WEBVTT - Gordon Chang - Will the China-Russia Axis Start WWIII? 0:00:11.657 --> 0:00:14.937 You're listening to The Buck Sexton Show podcast, make sure 0:00:14.937 --> 0:00:17.977 you subscribe to the podcast on the iHeartRadio app or 0:00:17.977 --> 0:00:21.697 wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, Welcome to another 0:00:21.697 --> 0:00:24.697 episode of The Buck Sexton Show, a deep dive on 0:00:24.897 --> 0:00:28.657 all things China right now. And for that we have 0:00:29.257 --> 0:00:33.217 the perfect guest, Gordon Chang. He's the author of The 0:00:33.537 --> 0:00:37.057 Coming Collapse of China as well as the Great US 0:00:37.257 --> 0:00:40.777 China Tech War. He's a great following on Twitter as well. 0:00:40.857 --> 0:00:44.257 Gordon g. Chang, Gordon, my friend. Good to have you back, sir, 0:00:44.337 --> 0:00:47.257 good to see it. Thank you so much. But this 0:00:47.337 --> 0:00:51.177 will be fun. So the biggest news right now with 0:00:51.217 --> 0:00:54.377 regard to China is and something that came up of 0:00:54.417 --> 0:01:00.497 the weekend, how worried should we be about Chinese military 0:01:00.657 --> 0:01:03.977 support to Russia in the Ukraine War? And I want 0:01:03.977 --> 0:01:06.297 to dive into what that could look like. But what 0:01:06.377 --> 0:01:10.377 do you see it as right now? Gordon? China has 0:01:10.417 --> 0:01:14.417 been supplying military assistance from the very beginning of this war, Buck, 0:01:15.297 --> 0:01:18.497 but China has picked up the pace now. The Breaking 0:01:18.577 --> 0:01:23.497 Defense website reports that almost every day, and antonoff An 0:01:23.617 --> 0:01:27.177 one twenty four, which is the biggest cargo plane in 0:01:27.177 --> 0:01:31.097 the World leaves Jung Joe, which is in central China, 0:01:31.137 --> 0:01:34.977 and it goes to Russia. It turns off its transponder 0:01:35.137 --> 0:01:38.377 when it leaves. I mean it's carrying ammunition and other 0:01:38.457 --> 0:01:42.577 high consumption rate items. This follows reports that China has 0:01:42.617 --> 0:01:45.617 been selling drones, so the Wagner Group, for use in Ukraine, 0:01:46.137 --> 0:01:49.257 and from the get go in this war, China has 0:01:49.257 --> 0:01:54.217 been feeding location data to the Russians. The Ukrainian drone 0:01:54.217 --> 0:01:58.417 operators were using products made in China. That means that 0:01:58.497 --> 0:02:02.937 China knew the location of the Ukrainians. China was sending 0:02:02.977 --> 0:02:05.297 that over to Russia, and then Russia was taking out 0:02:05.297 --> 0:02:09.457 the Ukrainians. That's military assistance. Now we have a series 0:02:09.497 --> 0:02:12.697 of state from Jake Sullivan, the National Security Advisor, and 0:02:12.777 --> 0:02:17.697 others saying, oh, we think China is contemplating supplying lethal 0:02:17.737 --> 0:02:21.017 assistance to Russia. Well, they've already been doing so for 0:02:21.177 --> 0:02:23.857 quite some time, and I think that they owe us 0:02:23.897 --> 0:02:26.897 an explanation why they think that all of these reports 0:02:27.697 --> 0:02:33.177 are untrue, because obviously we are hearing information contradicting what 0:02:33.297 --> 0:02:37.017 the administration is publicly telling the world and the American people. 0:02:37.417 --> 0:02:39.257 Is there a concern Gordon I mean, as you just 0:02:39.337 --> 0:02:42.097 laid out, there's already military support that has been going 0:02:42.177 --> 0:02:46.017 from day one from China to Russia. But is it 0:02:46.097 --> 0:02:48.777 possible in your mind that there could be an escalation 0:02:48.857 --> 0:02:53.217 even on top of that from Shijinping to provide either 0:02:53.297 --> 0:02:57.017 just greater amounts of what's already there, or perhaps more 0:02:57.057 --> 0:03:02.337 advanced weaponry or even Chinese training on certain specific systems. 