1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: Are you familiar with the I believe it's the upside 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: down pineapple? 3 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 2: No, what's if. 4 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: You put this like sticker or symbol on your door, 5 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: it means like you're a swinger, okay, or you're open 6 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: to swinging with other with other upside down pineapples. 7 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 2: As opposed to a regular pineapple. Well, then you're just 8 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 2: a door. 9 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 3: You're just like no one wants, no one wants to 10 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 3: swing with you. Hello. I'm Ed Helm's host of snaff Who, 11 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 3: my podcast about history's greatest screw ups, or, more specifically, 12 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 3: the show where I ask brilliant guests to help me 13 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 3: unpack some of the least brilliant moments in history and 14 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 3: in the process, perhaps understand ourselves a little bit better. 15 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 3: This week, I am talking with one of the legendary 16 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 3: TV journalists of our time. He's an anchor and Chief 17 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 3: Washington correspondent at CNN, host of The Lead with Jake 18 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 3: Tapper and State of the Union. He's also someone with 19 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 3: a shockingly dare I say, offensively expansive grasp of politics, history, 20 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 3: pop culture, world affairs, and so much more. He is 21 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 3: a delightful conversationalist and Emmy winner, A prolific author and 22 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 3: he has a brand new book out, Race Against Terror, 23 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 3: Chasing an Al Qaeda killer at the Dawn of the 24 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 3: Forever War. It's out now. 25 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: He is smart, thoughtful, funny, and a lot of people say, 26 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: we look like brothers. Please welcome Jake Tapper. 27 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. It's great to be here. 28 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 3: We do, we do. 29 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 2: There's a lot of forehead going on right now. Yeah, 30 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 2: on this podcast eight head, we went. 31 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, we had a ten head. One. 32 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: One might even say, well, I'm super grateful that you're 33 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: here and allowing us to be part of your free time. 34 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: Your passion for work is admirable, and it's just the 35 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: news cycle is so intense every day. I'm curious, is 36 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: that exhilarating for you as a journalist or is it 37 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 1: more just like a furious treadmill from hell, like a 38 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 1: Sisaphian torture, where you can't get into a story and 39 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: give it the depth it deserves. 40 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 2: That's a great question. I do remember. 41 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 4: So I've been a journalist for a long time, and 42 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 4: I do remember periods where there didn't seem to be 43 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 4: a lot to cover. There didn't you know, like you know, 44 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 4: times when I was an anchor. So since twenty thirteen 45 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 4: when I first got my own show, where like how 46 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 4: are we going to fill the hour today? 47 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: Was actually a question and that wasn't fun. 48 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 4: Although looking back on it, it's kind of a stupid 49 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 4: question because there's so much that you could report on, 50 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 4: but like in terms of like compelling news, interesting news, 51 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 4: it didn't seem as easy as it is now. Now, 52 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 4: does that mean I'm excited about the threats being made 53 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 4: to TV news stations by Donald Trump because I get 54 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 4: to cover it. No, I'm not. I'd I would prefer 55 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 4: that not be happening. But it is true that there 56 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 4: is no shortage of stuff to cover to the point 57 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 4: that I you know, we really have to prioritize. Sure, 58 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,399 Speaker 4: you know, there are times when there are like serious 59 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 4: erosions of democracy or what are traditions in the United 60 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 4: States that we're used to, such as the president in 61 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 4: his administration using the power of the government to silence 62 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 4: and squelch speech and speakers they don't like, mister Kimmel 63 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 4: being the most recent example, and that you know that 64 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 4: also is a time and a cause for alarm. 65 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 3: Well, we should say that that's Kimmel is the most 66 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 3: recent example as of the date of recording. This. It 67 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 3: will be out later and we'll see you and. 68 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 2: I will be in Guantanamo by the time this post probably. 69 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 3: Oh god, that is grim. 70 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 2: Then they came for the podcasters exactly. 71 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 3: It's a good jumping off point because this story I 72 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 3: want to tell you today is rooted in another book 73 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 3: that a friend sent to me. Ryan Holliday, who you 74 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 3: may know is the host of the Daily Stoic podcast. 75 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 3: He gave me Eric Larson's incredible book Dead Wake. Do 76 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 3: you know this book? 77 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 2: No, I know Eric Larson, I don't know. 78 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 3: It's the story of the sinking of the Lusitania. 79 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 2: Oh wow. 80 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: It's written almost as a thriller, and it's just a 81 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: phenomenal piece of history writing. Ryan sent me this book 82 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 1: because he knows I'm a snaffoo nerd, and it's a 83 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: hell of a read, and it just struck me as 84 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 1: the perfect Jake Tapper story because it's not just about 85 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: a shipwreck. It's about politics, international conflict, and even a 86 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: fight over the narrative itself at the end of the day. 87 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: And that's just a battleground that you navigate every day 88 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: as a journalist. 89 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 3: So let's just. 90 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: Dive right in the sinking of the Lusitania. Now our 91 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: backdrop here, of course, is the Great wool aka World 92 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: War One. I don't want to get too bogged down 93 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: in the war itself, but basically, in nineteen fourteen, a 94 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: guy named Archduke Franz Ferdinand gets shot, and then Europe 95 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: basically just descends into a full on Looney Tunes bar fight. 96 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,799 Speaker 1: Austria swings at Serbia. Russia's like, oh hell no. Germany 97 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: hops up and smashes a chair over Russia and then 98 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: takes a swing at France, elbowing Belgium along the way. 99 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: This gets britten up off its stool, like, oh, I 100 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,799 Speaker 1: don't meshed with Belgium, and the Ottomans leap in. Japan 101 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: comes flying in through a window. It's just absolute chaos. 102 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: And then of course the Assembite samfires his pistol and 103 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,679 Speaker 1: the dust settles, and you've got two sides, the Central 104 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 1: Powers Germany, Austria, Hungary and the Ottoman Empire versus the 105 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: Allies Britain, France, Russia, Belgium, Serbia, Japan, Portugal and a 106 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: handful of others. 