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Speaker 1: Everybody. In this classic episode we are We actually had

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Speaker 1: a friend of ours who was an intern at the time,

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Speaker 1: come on the show. It's not intern Steve from the

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Speaker 1: n Essay, it's our intern Sam, who still works with

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Speaker 1: us and shared a very weird story about a private

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Speaker 1: school he went too. I don't even want to spoil

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Speaker 1: anything in this episode. You can read the title. It's

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Speaker 1: about the Gulan movement. Check it out. From UFOs to

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Speaker 1: psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is riddled with unexplained events.

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Speaker 1: You can turn back now or learn the stuff they

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Speaker 1: don't want you to know. Welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen. My name is Nul. They call me Ben,

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Speaker 1: our compatriot, Our third Amigo's fallen in the battle. Yes,

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Speaker 1: Matt Frederick has been temporarily afflicted with a virus, which

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Speaker 1: he assures us is neither terminal nor at this point contagious. However,

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Speaker 1: he's taking some R and R and will be returning

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Speaker 1: very soon. He's with us in spirit as soon as

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Speaker 1: he convalesces, Yes, as soon as he convalesces and reconstitutes.

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Speaker 1: We're also, of course, joined by our superproducer Trista McNeil

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Speaker 1: and most importantly, you are here, which makes this stuff

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Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. No, this is a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a different episode for you and I,

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Speaker 1: isn't it. Yeah, it's a little I don't know. Did

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Speaker 1: you ever? That's kind of the buffer. I feel a

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Speaker 1: little bit exposed way you're looking at me. Did did

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Speaker 1: you ever go to a Did you ever go to

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Speaker 1: a charter school? I went to a summer camp and

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Speaker 1: to us summercamp. It's the same thing as I guess,

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Speaker 1: it's not the same thing. You're gonna have to teach

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Speaker 1: me about charter schools. I understand it, like basic view

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Speaker 1: of what charter schools are, but we're gonna have to

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Speaker 1: go a little micro. But no, Ben, I did not.

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Speaker 1: I went to a magnet school. Yeah, yes, it's not

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Speaker 1: the same thing, but it is, you know, publicly funded.

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Speaker 1: Technically it's a public school, but there's like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: what does a man school get in unless you meet

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Speaker 1: certain criteria like you. I had to sing happy birthday.

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Speaker 1: Real well, Tristan actually went to the same magnet school.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, peak behind the cart and me and Tristan

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Speaker 1: are old friends, a couple of magnets. Yeah, yeah, we

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Speaker 1: had magnetic personalities that right, I played the violin. I

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Speaker 1: think Tristan just painted or something. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: Triston didn't. Yeah, he's an artist. Yeah, he's in the

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Speaker 1: jazz band probably, But no, what's a charter school? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so as as people know, regardless of what country you

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Speaker 1: live in, there are probably different specialized versions of schools,

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Speaker 1: and they are not separated by a level alone. In

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Speaker 1: the US, we have multiple types of schools. They are

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Speaker 1: magnet schools, right, type of public institution. There are, of

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Speaker 1: course public schools, they're private schools, they're religious schools, and

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Speaker 1: there are charter schools. Okay, so charter schools, just like

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Speaker 1: a public school, offer free tuition to children who take

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Speaker 1: these state mandated exams, but they're subject to fewer rules, regulations,

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Speaker 1: and statutes than traditional schools. They also receive less public

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Speaker 1: funding and it's usually like a fixed amount for pupil

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Speaker 1: isn't a big part of it though, That kids don't

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Speaker 1: have to be zoned, like, they don't have to live

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Speaker 1: specifically in the area that's zoned for that particular school, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And they can be nonprofit. They can also be for profit,

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Speaker 1: so they have they have wide variations within that within

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Speaker 1: that field. And I know people are probably wondering, right,

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Speaker 1: You're probably wondering, why are the guys talking about charter schools?

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Speaker 1: Promise you there's a payoff, and it's a big, weird one.

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Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's really weird. So right now, there are

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Speaker 1: a little bit less than seven thousand charter schools in

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Speaker 1: forty two states and DC. That's of twenty and sixteen,

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Speaker 1: and they have about three million students. They've been growing

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Speaker 1: like gangbusters, well, especially into the current administration and the

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Speaker 1: new Secretary of Education. Isn't school choice? Isn't that a

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Speaker 1: big part of charter schools? Vouchers? Yeah, yeah, school vouchers, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: nail on the head. There's a big there's a big

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Speaker 1: move and there has been for a number of years

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Speaker 1: to offer that choice. Because you know, for anyone who

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Speaker 1: ever has ever bought a house, one thing real estate

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Speaker 1: agents love to bring up is the school system and

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Speaker 1: there will be a premium placed on a property because

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Speaker 1: of the zip code. Absolutely right, And this is something

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Speaker 1: familiar to anyone who has children and out yeah, I

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Speaker 1: said to anyone who has parents, Yeah, this issue has

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Speaker 1: or this practice of sending children to charter schools has

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Speaker 1: its proponents and its critics. Oh, we should also mention,

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Speaker 1: like a magnet school, they may provide a specialized curriculum. Right,

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Speaker 1: So you had you had a magnet school that focused

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Speaker 1: on arts, I would say, yeah, yeah, they could also

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Speaker 1: focus on mathematics, on stem training, or on vocational training.

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Speaker 1: We're not here to argue the pros or cons about

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Speaker 1: charter schools. However, our special guests today came to came

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Speaker 1: to us off the air with an amazing and very

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Speaker 1: strange story about charter schools, not just here in Georgia,

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Speaker 1: but throughout the nation. And you may have heard us

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Speaker 1: mention mentioned this guy on the show before way back

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Speaker 1: in the day. But ladies and gentlemen, Noel and I

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Speaker 1: would like to officially introduce you to stuff they don't

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Speaker 1: want you to know. As intern Sam T. Garden, Greetings everyone, Hey,

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Speaker 1: thanks for coming on the show. So seriously, glad I

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Speaker 1: could be here. Do you agree with our description of

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Speaker 1: charter schools? That seemed about right? I think it's very

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Speaker 1: accurate from my experience. Yes, Okay, Now, Sam, you went

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Speaker 1: to a charter school for a time, and when you

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Speaker 1: when you were at this charter school, it turned out

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Speaker 1: that not everything was as it seemed at the surface. Right,

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Speaker 1: that's correct, there are there are some things overall that

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Speaker 1: is we learned that, hey, that's a little bit off,

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Speaker 1: that's a little bit weird. Could you give us just

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Speaker 1: some examples, some initial examples. So some initial examples were

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Speaker 1: the high turnover rated teachers. We'd have some teachers we

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Speaker 1: very much liked, but suddenly they move on. There was

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Speaker 1: an international kind of themed like instead of like a

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Speaker 1: cheerlead group, we would have Turkish dance. We'd have some

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Speaker 1: kind of interesting, very big science projects and other things

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Speaker 1: that we would go to competitions with. But our teachers

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Speaker 1: did a lot of the work. And then you come

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Speaker 1: to the science fair one day and you'd see a

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Speaker 1: giant test the coil in the middle of the gymnasium

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Speaker 1: and be like, I don't think middle schoolers built that

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Speaker 1: things like that. Let's learn a little bit about the teachers.

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Speaker 1: Could you describe some of your instructors. So some of

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Speaker 1: my instructors were a mix of American teachers that they

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Speaker 1: hired from around the area and a lot of international

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Speaker 1: teachers from outside of the countries, more specifically from Turkey.

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Speaker 1: These teachers, a lot of these teachers were very good.

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Speaker 1: They were all very intelligent people, highly qualified, but some

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Speaker 1: of them were overqualified and kind of didn't speak the

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Speaker 1: language as well as you hope. For example, I had

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Speaker 1: one teacher who was had a degree in believe it

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Speaker 1: was atomic engineering or atomic energy, but taught like the

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Speaker 1: kind of the feel wellness class, understand your emotions class.

