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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People did Cool Stuff. You're

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Speaker 2: a weekly reminder that sometimes when bad stuff happens, people

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Speaker 2: use that opportunity to do good stuff in response to

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Speaker 2: the aforementioned bad stuff. I'm your host, Margaret Kildroy, and

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Speaker 2: with me today is my guest, James Stout.

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Speaker 3: Hi James. Hi, Margaret. I'm happy to be here.

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Speaker 2: I'm happy you're here too, and I'm happy that Sophie's here.

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Speaker 2: Who's our producer?

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Speaker 3: Hi Sophie.

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Speaker 1: Hi mag Hi Hi James. Hi.

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Speaker 2: I'm also happy that Daniel is not here. No, that

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Speaker 2: comes across badly. Our audio engineer is Daniel, who is

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Speaker 2: not here, but we'll hear this.

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Speaker 1: Hi Daniel, Daniel, You're always here in our hearts. Hi Daniel.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Everywhere I go I carry down in my heart. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Our theme music was written for us by un woman

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Speaker 2: and this week is d next week because it's a

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Speaker 2: four parter, because it started as a two parter and

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Speaker 2: then it didn't fit. Because it's a big thing that

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Speaker 2: we're talking about, but it's an I can't sell this

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Speaker 2: as exciting. It's mostly bad, but there's good stuff within it.

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Speaker 2: This week and next week we're going to talk about

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Speaker 2: one of the least discussed worst things that has happened

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Speaker 2: in the history of the world, the Armenian genocide, And

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about the well, the scrappy, poorly

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Speaker 2: funded Armenians who set out to and successfully killed basically

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Speaker 2: everyone responsible for that particular nightmare, which is an impressive feat. Yeah, James,

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Speaker 2: I know the answer to this question because I already

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Speaker 2: asked you, have you heard much about the Armenian Genocide.

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Speaker 3: I've had a little bit. Yeah. I used to teach

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Speaker 3: a world's history course at the University of California and

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Speaker 3: we talked a little bit about the Armenian genocide, and

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Speaker 3: I was kind of shocked how most folks coming into

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Speaker 3: that course who are really genuinely unaware that anything bad

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Speaker 3: had happened to the Armenian people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I knew the words Armenian genocide. I mean I

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Speaker 2: knew the cliff notes of what had happened, right, but

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Speaker 2: I didn't I didn't know as much as i've known.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, how about Operation Nemesis. You heard Operation Nemesis?

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Speaker 3: Is this when they go about splatting all the people

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Speaker 3: who did the Armenian genocide.

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Speaker 2: There's so many there's yeah, yeah, yeah, can I do this?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? This one is pretty cool. Ways to respond to

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Speaker 3: a genocide go not a bad one. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It was just so cut and dry. I mean, there's

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Speaker 2: a lot, there's a lot that's going on, right, it's

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Speaker 2: the forethar we're going to talk about it. But like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: they're like, well, that can't happen. And and there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of stuff that came up during this that I

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Speaker 2: didn't realize that even like complicates it more. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: just revenge. It was actually political actions that had a

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Speaker 2: real and direct impact on people who are still living.

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Speaker 2: Because well, we'll get into it, yeah, because it's also

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Speaker 2: going to be a story about how socialist revolutionaries of

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Speaker 2: every stripe and the presence of women in general in

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Speaker 2: revolutionary struggle has been left out of the mainstream retellings

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Speaker 2: of this story, Like most of the mainstream retellings of

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Speaker 2: this story I've heard, basically come down to, Oh, some

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Speaker 2: middle class Armenian Americans with no connections to power at

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Speaker 2: all got together and killed all these people, you know,

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Speaker 2: and it's meant to be like this like scrappy underdog

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Speaker 2: story because of the fact that they're like all detached,

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Speaker 2: but it removes them from a lineage of struggle and

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Speaker 2: actually specific actors who were involved. So I disagree with

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Speaker 2: that way of telling it. And I want to shout

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Speaker 2: out the Armenian listener who wrote to suggest this story,

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Speaker 2: so thank you. The shortest version of this story is

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Speaker 2: that in nineteen fifteen, a pseudo revolutionary nationalist Turkish force

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Speaker 2: called the Young Terms led a genocide of somewhere between

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Speaker 2: a million and two million Christians, particularly Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians.

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Speaker 2: The numbers are hotly contested. Mostly they're tracked separately by ethnicity,

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Speaker 2: but it was an absolute nightmare, and folks did not

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Speaker 2: take a line down, which brings me the question. I

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Speaker 2: feel like you two probably know more about modern political

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Speaker 2: media landscape. There's an influential group called the Young Turks

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Speaker 2: that's around.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is one of those things that, like I

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Speaker 3: if people aren't guessing from the way I speak, I

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Speaker 3: didn't grow up in the United States, and yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: get crazy, I did, I see? I just mainlined Harry

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Speaker 3: Potter movie. It's why I'm a terrible fucking person. That's

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Speaker 3: not true. I didn't grow up here and I wasn't

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Speaker 3: always like a heavy user of the Internet, like I'm

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Speaker 3: PULHDM now, but I remember having a distinct moment and

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Speaker 3: someone being like, oh, yeah, man, you check this thing out.

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Speaker 3: They called the Young Turks not but they called fucking

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Speaker 3: what And apparently it's this left liberal media network, which,

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Speaker 3: like unsurprised me, has terrible takes on things. I have

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Speaker 3: now become sadly very aware of how terrible they are.

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Speaker 3: But why what the fuck are you going for with that?

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Speaker 2: It? As best as I can understand, I have not

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Speaker 2: really consumed any of the Young Turks content, as best

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Speaker 2: as I could understand. If you're like kind of stuck

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Speaker 2: in a specific nationalist lens, you can ignore all of

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Speaker 2: the bad stuff and stick to like the like ten

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Speaker 2: minutes that the Young Turks in the eighteen nineties was

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Speaker 2: like vaguely progressive or something. But it's like naming your

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Speaker 2: media network the Nazi, Like if this is like yeah media.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's insane, Like it speaks I think to

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Speaker 3: the fact that people don't like when I would when

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Speaker 3: I would lecture about the Armenian genocide. If students who

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Speaker 3: are aware at all, they were aware through the medium

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Speaker 3: of the Kardashians, which is I know nothing else. I

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Speaker 3: know the Kardashian are educators about the Armenian genocide, and

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Speaker 3: I know that one of them is married to one

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Speaker 3: of the dudes from Blink one A two, And this

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Speaker 3: is all I know about them.

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Speaker 2: Two facts more than I had. But Sophie is probably

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Speaker 2: laughing at both of us for our pop culture.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Sophie's going to do her own podcast about.

