Speaker 1: Welcome to Creature feature production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host
Speaker 1: of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology,
Speaker 1: and today on this show, Happy Pride Month. Everybody, we
Speaker 1: are talking about all the ways in which animals and
Speaker 1: nature shatter cis heteronormativity. I cannot say that word very good.
Speaker 1: From clownfish to banana Bo's biology and the animal world
Speaker 1: is far more complex than prudes. What have you think
Speaker 1: it is? Joining me today are hosts of the podcast
Speaker 1: A Field Guide to Gay Animals, a podcast exploring queerness
Speaker 1: in the natural world.
Speaker 2: Laanen Ollen Welcome, Hello, Yes, Happy Pride Mom.
Speaker 3: Hi, thanks for having us.
Speaker 1: I am super excited about this because I actually get
Speaker 1: so many listener questions about this, and I've been wanting
Speaker 1: to do a whole show just kind of diving into
Speaker 1: this on both a philosophical level and sort of sociological
Speaker 1: level on the human side, and then the biology of
Speaker 1: it on the animal side, and then how that all
Speaker 1: does not have a strict boundary, so to.
Speaker 2: Speak, absolutely absolutely so what And that's something that we
Speaker 2: are also aiming to accomplish with the podcast, especially when
Speaker 2: talking to scientists who are observing the biology of it,
Speaker 2: but and are threading that needle but then not taking
Speaker 2: it a step farther to figure out, like what's the
Speaker 2: interpretation of this, what is sort of the reflective value
Speaker 2: of this, Like what do we make of this? What
Speaker 2: does this mean for our lives?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely, you can do a study and you know
Speaker 1: it's I mean, this is all exactly what I want
Speaker 1: to talk about. Because you hear a lot in sort
Speaker 1: of I guess, like in polarizing arguments like this is
Speaker 1: what science says, or science says this is right or
Speaker 1: this is wrong. It's to me saying well science says this,
Speaker 1: it's like, well, science doesn't say anything. Science is in
Speaker 1: terms of like morality, in terms of social goods. Necessarily,
Speaker 1: science is an interpretation of observable factors and then you know,
Speaker 1: you take those and you try to use a scientific
Speaker 1: method to have a picture emerged from that, and so
Speaker 1: that's what science is. We're the ones who get to
Speaker 1: say what that means. Right. It always feels a little
Speaker 1: bit like when you kind of and of course I'm
Speaker 1: obviously a huge proponent of the scientific method, but if
Speaker 1: someone just says, like well science says, there's like two
Speaker 1: sexes and that's it. It's like, well, it sounds kind
Speaker 1: of like, first of all, you haven't been exploring this
Speaker 1: issue very deeply, and second of all that you're hiding
Speaker 1: behind this concept of science for your own belief, for
Speaker 1: your own bias. And yeah, I really like to talk
Speaker 1: about it because I think it is. It's really interesting,
Speaker 1: and it's also like I think that it goes a
Speaker 1: lot deeper than sort of just saying like I remember
Speaker 1: there being this argument a lot where it's like, well, hey,
Speaker 1: there's gay penguins, right, so it's okay. It's like, well
Speaker 1: that's true, but also if there weren't gay penguins, it's
Speaker 1: still fine, right, Like why do we need to like
Speaker 1: follow the penguins example, mm hmmm hmm.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I mean this is something that came up
Speaker 3: a lot. It's exactly what you're talking about. Where we
Speaker 3: were looking at and talking to, you know, all different
Speaker 3: types of people that we interviewed, How these observations were
Speaker 3: treated over time, Like how things that were seen in
Speaker 3: the wild or animals held in captivity, what then was
Speaker 3: done with those findings? You know, It's like that's one
Speaker 3: thing to see something and observe something and then how
Speaker 3: is that perceived and what's done with that information? And
Speaker 3: that's something that we really tracked in the series.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because to your point, science is a practice, and
Speaker 2: therefore it does reflect the worldview of the practitioners. And
Speaker 2: one thing we learned is that when we have the
Speaker 2: benefit of distance, either through time or through the simple
Speaker 2: fact that we are podcasters and not the scientists, we
Speaker 2: have the ability to more clearly witness the way that's
Speaker 2: sort of like the miasma morality is actually impacting people.
Speaker 2: I don't think that there is actually a way that
Speaker 2: we can step completely outside of our human brain and
Speaker 2: outside of our human context like social context, historical context
Speaker 2: to talk about these animal behaviors, and so it often
Speaker 2: gets worked into some sort of social political project at often.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I mean there is there is no objective
Speaker 1: point of view. The closest you can get is to
Speaker 1: sort of be I guess consistent in terms of scientific rigor, right,
Speaker 1: And so I think that you know that that that
Speaker 1: is really really true that like science and our own
Speaker 1: beliefs in sociology form a feedback loop, right, Like there's
Speaker 1: so much like a basic example is so many studies
Speaker 1: done on rats, but never done on female rats because
Speaker 1: it's harder to do it on female rats because they
Speaker 1: have a menstrual cycle. But then, hey, you know half
Speaker 1: of the population might also have that too, maybe, so
Speaker 1: it's it is, it is complicated, and so I think
Speaker 1: that given that, you know, I also think that like
Speaker 1: when there's an appeal to science or an appeal to
Speaker 1: nature in terms of morality, I get very I think
Speaker 1: that's a very sort of true territory to get into,
Speaker 1: because if you're appealing to nature, right, like this is
Speaker 1: natural or this isn't natural? Well, I mean nature is
Speaker 1: not necessarily a great moral guide. Animals frequently eat their
Speaker 1: own young, eat their parents, eat their partners. You know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of stuff that happens in nature that
Speaker 1: I would not necessarily recommend to people. So I think
Speaker 1: sometimes this idea of like, well we need to appeal
Speaker 1: to nature, what is you know, what is natural in
Speaker 1: order to determine what our society should look like? Is
Speaker 1: it's just a non starter for me. I mean, we
Speaker 1: wear underwear and glasses. What what is anyone talking about?
Speaker 1: So you know, I think I mean, not me, but
Speaker 1: to each their own, to each their own. Sometimes I
Speaker 1: get them mixed up, and I think it's an easy
Speaker 1: mistake to make. But O, there's not so much.
Speaker 2: You know it. Yes, yes, there are definitely like risks
Speaker 2: and rewards to looking for analogues among the natural world.
Speaker 2: We're looking to science to sort of like justify and
Speaker 2: the behavior to your point, like human species has its
Speaker 2: own code of ethics, but that code of ethics isn't
Speaker 2: universal to all of us, right, It probably differs between
Speaker 2: the three of us right now, And certainly when you expand.
Speaker 1: Up is it the underwear exactly?
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly exactly, and we don't all abide by it,
Speaker 2: and you know, entirely all of the time. I think
Speaker 2: that it's beautiful to look for forms of reflection and
Speaker 2: to help us understand that we are also mammals. Yes,
Speaker 2: and there are going to be more similarities than we
Speaker 2: have given ourselves the benefit of observing and witnessing when
Speaker 2: we start looking for it and start asking those questions.
Speaker 2: There's been such an abundance of silencing or what we
Speaker 2: like to say, closeting of queer animals and queer animal
Speaker 2: behavior over time. And since we're you know, not scientists,
Speaker 2: we're podcasters, we're curious people. We get to come at
Speaker 2: it a little bit more enthusiastically from the other side
Speaker 2: and be like, let's really highlight and celebrate these things
Speaker 2: that have been deemed marginal or misclassified or a moral
Speaker 2: or degenerate, you know, that pathologization that continues to happen.
Speaker 2: We get to be like, no, we're going to celebrate
Speaker 2: that because we're going to see that there is a
Speaker 2: diversity in nature, which doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going
Speaker 2: to have to go out and start, you know, behaving
Speaker 2: exactly like a bonobo, right, I mean that would be cool.
Speaker 2: We're going to talk about before eating.
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about bonobos and how chill they are,
Speaker 1: but sure.