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Speaker 1: It's like, I think you're you're you're way more qualified

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Speaker 1: for this. You're very intelligent, because that sort of like

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Speaker 1: when they get the gym teacher to also teach you know,

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Speaker 1: driver's ed exactly exactly, a little bit a little bit difference.

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Speaker 1: We didn't. She never taught me how to build a

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Speaker 1: nuclear reactor, which I was a little bit sad about. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Or we'd have some teachers who didn't really talk to

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Speaker 1: us very much, and all of our work was just

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Speaker 1: like worksheets that they would hand out and we would

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Speaker 1: hand them back and we didn't have a lot of interaction.

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Speaker 1: It was it was strange, we're creeping up on something.

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Speaker 1: I think we should go ahead and just okay, this

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Speaker 1: is a particular type of chart, not not a type necessarily,

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Speaker 1: but almost a chain, I guess you could call it.

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Speaker 1: I think network, Network Network, because they all had different

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Speaker 1: names that weren't related to the brand, shall we say,

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Speaker 1: which is, uh, how do you pronounce it? Thelan movement.

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Speaker 1: So they were called things like the busy Bee Academy

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Speaker 1: for you know, talented youths and things like usually would

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Speaker 1: a high emphasis on math and science, and like the

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Speaker 1: one you attended was Fulton Science Academy. Okay, so how

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Speaker 1: could you argue with a name like that? But I

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Speaker 1: think you're absolutely correct. No, that's what we need to

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Speaker 1: establish because while these while this network of hundreds of

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Speaker 1: charter schools may have seemed unrelated, were in truth much

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Speaker 1: more like limbs on a branch or fingers on a hand,

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Speaker 1: and the hand is something that we just mentioned, the

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Speaker 1: Ghulan movement this, Yeah, it's true. It sounds crazy and

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Speaker 1: no offense, Sam, but uh Nole, Matt and I were

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Speaker 1: pretty skeptical at first. Oh, I would have been you

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Speaker 1: think you were skeptical? I was in it, and my

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Speaker 1: mother was coming to me like, yeah, we might need

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Speaker 1: to change schools. I'm like, what are you talking about?

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Speaker 1: And then she started going into this stuff and I

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Speaker 1: was like are you are you okay? So, so the

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Speaker 1: Ghulan movement is an Islamic transnational movement led by a

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Speaker 1: religious figure from Turkey named Fetula Gulan, and he lives

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Speaker 1: in exile in Pennsylvania currently and the Poconos. Yes, just so.

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Speaker 1: And he uh he is considered by some to be

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Speaker 1: the second most powerful man in Turkey or formerly the

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Speaker 1: second most powerful, from between one and four million followers. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: not just in the US and Turkey, but across the world.

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Speaker 1: Because the school that Sam went to turned out is

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Speaker 1: one of these nodes in the network and not in

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Speaker 1: any way rare. That's the scariest part because because this

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Speaker 1: this school functions as what the opponents would call a

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Speaker 1: affront or a almost a month away to move money exactly.

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Speaker 1: And this this movement, Like most people, if you're listening,

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Speaker 1: when you hear something described as a movement, at what

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Speaker 1: point do you does it get to be a movement? Yeah? Right?

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Speaker 1: And is numbers game good? Is it bad? Right? I

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Speaker 1: mean four people is a movement? TECHNI right, right together

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Speaker 1: in a line, you can look pretty intimidating. A group

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Speaker 1: of four walking. I think you hit the nail on

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Speaker 1: the head there. That's group of people. I feel like

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Speaker 1: you need at least eight to twelve to be a movement.

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Speaker 1: See I'm I'm really joking, but even that seems low

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Speaker 1: to me. Like a movement needs to be what like

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Speaker 1: a like a revolution, like a mini h Right, there's

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Speaker 1: a change. I wonder if there's a counter terrorism definition

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Speaker 1: of it. We could. It's a term that gets thrown

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Speaker 1: on politics a lot like that. During the last election.

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Speaker 1: You know, our president kept referring to his campaign as

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Speaker 1: a movement, right, And I guess a lot of supporters

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Speaker 1: of political candidates would be, like the so called Bernie Bros.

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Speaker 1: Would be, I guess a movement. There's definitely a number here.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit more, just to paint the

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Speaker 1: scenery of what the Ghoulon movement is. These people who

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Speaker 1: are making money off these schools and employing each other

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Speaker 1: in these schools. That's those those two things are all true.

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Speaker 1: They are very true. They be very careful not to disparage,

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Speaker 1: of course, where we're not trying to disparage, because a

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Speaker 1: lot of what the school does, at least there's I

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Speaker 1: had a very positive experience for a very large portion

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Speaker 1: of it. It was only after you kind of pulled

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Speaker 1: back the curtain saw the whole machine that it really

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Speaker 1: became a problem. So the movement itself has been characterized

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Speaker 1: as Islam in a less hardline way or a less

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Speaker 1: rigid application the nice parts of Islam, right, So it's

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Speaker 1: technology friendly. They want to work with current existing social structures.

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Speaker 1: They encourage interfaith conversations, and that's that's a big deal

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Speaker 1: to a lot of people. But also, as you can see,

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Speaker 1: it could be considered beyond controversial, you know, anathema of sorts.

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Speaker 1: I think it's more because it's kind of a front

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Speaker 1: for what their kind of actual main goal is. You

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Speaker 1: actually go in there. Yeah, tell us a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I have a quote from Googlan himself from this, it's

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Speaker 1: more kind of it seems more insidious because at first glance,

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Speaker 1: it's like, oh, it's a guy who's about interfaith dialogue

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Speaker 1: and who was very much into math and science. Why

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Speaker 1: wouldn't you want one of him opening up a school

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Speaker 1: in your neighborhood. It makes it like it makes sense.

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Speaker 1: But here's just a quote from him. You must move

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Speaker 1: in the arteries of the system without anyone noticing your

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Speaker 1: existence until you reach all the power centers. You must

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Speaker 1: wait until such a time as you have gotten all

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Speaker 1: the state power until you have brought to your side

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Speaker 1: the power of the constitutional institutions. So that seems a

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Speaker 1: little bit, a little bit kind of insidious, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that reminds me, you know what, that reminds me of

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Speaker 1: back when we looked at communist worries and communist witch

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Speaker 1: hunts in the fifties, where people would talk about a

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Speaker 1: so called fifth column, you know, and a domestic sleeper

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Speaker 1: force of sorts. Oh, we do need to say, by

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Speaker 1: the way, that as we as we look at this, yes,

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Speaker 1: this is an Islamic movement and it does touch on Islam,

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Speaker 1: but we're not We're not bashing anybody for their religious beliefs.

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Speaker 1: We do we do have a little bit of foreshadowing here, sayman,

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate that you put that in there, because,

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Speaker 1: like the opponents say, it's possible that the Ghulan movement

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Speaker 1: is not all it seems. It's not just according to

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Speaker 1: its detractors. It is not just an attempt to make

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Speaker 1: a more friendly version of a religion and then to

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Speaker 1: build schools. There's an agenda at play. Opponents have labeled

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Speaker 1: members of the Gulan community as secret missionaries and those

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Speaker 1: who are sympathetic to the movement, describe it more as

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Speaker 1: a civil society organization. Well, one point I read in

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Speaker 1: the Atlantic article that you sent me about it, which

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Speaker 1: was fantastic, was that there was no evidence whatsoever that

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Speaker 1: there was any kind of Islamic indoctrination or radicalization built

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Speaker 1: into the curriculum, and to the point where if that

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Speaker 1: became an issue with certain detractors, it would come off

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Speaker 1: as being xenophobic. Yeah, So that that was really fascinating

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Speaker 1: to me because it's clearly not about any kind of

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Speaker 1: radicalization in that respect, and it was very inter faith,

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Speaker 1: almost friendly. It reminded me of like Unitarianism or something

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Speaker 1: like that, where it's not obviously it's secular. It wasn't secular, though,

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Speaker 1: I mean, what were there religious aspects to it? I'm

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Speaker 1: a little trying to get around it. Here's from my

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Speaker 1: experience in the school, there never really was anything that

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Speaker 1: really kind of made religionous center point of everything. It

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Speaker 1: was very much all about education and more than that.

