WEBVTT - Part One: Operation Nemesis and Armenian Resistance to Genocide

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<v Speaker 1>Cool Zone Media.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, and welcome to Cool People did Cool Stuff. You're

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<v Speaker 2>a weekly reminder that sometimes when bad stuff happens, people

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<v Speaker 2>use that opportunity to do good stuff in response to

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<v Speaker 2>the aforementioned bad stuff. I'm your host, Margaret Kildroy, and

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<v Speaker 2>with me today is my guest, James Stout.

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<v Speaker 3>Hi James. Hi, Margaret. I'm happy to be here.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm happy you're here too, and I'm happy that Sophie's here.

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<v Speaker 2>Who's our producer?

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<v Speaker 3>Hi Sophie.

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<v Speaker 1>Hi mag Hi Hi James. Hi.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm also happy that Daniel is not here. No, that

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<v Speaker 2>comes across badly. Our audio engineer is Daniel, who is

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<v Speaker 2>not here, but we'll hear this.

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<v Speaker 1>Hi Daniel, Daniel, You're always here in our hearts. Hi Daniel.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Everywhere I go I carry down in my heart. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Our theme music was written for us by un woman

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<v Speaker 2>and this week is d next week because it's a

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<v Speaker 2>four parter, because it started as a two parter and

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<v Speaker 2>then it didn't fit. Because it's a big thing that

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<v Speaker 2>we're talking about, but it's an I can't sell this

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<v Speaker 2>as exciting. It's mostly bad, but there's good stuff within it.

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<v Speaker 2>This week and next week we're going to talk about

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<v Speaker 2>one of the least discussed worst things that has happened

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<v Speaker 2>in the history of the world, the Armenian genocide, And

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to talk about the well, the scrappy, poorly

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<v Speaker 2>funded Armenians who set out to and successfully killed basically

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<v Speaker 2>everyone responsible for that particular nightmare, which is an impressive feat. Yeah, James,

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<v Speaker 2>I know the answer to this question because I already

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<v Speaker 2>asked you, have you heard much about the Armenian Genocide.

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<v Speaker 3>I've had a little bit. Yeah. I used to teach

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<v Speaker 3>a world's history course at the University of California and

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<v Speaker 3>we talked a little bit about the Armenian genocide, and

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<v Speaker 3>I was kind of shocked how most folks coming into

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<v Speaker 3>that course who are really genuinely unaware that anything bad

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<v Speaker 3>had happened to the Armenian people.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I knew the words Armenian genocide. I mean I

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<v Speaker 2>knew the cliff notes of what had happened, right, but

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't I didn't know as much as i've known.

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<v Speaker 1>Now.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, how about Operation Nemesis. You heard Operation Nemesis?

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<v Speaker 3>Is this when they go about splatting all the people

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<v Speaker 3>who did the Armenian genocide.

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<v Speaker 2>There's so many there's yeah, yeah, yeah, can I do this?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah? This one is pretty cool. Ways to respond to

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<v Speaker 3>a genocide go not a bad one. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>It was just so cut and dry. I mean, there's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot, there's a lot that's going on, right, it's

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<v Speaker 2>the forethar we're going to talk about it. But like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>they're like, well, that can't happen. And and there's a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of stuff that came up during this that I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't realize that even like complicates it more. It wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>just revenge. It was actually political actions that had a

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<v Speaker 2>real and direct impact on people who are still living.

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<v Speaker 2>Because well, we'll get into it, yeah, because it's also

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<v Speaker 2>going to be a story about how socialist revolutionaries of

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<v Speaker 2>every stripe and the presence of women in general in

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<v Speaker 2>revolutionary struggle has been left out of the mainstream retellings

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<v Speaker 2>of this story, Like most of the mainstream retellings of

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<v Speaker 2>this story I've heard, basically come down to, Oh, some

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<v Speaker 2>middle class Armenian Americans with no connections to power at

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<v Speaker 2>all got together and killed all these people, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's meant to be like this like scrappy underdog

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<v Speaker 2>story because of the fact that they're like all detached,

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<v Speaker 2>but it removes them from a lineage of struggle and

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<v Speaker 2>actually specific actors who were involved. So I disagree with

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<v Speaker 2>that way of telling it. And I want to shout

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<v Speaker 2>out the Armenian listener who wrote to suggest this story,

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<v Speaker 2>so thank you. The shortest version of this story is

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<v Speaker 2>that in nineteen fifteen, a pseudo revolutionary nationalist Turkish force

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<v Speaker 2>called the Young Terms led a genocide of somewhere between

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<v Speaker 2>a million and two million Christians, particularly Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians.

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<v Speaker 2>The numbers are hotly contested. Mostly they're tracked separately by ethnicity,

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<v Speaker 2>but it was an absolute nightmare, and folks did not

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<v Speaker 2>take a line down, which brings me the question. I

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<v Speaker 2>feel like you two probably know more about modern political

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<v Speaker 2>media landscape. There's an influential group called the Young Turks

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<v Speaker 2>that's around.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, this is one of those things that, like I

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<v Speaker 3>if people aren't guessing from the way I speak, I

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<v Speaker 3>didn't grow up in the United States, and yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>get crazy, I did, I see? I just mainlined Harry

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<v Speaker 3>Potter movie. It's why I'm a terrible fucking person. That's

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<v Speaker 3>not true. I didn't grow up here and I wasn't

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<v Speaker 3>always like a heavy user of the Internet, like I'm

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<v Speaker 3>PULHDM now, but I remember having a distinct moment and

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<v Speaker 3>someone being like, oh, yeah, man, you check this thing out.

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<v Speaker 3>They called the Young Turks not but they called fucking

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<v Speaker 3>what And apparently it's this left liberal media network, which,

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<v Speaker 3>like unsurprised me, has terrible takes on things. I have

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<v Speaker 3>now become sadly very aware of how terrible they are.

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<v Speaker 3>But why what the fuck are you going for with that?

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<v Speaker 2>It? As best as I can understand, I have not

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<v Speaker 2>really consumed any of the Young Turks content, as best

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<v Speaker 2>as I could understand. If you're like kind of stuck

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<v Speaker 2>in a specific nationalist lens, you can ignore all of

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<v Speaker 2>the bad stuff and stick to like the like ten

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<v Speaker 2>minutes that the Young Turks in the eighteen nineties was

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<v Speaker 2>like vaguely progressive or something. But it's like naming your

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<v Speaker 2>media network the Nazi, Like if this is like yeah media.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's it's insane, Like it speaks I think to

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<v Speaker 3>the fact that people don't like when I would when

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<v Speaker 3>I would lecture about the Armenian genocide. If students who

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<v Speaker 3>are aware at all, they were aware through the medium

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<v Speaker 3>of the Kardashians, which is I know nothing else. I

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<v Speaker 3>know the Kardashian are educators about the Armenian genocide, and

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<v Speaker 3>I know that one of them is married to one

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<v Speaker 3>of the dudes from Blink one A two, And this

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<v Speaker 3>is all I know about them.

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<v Speaker 2>Two facts more than I had. But Sophie is probably

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<v Speaker 2>laughing at both of us for our pop culture.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Sophie's going to do her own podcast about.

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<v Speaker 2>Explain yea explaining pop culture to the people who live

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<v Speaker 2>under rocks on my network is that.

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<v Speaker 3>We found some anarchists and explained television to Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I would listen to that.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I would just do that. Should be really fun.

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<v Speaker 2>Do me some good, because I'm not proud of the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that I have no idea what's going on unless

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<v Speaker 2>it happened in eighteen ninety six.

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<v Speaker 3>In my points of reference stop at the end of

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<v Speaker 3>the Spanish Civil War and from there, I'm just going

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<v Speaker 3>off context on Twitter. Yeah, but no Young Turks really

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<v Speaker 3>shit name, Like if you didn't see like all of

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<v Speaker 3>their other terrible stuff coming, I feel like the name

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<v Speaker 3>should have been a massive clue.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but I mean I had never heard of the

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<v Speaker 2>Young Turks, the original movement, you know, even in as

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<v Speaker 2>little as I knew about anything else, and so I

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<v Speaker 2>assume that that's what it is, is that people just

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<v Speaker 2>don't know, you know, and like, Okay, this is really petty.

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<v Speaker 2>There's this Armenian composer that I learned about this week

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<v Speaker 2>named Gomitas, and it's transliterated different ways, different times, and

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<v Speaker 2>the music is so beautiful, and there's like all of

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<v Speaker 2>these like long importance is very important. Composer. He loses

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<v Speaker 2>his mind in the Armenian genocide. He's considered one of

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<v Speaker 2>the victims of the genocide. He lives for a while longer,

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<v Speaker 2>but he, you know, he loses his mind completely. And

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<v Speaker 2>my metal band has more listeners on Spotify than this guy.

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<v Speaker 2>And it was just this moment of like, oh, people

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<v Speaker 2>don't know about the past. Yeah, you know, I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>know about this guy. It's amazing. This is completely up

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<v Speaker 2>my alley. It is like crazy, dramatic, dark and beautiful.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm so into it. But this is start the story.

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<v Speaker 2>I was gonna say to get back to the story,

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<v Speaker 2>but we haven't started it yet. So just to make

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<v Speaker 2>soph happy, I'm going to start this story in the

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<v Speaker 2>year three hundred and one.

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<v Speaker 3>I have a triple digit Yeah, yeah, use a full

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<v Speaker 3>pot of ass.

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<v Speaker 2>The Armenian genocid was both ethnically and religiously motivated, but

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<v Speaker 2>especially religiously motivated. To say that Armenia is a Christian

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<v Speaker 2>nation is to understate the case dramatically. Armenia is the

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<v Speaker 2>first Christian nation in the history of the world in

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<v Speaker 2>the year three hundred and one, seventy nine years before Rome,

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<v Speaker 2>years before Ethiopia. I think Georgia was also up there.

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<v Speaker 2>In general, most Armenians belong to the Armenian Apostolic Church,

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<v Speaker 2>which is part of the Oriental Orthodox tradition, which is

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<v Speaker 2>distinct from the Eastern Orthodox tradition.