Speaker 3: And ways they stay chill, right exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: I think that there are things to learn, you know,
Speaker 2: exactly humans. Humans have always looked to nature for metaphor,
Speaker 2: whether it's like poetic yes metaphor philosophical metaphor spiritual metaphor.
Speaker 2: And I like, you want to be guided by rigorous,
Speaker 2: data driven scientific inquiry and mythology. I'm sorry methodology, but
Speaker 2: I'm also influenced by nature mythology and wonder and poetry exactly,
Speaker 2: and these sort of like intangible meaning making that we
Speaker 2: can we have the gift of being able to do
Speaker 2: as human animals.
Speaker 1: I think that's extremely well put, because I mean that's
Speaker 1: when I talk about animal behavior on the show. I
Speaker 1: think that the thing that is so lovely to me
Speaker 1: is to find something in an animal that is really
Speaker 1: hard to relate to, like a jumping spider, and then
Speaker 1: you discover something about them where it's like they might dream,
Speaker 1: Like we see them have random eye movement, and so
Speaker 1: these little jumping spiders might be sitting there in their
Speaker 1: little webs having dreams, little spider dreams, and it's just
Speaker 1: it makes me feel so I don't know, connected, and
Speaker 1: you know this this beauty and nature of like sometimes
Speaker 1: we underestimate animals in terms of their depth, and obviously
Speaker 1: sometimes we might over anthropomorphize them, but we can also
Speaker 1: like see them as so alien to us, and sometimes
Speaker 1: they're not. Sometimes there are these shared things, and so
Speaker 1: I think that looking for those things in terms of sex,
Speaker 1: sexuality and even gender, which is another thing that's like
Speaker 1: very complicated when it comes to animals, right, but it
Speaker 1: is something where we can both do it too much
Speaker 1: but also too little. Like in terms of gender, I
Speaker 1: would say, like with animals. A lot of animals probably
Speaker 1: don't have a concept of gender. Most I would say
Speaker 1: probably do not if we're going by the sort of
Speaker 1: biomass like ants, I kind of don't think they do.
Speaker 1: But there may be some animals that do have a
Speaker 1: concept of gender. And I would guess that the animals
Speaker 1: who are highly social and have very sort of distinctive
Speaker 1: social roles may actually have a concept of gender. It's
Speaker 1: just something that is extremely difficult to quantify. But just
Speaker 1: because you can't quantify it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Speaker 1: It just means we haven't learned that animals language, how
Speaker 1: they communicated, or how they express gender, or what it
Speaker 1: means to them, But it could still be there. And
Speaker 1: so you know, basically this is just all to say
Speaker 1: that biology and behavior, both in humans and animals is super,
Speaker 1: super complex and interwoven. I think that, like.
Speaker 3: It.
Speaker 1: Is amazing to see these various examples, but it's also
Speaker 1: good to be careful about, you know, recognizing that there
Speaker 1: are definitely both differences in terms of huge human behaviors
Speaker 1: and human ethics and what we want in our society
Speaker 1: in terms of like just I mean, for me at least,
Speaker 1: it's like the idea of all of this kind of
Speaker 1: investigation about like, well, what causes you know, lgbt qeness
Speaker 1: and you know it does it happen in nature? It's
Speaker 1: like that should it should be more of just an
Speaker 1: appreciation right of nature and of humanity and less about
Speaker 1: some kind of like weird investigation in terms of like
Speaker 1: like is this okay? It's like yes, I mean because
Speaker 1: it's fine, like chill out, and less of like sort
Speaker 1: of this idea of we're looking to animals to kind
Speaker 1: of guide us, and more we're looking to animals because
Speaker 1: it's freaking cool.
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, it is freaking cool. Yeah, it is freaking cool. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I wish we weren't in a position where we
Speaker 2: had to politically argue for the value of queerness and
Speaker 2: human animal and then like use the biopolitics of nature.
Speaker 2: But that but that's where we are. That's where we are.
Speaker 2: You know, we have family add crimes against Nature statutes,
Speaker 2: and I think that's a symptom of like we as
Speaker 2: human animals have forgotten that we are animals and like
Speaker 2: what we do is going to be unique and different
Speaker 2: and also like intricately connected to all of other things,
Speaker 2: and like we should just embrace all of that diversity
Speaker 2: within ourselves and within the larger animal queendom, as we
Speaker 2: like to say.
Speaker 3: And it's also i think in reaction to what has
Speaker 3: still been largely the response to seeing this in nature
Speaker 3: by scientists, which is what we heard over and over
Speaker 3: again in our conversations, which is seeing you know, two
Speaker 3: male let's say, bonobos, even though that's a common example,
Speaker 3: or or dolphins another common example, or you know, beatles
Speaker 3: maybe a less common example, having sex and then saying
Speaker 3: we have no idea why this is happening, instead of
Speaker 3: just saying, oh, look, this is happening, because of course
Speaker 3: it's happening. Yeah, And like that's that very reaction being
Speaker 3: this need for us to still kind of feel compelled to,
Speaker 3: you know, come to this defense or respond this way.
Speaker 3: That that's been the response. The response has been what's
Speaker 3: going on here? This is this is so bizarre.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there must.
Speaker 1: Be some strange reason.
Speaker 3: There must be some reason why they're doing this, versus
Speaker 3: they're doing this because they want.
Speaker 2: To, you know, yeah, which is something we rarely like
Speaker 2: give two animals. You talked about like we don't know
Speaker 2: how to quantify the perspective of gender and animals, we
Speaker 2: also have a really difficult understanding of pleasure. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: therefore we often deny animals pleasure. And so we've seen
Speaker 2: discourse and record where they're like, these two animals are
Speaker 2: doing this thing, and like there must be some reason,
Speaker 2: maybe it's social, maybe it's biological, genetic something, and then
Speaker 2: it's like, could be pleasure. And that's like an example
Speaker 2: of that is the female Japanese macaque. They were like,
Speaker 2: why do these ladies keep having sex? We're gonna do
Speaker 2: like rigorous study to figure out, like there's got to
Speaker 2: be a reason.
Speaker 1: Which coincidentally is how scientists in the eighteen hundreds talked
Speaker 1: about actual human women.
Speaker 2: Right exactly right, And some of the earliest like scientists
Speaker 2: who are like, we're gonna study, you know, sexual and
Speaker 2: gender deviants among humans were also then simultaneously doing it
Speaker 2: among animals because they were like already drawing these parallels
Speaker 2: and being like there is something else strange and aberrant
Speaker 2: going on, and it's really hard. It took us human
Speaker 2: animals a long time to get to the point where
Speaker 2: it's like, well, pleasure is a big factor of that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like yes, they're social factors, always are, but we can
Speaker 2: do it because we want to.
Speaker 4: This is also animals.
Speaker 1: And this is actually something we talk about a lot
Speaker 1: on the show, where it's like sometimes animals just like
Speaker 1: to have fun. You can sing the song in your head.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do it because I can't sing
Speaker 1: and I don't own the rights to that song. But
Speaker 1: animals do like to have fun. Like sometimes crows will
Speaker 1: just seem to play around like snowboard for no reason.
Speaker 1: Speaking of pleasure bats, I've seen that.
Speaker 2: The ones that are just like they jump off and
Speaker 2: they just yeah, they just.
Speaker 1: Like rise exactly, or they'll jump off.
Speaker 2: Feel feels so good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And sometimes they you know, they'll like there's a
Speaker 1: lot of playful animal behavior that the explanation is probably
Speaker 1: just I don't know, I think they just are having
Speaker 1: a cool time.
Speaker 2: It's like like that blurs into sexual behavior as well.
Speaker 2: Some of it is like so playful, but often scientists,
Speaker 2: especially if it's male male sexual behavior, they're like, it's
Speaker 2: got to be aggressive. This has to be a dominant despa,
Speaker 2: which is just like, yeah, possible way that these alphas
Speaker 2: are having joy, Like that's just not that's not the
Speaker 2: story we've written.