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Speaker 1: There it was definitely trying to make a have all

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Speaker 1: the students have a positive kind of view of Turkish

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Speaker 1: culture in Turkey in general. So I think it was

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Speaker 1: more about the trying the culture rather than religion. Though

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Speaker 1: I will say that at my school, and I can't

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Speaker 1: say that this is at all schools, but not There

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Speaker 1: definitely was a prayer room that was there, and they

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Speaker 1: it was open to all students. But it seemed to me,

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Speaker 1: at least from what I was, that only students of

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Speaker 1: the Islamic students were made aware of the prayer room.

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Speaker 1: They weren't really, we weren't really made aware of it.

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Speaker 1: If we wanted to followed that ourselves. What was the

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Speaker 1: reason that you sought out the school or how did

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Speaker 1: it come to your attention? And is there some something

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Speaker 1: in your family's background that made this appealing to your

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Speaker 1: parents in some way? Or it sure did. My grandfather

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Speaker 1: taught at a charter school, and though that charter school

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Speaker 1: is outside of our range for what it would be

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Speaker 1: easier to go to school every day, we thought, why not?

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Speaker 1: These things seem very interesting and teachers outside the curriculum,

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Speaker 1: and we're already kind of seeing us slump in the

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Speaker 1: schools near our areas. Why not give it a shot.

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Speaker 1: We came to the school that the test scores were

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Speaker 1: really good. It was an international school which promoted multiculturism,

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Speaker 1: and which is like, oh, that's really good. My mom

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Speaker 1: definitely was very much a pro for that, and I

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Speaker 1: was very interested too. Were like it had a lot

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Speaker 1: to do with the appeal of a very good school

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Speaker 1: with great test scores, and it had a lot to

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Speaker 1: do with dealing with other cultures, becoming more extempting, being

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Speaker 1: very multicultural, and just kind of getting more experiences from

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Speaker 1: my young, very kind of isolated American kid, just like

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Speaker 1: I didn't really have to deal with a lot of

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Speaker 1: other cultures just from where I was. So my parents thought,

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Speaker 1: let's let's kind of immerse you into it a little

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Speaker 1: bit and probably a great language classes, better opportunities to

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Speaker 1: explore things that a public school might not be able

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Speaker 1: to concentrate on. You actually went to Turkey as part

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Speaker 1: of your time at this academy. That's very true. That's

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Speaker 1: the first point where we started to pull things together,

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Speaker 1: like something doesn't quite add up here. That's when we

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Speaker 1: started kind of digging into the school and when we

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Speaker 1: started getting kind of stonewalled by the administration. Could you

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Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about your trip. So the

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Speaker 1: trip when it was first announced, it was over spring break,

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Speaker 1: ten days, ten nights, all expense paid trip. All you

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Speaker 1: have to do is pay eight hundred dollars as a

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Speaker 1: student and eleven hundred dollars as a parent, and for

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Speaker 1: going to Turkey for over a week. That's that's really good.

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Speaker 1: So we're like, of course we've got to go. But

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Speaker 1: as it approaches, we're like, can we see the itinerary

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Speaker 1: and they're like, no, no, we don't have the itinerary.

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Speaker 1: And then as we keep going closer and closer each day,

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Speaker 1: they're like, we still, you still don't have the itinerary.

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Speaker 1: If we don't have when we're not going to go,

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Speaker 1: So eventually like oh no, no, no, here you go.

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Speaker 1: But even then it was just a list of the

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Speaker 1: places that we were all going to go, and it

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Speaker 1: wasn't until like a few days before we found out, oh,

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Speaker 1: the students and the parents will be separate, because you

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Speaker 1: assume that as the parents would come and help shaper

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Speaker 1: and all the kids, because there's going to be a

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Speaker 1: lot of us going, but we would be even on

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Speaker 1: different flights, in different cities, and without any way real

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Speaker 1: way to contact or communicate with each other. M So

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Speaker 1: there's already something that seems kind of weird, right, And

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Speaker 1: your your mother is one of the first people who

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Speaker 1: begins to put some pieces together. That's right, you ran

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Speaker 1: into another charter school too, correct, that's right. We u this.

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Speaker 1: My mother was on an airplane traveling to another one

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Speaker 1: of the cities and then she met a Oh look,

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Speaker 1: there was an American teacher in front of her. She's like, hey,

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Speaker 1: how are you doing. So they started talking and they're like, wait,

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Speaker 1: so you're on the same trip. We've gone to a

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Speaker 1: lot of the same places, but we're You're also a

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Speaker 1: charter school, but we're not affiliated. That's strange. So they

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Speaker 1: start talking about that. But guess what, the principle of

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Speaker 1: that other school comes over and switches seats with her,

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Speaker 1: so she can't talk with my mom. And the strange

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Speaker 1: part is later that trip they found it. They met

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Speaker 1: each other again at the same hotel they were both

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Speaker 1: staying yet and that was a lot of weirdness from her.

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Speaker 1: But now there's also some weirdness going on with me.

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Speaker 1: So I'm we're going around having the time of our lives,

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Speaker 1: seeing ancient Byzantine ruins, going to the Grand Mosque. It

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Speaker 1: was amazing, going through some bazaars. But then there's some

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Speaker 1: weird stuff that started to happen like we would never

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Speaker 1: really know where we were going to go stay for

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Speaker 1: the night. They were basically kind of calling other friends

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Speaker 1: in their in their network saying, hey, do you have

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Speaker 1: a room for this many kids? This and the other thing.

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Speaker 1: And so this is the really weird thing. Now you

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Speaker 1: have to understand that we were a math and science school,

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Speaker 1: so you can and we were. We were some very

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Speaker 1: nerdy kids, and I take pride in that, but I

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Speaker 1: understand that the kind of stereotypes that go with us. Sure,

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Speaker 1: So all of a sudden, we're at this kind of

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Speaker 1: a park and all these Turkish girls start coming over

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Speaker 1: from another charter school and they start being very kind

359
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Speaker 1: of uh interested in all the guys that are going

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Speaker 1: to our school, and that just didn't add up. That's

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Speaker 1: the thing like that, that's the part. That's the part

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Speaker 1: we're like, wait a minute, why this doesn't make any sense.

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Speaker 1: And it turns out later we actually went to that

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Speaker 1: exact school. There was a friend. It's like a sister

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Speaker 1: school in Turkey. We're like, oh, what are the odds

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Speaker 1: of that. After this trip, which sounds like it was

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Speaker 1: a great trip, everyone we met was fantastic Turkey, The

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Speaker 1: beautiful country, got to see amazing historical places. It was

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Speaker 1: a solutely the trip of the lifetime, if not a

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Speaker 1: little bit strange. Yeah, And so when you returned, when

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Speaker 1: you and your mother returned to the States, she began

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Speaker 1: to investigate to in hopes of connecting some dots and

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Speaker 1: finding some answers. And this is where the story takes

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Speaker 1: a bit of a twist, and we learn that this

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Speaker 1: charter school network and the Ghulan movement may have much

376
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Speaker 1: much more to it than you would originally suspect. But

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Speaker 1: we'll only learn that after a word from our sponsor.