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<v Speaker 1>For us, I think it's a Postolic.

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<v Speaker 3>Apostolic Okaystal, you should include me getting that wrong and

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<v Speaker 3>you're fixing me, I think.

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<v Speaker 2>I think so fixing.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm like going back to going to Catholic church Apostolic.

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<v Speaker 2>And the reason it is an Apostolic church is because

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<v Speaker 2>tradition holds that it was Saint Jude, one of the

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<v Speaker 2>original apostles of Jesus, who traveled to Armenia and started

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<v Speaker 2>converting people. So it's real Christian. What exactly Armenia means

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<v Speaker 2>as a political entity versus as a people is a

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<v Speaker 2>complicated issue that has changed many, many times over the

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<v Speaker 2>course of history. There's a country called Armenia right now

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<v Speaker 2>in West Asia. It's sort of sandwich between Turkey and Georgia.

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<v Speaker 2>This is sort of a rump state. It is the

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<v Speaker 2>remnant of a larger previous state. Most modern Armenians have

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<v Speaker 2>a heritage that more directly comes from modern day Turkey,

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<v Speaker 2>as someone from Armenia explained to me, or rather an

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<v Speaker 2>Armenian person explained to me earlier today when I was

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<v Speaker 2>trying to sort out exactly this question. Armenia has been

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<v Speaker 2>doing this thing for thousands of years at this point,

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<v Speaker 2>but it hasn't always existed as a distinct political entity,

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<v Speaker 2>although the culture and the people have been around for

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<v Speaker 2>a very long time. But we're not going to track

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<v Speaker 2>Armenia as it comes and goes as a country. Instead,

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to talk about the Armenian people. And I

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<v Speaker 2>just want to point out that this is they are

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<v Speaker 2>in some ways distinct, right. I had always assumed, like, oh, Armenians,

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<v Speaker 2>those are people who live in Armenia, and that's my

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<v Speaker 2>white Americans, like Irish people are from the island of

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<v Speaker 2>Ireland and everything simple, you know.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Americans really often conflate like nation and state because

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<v Speaker 3>of the nature of American nationalism and stayhood. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>I think a lot of it. Even if you're from Europe,

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<v Speaker 3>break you can understand the Catalonius a nation but not

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<v Speaker 3>a state, and you have some kind of lived experience

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<v Speaker 3>of that. Yeah, And it can be again venturing into

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<v Speaker 3>things that I used to teach about when I would

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<v Speaker 3>still being a historian.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean that is part of why you were the guests.

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<v Speaker 2>I appreciate that you know a lot.

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<v Speaker 3>Of this stuff. Thank you. Yeah, people should read Benedict

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<v Speaker 3>Anderson if they want to know more about that.

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<v Speaker 2>So now we're going to jump over to a recent

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<v Speaker 2>friend of the pod, or at least recurring character of

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<v Speaker 2>the pod, the Ottoman Empire. And we talked a bunch

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<v Speaker 2>about the Ottoman Empire on the show. So I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>going to do a lot of it, but I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to drill down a little bit further into how it

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<v Speaker 2>worked as a multi ethnic empire. I was talking to

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<v Speaker 2>an Armenian Greek friend about doing this episode, and the

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<v Speaker 2>way he put it was basically like, look, I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>going to go to bat for empires in general, but

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<v Speaker 2>the Ottomans just wanted your taxes and didn't give a

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<v Speaker 2>fuck what else you did. And this is an exaggeration,

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<v Speaker 2>and we're going to talk about some of the exceptions

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<v Speaker 2>to that over all, Like as far as empires go, you.

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<v Speaker 3>Know, big Empire fan Margaret Kiljoy.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, they they're yeah, they're a minarchist, they're

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<v Speaker 2>not minarchist, but you know they do not begin that

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<v Speaker 2>discourse from da oh wow, let's start an Ottomans as

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<v Speaker 2>a discourse subject. I don't anyway. If anyone wants to

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<v Speaker 2>bring it up to me, just at me at.

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<v Speaker 3>I right, okay, on Twitter, and so she could be found.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the Ottoman Empire has a distinct advantage and a

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<v Speaker 2>distinct disadvantage of being on the Anatolian Peninsula aka Asia

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<v Speaker 2>Minor aka more or less what we call Turkey. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>this is an advantage because it's at the crossroads of

0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:53.120
<v Speaker 2>the world. It's at a disadvantage because it's at the

0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:58.080
<v Speaker 2>crossroads of the world. I am honestly not sure if

0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:02.680
<v Speaker 2>there's ever been a more invasion prone place. I got

0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:06.280
<v Speaker 2>really lost and sidetracked for a long time reading about

0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:09.760
<v Speaker 2>centuries of backs and forth of people invading this place.

0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:14.040
<v Speaker 2>My main takeaway was people really like invading this place.

0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:17.840
<v Speaker 2>The Turks, who are a distinct ethnic group from the

0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:23.280
<v Speaker 2>also generally Muslim Arabs, formed the Imperial Core, and they

0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:27.240
<v Speaker 2>won their empire by being seriously good warriors, highly mobile

0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:30.360
<v Speaker 2>cavalry with composite bows which are just basically like a

0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:34.079
<v Speaker 2>better bow technology, would go around and conquering and demanding

0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:36.960
<v Speaker 2>total surrender and bringing people into this empire. They ruled

0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:40.360
<v Speaker 2>huge trunks of Southwest Asia, North Africa, and Eastern Europe

0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:43.920
<v Speaker 2>for centuries. The Crusaders would like, comment and conquer shit,

0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:46.760
<v Speaker 2>and to be clear, the Crusaders also really like killing

0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:50.280
<v Speaker 2>non Catholic Christians. That crusaders not great people, not that

0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:52.360
<v Speaker 2>it would have been okay if they were. What I'm trying

0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.680
<v Speaker 2>to say is a crusader sucked. The Mongols would comment

0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:58.520
<v Speaker 2>and conquer shit. And the Ottoman Empire was at war

0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:02.400
<v Speaker 2>with Russia like basically always any pick a random year

0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:05.520
<v Speaker 2>and they were probably at war with Russia. But once

0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:08.760
<v Speaker 2>they conquered Constantinople from the Christians in fourteen fifty three

0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:12.680
<v Speaker 2>what's now Istanbul, they managed a pretty stable empire. That

0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:15.480
<v Speaker 2>particular battle was apparently very wild, like one day when

0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:17.760
<v Speaker 2>I've like completely lost all interest in everything else and

0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:20.200
<v Speaker 2>I'm entirely cynical. I'm absolutely going to run a history

0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:22.480
<v Speaker 2>podcast where I talk about people carrying boats over and

0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:24.040
<v Speaker 2>putting them down in harbors and shit.

0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:26.840
<v Speaker 3>But portage podcast.

0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:31.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, exactly, it's actually specifically going to be about portage, Sophie,

0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:34.400
<v Speaker 2>Is that all right? We could do that, the portage

0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:38.760
<v Speaker 2>portage cast always be portaging.

0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:45.840
<v Speaker 3>Putage, always carry a boat. I see, I love it? Yes, please,

0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:49.520
<v Speaker 3>I love it? Yeah, great, Wow, this is perfect We

0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:56.160
<v Speaker 3>Narco Ottomans did. Anyway, there are authoritary bucks.

0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:58.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to bat for them here, all right,

0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:01.400
<v Speaker 2>and now I'm about to say nice things about them.

0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:04.600
<v Speaker 2>As soon as they had constants noble, they were honestly

0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:08.160
<v Speaker 2>comparatively chill about it compared to the Christians. Jews and

0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:11.400
<v Speaker 2>Christians were immediately invited and sometimes maybe forced to come

0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:15.640
<v Speaker 2>live in the city alongside the Muslim population. By the

0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:17.920
<v Speaker 2>early five to fifteen hundreds, they kind of rule what's

0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:22.160
<v Speaker 2>the sort of known world? Because Western Europe is a

0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:25.120
<v Speaker 2>dinky little backwater, It is poor as fuck, and it

0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.560
<v Speaker 2>is not too politically powerful on the world stage at

0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:32.760
<v Speaker 2>this point. And what turned it around is that they

0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:36.360
<v Speaker 2>quote unquote discovered the New World and then robbed the

0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:38.920
<v Speaker 2>shit out of it. And it turns out that if

0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:40.800
<v Speaker 2>you rob a whole bunch of people of a bunch

0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:43.920
<v Speaker 2>of gold and enslave a bunch of people, you can

0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:45.840
<v Speaker 2>make money doing that.

0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:49.400
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, not the best way to make money, no, But

0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:51.400
<v Speaker 3>you know what the best way to make money is, James,

0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:54.840
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, I do bug it. It's inserting adverts for

0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:57.600
<v Speaker 3>brands that are not at all problematic and your podcast.

0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah exactly. I'm sure every thing that is about to

0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:03.760
<v Speaker 2>be advertised to you is something that I would wholeheartedly support.

0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:07.520
<v Speaker 2>Maybe maybe it's a pocket boat, like a tiny yeah,

0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:10.240
<v Speaker 2>so that you can carry it yep, brought to you

0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:11.200
<v Speaker 2>by pocketboat.

0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:12.280
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:14.320
<v Speaker 2>I actually really kind of want one of those, like

0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:15.840
<v Speaker 2>folding kayak or canoes.

0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:20.720
<v Speaker 3>I ate shit so fucking hard in an inflatable canoe

0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:24.400
<v Speaker 3>on the fifty July, like I got fucking tumbled. It's

0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:28.680
<v Speaker 3>broken half like it folded. Okay, so they're not the

0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:33.040
<v Speaker 3>most reliable canoes. I gave mine to the folding one.

0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:35.400
<v Speaker 3>It gave to my friend in Moab who also stuffed

0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:37.520
<v Speaker 3>it in a fucking pocket and it folded on him.

0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:40.360
<v Speaker 3>I like, oh, yeah, he could have drowned.

0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:41.920
<v Speaker 2>Was this like white watering or what?

0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:46.480
<v Speaker 3>So he was white watering? I was surf kayaking. Okay.