Speaker 1: Can we can we finally make space for alpha joy, Like,
Speaker 1: is this going to happen? No, I think that's I
Speaker 1: think that's exactly right. We're gonna take a quick break
Speaker 1: and then we are gonna bust up the myth of
Speaker 1: nature being some kind of Noah's arc of of just
Speaker 1: perfect heteronormativity. So we will be right back. All right,
Speaker 1: So we are back, And you know, I think that
Speaker 1: something that's interesting is if you ask people about like,
Speaker 1: are there gay animals? You know, I think people will say, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I've I've heard of the penguins. The penguins
Speaker 1: are such a famous example. And the reason I think
Speaker 1: that penguins are so notable is that there's a bunch
Speaker 1: of them in captivity and they form monoga as pair bonds,
Speaker 1: so we can actually observe it really well. But when
Speaker 1: you look into it, it's when I use this language
Speaker 1: is going to sound very awkward and like weird, weird
Speaker 1: sort of science lingle like same sex behavior, which sounds
Speaker 1: like I'm doing some kind of homophobic psa like in
Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties. But this is you know what it's.
Speaker 1: This is what it's called in the literature with regards
Speaker 1: to animals. But yeah, same sex behavior has been observed
Speaker 1: in over one thy five hundred species, uh, from invertebrates, nematodes, fish, amphibians, reptiles,
Speaker 1: bird mammals. Honestly, my opinion is that any animal that
Speaker 1: sexually reproduces, there's going to be same sex behavior. Like
Speaker 1: I don't I would be much more shocked if you
Speaker 1: didn't find a species in which this were the case. Uh.
Speaker 1: So that's that's my opinion. And so you know, uh,
Speaker 1: this is it's such a thing and kind of like
Speaker 1: what you're saying earlier, where it's like it is so
Speaker 1: prevalent that researchers are like, well, is there an evolutionary
Speaker 1: advantage to this? And you know, it's something where I
Speaker 1: think it's really important to understand that when we talk
Speaker 1: about evolutionary advantage, it sounds really good, like this thing
Speaker 1: where it's like we should be looking for, like we
Speaker 1: should be striving for evolutionary advantages because that's the good thing.
Speaker 1: It's like evolution doesn't care about our happiness, it really doesn't.
Speaker 1: It would be fine if we lived like five days
Speaker 1: of misery and then explode into a bunch of eggs
Speaker 1: that make a bunch of more miserable offspring, Like evolution
Speaker 1: wouldn't care about that, that it would just the most
Speaker 1: like efficient right exactly, And yet that's not the world
Speaker 1: that we live in.
Speaker 2: No, we don't want you don't.
Speaker 1: Want, yeah, exactly, like you don't want. Like there's a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff in evolution that is messed up that
Speaker 1: we would not want to endure just to be evolutionarily
Speaker 1: advantageous like we that's kind of what's cool when you
Speaker 1: are a more social, chill species like humans. There are
Speaker 1: other species too, who I think have this kind of
Speaker 1: autonomy where you get to be like, actually, I kind
Speaker 1: of want to enjoy life like that's nice. So but
Speaker 1: still like it is extremely prevalent to the point where
Speaker 1: it's like when they're when you're asked like, well, are
Speaker 1: there are there gay animals, it's like, well, are there
Speaker 1: not any species that aren't don't have gay animals? I
Speaker 1: don't think so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yea yeah. I mean I think we should circle
Speaker 2: back and like talk about those penguins a little bit,
Speaker 2: because there's so much to sort of unpack there about
Speaker 2: the mythology like mythology of penguins. What we know, what
Speaker 2: we don't know, the history of the story of gay penguins, yes,
Speaker 2: or the history of the story of the monogamous penguins.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean there are multiple penguin species, right, and
Speaker 1: they all have their own behaviors, and they are it's
Speaker 1: pretty common among seabirds to be monogamous at least for
Speaker 1: one breeding.
Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah. That's the thing about the that I like
Speaker 2: to call it the monogamouth is that often what we're
Speaker 2: seeing is not like lifelong monogamy, but seasonal pair bonding. Right,
Speaker 2: And recently there have been genetic studies of the DNA
Speaker 2: of like offspring that actually have revealed that even within
Speaker 2: pair bonded penguins, sometimes the offspring, the chicks are not
Speaker 2: genetically linked to the pair bonded father.
Speaker 1: This isn't but.
Speaker 2: We're just but we're still raised because there's such a
Speaker 2: there's so much going on. Yeah, the penguin environments that
Speaker 2: often eggs are being swapped, one of the two will
Speaker 2: not return. And so even if there is an advantage
Speaker 2: to being bonded and to cope parenting, which I think
Speaker 2: is really what we're talking about here, like the advantage
Speaker 2: of co parenting, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are
Speaker 2: solely raising their own genetic offspring, and there's also female
Speaker 2: female pair bonds happening among penguins, male male pair bonds,
Speaker 2: and so much more, so much more.
Speaker 1: Penguin Jerry Springer is absolute chaos. It's just a sea
Speaker 1: of black and white angry fluff.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, but that's something that Owen and I love
Speaker 3: to say, which is that penguins just have like amazing
Speaker 3: pr Like they have an incredible pr team because they
Speaker 3: have this like palatable for some reason, some of which
Speaker 3: we're saying here, they have this like palatable, you know,
Speaker 3: gay story that people can digest and can kind of
Speaker 3: fold into their version of something that like is palatable
Speaker 3: in human society.
Speaker 1: Right, you know, it's gay penguins who got married before
Speaker 1: having sex and adopted an egg together legally and raising.
Speaker 2: The egg right respectability.
Speaker 1: Very respectable penguins.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I mean, which is interesting because then you
Speaker 2: see like Roy and Silo, the famous gay penguins at
Speaker 2: the Central Park Zoo, which is a place that Lene
Speaker 2: and I visited. They're no longer there, but their story
Speaker 2: became a center point for both the Christian right the
Speaker 2: focus on the family, as well as the marriage equality
Speaker 2: movement because both were, like we can project this idea
Speaker 2: of family values on these penguins. Meanwhile, the penguins are
Speaker 2: just like doing whatever and are ultimately bisexual and are
Speaker 2: going to be having all kinds of different sex. And yeah,
Speaker 2: when we have too rigid of an idea of how
Speaker 2: we want to relate to interpret and define any animal behavior,
Speaker 2: of course it's going to come back at us and
Speaker 2: be like difficult. But if we start looking at like, oh,
Speaker 2: all of these things are way more complex than we
Speaker 2: afford them to be, then it becomes really beautiful, and
Speaker 2: then we give ourselves permission to be more complex.
Speaker 1: Also, have you looked in a penguin's mouth. Those guys
Speaker 1: are little freaks, they are. It is a sarlac pit
Speaker 1: in there. And don't tell me they do not ever
Speaker 1: use that for sexual purposes.
Speaker 2: I mean masturbation. Yes, when sexual solicitation all sorts of things,
Speaker 2: all sorts of things that you don't see represented in
Speaker 2: March of the Penguin.
Speaker 3: Right, it is not PC. It is not a PC situation.
Speaker 1: No, And I mean I think this is this is
Speaker 1: the whole kind of thing with like I remember so much,
Speaker 1: this idea of like where it felt like there was
Speaker 1: this attempt to make, you know, especially when it was
Speaker 1: like in the fight back against homophobia, it was like,
Speaker 1: but look at the cute penguins, they're also gay, And
Speaker 1: it's like, on one level, I get that, right, but
Speaker 1: on the other I think it's like short sighted because
Speaker 1: you know, first while we don't need penguins to tell
Speaker 1: us what to do, they're like a foot tall at most, Like,
Speaker 1: why is the penguin telling me what to do what's
Speaker 1: right or what's not right? But also but also it's
Speaker 1: just like you said, it's a reduction of the complexity
Speaker 1: of it. And it's also like we should be cool
Speaker 1: with each other other humans in terms of our identities
Speaker 1: and in terms of you know, our sexuality, not because
Speaker 1: you know, we see penguins doing it too, but because
Speaker 1: we should have the emotional intelligence to be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: these people are doing something that they're okay, look they're
Speaker 1: happy and cool, great, chill out. I don't know, like
Speaker 1: maybe we should just like chill out about each other.