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Speaker 1: Upon your return, you learn, you and your mother learn

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Speaker 1: that not only is this charter school run by members

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Speaker 1: of the organization known as the Ghulan Movement or his

381
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:02,480
Speaker 1: met in Turkish, but also learn more about what that

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Speaker 1: movement is, what that movement is really quote unquote up to, right,

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Speaker 1: And that's what the kind of interesting part was. My

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Speaker 1: mom when she first was investigating, She's like, this is

385
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Speaker 1: just sort of weird. She's trying to get to the

386
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Speaker 1: bottom of it, understand it. So she started talking to

387
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Speaker 1: these really good journalists, like really high up there. These

388
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,679
Speaker 1: weren't these weren't yahoos and they're like, oh wow, this

389
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,960
Speaker 1: is really interesting. This is compared to something else I'm

390
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Speaker 1: going on. If you're willing to talk to me about it,

391
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Speaker 1: I'd love to have the information. But don't worry. I

392
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Speaker 1: won't use your name. Okay, don't worry. It happened multiple times.

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Speaker 1: She's like, that's really strange. Well, I don't care if

394
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Speaker 1: they use my name. What's there's nothing to be so

395
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 1: sinister about this. But that's when she starts digging and

396
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,359
Speaker 1: starts seeing the stuff that the move that the school

397
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Speaker 1: does that you wouldn't necessarily put on the brochure. So

398
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Speaker 1: this is stuff like this is stuff that has been proven.

399
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Speaker 1: This is so using a lot of the tax dollars

400
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Speaker 1: to build their schools, but always doing it very cheaply.

401
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Speaker 1: Somehow it's coming in under budget, and that money just

402
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 1: sort of disappears. There's they start using construction companies that

403
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,399
Speaker 1: you find out, oh wait, they're owned by people who

404
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Speaker 1: were either on the board of the schools or on

405
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 1: the boards of one of the sisters schools. They start

406
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Speaker 1: using a lot of the money for kind of political

407
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Speaker 1: contributions and to start taking a bunch of politicians on

408
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Speaker 1: the same trip that I went on said exactly, a

409
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Speaker 1: lot of self dealing, and then when they did go

410
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Speaker 1: for outside help. There's several cases where they wouldn't they

411
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Speaker 1: just wouldn't pay the contractors. Wasn't the school the actual

412
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Speaker 1: or maybe maybe it wasn't yours specifically, but one of

413
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Speaker 1: the ones in Fulton County was quite in debt, that

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Speaker 1: is correct? Yeah, And is that because of that kind

415
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Speaker 1: of stuff like not paying local contractors? Like who were

416
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Speaker 1: they in debt too? I mean, if a lot of

417
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Speaker 1: the self dealing is going on, that would be harder

418
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Speaker 1: to trace, I guess. But were they not? Because I

419
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Speaker 1: know that they get taxpayer money to fund the school,

420
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Speaker 1: So was there an issue with their use of taxpayer

421
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Speaker 1: money as well? Definitely something to do with the use

422
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Speaker 1: of the taxpayer money that kind of moving around. I

423
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Speaker 1: know there was a couple, if not with the local one,

424
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Speaker 1: but in several examples, there was lawsuits from contractors like

425
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Speaker 1: you didn't we built your school, you didn't pay us

426
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 1: the money after that, and they would just kind of

427
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 1: stop talking to them and they were just ghosts on

428
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 1: them exactly, which doesn't really work when you have a

429
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,640
Speaker 1: big contract with someone, when you owe them a lot

430
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 1: of money. In a permanent address. Yes, and on the surface,

431
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,920
Speaker 1: they were doing their job. You even you as an insider,

432
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 1: say it's it was a good school experience. Test scores

433
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 1: were good, the teachers were receptive, and you know, good

434
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 1: it was. The whole environment was pretty solid. Yeah. I

435
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 1: think here's the thing. There are some teachers who were

436
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 1: very much part of the movement, and there are some

437
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 1: teachers who were there because of the benefits that I

438
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: gave I see. But one of the things, they brought

439
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: a lot of people over with hib visas, which that

440
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 1: means they couldn't find hire someone who was qualified locally.

441
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 1: You can only apply for that if you can't do that.

442
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: So apparently they couldn't find a lot of a lot

443
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,959
Speaker 1: of teachers math signs and English teachers around in George

444
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 1: for some reason. And a lot of those teachers like

445
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,679
Speaker 1: they would come over. But part of the agreement is

446
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: like you'll get paid this amount, but you have to

447
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,199
Speaker 1: give like this much back to the movement. You essentially

448
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 1: have to tithe to his myth exactly. So that's a

449
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 1: that's another thing that makes it sound as if things

450
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: are financially not on the up and up. And we

451
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 1: know that we know that historically the connection between religion

452
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 1: and money. Not to shout out our previous episode too hard,

453
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:34,120
Speaker 1: but the connection between religion and money is very very important,

454
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 1: and often it's a love hate relationship. It's a fine

455
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 1: line too where it like become Obviously you need money

456
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: to continue any large organization, or you have overhead and

457
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 1: you have infrastructure, and you have to pay employees just

458
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,400
Speaker 1: like you would any other company or organization. But when

459
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: it starts to get out of hand, like with the

460
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 1: Creflo dollar type, you know, where you're using tithe money

461
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: to finance your jet, or as in this situation where

462
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: we see the leader of this movement using some of

463
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 1: these funds that were being generated to finance political revolution. Yes. Yes,

464
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 1: But one other thing I just have to mention about

465
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,239
Speaker 1: the school yeah, and especially really into the money, is

466
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: that a lot of the really good American teachers never

467
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: really got promoted. Well, some of the teachers who were

468
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 1: who very quickly were rotated in didn't have the best

469
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 1: grasp on the language and basically basically worked off of

470
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 1: worksheets where they often got promoted and got and were

471
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: moved around in that sort of thing. But while they

472
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: were kind of ignored, and it was especially a problem

473
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 1: with a lot of the women teachers. They were not

474
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,199
Speaker 1: as they were not given the same amount of respect.

475
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 1: And I know that that led to a bunch of

476
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: the teachers leaving there and forming their own charter school,

477
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: a charter school revolution as well as above, so below

478
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: reminds me of supersymmetry, because Noel, you you dropped a

479
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 1: very important line there that I want to make sure

480
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: everybody listening understands. You said political revolution. Well, I mean

481
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 1: it's you know, there is evidence, as we're going to discuss,

482
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,479
Speaker 1: that the leader of this movement was not only you know,

483
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 1: hiding funds and sort of washing money that was being

484
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: diverted to other things. One of those things was an

485
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: attempt to overthrow the government of Turkey. Yes, just so,

486
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: so this uh, this movement that promotes itself as as

487
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 1: a moderate interpretation of Islam in two thousand and sixteen,

488
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 1: all about non violence, all about yeah, let's emphasize that part. Yes,

489
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 1: in two thousand and sixteen, the government of Turkey requested

490
00:27:55,520 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 1: Ghulan's extradition from Pennsylvania and continues to do so because

491
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 1: they say that the Ghulam movement was directly responsible for

492
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: a failed coup attempt in the Turkish government. And this

493
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,199
Speaker 1: is where things start to get interesting because if we

494
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 1: follow the money, and I think that was very smart

495
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 1: for you to construct that that list for us. If

496
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: we follow the money, then I'm sure some of us

497
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 1: listening are thinking, well, problem number one. This would be

498
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 1: federal tax dollars supporting a religious movement right or religious

499
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: education possible right, So that could get sticky. But more importantly,

500
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: this becomes federal tax dollars to some degree unknowingly supporting

501
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: and intervention in the affairs of a sovereign nation, which

502
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: is in some cases considered grounds for starting a war.

503
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: This is a big and range deal we've got. You

504
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: can see if you if you check for the movement,

505
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 1: you can see several of the back and forth allegations

506
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: along with criticism on both sides where people call the

507
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: current president Erdegon a despot, right or a dictator. So

508
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, on July fifteenth, just a little over

509
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: a year ago, now there this coup occurred. It was

510
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: led by a military faction operating outside the traditional chain

511
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: of command. And you know a lot of revolutions occur

512
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: when some like minded higher up military officials get together,

513
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: maybe with a wealthy aristocratic family on the outs or something.