0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:50.640
<v Speaker 2>See my plan is to go to this like small

0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:55.240
<v Speaker 2>lake that has toads and put my dog in the

0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:59.560
<v Speaker 2>canoe and then put me in the canoe and move

0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:01.200
<v Speaker 2>around at like two miles an hour.

0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:05.440
<v Speaker 3>Okay, I think you're more of a target demo. Yeah,

0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:08.600
<v Speaker 3>you've made like kayak Twitter really mad now by conflating

0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:09.680
<v Speaker 3>kayak and canoe.

0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:12.600
<v Speaker 2>I know, although I do know how to do both,

0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:14.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm not very good at many sports. But I once

0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:19.320
<v Speaker 2>won a kayak race. Wow, And that's why I am

0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:22.280
<v Speaker 2>shelling for whatever comes next, because there wasn't a lot

0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:24.200
<v Speaker 2>of money in winning kayak race when I was thirteen.

0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:30.280
<v Speaker 2>Here you go, hi, Margaret Kiljoy. Here boy, the world

0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:31.480
<v Speaker 2>sure is a mess right now?

0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:32.000
<v Speaker 3>Huh.

0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:34.199
<v Speaker 2>Seems like every day there are more and more reasons

0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:36.840
<v Speaker 2>to get out into the streets and protest. That's why

0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:40.080
<v Speaker 2>when I get arrested, there's only one strategy, I trust.

0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:43.359
<v Speaker 2>I shut the fuck up. I say, I would like

0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:45.560
<v Speaker 2>to remain silent. I would like to talk to my lawyer,

0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:48.240
<v Speaker 2>and then I shut the fuck up. In the United

0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:51.600
<v Speaker 2>States of America, it's constitutionally protected and recommended by the

0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:57.480
<v Speaker 2>National Lawyers Guild. That's shut thg f u c k

0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:05.720
<v Speaker 2>up once again, Sahu t thche fuc k up, because

0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:08.240
<v Speaker 2>you can't talk yourself out of custody, but you can

0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:09.840
<v Speaker 2>talk yourself into a conviction.

0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:13.679
<v Speaker 4>Providing identification to law enforcement required in some states and situations,

0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:16.720
<v Speaker 4>giving them an address expedient in most circumstances. Never discuss

0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:18.840
<v Speaker 4>the events leading to arrest with anyone except your lawyer, doctor,

0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:21.600
<v Speaker 4>or therapist. Posting pictures of protests and actions on social

0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:24.240
<v Speaker 4>media may lead to complications. If you have already talked

0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:26.800
<v Speaker 4>to cops or experienced confusion about talking to cops, call

0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:29.040
<v Speaker 4>your attorney immediately, as these may be signs of more

0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:31.600
<v Speaker 4>serious legal problems. The concept of not talking to cops

0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:33.280
<v Speaker 4>does not provide legal advice, and the foregoing statements are

0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:35.800
<v Speaker 4>for informational purposes only. If you have specific legal questions,

0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:38.720
<v Speaker 4>consult an attorney.

0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:49.400
<v Speaker 2>And we're back. And So Europe went from warring kingdoms

0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:51.879
<v Speaker 2>to really really wealthy kingdoms because they took advantage of

0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:54.480
<v Speaker 2>the great deals that we offer heracles on media, and

0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:57.560
<v Speaker 2>they started modernizing their warships with new pocket boats and

0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:03.720
<v Speaker 2>forever change to the war. The Ottoman Empire, their main

0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:07.800
<v Speaker 2>advanced technology was basically bureaucracy. They were pretty good at it.

0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:10.440
<v Speaker 2>The ability to actually rule a massive empire and pull

0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:13.000
<v Speaker 2>taxes out of everyone took a lot of work, and

0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:15.639
<v Speaker 2>they had a really elaborate millet system for how they

0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:19.880
<v Speaker 2>handled ethnic and religious minorities. All of the different millets,

0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:22.160
<v Speaker 2>all of the different groups of people. They all had

0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:24.960
<v Speaker 2>different costumes that I think they had to wear. I

0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:26.680
<v Speaker 2>know they weren't allowed to wear a bunch of different

0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:30.159
<v Speaker 2>colors very specifically. I ended up with like kind of

0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:32.760
<v Speaker 2>mixed answers about whether or not they had to wear these.

0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:37.440
<v Speaker 2>But Greeks wore sky blue hats with black slippers, Armenians

0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:40.320
<v Speaker 2>wore dark blue and later red hats with violet slippers,

0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:44.920
<v Speaker 2>and Jews wore yellow hats with blue slippers. Wow, they

0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:49.320
<v Speaker 2>color coded their minorities. Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure I

0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:51.520
<v Speaker 2>love that. No, I'm going to say all the bad

0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:56.280
<v Speaker 2>stuff now. Yeah, non Muslim men couldn't marry Muslim women.

0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:59.360
<v Speaker 2>Church steeples couldn't be higher than the minarets on mosques,

0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:03.199
<v Speaker 2>church bells were banned Christians, couldn't dress like Muslims. They

0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:06.480
<v Speaker 2>couldn't build tall houses or buy slaves truly in oppression,

0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:10.000
<v Speaker 2>that last one. Yeah, and most importantly in a way

0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:12.960
<v Speaker 2>that'll come up as a major problem. They couldn't carry weapons.

0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:16.640
<v Speaker 2>They also paid a millet tax, which was a tax

0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:20.080
<v Speaker 2>that Muslims didn't have to pay. Yeah, but this tax

0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:27.040
<v Speaker 2>also exempted them from military service. Partly, we'll get into it. Overall,

0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:30.600
<v Speaker 2>the Ottoman Empire, like basically, this was so much better

0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:34.840
<v Speaker 2>than Europe for religious minorities, and it's just incredibly shameful

0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:38.160
<v Speaker 2>that that's the case, right, Europe was in a kill

0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:41.360
<v Speaker 2>the heretic phase where for really long time they were

0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:44.639
<v Speaker 2>in this phase. If you disagreed about like the Third Council,

0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:48.200
<v Speaker 2>the Nicean Commission on the Nature of the Trinity or whatever,

0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:54.520
<v Speaker 2>they would fucking burn you alive. So I'd rather wear

0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:56.640
<v Speaker 2>a silly hat. Yeah, Yeah, it's true.

0:20:56.680 --> 0:21:00.159
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I lame as Yes.

0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:05.600
<v Speaker 2>And they were allowed their own legal systems and autonomous

0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:08.040
<v Speaker 2>structures as long as they stayed loyal to the Sultan.

0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:11.199
<v Speaker 2>Leaders of these millets were often powerful actors within the

0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:15.160
<v Speaker 2>Ottoman Empire, And of course we're talking about a huge

0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:17.240
<v Speaker 2>swath of land over the course of like six hundred years,

0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:21.640
<v Speaker 2>so things ebbed and flowed. Author Eric Bogosian who wrote

0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:25.560
<v Speaker 2>the book Operation Nemesis, which is a very good book

0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:27.520
<v Speaker 2>that does a lot better of a job than anything

0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:30.600
<v Speaker 2>else that I read about Operation Nemesis. It lays it

0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:33.720
<v Speaker 2>out that words like Armenian and Turk really only started

0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:36.840
<v Speaker 2>getting used regularly at the end of the nineteenth century. Quote.

0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:41.800
<v Speaker 2>Aside from their respective religious faiths, the two peoples are

0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:45.240
<v Speaker 2>in many ways congruent in their culture and style. Both

0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:50.560
<v Speaker 2>people call roughly the same vast territory home, and for

0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:52.760
<v Speaker 2>a thousand years they would intermarry and there's just a

0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:55.400
<v Speaker 2>ton of intermingling and the thing about like they called

0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:57.480
<v Speaker 2>the same area home. I feel like it's important because

0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:01.120
<v Speaker 2>we have this idea like ethnanationalism. It's like, oh, everyone

0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:04.480
<v Speaker 2>gets an Ethno state and it's all distinct areas because

0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:06.919
<v Speaker 2>everyone grew up in different areas and they just have

0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:09.520
<v Speaker 2>to go back to their corner. I don't like ethno nationalism.

0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:13.320
<v Speaker 2>You'll be shocked to learn. And it's just not true

0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:19.399
<v Speaker 2>right that Armenia and Turkey are like separate. I mean,

0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:22.200
<v Speaker 2>they're separate they're distinct, right, they're culturally distinct, but.

0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:27.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, they know distinct geographical entities with like this fictive

0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:30.520
<v Speaker 3>ethnicity that. Yeah, people are tied by their blood to

0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:30.920
<v Speaker 3>the soil.

0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:34.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And like a little like shot Collars where if

0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:37.040
<v Speaker 2>you go past the electric fence, the invisible fence, you know,

0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:37.880
<v Speaker 2>like you.

0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:42.320
<v Speaker 3>Get a beep thin a zapp. Yeah, and don't give

0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:44.960
<v Speaker 3>Joe Biden any ideas he's already doing it. No, that's true.

0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:49.440
<v Speaker 2>A big listener of this podcast Joe Biden, because he

0:22:49.480 --> 0:22:51.719
<v Speaker 2>got really confused and he was like, I think I

0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:53.920
<v Speaker 2>like stuff. I don't know what I like anymore.

0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:56.280
<v Speaker 3>People I like ice cream?

0:22:56.480 --> 0:23:02.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I do like ice cream? So much in common

0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:06.040
<v Speaker 2>with that man anyway. Okay, have you heard about this

0:23:06.160 --> 0:23:09.120
<v Speaker 2>system where Christians had to give up a certain percentage

0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:11.560
<v Speaker 2>of their kids to the Ottoman Empire?

0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:15.800
<v Speaker 3>I have, unfortunately, h once again, this is this is

0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:19.960
<v Speaker 3>a thing that uh, like, world history is informed by

0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:22.440
<v Speaker 3>like this idea. The teaching of world history in the

0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:24.879
<v Speaker 3>Mode University is informed by the idea that, like the

0:23:24.960 --> 0:23:28.439
<v Speaker 3>state is the final and best organization of mankind, and

0:23:28.480 --> 0:23:30.960
<v Speaker 3>therefore we have to study these giant, massive states and

0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:34.600
<v Speaker 3>empires and that's how we understand human history. Right I am,

0:23:34.720 --> 0:23:37.600
<v Speaker 3>as an anarchist, don't believe that. But yes, unfortunately, this

0:23:37.680 --> 0:23:38.880
<v Speaker 3>is a thing that was on Sidyby.