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Speaker 2: Explain yea explaining pop culture to the people who live

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Speaker 2: under rocks on my network is that.

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Speaker 3: We found some anarchists and explained television to Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I would listen to that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would just do that. Should be really fun.

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Speaker 2: Do me some good, because I'm not proud of the

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Speaker 2: fact that I have no idea what's going on unless

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Speaker 2: it happened in eighteen ninety six.

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Speaker 3: In my points of reference stop at the end of

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Speaker 3: the Spanish Civil War and from there, I'm just going

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Speaker 3: off context on Twitter. Yeah, but no Young Turks really

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Speaker 3: shit name, Like if you didn't see like all of

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Speaker 3: their other terrible stuff coming, I feel like the name

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Speaker 3: should have been a massive clue.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean I had never heard of the

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Speaker 2: Young Turks, the original movement, you know, even in as

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Speaker 2: little as I knew about anything else, and so I

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Speaker 2: assume that that's what it is, is that people just

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Speaker 2: don't know, you know, and like, Okay, this is really petty.

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Speaker 2: There's this Armenian composer that I learned about this week

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Speaker 2: named Gomitas, and it's transliterated different ways, different times, and

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Speaker 2: the music is so beautiful, and there's like all of

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Speaker 2: these like long importance is very important. Composer. He loses

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Speaker 2: his mind in the Armenian genocide. He's considered one of

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Speaker 2: the victims of the genocide. He lives for a while longer,

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Speaker 2: but he, you know, he loses his mind completely. And

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Speaker 2: my metal band has more listeners on Spotify than this guy.

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Speaker 2: And it was just this moment of like, oh, people

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Speaker 2: don't know about the past. Yeah, you know, I didn't

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Speaker 2: know about this guy. It's amazing. This is completely up

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Speaker 2: my alley. It is like crazy, dramatic, dark and beautiful.

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Speaker 2: I'm so into it. But this is start the story.

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Speaker 2: I was gonna say to get back to the story,

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Speaker 2: but we haven't started it yet. So just to make

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Speaker 2: soph happy, I'm going to start this story in the

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Speaker 2: year three hundred and one.

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Speaker 3: I have a triple digit Yeah, yeah, use a full

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Speaker 3: pot of ass.

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Speaker 2: The Armenian genocid was both ethnically and religiously motivated, but

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Speaker 2: especially religiously motivated. To say that Armenia is a Christian

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Speaker 2: nation is to understate the case dramatically. Armenia is the

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Speaker 2: first Christian nation in the history of the world in

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Speaker 2: the year three hundred and one, seventy nine years before Rome,

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Speaker 2: years before Ethiopia. I think Georgia was also up there.

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Speaker 2: In general, most Armenians belong to the Armenian Apostolic Church,

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Speaker 2: which is part of the Oriental Orthodox tradition, which is

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Speaker 2: distinct from the Eastern Orthodox tradition.

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Speaker 1: For us, I think it's a Postolic.

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Speaker 3: Apostolic Okaystal, you should include me getting that wrong and

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Speaker 3: you're fixing me, I think.

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Speaker 2: I think so fixing.

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Speaker 1: I'm like going back to going to Catholic church Apostolic.

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Speaker 2: And the reason it is an Apostolic church is because

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Speaker 2: tradition holds that it was Saint Jude, one of the

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Speaker 2: original apostles of Jesus, who traveled to Armenia and started

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Speaker 2: converting people. So it's real Christian. What exactly Armenia means

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Speaker 2: as a political entity versus as a people is a

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Speaker 2: complicated issue that has changed many, many times over the

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Speaker 2: course of history. There's a country called Armenia right now

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Speaker 2: in West Asia. It's sort of sandwich between Turkey and Georgia.

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Speaker 2: This is sort of a rump state. It is the

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Speaker 2: remnant of a larger previous state. Most modern Armenians have

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Speaker 2: a heritage that more directly comes from modern day Turkey,

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Speaker 2: as someone from Armenia explained to me, or rather an

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Speaker 2: Armenian person explained to me earlier today when I was

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Speaker 2: trying to sort out exactly this question. Armenia has been

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Speaker 2: doing this thing for thousands of years at this point,

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Speaker 2: but it hasn't always existed as a distinct political entity,

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Speaker 2: although the culture and the people have been around for

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Speaker 2: a very long time. But we're not going to track

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Speaker 2: Armenia as it comes and goes as a country. Instead,

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about the Armenian people. And I

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Speaker 2: just want to point out that this is they are

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Speaker 2: in some ways distinct, right. I had always assumed, like, oh, Armenians,

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Speaker 2: those are people who live in Armenia, and that's my

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Speaker 2: white Americans, like Irish people are from the island of

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Speaker 2: Ireland and everything simple, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Americans really often conflate like nation and state because

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Speaker 3: of the nature of American nationalism and stayhood. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: I think a lot of it. Even if you're from Europe,

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Speaker 3: break you can understand the Catalonius a nation but not

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Speaker 3: a state, and you have some kind of lived experience

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Speaker 3: of that. Yeah, And it can be again venturing into

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Speaker 3: things that I used to teach about when I would

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Speaker 3: still being a historian.

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Speaker 2: I mean that is part of why you were the guests.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate that you know a lot.

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Speaker 3: Of this stuff. Thank you. Yeah, people should read Benedict

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Speaker 3: Anderson if they want to know more about that.

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Speaker 2: So now we're going to jump over to a recent

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Speaker 2: friend of the pod, or at least recurring character of

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Speaker 2: the pod, the Ottoman Empire. And we talked a bunch

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Speaker 2: about the Ottoman Empire on the show. So I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to do a lot of it, but I'm going

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Speaker 2: to drill down a little bit further into how it

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Speaker 2: worked as a multi ethnic empire. I was talking to

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Speaker 2: an Armenian Greek friend about doing this episode, and the

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Speaker 2: way he put it was basically like, look, I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to go to bat for empires in general, but

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Speaker 2: the Ottomans just wanted your taxes and didn't give a

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Speaker 2: fuck what else you did. And this is an exaggeration,

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Speaker 2: and we're going to talk about some of the exceptions

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Speaker 2: to that over all, Like as far as empires go, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, big Empire fan Margaret Kiljoy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, they they're yeah, they're a minarchist, they're

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Speaker 2: not minarchist, but you know they do not begin that

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Speaker 2: discourse from da oh wow, let's start an Ottomans as

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Speaker 2: a discourse subject. I don't anyway. If anyone wants to

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Speaker 2: bring it up to me, just at me at.