514
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: They want to have the promise that if they succeed,

515
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: they will have support, you know what I mean? Yeah, exactly,

516
00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: because it's it's much harder to stabilize and main tainous

517
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: a country, you know. It's it's it's still really hard

518
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: to overthrow a status quo, but it's much more difficult

519
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: to institute a new and lasting one. So destroying something's easy,

520
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: building something up as much more different. Yeah, yeah, that's

521
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: that's a really good way to say it. So the

522
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 1: when this coup occurs, ord Gone and COUM believe that

523
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: this was entirely done or orchestrated by the Ghula movement

524
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: and therefore by Ghulan himself. So in the days and

525
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: weeks after the coup there was a massive crackdown purges

526
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: affecting all entities affiliated with the Ghulan movement individuals, businesses,

527
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: but bigger than that newspapers, schools, universities, and these are

528
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: now known as the two thousand and sixteen to twenty

529
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: seventeen purges. It's interesting you mentioned newspapers because one of

530
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: the thing that's kind of looked looked into by my

531
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: mom is they were all herself and all the other

532
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: kind of charter trips were all taken to this one

533
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: newspaper in Turkey that was very it's a very large newspaper,

534
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 1: but it's very much kind of in the Ghoulan sphere,

535
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: and that was one of the first ones that was

536
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: purged after the revolution failed. Let's let's look at some

537
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: numbers here, because this is some stuff that that definitely

538
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: caught me by surprise. During the coup, over three hundred

539
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: people were killed, more than two thousand were injured. Multiple

540
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: government buildings were bombed from the air, so whomever was

541
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: orchestrating this did have access to military aircraft and there

542
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: were mass arrests afterwards, which we mentioned. At least forty

543
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: thousand people were detained, and at least ten thousand soldiers,

544
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: almost three thousand judges, fifteen thousand educators and they were suspended,

545
00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: and twenty one thousand teachers working in private institutions had

546
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: their licenses revoked, probably because they taught at charter school

547
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: the charter schools in the region Yea and to date,

548
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: just on the basis of alleged connections to Gulan over

549
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: one hundred thousand people have been arrested or fired, and

550
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: this was all happy. You know, It's it's kind of crazy, right.

551
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: You were part of this unknowingly, and if I'm not mistaken,

552
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: that ended up involving quite a bit more than you

553
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: would have expected at this point or that you bargained

554
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: for overall. Right, Absolutely, we're going to get into that

555
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: after one more quick little ad break and we're back. So, Sam,

556
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: you had been out of this school for a time now,

557
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: a couple of years, that's right. I was well into

558
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: high school, right, and one day you get a knock

559
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 1: on the door, and the door was two FBI special

560
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: agents and they wanted to talk with me and my

561
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: mom about our experience with this whole, this whole charter

562
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 1: school chain. It seems like they were very interested. Now

563
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: of course, um, they told me when they left they

564
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: would either confirm or deny that they were even there.

565
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: But I can say that they were there, and they

566
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: either they were or are still investigating the whole charter

567
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: school thing. But the last thing you expect is to

568
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: have the FBI knock on your door. I can tell

569
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: you that, yeah, especially because you know you're you're stand

570
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: up kid, at least at that point, you know, I've

571
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: committed no federal crimes. You've committed no federal crimes or

572
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: state crimes to my knowledge, all around mensch you are

573
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: into like pop culture and stuff, and so to have

574
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 1: the FBI come and knock and it's got to be

575
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: on one level terrifying but also another level maybe kind

576
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: of cool. Oh, it's it's very much both. On one hand,

577
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 1: it's just it's like, have I ever done anything lot

578
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: wrong in my life? No? But what if I did,

579
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: I didn't know it totally? Oh yeah, I have stress

580
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: dreams about that kind of stuff, where like the FBI

581
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: has been tracking me for years for something I did

582
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:05,959
Speaker 1: that I didn't even know. We've been looking at your

583
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 1: Amazon purchases and it turns out you can build an

584
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 1: atomic weapon, right, Or they're like precriming me where they're like,

585
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: you know, putting together based on my browsing habits and

586
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: my Amazon by purchases. They know that I will eventually

587
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: commit a horrible crime. And that's that's a new oather.

588
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 1: That's that's topic for another episode, But that's common in

589
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,760
Speaker 1: this country. Um, you're right, that would be a great episode.

590
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: But that's common in this country for even the most

591
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 1: squeaky clean, law abiding person to feel that little, that

592
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: little knife, that stab of fear when they see, for instance,

593
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,359
Speaker 1: the lights on a on a cop car turn on

594
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 1: behind you. I mean not even that. If I'm just

595
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 1: driving along the road and a cop car passes me,

596
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: I know, I immediately slow down a little bit and

597
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 1: square up in my driving ten and two. Yeah, So

598
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 1: the take it to the next logical extreme. What was

599
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: it like when thebi and what kind of stuff do

600
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 1: they talk to you about? If you can even go

601
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: into that, I can go into a little bit, but um,

602
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: we're right. When they came into the door, I absolutely

603
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 1: felt like I was underdressed. I felt I was very

604
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: much squared up, like yes, sir, yes, ma'am, got a

605
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: steering wheel, put your hands on exactly, exactly, send to

606
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 1: the seat. But well, a lot of what they asked

607
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 1: me about was basically the about the teachers who went there,

608
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 1: about the kind of quality of the school. Um, anything

609
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: that I noticed was off some of the places I

610
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: went to when I was in my on the Turkish trip,

611
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:30,360
Speaker 1: stuff like that. M And were there any questions that

612
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 1: they asked that specifically stuck out to you as a

613
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 1: strange line of questioning. I think the strangest line of

614
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 1: questioning is asking how I felt about the school, how

615
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: I felt about the thing. It was very much trying

616
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 1: to get the kind of a personal read on my experience,

617
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,280
Speaker 1: if I was hiding anything, if if I I honestly

618
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 1: think they were trying to see if I was indoctrinated,

619
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: because I know one of the kind of tasting the

620
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: tactics they did. Now I've gotten this from some of

621
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: my friends, and I feel like some of the stuff

622
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: is a feeling I have. I've got no evidence to

623
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,319
Speaker 1: back it up, but I think some of our test

624
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,319
Speaker 1: scores were inflated. Now I can't confirm any of that,

625
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 1: but I also know some of my friends where they're like,

626
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 1: they thought they did well on a test, they did poorly,

627
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: and they're like, here, come do some tutoring with us.

628
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 1: They tutor them, Oh, look now you're getting good grades.

629
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: Even though if you actually check the stuff back and forth,

630
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: guess what it was the same. It was the same, wide,

631
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 1: same answers. Well, because it makes them seem like they

632
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 1: are they can absolutely help you. Then it also adds

633
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 1: more stuff too. It's kind of like the thing with

634
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 1: the projects at the school that gets so much a

635
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: teacher help. Yeah, it gets a lot more machine, It

636
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 1: gets more renowned to the school, which leads to more awards,

637
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: which leads to more state money and to more people

638
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: who want legitimate school exactly. Ultimately, ultimately it's a lot

639
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:51,760
Speaker 1: more legitimate. If anything, it seems a little bit culty.

640
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 1: If I had to say anything else some of the stuff. Now,

641
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 1: I again, I need to make this very clear. I've

642
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: had some of the best teachers I've ever had. There

643
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: A lot of them weren't Turkish teachers, and even the

644
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 1: ones that weren't were they were all very good. But

645
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: I didn't it's kind of hard not to ignore some

646
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,320
Speaker 1: of these things after you see the whole big picture.

647
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: So do you I mean, agave, we're in the realm

648
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 1: of conjecture here, but do you think this is the

649
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 1: kind of thing where this gentleman started this chain of

650
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: schools with good intentions and then gradually started thinking, huh,

651
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: maybe I could use it for this because even the

652
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,720
Speaker 1: foundation is super solid and it's a real school. I

653
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: bother making it that good and like actually paying such

654
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: attention to detail. You know, the most fronts. That's why

655
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,399
Speaker 1: they call it a front because there's nothing there. It's

656
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: just like a facade. Right. Well, I think that's kind

657
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: of the point, because it's more than just a front.