0:03:03.897 --> 0:03:07.297 There always can be a ramp up in assistance. And 0:03:07.537 --> 0:03:10.777 one of the explanations that I have just guessing, because 0:03:11.017 --> 0:03:15.057 all I'm doing is speculating, is that the administration doesn't 0:03:15.137 --> 0:03:18.897 want to acknowledge the lethal assistance because it's still trying 0:03:18.937 --> 0:03:21.897 to work with China to keep that assistance to the 0:03:21.897 --> 0:03:25.777 bare minimum. And maybe people in the administration think that 0:03:25.777 --> 0:03:30.337 if they publicly confront China that Beijing will increase what 0:03:30.457 --> 0:03:34.337 it sends over to the Russians. I don't know. That's 0:03:34.417 --> 0:03:38.257 not a good strategy. It's not working, and I think 0:03:38.257 --> 0:03:44.257 that it just misunderstands the Chinese way of thinking. We 0:03:44.337 --> 0:03:47.377 have a lot of policies but that sound good to 0:03:47.417 --> 0:03:50.857 the ear like they should work. But for decades we've 0:03:50.897 --> 0:03:55.177 been applying these policies and we now have disastrous results, 0:03:55.457 --> 0:03:58.217 which means obviously we've got to try something new because 0:03:58.217 --> 0:04:03.057 what we've been doing ain't working. What is the Chinese 0:04:03.097 --> 0:04:08.297 interest in Ukraine and in the Ukraine Russia conflict? What 0:04:08.657 --> 0:04:14.577 are they hoping to achieve? Is their strategic objectives? Again 0:04:14.697 --> 0:04:18.417 we have to speculate because I think that ultimately what 0:04:18.457 --> 0:04:24.777 they're doing is counterproductive. But obviously they see themselves on 0:04:24.817 --> 0:04:28.577 the same page with Vladimir Putin. Cejumping and Putin, they 0:04:28.657 --> 0:04:31.497 view the world in the same terms. They identify the 0:04:31.537 --> 0:04:36.217 same enemy, which is us, and I think Siejumping finds 0:04:36.257 --> 0:04:38.737 Putin to be very useful because he's willing to go 0:04:38.777 --> 0:04:41.977 out and really put us on the back foot. You know, 0:04:42.017 --> 0:04:46.377 the more that we expend resources in Ukraine, the fewer 0:04:46.417 --> 0:04:49.657 resources we have to defend our friends and allies in 0:04:49.857 --> 0:04:52.537 East Asia. So that's part of it as well. We're 0:04:52.617 --> 0:04:57.417 being bled and we're being distracted. Now I think we 0:04:57.537 --> 0:05:00.337 need to be in Ukraine because the best way to 0:05:00.417 --> 0:05:04.097 deter China over Taiwan for instances, to make sure that 0:05:04.537 --> 0:05:07.457 Putin losers in Ukraine. But the point is we are 0:05:07.497 --> 0:05:11.657 being bled and the Chinese, I think, enjoy watching this. 0:05:13.057 --> 0:05:16.937 What is the what is your response to the assessments 0:05:16.937 --> 0:05:18.657 that are out there now from people that there is 0:05:18.697 --> 0:05:23.737 a just a growing Russia, China Iran axis. You know, 0:05:24.017 --> 0:05:26.497 it harkens back to the axis of evil speech of 0:05:26.537 --> 0:05:30.657 the Bush administration many years ago with Iraq, Iran and 0:05:30.697 --> 0:05:34.537 North Korea. Now it's much bigger, much more important countries 0:05:34.537 --> 0:05:37.217 that people are tying together. What do you make of that. 0:05:38.777 --> 0:05:40.777 I think that's absolutely right, and I think that we 0:05:40.897 --> 0:05:45.417 have to add North Korea and perhaps add a country 0:05:45.457 --> 0:05:49.177 like Algeria. So you put together a lot of these 