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Speaker 3: I right, okay, on Twitter, and so she could be found.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the Ottoman Empire has a distinct advantage and a

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Speaker 2: distinct disadvantage of being on the Anatolian Peninsula aka Asia

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Speaker 2: Minor aka more or less what we call Turkey. Now,

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Speaker 2: this is an advantage because it's at the crossroads of

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Speaker 2: the world. It's at a disadvantage because it's at the

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Speaker 2: crossroads of the world. I am honestly not sure if

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Speaker 2: there's ever been a more invasion prone place. I got

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Speaker 2: really lost and sidetracked for a long time reading about

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Speaker 2: centuries of backs and forth of people invading this place.

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Speaker 2: My main takeaway was people really like invading this place.

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Speaker 2: The Turks, who are a distinct ethnic group from the

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Speaker 2: also generally Muslim Arabs, formed the Imperial Core, and they

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Speaker 2: won their empire by being seriously good warriors, highly mobile

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Speaker 2: cavalry with composite bows which are just basically like a

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Speaker 2: better bow technology, would go around and conquering and demanding

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Speaker 2: total surrender and bringing people into this empire. They ruled

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Speaker 2: huge trunks of Southwest Asia, North Africa, and Eastern Europe

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Speaker 2: for centuries. The Crusaders would like, comment and conquer shit,

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Speaker 2: and to be clear, the Crusaders also really like killing

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Speaker 2: non Catholic Christians. That crusaders not great people, not that

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Speaker 2: it would have been okay if they were. What I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to say is a crusader sucked. The Mongols would comment

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Speaker 2: and conquer shit. And the Ottoman Empire was at war

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Speaker 2: with Russia like basically always any pick a random year

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Speaker 2: and they were probably at war with Russia. But once

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Speaker 2: they conquered Constantinople from the Christians in fourteen fifty three

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Speaker 2: what's now Istanbul, they managed a pretty stable empire. That

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Speaker 2: particular battle was apparently very wild, like one day when

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Speaker 2: I've like completely lost all interest in everything else and

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Speaker 2: I'm entirely cynical. I'm absolutely going to run a history

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Speaker 2: podcast where I talk about people carrying boats over and

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Speaker 2: putting them down in harbors and shit.

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Speaker 3: But portage podcast.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly, it's actually specifically going to be about portage, Sophie,

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Speaker 2: Is that all right? We could do that, the portage

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Speaker 2: portage cast always be portaging.

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Speaker 3: Putage, always carry a boat. I see, I love it? Yes, please,

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Speaker 3: I love it? Yeah, great, Wow, this is perfect We

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Speaker 3: Narco Ottomans did. Anyway, there are authoritary bucks.

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to bat for them here, all right,

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Speaker 2: and now I'm about to say nice things about them.

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Speaker 2: As soon as they had constants noble, they were honestly

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Speaker 2: comparatively chill about it compared to the Christians. Jews and

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Speaker 2: Christians were immediately invited and sometimes maybe forced to come

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Speaker 2: live in the city alongside the Muslim population. By the

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Speaker 2: early five to fifteen hundreds, they kind of rule what's

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Speaker 2: the sort of known world? Because Western Europe is a

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Speaker 2: dinky little backwater, It is poor as fuck, and it

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Speaker 2: is not too politically powerful on the world stage at

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Speaker 2: this point. And what turned it around is that they

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Speaker 2: quote unquote discovered the New World and then robbed the

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Speaker 2: shit out of it. And it turns out that if

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Speaker 2: you rob a whole bunch of people of a bunch

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Speaker 2: of gold and enslave a bunch of people, you can

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Speaker 2: make money doing that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, not the best way to make money, no, But

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Speaker 3: you know what the best way to make money is, James,

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I do bug it. It's inserting adverts for

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Speaker 3: brands that are not at all problematic and your podcast.

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Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. I'm sure every thing that is about to

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Speaker 2: be advertised to you is something that I would wholeheartedly support.

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Speaker 2: Maybe maybe it's a pocket boat, like a tiny yeah,

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Speaker 2: so that you can carry it yep, brought to you

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Speaker 2: by pocketboat.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: I actually really kind of want one of those, like

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Speaker 2: folding kayak or canoes.

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Speaker 3: I ate shit so fucking hard in an inflatable canoe

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Speaker 3: on the fifty July, like I got fucking tumbled. It's

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Speaker 3: broken half like it folded. Okay, so they're not the

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Speaker 3: most reliable canoes. I gave mine to the folding one.

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Speaker 3: It gave to my friend in Moab who also stuffed

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Speaker 3: it in a fucking pocket and it folded on him.

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Speaker 3: I like, oh, yeah, he could have drowned.

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Speaker 2: Was this like white watering or what?

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Speaker 3: So he was white watering? I was surf kayaking. Okay.

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Speaker 2: See my plan is to go to this like small

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Speaker 2: lake that has toads and put my dog in the

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Speaker 2: canoe and then put me in the canoe and move

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Speaker 2: around at like two miles an hour.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I think you're more of a target demo. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you've made like kayak Twitter really mad now by conflating

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Speaker 3: kayak and canoe.

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Speaker 2: I know, although I do know how to do both,

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Speaker 2: I'm not very good at many sports. But I once

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Speaker 2: won a kayak race. Wow, And that's why I am

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Speaker 2: shelling for whatever comes next, because there wasn't a lot

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Speaker 2: of money in winning kayak race when I was thirteen.

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Speaker 2: Here you go, hi, Margaret Kiljoy. Here boy, the world

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Speaker 2: sure is a mess right now?

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Speaker 3: Huh.

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Speaker 2: Seems like every day there are more and more reasons

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Speaker 2: to get out into the streets and protest. That's why

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Speaker 2: when I get arrested, there's only one strategy, I trust.

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Speaker 2: I shut the fuck up. I say, I would like

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Speaker 2: to remain silent. I would like to talk to my lawyer,

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Speaker 2: and then I shut the fuck up. In the United

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Speaker 2: States of America, it's constitutionally protected and recommended by the

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Speaker 2: National Lawyers Guild. That's shut thg f u c k

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Speaker 2: up once again, Sahu t thche fuc k up, because

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Speaker 2: you can't talk yourself out of custody, but you can

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Speaker 2: talk yourself into a conviction.

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Speaker 4: Providing identification to law enforcement required in some states and situations,

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Speaker 4: giving them an address expedient in most circumstances. Never discuss

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Speaker 4: the events leading to arrest with anyone except your lawyer, doctor,

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Speaker 4: or therapist. Posting pictures of protests and actions on social

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Speaker 4: media may lead to complications. If you have already talked

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Speaker 4: to cops or experienced confusion about talking to cops, call

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Speaker 4: your attorney immediately, as these may be signs of more

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Speaker 4: serious legal problems. The concept of not talking to cops

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Speaker 4: does not provide legal advice, and the foregoing statements are

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Speaker 4: for informational purposes only. If you have specific legal questions,

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Speaker 4: consult an attorney.