658
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: I feel like if you do anything, it's something that

659
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: that's kind of part of the legitimacy. And I think

660
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 1: it goes to that quote I said earlier. It wants

661
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: people to kind of infiltrate because even if even afterwards,

662
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: I definitely have a lot more positive view on Turkey

663
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:03,760
Speaker 1: than I did before, even with all this stuff that happened,

664
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 1: I definitely have a greater appreciation for it. So if

665
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 1: you do things right and you actually start converting people,

666
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,720
Speaker 1: when I converting seems like it's a charge way, sure,

667
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: but trying to get people acclimated to Turkey, to their

668
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 1: culture to liking you that, I think that's basically it's

669
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 1: a I think it's a have your cake and eat

670
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,919
Speaker 1: it too sort of situation. Yeah, it's a soft diplomacy,

671
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 1: which is a core part of many strategies from different

672
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 1: state actors in China. China, for instance, has in the

673
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 1: US the Confucius Institutes, which are all intent on educating

674
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,720
Speaker 1: people regard educating people in the West regarding Chinese culture.

675
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: I do want to say before anybody writes in on this,

676
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 1: that Gulan himself claimed the recording he is on He

677
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 1: is on record. You can hear a recording of Gulan

678
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 1: saying the quotation that Sam read at the top. Gulan,

679
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 1: for his part, claims that the recording was all which

680
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: we know, we know can happen. But it's the easiest

681
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 1: thing in the world without its sounding. I mean, it's

682
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 1: getting better. Like I think there's like a I want

683
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: to say, Adobe was kind of shopping around or like

684
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: showing off at some conferences this like photoshop for audio thing, Yeah,

685
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: where you can piece together, you know, and I'm an

686
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 1: audio engineer. Yeah, and I don't have that. Yeah, but

687
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 1: I heard some examples and it's pretty wild, but certainly

688
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 1: not wasn't available here. I think the thing for me

689
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 1: about the whole thing is the message of definitely tolerance

690
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 1: and getting kids excited about math and science is very good,

691
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 1: and it faces volu that's very nice, But I think

692
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: that I don't really feel like that it's that genuine

693
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: for the basic reason because when we went and asked

694
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: my principle at the time, oh are you related to

695
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 1: these other charter schools. He said, no, we're completely unaffiliated.

696
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: But even with a few Google searches, we found out

697
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: that's not true. If they would have just acknowledged there, like, yeah,

698
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 1: we're part of the largest network of charter schools in

699
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 1: americ over one hundred fifty schools, we probably would have ended.

700
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,359
Speaker 1: They're like, oh, that's fine. But the fact that they

701
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 1: are trying to hide it, and for good reason, because

702
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 1: it holds all these things about double dealing and contributions

703
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 1: and the kind of moving money around, I feel like

704
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: that's the kind of part for me that kind of

705
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 1: tarnishes the whole experience. So it makes me a little

706
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 1: bit paranoid about it, for lack of a better word. Well,

707
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 1: in the course of our off air research when you

708
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: first hipped us to this, one of the things we

709
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:34,399
Speaker 1: found was that, according to the BBC, his MET has

710
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: no formal structure, no visible organization, no official members or

711
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 1: at least no published list. Yet it may have grown

712
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: into the world's largest network of its kind, the world's

713
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 1: largest Muslim network. His Met, by the way, it simply

714
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 1: means service, and of course their official line is they

715
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: promote work for the common good. I'd like to explore

716
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,720
Speaker 1: some of the finger pointing that happened after the coupe,

717
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: because the story is kind of weird, all right. So

718
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 1: there's a political party called the AKP closely associated with Urtigon,

719
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: and in the aftermath of the failed coup attempt, Gulan

720
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 1: came out and said, I condemn in the strongest terms

721
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: the attempted military coup in Turkey. He eamiled the New

722
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: York Times, and he said, you know, government should be

723
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 1: won through free and fair elections, not force. And he's

724
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 1: he's praying for everyone. I'm paraphrasing a little. He says,

725
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: as someone who suffered under multiple military coups during the

726
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 1: past five decades, it's especially insulting to be accused of

727
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: having any link to such an attempt. I categorically deny

728
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 1: such accusations. President Urdigon contacted the United States when he

729
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 1: wanted Gulan extradited, and he said, I call on you

730
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 1: again after there was a coup attempt. Extradite this man

731
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania to Turkey. If we are strategic partners or

732
00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: model partners, do what is necessary. And then a late

733
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:04,879
Speaker 1: the Labor Minister of Turkey fellow fellow by the name

734
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 1: of Suliman Solu claimed that America was behind the coup.

735
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: That's why I think it gets interesting, because we know

736
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 1: that this country, regardless of whatever you feel your political

737
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 1: or spiritual ideology is, it is inarguable that this country

738
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 1: has instituted multiple underground coups for our own benefit. Yeah

739
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: from maybe not even just to destabilize the government. That's

740
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 1: like a competing on some any number of levels or whatever. Yeah,

741
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 1: we're not nice. Parts of us aren't nice. I mean,

742
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 1: but we are willing to go that extra mile to

743
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:46,439
Speaker 1: make this happen. It's not a stretch. This accusation rings true,

744
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 1: and they know they knew it. I'm sure. Yeah, it's

745
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 1: like there's enough evidence out there that's like, yeah, yeah,

746
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 1: we do that. Of course we would. And in August,

747
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 1: almost a year ago exactly now, a former US diplomat,

748
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 1: a fellow name James Jeffrey, who was the ambassador to

749
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: Turkey from two thousand and eight till twenty and ten,

750
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: pointed the finger back at the Ghulaw movement and he said,

751
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 1: they have infiltrated, They made some infiltration at least in

752
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 1: the military that I'm aware of. They had extreme infiltration

753
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 1: into the police and judiciary, and he says very clear

754
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 1: that significant segment of the bureaucracy in Turkey was infiltrated

755
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: and had their allegiance to the movement, and that's unacceptable,

756
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 1: it's extremely dangerous. It's highly likely that that led to

757
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 1: the coup. So the FBI investigates this innocent high school

758
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 1: kid stuff that happened two years ago, on the off

759
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 1: chance that he became a sleeper agent. I mean, that's

760
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: the kind of feeling I got from a little bit there.

761
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: They were. Now, maybe it's just me and this is

762
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: my only first and only interaction with FBI agents, but

763
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 1: they were, of course very nice, very polite, but they

764
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 1: did seem a little bit suspicious of me, which I

765
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 1: found weird because it was my mom and my own

766
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 1: kind of kind of digging into this whole thing and

767
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: starting contacting documentary people and people writing books, journalists, So

768
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 1: it seemed a little odd. So now we reached this

769
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: point where tensions are escalating between the US and between Turkey,

770
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 1: and this stuff has obviously been simmering for a while.

771
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: This was when Barack Obama was still president, and Urdigon

772
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: wrote specifically to President Obama to ask for the extradition

773
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,919
Speaker 1: of Gulan, and then the US government said, we will

774
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 1: need evidence of his guilt before any extradition, and then

775
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,919
Speaker 1: Urdigon brought out some of the dirty laundry and said,

776
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 1: when you asked for the return of a terrorist, we

777
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: did not ask for documentation. Just give them to us.

778
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,879
Speaker 1: Let us put them on trial. And at this at

779
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:07,720
Speaker 1: this point, oh and the US officially said, any reports

780
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 1: that we had any previous knowledge of a coup attempt,

781
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: or that there was any US involvement in it, that

782
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: we were anything other than entirely supportive of Turkish democracy

783
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: are completely false, unequivocally false. So the last missing pieces

784
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: of puzzle here is like who if? Because there clearly

785
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 1: was a coup, So who does Gulan think was responsible?