0:05:49.177 --> 0:05:54.137 countries in the world's dividing into camps. President Biden doesn't 0:05:54.177 --> 0:05:57.937 want to acknowledge that, but it's playing to see. And 0:05:57.977 --> 0:06:03.177 if you don't acknowledge reality, you can't deal with reality. So, yeah, 0:06:03.177 --> 0:06:06.257 the world is dividing, and it is a Cold war, 0:06:06.417 --> 0:06:09.897 and it's a I think, far more dangerous period than 0:06:10.337 --> 0:06:13.617 the Cold War. You know, people say, oh, you know, 0:06:13.777 --> 0:06:17.977 nineteen sixty two Cuban missile crisis the most dangerous moment 0:06:18.017 --> 0:06:21.337 in history. I could argue in say nineteen sixty one, 0:06:21.617 --> 0:06:26.137 the Checkpoint Charlie crisis in Berlin was perhaps even more dangerous. 0:06:26.737 --> 0:06:29.617 But the point is we know from the archives, but 0:06:29.977 --> 0:06:34.297 that neither Khrushchoff nor Kennedy were willing to use nuclear weapons. 0:06:35.057 --> 0:06:37.977 We don't know that about Vladimir Putin. We don't even 0:06:38.017 --> 0:06:40.737 know that about Siejun Ping. And I think that makes 0:06:40.897 --> 0:06:44.657 this the most dangerous moment in history. And because you've 0:06:44.657 --> 0:06:47.537 got that large camp on the other side, there might 0:06:47.577 --> 0:06:52.857 be willing to use nukes. It's just we're not comprehending 0:06:53.057 --> 0:06:59.857 the possibilities. Are there areas of friction between Putin and 0:07:00.017 --> 0:07:05.297 She that US policy or just US action could exploit. 0:07:05.337 --> 0:07:08.817 I mean, how can you make them less cozy together 0:07:08.897 --> 0:07:10.817 so they're less of a threat to the world order 0:07:10.857 --> 0:07:15.817 as we know it. I think that it's theoretically possible, 0:07:15.857 --> 0:07:20.977 but as a practical matter, it is not. These two 0:07:21.697 --> 0:07:26.137 just believe that they find advantage in each other's arms. 0:07:26.537 --> 0:07:28.417 And I don't think that there is anything, as a 0:07:28.417 --> 0:07:32.017 practical matter, we could do to separate them, except to 0:07:32.097 --> 0:07:36.097 perhaps bring down Russia. We do that, We drive it 0:07:36.097 --> 0:07:41.457 out of Ukraine. Yeah, we end that partnership. And you know, 0:07:41.537 --> 0:07:47.017 people will say that's extraordinarily dangerous, And I say, saying 0:07:47.097 --> 0:07:50.657 something is dangerous is not a meaningful objection, because out 0:07:50.657 --> 0:07:55.057 of three decades of truly misguided Russia policy in China policy, 0:07:55.457 --> 0:07:59.737 we have created an extremely perilous situation. There are no 0:07:59.857 --> 0:08:02.897 safe options, and the most dangerous option of all is 0:08:02.897 --> 0:08:05.857 continuing with the policies that created this disaster in the 0:08:05.897 --> 0:08:08.897 first place. So we're going to have to think about, 0:08:10.177 --> 0:08:13.377 you know, the world in very different terms and realize 0:08:13.497 --> 0:08:17.097 that it is perilous. Gordon, I'm gonna ask you about 0:08:17.377 --> 0:08:20.657 China Taiwan here in just a second. But first from 0:08:20.657 --> 0:08:24.457 our sponsor, My Pillow. 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You 0:09:24.857 --> 0:09:27.057 probably need some new sheets at home. My pillow dot 0:09:27.057 --> 0:09:33.097 com promo code b U C K Gordon, China, Taiwan. 