0:23:39.920 --> 0:23:43.560
<v Speaker 2>It's it's interesting. And when I say interesting, I mean

0:23:43.600 --> 0:23:47.240
<v Speaker 2>that is like a literal sense in that is a

0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:51.359
<v Speaker 2>a different way of doing things than that than what

0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:54.959
<v Speaker 2>like Western Europe was doing. Right. Yeah, there was a

0:23:55.000 --> 0:23:57.960
<v Speaker 2>system where starting in the fourteenth century, a certain percentage

0:23:57.960 --> 0:24:01.119
<v Speaker 2>of boys born to Christian homes were requisitioned as slave labor.

0:24:01.720 --> 0:24:03.720
<v Speaker 2>Kids as young as seven and as old as twenty

0:24:03.800 --> 0:24:07.720
<v Speaker 2>were taken over to Constantinople and raised in Muslim families

0:24:07.760 --> 0:24:10.760
<v Speaker 2>and converted to Islam and then became slaves to the state.

0:24:11.840 --> 0:24:15.520
<v Speaker 2>And slavery is always always bad, but American listeners will

0:24:15.520 --> 0:24:18.359
<v Speaker 2>conflate all slavery with the unique cars of chattel slavery

0:24:18.359 --> 0:24:22.200
<v Speaker 2>in the US, and it's important to understand that these

0:24:22.200 --> 0:24:29.679
<v Speaker 2>are distinct without putting moral positions on it. Many of

0:24:29.720 --> 0:24:33.440
<v Speaker 2>these formerly Christian boys became like the sultan's personal guards.

0:24:34.000 --> 0:24:36.720
<v Speaker 2>Many wound up with power and prestige. They would become

0:24:36.760 --> 0:24:42.720
<v Speaker 2>government ministers, which were called slave administrators and provincial governors,

0:24:42.760 --> 0:24:45.399
<v Speaker 2>and there were several Grand viziers, which is the position

0:24:45.520 --> 0:24:49.600
<v Speaker 2>just below sultan, and sultan was often just a figurehead

0:24:49.760 --> 0:24:55.760
<v Speaker 2>except for a few forceful, powerful personalities throughout history. So

0:24:55.800 --> 0:25:00.720
<v Speaker 2>sometimes these literal civil servants, these these slave iministrators, were

0:25:00.720 --> 0:25:08.120
<v Speaker 2>the most powerful political actors in the empire. Some Muslim

0:25:08.160 --> 0:25:11.119
<v Speaker 2>families would pretend their kids were Christian so that they

0:25:11.119 --> 0:25:13.399
<v Speaker 2>could taken up by this, because it was a path

0:25:13.520 --> 0:25:17.200
<v Speaker 2>to prestige. And now mostly this is like, well, if

0:25:17.240 --> 0:25:21.439
<v Speaker 2>only everyone wasn't so poor that this seemed like the

0:25:21.480 --> 0:25:24.439
<v Speaker 2>way to do things. But whatever, And while they're supposed

0:25:24.480 --> 0:25:26.520
<v Speaker 2>to cut ties with their families, many of them use

0:25:26.560 --> 0:25:29.760
<v Speaker 2>their positions of power to help out their families. This

0:25:29.840 --> 0:25:32.439
<v Speaker 2>system declined in the seventeenth century. It ended by sixteen

0:25:32.520 --> 0:25:35.040
<v Speaker 2>forty eight because Ottoman soldiers wanted to recruit their own

0:25:35.119 --> 0:25:41.119
<v Speaker 2>kids into the army instead of the sons of Christian families. Meanwhile,

0:25:41.680 --> 0:25:44.320
<v Speaker 2>the Ottoman Empire is in a state of perpetual war

0:25:44.760 --> 0:25:48.960
<v Speaker 2>because they're basic philosophy and this like whenever I read

0:25:49.000 --> 0:25:52.800
<v Speaker 2>shit from like Western authors, even like Armenian American authors

0:25:52.840 --> 0:25:55.280
<v Speaker 2>and stuff like that, whenever I read stuff that says

0:25:55.320 --> 0:25:56.720
<v Speaker 2>things like this, I get a little bit like is

0:25:56.760 --> 0:25:59.960
<v Speaker 2>this Orientalysm, like what's going on? Right, because because you're

0:26:00.000 --> 0:26:03.000
<v Speaker 2>Europe is obsessed with like this like fantasy version of

0:26:03.040 --> 0:26:06.240
<v Speaker 2>the Ottoman Empire, right, yeah, and some of it is

0:26:06.280 --> 0:26:09.680
<v Speaker 2>based on reality, like you know, the Harem system and

0:26:10.240 --> 0:26:15.160
<v Speaker 2>all kinds of things, right, but best as I can tell,

0:26:15.200 --> 0:26:16.960
<v Speaker 2>and so like I have a like second guess and

0:26:17.000 --> 0:26:19.040
<v Speaker 2>a doubt right that I want to sow the seeds

0:26:19.080 --> 0:26:22.080
<v Speaker 2>of doubt about the things that like almost anything written

0:26:22.080 --> 0:26:25.359
<v Speaker 2>in English, you know, Yeah, the Ottoman Empire is in

0:26:25.400 --> 0:26:29.160
<v Speaker 2>a state of perpetual war because their basic philosophy divides

0:26:29.200 --> 0:26:32.120
<v Speaker 2>the world into the House of Islam aka their empire

0:26:32.440 --> 0:26:36.360
<v Speaker 2>and the House of War aka everywhere they haven't yet conquered.

0:26:38.600 --> 0:26:40.640
<v Speaker 2>By the end of the Ottoman Empire, about a third

0:26:40.640 --> 0:26:44.359
<v Speaker 2>of its population was European, a third Anatolian like what's

0:26:44.400 --> 0:26:48.160
<v Speaker 2>now Turkey, and one third Arabian and or North African.

0:26:48.680 --> 0:26:51.880
<v Speaker 2>And this was almost evenly split between Muslims and Christians,

0:26:51.920 --> 0:26:56.240
<v Speaker 2>with a sizable minority of Jews. The Christians and the

0:26:56.320 --> 0:26:59.440
<v Speaker 2>Jews in the Ottoman Empire filled similar rules as Jews

0:26:59.440 --> 0:27:03.600
<v Speaker 2>wound up leaning Christian Europe basically like non aristocratic trades

0:27:03.880 --> 0:27:08.440
<v Speaker 2>that Muslims were more likely to avoid artisans, merchants, traders, bankers.

0:27:09.080 --> 0:27:11.439
<v Speaker 2>This is not to say that most Armenians were middle class.

0:27:12.119 --> 0:27:14.360
<v Speaker 2>Most of them were dirt poor peasants. We'll get into it,

0:27:14.400 --> 0:27:18.520
<v Speaker 2>but a lot of this middle class did was filled

0:27:18.520 --> 0:27:24.359
<v Speaker 2>by Christians. Social class, which had religious and ethnic components,

0:27:25.040 --> 0:27:28.080
<v Speaker 2>was the division talked about more often than religion, although

0:27:28.119 --> 0:27:32.280
<v Speaker 2>religion determined your access to social class. The Askiri were

0:27:32.320 --> 0:27:36.840
<v Speaker 2>a class of military administrators aka the professional Ottoman and

0:27:36.880 --> 0:27:40.720
<v Speaker 2>they were exclusively Muslim and this included court officials and

0:27:40.760 --> 0:27:44.160
<v Speaker 2>clerics as well as the military, whereas the rahea were

0:27:44.200 --> 0:27:49.000
<v Speaker 2>basically the tax paying class, and these include Christians, Muslims,

0:27:49.000 --> 0:27:51.840
<v Speaker 2>and Jews. Then about a fifth of the Ottoman Empire,

0:27:51.840 --> 0:27:53.960
<v Speaker 2>at least in the sixteenth and seventeenth century were the

0:27:54.040 --> 0:27:57.639
<v Speaker 2>cool the slaves, and some of those were high class,

0:27:57.680 --> 0:28:01.679
<v Speaker 2>but not all of them, like we talked about, And

0:28:01.680 --> 0:28:05.119
<v Speaker 2>that's the Ottoman Empire and how Armenians were living for

0:28:05.240 --> 0:28:11.399
<v Speaker 2>centuries in this kind of relative peace. But you know,

0:28:12.440 --> 0:28:14.080
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't be mad at someone who was like, I

0:28:14.080 --> 0:28:15.639
<v Speaker 2>don't like living this way and I don't want to

0:28:15.640 --> 0:28:16.480
<v Speaker 2>live this way anymore.

0:28:17.119 --> 0:28:20.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, can I drop you my favorite random Ottoman Empire fact.

0:28:20.520 --> 0:28:22.359
<v Speaker 3>Please do I feel like that's one day I'll do

0:28:22.359 --> 0:28:25.119
<v Speaker 3>a whole episode on this. But so, Suliman Shah is

0:28:25.160 --> 0:28:30.160
<v Speaker 3>like the kind of fictive father of the Ottoman Empire, right,

0:28:30.680 --> 0:28:36.000
<v Speaker 3>and I guess it is one of the notable founders,

0:28:36.119 --> 0:28:38.320
<v Speaker 3>not not necessarily the founder, but one of the notable

0:28:38.400 --> 0:28:43.320
<v Speaker 3>kind of founders the Automo Empire. His tomb is like

0:28:44.160 --> 0:28:48.200
<v Speaker 3>supposed to be the site in Syria twenty fifteen, in

0:28:48.240 --> 0:28:51.720
<v Speaker 3>the peak of the civil war in Syria, Turkey sent

0:28:51.720 --> 0:28:55.120
<v Speaker 3>an entire fucking army column to scoop up the tomb

0:28:55.240 --> 0:28:58.400
<v Speaker 3>and the forty dudes who are guarding it, forty Turkish

0:28:58.400 --> 0:29:00.920
<v Speaker 3>guys just hanging out around this tomb and move it

0:29:01.160 --> 0:29:05.000
<v Speaker 3>back too closer to the Turkish border. Whoa like just

0:29:05.040 --> 0:29:08.280
<v Speaker 3>a unilateral military operation to find a dead guy? Like,

0:29:08.440 --> 0:29:10.320
<v Speaker 3>I know it would be a great film, and I

0:29:10.320 --> 0:29:12.440
<v Speaker 3>think that it's like, especially when we talk about like

0:29:12.480 --> 0:29:17.280
<v Speaker 3>modern Turkey denying the Armenian genocide, you can see a

0:29:17.280 --> 0:29:22.040
<v Speaker 3>lot of like it's not I don't know whatever, I'm

0:29:22.320 --> 0:29:27.480
<v Speaker 3>not enough of an expert on current affairs, but like, yeah,

0:29:27.960 --> 0:29:33.800
<v Speaker 3>there's a lineage. Yeah, Ottomanism is not like absent from

0:29:34.000 --> 0:29:36.760
<v Speaker 3>the discourse and identity in Turkey.