786
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: If it wasn't his movement, it wasn't his met he said,

787
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: he said that Urdugon did it, that it was a

788
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 1: false flag. What do you think about that? I think

789
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 1: that's very interesting. I think that's on one hand, you

790
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 1: definitely do seem erda Wan does does seem to be

791
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: kind of consolidating power. And I know there were some

792
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 1: accusations about their connections before and then suddenly all this

793
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 1: dirty laundry about him suddenly came out like, oh, look,

794
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: Erdauan and his son had been hiding millions of dollars

795
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 1: in shoeboxes in their home. That's strange. Who found that out? Oh,

796
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 1: it seemed to be this one newspaper that has connection

797
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 1: to Gulan. So it does seem like it could be

798
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: a false flag trying to remove them. Another hand, it

799
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: could be it did seem like the coup, from what

800
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 1: I understand, wasn't full. They were discovered early on, so

801
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 1: they just tried to rush it like, let's hope we

802
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 1: can still make it work. So maybe it was just,

803
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 1: I know, on using the best of a bad situation.

804
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 1: But let's say it was Gulan for this kind of

805
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: just hypothetical. What does the United States know about that?

806
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 1: Because at this point, the United States generally likes putting

807
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: people in power who are stabilizing factors and who will

808
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: allow us to be strategic partners against Russia and other

809
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 1: kind of large powers in the region. So the thing is,

810
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,800
Speaker 1: it's something that's sponsored by the large parts of the government,

811
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 1: is just kind of a smaller project of another hand,

812
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 1: the left hand not speaking to the right hand, who knows.

813
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: That's kind of the real kind of question. But it

814
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 1: does seem interesting though, because though Gulan does definitely seem

815
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 1: to be soft power rather than revolution in the streets,

816
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 1: and that's the thing. It just doesn't fit the profile.

817
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 1: But maybe that's just because he hasn't tried before. Yeah,

818
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 1: I mean, we talked about where his money comes from

819
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 1: and like his background. That's an excellent question and thank you,

820
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: thank you for getting us on that. So we do

821
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 1: need to learn a little bit more about this person

822
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: that we have. We have painted as a shadowy figure,

823
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 1: but we must say to be fair, regularly rights to

824
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 1: media institutions and maintains his innocence. So he was born

825
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 1: in nineteen forty one in April. He's a preacher, a former,

826
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 1: a mom, a writer, obviously involved in politics. There's still

827
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 1: some confusion over his birth dates, so some people say

828
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: thirty eight and some people say forty one, nineteen thirty eight,

829
00:47:56,200 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 1: nineteen forty one. Some critics say that the date he

830
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: gives for nineteen thirty eight of ten November is propaganda

831
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:09,760
Speaker 1: because it's the same day that the founder of modern

832
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 1: Turkey out of Turk died. So there's also possibly just

833
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 1: the fact that this would have been a time when

834
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: people have physical records, and if a physical record was

835
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 1: destroyed then it's just word of mouth at that point,

836
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 1: which happens more often than you might think. So his

837
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 1: father was also in a mom and he gave his

838
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 1: first sermon when he was fourteen. People consider him sort

839
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 1: of a Turkish nationalist aligned with religion. In one of

840
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 1: the great debates, or one of the tensions behind this movement,

841
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 1: is that modern Turkey is embroiled and obsessed with a

842
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 1: question are we a secular country or are we a

843
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 1: religious country? Are we a democracy? Are we a theocracy?

844
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 1: And the Turkish military is often stepped in to keep

845
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: the country quote unquote secular. So to people who would

846
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: prefer it to be a secular country, any form of

847
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 1: theocracy or religiously guided government, no matter how mild or

848
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:24,239
Speaker 1: how friendly, is still going to be incredibly dangerous. And

849
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,319
Speaker 1: I think you can't overlook the part where Turkey has

850
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: been trying to be entered into the EU for a

851
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 1: long time and this stuff just the more that these

852
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,799
Speaker 1: kind of embroidered battles happen, the less likely that it's

853
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,280
Speaker 1: going to be entered with the EU, but it's still

854
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 1: a very strong and important part of NATO. M Yeah,

855
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,720
Speaker 1: that's true, NATO and the EU being separate. And speaking

856
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 1: of Gulan's willingness to speak to the press, he actually

857
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: did an interview on NPR with Robert Siegel this month,

858
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:57,720
Speaker 1: July eleventh. Quote. To this day, I have stood against

859
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 1: all coups. I suffered during the military intervention of May

860
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 1: twenty seven, nineteen sixty and then again on March twelfth,

861
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:07,240
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one, and again on September twelfth, nineteen eighty

862
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 1: and I was targeted February twenty eighth, nineteen ninety seven.

863
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: My respect for the military asside I have always been

864
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:16,320
Speaker 1: against interventions. I don't know the people who attempted the

865
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 1: July fifteenth coup. They might know me, They may have

866
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 1: attended some lectures. I have no idea. Thousands of people

867
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 1: have come here to the retreat to visit, among them

868
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 1: fifty members of parliament, former President Abdullah Gull, former Foreign Minister.

869
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 1: I'm at Dabutagalu for this reason. Many people might know me,

870
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 1: but I don't know them. One other thing is I

871
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 1: live here thousands of miles away from Turkey. Some soldiers

872
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 1: decided to do the coup, and despite the many questions

873
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: and suspicions that remain of the government account of what

874
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 1: transpired that night, if such claims are still taken to

875
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 1: be credible, I shudder an astonishment. But if I were

876
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 1: to humor that idea, if any one among those soldiers

877
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 1: had called me and told me of their plan, I

878
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 1: would tell them, you are committing murder. So that's pretty explicit,

879
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 1: absolutely and specific. There's also despite the fact that the

880
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 1: Turkish government officially designated the Ghulan Movement or his MET

881
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 1: as a terrorist organization, there's at this point it doesn't

882
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 1: seem like there's direct evidence linking the man himself Gulan

883
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: to anything. Well. I think that's kind of part of

884
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 1: the point that that's kind of the strength of the

885
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 1: network is that it doesn't acknowledge each other. It'll work

886
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:35,320
Speaker 1: with each other. They know they can identify other members,

887
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 1: but they won't acknowledge their kind of togetherness. They're like

888
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:43,320
Speaker 1: cells almost terroristic light. But that's the way and what

889
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 1: I think, when I think needs to be known this

890
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:50,359
Speaker 1: a lot of this isn't necessarily it's not something that's

891
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: trying to attack the United states or anything dramatic like that.

892
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 1: At the end of the day, it's something that's basically

893
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 1: trying to get both physical capital and political capital wherever

894
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 1: it goes. And I think the only the only real

895
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 1: problem that a lot of people have with it is

896
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 1: with how shady it does and the illegal practices that

897
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,319
Speaker 1: it promotes. If it's just the if it follows the

898
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 1: stated goal of interfaith dialogue and a promotion of math

899
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: and science education, I don't think anyone has problems with that.

900
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 1: I think it's the real problem with how it's using

901
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,800
Speaker 1: it to move people and money in and out of

902
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 1: the country, right, Yeah, and existing in some ways in

903
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 1: a disingenuous gray area. Right. That's you know, that's a

904
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 1: great point because regardless of how somebody may agree or

905
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:48,239
Speaker 1: disagree with the activities here, there does seem to be

906
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 1: financial corruption at the at the minimum. I'm sam. I

907
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:58,359
Speaker 1: would want to ask, what do you think is the

908
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 1: future for these charter academies and have you written to

909
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:06,280
Speaker 1: any of your former teachers written? I am in contact

910
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:09,760
Speaker 1: with one of my former teachers. She's actually started another

911
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 1: charter schools you mentioned earlier. Yeah, she started another charter

912
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 1: school and is trying to get that up off the

913
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:19,800
Speaker 1: ground to basically be just be like a follow what

914
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 1: the original point of that school was to be a

915
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:27,359
Speaker 1: math and science academy. It promoted for youth for the youth,

916
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 1: and I think that that might be something that continues on.

