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: kind of made the decision then pretty early on that like, 105 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: you know, if I did make it to the point 106 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: where I had a journalism career that I wasn't going 107 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: to cover it how most people covered it at the time, 108 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: and what was sort of the origin of the Black 109 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: Lives Matter movement that's become very you know, corporate now 110 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: and kind of you know, trending now, and so like, 111 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: whether that was whatever league I covered, whether I stock 112 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: with sports or didn't like, race was always going to 113 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: be something that was part of my coverage and more specifically, 114 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: you know, the issues that black people face, and not 115 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: just issues but like our culture just the blackness in 116 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: general was always gonna be something that was a part 117 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: of what I do. And so just kind of the 118 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 1: natural progression, Like I've always written about race, whether that 119 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: was when I was covering Florida State football in my 120 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: first job with the Athletic in twenty eighteen and twenty 121 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: nineteen to being on the Raiders beat since twenty twenty, 122 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: and so it's always been a part of my work, 123 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,559 Speaker 1: and this was just sort of like the most fully 124 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: fledged version of that coming through and kind of a 125 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: new medium for me, you know, mostly a writer, but 126 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 1: this podcasting world, it's kind of a new space. And 127 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 1: then it gave me a new challenge to kind of 128 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: tell a familiar story but do it in a different way. 129 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 5: I was around thirty when Mike Brown died, you know 130 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 5: what I mean, Like having lived in Ferguson, like made 131 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 5: runs to that liquor store or trillion times that he 132 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 5: was at. You know what I mean, That quick trip 133 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 5: was a quick trip that I went to. I went 134 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 5: there even more than the liquor store, you know what 135 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 5: I mean. Like you talk about Mike Brown's death and 136 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 5: how it affected you, you know, I influenced you, you 137 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 5: know what I mean, But you were like born and 138 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 5: raised in Ferston, you know what I'm saying. With the 139 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 5: school with the man, like a lot of connections there, 140 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 5: Like how was that experience for you at eighteen? Like 141 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 5: I said, I was thirty, and I feel like there's 142 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 5: for me. There's more before Mike Brown and after Mike 143 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 5: Brown like that. I remember talking to Tyler. We would 144 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 5: joke about how hard you know, generation was trash, you 145 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 5: know what I mean. We didn't like we like I 146 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 5: think that woke us up, Like like you know, like 147 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 5: that woke us up. We approached like, oh we were 148 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 5: reminded that shit ain't sweet. We got there's a lot 149 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 5: of work to do and we need to we need 150 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 5: to be a part of that. You know what I'm saying, 151 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 5: And I remember the streets and like the city feeling 152 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 5: like like almost that street in particular felt foreign because 153 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 5: it felt like it was occupied. Like it felt like 154 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 5: red October, you know to me, you know what I'm saying, 155 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 5: Like did how did that? How did that feel to you? 156 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: I was confused, honestly, Like I just didn't think that 157 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: could still happen, Like in terms of the just the 158 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: really militant response that the police, you know, came with 159 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: to that protest, which is mostly peaceful. I know everybody 160 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: talks about the rioting and all that, but that was 161 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: later on initially, even when it was just completely peaceful, 162 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: they were still acting like that and tear gas and 163 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: you know, beating people up and all kinds of things 164 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: like that. And so like again like I had my 165 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: parents who had lived through that kind of stuff. But 166 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: I was like, Yo, that's that's forty years ago. There's 167 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: no way that can still happen now, right, Like I knew, 168 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: I ain't, you know, I had no illusions that like 169 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: racism was gone. Like but like for me, like in 170 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: my context at that point, suse, I'm eighteen, Like Barack 171 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: Obama was in office, like we got a black president, 172 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: Like this can't possibly something like this, this can't happen. So 173 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: when it did, I was just like in shock, I think, 174 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: and like it took a while for me to really 175 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: like accept like even throughout the once the I guess 176 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: it wasn't a trial, but the grand jury kind of 177 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: deliberation before they ultimately like said that they weren't going 178 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: to charge Darren Wilson. Like when that came down, I 179 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: was just like, I cannot believe that they're really gonna 180 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: let them get away with it, you know. And so 181 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: that for me was very eye opening in the sense 182 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: of like what America still was, and like, you know, 183 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 1: I also kind of got a kind of prepare me 184 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: for what was to come when I went to Missoo 185 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: because my it was very tense on campus because a 186 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: lot of black people at Miszoi are from Saint Louis, yep. 187 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: And so my sophomore year, shit just kind of started 188 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,959 Speaker 1: to pop off. Like there was like a white student 189 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: that carved like a swastika in a bathroom made out 190 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 1: of feces, Like there was like they were riding around 191 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 1: in hoods and pickup trucks and throwing bricks through dorms 192 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: where mostly black people who lived at and they knew 193 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 1: that they lived there. They were like coming up on 194 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: black women in downtown Columbia, Missouri and like ostracizing them. 195 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: And we had a black student body president at the 196 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: time who was gay, and they pulled up on him 197 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: and yelled all kind of slurs and things like that, 198 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: and so eventually it reached a bricking point and sort 199 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: of some of the these students kind of formed this 200 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: group on campus sort of pushing for formal acknowledgment and 201 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: formal change from the university because they really just kind 202 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: of disregarded it, and so like it kind of rapidly 203 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: evolved to the point where like the Missoo football team 204 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: was like, we're not going to play unless you know, 205 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: something changes, and then that's when everybody kind of descended again, 206 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: and like you got seeing n flying out and people 207 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: were protesting and in the quad, which we called it, 208 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 1: and like campus was like we were getting like bomb 209 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: threats and shooting threats on like get gag from like 210 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: people saying they're gonna come shoot up every N word 211 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: they see on campus. 212 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 6: Like like we had like a situation where like we 213 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 6: had to go to the Black Coaches Center on campus, 214 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 6: and like people were so scared that they didn't want 215 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 6: to go to class that we would send a group 216 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 6: of like ten to fifteen black people to walk people 217 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 6: to class and then go get them after their class 218 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 6: and walk them back. 219 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: So it was like I went from Ferguson to basically 220 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: Ferguson at my college, and then Trump got elected and 221 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: everything that came with that. So for me, it was 222 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: just like, oh, like this is this is like a 223 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: crash course of just like all this stuff coming at 224 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: me at a very young age while I'm like trying 225 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: to figure out what i want to do with my 226 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: career and like everything like that. And so I think 227 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: just having that that influx really shapes, you know, what 228 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: type of journalists I ended up becoming once I got 229 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: started in this business. 