107 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 3: How did I do? Is that a good summary? 108 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 2: That's great? I love that? 109 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 3: Oh my god, all right, good, that's a little America. 110 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 4: Is America Yusemite Sam? Or was Yosemite Sam just a 111 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 4: thrown in refraen? 112 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 3: You know what he could he kind of could be. 113 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 3: But we're not there yet. 114 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 4: Because doesn't Yeah, because doesn't the US kind of come 115 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 4: in a little bit and save the day a little bit, 116 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 4: teeny bit. 117 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 3: In this metaphor, Yosemite Sam's just that guy that walks 118 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 3: into the saloon and kind of like and like shuts 119 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 3: everyone up for a second. 120 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 4: I know, Blackjack Pershing is a huge character in the 121 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 4: in the war. 122 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 2: That's what That's my main knowledge point. 123 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 3: Amen. The sort of initiation of World War One is 124 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 3: so fascinating because it just shows how a single spark 125 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 3: can just kind of ignite this simmering powder keg of tensions, 126 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 3: and I don't know, it feels like they're there are 127 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 3: It feels like this is just a recurring thing throughout 128 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 3: history and even perhaps all around us as we speak. 129 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, And like the Arab Spring, you know, if that 130 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 4: one merchant hadn't set himself on fire and protest in Tunis, 131 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 4: would the Arab Spring have even happened? Right, It's the 132 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 4: corollaria of the Great Man theory of just like one 133 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 4: man getting killed or setting himself on fire or whatever 134 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 4: that changes history. 135 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 2: That is the spark. 136 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. 137 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: I like the domino metaphor because these things just they 138 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: escalate so quickly and before you know it, there's so 139 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: many dominoes on the ground. 140 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 141 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: So the western front of the of the war, which 142 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: was the that's the bloody battle line across northern Europe 143 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: where Germany is trying to push into France. It gets 144 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: very quickly bogged down in this nightmare of trench warfare, 145 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: a brutal stalemate. But out on the ocean things are 146 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: a lot more dynam Britain threw up a massive naval 147 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: blockade to choke off German supplies. So Germany rolled out 148 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: its new toy, the U boat, which by the way 149 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,239 Speaker 1: is short for unter sea boot, a word that sounds 150 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: way scarier in German, but it literally just means under 151 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: sea boat, so thanks. 152 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 3: Guys for that. 153 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 2: Everything sounds scarier in German. 154 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: This is the first U boat, I believe, the very 155 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: first U boat. Yes, and these things were incredible feats 156 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: of technology for their day, about two hundred and ten 157 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: feet long, crewed by thirty five men, all crammed in there. 158 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: They were able to say, submerged for a few hours 159 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: at a time. They carried torpedoes as well as a 160 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: deck gun, and as you might imagine, life on board 161 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: was just a total nightmare. While diving, the subs became 162 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: unbearably hot, with diesel fumes, food rapidly spoiling. There was 163 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: so little fresh water that sailors never bathed ever, But 164 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: the payoff was huge. Throughout the war, the U boat 165 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,959 Speaker 1: sank thousands of tons of Allied shipping, casting a shadow 166 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 1: of fear that was far larger than the actual numbers themselves. 167 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 3: Could you do you think you could handle life on 168 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 3: a U boat? Oh? 169 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 4: God, no, I can't even handle going down in like 170 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 4: one of those water parks to look at like the 171 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 4: fish and the coral, Like I mean, I can scuba 172 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 4: di scuba dive, I like it, But that's free and open. 173 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 2: You had the. 174 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 4: Claustrophobic nature of a submarine. Sounds just I haven't even 175 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 4: seen das boot because of like, I don't, this seems 176 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 4: like it would be really awful. 177 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,839 Speaker 3: Oh, and the they were so dangerous. I mean, the 178 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 3: batteries were filled with sulphuric acid, and if any seawater touched. 179 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: Them it instantly turned into chlorine gas. Any I mean 180 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:46,079 Speaker 1: it was just a didn't this just. 181 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 4: Happened like ten years ago, like a Russian sub they 182 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 4: got stuck somewhere and they all died. 183 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 2: Do you remember this? 184 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:54,599 Speaker 1: This has happened a couple of times in Russian, This 185 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:55,439 Speaker 1: happens all the time. 186 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's all Russian, everyone or Soviet Russian, and they're 187 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 4: every one of these disasters, but they're it's been a bunch. 188 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 4: In two thousand there was one an explosion in the 189 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,319 Speaker 4: torpedo compartment caused a catastrophic event. All one hundred and 190 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 4: eighteen people were killed. But the one I was thinking 191 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:13,439 Speaker 4: about was in two thousand and eight, the Nerpa accident. 192 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 4: A crew member activated the fire suppressing system, releasing halon gas. 193 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 4: Twenty people died, forty other one injured. 194 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 2: I mean, it's just that kind of NonStop chemical risk. 195 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, you were talking about the second ago with like 196 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 4: this could turn into chlorine gas or whatever, like it's 197 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 4: all so insane. 198 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 3: Oh my god. 199 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: And just but just the claustrophobia alone probably would probably 200 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: kill me, Like I would have a heart attack. 201 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 2: Before naming your head against the wall exactly. 202 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: So America at this point was basically that guy at 203 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: the bar trying not to get dragged into the fight. 204 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: President Woodrow Wilson's official stance was strict neutrality, but to 205 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: be clear, we were still feeding the Allied war effort 206 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: with tons of financial credit, grain, oil, and weapons, et cetera. 207 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,319 Speaker 1: Maybe not that neutral. But this is where today's story 208 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: officially kicks in because Americans weren't just trading with Britain, 209 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: they were also hopping aboard British ships in the booming 210 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 1: transatlantic travel business. Enter the star of today's snafu the 211 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: RMS Lusitania. 