0:29:36.840 --> 0:29:43.080
<v Speaker 2>Now, so the nineteenth century hits and I feel like

0:29:43.120 --> 0:29:45.800
<v Speaker 2>the subtext of the show besides, everyone dies of tuberculosis

0:29:45.800 --> 0:29:49.000
<v Speaker 2>if you don't get murdered by the state is the

0:29:49.080 --> 0:29:53.960
<v Speaker 2>nineteenth century changes everything in the world. Everything started changing

0:29:54.000 --> 0:29:57.560
<v Speaker 2>and fast. In the mid nineteenth century, rebellion broke out

0:29:57.560 --> 0:29:59.720
<v Speaker 2>in the Balkans against the Ottoman Empires. This is where

0:29:59.760 --> 0:30:05.720
<v Speaker 2>the word Balkanization comes from. Where things break up, and

0:30:06.240 --> 0:30:08.840
<v Speaker 2>you famously get the rise of nationalism, which buy and

0:30:08.920 --> 0:30:11.440
<v Speaker 2>large made everything worse. And this is when media started

0:30:11.440 --> 0:30:15.840
<v Speaker 2>doing things like Turkey is mad or well, I guess

0:30:15.840 --> 0:30:17.360
<v Speaker 2>they would have said the Ottomans are mad.

0:30:17.440 --> 0:30:17.640
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:30:18.120 --> 0:30:21.680
<v Speaker 2>It's when we start like like Britain will raise his

0:30:21.920 --> 0:30:24.080
<v Speaker 2>mighty I don't know how they do to Britain her

0:30:24.160 --> 0:30:28.960
<v Speaker 2>mighty fists Britannia or John Bull depending okay, And so

0:30:29.000 --> 0:30:31.920
<v Speaker 2>you start having this idea that like, nations are people,

0:30:32.160 --> 0:30:36.280
<v Speaker 2>not just that people make up nations or whatever. Right, Yeah,

0:30:37.280 --> 0:30:41.280
<v Speaker 2>most Armenians at this point are poor, rural peasants, although

0:30:41.280 --> 0:30:43.480
<v Speaker 2>in larger towns and cities you have that modern class

0:30:43.520 --> 0:30:47.400
<v Speaker 2>of artisans and merchants. But most Armenians are living medieval

0:30:47.440 --> 0:30:50.800
<v Speaker 2>lives in the nineteenth century, Like they are not hanging

0:30:50.840 --> 0:30:54.600
<v Speaker 2>out under electrical light or glass windows. There's even this

0:30:54.640 --> 0:30:56.760
<v Speaker 2>thing where like when they talk about like westernization, they're like,

0:30:56.800 --> 0:30:59.000
<v Speaker 2>they're trying to come in here with their glass windows.

0:30:59.040 --> 0:31:02.200
<v Speaker 2>And I'm like, it's one of those things that I

0:31:02.280 --> 0:31:03.000
<v Speaker 2>like don't.

0:31:04.400 --> 0:31:04.480
<v Speaker 1>Like.

0:31:04.520 --> 0:31:06.000
<v Speaker 2>Every now and then I'm trying to like write like

0:31:06.400 --> 0:31:09.479
<v Speaker 2>medieval era fantasy, and I'm like, I don't think they

0:31:09.480 --> 0:31:12.280
<v Speaker 2>had windows, like we understand them, you know.

0:31:13.160 --> 0:31:17.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it wouldn't be practical in the absence of a

0:31:17.240 --> 0:31:18.040
<v Speaker 3>good glass.

0:31:18.400 --> 0:31:23.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Like in colder places you had scraped hide I think, okay,

0:31:23.320 --> 0:31:25.000
<v Speaker 2>in warmer places you were like, that's a hole in

0:31:25.040 --> 0:31:25.400
<v Speaker 2>the wall.

0:31:25.560 --> 0:31:26.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we just made a hole here.

0:31:27.080 --> 0:31:32.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So they're living medieval lives. They're using hand looms,

0:31:32.760 --> 0:31:35.479
<v Speaker 2>blacksmiths are fixing plows. They live in mud walled houses

0:31:35.480 --> 0:31:38.600
<v Speaker 2>and all that shit. Even bigger towns might not have

0:31:38.600 --> 0:31:42.600
<v Speaker 2>a single telephone. There's no paved roads, no railroads. A

0:31:42.600 --> 0:31:45.920
<v Speaker 2>lot of the folks, the Christians in the countryside are

0:31:46.000 --> 0:31:48.920
<v Speaker 2>essentially surfs. When the land was sold, the peasants came

0:31:48.960 --> 0:31:54.240
<v Speaker 2>with the sale. Meanwhile around them were the Kurdish tribes,

0:31:54.440 --> 0:31:57.240
<v Speaker 2>another distinct ethnic group in the area, but one that

0:31:57.360 --> 0:32:01.800
<v Speaker 2>was pastoralist and nomadic, and things were famously not great

0:32:01.840 --> 0:32:05.680
<v Speaker 2>between these two groups. The Muslim Kurds were allowed to

0:32:05.680 --> 0:32:08.120
<v Speaker 2>take more or less any liberties they wanted with the Christians,

0:32:08.160 --> 0:32:10.800
<v Speaker 2>often like moving into people's houses for the winner without

0:32:10.840 --> 0:32:14.239
<v Speaker 2>asking and things like that. This antagonism was set up

0:32:14.240 --> 0:32:19.640
<v Speaker 2>on purpose by the Ottoman rulers to have the Armenians and.

0:32:19.560 --> 0:32:23.200
<v Speaker 3>The Kurds at each other's throats and such cases. Yeah,

0:32:23.320 --> 0:32:26.120
<v Speaker 3>this is how empires work. Like, Yeah, I was just

0:32:26.280 --> 0:32:28.560
<v Speaker 3>talking to some friends in Mema right now about how

0:32:28.680 --> 0:32:30.880
<v Speaker 3>like the Hunter is very clearly trying to set up

0:32:30.920 --> 0:32:34.040
<v Speaker 3>the Rahingia against other people in Rakine. Like it is

0:32:34.080 --> 0:32:37.360
<v Speaker 3>a tale as old as time with empire, and it works.

0:32:38.120 --> 0:32:40.680
<v Speaker 3>It worked for a very long time. I'm happy to

0:32:40.720 --> 0:32:43.840
<v Speaker 3>say that all the Kurdish organizations that I pay attention

0:32:43.880 --> 0:32:48.360
<v Speaker 3>to have all talked about this openly and admitted the

0:32:48.440 --> 0:32:52.160
<v Speaker 3>role of Thirds in the Armenian genocide. Yeah, unlike the

0:32:52.240 --> 0:32:56.280
<v Speaker 3>country of Turkey. Yes, Turkish individuals, many Turkish individuals are

0:32:56.400 --> 0:32:57.680
<v Speaker 3>very aware of it and are sorry.

0:32:57.680 --> 0:32:58.760
<v Speaker 2>Go ahead, what were we gonna say?

0:32:58.960 --> 0:33:01.320
<v Speaker 3>No? I met a really interesting guy not so long

0:33:01.360 --> 0:33:07.240
<v Speaker 3>ago at the border who essentially was his grandparents I believe,

0:33:07.280 --> 0:33:11.080
<v Speaker 3>had been Armenian but had given their son to a

0:33:11.200 --> 0:33:14.600
<v Speaker 3>Kurdish family at the time of the Armenian genocidekind and

0:33:14.680 --> 0:33:18.240
<v Speaker 3>did like look after my little baby, like they're genociding us.

0:33:18.360 --> 0:33:20.680
<v Speaker 3>And yeah, he had only found this out in his

0:33:20.720 --> 0:33:25.080
<v Speaker 3>attempt to document his family as part of his asylum application,

0:33:25.440 --> 0:33:28.600
<v Speaker 3>and was like trying to explain, like as someone who

0:33:28.680 --> 0:33:32.200
<v Speaker 3>identified as Kurdish, Like that's a really fucking the weird

0:33:32.200 --> 0:33:34.480
<v Speaker 3>situation to be in, right, you're finding that, like your

0:33:34.480 --> 0:33:38.560
<v Speaker 3>identity is Kurdish and you know, but yeah, your grandfather,

0:33:39.240 --> 0:33:41.480
<v Speaker 3>I guess your grandfather was as a little baby like

0:33:42.520 --> 0:33:45.240
<v Speaker 3>given to a Kurdish family. But then like Kurdish people

0:33:45.240 --> 0:33:46.520
<v Speaker 3>are also complicit in this.

0:33:47.240 --> 0:33:50.280
<v Speaker 2>Right, No, this is actually this comes up a lot

0:33:50.400 --> 0:33:53.640
<v Speaker 2>in that a lot of Armenian survivors of the genocide

0:33:53.680 --> 0:33:59.000
<v Speaker 2>survived by either I hadn't read about. I believe it.