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Speaker 2: And we're back. And So Europe went from warring kingdoms

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Speaker 2: to really really wealthy kingdoms because they took advantage of

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Speaker 2: the great deals that we offer heracles on media, and

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Speaker 2: they started modernizing their warships with new pocket boats and

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Speaker 2: forever change to the war. The Ottoman Empire, their main

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Speaker 2: advanced technology was basically bureaucracy. They were pretty good at it.

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Speaker 2: The ability to actually rule a massive empire and pull

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Speaker 2: taxes out of everyone took a lot of work, and

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Speaker 2: they had a really elaborate millet system for how they

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Speaker 2: handled ethnic and religious minorities. All of the different millets,

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Speaker 2: all of the different groups of people. They all had

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Speaker 2: different costumes that I think they had to wear. I

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Speaker 2: know they weren't allowed to wear a bunch of different

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Speaker 2: colors very specifically. I ended up with like kind of

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Speaker 2: mixed answers about whether or not they had to wear these.

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Speaker 2: But Greeks wore sky blue hats with black slippers, Armenians

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Speaker 2: wore dark blue and later red hats with violet slippers,

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Speaker 2: and Jews wore yellow hats with blue slippers. Wow, they

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Speaker 2: color coded their minorities. Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure I

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Speaker 2: love that. No, I'm going to say all the bad

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Speaker 2: stuff now. Yeah, non Muslim men couldn't marry Muslim women.

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Speaker 2: Church steeples couldn't be higher than the minarets on mosques,

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Speaker 2: church bells were banned Christians, couldn't dress like Muslims. They

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Speaker 2: couldn't build tall houses or buy slaves truly in oppression,

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Speaker 2: that last one. Yeah, and most importantly in a way

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Speaker 2: that'll come up as a major problem. They couldn't carry weapons.

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Speaker 2: They also paid a millet tax, which was a tax

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Speaker 2: that Muslims didn't have to pay. Yeah, but this tax

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Speaker 2: also exempted them from military service. Partly, we'll get into it. Overall,

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Speaker 2: the Ottoman Empire, like basically, this was so much better

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Speaker 2: than Europe for religious minorities, and it's just incredibly shameful

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Speaker 2: that that's the case, right, Europe was in a kill

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Speaker 2: the heretic phase where for really long time they were

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Speaker 2: in this phase. If you disagreed about like the Third Council,

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Speaker 2: the Nicean Commission on the Nature of the Trinity or whatever,

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Speaker 2: they would fucking burn you alive. So I'd rather wear

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Speaker 2: a silly hat. Yeah, Yeah, it's true.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I lame as Yes.

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Speaker 2: And they were allowed their own legal systems and autonomous

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Speaker 2: structures as long as they stayed loyal to the Sultan.

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Speaker 2: Leaders of these millets were often powerful actors within the

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Speaker 2: Ottoman Empire, And of course we're talking about a huge

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Speaker 2: swath of land over the course of like six hundred years,

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Speaker 2: so things ebbed and flowed. Author Eric Bogosian who wrote

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Speaker 2: the book Operation Nemesis, which is a very good book

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Speaker 2: that does a lot better of a job than anything

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Speaker 2: else that I read about Operation Nemesis. It lays it

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Speaker 2: out that words like Armenian and Turk really only started

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Speaker 2: getting used regularly at the end of the nineteenth century. Quote.

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Speaker 2: Aside from their respective religious faiths, the two peoples are

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Speaker 2: in many ways congruent in their culture and style. Both

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Speaker 2: people call roughly the same vast territory home, and for

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Speaker 2: a thousand years they would intermarry and there's just a

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Speaker 2: ton of intermingling and the thing about like they called

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Speaker 2: the same area home. I feel like it's important because

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Speaker 2: we have this idea like ethnanationalism. It's like, oh, everyone

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Speaker 2: gets an Ethno state and it's all distinct areas because

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Speaker 2: everyone grew up in different areas and they just have

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Speaker 2: to go back to their corner. I don't like ethno nationalism.

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Speaker 2: You'll be shocked to learn. And it's just not true

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Speaker 2: right that Armenia and Turkey are like separate. I mean,

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Speaker 2: they're separate they're distinct, right, they're culturally distinct, but.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they know distinct geographical entities with like this fictive

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Speaker 3: ethnicity that. Yeah, people are tied by their blood to

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Speaker 3: the soil.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And like a little like shot Collars where if

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Speaker 2: you go past the electric fence, the invisible fence, you know,

403
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Speaker 2: like you.

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Speaker 3: Get a beep thin a zapp. Yeah, and don't give

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Speaker 3: Joe Biden any ideas he's already doing it. No, that's true.

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Speaker 2: A big listener of this podcast Joe Biden, because he

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Speaker 2: got really confused and he was like, I think I

408
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Speaker 2: like stuff. I don't know what I like anymore.

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Speaker 3: People I like ice cream?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I do like ice cream? So much in common

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Speaker 2: with that man anyway. Okay, have you heard about this

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Speaker 2: system where Christians had to give up a certain percentage

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Speaker 2: of their kids to the Ottoman Empire?

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Speaker 3: I have, unfortunately, h once again, this is this is

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Speaker 3: a thing that uh, like, world history is informed by

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Speaker 3: like this idea. The teaching of world history in the

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Speaker 3: Mode University is informed by the idea that, like the

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Speaker 3: state is the final and best organization of mankind, and

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Speaker 3: therefore we have to study these giant, massive states and

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Speaker 3: empires and that's how we understand human history. Right I am,

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Speaker 3: as an anarchist, don't believe that. But yes, unfortunately, this

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Speaker 3: is a thing that was on Sidyby.

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Speaker 2: It's it's interesting. And when I say interesting, I mean

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Speaker 2: that is like a literal sense in that is a

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Speaker 2: a different way of doing things than that than what

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Speaker 2: like Western Europe was doing. Right. Yeah, there was a

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Speaker 2: system where starting in the fourteenth century, a certain percentage

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Speaker 2: of boys born to Christian homes were requisitioned as slave labor.

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Speaker 2: Kids as young as seven and as old as twenty

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Speaker 2: were taken over to Constantinople and raised in Muslim families

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Speaker 2: and converted to Islam and then became slaves to the state.

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Speaker 2: And slavery is always always bad, but American listeners will

433
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 2: conflate all slavery with the unique cars of chattel slavery

434
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 2: in the US, and it's important to understand that these

435
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:29,679
Speaker 2: are distinct without putting moral positions on it. Many of

436
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 2: these formerly Christian boys became like the sultan's personal guards.