230 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 7: I wanted to I wanted to ask you a little 231 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 7: bit about I got a question about that, But I 232 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 7: just I just wondered how your parents reacted to it, 233 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 7: because like I remember like being there in the city 234 00:10:57,960 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 7: and like my like a lot of people were like, 235 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 7: don't go out, Like a lot of the older people 236 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 7: who had fought. 237 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,959 Speaker 5: Through it, like don't stay inside, stay inside, you know 238 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 5: what I mean, and you were active hours, active out there. 239 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 5: Like what was it? What was that experience like with 240 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:12,599 Speaker 5: with your parents and like the elders, you know what 241 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 5: I'm saying that you know, just one of the best 242 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 5: for you. 243 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, So, like my I kind of had a unique 244 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: experience with that because my dad he he was retired 245 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: by then, but growing up, like his main job was 246 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: he was like a CEO at the County jail downtown 247 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: by not downtown in Clayton, and so like he knew 248 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: like like he knew from his life experience, but also 249 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: like he knew the ins and out specifically of how 250 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: the Saint Louis Police Department operated and how they handled 251 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: things like this, and so it was like a hard 252 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: stop with him, like, nah, don't go down there at night, 253 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 1: Like if you're gonna do something, get the hell out 254 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 1: of there before sun goes down. And that's it's kind 255 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: of ironic because like when my dad was my age, 256 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 1: Ferguson was a sun downtown and so there were like 257 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: some parallels there. So for him, I'm sure he just 258 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 1: had it was a fear because he was like I mean, 259 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:03,959 Speaker 1: like I said, Michael Brown was my age went to 260 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: the same high school. We were both you know, graduates 261 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: that same year. For him, it's like that's not happening 262 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: to my son, and same thing with my mom, and 263 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: so like they just wanted to make sure that, like 264 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: I didn't put myself in a situation, cause like I'm 265 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: not like a super confrontational person, but like once I 266 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: get there, I get there, and so I can say 267 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: some things and maybe do some things that I shouldn't, 268 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: especially at that age when I was eighteen nineteen, like 269 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: you know, just naturally more like you don't think too much. 270 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: And so they were very like protective and kind of 271 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: concerned and worried about it. Obviously I'm all right, but 272 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:41,959 Speaker 1: you know, that was something that I definitely heard, not 273 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: just them, but also I have four siblings and they're 274 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: all older. I'm the youngest, My youngest sibling outside of 275 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: me a thirty eight, and so they all were also 276 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: very protective and making sure that because I was really 277 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,079 Speaker 1: the only one of us that like was born and 278 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: raised in first like all of all the other ones 279 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: had like bounced around living different places, but like that 280 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 1: was my home, so like they knew that I had 281 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: like a different level of connection to what was going on, 282 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 1: and so it was it was very much like a thing, 283 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: not that it was about me, like obviously it was 284 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: much bigger than me, but like my family was very 285 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: intentional about like making sure my head was on straight 286 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: with that old thing. 287 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 3: I'm just curious about. 288 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 2: You're talking about your life experiences growing up, and I 289 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 2: think for you know a long time, especially in sports, 290 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:27,199 Speaker 2: but in all journalism, there was this idea that it 291 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 2: was like becoming a priest or something, right, like, Okay, 292 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 2: this was your life up until this point, and then 293 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 2: now you're a journalist. You're going to take off your ethnicity, 294 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 2: You're going to take off your how you grew up socioeconomically, 295 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 2: and now you are like an objective like circle of 296 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 2: light or something, right that like is just processing news 297 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 2: and reporting it back out and your generation and I 298 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,959 Speaker 2: know you went through the Sports Journalism Institute, I believe, right, Yeah, 299 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 2: And I mean everyone I've worked with, we've we've been 300 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 2: lucky enough to hire graduates that student, I mean, really 301 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 2: a strong thing across everyone I've worked with who came 302 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 2: out of there, is your generation is really starting to 303 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 2: turn around that incredibly idiotic idea of like putting aside 304 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 2: who you are as a person in order to do 305 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:18,719 Speaker 2: the job of reporting, right, is that something like that's it? 306 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 2: And that's a This is really more of a question, 307 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 2: I guess for the end of your career, not at 308 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 2: the beginning of it. But is that something you take 309 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 2: pride in and are conscious of that like you and 310 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 2: your generation are sort of starting. 311 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 3: To make that really really big change for us as 312 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 3: a as a country. 313 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I mean I went to the Missouri 314 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: School of Journalism, so it doesn't get too much more 315 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: about a book than that for people that aren't familiar 316 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: familiar with it. But so there was I mean, during 317 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: that time when the protests started my sophomore year, they 318 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: were very intentional about telling my jermales with students like 319 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: don't participate, like stay objective, don't post anything on social media, 320 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: and you know, I was like, fuck, my thing is 321 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: like the first thing I was in this world was black, 322 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: and so that's why be what I die, Like that's 323 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: gonna be in this whole way through and so I'm 324 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: not putting that to decide for anything, let alone in 325 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: my career. And so I made that decision early on, 326 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: and like you know, I mean at the time I 327 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: was a student, So it wasn't like, you know, I 328 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: was making some bold proclamation or something like we don't 329 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: You don't even formally get into the j school until 330 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: your junior year. But when I did get into it 331 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: the year coming off coming off of all that stuff 332 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: my sophomore year, I was like, Yo, this is just 333 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: how I'm operating. So if you don't like it, I 334 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: don't really care, Like this is how it's going to be. 335 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: And so like even like my first internship, like it 336 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: was working for the Saint Louis Americans, which is a 337 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: magazine in Saint Louis. It wasn't sports related at all, 338 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: and I'm writing all these like criminal justice reform and 339 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: like these like you know, foundations, and I was not 340 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: at all like really like I did my my sports 341 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: journalism class and stuff like that, but I was kind 342 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: of like getting on like another track almost until I 343 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: kind of like zone back in when I did start 344 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: presuming pursuing things with the Sports Journalism Institute my senior 345 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: year I got into I went through that program after 346 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: I graduated that summer, That's when I really started like, 347 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: all right, I still want to do sports's hone in 348 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: on this and really lock in. But like I said earlier, 349 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: like that was still something like always in the back 350 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: of my mind. It's like I'm still going to work 351 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: this into my coverage. Obviously you can't force it, like 352 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: and like when it's not there and like try to 353 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: make it something that it's not, like I don't believe 354 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: in that. But when the situations do arise, which they will, 355 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: because you know, races cannot be separated from journalism or 356 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: sports or anything in this country because of the history 357 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: of this country, which you know, as much as people 358 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: want to forget it, like, it's very tangible and still 359 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: felt today. And so that's you know, luckily having that 360 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: having Sji, which you know kind of gave me that 361 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: foundation of a lot of black and people black journalists 362 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: and people of color and women and people that are 363 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: you know, from these marginalized groups, gave me more comfort 364 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: and that being my approach. And so like even my 365 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: first job covering Florida, say football, like that was when 366 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,439 Speaker 1: Willie Taggert was there and he got fired his second season. 