Speaker 1: And so by doing this kind of like projecting on them,
Speaker 1: like well, but they're the penguins are getting married and
Speaker 1: you know, saying penguin vows to each other about giving
Speaker 1: them each other fish for the rest of their life
Speaker 1: and sickness and health. Well, I mean, but they're Noture's
Speaker 1: more complex than that. Uh. And you know, I'm joking,
Speaker 1: jokingly calling them little freaks, but the idea of something
Speaker 1: being weird, you're affectionately calling them little affectionately. But again,
Speaker 1: like for the penguins, it's not taboo. And it's also
Speaker 1: like in terms of penguins, like you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: kind of funny because I think at first researchers would
Speaker 1: try to kind of explain away. It's like, oh, they
Speaker 1: just they're they're confused and they see this penguin and
Speaker 1: they think that's a female penguin. They get confused and
Speaker 1: they have sex. It's like no, they're like taking turns
Speaker 1: and there's like they're engaging in group gay sex where
Speaker 1: they're taking turns. I think they like it. I think
Speaker 1: they're having fun.
Speaker 2: Like strategy, you see virtuosity, you see all of these
Speaker 2: things that would indicate among many species that this is
Speaker 2: not the product of the funnel men. No, not no,
Speaker 2: just sort of like whoopsie, Daisy, your way into participating
Speaker 2: in like multiple origin.
Speaker 1: He slipped down the.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that you know, like that is sort
Speaker 2: of tied into like gay panic. Also, I don't want
Speaker 2: to undervalue like how meaningful it can be to be
Speaker 2: affirmed by seeing something in nature. It is a sad
Speaker 2: reality of our human animal circumstance that we as where
Speaker 2: people have been told so many times that we are aberrant,
Speaker 2: that we are not part of the design, that evolution
Speaker 2: is something that exists that we don't follow, that we
Speaker 2: can't participate in it, and therefore, like nature is not
Speaker 2: designed for us. And so I understand and in fact
Speaker 2: him called by that impulse to see myself reflected in nature.
Speaker 2: And that's you know, in large part why we're late
Speaker 2: and I are making this podcast because we both do
Speaker 2: we appreciate the value of that. But then it's like
Speaker 2: on the flip side, how do we how do we
Speaker 2: get move move past that? How do we like create
Speaker 2: a space where we can move past that, we where
Speaker 2: we no longer need to be making these like arguments
Speaker 2: for our humanity by holding all animals right, But that
Speaker 2: would be wonderful.
Speaker 1: Nice if you didn't have to spend so much time
Speaker 1: to justifying your existence right.
Speaker 2: Right, and we could just be pronghorned sheep, you know,
Speaker 2: home home, Homo on the range just like doing their
Speaker 2: thing right. And because they're not, they're not arguing about it.
Speaker 2: It's the scientists who are observing them who are, like,
Speaker 2: what will happen if people know they're queer? They'll project
Speaker 2: stigma and shame on these animals and therefore not care
Speaker 2: about these animals and like that is because that's what
Speaker 2: we do to each other. Yeah, and so let's try
Speaker 2: to not do that to animals.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And that's and that's like a line that we really
Speaker 3: are trying to tone the series too, which is not
Speaker 3: have the whole thing be like see like they're just
Speaker 3: like it's like see, but that that that it's really
Speaker 3: it really is this back and forth of like the
Speaker 3: beauty of being able to see like ourselves in them.
Speaker 3: What can we learn from you know, that kinship and
Speaker 3: what what what kind of beauty can be like uh
Speaker 3: like elicited from that? And also the fact that like
Speaker 3: that's not what this is all about. You know, there's
Speaker 3: not some sort of there's not some sort of agenda
Speaker 3: in that.
Speaker 1: Ye, it's also really cool. It's just like can we
Speaker 1: tell it's I get frustrated so much, especially when I
Speaker 1: mean on Twitter, which I guess I'm doing this to myself.
Speaker 1: But I see people like oversimplifying biology or it's like, oh, biology,
Speaker 1: so there's like two sexes and it's like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: biology is way more cool than that, it's way more interesting.
Speaker 1: You're painting such a boring picture of biology. It's like, yes,
Speaker 1: I obviously care very much about the ridiculous sort of
Speaker 1: culture war bs that you're espousing, but all so secondly,
Speaker 1: I'm offended on behalf of natural science because it's like
Speaker 1: so cool and there's so many interesting things, and when
Speaker 1: you project this kind of like rigid you know, I
Speaker 1: guess philosophy onto nature, then you miss so much depth
Speaker 1: and rich to the natural world in terms of animal behavior.
Speaker 1: And it's you know, that is also really terrible, like
Speaker 1: you're making things more boring. Why are you doing that?
Speaker 2: Right? A science education could be so incredible, And I
Speaker 2: think a lot of why we get into this mess
Speaker 2: it's not because the science isn't happening, because like you say,
Speaker 2: there is a lot of beautifully nuanced science occurring, but
Speaker 2: it's how it's being taught. And I think that like,
Speaker 2: once it filters down into how we as like late
Speaker 2: people are interacting with it, then it becomes really reduced
Speaker 2: so that you know, we can understand it, and then
Speaker 2: it ends up falling into these, like you said, Noah's
Speaker 2: ark narratives that there is some sort of two by
Speaker 2: two binary and that's like the easiest, simplest way, when
Speaker 2: in fact, when you start scratching at the surface, you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: there's all kinds of studies talking about all kinds of
Speaker 2: species that experience sex, gender behavior, pair bonding, family structures,
Speaker 2: social structures in like an impressive amount of way, right,
Speaker 2: And there's also so much that we can be that
Speaker 2: we don't understand, Like you were talking about the about
Speaker 2: the spiders and like they're incredible capacities to do things
Speaker 2: that we can't do. I think there's so much to
Speaker 2: recognizing the differences that's that's a practice of embracing difference
Speaker 2: that I think like we as humans really need when
Speaker 2: we start looking at animals and being like, a, there
Speaker 2: are similarities, that's cool, but be there's remarkable differences and
Speaker 2: I want to celebrate that, and I want to do
Speaker 2: that to my other like human animals, and want to
Speaker 2: do that to all other animals as well. Exactly bring
Speaker 2: that in to not be like I can only talk
Speaker 2: about animals if they fit some sort of you know,
Speaker 2: narrative that is convenient or useful, often convenient and useful
Speaker 2: for like a reprocentric ideology right right, or a heteronormative ideology.
Speaker 3: And then also what happens a lot, which we talk
Speaker 3: to people about, is that like scientists will not want
Speaker 3: to not know. There isn't that space for kind of
Speaker 3: wonder and awe and the kind of space in between
Speaker 3: of not knowing. So then they fill in the gaps
Speaker 3: with kind of their own biases, which is what creates
Speaker 3: these assumptions and putting into binaries, putting into these societal
Speaker 3: kind of you know, these these things of saying, well,
Speaker 3: this animal is like X, Y, and Z, which only
Speaker 3: happens because like we don't actually know. But then they're saying, well,
Speaker 3: I think I know, and it's based off my own
Speaker 3: assumptions and my own biases, And that's what ends up happening,
Speaker 3: like with all of these things where a real answer
Speaker 3: is we don't know, and there's just a lot of
Speaker 3: discomfort being able to say that in science.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it doesn't publish published. Well, I already I've
Speaker 1: told this joke or a joke before about like where
Speaker 1: in science, like you never published no results. So but
Speaker 1: you have to publish. Yeah, you have to publish.
Speaker 2: You have to Yeah, you.
Speaker 1: Have to publish something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and ideally you're publishing something that will result in
Speaker 2: more funding to continue to research and to continue to publish.
Speaker 2: And so if you're going to go out on a
Speaker 2: limb and start publishing your like copious amounts of gay
Speaker 2: animal sex that you're witnessing in you know, among dolphins, like,
Speaker 2: that's a risk.