437
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 2: Many wound up with power and prestige. They would become

438
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 2: government ministers, which were called slave administrators and provincial governors,

439
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 2: and there were several Grand viziers, which is the position

440
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 2: just below sultan, and sultan was often just a figurehead

441
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 2: except for a few forceful, powerful personalities throughout history. So

442
00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 2: sometimes these literal civil servants, these these slave iministrators, were

443
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 2: the most powerful political actors in the empire. Some Muslim

444
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 2: families would pretend their kids were Christian so that they

445
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 2: could taken up by this, because it was a path

446
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 2: to prestige. And now mostly this is like, well, if

447
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 2: only everyone wasn't so poor that this seemed like the

448
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,439
Speaker 2: way to do things. But whatever, And while they're supposed

449
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 2: to cut ties with their families, many of them use

450
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 2: their positions of power to help out their families. This

451
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 2: system declined in the seventeenth century. It ended by sixteen

452
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 2: forty eight because Ottoman soldiers wanted to recruit their own

453
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 2: kids into the army instead of the sons of Christian families. Meanwhile,

454
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 2: the Ottoman Empire is in a state of perpetual war

455
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 2: because they're basic philosophy and this like whenever I read

456
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 2: shit from like Western authors, even like Armenian American authors

457
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 2: and stuff like that, whenever I read stuff that says

458
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 2: things like this, I get a little bit like is

459
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 2: this Orientalysm, like what's going on? Right, because because you're

460
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 2: Europe is obsessed with like this like fantasy version of

461
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 2: the Ottoman Empire, right, yeah, and some of it is

462
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 2: based on reality, like you know, the Harem system and

463
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 2: all kinds of things, right, but best as I can tell,

464
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 2: and so like I have a like second guess and

465
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 2: a doubt right that I want to sow the seeds

466
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 2: of doubt about the things that like almost anything written

467
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 2: in English, you know, Yeah, the Ottoman Empire is in

468
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 2: a state of perpetual war because their basic philosophy divides

469
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 2: the world into the House of Islam aka their empire

470
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,360
Speaker 2: and the House of War aka everywhere they haven't yet conquered.

471
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,640
Speaker 2: By the end of the Ottoman Empire, about a third

472
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 2: of its population was European, a third Anatolian like what's

473
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 2: now Turkey, and one third Arabian and or North African.

474
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 2: And this was almost evenly split between Muslims and Christians,

475
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 2: with a sizable minority of Jews. The Christians and the

476
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 2: Jews in the Ottoman Empire filled similar rules as Jews

477
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 2: wound up leaning Christian Europe basically like non aristocratic trades

478
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 2: that Muslims were more likely to avoid artisans, merchants, traders, bankers.

479
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,439
Speaker 2: This is not to say that most Armenians were middle class.

480
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,360
Speaker 2: Most of them were dirt poor peasants. We'll get into it,

481
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 2: but a lot of this middle class did was filled

482
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 2: by Christians. Social class, which had religious and ethnic components,

483
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 2: was the division talked about more often than religion, although

484
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 2: religion determined your access to social class. The Askiri were

485
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 2: a class of military administrators aka the professional Ottoman and

486
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 2: they were exclusively Muslim and this included court officials and

487
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 2: clerics as well as the military, whereas the rahea were

488
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 2: basically the tax paying class, and these include Christians, Muslims,

489
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 2: and Jews. Then about a fifth of the Ottoman Empire,

490
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 2: at least in the sixteenth and seventeenth century were the

491
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 2: cool the slaves, and some of those were high class,

492
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 2: but not all of them, like we talked about, And

493
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 2: that's the Ottoman Empire and how Armenians were living for

494
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 2: centuries in this kind of relative peace. But you know,

495
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 2: I wouldn't be mad at someone who was like, I

496
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 2: don't like living this way and I don't want to

497
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 2: live this way anymore.

498
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, can I drop you my favorite random Ottoman Empire fact.

499
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 3: Please do I feel like that's one day I'll do

500
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 3: a whole episode on this. But so, Suliman Shah is

501
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 3: like the kind of fictive father of the Ottoman Empire, right,

502
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 3: and I guess it is one of the notable founders,

503
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 3: not not necessarily the founder, but one of the notable

504
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 3: kind of founders the Automo Empire. His tomb is like

505
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 3: supposed to be the site in Syria twenty fifteen, in

506
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 3: the peak of the civil war in Syria, Turkey sent

507
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 3: an entire fucking army column to scoop up the tomb

508
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 3: and the forty dudes who are guarding it, forty Turkish

509
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 3: guys just hanging out around this tomb and move it

510
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 3: back too closer to the Turkish border. Whoa like just

511
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 3: a unilateral military operation to find a dead guy? Like,

512
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 3: I know it would be a great film, and I

513
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 3: think that it's like, especially when we talk about like

514
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 3: modern Turkey denying the Armenian genocide, you can see a

515
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 3: lot of like it's not I don't know whatever, I'm

516
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 3: not enough of an expert on current affairs, but like, yeah,

517
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 3: there's a lineage. Yeah, Ottomanism is not like absent from

518
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 3: the discourse and identity in Turkey.

519
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 2: Now, so the nineteenth century hits and I feel like

520
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 2: the subtext of the show besides, everyone dies of tuberculosis

521
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 2: if you don't get murdered by the state is the

522
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 2: nineteenth century changes everything in the world. Everything started changing

523
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 2: and fast. In the mid nineteenth century, rebellion broke out

524
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 2: in the Balkans against the Ottoman Empires. This is where

525
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 2: the word Balkanization comes from. Where things break up, and

526
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 2: you famously get the rise of nationalism, which buy and

527
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 2: large made everything worse. And this is when media started

528
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 2: doing things like Turkey is mad or well, I guess

529
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 2: they would have said the Ottomans are mad.

530
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 3: You know.

531
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 2: It's when we start like like Britain will raise his

532
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 2: mighty I don't know how they do to Britain her

533
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 2: mighty fists Britannia or John Bull depending okay, And so

534
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 2: you start having this idea that like, nations are people,

535
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 2: not just that people make up nations or whatever. Right, Yeah,

536
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 2: most Armenians at this point are poor, rural peasants, although

537
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 2: in larger towns and cities you have that modern class

538
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 2: of artisans and merchants. But most Armenians are living medieval

539
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 2: lives in the nineteenth century, Like they are not hanging

540
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 2: out under electrical light or glass windows. There's even this

541
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 2: thing where like when they talk about like westernization, they're like,

542
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 2: they're trying to come in here with their glass windows.