212 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 2: It's an American ship or a British ship. 213 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 3: It is a British ship. 214 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: It is launched in nineteen oh six by the Cunard Line, 215 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: a huge passenger shipping enterprise. Here she is, yeah, and 216 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: all of her glory. 217 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:36,199 Speaker 2: Holy smokes, that's a big ship. 218 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 3: It's a big boat. Yeah. 219 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 4: No, no water slides, I'll note. 220 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's I'll give you a little rundown of some specs. 221 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: Seven hundred eighty seven feet long, eighty seven feet wide, 222 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: four steam turbines. You can see there are smokestacks there. 223 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: Carried over twelve hundred passengers and over six hundred crew, 224 00:11:55,679 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: had elevators inside, which was like a breathtaking marvel. The 225 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: first class suites had marble amenities, a wireless telegraph, and 226 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: it was fast. It was legit fast. It could go 227 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 1: twenty six knots or about thirty miles per hour, which 228 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: for a ship that big is just no joke. 229 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 2: This is before the Titanic sank. Right. 230 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: Titanic was nineteen twelve, but the Lusitania was launched a 231 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: lot earlier. It had a success, It had many successful 232 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:27,239 Speaker 1: transatlantic crossings. 233 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 4: The Lusitania is introduced and the Titanic has not yet 234 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 4: been sunk, and everyone's like, nobody's thinking that it's going 235 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 4: to sink. Everyone's thinking it's unsinkable because it's this big, 236 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 4: beautiful ship. 237 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 3: Exactly. 238 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: It's giant, it's beautiful, it's the latest technology, and it's 239 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: also incredibly fast. It goes about thirty miles an hour, 240 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: which is fast enough to win the Blue Ribond Prize. 241 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 3: Was the quickest ship across the Atlantic. 242 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 1: This is very significant the speed because it also it 243 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: also gave a sort of false sense of confidence to 244 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: q Nard as a company and the crew, the captain 245 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: and crew of the ship that they weren't subject to 246 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: threat from other from any sort of military enterprise because 247 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: they could. 248 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 3: Basically outscape, right, they could outrun just about anybody. Are 249 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 3: you a cruise guy in general? You ever? Do you 250 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 3: ever go on cruises? 251 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 4: I would, but my wife has made it very clear, 252 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 4: I think pretty early on in the relationship that that 253 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 4: was never going to happen. You're a David Foster Wallace fan. 254 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 4: He wrote a great essay for I forget if it 255 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 4: was The Atlantic or Harper's. I think probably harper Is 256 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 4: called a supposedly fun thing that I'll never do again. 257 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 3: Oh of course. Yeah. 258 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: And then Gary Steinart did another sort of like revamp 259 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: of that, a new one in the last few years. 260 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 4: I think a cruise sounds great if you are in 261 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 4: the mindset of all you can eat and drink, like 262 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 4: twenty year old me would love all you can eat 263 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 4: and drink. 264 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, fifty six year old me, no thanks. 265 00:13:58,000 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 3: I'm also a little freaked out by like a giant 266 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,719 Speaker 3: and seafood buffet. I don't know what it's just I 267 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 3: can't do. I used to I used to love that. 268 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 3: See oh, crabs, shrimp like load me up, lobster. 269 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 4: Unless you have control of the passenger list. Do you 270 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 4: want to be locked on a ship with people? 271 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 2: Yeah? People? 272 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 4: You're talking about people other people, right, Yes, younger people have. 273 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 3: Met some people. I've met some great ones, but. 274 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 2: You just talking about them. I'm not talking about the 275 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 2: great ones. That's not who's on the ship with you? 276 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 3: Are you? 277 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: Are you familiar with the I believe it's the upside 278 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: down pineapple? 279 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 3: No, there's it's like a it's a. 280 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: I read this somewhere that I think it's an upside 281 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: down pineapple. If you if you put this like sticker 282 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: or symbol on your door, it means like you're a swinger, 283 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: or you're open to swinging with other with other upside 284 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: down pineapples on the. 285 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 2: Coast to a regular pineapple. Go on, Jake, why you 286 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 2: can get married? I don't even understand it. 287 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 3: All right, never mind, I'm getting you a ticket for 288 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 3: a swinging cruise. 289 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 2: A swinging cruise. It's called the upside down pineapple. 290 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 3: Is there anything more of an aphrodisiac than than a 291 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 3: seafood buffet? 292 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 2: A seafood buffet on a swinging cruise? 293 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 3: Oh god, oh boy? 294 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: Diving back in here, okay, Lusitania got it, he got 295 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: way off track. On May first, nineteen fifteen, the Great 296 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: War is in full swing. The Lusitania left New York's 297 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: Peer fifty four bound for Liverpool. 298 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 2: And this is just a cru this is just a 299 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 2: cruise shift. 300 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 3: This is not a military The short answer is, yeah, sure, 301 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 3: of course that's what it is. 302 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: Nice at the helm was Captain William Thomas Turner, a 303 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: veteran mariner known for his steady hand. But the ship's 304 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: role was a bit more complicated than it looked. The 305 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: British Admiralty had helped bankroll the building of the Lusitania 306 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: with the understanding that she could be requisitioned in wartime. 307 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: So while on paper she was just a glamorous passenger liner, 308 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: in practice she and a number of ships like her 309 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: were sometimes carrying munitions alongside. 310 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 3: They're paying customers. 311 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 4: Can I just make an observation on that? Yeah, that's 312 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 4: some that's some dirty shit, Like that's not cool. 313 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 3: Well, especially because a lot of the passengers are completely 314 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 3: none the wiser. 315 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 2: All of them, except for the except for the except 316 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 2: for the semen. 317 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, are we back to the swinging. 318 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 2: Kat. 319 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 4: The crew, let's call them the crew. A pause, A 320 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 4: pause between the cales. 