0:09:34.137 --> 0:09:38.017 Let's start with this. Is China, after seeing the situation 0:09:38.177 --> 0:09:43.337 in Ukraine, less likely to invade in well, we'll say 0:09:43.337 --> 0:09:47.697 a five year timetable because they see all the trouble 0:09:47.897 --> 0:09:51.417 that Ukraine, that Russia has had in Ukraine, or more 0:09:51.537 --> 0:09:55.897 likely because they feel the US is distracted and doesn't 0:09:55.897 --> 0:09:58.537 have the stomach for a fight. In addition, on the 0:09:59.057 --> 0:10:04.857 Eastern Front, so to speak. I think that this is 0:10:04.977 --> 0:10:09.297 just guessing, but I think China is less deterred than 0:10:09.337 --> 0:10:13.937 it was before. Now. William Burns, the CIA director, a 0:10:13.977 --> 0:10:17.577 couple of days ago, actually said that China is more 0:10:17.657 --> 0:10:22.177 deterred seeing Russia's problems in Ukraine, and the Chinese, we know, 0:10:22.377 --> 0:10:26.497 are looking very closely at Russia's experience. But you got 0:10:26.497 --> 0:10:31.177 to remember, you know, the happy talk in Washington is 0:10:31.777 --> 0:10:34.737 the heroic resistance of the Ukrainian people have convinced the 0:10:34.857 --> 0:10:40.657 Chinese not to invade Taiwan because they worried about similar resistance. 0:10:41.217 --> 0:10:44.097 And you know, I think there's something to that, But 0:10:44.177 --> 0:10:46.537 we got to look at the rest of the situation, 0:10:46.697 --> 0:10:52.657 and that is there was a failure of deterrence in 0:10:52.857 --> 0:10:58.537 twenty twenty two. We saw the coalition that was a 0:10:58.657 --> 0:11:02.617 raid against Russia, the United States, the twenty seven nations 0:11:02.617 --> 0:11:05.977 of the European Union, in Great Britain had an economy 0:11:06.137 --> 0:11:10.257 twenty five point one times larger than Russia's in twenty 0:11:10.417 --> 0:11:14.377 twenty one, and yet we fail to stop the Russian invasion. 0:11:15.777 --> 0:11:21.537 That is, I perhaps the biggest failure of deterrence since 0:11:21.577 --> 0:11:25.817 the Second World War. And I think China's seen that. 0:11:25.937 --> 0:11:30.457 I think that that reinforces the notion in Chinese minds that, 0:11:31.377 --> 0:11:35.017 as Siejumping's favorite phrases, the East is rising and the 0:11:35.057 --> 0:11:38.977 West is declining. And c has actually thought for a 0:11:39.097 --> 0:11:41.817 very long time the United States is in terminal decline. 0:11:42.377 --> 0:11:45.257 So he sees the failure of deterrence. He sees the 0:11:45.337 --> 0:11:50.577 United States not still being deterred by Russia because we're 0:11:50.577 --> 0:11:54.617 not supplying the assistance that Ukraine needs to win. And 0:11:54.657 --> 0:11:57.497 he can sees that the threats to use nuclear weapons 0:11:58.297 --> 0:12:01.617 have prevented the West from actually coming to the aid 0:12:01.697 --> 0:12:05.617 of Ukraine in the way that we need to. So 0:12:06.617 --> 0:12:08.937 you put all that together, and I think on balance, 0:12:09.057 --> 0:12:13.217 the Chinese believe that they've got a bigger, bigger green 0:12:13.297 --> 0:12:17.737 light to invade. How we don't know how formidable gordon 0:12:18.457 --> 0:12:22.817 are the Taiwanese defense forces in the face of a 0:12:22.857 --> 0:12:27.457 possible Chinese full scale invasion, and also what would it 0:12:27.497 --> 0:12:28.897 take to get well, let's I want to ask you 0:12:28.897 --> 0:12:31.137 about Japan as well, but let's just start with how 0:12:31.177 --> 0:12:35.497 does Taiwan stack up against those initial critical days of 0:12:36.217 --> 0:12:40.417 Chinese forces in an amphibious landing, crossing the straits and 0:12:41.177 --> 0:12:47.417 invading Taiwan doesn't stack up very well because it has 0:12:47.457 --> 0:12:51.737 the wrong types of weapons, and that's the fault of 0:12:51.817 --> 0:12:56.657 some Taiwan general officers who asked to buy the wrong things. 