917
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:33,359
Speaker 1: There's a lot of fighting going back and forth on

918
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 1: whether the schools here would remain like they have a

919
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:40,359
Speaker 1: kindergarten through high school right now, and it was gonna

920
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,320
Speaker 1: see if they're can remain charter schools or not. Well,

921
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:45,319
Speaker 1: after back and forth and seeing a lot of the

922
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 1: kind of stuff that goes on, the they lost the

923
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 1: charter and they moved to a private institution. So I

924
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: feel like that the charter schools are definitely becoming more popular,

925
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 1: but is more and more money goes into them, I

926
00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 1: feel like this would be more scrutiny. So either the

927
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:02,799
Speaker 1: schools are going to have to shape up or they're

928
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 1: going to have to go into private institutions. My only

929
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:07,839
Speaker 1: concern is, and now I know this is this goes

930
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 1: again into the kind of allegory. There's a lot of

931
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:14,360
Speaker 1: the money that goes into gaining political support. There's a

932
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 1: lot of it that goes into saying, look where charter

933
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 1: schools were exactly what you want. There's been a lot

934
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 1: of times where they take people on good will trips

935
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 1: to Turkey, like the like the one that I went

936
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: on and let me it was a very nice trip.

937
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 1: And if there's a lot of politicians that all they

938
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 1: sees the test scores, all they see is the various awards,

939
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 1: they go on a trip to Turkey. Oh, of course,

940
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,880
Speaker 1: why wouldn't I support this? This is very nice and

941
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 1: it follows my political base, and I might get some

942
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,360
Speaker 1: political donations out of it that might sustain it. It

943
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 1: just really kind of depends on the zones, and the

944
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 1: more awareness of this, the better keep people honest and

945
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 1: stuff like that. But otherwise I think it's going to

946
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 1: go on a state by state by basis. I can

947
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:00,920
Speaker 1: still see there's definitely a lot of room for growth,

948
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 1: but I don't know if it's sustainable. No, what do

949
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 1: you what do you think about this whole situation? I

950
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 1: think it's really interesting. Um, I don't think we have

951
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:13,839
Speaker 1: enough information to make any definitive final conclusions. I mean,

952
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:21,840
Speaker 1: you know, his defense was so strongly worded and cut

953
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 1: and dry that I couldn't help but be a little

954
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 1: bit taken in by it that could just be the

955
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 1: work of a very charismatic con man. You know, I

956
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:34,439
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, I think the whole I'm more

957
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 1: fascinated with if it wasn't this than what was it? Yeah,

958
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:40,799
Speaker 1: like it opens up more a lot more questions, Like

959
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 1: the whole thing is a real quagmire. And with the

960
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:46,080
Speaker 1: way that there's a lot of censorship and there's a

961
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 1: lot of conflicting stories even from people. There's people who

962
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 1: are on the ground who who still protests the government

963
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 1: or for the government that it's it's very unclear what

964
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 1: was going on in that situation, and it's still kind

965
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:03,399
Speaker 1: of But here's the thing I find interesting even here

966
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 1: talking to others. My parents have talked to other parents who,

967
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 1: even after it's very much clearly shown the link, a

968
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 1: lot of their parents are like, who cares who? As

969
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 1: long as I'm getting a good education from my kid,

970
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:17,480
Speaker 1: who cares what they're doing with the government's money. That's

971
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 1: what I was saying a minute ago. It's like it

972
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 1: seems like everything was in place, and it was a

973
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:26,399
Speaker 1: positive experience and you did get what you signed up for,

974
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:29,240
Speaker 1: at least on the surface, and you learned Turkish dance,

975
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:34,200
Speaker 1: it's true. You should see me in the dresses twirl amazingly,

976
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:39,560
Speaker 1: well sadly, for everybody who is out there in the

977
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:44,400
Speaker 1: audience today. This is an audio podcast, look at him, Twirl?

978
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:49,520
Speaker 1: Why should we go? So? We hope that you have

979
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:53,879
Speaker 1: enjoyed this episode. This is something that Noel and Matt

980
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:57,400
Speaker 1: and I had never heard of, and we really appreciate

981
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 1: you taking the time to be our first I think

982
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 1: you are our first human intern. Did you know that? Well,

983
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of disparaging towards the NSA agent

984
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 1: of the Sure, well that's true, but then we had

985
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 1: the puppet and the skeleton. Skeleton Yeah right, But I'm

986
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 1: just glad I was able to come on the show,

987
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 1: I was able to tell my story and you weren't

988
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 1: immediately dismissive of the whole crazy affair. Well, uh, we

989
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 1: are all about finding ourselves in situations where the truth

990
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,920
Speaker 1: is stranger than fiction. If you would like to learn

991
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 1: more about the story of his met, the Ghulon movement,

992
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 1: and Sam's adventures therein, we're also both very glad you're okay,

993
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 1: then do check out a documentary called Killing Ed. Killing

994
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 1: Ed is this uh, very interesting documentary that It definitely

995
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 1: has its perspective and it's very very strongly coming in there,

996
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 1: but it has a lot of really good information, a

997
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 1: lot of very good quotes, and it really gets to

998
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 1: the heart of a lot of people who were just

999
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,680
Speaker 1: like me in the experience. And I feel like just

1000
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:05,120
Speaker 1: seeing the different kind of perspectives and hearing the first

1001
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 1: hand accounts that I think is very important. And it

1002
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:13,160
Speaker 1: remains the only independently produced documentary to investigate the movement's

1003
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 1: apparent involvement in the school system and possible political corruption.

1004
00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:22,440
Speaker 1: But let's say political activities and the alleged connections to

1005
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 1: the coup attempt, And this brings up a whole other

1006
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 1: kind of cannon warms with the whole charter school thing

1007
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 1: in the first place. There's a movie called Waiting for Superman.

1008
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 1: I think it's called that's about the implementation of charter

1009
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:35,760
Speaker 1: schools and how it seems very appealing on the surface,

1010
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:39,080
Speaker 1: but there's a lot of odd politics involved in that

1011
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 1: system in general. And now we're seeing, you know, with

1012
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 1: again the current administration, the idea of school choice sort

1013
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 1: of a misnomer. It doesn't you don't really have It's

1014
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 1: almost like the choice aspect of it is sort of

1015
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 1: a little bit of a red herring kind of So

1016
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 1: I don't know. I almost think we should revisit charter

1017
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:02,000
Speaker 1: schools specifically and to look a little deeper into that. Yeah,

1018
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 1: and in the meantime, we are going to head out today.

1019
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 1: We will return next week with something equally bizarre but

1020
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:14,840
Speaker 1: probably also completely different. We do hope you enjoyed this episode,

1021
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 1: and most importantly, we hope you write in today and

1022
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 1: let us know what you think about this movement, what

1023
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 1: you think about charter schools in general. Did you go

1024
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 1: to one of these schools? Do you have anything to

1025
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 1: add to Sam's perspective? If you're one of my classmates

1026
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:32,360
Speaker 1: from twenty ten, let me know, send me a Facebook message,

1027
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 1: we'll talk. Wait, you were in middle school in twenty ten.

1028
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:38,800
Speaker 1: That's right, Oh man, we gotta go. All right, So

1029
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 1: apparently Noel and Tristan and I have to go get

1030
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 1: the Early Bird Special somewhere. And that's the end of

1031
00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:51,560
Speaker 1: this classic episode. If you have any thoughts or questions

1032
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:55,080
Speaker 1: about this episode, you can get into contact with us

1033
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 1: in a number of different ways. One of the best

1034
00:59:57,360 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 1: is to give us a call. Our number is one

1035
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 1: eight three three stdwy t K. If you don't want

1036
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:05,320
Speaker 1: to do that, you can send us a good old

1037
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 1: fashioned email. We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff

1038
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 1: they don't want you to know is a production of iHeartRadio.

1039
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:18,320
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1040
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.