0:33:59.640 --> 0:34:02.360
<v Speaker 2>I believe this man's version. I believe this man's story,

0:34:03.000 --> 0:34:05.040
<v Speaker 2>but most of what I've read about our survivors who

0:34:05.080 --> 0:34:09.759
<v Speaker 2>have been like taken into Muslim families by force, and

0:34:09.840 --> 0:34:12.440
<v Speaker 2>so you have and then also just like if you

0:34:12.560 --> 0:34:15.160
<v Speaker 2>say you are now Turkish and change your religion, we

0:34:15.200 --> 0:34:17.400
<v Speaker 2>won't kill you. And so there's this whole thing in

0:34:17.440 --> 0:34:21.040
<v Speaker 2>the nineteen eighties I think where a ton of Turkish

0:34:21.040 --> 0:34:26.080
<v Speaker 2>folks were like, holy shit, my grandparents were Armenian, and

0:34:26.320 --> 0:34:28.360
<v Speaker 2>like we only found out when they were like dying

0:34:28.400 --> 0:34:33.480
<v Speaker 2>and on their deathbeds being like, you know, hey, actually

0:34:33.640 --> 0:34:34.960
<v Speaker 2>I was a Christian, you know.

0:34:35.760 --> 0:34:37.240
<v Speaker 3>Damn yeah.

0:34:37.560 --> 0:34:42.600
<v Speaker 2>But anyway, so in the countryside in nineteenth century, the

0:34:42.680 --> 0:34:45.239
<v Speaker 2>Kurds and the Armenians are being played against each other.

0:34:46.160 --> 0:34:49.360
<v Speaker 2>The country wanted to modernize to have a chance militarily

0:34:49.400 --> 0:34:51.840
<v Speaker 2>and economically against Europe. And one of the things that

0:34:51.880 --> 0:34:53.640
<v Speaker 2>keeps coming up in nineteenth century history is you start

0:34:53.680 --> 0:34:55.920
<v Speaker 2>being like, oh, everyone in a constitution because it's like

0:34:56.000 --> 0:34:59.120
<v Speaker 2>good for liberty and stuff, and like slowly you start

0:34:59.160 --> 0:35:01.480
<v Speaker 2>being like the power. I think a lot of people

0:35:01.480 --> 0:35:03.359
<v Speaker 2>did want it for good reasons. A lot of people

0:35:03.440 --> 0:35:07.040
<v Speaker 2>were like, oh no, that's a that's the better system

0:35:07.120 --> 0:35:09.239
<v Speaker 2>by which to create a modern military and be able

0:35:09.239 --> 0:35:11.680
<v Speaker 2>to like continue to exert power on the world stage

0:35:11.680 --> 0:35:13.520
<v Speaker 2>and not be conquered is to have a constitution.

0:35:13.760 --> 0:35:17.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, generally, liberally, like nineteenth century liberalism was heavily tied

0:35:18.000 --> 0:35:19.319
<v Speaker 3>to like militarism, right.

0:35:19.440 --> 0:35:25.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So in eighteen seventy six, this secret society called

0:35:25.040 --> 0:35:26.960
<v Speaker 2>the Young Ottomans that had been around for a while,

0:35:27.120 --> 0:35:29.880
<v Speaker 2>and this is different than the Young Turks. They managed

0:35:29.920 --> 0:35:32.520
<v Speaker 2>to get a constitution in a parliament set up, and

0:35:32.560 --> 0:35:35.520
<v Speaker 2>their name was inspired by a similar movement, the Young Italians,

0:35:35.719 --> 0:35:38.360
<v Speaker 2>which at some point I'm going to cover the unification

0:35:38.400 --> 0:35:41.440
<v Speaker 2>of Italy and because a lot of leftists were really

0:35:41.480 --> 0:35:43.400
<v Speaker 2>excited about at the time and now it's really awkward.

0:35:44.880 --> 0:35:48.640
<v Speaker 2>But that same year, the new sultan, who had agreed

0:35:48.680 --> 0:35:53.600
<v Speaker 2>to the constitution was like, nah, never mind, that's enough

0:35:53.640 --> 0:35:57.959
<v Speaker 2>of that. I thought I wanted a constitution, I actually don't.

0:35:58.000 --> 0:36:01.040
<v Speaker 2>Democracy sucks. I'm in charge. By eighteen seventy eight, the

0:36:01.040 --> 0:36:06.720
<v Speaker 2>pretense of democracy was gone. Three years later, the Empire

0:36:06.760 --> 0:36:11.360
<v Speaker 2>basically went bankrupt. European bankers stepped in and the Empire

0:36:11.400 --> 0:36:14.920
<v Speaker 2>became an economic colony of the West. European powers had

0:36:15.000 --> 0:36:19.920
<v Speaker 2>rights over railroads, shipping, mining, water banks, mineral rights, just everything.

0:36:20.640 --> 0:36:23.600
<v Speaker 2>But you know what else is an economic colony of

0:36:24.040 --> 0:36:27.920
<v Speaker 2>Western corporate interests US.

0:36:27.960 --> 0:36:38.120
<v Speaker 5>Sadly, yes, it's us, good, good, great here's some ads.

0:36:45.200 --> 0:36:45.719
<v Speaker 3>Welcome back.

0:36:45.800 --> 0:36:48.080
<v Speaker 2>I think that was my most cynical a transition.

0:36:48.160 --> 0:36:49.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that one.

0:36:51.400 --> 0:36:54.560
<v Speaker 2>From its brief flirtation with constitutional monarchy, the seeds of

0:36:54.680 --> 0:36:57.239
<v Speaker 2>change had been sown because like, Okay, as much as

0:36:57.239 --> 0:36:59.600
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, oh, like it's all like as cynicals I

0:36:59.600 --> 0:37:04.239
<v Speaker 2>am about constitutional monarchy, whatever it's it's still better than autocracy.

0:37:04.360 --> 0:37:07.400
<v Speaker 2>Like I get why people fought for this, you know.

0:37:09.040 --> 0:37:13.880
<v Speaker 2>And new groups popped up to modernize the empire. Most

0:37:14.120 --> 0:37:16.680
<v Speaker 2>at the beginning wanted to continue to have a religiously

0:37:16.719 --> 0:37:20.480
<v Speaker 2>pluralistic but still Islamic society. That's like they were like, look,

0:37:20.480 --> 0:37:22.520
<v Speaker 2>our vibe kind of works for us, Like why would

0:37:22.520 --> 0:37:24.759
<v Speaker 2>we fuck that up? Like, of course the Christians are

0:37:24.800 --> 0:37:27.200
<v Speaker 2>allowed here as long as we get to like our

0:37:27.239 --> 0:37:28.200
<v Speaker 2>minarets are taller.

0:37:28.480 --> 0:37:28.680
<v Speaker 5>You know.

0:37:30.400 --> 0:37:33.280
<v Speaker 2>One of these new groups was called the Young Turks,

0:37:34.239 --> 0:37:37.120
<v Speaker 2>and they start off kind of good. Then they turn

0:37:37.200 --> 0:37:39.160
<v Speaker 2>out to be more or less the precursors of the

0:37:39.239 --> 0:37:44.200
<v Speaker 2>Nazis in terms of should we genocide religious minorities. We'll

0:37:44.200 --> 0:37:48.920
<v Speaker 2>come back to them. The Sultan he had a problem.

0:37:49.080 --> 0:37:51.560
<v Speaker 2>He's trying to do this autocracy thing right, and the

0:37:51.640 --> 0:37:55.400
<v Speaker 2>problem is that ethnic minorities weren't being ruled well enough.

0:37:55.960 --> 0:37:58.880
<v Speaker 2>And I think the first problem he tried to solve

0:37:59.000 --> 0:38:01.600
<v Speaker 2>in this way was the quote unquote Kurdish problem.

0:38:02.360 --> 0:38:04.440
<v Speaker 3>When you're referring to a group of people and then

0:38:04.560 --> 0:38:07.120
<v Speaker 3>using the word problem afterwards, bad sign.

0:38:08.160 --> 0:38:09.360
<v Speaker 2>This is part of why I'm going to call them

0:38:09.360 --> 0:38:12.160
<v Speaker 2>the precursors of the Nazis. All of the like phrasing

0:38:12.200 --> 0:38:16.280
<v Speaker 2>of like the following problem and the solution to that problem.

0:38:17.280 --> 0:38:21.960
<v Speaker 2>Like it just I mean there's literally German officers taking

0:38:22.000 --> 0:38:22.440
<v Speaker 2>notes ding.

0:38:22.600 --> 0:38:24.759
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, there's yeah, there's more than a

0:38:24.840 --> 0:38:26.359
<v Speaker 3>rhetoric shed between these two.

0:38:27.160 --> 0:38:30.640
<v Speaker 2>Uh so, yeah, this Kurdish problem. Nomadic people are hard

0:38:30.640 --> 0:38:34.200
<v Speaker 2>to rule. The best chance most dictators have is to

0:38:34.320 --> 0:38:38.320
<v Speaker 2>leverage the militaristic society of nomadic people for their own aims.

0:38:39.680 --> 0:38:43.759
<v Speaker 2>So Hamid the Sultan broke up the largest tribes of

0:38:43.800 --> 0:38:46.239
<v Speaker 2>the Kurds and killed a bunch of their leaders, and

0:38:46.280 --> 0:38:48.760
<v Speaker 2>then co opted a bunch of them into a paramilitary

0:38:48.840 --> 0:38:55.000
<v Speaker 2>force called the Hamadie, which he named after himself. And

0:38:55.040 --> 0:38:57.960
<v Speaker 2>if yeah, and if this sounds familiar to what the

0:38:57.960 --> 0:39:00.319
<v Speaker 2>Czar did or the Cossacks, because you've been found along

0:39:00.360 --> 0:39:02.239
<v Speaker 2>a cool zone media book club and I was reading

0:39:02.280 --> 0:39:05.439
<v Speaker 2>about that a while ago. It's because it's the same

0:39:05.480 --> 0:39:09.000
<v Speaker 2>fucking thing, and this is okay, this is a rabbit

0:39:09.040 --> 0:39:12.480
<v Speaker 2>hole I want to ask you about. Yeah, the overlap

0:39:12.480 --> 0:39:15.920
<v Speaker 2>between the Kurds and the Cossacks is really interesting because

0:39:15.960 --> 0:39:19.239
<v Speaker 2>both are nomadic horse tribes that wind up being the

0:39:19.280 --> 0:39:22.880
<v Speaker 2>shock troops of reaction and then wind up being the

0:39:22.880 --> 0:39:25.040
<v Speaker 2>core of two of the most impressive, large scale anti

0:39:25.080 --> 0:39:27.359
<v Speaker 2>authoritarian socialist societies the world's ever seen.