Speaker 1: Yeahs so you want yeah, and so you want like
Speaker 1: a result, also a result that's like interesting and or
Speaker 1: respectable because there are so many researchers I think who
Speaker 1: have the same that same idea of like I think
Speaker 1: they might just be having fun, and I think that
Speaker 1: they might be it's deeper than this. But then it
Speaker 1: is really hard for these kinds of like that more
Speaker 1: I guess nuanced discussion to bubble to the surface. It's
Speaker 1: a lot easier for a headline to hit the papers
Speaker 1: where it's like gay gene found in fruit flies rather
Speaker 1: than fruit flies seem to really enjoy bisexual congo lines. Yes,
Speaker 1: you know, so, I think it's it is. It is
Speaker 1: a shame but we are. We did mention earlier Bonobos,
Speaker 1: which I do want to talk about because I think
Speaker 1: they are sort of I mean, correct me if I'm wrong,
Speaker 1: but I feel like they are kind of like the
Speaker 1: poster ape for being chill and like hippies, and which
Speaker 1: is honestly well deserved. But in a way I think
Speaker 1: that I don't know, I think it's I really appreciate them,
Speaker 1: and I think it's a really really interesting example of
Speaker 1: how like this this inter play between like, oh, is
Speaker 1: this behavior advantageous or is this behavior for fun? And
Speaker 1: sometimes the answer to that is like yes, like yeah,
Speaker 1: both yes and yeah, and so yeah. Bonobos are great
Speaker 1: ape native to Congolese forests. They're very closely related to us.
Speaker 1: They're you know, our cousins. They are also very closely
Speaker 1: related to chimpanzees. But they they look a little bit
Speaker 1: like a chimpanzee, but just kind of like squeeze it
Speaker 1: in a little bit. They're less Yeah, they're a little smaller,
Speaker 1: they're more slender, they're not they're not as buff, and
Speaker 1: they are generally less aggressive. They have a higher proportion
Speaker 1: of peaceful interactions within their troop and with other troops,
Speaker 1: with other groups and they are also pretty equitable when
Speaker 1: it comes to sex, meaning like male and female banobos
Speaker 1: kind of have pretty equal standing in society, in their society,
Speaker 1: and I think, like, you know, that's a whole other
Speaker 1: thing too, like in terms of talking about like like
Speaker 1: gender equality and anarchical yeah versus patriarchal society, and it
Speaker 1: can be really complicated. Like I think people have this
Speaker 1: idea of lions where it's like you have the lion,
Speaker 1: the male line, who's like the king than all the
Speaker 1: females who are his like subordinate harem, and it's like
Speaker 1: that's not really actually the case, Like the females kind
Speaker 1: of form a central core to lion society and the
Speaker 1: males come and go and yeah, the male right exactly so,
Speaker 1: and also like the idea that male elephants just are
Speaker 1: aimless drifters who just come in and mate and don't
Speaker 1: actually participate in society, and it's like no, they also
Speaker 1: have a complex sort of social life as well. So
Speaker 1: it's just yeah, so things can be a lot more complex,
Speaker 1: but in general, bonobos are more uh their roles, at
Speaker 1: least like in terms of like whether they are you know,
Speaker 1: the hierarchy. They don't have as much of a hierarchy
Speaker 1: compared to say, chimpanzees, and they have a lot of
Speaker 1: gay sex like constantly all the time, males and females,
Speaker 1: especially females apparently, but males as well. And they the
Speaker 1: idea that this is sort of I'm gonna tell you
Speaker 1: guys sort of the like scientific explanation of it, and
Speaker 1: then we can just kind of talk about I don't
Speaker 1: know what we think, which is like that it is
Speaker 1: often done to reaffirm these like social bonds to ease
Speaker 1: tensions and reinforce cooperation. Seems to happen more in times
Speaker 1: of high competition, and the idea is that this is
Speaker 1: because they are trying to kind of reinforce this cooperation,
Speaker 1: like okay, everybody, everyone's stressed out, let's have sex and
Speaker 1: everyone can just chill out a little more. And so
Speaker 1: the idea is that it is this kind of socially
Speaker 1: advantageous thing because it just calms everyone down and reaffirms
Speaker 1: these like strong bonds between females and also between males,
Speaker 1: and then also between females and males. So it's you
Speaker 1: know which, But I want to hear kind of what
Speaker 1: you got, like what your interpretation of both like the
Speaker 1: behavior and then also the interpretation of the behavior.
Speaker 2: M M hmmm, Yeah, I mean they beautifully have sex
Speaker 2: for conflict avoidance or conflict reconciliation to mitigate conflict. They
Speaker 2: especially when there is some sort of like aggravating circumstance,
Speaker 2: like a scarcity of food or a potential like meeting
Speaker 2: of two like clans of Bonova, things that could result
Speaker 2: in like adversarial behavior competitive behavior, and that frequently do
Speaker 2: result in that behavior among chimpanzees. Instead the bonobos, well,
Speaker 2: first play, there's like joy, there's play, and there's a
Speaker 2: lot of sex and like a lot of sex. A
Speaker 2: sex act is like it's like a handshake thirteen thirteen seconds. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's like so fast. And they got a lot of
Speaker 2: other bonobos to have sex best, so they're just doing
Speaker 2: it and like that to me is like a really
Speaker 2: beautiful way of, like you said, reinforcing the bonds rather
Speaker 2: than like falling into these more dangerous impulses of like
Speaker 2: aggression and violence. And there's like sure there's scientific reasons
Speaker 2: for that. There's like hormonal changes that happen, there's like
Speaker 2: oxytocin there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they like look at the peat which I love
Speaker 1: this that like it's like, you know what, we gotta
Speaker 1: we gotta watch these binobos wait until they have sex,
Speaker 1: and then wait until they have peep right after sex,
Speaker 1: collect that pee and study it.
Speaker 2: Which I mean, let's also scientists a group of people
Speaker 2: who are probably way more kinky than we're willing to admit.
Speaker 2: You know, I think scientists spend a lot more time
Speaker 2: working with like gay animal p than I do.
Speaker 3: So but this is like the anti alpha you know,
Speaker 3: dominance narrative right here. You know, like if you're looking
Speaker 3: for it, it's like this is literally to like alleviate
Speaker 3: that tension, alleviate that conflict, and to say like, okay,
Speaker 3: things are getting intense, Like what do we do, Like
Speaker 3: we're not trying to get agro, we're not trying to fight.
Speaker 2: Let's have sex.
Speaker 3: And you know, you can see that you can make
Speaker 3: an argument for evolutionary purposes for that for you know,
Speaker 3: survival of the fitness in a different way, or you
Speaker 3: can say that this is how they're keeping their communities thriving.
Speaker 3: And it's really really interesting and it's just another example
Speaker 3: of non reproductive sex, which is a huge thing that
Speaker 3: we explore. Just what are all different ways that you know,
Speaker 3: non human animals are having sex where you know, the
Speaker 3: be all and all purpose is to not you know,
Speaker 3: make babies. And sometimes it's we can't figure it out.
Speaker 3: It must just be because they want to do it,
Speaker 3: and sometimes like in this because it feels good. And
Speaker 3: then sometimes like in this example, there's this other reason
Speaker 3: which is really fascinating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that it's I think that sometimes
Speaker 1: when it comes to animals, we sort of unlike, like,
Speaker 1: what is the difference between like a human doing something
Speaker 1: because it's fun and it feels good or it provokes
Speaker 1: some profound emotion from having sex to looking at a painting, right,
Speaker 1: and an animal doing something like that. And then you
Speaker 1: can say like, well, in human society, museums and sex
Speaker 1: also strengthen our social and make our societies more peaceful
Speaker 1: and more functional, which increases the reproductive success of everybody.
Speaker 1: And so you can say the same thing about Bonobo's
Speaker 1: you can say the same thing about your pet dog
Speaker 1: or cat. Right, So this this distinction between like like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's like over evolutionariizing something that's not a word, but
Speaker 1: I need where it's where. Of course evolution it is
Speaker 1: the thing that is driving so many changes in behaviors,
Speaker 1: and of course it's absolutely a factor in so many
Speaker 1: behaviors and so many things. But also like at a
Speaker 1: certain point, well, this bonobo isn't this other bonobo because
Speaker 1: of fitness. It's because he likes it and he's having
Speaker 1: a good time, and it doesn't in that specific case,
Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily make that bonobo moral less fit. Sometimes
Speaker 1: it can be neutral, sometimes it can be good. Right,
Speaker 1: So it's like, so a lot of these behaviors are
Speaker 1: you know, I think that the fear of over anthropomorphizing
Speaker 1: animals can sometimes result in actually taking away autonomy from them.