0:12:57.137 --> 0:12:59.737 And it's also the fault of the Pentagon for pushing 0:12:59.897 --> 0:13:04.937 on Taiwan some of the wrong weapons. Taiwan needs cruise 0:13:05.017 --> 0:13:11.137 missiles and it also needs submarines, and we have not 0:13:11.577 --> 0:13:15.377 been willing to sell them submarines. We've been slow walking 0:13:15.617 --> 0:13:20.337 arms sales, as Representative Gallagher said after he just returned 0:13:20.337 --> 0:13:26.617 from Taiwan. So you know, Ukraine needs F sixteens, but 0:13:26.657 --> 0:13:30.097 I don't think Taiwan needs F sixteens because there's gonna 0:13:30.097 --> 0:13:34.657 be no airfield left in Taiwan. You know, after the 0:13:34.697 --> 0:13:37.977 first couple hours of a Chinese bombardment, we're not going 0:13:38.017 --> 0:13:40.097 to have any air fields left in the region either. 0:13:40.417 --> 0:13:45.497 But that's another story. The point is that Taiwan can 0:13:45.537 --> 0:13:49.057 maybe stop the Chinese for a little while, but they're 0:13:49.057 --> 0:13:52.617 going to need help from their friends. Gordon, you raise 0:13:52.697 --> 0:13:56.337 something I think is important for people to know. There 0:13:56.337 --> 0:14:00.577 may be this conception of a Chinese invasion of Taiwan 0:14:00.657 --> 0:14:06.297 looks like some you know, obviously massive air aerial strikes 0:14:06.377 --> 0:14:09.217 beforehand to try to soften up the target the island 0:14:09.257 --> 0:14:14.657 of Taiwan and then naval flotilla, amphibious landing craft and 0:14:14.657 --> 0:14:17.537 they just try to occupy and overrun the forces. But 0:14:17.817 --> 0:14:20.057 you seem to indicate it it could be a lot 0:14:20.097 --> 0:14:24.257 broader than that. What does if you were to invasion 0:14:24.297 --> 0:14:27.017 and I know, look, the Pentagon does war gaming all 0:14:27.017 --> 0:14:28.977 the time, whether the right or wrong. They don't know 0:14:29.057 --> 0:14:32.137 until the bullets start flying. Right, if you were war gaming, 0:14:32.457 --> 0:14:36.057 what a Chinese invasion of Taiwan would look like. What 0:14:36.177 --> 0:14:39.657 happens in those first we'll call those first seventy two hours. 0:14:42.537 --> 0:14:45.657 First of all, I think that maybe for six months 0:14:45.737 --> 0:14:48.817 we don't know that an invasion has started. Because a 0:14:48.937 --> 0:14:52.697 Chinese invasion of Taiwan may not start with war in 0:14:52.777 --> 0:14:56.737 space or you know, a massive aerial bombardment of Taiwan. 0:14:57.017 --> 0:15:01.137 It can start with this. The dissemination of a pathogen 0:15:01.217 --> 0:15:05.537 in Taiwan, you know, just weakened Taiwan's ability to defend 0:15:05.577 --> 0:15:09.017 itself with the disease. You know, We've got a lot 0:15:09.057 --> 0:15:12.017 of smart American war planners who say, oh, don't worry 0:15:12.057 --> 0:15:14.977 about all this. We know, you know, we'll have months 0:15:14.977 --> 0:15:18.617 of notice of an invasion. I'm not sure that that's 0:15:18.657 --> 0:15:21.697 the case. Because you know, we've got American war planners 0:15:21.697 --> 0:15:25.457 who assume that Chinese war planners think like American war planners, 0:15:26.377 --> 0:15:30.537 and so I don't know if that's the case. I 0:15:30.577 --> 0:15:34.337 think that we could very well have this long period. 0:15:35.617 --> 0:15:38.777 It's sort of prepping the battlefield, so to speak. We 0:15:38.857 --> 0:15:44.417 could have sabotage events throughout Taiwan which people may not know, 0:15:44.537 --> 0:15:49.137 or sabotage you know, derailments, chemical fires, all the rest 0:15:49.137 --> 0:15:51.257 of it, the stuff we see in the US for instance. 