321 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: Next time, the Germans caught onto this, and by early 322 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: nineteen fifteen they declared the waters around Britain a war zone, 323 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: warning that even passenger ships might be targeted. Uh and 324 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: on the morning of the Lusitania's departure, the German embassy 325 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: even published that warning in very stark terms in New 326 00:16:58,280 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: York City newspapers. 327 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 3: So this was not a secret. 328 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: Now, if you were Captain William Turner, would you have 329 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: said sail under such conditions? 330 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 3: He was British, he was a brit. 331 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 4: He was probably, I mean, just based on my limited 332 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 4: knowledge of the UK and the military in the UK, 333 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 4: he probably was a navy veteran, and so I would 334 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 4: assume that he was loyal to the crown. And you know, 335 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 4: once a sail are always a sail. Like I, personally, 336 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 4: I don't know what I would have done. I like 337 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 4: to think that I would have been noble and loyal 338 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 4: and full of courage. But I'm just saying, like putting 339 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 4: myself in his shoes. He's a navy veteran, he hates 340 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 4: the bad guys in World War One. I don't know 341 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,640 Speaker 4: who is king or Queen at this point, but let's 342 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 4: just assume that they are calling him on the telegraph 343 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 4: and saying we need you to do that, we need 344 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 4: you to do this. 345 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 1: I don't First of all, that was a terrible British accent. 346 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 1: But I'm not a committee, so that's interesting you say 347 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: all that. I believe he came up through the merchant 348 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 1: marines and was and worked his way up as a 349 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: Cunard company man. Hey had tremendous experience, but I also 350 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: don't know for sure. 351 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 4: By the way, just just doing a quick search of 352 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 4: his fellow mister, captain Turner married his cousin, like right 353 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 4: off the bat. That's one of the first things I 354 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 4: learned about him. 355 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 3: Oh but Jake, it's a different time, is it? Isn't 356 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 3: that great? Isn't it insane when people say that, like 357 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 3: it was a different time. 358 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 2: He married his sister, Well, it's a different time. 359 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: It's like people explain away the most horrific shit with 360 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 1: it was a different time. 361 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 4: Let me just say that he's lucky that we don't 362 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 4: know his name as being the captain of a ship 363 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 4: that went down like. 364 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 2: He very easily could have. 365 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 4: He's basically gone down anonymously in history, but we could know, 366 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 4: like people could call each other, Oh you're such a turner. 367 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 3: Well, I don't know that. I don't know how much you're. 368 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 4: Suggesting he knew that there were British munitions that were 369 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 4: being smuggled in the show. 370 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: What he definitely knew, and what a lot of passengers 371 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: even knew, was that Germany had said, be careful because 372 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: that's a war zone, and we're taking out passenger ships 373 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: because we think some of them are carrying munitions. 374 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 3: Despite all this, the Lusitania just steamed forth her passengers, 375 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 3: trusting that speed and prestige and maybe a dash of 376 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 3: hubris would would carry them safely across. 377 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we can go thirty miles an hour. 378 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. They weren't so lucky. Things did not go 379 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 3: as planned on the U boat. 380 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 2: That you introduced in the at the beginning of the segment. 381 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 3: This is where he comes back. Yeah, exactly on the afternoon. 382 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 3: I like that Chekhov's U boat. Yeah, you can't introduce 383 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 3: a U boat in a story, I just assumed and 384 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 3: not have a torpedo get get tired out of it. 385 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: On the afternoon of May seventh, nineteen fifty six days 386 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: out from New York, the Lusitania was gliding past the 387 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: gorgeous southern coast of Ireland under clear skies when a 388 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: German U boat struck a torpedo slammed into her starboard side, 389 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: ripping open the hall. Moments later, a second explosion tore 390 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: through the ship. Now this second explosion is a sort 391 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 1: of is a very hotly debated subject. Some folks believe 392 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: it was the boiler getting sort of like jarred and 393 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: having an explosion. A lot of people think I think 394 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 1: the most common or the most sort of agreed upon 395 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: version is that the first torpedo impact actually kicked up 396 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: a ton of coal dust in the engine rooms. And 397 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: that's incredibly validile so like literally any spark in that 398 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: would cause an explosion that had happened to other ships. 399 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: But there were other sort of theories that perhaps the 400 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 1: torpedo had struck some of the munition store in the 401 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: belly of the ship and that's what caused an additional explosion. 402 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: That's uh, but we don't we don't really know for sure. 403 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: But an interesting tidbit, a quick flash forward into nineteen 404 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: ninety three, divers exploring the wreck of the Lusitania verified 405 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: the presence of munitions in her hold. Until then, it 406 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: was still contested and hotly contested, and records were conflicting. 407 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 3: And and and again. It's just unclear who knew what 408 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 3: and how and when people knew what. 409 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 2: But fascinating, Yeah, it was the coast. How far away 410 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 2: from Ireland? 411 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 4: Is? 412 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 3: Was the ship very close within sight? I think it 413 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 3: was about ten miles off the coast? Oh wow? 414 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 1: But that you know, but they could see Ireland from there. 415 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: But you are you sort of went here automatically. But 416 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 1: this all forces a brutal question, right, right, when villions 417 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: and weapons share the same ship, where do you draw 418 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: the line between a fair target and an atrocity. I mean, 419 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 1: there's like two thousand people on this boat, I. 420 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 4: Think, I mean, I think it's a huge question because, 421 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 4: first of all, this story shows that the idea of 422 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 4: using human shields well, I mean, I guess that wasn't 423 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 4: human shields in the sense of what we see in 424 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 4: the Middle East or whatever, because it wasn't as though 425 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,639 Speaker 4: they were advertising it. They were smuggling it. But there 426 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 4: is without question or responsibility that any government has when 427 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 4: they use a civilian vehicle or whatever to hide something 428 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 4: military related, because the conceit of civilized warfare is we 429 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:51,360 Speaker 4: don't target civilians, and once you as a country violate 430 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 4: that separation. 