543
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 2: And I'm like, it's one of those things that I

544
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 2: like don't.

545
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: Like.

546
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 2: Every now and then I'm trying to like write like

547
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,479
Speaker 2: medieval era fantasy, and I'm like, I don't think they

548
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 2: had windows, like we understand them, you know.

549
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, it wouldn't be practical in the absence of a

550
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 3: good glass.

551
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. Like in colder places you had scraped hide I think, okay,

552
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 2: in warmer places you were like, that's a hole in

553
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: the wall.

554
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, we just made a hole here.

555
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:32,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. So they're living medieval lives. They're using hand looms,

556
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,479
Speaker 2: blacksmiths are fixing plows. They live in mud walled houses

557
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 2: and all that shit. Even bigger towns might not have

558
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 2: a single telephone. There's no paved roads, no railroads. A

559
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 2: lot of the folks, the Christians in the countryside are

560
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 2: essentially surfs. When the land was sold, the peasants came

561
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 2: with the sale. Meanwhile around them were the Kurdish tribes,

562
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 2: another distinct ethnic group in the area, but one that

563
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 2: was pastoralist and nomadic, and things were famously not great

564
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 2: between these two groups. The Muslim Kurds were allowed to

565
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 2: take more or less any liberties they wanted with the Christians,

566
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 2: often like moving into people's houses for the winner without

567
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,239
Speaker 2: asking and things like that. This antagonism was set up

568
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 2: on purpose by the Ottoman rulers to have the Armenians and.

569
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 3: The Kurds at each other's throats and such cases. Yeah,

570
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 3: this is how empires work. Like, Yeah, I was just

571
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 3: talking to some friends in Mema right now about how

572
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 3: like the Hunter is very clearly trying to set up

573
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 3: the Rahingia against other people in Rakine. Like it is

574
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 3: a tale as old as time with empire, and it works.

575
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 3: It worked for a very long time. I'm happy to

576
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 3: say that all the Kurdish organizations that I pay attention

577
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 3: to have all talked about this openly and admitted the

578
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 3: role of Thirds in the Armenian genocide. Yeah, unlike the

579
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 3: country of Turkey. Yes, Turkish individuals, many Turkish individuals are

580
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 3: very aware of it and are sorry.

581
00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 2: Go ahead, what were we gonna say?

582
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 3: No? I met a really interesting guy not so long

583
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 3: ago at the border who essentially was his grandparents I believe,

584
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 3: had been Armenian but had given their son to a

585
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 3: Kurdish family at the time of the Armenian genocidekind and

586
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 3: did like look after my little baby, like they're genociding us.

587
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 3: And yeah, he had only found this out in his

588
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 3: attempt to document his family as part of his asylum application,

589
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 3: and was like trying to explain, like as someone who

590
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 3: identified as Kurdish, Like that's a really fucking the weird

591
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 3: situation to be in, right, you're finding that, like your

592
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 3: identity is Kurdish and you know, but yeah, your grandfather,

593
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 3: I guess your grandfather was as a little baby like

594
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 3: given to a Kurdish family. But then like Kurdish people

595
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 3: are also complicit in this.

596
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 2: Right, No, this is actually this comes up a lot

597
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: in that a lot of Armenian survivors of the genocide

598
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 2: survived by either I hadn't read about. I believe it.

599
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 2: I believe this man's version. I believe this man's story,

600
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 2: but most of what I've read about our survivors who

601
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 2: have been like taken into Muslim families by force, and

602
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 2: so you have and then also just like if you

603
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 2: say you are now Turkish and change your religion, we

604
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 2: won't kill you. And so there's this whole thing in

605
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 2: the nineteen eighties I think where a ton of Turkish

606
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 2: folks were like, holy shit, my grandparents were Armenian, and

607
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 2: like we only found out when they were like dying

608
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 2: and on their deathbeds being like, you know, hey, actually

609
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 2: I was a Christian, you know.

610
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,240
Speaker 3: Damn yeah.

611
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 2: But anyway, so in the countryside in nineteenth century, the

612
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 2: Kurds and the Armenians are being played against each other.

613
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 2: The country wanted to modernize to have a chance militarily

614
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 2: and economically against Europe. And one of the things that

615
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 2: keeps coming up in nineteenth century history is you start

616
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 2: being like, oh, everyone in a constitution because it's like

617
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 2: good for liberty and stuff, and like slowly you start

618
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 2: being like the power. I think a lot of people

619
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 2: did want it for good reasons. A lot of people

620
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 2: were like, oh no, that's a that's the better system

621
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 2: by which to create a modern military and be able

622
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 2: to like continue to exert power on the world stage

623
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 2: and not be conquered is to have a constitution.

624
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, generally, liberally, like nineteenth century liberalism was heavily tied

625
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 3: to like militarism, right.

626
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, So in eighteen seventy six, this secret society called

627
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 2: the Young Ottomans that had been around for a while,

628
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 2: and this is different than the Young Turks. They managed

629
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 2: to get a constitution in a parliament set up, and

630
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 2: their name was inspired by a similar movement, the Young Italians,

631
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 2: which at some point I'm going to cover the unification

632
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 2: of Italy and because a lot of leftists were really

633
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 2: excited about at the time and now it's really awkward.

634
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 2: But that same year, the new sultan, who had agreed

635
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 2: to the constitution was like, nah, never mind, that's enough

636
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,959
Speaker 2: of that. I thought I wanted a constitution, I actually don't.

637
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 2: Democracy sucks. I'm in charge. By eighteen seventy eight, the

638
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:06,720
Speaker 2: pretense of democracy was gone. Three years later, the Empire

639
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 2: basically went bankrupt. European bankers stepped in and the Empire

640
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 2: became an economic colony of the West. European powers had

641
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 2: rights over railroads, shipping, mining, water banks, mineral rights, just everything.

642
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 2: But you know what else is an economic colony of

643
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 2: Western corporate interests US.

644
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 5: Sadly, yes, it's us, good, good, great here's some ads.

645
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 3: Welcome back.

646
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 2: I think that was my most cynical a transition.

647
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, that one.

648
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 2: From its brief flirtation with constitutional monarchy, the seeds of

649
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 2: change had been sown because like, Okay, as much as

650
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, like it's all like as cynicals I

651
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 2: am about constitutional monarchy, whatever it's it's still better than autocracy.

652
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 2: Like I get why people fought for this, you know.

653
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 2: And new groups popped up to modernize the empire. Most

654
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 2: at the beginning wanted to continue to have a religiously

655
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 2: pluralistic but still Islamic society. That's like they were like, look,

656
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 2: our vibe kind of works for us, Like why would

657
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 2: we fuck that up? Like, of course the Christians are

658
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 2: allowed here as long as we get to like our

659
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 2: minarets are taller.