0:15:52.137 --> 0:15:56.337 So first, the first moments of a war may not 0:15:56.457 --> 0:15:59.617 be evident for quite some time. But when it really 0:15:59.657 --> 0:16:02.577 goes kinnectic, I think we're going to see a lot 0:16:02.617 --> 0:16:05.577 of our assets in space taken down. We'll see a 0:16:05.657 --> 0:16:10.017 bombardment of Okinawa and Guam. We'll see a naval blockade 0:16:10.177 --> 0:16:13.857 which includes sovereign Japanese islands, because remember the island of 0:16:13.937 --> 0:16:19.857 Yanagumi is actually south of Taipei, and for a Chinese 0:16:19.937 --> 0:16:22.377 invasion to be successful, they've got to have a blockade. 0:16:22.577 --> 0:16:25.217 For a blockade to be successful, it's got to include 0:16:25.537 --> 0:16:30.257 Yanagumi and other Japanese islands. So this gets really ugly 0:16:30.457 --> 0:16:33.417 really fast. And one other thing, buck sorry for going on, 0:16:33.497 --> 0:16:39.217 but well, go on, go on. The first kinetic element 0:16:39.337 --> 0:16:41.817 of a Chinese attack could be the use of tactical 0:16:41.977 --> 0:16:45.217 nuclear weapons. I mean, everyone says how hard it is 0:16:45.257 --> 0:16:47.737 to have a cross Straits invasion. You'd have to have 0:16:47.857 --> 0:16:51.257 combined land air sea operations, which the Chinese have never 0:16:51.257 --> 0:16:54.497 done in their history. How do you avoid that, Well, 0:16:54.737 --> 0:16:59.337 you use tactical nukes and you force in the Chinese mind, 0:16:59.377 --> 0:17:02.137 you force everyone to back off because they don't want 0:17:02.137 --> 0:17:05.297 to get nuked as well. Do you think there's a 0:17:05.377 --> 0:17:09.417 chance that they would also? Are there any US assets 0:17:09.457 --> 0:17:11.177 in the region that they would go for with the 0:17:11.217 --> 0:17:14.737 idea that while it maybe US territory, it's not quite 0:17:15.137 --> 0:17:17.417 you know, it's not quite the Fifty States. Do you 0:17:17.417 --> 0:17:19.057 think they might hit Guam? Do you think they might 0:17:19.097 --> 0:17:23.377 try to go after some US Pacific assets? Absolutely? And 0:17:23.537 --> 0:17:27.417 in Okinawa, they got to take out Okinawa. They cannot 0:17:27.457 --> 0:17:33.137 afford to have the large US military presence there left intact. 0:17:33.897 --> 0:17:36.177 So if you're going to go after Guam, you might 0:17:36.177 --> 0:17:42.017 as well go after American bases in Japan, and you 0:17:42.057 --> 0:17:46.057 probably will have the North Koreans engage in some sort 0:17:46.097 --> 0:17:52.417 of provocative activity to draw off the United States. So yeah, 0:17:52.457 --> 0:17:56.977 there's just to be clear, you could foresee or at 0:17:57.057 --> 0:18:00.097 least you could find plausible we'll put it that way. Gordon. 0:18:00.137 --> 0:18:01.697 I'm not you know, no one can predict the future, 0:18:01.777 --> 0:18:04.377 and that's very clear, but you know, it is important 0:18:04.417 --> 0:18:07.217 to understand what the possibilities are in order to plan 0:18:07.297 --> 0:18:10.497 for them. You could foresee a situation where a Chinese 0:18:10.497 --> 0:18:15.817 invasion of Taiwan also coincides with North Korean what just 0:18:16.457 --> 0:18:19.137 military action, maybe not an invasion, but military action of 0:18:19.177 --> 0:18:24.937 some kind strikes, artillery strikes, etc. Against South Korea, absolutely, 0:18:25.337 --> 0:18:31.577 because what better way to divert the United States. And 0:18:31.977 --> 0:18:35.417 so there could be all sorts of things that are occurring. 