431 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 2: It is on you, not your enemy, for doing that. 432 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: I think I want to give a little more context 433 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: for sort of what was happening regarding the kind of 434 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: rules of war at that moment. So there was a 435 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: whole framework of sort of maritime rules and traditions, and 436 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: U boats had been expected to follow the Prize laws, 437 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: which are these sort of like maritime traditions, and this 438 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 1: in the case of this war, these laws required a 439 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 1: sub to surface and stop a merchant ship, check it 440 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: for contraband or weaponry or whatever, and if found, then 441 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: give passengers time to leave the boat before sinking it. 442 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: There was a German U boat U seventeen that sank 443 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: a British ship Glitra in October nineteen fourteen, and it 444 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 1: followed this playbook exactly. But surfacing left these submarines very vulnerable, 445 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: and the British were starting to exploit this, attacking this 446 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: as they were surfacing to follow the rules. 447 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 3: And so by nineteen fifteen, all of these rules were 448 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 3: in tatters. 449 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: And sometimes a ship was stopped politely, other times a 450 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: torpedo just came without warning. 451 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 2: It's so fast these is that wild. 452 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 4: The rules are so weird, And just the one that 453 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 4: I'm reminded of is the fact that the chemical warfare 454 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 4: in World War One was so horrific that they didn't 455 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 4: engage in chemical warfare in World War two. Right, even 456 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 4: the Nazis they gassed Jews and Poles and whatever in 457 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 4: the concentration camps, but they would not use chemical warfare 458 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 4: against the Brits and the Americans, et cetera. And it's 459 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 4: just these rules are so weird to me, because we 460 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,159 Speaker 4: can torture you over here, but not over here, you know. 461 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 2: It's so strange. Yeah. 462 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 3: And then you go back to like the Revolutionary War, 463 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 3: and the rules were just so rigid, like they would 464 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 3: soldiers would line up behind a drummer, yeah, and then 465 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 3: just shoot each other. 466 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: In an open field. It is wild if you think 467 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: about it, like the point of a war is just 468 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:12,640 Speaker 1: to win. But there is also this, and I guess 469 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: this says something good about humanity that there's this, There 470 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 1: is this kind of overarching morality that we want to 471 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: preserve human dignity. 472 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 4: Somehow, it's all such a slippery slope of hypocrisy. 473 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, And when one side starts to kind of break 474 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,160 Speaker 1: the rules, the whole structure whatever, this sort of rule 475 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: scaffolding just implodes. 476 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 3: It all collapses. 477 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 4: But you can always justify it because I'm sure the 478 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 4: Brits were like, well, we're breaking the rule, but the 479 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 4: Germans broke this rule to even start the war. 480 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 3: So back to our sinking of the Lusitania. It's struck 481 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 3: by the torpedo, A dire panic ensues. Most of the 482 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 3: lifeboats become impossible to launch because the shit was started 483 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 3: listing so severely to one side almost immediately. 484 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: It took just eighteen minutes for the entire ship to sink. Now, 485 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: for reference, it took the Titanic about two hours to sink. 486 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 4: Was there structural weakness or was it just this is 487 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 4: what happens when it torpedo hits the ship. 488 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 1: Well, it was this second explosion in the belly of 489 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 1: the ship that really like that, Like a single torpedo 490 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: hitting the Lusitania, A lot of historians believe should not 491 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: have taken it down. It shouldn't have necessarily like sunk it. 492 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 4: So it was likely the munitions that were hit in 493 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 4: the one or the coal dust explosion or whatever caused 494 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 4: that second explosion. 495 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 2: But the divers didn't solve that problem. They didn't solve that. 496 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 3: No, that is not clear. That that is not it's 497 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 3: that's still in the land of theory. 498 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 2: Okay. 499 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 3: The ship sank so fast and only a few lifeboats 500 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 3: were able to be long launched. The human toll was staggering. 501 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 3: Of the almost two thousand men, women and children aboard, 502 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 3: about twelve hundred perished. 503 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 2: Wow. 504 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: The exact numbers are still disputed, but the total also 505 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: included one hundred and twenty three Americans. Of course, this 506 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: headlines just were screamed across the world. Here's the New 507 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 1: York Times. 508 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 2: Wow, look at that. 509 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 4: Lusitania is sunk by submarine, probably two hundred and sixty dead, 510 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 4: twice torpedoed off Irish coast, sinks in fifteen minutes. Captain 511 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 4: Turner saved, Frohman and Vanderbilt missing. Washington believes that a 512 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 4: grave crisis is at hand. That's the headline. They weren't 513 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 4: very piff They weren't very pithy back then. No, if 514 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 4: CNN was around that, I mean that Chiron would be 515 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 4: the whole screen. That's a lot of information. Captain Turner saved. 516 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: He did not go down with the ship, did not 517 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: go down with the ship. Outrage erupted on both sides 518 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: of the Atlantic. This wasn't just another wartime tragedy. It 519 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: was a turning point. Let's move into the aftermath. Eric 520 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: Larson's book Dead Wake, which I cannot recommend more strongly 521 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: suggests that British intelligence may have actually known a U 522 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: boat was stalking her, or at least prowling around where 523 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,719 Speaker 1: the Lusitania was. They had captured German codebooks and cracked 524 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: naval ciphers, and they were reading the enemy messages, and 525 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: according to Larson, they knew a sub was patrolling the 526 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: very waters Lusitania was heading into, and yet they gave 527 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: no warnings. 