0:39:28.280 --> 0:39:29.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it is an interesting parallel.

0:39:30.440 --> 0:39:33.279
<v Speaker 2>And during that one, Makno was a Cossack and he

0:39:33.360 --> 0:39:36.400
<v Speaker 2>led the anarchist Ukrainian Project, while the Kurds have spearheaded

0:39:36.440 --> 0:39:40.560
<v Speaker 2>the autonomous region of Northeast Syria that exists currently, and

0:39:40.600 --> 0:39:43.600
<v Speaker 2>their pluralistic society is built on democratic and federalism.

0:39:44.239 --> 0:39:48.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's nice. And there are like, I know, there

0:39:48.200 --> 0:39:51.120
<v Speaker 3>are like Havalds from Curtis Dan who are fighting in

0:39:51.160 --> 0:39:54.480
<v Speaker 3>Syria now I'm sorry, in Syria in Ukraine, now okay

0:39:54.960 --> 0:39:57.680
<v Speaker 3>with there, And there are also Cossack folks playing there,

0:39:57.719 --> 0:40:02.040
<v Speaker 3>and there were like horizontally organized units that might comprise

0:40:02.120 --> 0:40:03.640
<v Speaker 3>both of them. I don't know. I'm talking to one

0:40:03.640 --> 0:40:04.839
<v Speaker 3>of them soon, so we'll find out.

0:40:05.239 --> 0:40:06.759
<v Speaker 2>And it's like interesting because like a lot of people,

0:40:06.840 --> 0:40:10.160
<v Speaker 2>whenever you have like these, you know, a nomadic culture

0:40:10.200 --> 0:40:12.600
<v Speaker 2>that becomes like shock troops of reaction, people are like, oh,

0:40:12.640 --> 0:40:15.840
<v Speaker 2>it's because they're so fighty, but you're like, well, also

0:40:15.880 --> 0:40:20.640
<v Speaker 2>they're like refusal to be ruled. Also has a cultural

0:40:20.840 --> 0:40:24.080
<v Speaker 2>tendency towards anti authoritarian socialism.

0:40:24.480 --> 0:40:28.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, like the idea of like martial races is inherently

0:40:28.920 --> 0:40:32.040
<v Speaker 3>tied to empire, right, Like, at some point everyone was fighty,

0:40:32.160 --> 0:40:35.360
<v Speaker 3>and then yeah, they're totally the folks that they couldn't

0:40:35.360 --> 0:40:38.680
<v Speaker 3>subdue became the ones who they painted as barbarians totally.

0:40:39.160 --> 0:40:42.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And it's just so interesting the way that that

0:40:43.400 --> 0:40:45.960
<v Speaker 2>sometimes those groups are still like the more privileged group

0:40:46.040 --> 0:40:49.840
<v Speaker 2>within within a system, like on some level the Kurds.

0:40:50.000 --> 0:40:51.759
<v Speaker 2>But then again you can see how much good it

0:40:51.800 --> 0:40:55.040
<v Speaker 2>did them to be slightly more privileged, because then in

0:40:55.080 --> 0:40:57.880
<v Speaker 2>the eighteen nineties the sultan was like, eh, let's just

0:40:57.960 --> 0:40:58.920
<v Speaker 2>kill you all, you know.

0:40:59.440 --> 0:41:01.560
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so it has continued.

0:41:02.120 --> 0:41:06.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so these broken up Kurdish tribes get even more

0:41:06.520 --> 0:41:10.919
<v Speaker 2>violent and banditry prone because their society has been disrupted, right,

0:41:12.320 --> 0:41:14.800
<v Speaker 2>and they're largely taking it out on the rural Armenians.

0:41:16.200 --> 0:41:20.280
<v Speaker 2>Then in eighteen ninety four eighteen ninety six, the Sultan

0:41:20.400 --> 0:41:23.840
<v Speaker 2>was like, hey, would you just go crush the Armenians.

0:41:24.640 --> 0:41:29.120
<v Speaker 2>They're too friendly with Russia. So hundreds of thousands of

0:41:29.200 --> 0:41:32.840
<v Speaker 2>Armenians were slaughtered. They were burned alive, they were aflayed,

0:41:32.840 --> 0:41:35.680
<v Speaker 2>they were raped, they were dismembered. It's a really bad time.

0:41:36.560 --> 0:41:40.239
<v Speaker 2>This is sometimes called the first Armenian genocide. And this

0:41:40.320 --> 0:41:43.839
<v Speaker 2>started what's also to be uh has been called if

0:41:43.960 --> 0:41:46.320
<v Speaker 2>if this was Wikipedia, people will be very angry because

0:41:46.360 --> 0:41:48.239
<v Speaker 2>I'm saying has been called and saying I'm saying who

0:41:48.280 --> 0:41:50.239
<v Speaker 2>called it that? And the answer is a bunch of

0:41:50.440 --> 0:41:57.400
<v Speaker 2>books I read. They started a culture of massacre, and

0:41:57.440 --> 0:42:00.439
<v Speaker 2>since the Christians weren't allowed to bear arms, there wasn't

0:42:00.440 --> 0:42:03.760
<v Speaker 2>a time they could do about it, at least not legally.

0:42:04.920 --> 0:42:08.400
<v Speaker 2>They did do quite a lot about it through friend

0:42:08.400 --> 0:42:16.320
<v Speaker 2>of the pod crime, Crime that we'll talk about on Wednesday.

0:42:17.239 --> 0:42:21.600
<v Speaker 3>That's my that's my Cliffhanger. I promise you crime. Yeah, right,

0:42:21.719 --> 0:42:24.040
<v Speaker 3>very rare to have crime on this podcast. So exciting

0:42:24.080 --> 0:42:25.360
<v Speaker 3>for us.

0:42:26.280 --> 0:42:29.399
<v Speaker 2>But I don't know, how are you feeling so far?

0:42:30.719 --> 0:42:33.600
<v Speaker 3>Well, it's a part of the world I've recently visited,

0:42:33.680 --> 0:42:37.520
<v Speaker 3>so yeah, yeah, and then I've been watching the football

0:42:37.600 --> 0:42:40.239
<v Speaker 3>recently and seeing a lot of a lot of a

0:42:40.280 --> 0:42:43.400
<v Speaker 3>lot of Gray Wolf salutes, which is really a stadium

0:42:43.400 --> 0:42:46.360
<v Speaker 3>full of people doing a fascist salute. Is not a

0:42:46.400 --> 0:42:48.400
<v Speaker 3>thing that I'd expected to see in Germany again, but

0:42:48.480 --> 0:42:52.320
<v Speaker 3>here we are. Wait, were the Gray Wolves in Germany

0:42:52.360 --> 0:42:54.319
<v Speaker 3>doing it? Yeah? The Grey Wolves is the largest right

0:42:54.360 --> 0:42:57.640
<v Speaker 3>wing group in Germany, which is impressive given that Germany

0:42:57.680 --> 0:42:58.240
<v Speaker 3>is Germany.

0:42:58.680 --> 0:43:03.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, right, what's the German So the Gray Wolves,

0:43:03.160 --> 0:43:05.440
<v Speaker 2>which I only vaguely know about, but anyone who's listening,

0:43:05.480 --> 0:43:09.680
<v Speaker 2>it's a Turkish far right nationalist group, right, yeah, ultranationalists

0:43:09.719 --> 0:43:11.239
<v Speaker 2>pan Turkish.

0:43:11.400 --> 0:43:15.240
<v Speaker 3>They conceive of Turkey that being a mono ethnic Sunni

0:43:15.320 --> 0:43:18.920
<v Speaker 3>Islamic state that expands across much of the old Ottoman

0:43:18.960 --> 0:43:23.719
<v Speaker 3>Empire to unite Turkic people, right, Okay, they are Yeah,

0:43:24.120 --> 0:43:28.600
<v Speaker 3>the street fighters at MHP they people can listen to

0:43:28.640 --> 0:43:31.879
<v Speaker 3>a podcast what it could Happen here where my friend

0:43:31.880 --> 0:43:35.719
<v Speaker 3>Sherien and I talk about the Mirage massacre and the

0:43:35.760 --> 0:43:40.879
<v Speaker 3>Gray Wolves and why Turkish bobs are beating Syrian refugees

0:43:41.040 --> 0:43:45.480
<v Speaker 3>this week in Turkey. It's great, It's very affirming stuff.

0:43:45.480 --> 0:43:49.360
<v Speaker 3>But yeah, the Gray Wolves are the right wing ultranationalists,

0:43:49.360 --> 0:43:53.720
<v Speaker 3>street fighting kind of movement of Turkish ulter nationalism. Yeah.

0:43:54.360 --> 0:43:56.360
<v Speaker 2>And if you're a metal head and you want to

0:43:56.400 --> 0:44:01.640
<v Speaker 2>be mad, their salute is distinct from throwing the horns,

0:44:02.040 --> 0:44:05.400
<v Speaker 2>but hard to tell. Yeah, it's distinct from throwing the horns.

0:44:05.520 --> 0:44:08.520
<v Speaker 3>It's close. Or if you're a shadow puppetella, then really

0:44:08.520 --> 0:44:12.760
<v Speaker 3>if you've been previously doing the little dog, yeah, problematic now.

0:44:13.160 --> 0:44:15.520
<v Speaker 2>Which is really low on the list of reasons why

0:44:15.520 --> 0:44:16.720
<v Speaker 2>we need to destroy them.

0:44:17.400 --> 0:44:22.120
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, just imagining like a just a street fighting branch

0:44:22.160 --> 0:44:24.319
<v Speaker 3>at a shadow puppet movement, fucking them up.