0:18:36.297 --> 0:18:39.657 And also it could be sabotage by Chinese agents in 0:18:39.697 --> 0:18:43.777 the US, which I think would probably occur pretty much 0:18:43.777 --> 0:18:46.377 at the same time. So this is not going to 0:18:46.457 --> 0:18:49.297 be limited. I want to ask you about Chinese influence 0:18:49.337 --> 0:18:52.337 in the United States Gordon in just a second. 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There's a 0:20:17.337 --> 0:20:20.577 lot of attention that people pay to Chinese influence in 0:20:20.617 --> 0:20:25.017 this country with regard to a few things Hollywood and 0:20:25.137 --> 0:20:29.017 the way that it's clear the media industrial complex here, 0:20:29.057 --> 0:20:32.577 the entertainment complex in America doesn't want to offend China. 0:20:32.857 --> 0:20:37.977 That includes occasionally professional athletes, the NBA notably not wanting 0:20:37.977 --> 0:20:43.697 to upset Beijing. And then some tie in to Hunter Biden, 0:20:43.817 --> 0:20:46.057 the son of the President of the United States, getting 0:20:46.057 --> 0:20:49.497 a whole lot of money from Chinese Communist Party backed 0:20:49.577 --> 0:20:53.217 business interests in China. I wanted you to to sort 0:20:53.257 --> 0:20:56.017 of lay out for everyone in the scope of how much, 0:20:56.617 --> 0:21:00.537 from the elites on down, what kind of control an 0:21:00.577 --> 0:21:06.137 influence operation does China have in the US. China for 0:21:06.257 --> 0:21:09.257 decades has been trying to buy off elements of the 0:21:09.297 --> 0:21:15.097 American society, and they've been extremely successful. As you've been 0:21:15.137 --> 0:21:21.297 talking about on November twenty eight, twenty twenty, Joe Biden 0:21:21.337 --> 0:21:24.577 was elected president, but before he took office, a Chinese 0:21:24.577 --> 0:21:28.857 academic d Dong Shong gave a live stream lecture in 0:21:28.857 --> 0:21:32.337 Shanghai got a lot of play throughout China, and d 0:21:32.697 --> 0:21:37.457 talked about how China was controlling outcomes at the highest 0:21:37.537 --> 0:21:41.057 levels of the American political system. He said that China 0:21:41.897 --> 0:21:44.897 was able to get what it wanted up until Trump. 0:21:45.417 --> 0:21:49.737 It mentioned that the Chinese levers of influence during the 0:21:49.737 --> 0:21:54.617 Trump administration were broken, but how China was looking forward 0:21:54.777 --> 0:22:01.257 to exercising control after Biden took office. And when Dee 0:22:01.377 --> 0:22:04.897 talked about Hunter Biden, everybody in the live audience in 0:22:04.937 --> 0:22:10.857 Shanghai was snickering, so you can see what the Chinese thing. Also, 0:22:10.937 --> 0:22:15.377 D said there was no American politician who could resist China, 0:22:15.537 --> 0:22:18.737 and every American could be bought. Now, I'm not saying 0:22:18.777 --> 0:22:22.617 that what D's assessment was correct. I actually think it wasn't. 0:22:22.977 --> 0:22:26.137 But the point is that's what the Chinese think, and 0:22:26.577 --> 0:22:31.097 that shows you how pervasive Chinese influence in the United 0:22:31.137 --> 0:22:34.977 States is. And by the way, those levers of influence 0:22:35.097 --> 0:22:38.577 that D talked about, that he was exercising both before 0:22:38.737 --> 0:22:43.897 and would exercise after Trump two things Wall Street and 0:22:44.257 --> 0:22:49.777 Henry Kissinger. Just one other thing. The thing about Eric 0:22:49.857 --> 0:22:54.737 Swalwell was the Chinese. And I'm not saying that he 0:22:54.857 --> 0:22:59.417 was treacherous or anything, because I don't know. And I 0:22:59.457 --> 0:23:02.497 also believe that being targeted by China's Ministry of State 0:23:02.577 --> 0:23:07.617 Security is not a sin, because that means everybody in 0:23:07.697 --> 0:23:11.457 Congress would be a sinner. But the point is that 0:23:11.777 --> 0:23:15.057 they Chinese first contact a swallowal not when he was 0:23:15.097 --> 0:23:18.257 in on the House Intelligence Committee, which would obviously be 0:23:18.337 --> 0:23:21.617 of great importance for China. They first contacted him when 0:23:21.657 --> 0:23:26.177 he was on the City Council of Dublin City, California. 