528 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 2: That. 529 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: This is really interesting. There are a couple of factors 530 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: at play that I'm curious to get your take on. 531 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: Winston Churchill, who was at the time the Lord of 532 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: the admiralte felt that the Lusitania was a very badass 533 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: ship and really wasn't in that much danger because of 534 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: its speed and maneuverability, et cetera. But also there is 535 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: the cold logic of protecting secret intelligence, right because the 536 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: minute you act on secret intelligence, you might be revealing 537 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: that you have a way of acquiring secret intelligence which 538 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: endangers your code breaking, et cetera. It was felt that 539 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: to act on that would reveal too much and that 540 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: they're better off waiting for a bigger message of like 541 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: maybe a much more substantial naval maneuver that they could crack. 542 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 4: And this is the cold logic of an intelligence professional. 543 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 4: The Lusitania sinking doesn't actually hurt British the British war 544 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 4: effort beyond the loss of those munitions, and in fact 545 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 4: could rally the Americans to join the effort. I mean, 546 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 4: that's that's how these that's how these bastards think. 547 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: So where does America faul on all this? Well, President 548 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 1: Wilson urged caution, he's still very reluctant to drag the 549 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: US into the war. Of course, Former President Theodore Roosevelt 550 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: is like, give him hell. He wants to just dive 551 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: right in dolphin. 552 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's like, he's super He's writing a Great White 553 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 3: Shark on the way. Just furious. 554 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: Germany defended itself, insisting the Lusitania was carrying weapons, which, 555 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: while technically true, was unprovable at the time, so this 556 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 1: was not received well. Tensions ratcheted even further when Germany 557 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: sank another British passenger ship, the ss Arabic, resulting in 558 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: just a tidal wave of anti German sentiment across the 559 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: US and and of course already in Britain. Germany promised 560 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: more restraint, but in eighteen seventeen, British intelligence intercepted the 561 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: infamous Zimmerman Telegram, which revealed that Germany not only planned 562 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: to resume unrestricted submarine warfare, but that it was also 563 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 1: dangling an alliance with Mexico if the US had the 564 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: audacity to join the fight. So what was in it 565 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: for Mexico, you might ask. Well, Germany said it would 566 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: financially assist Mexico in reclaiming its old territory from the US, 567 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: which included Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. This was a 568 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 1: breaking point. Wilson released this telegram and the American public 569 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: was outraged and they were now firmly in favor of 570 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: entering the war. Wilson asked Congress for a declaration of war, 571 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: and on April sixth, nineteen seventeen, the US joined the 572 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: Allies against the Central Powers. 573 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 4: Incredible, so the history shows that it had it not 574 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 4: been for the sinking of the Lusitania in the Arabic 575 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 4: the US might and we can only say might not 576 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 4: have joined the war. 577 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 3: Is that possible? So it wasn't a Pearl Harbor moment. 578 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 3: It wasn't It wasn't a thing that it was like 579 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 3: here we go, We're definitely in. But it was it 580 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 3: was like a domino, right, and it was something that 581 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 3: started this cascading effect. So then when the Zimmerman Telegram 582 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 3: was intercepted, there was enough tension that it was like, oh, 583 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 3: hell yeah, this is all like we're getting we're diving in. 584 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 2: So if it were not for the Americans, it's not 585 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,479 Speaker 2: clear that the Germans wouldn't have won World were one 586 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 2: for sure. 587 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm curious, like just some bigger picture takeaways. I mean, 588 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: what what this is like my favorite part where we 589 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: just kind of deconstructed a little bit. And what strikes 590 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: me most about the Lusitania is is what a turning 591 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,239 Speaker 1: point it was and the domino effect it precipitated. I mean, 592 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: it was one torpedo, one ship on one afternoon, and 593 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: suddenly public outrage, policy shifts, and eventually America's entry into 594 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: the war. And the thing about dominoes is you don't 595 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: always know which ones are going to keep going and 596 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: keep falling, or which ones are just going to kind 597 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 1: of tip over and stop right. So looking back, it's 598 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: easy to see the chain reaction, but in the moment 599 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: it had to just be so unclear and confusing. Do 600 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: you think we're any better now at spotting which events 601 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: are just noise and which events are true turning points? 602 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 3: We're not. 603 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 2: We're not. 604 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 4: And one of my favorite monologues in a film is 605 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 4: in Charlie Wilson's War, when the late Great Philip Seymour Hoffman, 606 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 4: playing a I think a CIA officer, is trying to 607 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 4: give the Texas congressman a lesson on even though dumu 608 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 4: Jahadeen have successfully beat back the Soviets in Afghanistan, who 609 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 4: knows what the dominoes will fall? And it's this whole 610 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 4: thing about the zen master and the child. The short 611 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 4: version for your listeners is a boy gets a horse, 612 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 4: and everybody in the village is like, oh, that's so wonderful, 613 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 4: and the zen master says, we'll see. And then the 614 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 4: boy falls off the horse or the horse falls on 615 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 4: him and he breaks his leg and it injures him forever, 616 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 4: and everybody in the village says well, that's so horrible, 617 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 4: and the zen Master says, we'll see, and then all 618 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 4: the young men in the in the village are called 619 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,879 Speaker 4: to war, but he can't go because it's broken list 620 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 4: of injury, and everyone's like, isn't that great, And the 621 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 4: ze Master's like, we'll see, well, and that's and that 622 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 4: is everything, Like you could while you were telling talking 623 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 4: about trench warfare, I immediately I always immediately think of 624 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:35,879 Speaker 4: the World War two World War One movies. I've seen 625 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 4: In the remake of All Quiet on the Western Front, 626 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 4: which was done by a German director, writer, et cetera, 627 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 4: I believe they add a scene where the Germans are surrendering, uh, 628 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 4: and the I think the Brits and the French are 629 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 4: being like, really tough. 