367 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 1: He was terrible, don't get me wrong, like they were awful, 368 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 1: they broke their bull street, but he got fired and 369 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: I believe it was twenty one games, and like this 370 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: is when the Homeboy in Nebraska they used to play 371 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 1: there was still employed and a bunch of other terrible coaches, 372 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: and like like towards the end, we was about to 373 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: get fired. Like somebody posted on Facebook, like this photoshop 374 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 1: picture of him, like his face on a lynching victim, 375 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 1: and like there was just a certain side of it 376 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 1: that people just didn't seem to want to talk about. 377 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 1: And like I'm at this time, I'm twenty three, I 378 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: think twenty two to twenty three, the only black person 379 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 1: really that was on the beat of some prominence. And 380 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: so I was like, I'm gonna talk about this, and 381 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: like if y'all get mad at me, so what and so. 382 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 1: And then that kind of carried over to the summer 383 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty when I started on the Raiders beating 384 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, and obviously everybody knows what happens then, and 385 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: so I wrote about race pretty candidly for The Athletic 386 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: and told some of my life experience. And then twenty 387 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: twenty one, when John Gruden popped out as like the 388 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: greatest bigot of all time, like I was, you know, 389 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,679 Speaker 1: critiquing him for doing that, and Mark Davis after the 390 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 1: George Floyd verdict, he like tweeted out, I can breathe, 391 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 1: and I wrote that he was wilding out for that, 392 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: and like, so it's it's been something that it's it's 393 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: just always been a part of my career and it's 394 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: been very attentional and I don't and even outside of 395 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 1: my work, like on social media, like I'm very open 396 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: about discussing what I think about many things, but also race, 397 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: and that's never that's never going to change. And so 398 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:39,719 Speaker 1: if a company wants me to, I'm just not going 399 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: to work there, and I'm fine with making that decision. 400 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 4: Real one, you know, I mentioned how detailed and how comprehensive, 401 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 4: you know, all the research that you put into this 402 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 4: project was, and you know, there was a lot that 403 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 4: I learned here. There are a lot of you know, 404 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 4: eye openers, you know for me listening to this, and 405 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 4: one was, you know, I realized that I was not 406 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 4: all the way completely familiar with the origin of the 407 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,360 Speaker 4: Rooney rule, right Like I wasn't of course, I wasn't 408 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,120 Speaker 4: naive enough to think that the NFL did that shit 409 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 4: out of the goodness of their own heart, you know, 410 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 4: I just always kind of thought that there are probably 411 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 4: grumblings from you know, within the NFL workforce, but you know, 412 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 4: you went into the history about how there was an 413 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 4: outside group that did some independent research and had Johnny 414 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 4: cochran is lead counsel. So the NFL decided to get 415 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 4: ahead that shit because they knew a lawsuit was coming, right, So, 416 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 4: you know, that was an eye opener for me. 417 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: I wasn't. 418 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 4: I wasn't quite aware of the specifics of that. So 419 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 4: I'm wondering, like, you know, during all the research that 420 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 4: you've done, you know, on this project, you know what 421 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 4: was like the biggest eye opener for you. 422 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 1: I think for me it was it wasn't like one 423 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 1: individual thing. It's just as I reported it out, Like 424 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: I just became more aware of, like just how comprehensive 425 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: the issue is in terms of the NFL's race problem. 426 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 1: Like we always point towards the owners for the lack 427 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 1: of black head coaches, which they are obviously very capable 428 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 1: culpable for that being an issue. But it's like it's 429 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: kind of it's kind of corny, but it's like it's 430 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: only everybody really, Like it's the players, you know, because 431 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:00,880 Speaker 1: of the way that they even pressed. They don't feel 432 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 1: comfortable using their their leverage and their power like a 433 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: Colin Kaepernick did to try to push for change like 434 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 1: that doesn't really happen that much even now amongst the 435 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 1: coaching ranks. Once we do have black head coaches that 436 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 1: get in some spots, a lot of times they don't 437 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,719 Speaker 1: hire black coordinators or black quarterback coaches or promote them 438 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: to positions that lead to head coaching jobs. Black gms 439 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: a lot of times they hire white head coaches and 440 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: promote white people throughout their their support staff. Obviously, you 441 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: know owners are ain't no black people there, but the owners 442 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: you know, we all don't know what their issue is 443 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 1: in terms of this and why they behave that way. 444 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: And then me as media like ain't that many black 445 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: reporters out here either, which I don't know if people, 446 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:47,719 Speaker 1: you know, keep that in mind all the time. And 447 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: you know a lot of these publications. It's starting to 448 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: change now with like the summer twenty twenty, Like I said, 449 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: it's going to be trending now, But historically it's something that 450 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: you didn't really cover because of that old objective mindset 451 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: like oh, that's politics, it's gonna make us lose our 452 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: readership and all that kind of shit. And so like 453 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: it's on us too to make sure it's a constant 454 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 1: conversation and not just something that we talk about during 455 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: Black History Month, during those glorious twenty eight days, and 456 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: you know, when when the hiring cycle is up, or 457 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: there there's a lawsuit from Brian Flores or like there's 458 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 1: something or Colin Kaefern that happens, Like it can't you 459 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: can't just talk about it when it's a flashpoint moment 460 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: that's gonna get you a lot of clicks. It's gotta 461 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: be something that you talk about year round, like you know, 462 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: because it's a year round thing, it's every Unfortunately it's 463 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,360 Speaker 1: something that's always the case, and so it takes it's 464 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: gonna take all of that plus probably external pressure like lawsuits, 465 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: the threat of lawsuits, or sponsorship dollars being potentially stripped away. 466 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: Like you know, the best example that's probably what we 467 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: saw with the Washington football team, you know, with them 468 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: changing their team name. That was because the sponsorship dollars. 469 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,439 Speaker 1: So it's gonna be something like there is no like quick, 470 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 1: one size fits all solution for this. It's not gonna 471 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: it's gonna take a lot of time, and it's unless 472 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 1: it's a comprehensive effort from everybody, it's just never gonna change. 