Speaker 2: In reductive analysis, Yeah, for sure, I mean. And a
Speaker 2: good example that we discussed in the podcast is greade
Speaker 2: apes masturbating and making sex toys, because this is not
Speaker 2: only non reproductive sex, but it's also like non social.
Speaker 2: It's like simply about figuring out how to stimulate yourself.
Speaker 2: Which doesn't mean that it doesn't have like biological advantages,
Speaker 2: because we do know that like orgasming, like floods of hormones,
Speaker 2: these things can make you feel better emotionally, psychologically, biologically,
Speaker 2: But really it's like it's centered on pleasure, and I think,
Speaker 2: like we are really oh like, we are very distracted
Speaker 2: by the need and the imperative to find an evolutionary
Speaker 2: reason behind everything that we don't allow for the nuances
Speaker 2: and for these other activities that do serve a purpose,
Speaker 2: right that just isn't a reproductive purpose right exactly?
Speaker 1: Which is you know it kind of that makes me
Speaker 1: think of the example you guys mentioned dolphins earlier, and
Speaker 1: that's that's a pretty you know, that's an example of like,
Speaker 1: male bottlenose dolphins will often form these groups of two
Speaker 1: or three unrelated males who use sex to strengthen their
Speaker 1: social bonds, and they will hang out, they'll have sex
Speaker 1: with each other, and they will also have sex with females,
Speaker 1: and it's often described as this. They're basically forming a
Speaker 1: group that is cohesive, cooperative, and resistant to say, like
Speaker 1: another male dolphin that would try to bully them or
Speaker 1: say it might increase their reproductive success with a female
Speaker 1: dolphin because the female is attracted to this group of
Speaker 1: dolphins and also they have a number of them, so
Speaker 1: then if another male comes and tries to like chase
Speaker 1: them away, they can chase that male away because there's
Speaker 1: strength and numbers. But like, you know, we can't really
Speaker 1: get inside of a dolphin's head and know for sure
Speaker 1: what they're thinking, right, Like, So while this may have
Speaker 1: I think it certainly does seem to have some advantages
Speaker 1: for these dolphins, but I think like they also just
Speaker 1: enjoy it, right, Dolphins are really really intelligent. They're really social.
Speaker 1: So like if you can like hang with your buds,
Speaker 1: have some sex, I don't know, I think I think
Speaker 1: they're having a good time, like dolphins are.
Speaker 3: Sometimes, they're definitely having a good time.
Speaker 4: There's no question about that. There's no question of dolphins
Speaker 4: trying to get so much vocalization like they I feel like, yeah,
Speaker 4: there's so many animals that like do the best that
Speaker 4: they can to let us know that they are having
Speaker 4: a good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like they'll so dolphins will try to sometimes like
Speaker 1: gently chew toxic fish and the ideas that they might
Speaker 1: get a little bit of a high from it or
Speaker 1: at least some kind of interesting sensation, and so they're
Speaker 1: just like, well, that's interesting. I'm gonna nibble that. A
Speaker 1: lot of animals eat fermented berries, which you know, we
Speaker 1: could argue like, well, you know, maybe it.
Speaker 2: Has their wax wings.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, they get drunk and we could argue that, like, well,
Speaker 1: it could be accidental. It could be because they like
Speaker 1: you know, it's like has this high density of sort
Speaker 1: of nutritional content because it's fermented. But you know, a
Speaker 1: lot of cases it seems like they're kind of having fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, like the chemistry among mammals, like
Speaker 2: brain chemistry, like neurochemistry is not that divergent, like right,
Speaker 2: we are, and these are things that naturally occur in
Speaker 2: the wild, these plants. So like if humans at some
Speaker 2: point ended up discovering them and eating them, obviously animals
Speaker 2: have been as well. They have like they're very adept
Speaker 2: at identifying like what you can and can't eat and
Speaker 2: what the impacts are. So definitely we're not exceptional when
Speaker 2: it comes to loving sex and drugs. Yeah, like we're
Speaker 2: just not and like singing and all these other like
Speaker 2: indicators of pleasure and culture honestly of society of connections.
Speaker 2: Dolphins are a great example of all of that.
Speaker 1: Just partake in fermented berries responsibly, yes, definitely, don't swim
Speaker 1: and chew on toxic puffer fish.
Speaker 2: Do you know about dolphin goosing? The sex act goosing?
Speaker 1: Okay, no, remind.
Speaker 2: Me so it's when one It particularly occurs among male
Speaker 2: male sexual interactions between bottlenose dolphins. One male will stick
Speaker 2: his beak into the interior like the back genital slit
Speaker 2: of another male and like while in there, because they
Speaker 2: have slits that like a fallas can come out of
Speaker 2: sort of multipurpose slits while in there will like make
Speaker 2: humming vibrating sounds, blow bubbles. But also the part that
Speaker 2: feels strikes me is just incredibly joyous and beautiful. And
Speaker 2: I will admit to a certain amount of jealousy of
Speaker 2: They will push each other through the water, They'll take
Speaker 2: each other on these like excursions being like and like
Speaker 2: push each other around in this like it like what
Speaker 2: what purpose does this, sir? I don't want to know.
Speaker 1: I just don't ride.
Speaker 2: Yes, they are just doing mustache rides. They are That
Speaker 2: is for fun. That is something they invented for each
Speaker 2: other to give each other pleasure. And you're like, what
Speaker 2: is the one that's doing it? Like what are they
Speaker 2: receiving there? Receiving the pleasure of the recipient, which is
Speaker 2: like very fascinating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which even and we think like, well, dolphins are
Speaker 1: super super smart, so okay, maybe not so surprising they
Speaker 1: do this, but bats like give kunnelingis.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's love it. And you know, scientists are like,
Speaker 2: well there's nutrition in the semen.
Speaker 1: And it's like I don't know.
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, yes that's awesome and that's awesome, but like
Speaker 2: which came first? Also, like when did where they like,
Speaker 2: this feels good because we have erogenous zones that it
Speaker 2: can be stimulated that have an impact, and so we
Speaker 2: find you know, we speaking of just like greater creatures,
Speaker 2: creatures find ways to stimulate each other's erogenous zones and
Speaker 2: then if maybe it's a byproduct that they discover. Like
Speaker 2: also there's like a nutritional advantage to consuming the sweat
Speaker 2: the runoff minerals to consuming the semen and what's in that.
Speaker 2: But I don't don't know if they were like I
Speaker 2: forgot to take my multi multi vitamin today, Like, bro,
Speaker 2: you down, Like I don't think that that's.
Speaker 1: What they were, bro, Yeah, feeling a little hungry. I Mean.
Speaker 1: The thing for me is that bats are highly social
Speaker 1: and one of the more chill social species, right, Like
Speaker 1: there's not a huge amount of conflict and violence. Sure,
Speaker 1: there's like some squabbles, of course, there will be, but
Speaker 1: they don't. They're like, you know, and when I say bats,
Speaker 1: there's so many species of bats, but this is pretty
Speaker 1: general to bats that are our colony. Bats that will
Speaker 1: roost together in large numbers. They have allo parenting where
Speaker 1: they you know, kind of watch after each other's young.
Speaker 1: There's behavior especially in bats that, like vampire bats, are
Speaker 1: actually very very like rare. In terms of species of bats,
Speaker 1: there's only like a couple species of vampire two or
Speaker 1: three species of vampire bats, whereas the rest of them
Speaker 1: are either insectivores, nectar wars, or frugivores. But for vampire
Speaker 1: bats and other bats where meals are kind of hard
Speaker 1: to get and their metabolism is really fast, they'll share
Speaker 1: meals with each other. And it's kind of described as
Speaker 1: this like social safety net where it's like, if you
Speaker 1: miss a meal, your neighbor who you have had it like,
Speaker 1: it's your friends, right, Usually a stranger won't do it.