630 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 3: And this was. 631 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 4: A German way of looking World War One, which is 632 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 4: because of the austerity measures and what you did to 633 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 4: Germany during the Armistice of World War One, world War 634 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 4: two happened. 635 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 2: And that is a very German view of well, not 636 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 2: just German. 637 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 4: I think there are historians who think that the armistice 638 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 4: and the peace of World War One in many ways 639 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 4: set the. 640 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 2: Conditions that created World War Two. 641 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 3: So I don't know. 642 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 4: I mean I was about to say, well, that guy 643 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 4: who smuggled, who ordered the smuggling of munitions into the 644 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 4: Lusitania probably had some really bad months. And then at 645 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 4: the end of it, you know, the Americans come in 646 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 4: because of that domino that fell and saved the way. 647 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 3: It's like a we'll see moment, Yeah, right. 648 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:42,879 Speaker 2: Exactly, we'll see. 649 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 4: But then there's also the we'll see of the of 650 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 4: the victory of World War One is then it could 651 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 4: then causes World War two becauses Hitler's rise to power. 652 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 4: You know, would it have been better in history if 653 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 4: if if Germany had had won World War One? I 654 00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 4: mean maybe then Hitler wouldn't have come to power all 655 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:01,919 Speaker 4: all the horror from there. 656 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 2: So I don't know. 657 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 3: So that's a I love that analysis, Jake. 658 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: It's a very I think, sort of prudent and responsible 659 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: way to look at the way dominoes fall through an 660 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 1: historical lens. 661 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 4: Well, and that's how it happens, as we talked about 662 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:24,240 Speaker 4: with the assassination of arts Duke Ferdinand. But I'm guessing 663 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 4: that whoever made the decision to hide diminutions in the 664 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 4: Lusitania definitely like probably at the end of the day, 665 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:33,720 Speaker 4: like all sorts of war medals. 666 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know that is the you're speaking to the 667 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 1: one constant in all of these snaffoos, which is that 668 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,879 Speaker 1: no one is ever held accountable, correct, and more likely 669 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 1: they are rewarded in some way for the snaffoos. 670 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 2: So, but also, like this guy would have I'm assuming 671 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:54,239 Speaker 2: it's a guy. 672 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 4: Please don't condemn me for my sexism when I suggest 673 00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,879 Speaker 4: that there were no female admirals or whatever at the time. 674 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,359 Speaker 4: But I will say, like, whoever that guy was. Also, 675 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 4: the decision was bad, so it could only have been 676 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 4: made by a man that that person could say like, look, 677 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 4: because of that, we won the war. 678 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,719 Speaker 3: M hm. And also there were a lot of very 679 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:22,879 Speaker 3: successful a passengership munition shipments, you know, apart from the Lusitania, 680 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 3: So they were they were getting lots of sort of 681 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 3: contraband across the ocean. 682 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:29,320 Speaker 2: Don't you think that still happens today? 683 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,280 Speaker 4: Don't you think that our government, not just our government, 684 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 4: but all governments are hiding stuff in Yeah, I mean 685 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 4: I would oh yeah, yeah. 686 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the CIA was fully like fully engaged 687 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: in in cocaine trafficking right in the eighties, Like it was. 688 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: It started out as kind of like, oh, we're trying 689 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: to kind of get inside undercover, and then it was 690 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: just like, oh, but also, we don't mind if you 691 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: profit a little bit on the side, and it's yeah, 692 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 1: there's it's wild. 693 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 2: So the snaff who in this is the decision to 694 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 2: put the munitions in the in the ship. 695 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,920 Speaker 1: You're drilling down on the on the sort of technical 696 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: specificity of our. 697 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:12,320 Speaker 2: I'm not I'm not disagreeing with it. 698 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,360 Speaker 1: I'm just saying that, No, I would say that the 699 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 1: snaff who is the disaster? The snaff who is the 700 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,479 Speaker 1: sinking of the ship, the epic loss of life? 701 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,359 Speaker 4: And uh see that's a human approach. I'm going at 702 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 4: it like a journalist to blame who's responsible? 703 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,799 Speaker 1: But no, But that is that is such a sort 704 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: of exciting part of discovery when you dig into this story, 705 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,360 Speaker 1: is is that the who's to blame just becomes this 706 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:41,799 Speaker 1: very murky web. 707 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 2: Did anybody else have submarines? 708 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, submarines that the Brits had submarines, but the 709 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: the Germans had. We're really pushing the technology forward in 710 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 1: ways that that others just gotten quite caught up to. 711 00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:59,800 Speaker 4: Whoever made that decision, that's who I give the snaffoo 712 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 4: to not that you give awards at the end of 713 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,839 Speaker 4: these but still that's but you should perhaps think about 714 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 4: that for future ref But I mean that that's the decision, 715 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 4: right or or the bread who decided we're going to 716 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 4: start shooting U boats while they're coming up and following 717 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,800 Speaker 4: instructions and surprise laws. 718 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:21,839 Speaker 3: That's where it gets that, That's where it gets real, 719 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 3: real dodgy. Yeah, the rules are for you, guys, they're 720 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:26,839 Speaker 3: not for us. 721 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 4: I feel like I've now very dangerously entered terrain where 722 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:33,960 Speaker 4: and blaming the British for their own ship getting shot 723 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 4: by the Germans, but which I do not mean to do. 724 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 4: And it's obviously the Germans fault and I proved that 725 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:41,800 Speaker 4: with my accents earlier in the episode. 726 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 3: Jake, it's the fog of war, all right, Let's be clear. 