660
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 5: You know.

661
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,280
Speaker 2: One of these new groups was called the Young Turks,

662
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 2: and they start off kind of good. Then they turn

663
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 2: out to be more or less the precursors of the

664
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 2: Nazis in terms of should we genocide religious minorities. We'll

665
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 2: come back to them. The Sultan he had a problem.

666
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 2: He's trying to do this autocracy thing right, and the

667
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 2: problem is that ethnic minorities weren't being ruled well enough.

668
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 2: And I think the first problem he tried to solve

669
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 2: in this way was the quote unquote Kurdish problem.

670
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 3: When you're referring to a group of people and then

671
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 3: using the word problem afterwards, bad sign.

672
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 2: This is part of why I'm going to call them

673
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 2: the precursors of the Nazis. All of the like phrasing

674
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:16,280
Speaker 2: of like the following problem and the solution to that problem.

675
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 2: Like it just I mean there's literally German officers taking

676
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 2: notes ding.

677
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, there's yeah, there's more than a

678
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 3: rhetoric shed between these two.

679
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 2: Uh so, yeah, this Kurdish problem. Nomadic people are hard

680
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 2: to rule. The best chance most dictators have is to

681
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 2: leverage the militaristic society of nomadic people for their own aims.

682
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 2: So Hamid the Sultan broke up the largest tribes of

683
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 2: the Kurds and killed a bunch of their leaders, and

684
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,760
Speaker 2: then co opted a bunch of them into a paramilitary

685
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 2: force called the Hamadie, which he named after himself. And

686
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 2: if yeah, and if this sounds familiar to what the

687
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 2: Czar did or the Cossacks, because you've been found along

688
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 2: a cool zone media book club and I was reading

689
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,439
Speaker 2: about that a while ago. It's because it's the same

690
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 2: fucking thing, and this is okay, this is a rabbit

691
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 2: hole I want to ask you about. Yeah, the overlap

692
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 2: between the Kurds and the Cossacks is really interesting because

693
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 2: both are nomadic horse tribes that wind up being the

694
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,880
Speaker 2: shock troops of reaction and then wind up being the

695
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 2: core of two of the most impressive, large scale anti

696
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 2: authoritarian socialist societies the world's ever seen.

697
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is an interesting parallel.

698
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 2: And during that one, Makno was a Cossack and he

699
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 2: led the anarchist Ukrainian Project, while the Kurds have spearheaded

700
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 2: the autonomous region of Northeast Syria that exists currently, and

701
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 2: their pluralistic society is built on democratic and federalism.

702
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's nice. And there are like, I know, there

703
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 3: are like Havalds from Curtis Dan who are fighting in

704
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 3: Syria now I'm sorry, in Syria in Ukraine, now okay

705
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 3: with there, And there are also Cossack folks playing there,

706
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 3: and there were like horizontally organized units that might comprise

707
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 3: both of them. I don't know. I'm talking to one

708
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 3: of them soon, so we'll find out.

709
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 2: And it's like interesting because like a lot of people,

710
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 2: whenever you have like these, you know, a nomadic culture

711
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 2: that becomes like shock troops of reaction, people are like, oh,

712
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 2: it's because they're so fighty, but you're like, well, also

713
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 2: they're like refusal to be ruled. Also has a cultural

714
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 2: tendency towards anti authoritarian socialism.

715
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, like the idea of like martial races is inherently

716
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 3: tied to empire, right, Like, at some point everyone was fighty,

717
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 3: and then yeah, they're totally the folks that they couldn't

718
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 3: subdue became the ones who they painted as barbarians totally.

719
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's just so interesting the way that that

720
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 2: sometimes those groups are still like the more privileged group

721
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 2: within within a system, like on some level the Kurds.

722
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 2: But then again you can see how much good it

723
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 2: did them to be slightly more privileged, because then in

724
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 2: the eighteen nineties the sultan was like, eh, let's just

725
00:40:57,960 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 2: kill you all, you know.

726
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it has continued.

727
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, so these broken up Kurdish tribes get even more

728
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,919
Speaker 2: violent and banditry prone because their society has been disrupted, right,

729
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,800
Speaker 2: and they're largely taking it out on the rural Armenians.

730
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:20,280
Speaker 2: Then in eighteen ninety four eighteen ninety six, the Sultan

731
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 2: was like, hey, would you just go crush the Armenians.

732
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 2: They're too friendly with Russia. So hundreds of thousands of

733
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 2: Armenians were slaughtered. They were burned alive, they were aflayed,

734
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 2: they were raped, they were dismembered. It's a really bad time.

735
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 2: This is sometimes called the first Armenian genocide. And this

736
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 2: started what's also to be uh has been called if

737
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,320
Speaker 2: if this was Wikipedia, people will be very angry because

738
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 2: I'm saying has been called and saying I'm saying who

739
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 2: called it that? And the answer is a bunch of

740
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 2: books I read. They started a culture of massacre, and

741
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,439
Speaker 2: since the Christians weren't allowed to bear arms, there wasn't

742
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,760
Speaker 2: a time they could do about it, at least not legally.

743
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 2: They did do quite a lot about it through friend

744
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:16,320
Speaker 2: of the pod crime, Crime that we'll talk about on Wednesday.

745
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 3: That's my that's my Cliffhanger. I promise you crime. Yeah, right,

746
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 3: very rare to have crime on this podcast. So exciting

747
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 3: for us.

748
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,399
Speaker 2: But I don't know, how are you feeling so far?

749
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 3: Well, it's a part of the world I've recently visited,

750
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 3: so yeah, yeah, and then I've been watching the football

751
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 3: recently and seeing a lot of a lot of a

752
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 3: lot of Gray Wolf salutes, which is really a stadium

753
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 3: full of people doing a fascist salute. Is not a

754
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 3: thing that I'd expected to see in Germany again, but

755
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,320
Speaker 3: here we are. Wait, were the Gray Wolves in Germany

756
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 3: doing it? Yeah? The Grey Wolves is the largest right

757
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 3: wing group in Germany, which is impressive given that Germany

758
00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:58,240
Speaker 3: is Germany.

759
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, right, what's the German So the Gray Wolves,

760
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 2: which I only vaguely know about, but anyone who's listening,

761
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 2: it's a Turkish far right nationalist group, right, yeah, ultranationalists

762
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 2: pan Turkish.