473 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: And again, it's not an NFL exclusive thing, Like that's America, 474 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 1: Like this is what this country was built on, like 475 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: as much as people want to run from it, like 476 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: it's a racist country and it's built on systemic racism 477 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: and slavery, instilling people's land that wasn't theirs, and like 478 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: that is in our infrastructure. It always has been and 479 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 1: that's how I was designed. And so changing that isn't easy. 480 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: Obviously it's been in place for hundreds of years. But 481 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: the only way to do so is a collective effort 482 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: and searge that's constant and doesn't waiver, because if it waivers, 483 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: then you get all that shit starts to strip back, 484 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: and it starts to revert, and then you get in 485 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: that cycle that never really ends. And so that's what I, like, 486 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: I kind of already knew that, but I just analyt 487 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 1: because every episode, like episode one is kind of the 488 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,239 Speaker 1: historic context, and episode two is the players, episode three 489 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: as the coaches, episode four as executives, and episode five 490 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 1: is sort of taking a look at everything comprehensively, and 491 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: so like getting into the granular details of how race 492 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 1: impacts things at every level just gave me a greater 493 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: appreciation for like how much shit actually needs to be 494 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: improved and done for there to be sustained change, not 495 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,160 Speaker 1: just these these brief glimpses of hope. You know, when 496 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: we get like an O seven after Tony Dungee and 497 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: Lovey Smith faced off in the Super Bowl, we have 498 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: seven black head coaches or right now I think we 499 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: have five black gms, or no, we have eight black 500 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: gms and five black team presidents. But would that be sustained? 501 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: Like you know, no, it's not unless you know those 502 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 1: things that I mentioned change. And so I think that 503 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 1: was really my biggest takeaway from this project throughout my 504 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 1: all my time working on it. And that's that's really 505 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: kind of what I landed on in episode five at 506 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: the end where I kind of gave them a monologue, 507 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: just kind of give them my thoughts on everything for. 508 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 4: Sure, and if we if we could stay on the 509 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 4: ruin roof for just a second more. You know, I'm 510 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 4: curious on your thoughts off it. You know, I know 511 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 4: it's easy to get delusion with it given its underwhelming results, 512 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 4: But I personally think it's still very much needed for 513 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 4: a number of reasons. And you know, I'll get into 514 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 4: my reason why I feel that way, but I'm curious 515 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 4: to hear on you know where you stand first. 516 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, like the premise of it is cool. 517 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: It's just it doesn't have any actual backbone. Like if 518 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: they break it, which they do every year, nothing happens, 519 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: So like why would I start breaking? Like there's no consequence, 520 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: there's no checks and balances, and so it's like it's 521 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,919 Speaker 1: a great rule in theory, but if you just let 522 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: people break it and nothing happens to them, it's pretty useless. 523 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,120 Speaker 1: And so there has to be some sort of enforcement component, 524 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: like you know, in these obvious situations where likely clearly 525 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: it's a sham interview and they knew who they're going 526 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: to hire from the Jump, hire from the Jump, and 527 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 1: they're just interviewing a couple of random black people just 528 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,479 Speaker 1: to say they did. Like, there has to be some 529 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: sort of recourse, And really the only time that happened 530 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,120 Speaker 1: is I believe it was with the Lions that one 531 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: year where they got to find and even in the 532 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: fine was like you know, six figures like shipped to 533 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,919 Speaker 1: the NFL team. They don't care about that, and so 534 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:39,959 Speaker 1: it has to be like some sort of actual like 535 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: consequence that they would care about incurring to really make 536 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 1: them follow that rule. Otherwise it's just like a light 537 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,199 Speaker 1: suggestion which obviously is not going to do anything. 538 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 4: Okay, So where I'm at with the Runey rule one, 539 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 4: I think that you know, a lot of people are 540 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 4: hard wired to think that the if a solution isn't 541 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 4: absolute and doesn't comprehensively and holistically solve a problem, then 542 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 4: that solution has no merit, and I just wholeheartedly, absolutely 543 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,159 Speaker 4: disagree with that line of thinking. The results of the 544 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 4: of the run rule are underwhelming, for sure, it doesn't 545 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 4: really have a lot of teeth, but I don't think 546 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 4: you really put that onus on the rule itself. I 547 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 4: think that, you know, the brunt of the blame should 548 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 4: be placed on the people making these hiring decisions. And secondly, 549 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,400 Speaker 4: I think I think that you know, there are all 550 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 4: types of hurdles that diverse coaches face, and we need 551 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,120 Speaker 4: to you know, you know, combat these hurdles at every 552 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,120 Speaker 4: step in the process. And one of those hurdles is 553 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,880 Speaker 4: just getting an interview. Right, Black coaches and diverse coaches 554 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 4: are not plugged into a lot of these networks that 555 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 4: white coaches are hired from. They're not in these you know, 556 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 4: good old boys networks that a lot of their white 557 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 4: counterparts maneuver in. And I just do not know how 558 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 4: you you know, you know, combat combat that without the 559 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 4: run rule, Like, how do you fix that? How do 560 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 4: you tell these seventy five year old white owners that 561 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 4: they need to embrace black people more in their personal life, 562 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 4: that they need to you know, invite more black people 563 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 4: to Thanksgiving and get him group chats with black people, right, Like, 564 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 4: I just don't see a viable alternative. And like I said, 565 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,360 Speaker 4: I see the flaws of the Rundor rule clear as day. 566 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 4: But you know, I think that falls on the people 567 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 4: making the hiring decisions, not necessarily on the rule itself. 568 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: Well, I don't think the Runey rule is gonna do 569 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: those things that you mentioned there, Like there is really 570 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: no onus on them to build those relationships because the 571 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: Reuney rule exist. I think it has to be more 572 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 1: so supplemental programs that are put in place, which they 573 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,479 Speaker 1: used to have something that Ron Rivera, who I interviewed 574 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: for the series. He said, when he was up and 575 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: coming coach back in the nineties and early two thousands, 576 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: they had this sort of kind of minority coaches summit 577 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: where they had opportunity to meet with ownership and build relationships. 578 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: And that's where he met the Spanos family who owns 579 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 1: the Chargers, and they ended up hiring him as a 580 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 1: coordinator A couple of years later, and when he was 581 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: interviewing for the Panthers head coaching job, they called Jerry Richardson, 582 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 1: who passed away. He called the Spanos family for recommendation 583 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: and they gave a good one because they had a 584 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: relationship with him because he met them at that summit, 585 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: and so like that's an example of you know, that 586 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: sort of relationship paying off. But then they took their 587 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: program away. They most recently brought it back last year, 588 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 1: I believe, and so we'll see if that provides some 589 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,400 Speaker 1: different results. But you can't just be a running rule 590 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: like you got to have formalized programs like that where 591 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 1: they can network not just with owners, but gms have coaches, 592 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: other decision makers and learn how to angle themselves towards 593 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,679 Speaker 1: these positions and make relationships, because relationships is probably the 594 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: biggest factor when it comes to these head coach and hires, Like, 595 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,479 Speaker 1: if you're running a billion dollar corporation, you're not going 596 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 1: to hire somebody to effectively run it for the most 597 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: the most important component of it that you don't have 598 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: a good relationship with, Like that's just stupid. Nobody would 599 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,239 Speaker 1: do that. But if there's no nothing that provides a 600 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: forum for them to build those relationships with people