0:44:25.640 --> 0:44:28.800
<v Speaker 2>I mean I think about like like twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen,

0:44:28.840 --> 0:44:30.840
<v Speaker 2>I would like go to these anti Trump rallies in

0:44:30.920 --> 0:44:33.560
<v Speaker 2>like a small southern town, and the localhema groups, the

0:44:33.640 --> 0:44:38.400
<v Speaker 2>historical European martial arts books who are just like poor

0:44:38.600 --> 0:44:42.359
<v Speaker 2>rural biker nerds who are amazing and lovely people would

0:44:42.400 --> 0:44:44.960
<v Speaker 2>show up with their like heathens against hate signs and

0:44:45.040 --> 0:44:49.040
<v Speaker 2>like they're like you know, medieval kit right, Yeah, And

0:44:49.080 --> 0:44:51.600
<v Speaker 2>part of it is just like get those runs out

0:44:51.600 --> 0:44:56.759
<v Speaker 2>of your fucking mouth. Yeah yeah, yeah, like fuck you, yeah,

0:44:56.960 --> 0:44:59.000
<v Speaker 2>again like I can't see that and not have a

0:44:59.000 --> 0:44:59.680
<v Speaker 2>certain reaction.

0:45:00.239 --> 0:45:03.120
<v Speaker 3>But at the same time, yeah, those people were they

0:45:03.160 --> 0:45:04.359
<v Speaker 3>were first on the ruin shit.

0:45:05.120 --> 0:45:09.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, And so I appreciate the work that people

0:45:09.080 --> 0:45:11.959
<v Speaker 2>have put into and not like because there's one version

0:45:12.000 --> 0:45:13.680
<v Speaker 2>of the putting in the work where you're like, hey,

0:45:13.719 --> 0:45:16.120
<v Speaker 2>no one should use runes anymore because Nazis have them,

0:45:16.160 --> 0:45:18.160
<v Speaker 2>and another that's like, we will fucking take those back

0:45:18.160 --> 0:45:21.560
<v Speaker 2>from the Nazis by before all the Nazis and having

0:45:21.680 --> 0:45:24.799
<v Speaker 2>the fact that we street fight Nazis while using these

0:45:25.320 --> 0:45:26.840
<v Speaker 2>change what people's perception is.

0:45:27.280 --> 0:45:30.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I love that for them. Yeah, be a Viking

0:45:30.640 --> 0:45:31.520
<v Speaker 3>against fascism.

0:45:31.880 --> 0:45:36.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So, but don't throw the horns in the wolf way.

0:45:37.640 --> 0:45:41.560
<v Speaker 3>That's my keep those two middle fingers tight tight into

0:45:41.600 --> 0:45:43.440
<v Speaker 3>the palm you did, or do it like the really

0:45:43.440 --> 0:45:45.040
<v Speaker 3>awkward way where you kind of have the thumb out

0:45:45.040 --> 0:45:46.239
<v Speaker 3>even though you're like not supposed to.

0:45:46.360 --> 0:45:49.080
<v Speaker 2>But it doesn't only matter, you know, Yeah, the.

0:45:49.040 --> 0:45:51.200
<v Speaker 3>Ship is sailed now, but at least people know what

0:45:51.200 --> 0:45:51.960
<v Speaker 3>you're doing, I guess.

0:45:53.960 --> 0:45:57.200
<v Speaker 2>Anyway, when we come back on Wednesday, we will talk

0:45:57.280 --> 0:46:04.000
<v Speaker 2>about how the Armenians formed massive revolutionary socialist organizations committed

0:46:04.000 --> 0:46:06.759
<v Speaker 2>to doing terrorism against the people who were murdering them,

0:46:07.560 --> 0:46:13.040
<v Speaker 2>which is classic cool people coose Yeah, stand by of

0:46:13.080 --> 0:46:15.640
<v Speaker 2>the show. Well, yeah, I mean thing you could plug.

0:46:15.680 --> 0:46:16.960
<v Speaker 2>I guess you'd just plugged her.

0:46:17.640 --> 0:46:19.799
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. I do a podcast, but it could happen here.

0:46:20.640 --> 0:46:23.440
<v Speaker 3>It's also on cool Zone Media. You can listen to

0:46:23.520 --> 0:46:27.160
<v Speaker 3>it by typing it could happen here podcast into your

0:46:27.200 --> 0:46:28.880
<v Speaker 3>machine as search as the Internet and it will come

0:46:28.960 --> 0:46:32.120
<v Speaker 3>up and you will find a podcast every day. And

0:46:32.360 --> 0:46:35.480
<v Speaker 3>I am writing a book for ak Press about anarchist

0:46:35.520 --> 0:46:38.360
<v Speaker 3>at War that involves some of the people we've spoken

0:46:38.480 --> 0:46:42.480
<v Speaker 3>about today, and you can read it eventually when I

0:46:42.520 --> 0:46:43.480
<v Speaker 3>finish it.

0:46:43.520 --> 0:46:44.640
<v Speaker 2>Does that have a working title?

0:46:46.120 --> 0:46:49.120
<v Speaker 3>So I wanted to do We renounce everything but victory,

0:46:49.160 --> 0:46:52.680
<v Speaker 3>which is the last words that Buenaventors Luti spoke well,

0:46:53.520 --> 0:46:58.720
<v Speaker 3>which I think is cool but still unsure. I always

0:46:58.719 --> 0:47:02.360
<v Speaker 3>feel like any any really cool speech which is attributed

0:47:02.360 --> 0:47:05.040
<v Speaker 3>to de Ruti, you have to work really hard to

0:47:05.080 --> 0:47:07.760
<v Speaker 3>ascertain if he actually said that or anything like it,

0:47:07.880 --> 0:47:09.319
<v Speaker 3>or some Dutch dude made up.

0:47:09.520 --> 0:47:12.640
<v Speaker 2>I know, because his best quote wasn't actually probably said

0:47:12.640 --> 0:47:12.960
<v Speaker 2>by him.

0:47:13.120 --> 0:47:13.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but I don't care.

0:47:14.000 --> 0:47:14.719
<v Speaker 2>He would have said it.

0:47:14.719 --> 0:47:19.279
<v Speaker 3>Fuck it, yeah, fuck it, yeah, he he hated a fascist,

0:47:19.320 --> 0:47:22.000
<v Speaker 3>and yeah, there's a new there's a new quote growing

0:47:22.000 --> 0:47:22.560
<v Speaker 3>in her hearts.

0:47:22.600 --> 0:47:28.759
<v Speaker 2>It's growing in anyway. I have a book coming out

0:47:28.800 --> 0:47:31.920
<v Speaker 2>in September. You can pre order it. I'm the Kickstarter

0:47:32.040 --> 0:47:35.200
<v Speaker 2>is done, but I'm still signing book plates for all

0:47:35.239 --> 0:47:37.320
<v Speaker 2>of the pre orders that go through Firestorm Books. The

0:47:37.320 --> 0:47:40.400
<v Speaker 2>book is called The Sapling Cage That September twenty fourth.

0:47:40.400 --> 0:47:42.880
<v Speaker 2>It's about a young trans witch who goes off and

0:47:43.840 --> 0:47:46.680
<v Speaker 2>joins the Witches, which implies that she didn't start as

0:47:46.719 --> 0:47:49.839
<v Speaker 2>a witch, which is true. She didn't even start off

0:47:49.840 --> 0:47:50.680
<v Speaker 2>knowing that she was a girl.

0:47:51.239 --> 0:47:54.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm really enjoying it. Oh yeah, cool, that makes it

0:47:55.000 --> 0:47:58.719
<v Speaker 1>surfe endos my. It's my current plane book where I'm like,

0:47:58.760 --> 0:48:01.160
<v Speaker 1>all right, I need to be distracted from the fact

0:48:01.160 --> 0:48:03.400
<v Speaker 1>that I'm in this horrible metal death trap.

0:48:05.680 --> 0:48:06.919
<v Speaker 2>Let's escape to another world.

0:48:08.719 --> 0:48:11.759
<v Speaker 3>That's where Margaret's books are always stocked in tiny submarines

0:48:11.840 --> 0:48:12.800
<v Speaker 3>that billionaires go on.

0:48:12.920 --> 0:48:16.200
<v Speaker 1>Now, oh yeah, they give that to them instead of like,

0:48:16.480 --> 0:48:19.120
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, something that could help them survive, like

0:48:19.239 --> 0:48:21.040
<v Speaker 1>maybe not getting in one of those.

0:48:21.480 --> 0:48:25.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, a brain, They're going to get down to the

0:48:25.760 --> 0:48:27.960
<v Speaker 2>bottom and be like, wait a second, I've been living

0:48:27.960 --> 0:48:30.720
<v Speaker 2>my life all wrong. This capitalism thing is terrible for people.

0:48:30.760 --> 0:48:33.240
<v Speaker 2>But by then it's too late they hear the rivets popping.

0:48:35.640 --> 0:48:37.359
<v Speaker 2>I should mention that Margaret I am doing. I did

0:48:37.360 --> 0:48:41.920
<v Speaker 2>a translation for Margaret Strange in a Tangled Wilderness zine

0:48:42.040 --> 0:48:45.200
<v Speaker 2>as well, which that'll be out at some point to

0:48:45.239 --> 0:48:48.120
<v Speaker 2>our Patreon backers and on our website Tangled Wilderness dot org.

0:48:48.120 --> 0:48:50.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm part of a collectively run publisher called Strangers in

0:48:50.400 --> 0:48:53.919
<v Speaker 2>a Tangledilderness and we are publishing some of James translations

0:48:54.080 --> 0:48:57.400
<v Speaker 2>about the Spanish of war and how people romanticize it

0:48:57.440 --> 0:49:03.759
<v Speaker 2>too much, including us. Yes, and we'll see you on Wednesday.

0:49:07.120 --> 0:49:09.640
<v Speaker 1>Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

0:49:09.680 --> 0:49:12.760
<v Speaker 1>cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,

0:49:12.920 --> 0:49:16.160
<v Speaker 1>visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

0:49:16.280 --> 0:49:19.640
<v Speaker 1>on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

0:49:19.680 --> 0:49:20.960
<v Speaker 1>your podcasts.