763
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:15,240
Speaker 3: They conceive of Turkey that being a mono ethnic Sunni

764
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 3: Islamic state that expands across much of the old Ottoman

765
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 3: Empire to unite Turkic people, right, Okay, they are Yeah,

766
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 3: the street fighters at MHP they people can listen to

767
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,879
Speaker 3: a podcast what it could Happen here where my friend

768
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 3: Sherien and I talk about the Mirage massacre and the

769
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:40,879
Speaker 3: Gray Wolves and why Turkish bobs are beating Syrian refugees

770
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 3: this week in Turkey. It's great, It's very affirming stuff.

771
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 3: But yeah, the Gray Wolves are the right wing ultranationalists,

772
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,720
Speaker 3: street fighting kind of movement of Turkish ulter nationalism. Yeah.

773
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 2: And if you're a metal head and you want to

774
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 2: be mad, their salute is distinct from throwing the horns,

775
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 2: but hard to tell. Yeah, it's distinct from throwing the horns.

776
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 3: It's close. Or if you're a shadow puppetella, then really

777
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 3: if you've been previously doing the little dog, yeah, problematic now.

778
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 2: Which is really low on the list of reasons why

779
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:16,720
Speaker 2: we need to destroy them.

780
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, just imagining like a just a street fighting branch

781
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 3: at a shadow puppet movement, fucking them up.

782
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,800
Speaker 2: I mean I think about like like twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen,

783
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 2: I would like go to these anti Trump rallies in

784
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 2: like a small southern town, and the localhema groups, the

785
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 2: historical European martial arts books who are just like poor

786
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,359
Speaker 2: rural biker nerds who are amazing and lovely people would

787
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 2: show up with their like heathens against hate signs and

788
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 2: like they're like you know, medieval kit right, Yeah, And

789
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 2: part of it is just like get those runs out

790
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 2: of your fucking mouth. Yeah yeah, yeah, like fuck you, yeah,

791
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 2: again like I can't see that and not have a

792
00:44:59,000 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 2: certain reaction.

793
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 3: But at the same time, yeah, those people were they

794
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:04,359
Speaker 3: were first on the ruin shit.

795
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And so I appreciate the work that people

796
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:11,959
Speaker 2: have put into and not like because there's one version

797
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 2: of the putting in the work where you're like, hey,

798
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 2: no one should use runes anymore because Nazis have them,

799
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 2: and another that's like, we will fucking take those back

800
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 2: from the Nazis by before all the Nazis and having

801
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 2: the fact that we street fight Nazis while using these

802
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 2: change what people's perception is.

803
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that for them. Yeah, be a Viking

804
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 3: against fascism.

805
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, but don't throw the horns in the wolf way.

806
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 3: That's my keep those two middle fingers tight tight into

807
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 3: the palm you did, or do it like the really

808
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 3: awkward way where you kind of have the thumb out

809
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 3: even though you're like not supposed to.

810
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 2: But it doesn't only matter, you know, Yeah, the.

811
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 3: Ship is sailed now, but at least people know what

812
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 3: you're doing, I guess.

813
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 2: Anyway, when we come back on Wednesday, we will talk

814
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 2: about how the Armenians formed massive revolutionary socialist organizations committed

815
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 2: to doing terrorism against the people who were murdering them,

816
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 2: which is classic cool people coose Yeah, stand by of

817
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 2: the show. Well, yeah, I mean thing you could plug.

818
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 2: I guess you'd just plugged her.

819
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 3: Yeah. I do a podcast, but it could happen here.

820
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 3: It's also on cool Zone Media. You can listen to

821
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 3: it by typing it could happen here podcast into your

822
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 3: machine as search as the Internet and it will come

823
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 3: up and you will find a podcast every day. And

824
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 3: I am writing a book for ak Press about anarchist

825
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 3: at War that involves some of the people we've spoken

826
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 3: about today, and you can read it eventually when I

827
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 3: finish it.

828
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 2: Does that have a working title?

829
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 3: So I wanted to do We renounce everything but victory,

830
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 3: which is the last words that Buenaventors Luti spoke well,

831
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:58,720
Speaker 3: which I think is cool but still unsure. I always

832
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:02,360
Speaker 3: feel like any any really cool speech which is attributed

833
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 3: to de Ruti, you have to work really hard to

834
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:07,760
Speaker 3: ascertain if he actually said that or anything like it,

835
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 3: or some Dutch dude made up.

836
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 2: I know, because his best quote wasn't actually probably said

837
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 2: by him.

838
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I don't care.

839
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 2: He would have said it.

840
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:19,279
Speaker 3: Fuck it, yeah, fuck it, yeah, he he hated a fascist,

841
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 3: and yeah, there's a new there's a new quote growing

842
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 3: in her hearts.

843
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 2: It's growing in anyway. I have a book coming out

844
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 2: in September. You can pre order it. I'm the Kickstarter

845
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 2: is done, but I'm still signing book plates for all

846
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 2: of the pre orders that go through Firestorm Books. The

847
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 2: book is called The Sapling Cage That September twenty fourth.

848
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 2: It's about a young trans witch who goes off and

849
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 2: joins the Witches, which implies that she didn't start as

850
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:49,839
Speaker 2: a witch, which is true. She didn't even start off

851
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 2: knowing that she was a girl.

852
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 1: I'm really enjoying it. Oh yeah, cool, that makes it

853
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 1: surfe endos my. It's my current plane book where I'm like,

854
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 1: all right, I need to be distracted from the fact

855
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 1: that I'm in this horrible metal death trap.

856
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:06,919
Speaker 2: Let's escape to another world.

857
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 3: That's where Margaret's books are always stocked in tiny submarines

858
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:12,800
Speaker 3: that billionaires go on.

859
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 1: Now, oh yeah, they give that to them instead of like,

860
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: I don't know, something that could help them survive, like

861
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 1: maybe not getting in one of those.

862
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, a brain, They're going to get down to the

863
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 2: bottom and be like, wait a second, I've been living

864
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,720
Speaker 2: my life all wrong. This capitalism thing is terrible for people.

865
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,240
Speaker 2: But by then it's too late they hear the rivets popping.

866
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Speaker 2: I should mention that Margaret I am doing. I did

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Speaker 2: a translation for Margaret Strange in a Tangled Wilderness zine

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Speaker 2: as well, which that'll be out at some point to

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Speaker 2: our Patreon backers and on our website Tangled Wilderness dot org.

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Speaker 2: I'm part of a collectively run publisher called Strangers in

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00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:53,919
Speaker 2: a Tangledilderness and we are publishing some of James translations

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00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 2: about the Spanish of war and how people romanticize it

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Speaker 2: too much, including us. Yes, and we'll see you on Wednesday.

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Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

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00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:12,760
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,

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00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 1: visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

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00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

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00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 1: your podcasts.