that 601 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: don't look like them and that aren't in their bubble, 602 00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 1: how would they ever foreigners relationships? And so that's where 603 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: to me, and not just on the decision makers, not 604 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: just the owners. That's where the league office comes in. 605 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 1: Y'all have to create some bodies, and like I said, 606 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: they're bringing some of them back, but you have to 607 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: make sure that they're actually like effective and not just 608 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: there for show and shake hands and kiss babies and 609 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 1: take some pictures and post some shit online. Like it 610 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: has to actually be like useful. And so there's there's 611 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 1: always more that can do. It can if it's just 612 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: a running rule, like I said, it might as well 613 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 1: it's useless to me, Like it has to be supplemented 614 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: by consequence if you don't follow it, and also supplemental 615 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 1: programs that support it and lift it up and you know, 616 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 1: help those you know, require interviews for the head coaching jobs, 617 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,400 Speaker 1: for the GM jobs, be interviews with people that they 618 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: actually know, because if you just have an interview a 619 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: bunch of strangers, they're not hiring those strangers. That's why 620 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: the numbers are what they are now. And I can't 621 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: really knock them for that. I can knock them for 622 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: not making a better effort to go make the relationships. 623 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: But you know, like these people are rich, white billionaire 624 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: It's like what reason do they have to get outside 625 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: their bubble? You know, And so unless you like make 626 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: them basically, they're not going to do it. And so 627 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: that comes on the League office, which I know they 628 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 1: don't have all the power, like ultimately they work for 629 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: the owners, and so that's where that kind of conflict happened. 630 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: So like to a degree, the owners have to be 631 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: willing to do it, otherwise it's just not gonna happen. 632 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: But I do think the League office can do a 633 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: better job and steering them in the right direction. 634 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 5: From a creative standpoint, like with this project, how consuming 635 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 5: was this? 636 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:16,959 Speaker 3: You know, what I mean. 637 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 5: It's so thorough, so well thought out, you know what 638 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 5: I mean, Like the interviews, the context you added in narration, 639 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 5: you know what I mean. I don't give a fuck 640 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 5: about football, but I'm loving this, you know what I mean. 641 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 5: Like it's you know, like, how was it put piecing 642 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 5: all this together? How consuming was What were your days looking? 643 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: Like? I needed every one of those eighteen months. That 644 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: part of it was just like a lot of it 645 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: was just honestly that I didn't. I still had to 646 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: do my day job, you know, in a sense, like 647 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: the month iched I fished the podcast, I believe in 648 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: September twenty twenty one, and I officially started meeting with 649 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: my producer October and that was the month that John 650 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: Gruden was on. That was that was fun. You know. 651 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 3: So you have some shit going on. 652 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: Cover the rators, Like there's always something like I can't 653 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: not do I can't not do my job that and 654 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: do the podcast, and so like the first few months 655 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 1: was mostly ideation, figuring out like you know, how many 656 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: episodes we want the episodes to be about, Like what 657 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: is the overall tension of the project, you know, what's 658 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: the format? How long do we want the episodes to 659 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: be who do we want to reach out to for interviews, 660 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: how do we want to do those interviews, what are 661 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 1: the interview is going to be about? And so it's 662 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: just a lot of like prep prep work, I would say, 663 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: in the first few months. And then we started interviewing people, 664 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: and with a topic like this, you know, it's difficult 665 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: to get people to talk on the record, which was 666 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 1: the only option because it's a podcast, like, I can't 667 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: this is This isn't like a story where I can 668 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: make you an anonymous source or anonymous quote. Like even 669 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: if I don't say who you are, people don't hear 670 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: your voice right right right you are, So it was 671 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: harder to get yeses for this than like a written story, 672 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: I would say. And then figuring out the scheduling and 673 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: the time, so like the reporting process was another task 674 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: in itself. And then once I had sort of a 675 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: good foundation of reporting, then came something that I'd never 676 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: done before, which is scriptwriting. Zero idea where to start, 677 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: and so like I had to write the scripts for 678 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: all five episodes, and that was sort of an evolving 679 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:18,959 Speaker 1: process of like, you know, I started with what I 680 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: had and then as I did more interviews. I went 681 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: back and changed things and flipped things around and cut 682 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: certain things. And I'm a producer that I was working 683 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: with throughout all this, Like I was doing this by myself, 684 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: but I was doing you know, most of the work 685 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: on that front, and it was more so like getting 686 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: some assistance along the way. And then you know, kind 687 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: of coming into this year, I would say in January, 688 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: that's when I like, I felt like I was at 689 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: a good point where I still was doing more reporting, 690 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 1: but I felt like I was good enough with the 691 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: reporting and where the script was to start voiceover ahead 692 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: of you know, our plan launch in February. And I 693 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: had never done voiceover before. Like I do a podcast. 694 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: I have a Raters podcast I do twice a week 695 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 1: during the season. But there's just a different there's a 696 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: different type of audio that voiceover is, like your voice inflection, 697 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: your tone, the consistency you have to have, like the 698 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: recording setting. Like I'm in my living room right now, 699 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: and there I was in my closet in my bathroom 700 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: with the bathroom my bedroom, with the door closed, with 701 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: my mic positioned a certain way to like make sure 702 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: that like the acoustics around me, and it wasn't Echoe 703 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: and all that kind of shit that I just never 704 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: even like gave any thought to in the past. And 705 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: so that was a process. And then when we started 706 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: getting the episode together, I was listening to it and 707 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: I was like, I don't sound good enough, and so 708 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 1: I went and got a different mic and re recorded 709 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: the entire series about a week before it came out. 710 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: And so, like I said, I need every one of 711 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: those eighteen months. It was a hell of a a 712 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: hell of a task, especially balancing, you know, like I said, 713 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: my day job, which is would be tough regardless of 714 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: what I covered, but especially covering the goddamn Las Vegas 715 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: r you know what I mean. So, like it was 716 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: a lot like that made it more rewarding at the end, 717 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: and more so seeing the response from my colleagues at 718 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: the Athletic, other people in the industry, my friends, my family. Like, 719 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: it was hard for me because the series came out 720 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 1: over the course of a month and I was still 721 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 1: in process. Like when the first episode came out, I 722 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: was working on episode two. When that came out, I 723 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: was working episode three. When that came out, I was 724 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: still working on four or five. And so it was 725 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: hard for me to really like appreciate it or like 726 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: say how I felt about it until it was all 727 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: the way out, and like I kind of sat back 728 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: and like just kind of took it all in and 729 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: all the reaction that I got. And that's like I 730 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: would say, really, the last couple of weeks is the 731 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: first time I'm and that was pretty dope. And eighteen 732 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: months after I started it, you know, so it's been 733 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: a process for sure. 734 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 3: Can I ask you a dorky technical question? 