Speaker 1: But if you're friends with people and you've shared before,
Speaker 1: you're also going to get shared back with. And so
Speaker 1: for me, like that indicates to me with in terms
Speaker 1: of bat sexuality, that it is seems to be all
Speaker 1: the components are aligning to me that this is a
Speaker 1: behavior that sure there's probably some like there could be
Speaker 1: some you know advantage to it, right, like, but it
Speaker 1: could also be they're highly social, They're quite friendly with
Speaker 1: each other, and so this like giving and receiving of
Speaker 1: pleasure with the bats is something that they enjoy and
Speaker 1: helps them get along. And it's just you know, good vibes,
Speaker 1: good bet vibe.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and like you said, that's very common among many
Speaker 2: social animals. And I think that we don't want to
Speaker 2: think about ourselves as being interdependently linked, about you know,
Speaker 2: being heard animals, about being social creatures because of this
Speaker 2: like a particularly American idea of individualism, and you know,
Speaker 2: like we very taken to heart the mythos of survival
Speaker 2: of the fittest, when in fact, like we would be
Speaker 2: when they're stronger forms of community care, community childcare, mutual aid,
Speaker 2: like we are going to survive more. Like I live
Speaker 2: in New Orleans and there's so many social aid and
Speaker 2: pleasure clubs, and it makes so much sense that social
Speaker 2: aid and pleasure are put together, because if you're going
Speaker 2: to be there for each other in acts of survival,
Speaker 2: being there for each other in acts of joy and
Speaker 2: exuberance is also really important, and we do see that
Speaker 2: reflected among so many other socially oriented mammals.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, So that's.
Speaker 2: Are some of the earliest ones that were like witnessed
Speaker 2: by Western scientists. Those accounts go way back. People are
Speaker 2: like bats are doing it.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's where the sexy vampire came from. We see
Speaker 1: bets doing this and we're like, man, vampires, vampires gotta
Speaker 1: be kinky, even though even though most bets are not vampires.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I really do deeply believe that the
Speaker 2: idea of the sexy vampire does come from like sex
Speaker 2: morality and the fear of having sex of STI is
Speaker 2: like sexually transmitted infections and things like not knowing about it,
Speaker 2: not wanting to talk about it, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's also like it that there's the fear,
Speaker 1: but there's also the allure, which is why like vampires
Speaker 1: became very sexual topic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a very New Orleans talk.
Speaker 1: Whenever, whenever we whenever, we're like, wait, was that the
Speaker 1: there was a Is that where there were the like
Speaker 1: vampire facials or is that not? Is that Florida?
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, I'm gonna need you to say more.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a little bit of a tangent.
Speaker 2: You're gonna throw off my google's orchest.
Speaker 1: Okay, it's I I promise it's well, no, I can't
Speaker 1: promise anything. So it's it actually has nothing to do
Speaker 1: with sex, but it's like a well, okay, I can't
Speaker 1: say that for sure. It's where they like where they
Speaker 1: like take some of your blood and then like put
Speaker 1: it back on your face. But like it's I get
Speaker 1: or like inject it back on your.
Speaker 2: Is it topical because I've definitely heard about like plasma injection.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think it's like I don't think it's topical.
Speaker 1: I think it's like they they take some of your
Speaker 1: blood and then use like micro needles to like put
Speaker 1: it back in your face.
Speaker 2: That's specific to New Orleans, okay, But New Orleans you
Speaker 2: can go to like Bourbon Street and get like a
Speaker 2: blood bag, and it's just like the cheapest form of
Speaker 2: red wine.
Speaker 1: Is it is New Orleans. I just didn't know that
Speaker 1: New Orleans is like vampire Central. Is that where all
Speaker 1: the vami?
Speaker 2: It really is and for many reasons, and part of
Speaker 2: it is an rice in the popularity of interview with
Speaker 2: a vampire, but it also has to do with just
Speaker 2: like the high frequency of transmissible diseases in the first
Speaker 2: several hundred years at being a place that was like
Speaker 2: specifically inflicted by tuberculosis and yellow fever and not understanding
Speaker 2: what these vectors were and it being like a very
Speaker 2: Catholic place. Was it like the Mosquito so a very
Speaker 2: wanton place. Yeah, mosquito prevalence's blow sea levels, so like
Speaker 2: so many things were like linking that and then and
Speaker 2: then you throw in sex morality and it's like, oh, people,
Speaker 2: people who are out at night are more likely to
Speaker 2: get these diseases. Maybe it's because they're exposed to vectors
Speaker 2: like mosquitoes, but maybe it's also because of their activities.
Speaker 2: What are they doing, Like if they were only leaving
Speaker 2: the house to go to church, maybe they're not going
Speaker 2: to be getting yellow feet, so they must. So you
Speaker 2: start to see these it must be a.
Speaker 1: Hair of sexy vampires. I'll second on each other's but
Speaker 1: I swear like purit and logic is the kinkiest thing.
Speaker 1: Like I don't think, I don't.
Speaker 3: Like they come up they come up with that, yea
Speaker 3: yea yah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah yeah yeah right, And that's something that we
Speaker 2: came up with we came across in this where it's
Speaker 2: like scientists trying to explain, like gay sex have provided
Speaker 2: us with so many incredible reasons to participate in gay sex,
Speaker 2: and then like the only reason that they've given us
Speaker 2: to participate in like hetero sex is to have babies.
Speaker 2: But then they're like they're like, okay, well, social for
Speaker 2: like social bonding, nutritional aids, Like there's so many reasons
Speaker 2: why gay sex is good for you.
Speaker 1: Okay, great, sounds like it sounds like science has a
Speaker 1: pro gay agenda.
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they don't know you
Speaker 2: heard it here.
Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break, and then when
Speaker 1: we get back, we're going to talk about sex and
Speaker 1: gender in the Animal Kingdom. Okay, so we have talked
Speaker 1: about sexuality, and I do also want to talk about
Speaker 1: sex and gender because I think like the sort of again,
Speaker 1: I spend too much time on Twitter because I think
Speaker 1: I'm masochist, and like there's always this conversation about like, well,
Speaker 1: biology says there's two sexes, and so anyone who says
Speaker 1: any different isn't listening to biology. And I've already explained
Speaker 1: why this argument is so frustrating in terms of how
Speaker 1: it's so it so simplifies both the human experience and
Speaker 1: also biology, Like it you don't understand biology, you're also
Speaker 1: making biology sound like something really boring and simplistic, and
Speaker 1: it's not. But I think, you know, it is like
Speaker 1: we can definitely talk about like examples in the natural
Speaker 1: world and how sex can be very fluid, what it
Speaker 1: means for there to be even gender in the natural world.
Speaker 1: But also just like again the thing that we've talked
Speaker 1: about before, the idea that something like that there is
Speaker 1: something that is natural and biology driven and then that's
Speaker 1: how we should shape our society after those it's such
Speaker 1: a weird like to me, that's that is so backwards, right,
Speaker 1: where sure we can understand things about biology, but litting
Speaker 1: that determine how we live our lives, right, and how
Speaker 1: we accept other people, how what we want in a
Speaker 1: community of people. Is kind of strange because it's like
Speaker 1: I thought, the whole point of civilization again is underpants
Speaker 1: and eyeglasses. I can't actually think of any other reasons
Speaker 1: we have civilization. They've been underpants and eyeglasses. But you know,
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are other good stuff too. Vampire facial
Speaker 1: vampire facial right, yah, clearly exactly. So clownfish is that
Speaker 1: they are like the kind of uh, I think like
Speaker 1: poster boys and girls of sex fluidity in nature because
Speaker 1: they're very charismatic species. Right. But this happens for like, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of animals have this. It's called
Speaker 1: sequential hermaphroditism. Uh. It's basically when an animal you can
Speaker 1: have animals that are hermaphrodites, meaning that they have both
Speaker 1: male and female genitals, and they can both have female
Speaker 1: biological processes or male biological processes at the same time,
Speaker 1: but in sequential hermaphroditism. I gotta hate that that word is.