727 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 3: This is that gives you a very a whole lot 728 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:48,880 Speaker 3: of leeway here. 729 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 4: I just do think that, like when you are hiding 730 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 4: military material and the material l in a civilian ship, 731 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 4: you are creating an untenable situation for the civilian. I 732 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 4: feel comfortable making that assertion. I don't disagree even if 733 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:07,760 Speaker 4: the Germans are the bad guys. 734 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 3: Tell me just a little bit about this book you have. 735 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 3: Oh great, thank you. It's right behind you. I can 736 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,359 Speaker 3: see it. It's a beautiful cover Race against Terror. 737 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 2: So there it is. 738 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,399 Speaker 4: So it's really just an interesting story. Did I send 739 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 4: you one yet? I'll send you one. If I haven't, 740 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,399 Speaker 4: text me your address and I'll send you one, Okay. 741 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,479 Speaker 4: So it's just this really interesting story that I heard 742 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:32,280 Speaker 4: from a guy about it's the Arab Spring. 743 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 3: To that does not sound legit, by the way, it's 744 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 3: totally true. I mean, from this guy named Louie. I 745 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,279 Speaker 3: admit it a b No, Well, you need to. 746 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:41,400 Speaker 2: Ask me who the guy is and I'll tell you 747 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,399 Speaker 2: a good story about that. But but but so it's 748 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 2: the Arab Spring. 749 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:50,359 Speaker 4: Refugees from Tunisia and Libya are fleeing Africa. They're ending 750 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,719 Speaker 4: at the southern Italian Islands. Berlusconi Commandeer is a cruise 751 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,480 Speaker 4: ship and they start, you know, bringing refugees to the 752 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:01,439 Speaker 4: mainland of Italy and to Europe. And on that cruise ship, 753 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 4: a short African guy from these air approaches a guard 754 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,200 Speaker 4: and says he wants water. The guard notices he has 755 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 4: a bullet hole in his arm or a bullet scar. 756 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:12,600 Speaker 4: He asks him where he got it, and the guy says, well, 757 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:14,839 Speaker 4: I got it fighting Americans in Afghanistan. 758 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:15,760 Speaker 2: I'm with al Qaida. 759 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 4: And the Italian guard they take him to a room, 760 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 4: they hear more about his story. They take him into 761 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 4: custody and they call the Americans and they say, this 762 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 4: guy says, his name is spin Ghoul and he's killed Americans. 763 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:29,880 Speaker 2: Have you heard of him? 764 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 4: And the Americans have heard of him, even if you 765 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:37,359 Speaker 4: and I haven't. And the Italians are like, great, take them, 766 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:38,279 Speaker 4: we don't want him, we. 767 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 1: Can't hold Why did he Why did he identify himself 768 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:42,280 Speaker 1: to the Italians? 769 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 3: Did he just think out of it? 770 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 4: He didn't belong with the riff raff, the refugees. He 771 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:52,920 Speaker 4: had just gotten out of a Libyan prison, remember when 772 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 4: the Libby was just completely falling apart, and Kadafi and 773 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 4: his thug emptied the prisons and they sent like Islamic 774 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,880 Speaker 4: extremists to Europe to recavoc that's what. So he had 775 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 4: been in a prison for a long time, he'd been tortured, 776 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,040 Speaker 4: he wasn't all there. But also he was a very 777 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,040 Speaker 4: proud member of al Qaida. A lot of these guys 778 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,320 Speaker 4: are just very proud of their work. Anyway, the Americans 779 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 4: now have a ticking clock because the Italians are like, 780 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 4: we don't want him, we can't hold him for much 781 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 4: longer than a month or two. Please take him in 782 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 4: the Americans, because it's during the Obama years. They can't 783 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 4: just fly him off to Gitmo and just told him indefinitely. 784 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 4: I'm not saying that's a good thing, but I'm just saying, 785 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,279 Speaker 4: like that's the reality. Obama wants to prosecute all these 786 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 4: guys in criminal courts. The Americans now have a ticking 787 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,280 Speaker 4: clock to prove a case against this Al Qaida operative, 788 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 4: a guy who says he's killed Americans, has tried to 789 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 4: blow up a US embassy and wants to kill as 790 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 4: many Americans as possible. 791 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,359 Speaker 2: So it is this race against terror. They can't. 792 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 4: They have to prove a case against him through sleothing, 793 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:58,200 Speaker 4: finding evidence finding fingerprints, finding witness testimony, et cetera, figuring 794 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:02,879 Speaker 4: out who he killed, et cetera, before the Italians free 795 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:04,440 Speaker 4: him or put him in a refugee camp where he 796 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,400 Speaker 4: can just escape. And that's it's just a true story 797 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,879 Speaker 4: that I happened upon. So anyway, we've talked enough about 798 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:11,880 Speaker 4: the book, and I appreciate it, and I'm going to 799 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 4: send you a copy, but I will tell you that 800 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 4: it's getting good reviews and I think people will. 801 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,799 Speaker 3: Like it excellent. Well, I can't wait, and I really 802 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:18,440 Speaker 3: appreciate that. 803 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 1: Jake, Thank you so much for coming on to Snaffoo's fun. 804 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 2: Can I do this every week? 805 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,600 Speaker 3: Yeah? Hell, yes, let's do it. You could be my 806 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:29,160 Speaker 3: co host. 807 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,839 Speaker 4: This was so interesting because I knew vaguely of the Lusitania, 808 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:34,759 Speaker 4: but now I know much. Now I'm like basically a 809 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:35,480 Speaker 4: world authority. 810 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,799 Speaker 3: Now you can just go and regale your status turner. Yeah. 811 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 1: Free Snapo is a production of iHeart Podcasts and Snaffo Media, 812 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,880 Speaker 1: a partnership between Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company. 813 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 3: Our post production studio is Gilded Audio. Our executive producers 814 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:59,920 Speaker 3: are me Ed Helms, Mike Falbo, Glenn Basner, Andy Kim Whitney, Donaldson, 815 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:04,240 Speaker 3: and Dylan Fagan. This episode was produced by Alyssa Martino 816 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,440 Speaker 3: and Tory Smith. Our video editor is Jared Smith. Technical 817 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 3: direction and engineering from Nick Dooley. Our creative executive is 818 00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,920 Speaker 3: Brett Harris. Logo and branding by Matt Gosson and The 819 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:20,360 Speaker 3: Collected Works. Legal Review from Dan Welsh, Megan Halson and 820 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:24,600 Speaker 3: Caroline Johnson. Special thanks to Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn, Lane Klein, 821 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:29,120 Speaker 3: and everyone at iHeart Podcasts, but especially Will Pearson, Kerrie 822 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:33,000 Speaker 3: Lieberman and Nicki Etoor. While I have you, don't forget 823 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,960 Speaker 3: to pick up a copy of my book, Snaffoo, The 824 00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:37,160 Speaker 3: Definitive Guide. 825 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,719 Speaker 1: To History's Greatest screw Ups. It's available now from any 826 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:46,040 Speaker 1: book retailer. Just go to Snaffoo dashbook dot com. Thanks 827 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 1: for listening, and see you next week.