735 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: Sure? 736 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 3: Exciting. 737 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 2: I thought it was a I thought it was a 738 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 2: really brilliant decision to structure this sort of moving up 739 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 2: the powers ructure as you did instead of doing like 740 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 2: episode one the sixties episode two of the seventies. What 741 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 2: went into that decision And it sounds like you made 742 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 2: that decision kind of like you said, when you're doing 743 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 2: the prep work for it, But what went into kind 744 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 2: of choosing to structure it that way so that it 745 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 2: wasn't just like we're going to start way before anyone's 746 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 2: thinking about You were able to incorporate kind of the 747 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 2: history of all these different things in each episode. 748 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I kind of viewed it as like an inverted pyramid, because, 749 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: like I said, I think we always start with ownership. 750 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 1: We always go there directly with this issue like their fault, 751 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 1: Like it's like starting with the players. People are probably like, 752 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 1: why are you starting there, Like it's not their fault, 753 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 1: and so no, it's not like you need to understand, 754 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 1: like this is where it starts, this is the foundation, 755 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,399 Speaker 1: like this is why that's further you go up, people 756 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: get further away from this issue and care less, and 757 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: this is why, you know, in episode five we get 758 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: a bigger, a better idea of why this is how 759 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: it is right now. And so that was kind of 760 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: my my thought process with it. Episode one is more 761 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,880 Speaker 1: of a pretty wide wide ranging episode, like it's more 762 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 1: of history history. It goes our way up from you know, 763 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: the start of the NFL to you know, Colin Kaepernick 764 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,720 Speaker 1: to you know today basically coming off of George Floyd, 765 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: and so that one's more of like a foundation table setter. 766 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 1: But then from there I kind of wanted to just like, 767 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: all right, we're going down to the perceived bottom of 768 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: the bottom of the perceived power ladder and going to 769 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: work our way up, just because I think that's kind 770 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: of the opposite of what people expect. It wasn't just 771 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: trying to be contrarian, but I think it like served 772 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: the purpose of giving every every step up you go, 773 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: you have more context and more contexts, more contexts, so 774 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: once you get to the ownership level, like, oh, I 775 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: absolutely understand why this is how it is. At least 776 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: that's what I was hoping people came away with it from. 777 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 2: That's how I took it, not for sure, Like like 778 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 2: I said, I thought I thought it was I thought 779 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 2: it was a really it's not like when when the 780 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:51,799 Speaker 2: show was pitched to us, I was like, oh, that's 781 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 2: obviously an interesting topic, but I was really sort of 782 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 2: blown away by that structure. 783 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 3: I thought that really like unlocked the whole way you 784 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 3: reported through it for sure, Thank you. 785 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, I want to talk about episode three. That particular episode, 786 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 4: you know, stuck with me in a very unique way. 787 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,400 Speaker 4: In that episode, you discussed Clarence Sheldon, who was the 788 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 4: Chargers runner back coach, worked his way up to their 789 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 4: offensive coordinator during the Ladanian Rivers Gates era when they 790 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 4: were one of the best offenses in the league, right, 791 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 4: and you know, he had aspirations of being a head coach. 792 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,359 Speaker 4: And you know, I had interviewed multiple times, but he 793 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 4: ultimately retired that I think it was fifty eight, which 794 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 4: is young as hell for a coach to retire at 795 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,319 Speaker 4: You got like fifty more years on the tank at 796 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 4: that age, and he retired because he had grown weary 797 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 4: of fighting a battle to become a head coach that 798 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 4: he felt he wasn't gonna win. And you know, I 799 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 4: had mixed emotions about that. Part of me was, you know, 800 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 4: just just so crush at this. You know, football mastermind 801 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 4: walked away defeated with so much more to give, and 802 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 4: part of me, you know, actually respected and was happy 803 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:57,839 Speaker 4: for him. You know that he was protecting his piece 804 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,080 Speaker 4: in this way. So you know, this this episod it 805 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 4: was about Clarence Sheldon in particular, but you know it's 806 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 4: also about how crushing the glass ceiling can be for 807 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,359 Speaker 4: black professionals, right, So you know that. With that said, 808 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 4: I'm curious if while putting this together, if there was 809 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,840 Speaker 4: like any story, any interview, any fact you came across 810 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 4: that just kind of, you know, hit your emotions in 811 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 4: a unique way, like that story hit me. 812 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 1: That was it, because honestly, I did not know I 813 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: did not know who Quinnan Sherman was when I started 814 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 1: this project and Zeer what idea he was saying? A 815 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 1: lot of that it makes sense, makes sense because for one, 816 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,839 Speaker 1: I was like twelve, I think when he became their 817 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,840 Speaker 1: offensive coordinator, so I didn't really necessarily know who the 818 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 1: NFL assistants were at the time. But he was basically 819 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 1: Eric Bene me before ed being to me. Obviously we 820 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: all know who Aired being me is now like we're 821 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 1: very aware because I think it's covered in a different way. 822 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 1: But it was easier not to know who if it 823 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 1: was ten years ago, it much easier not to know 824 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: who he is. And that's because North Turner got all 825 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: the credit for the offense. It was his offense. It 826 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 1: was the superstar players, and like so Clarence Shellman was 827 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: like he's there, but like he's not really, that's not 828 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: He's not responsible for any of that. You know, that's 829 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: the way it was perceived. And so and for I 830 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,399 Speaker 1: think his story why it stands out for me is 831 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: I think, you know, and I've written about, you know, 832 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: the coaching issue before at the college level, at NFL level, 833 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,760 Speaker 1: and I think people get sort of tired of hearing 834 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 1: the same numbers and the same story arc every year 835 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: over and over and over and over, and they kind 836 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 1: of get desensitized to it and to the fact that 837 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 1: these are like people, these numbers, like these aren't just numbers, 838 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 1: like these are individuals with like emotions and families and 839 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: things going on in their life. And I think Shellman 840 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 1: brings that to light because he was like literally getting 841 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: up to go to work in the morning and feeling 842 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: shitty about himself, like like this he's had millions of dollars, 843 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: he was making six figures. He was a highly successful team. 844 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,279 Speaker 1: Like he could have rolled this shit out and kept going, 845 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 1: you know, for like I said, ten fifteen years and 846 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 1: made even more money and been cool, but like it 847 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 1: was such a burden on him mentally that he literally 848 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 1: could not do it anymore, right, And that's like we 849 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 1: don't really get that, you know when you just look 850 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 1: at other's three black head coaches or four technically the 851 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: three who identify as black, Like all right, cool, it's 852 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 1: the same