0:23:26.377 --> 0:23:30.137 That means that they have not just one Swallowell. That 0:23:30.257 --> 0:23:33.417 means they must have hundreds or thousands of swallow Wells. 0:23:33.617 --> 0:23:37.937 That shows you how pervasive their operations are. So they're 0:23:37.937 --> 0:23:41.057 going for influence operations not just obviously at the White 0:23:41.097 --> 0:23:43.537 House level, but as you point out, all the way 0:23:43.577 --> 0:23:46.217 all the way down and then on the corporate side, 0:23:46.217 --> 0:23:49.577 because that's an area where you know, whether it's Disney 0:23:49.697 --> 0:23:55.657 or Paramount Pictures or National Basketball Association, clearly companies have 0:23:56.297 --> 0:24:02.377 a sensitivity about to say Chinese interests, Chinese Communist Party dogma, right. 0:24:02.377 --> 0:24:04.937 I mean, it's not they're not worried about offending the 0:24:04.977 --> 0:24:07.057 man on the streets so to speak, in Beijing. They 0:24:07.057 --> 0:24:10.057 don't want to upset the powers that be in China 0:24:10.137 --> 0:24:13.977 and lose access to those markets. How much, how much 0:24:13.977 --> 0:24:16.057 money is at staken things like that, I mean, what 0:24:16.057 --> 0:24:17.777 what were to happen, What would happen to some of 0:24:17.777 --> 0:24:20.977 these companies if Shiji and Ping said no, not you, 0:24:20.977 --> 0:24:25.217 you're out. Well, we're already starting to see that buck 0:24:25.297 --> 0:24:28.577 because Cijumping has in fact been saying that. But you know, 0:24:28.657 --> 0:24:33.337 obviously the NBA would lose its entire China market. Um. 0:24:34.217 --> 0:24:38.897 The Hollywood studios, Um, they already losing, you know, a 0:24:38.977 --> 0:24:41.977 large part of the market because Beijing has been promoting 0:24:42.017 --> 0:24:45.857 local films making it difficult for foreign films to be shown. 0:24:46.457 --> 0:24:49.097 But you know, Hollywood still is very much on board 0:24:49.177 --> 0:24:55.217 with China. Um. Fortunately the movie Maverick Top Gun um 0:24:55.297 --> 0:24:59.537 has sort of convinced Hollywood that you don't necessarily need 0:24:59.577 --> 0:25:03.777 the Chinese market. Um. But this is not only this 0:25:03.857 --> 0:25:07.457 is this is a question of Sijumping forcing American companies 0:25:07.457 --> 0:25:10.457 and other companies out of China. A good job. Maverick 0:25:10.497 --> 0:25:12.137 not allowed in China, Gordon, I didn't know that, but 0:25:12.257 --> 0:25:15.097 they didn't allow that movie in. Yeah, I don't think 0:25:15.097 --> 0:25:18.737 it was allowed in Remember the issue though, was the 0:25:18.817 --> 0:25:24.297 patches on right, Yeah, yeah, the Taiwan you know, the 0:25:24.337 --> 0:25:30.097 Taiwan message there. So really what Beijing, what Hollywood was saying, 0:25:30.177 --> 0:25:31.857 was look, we don't care, We're going to do this. 0:25:32.057 --> 0:25:33.697 You know where you let your film in or not. 0:25:35.057 --> 0:25:38.617 But American films have not done that well in China 0:25:39.097 --> 0:25:42.577 recently because Beijing has really started to put the clamps 0:25:42.617 --> 0:25:44.937 down on them. So, yeah, they still have a market. 0:25:44.977 --> 0:25:47.697 It's still considered to be important in Hollywood, but I 0:25:47.697 --> 0:25:52.017