number I sall last year and a year 853 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 1: before that. Who caress. Like when you get a story 854 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 1: like that, then it really brings it to light, you 855 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like, like what these people have 856 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 1: to go and not that everybody is like that, Like 857 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: you know, like I said, I can't live with myself, 858 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: you know, because this is taking such a burden on me. 859 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,000 Speaker 1: But that does exist, and it's probably more of those 860 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: people than than you would you would think of. And 861 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: it's not just coaches, it's executives, it's players, you know, 862 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 1: who end up in these situations where they feel like 863 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 1: they're contained by the system and can't be themselves and 864 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,839 Speaker 1: speak out and get to where they want to go. 865 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,840 Speaker 1: I mean, like, I know, we like forget it since 866 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 1: you know, we had a quarter a Super Bowl with 867 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 1: two black quarterbacks, but like Doug Williams had to go 868 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 1: through hell to be the first black quarterback to win 869 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 1: a Super be a starting quarterback on the team that 870 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: won a Super Bowl. And so it's something that I 871 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: think his emotion and his passion, which I think you 872 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 1: can hear in his voice, which is another thing though, 873 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,280 Speaker 1: like about this project that like I think I learned, 874 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 1: Like there's just a different feeling you have when you 875 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,479 Speaker 1: hear somebody say something and you can kind of feel 876 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 1: their emotion versus like reading it on the page. Right, 877 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 1: if you just read the quotes that he said in 878 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 1: my story, it probably wouldn't hit the same versus like 879 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: if you hear his voice and kind of like the 880 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,239 Speaker 1: choppiness of it, you know what I mean, Like it 881 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:30,279 Speaker 1: just hits you in a different way. 882 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:33,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, like that like that was something that yeah, I 883 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 4: was gonna say it, Like like Doug Williams, he just you know, 884 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,759 Speaker 4: that was something else that you know, you know, kind 885 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 4: of you know, hit me in the emotions when he 886 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 4: was just talking just so matter of factly about his 887 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,840 Speaker 4: upbringing in rural Louisiana where he's like, yeah, you know 888 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 4: I had to be home you know before sunset or 889 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 4: I might get lynched, you know, basically right, and he 890 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,400 Speaker 4: and for sure that that resonated in a way that 891 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 4: when you hear it won't if you've read it, you know. 892 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And so that's hopefully that you know, it's 893 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 1: not like I wouldn't say it. I wouldn't say it's 894 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 1: like I don't know if entertaining is a word, but 895 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 1: I think it just it kind of grips you a 896 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,399 Speaker 1: little bit more when you get that component of it 897 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 1: that you just lose in some other mediums that there are. 898 00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 5: There for sure, you you have your age in your 899 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 5: in your Twitter, bio, your twenty six you young as hell, 900 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 5: my boy, you feel me? 901 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:20,879 Speaker 3: You know what I mean? 902 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 5: You could tell no wrinkles on that face. 903 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:24,919 Speaker 3: You know what I mean. It's nice and tots. 904 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 5: You know what I'm saying. 905 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 1: I turn, I turn. I turned twenty seven alone. 906 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 3: Oh happy, belated, belated related but lately birthday. 907 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,359 Speaker 2: He's still You're still good, ten fifteen years away from 908 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 2: the hookahs with John but. 909 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,399 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know, man, the young folks, 910 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 5: some people fucking with the hookahs. 911 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:42,239 Speaker 3: You feel me, I don't know. 912 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 5: We'll stay away from that. But anyway, bro, you you're 913 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 5: extremely successful. I know you with the Missouri you know, 914 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 5: Jay School, which is what like top two, top three 915 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,359 Speaker 5: in the nation something like that, but like it's top one, 916 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,879 Speaker 5: top one, okay, okay, top one. 917 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:57,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, but is there like you. 918 00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:58,799 Speaker 5: Know, we get a lot of listeners that are like 919 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,760 Speaker 5: trying to figure out it's no USC Jackson. 920 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 3: Is they do alright in Missouri? 921 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:09,280 Speaker 2: Yeah? Sees the entertainment department Jackson not a journalist. 922 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,400 Speaker 5: But I'm wondering, like, you know, is that like was 923 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 5: there any particular things you think that you was key 924 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 5: to your success or you know, any advice you give to. 925 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:16,560 Speaker 3: We had a lot of. 926 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:17,840 Speaker 5: People that are trying to figure it out to be 927 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,239 Speaker 5: hitting folk, hitting us all up about you know, what 928 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 5: they're trying to do with their lives. But is anything 929 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,640 Speaker 5: like you know, in particular, you've done, you think that 930 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 5: kind of was beneficial to you to be so successful 931 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,000 Speaker 5: so young doing this important work you're doing currently. 932 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's kind of a basic answer. But 933 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,480 Speaker 1: like my thing, I've always put put working, you know, 934 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 1: above all else. Like a lot of people, I feel 935 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 1: like that are my age. We like to talk about 936 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: what we can do, what we want to do, Like 937 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:46,120 Speaker 1: I think I can do this, like you give me 938 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,120 Speaker 1: the opportunity I can do that, so yo, just go 939 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,000 Speaker 1: do it. It's like bust jazz and get it done. 940 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,880 Speaker 1: Like I pitched this podcast to the athletic me and 941 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 1: ask you to do it. I know I wasn't gonna 942 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 1: get no extra money for this or anything like that, 943 00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:58,719 Speaker 1: but I was like, yeah, I'm going to do this 944 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:00,360 Speaker 1: because I want to do it and see if I 945 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,239 Speaker 1: can do it well and push the boundaries of my 946 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,719 Speaker 1: career and become a better talent I guess overall, or 947 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:07,960 Speaker 1: like I don't just write about the Raiders like I 948 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,840 Speaker 1: write about, you know, the aces here in Vegas and 949 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:15,280 Speaker 1: sports expansion and the NBA and Summer League and boxing 950 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:17,880 Speaker 1: and all these other things. Like I don't have to 951 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:19,600 Speaker 1: do any of that, Like I'm not getting paid to 952 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:21,759 Speaker 1: do any of that, but I do it because I 953 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:23,600 Speaker 1: know in the long run, when it comes to me 954 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:25,719 Speaker 1: getting to where I want to go, it's going to 955 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:27,840 Speaker 1: pay off. Like it may not be immediately when I 956 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:29,440 Speaker 1: want it to be or exactly how I want it 957 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,359 Speaker 1: to be, but I'm gonna get there. And like that's 958 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,520 Speaker 1: the thing. I think people when they don't get that 959 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 1: instant gratification, they allow that to affect their grind level, 960 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 1: you know, as I like to call it, like they 961 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,319 Speaker 1: just God, man, I didn't get what I want. I'm 962 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,360 Speaker 1: just go ahead and do my daily job and just 963 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:45,960 Speaker 1: do the bare minimum and get by so I can 964 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:47,799 Speaker 1: get about of here. Like that's not going to help you, 965 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:52,319 Speaker 1: Like you gotta bust it, especially like if you're a 966 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:54,719 Speaker 1: person of color or a woman or both, or some 967 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,080 Speaker 1: other marginalized group, like we are not going to get 968 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,680 Speaker 1: given anything in any industry in this country or most 969 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 1: countries probably and especially not in the journalism world. And 970 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 1: that's something that s ji sports journalism is to really 971 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,720 Speaker 1: drove home from me with Sandy Rosenbush, who's a white woman, 972 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:13,920 Speaker 1: and Leon Carter who's a black man, and Greg Lee 973 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,840 Speaker 1: as a black man who run that organization, and just 974 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,840 Speaker 1: the network of people that came out of there from 975 00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,880 Speaker 1: you know, Malika Andrews to Marcus Thompson to you know, 976 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,840 Speaker 1: some others you know, throughout the business. Like you know, 977 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,800 Speaker 1: you just learn like you gotta bust your ass, like 978 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,120 Speaker 1: like it's kind of the old cliche, like you gotta 979 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,920 Speaker 1: you know, work, work twice as hard to you know, 980 00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,200 Speaker 1: get the same result, you know as some of your 981 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,640 Speaker 1: other kind of parts. And so that's my thing, and 982 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:42,319 Speaker 1: it's like you have to be consistent with it. You 983 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,440 Speaker 1: cannot waiver. You cannot give them any like ounce of 984 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,600 Speaker 1: a reason to like see, I knew he was lazy, 985 00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:50,200 Speaker 1: or I knew that you know, he ain't really want 986 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:51,920 Speaker 1: to or she didn't want to go for it, or 987 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:53,960 Speaker 1: they weren't serious about this. You cannot give them any 988 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:57,240 Speaker 1: room to like discredit you, you know, for the talented 989 00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,160 Speaker 1: individual that you are. And so that's always been my 990 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:04,400 Speaker 1: mindset and like I don't really see that changing, you know, 991 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,719 Speaker 1: and like, like I said, it's still like I like 992 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 1: I'm not not where I want to be at, Like 993 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:10,239 Speaker 1: I still have a lot of work to do in 994 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,080 Speaker 1: places to go, but I feel like I'm on the 995 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,400 Speaker 1: right path because of that, and that's something I'm always 996 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,880 Speaker 1: going to keep intact. And that's another part of it, 997 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,160 Speaker 1: is like once you start having success, you can't get complacent, 998 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,359 Speaker 1: like you definitely want to appreciate it. I'm not saying 999 00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:22,759 Speaker 1: like just keep going and keep going and going like 1000 00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:24,520 Speaker 1: you want to like definitely be mindful of like where 1001 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,120 Speaker 1: you've gotten, you know, wherever you happen to be. But 1002 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,960 Speaker 1: you can't just ease up and relax because again that's 1003 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,280 Speaker 1: where that just gives another opening for somebody to doubt 1004 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:35,960 Speaker 1: you or say you can't do something. And so it 1005 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,319 Speaker 1: has to be like this constant quest, like almost a 1006 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,560 Speaker 1: never ending quest, like continually, you know, improve and get better. 1007 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:43,920 Speaker 1: And the only way you can really do that is 1008 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,080 Speaker 1: to work. And so that's that's my advice to really 1009 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:49,640 Speaker 1: people of all ages, but particularly you know, young people. 1010 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:52,960 Speaker 3: That's good advice. 1011 00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:58,960 Speaker 4: The last question, sure, there was a quote from from 1012 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,880 Speaker 4: Bomani John Shasta Homie Bo that I feel like you know, 1013 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:04,640 Speaker 4: if you had to picture just one quote, just kind 1014 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 4: of one thesis statement to to kind of, you know, 1015 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:12,120 Speaker 4: encapsulate what the issue is here. I feel like bo 1016 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:14,600 Speaker 4: nailed it when he said, you know, something on the 1017 00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:19,719 Speaker 4: lines of the problem is, you know, white people fundamentally 1018 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,359 Speaker 4: believe that black people are intellectually inferior, and we're not 1019 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:24,400 Speaker 4: going to make any progress until we address that, like 1020 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:28,440 Speaker 4: paraphrasing them a pit there. So you know, that was 1021 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,360 Speaker 4: what stuck with me as as kind of you know, 1022 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,920 Speaker 4: I guess the thesis statement of sorts of this project. 1023 00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,719 Speaker 4: So I'm curious as to what you would say to 1024 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,000 Speaker 4: Sean is kind of you know, what you would say 1025 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:40,920 Speaker 4: is like if you could boil it down to just 1026 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,160 Speaker 4: a quote to you know something in your words, like, 1027 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,719 Speaker 4: what would you say is the desis statement of this project? 1028 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,759 Speaker 1: I think the biggest thing is, like the reason why 1029 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,239 Speaker 1: all of this, you know, is what it is is racism. 1030 00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:56,719 Speaker 1: You just got to be honest, like, you know, I'm 1031 00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,560 Speaker 1: not saying that everybody is racist, but a lot of 1032 00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,440 Speaker 1: people that are causing this issue are either racist or 1033 00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:06,560 Speaker 1: they're okay, you know, continuing to live and thrive in 1034 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,960 Speaker 1: a system that's built on racism, which you might as 1035 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:10,799 Speaker 1: well be a racist at that point. And so, like 1036 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,279 Speaker 1: people don't like to hear it. It makes them uncomfortable. 1037 00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:15,759 Speaker 1: It's like, oh, I can't possibly you know, why are 1038 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,120 Speaker 1: you calling me a racist? Like I have black friends 1039 00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,000 Speaker 1: and I'm like no, like like this is that's what 1040 00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:23,000 Speaker 1: it is. Like that's literally the only answer. There is 1041 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,520 Speaker 1: no other explanation because we've seen too many times that 1042 00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,920 Speaker 1: like when companies are diverse, or you know it's the 1043 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,720 Speaker 1: coaching staff or we're talking like sweet sweet level stuff, 1044 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,480 Speaker 1: it only makes you better, it only makes you more money. 1045 00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:36,680 Speaker 1: Like just look it, like I said, look at the 1046 00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,799 Speaker 1: Super Bowl. Patrick Mahomes is like the best quarterback I've 1047 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:42,359 Speaker 1: ever seen in my life. And it used to tell 1048 00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,080 Speaker 1: him people that look like him that they couldn't play 1049 00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,759 Speaker 1: quarterback just because they have his skip cover. Imagine if 1050 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,760 Speaker 1: they just didn't let Patrick Mahomes play quarterback, y'all fucking stupid. 1051 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,240 Speaker 1: That would be like how much less money the chiefs 1052 00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:55,520 Speaker 1: in the NFL would be set to make. And so 1053 00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:59,120 Speaker 1: it's like the only reason you actively exclude people from 1054 00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,919 Speaker 1: a talent pool any position that look a certain way 1055 00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:08,200 Speaker 1: is racism or sexism or transphobia, homophobia, whatever it is, 1056 00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:10,799 Speaker 1: whatever the label is, like, you can't get around that, 1057 00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,120 Speaker 1: and people have to stop ducking and dodging and trying 1058 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:15,640 Speaker 1: to find these alternative, you know, reasons for what the 1059 00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:17,680 Speaker 1: issues are like that is it, like we have to 1060 00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,480 Speaker 1: embrace that, accept that, and find ways to combat it. 1061 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,480 Speaker 1: And so you can't you can't fix the issue until 1062 00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:26,560 Speaker 1: you acknowledge what the issue is. And so that's my 1063 00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:29,920 Speaker 1: you know, kind of thesis from this project. And you know, 1064 00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:32,759 Speaker 1: we'll see if people you know, want to do that 1065 00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,480 Speaker 1: in the coming years. They haven't shown me any reasonablieve 1066 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,319 Speaker 1: they will, but hopefully they do, so we can see 1067 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,520 Speaker 1: some some progress, not just in the NFL, but you know, 1068 00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,200 Speaker 1: in America, in the world as a whole for sure. 1069 00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:43,640 Speaker 1: For sure. 1070 00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,839 Speaker 4: Wise words, man, big fan of your work here, big 1071 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,840 Speaker 4: fan of you, rooting for you, almost you during your path. 1072 00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,759 Speaker 4: You got a fan in us. Welcome back anytime you 1073 00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:54,600 Speaker 4: want to hop on. Man, it's been a pleasure. Like 1074 00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:57,440 Speaker 4: I said, this is an incredible project. Highly recommend it 1075 00:48:57,480 --> 00:48:58,080 Speaker 4: to all all listeners. 1076 00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:00,319 Speaker 3: Go check it out, all right, Sean Read, thank you 1077 00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:00,719 Speaker 3: so much. 1078 00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:03,160 Speaker 2: Check us work out at the at the Athletic and 1079 00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,600 Speaker 2: please go check out Between the Lines podcast. It does 1080 00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,719 Speaker 2: have its own feed. Like you said, now all the 1081 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,080 Speaker 2: episodes are out, all five of them. Brilliant podcast. Thanks 1082 00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:14,560 Speaker 2: so much for hopping on with us and being so 1083 00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,279 Speaker 2: generous with your time, man, We really appreciate it. 1084 00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:18,480 Speaker 3: And like Tyler said, we're all rooting for you for sure. 1085 00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:22,359 Speaker 1: So much a thank you, appreciate you, doub