Speaker 2: I hate the Greeks you're doing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it really is. It is. When it is,
Speaker 1: it's something that happens in a specific sequence. So it's
Speaker 1: like you start off as one sex and then become
Speaker 1: another sex. And sometimes it's under specific it's usually under
Speaker 1: specific conditions. So for clownfish, the classic example, you have
Speaker 1: a bunch of male clownfish, and you have a dominant
Speaker 1: female and a male who is her breeding partner, and
Speaker 1: then you have the submissive males who you know kind
Speaker 1: of like are in this like I guess royal Court
Speaker 1: of clownfish. And then if something happens to the female
Speaker 1: a uh, the breeding partner of the female actually then
Speaker 1: becomes the next female uh. And then and one of
Speaker 1: the other submissive males then becomes her breeding partner. And
Speaker 1: it's just sort of this like it's kind of an exchange.
Speaker 1: And again, like when we talk about I feel like
Speaker 1: it we could spend a huge conversation talking about dominant
Speaker 1: and submissive of in nature and how that's not like
Speaker 1: the idea of being alpha and this kind of the idea,
Speaker 1: and like a lot of these hierarchies are not so
Speaker 1: much like brutal tyrannies of sex and more like, hey,
Speaker 1: we kind of have this system. You guys are younger,
Speaker 1: you'll get your turn, you know, and like as sort
Speaker 1: of swapping out kind of thing where you, you know, you'll.
Speaker 2: Have what if we thought about it more about like
Speaker 2: wisdom or experience and not about force or power.
Speaker 1: And sometimes it can be literally about force and power
Speaker 1: because you know, it really depends on the animal, but
Speaker 1: often it isn't. But the language that we use to
Speaker 1: describe it, I think often has this connotation. But that's
Speaker 1: not necessarily doesn't really capture the nuance of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like you said, there are lots of animals
Speaker 2: that exhibit multiple kinds of reproductive anatomy that are intersex
Speaker 2: colne fish first, sure, but also like larger species like
Speaker 2: grizzly bears will actually develop later in life like a
Speaker 2: functioning pallas while maintaining a functioning birthing canal. So there's
Speaker 2: like different ways that we can see variation within like
Speaker 2: sexual anatomy, and there's also different ways that we can
Speaker 2: see variation within gender and gendered behavior and also like
Speaker 2: the gendered the idea of a gender behavior to your
Speaker 2: point about like what is alpha? What is beta? Like
Speaker 2: this is so much of that is coming from us
Speaker 2: looking to animals and only identifying certain things and not
Speaker 2: really talking about like the larger social context or like
Speaker 2: is are we only seeing a little bit of dominance
Speaker 2: behavior in this one moment, but like what is the reality?
Speaker 2: Is this an you know, writ large across the species
Speaker 2: or is it just those two animals? So it does
Speaker 2: get really complex because it's like really in you know, individualized,
Speaker 2: also talking about like what is the gendered experience or
Speaker 2: behavior of this one animal? But certainly there's so many
Speaker 2: examples of diversity in animal on both counts, both like
Speaker 2: small little creatures existing in the sea that have multiple
Speaker 2: forms of reproductive anatomy and can like jettison one or
Speaker 2: the other based on like what is useful at the time.
Speaker 2: And then you have like hyenas which develop phallasies. All
Speaker 2: the female hyenas develop fallacies that they.
Speaker 1: See and give birth through which.
Speaker 2: And give birth through them exactly, which like grizzly bears
Speaker 2: can do as well. Yes, have been documented. So it's
Speaker 2: like the truth is like there are so many examples
Speaker 2: that we just don't look to, we don't acknowledge because
Speaker 2: it's easier to say that just because something is like
Speaker 2: maybe more frequent, doesn't mean that it is the default
Speaker 2: or the only right, like it confused like a frequency
Speaker 2: of observation as meaning that it is the sole observation,
Speaker 2: where in fact, you know there is there are some
Speaker 2: species that have a higher frequency of same sex sexual
Speaker 2: behavior than like heterosexual sexual behavior, and then there are
Speaker 2: some species that have a very low frequency, but it's
Speaker 2: still there and it's still worth acknowledging as part of
Speaker 2: the full picture of what that experience of that species is, right,
Speaker 2: And that's the same with it comes to gender and sex.
Speaker 3: Right, which is also this is all also within the
Speaker 3: framework of there being two sexes, which there aren't, right,
Speaker 3: So it's also still kind of saying, well, this exists.
Speaker 3: That it's also still thinking about any of this as
Speaker 3: some sort of aberration within the concept of there being
Speaker 3: two sexes, which there are more than two sexes, which
Speaker 3: we all know, but it's still kind of it's still
Speaker 3: kind of thinking of it within that that idea that
Speaker 3: there are these things that exist outside of as opposed
Speaker 3: to there are just more than two sexes. You know,
Speaker 3: like even us having this conversation, there's a little bit
Speaker 3: of that happening.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, there is. Thank you for pointing that out.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, it's very hard to get outside of because we
Speaker 1: live in a society we're in like the fish bowl,
Speaker 1: and then you're sort of trying to be like, well,
Speaker 1: let me take a step outside this fishful for a
Speaker 1: second and like look at it. It's it can be
Speaker 1: tricky especially.
Speaker 2: When you especially when you're like deeply in the papers,
Speaker 2: like and the research and you're like, Okay, I'm trying
Speaker 2: to understand this from this perspective, and then like begin
Speaker 2: to think about it from that perspective, even if it's
Speaker 2: contradictory to like lived.
Speaker 3: Experience, right right, right, because I know that.
Speaker 2: To not be true for me. But then you're like,
Speaker 2: right right, like I'm trying to understand how it's being
Speaker 2: presented to me, and then you start adapting that language,
Speaker 2: and then it becomes this echo chamber and the sort
Speaker 2: of self fulfilling prophecy in that way. Yes, you're like, Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm glad that I can find examples of derivation and
Speaker 2: like and celebrate that. And then it's like, wait, it's
Speaker 2: actually not.
Speaker 1: It just is, right, right, I mean, like it is.
Speaker 2: It just is how it is.
Speaker 1: I mean it's kind of like how there's this example
Speaker 1: of whiptail lizards in New Mexico and we kind of
Speaker 1: myself included, I kind of see them as like it's
Speaker 1: a bunch of these like basically like Amazonian females, right,
Speaker 1: who reproduce asexually. Uh, and they they do they do mate,
Speaker 1: but they don't they don't mate in order to exchange
Speaker 1: genetic information. They mate in order to kind of encourage
Speaker 1: each other to produce a hormone that helps with reproduction.
Speaker 1: But the sex is entirely clonal. It is just their
Speaker 1: own genes that are being recombined to create offspring. But
Speaker 1: the thing is like we think of them right as
Speaker 1: like females, but they also have their triploid so they
Speaker 1: have three sets of chromosomes that they inherited from a mutation.
Speaker 1: And so it's it's interesting where it's like, Okay, so
Speaker 1: now they have these three sets of chromosomes and there
Speaker 1: they a sexually reproduced, they all mate with each other.
Speaker 1: We don't really see them as a different sex outside
Speaker 1: of the binary. We see them as female, which is
Speaker 1: to me just kind of interesting because it's it's you know,
Speaker 1: it is like if we had a society perhaps in
Speaker 1: which we didn't have such a strict binary, we may
Speaker 1: see this as like, hey, this is another type of sex,
Speaker 1: right where you have a A A, you know, this
Speaker 1: entire species where they have essentially evolved this third sex
Speaker 1: that has three chromosomes and recombines them or something like that. Right.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of this perspective of like and certainly
Speaker 1: one that I fall that I fall into all the
Speaker 1: time because like I think about, like, yeah, these are
Speaker 1: Amazonians who are like popping out clones, which I think
Speaker 1: is how Wonder Woman was made. I don't actually follow
Speaker 1: comics too much. I don't know how it works on Themyscira.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but yeah, exactly. That's such an excellent point, like
Speaker 2: this is an example of just yet another sex that exists. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean similarly, like there's been a lot of examples
Speaker 2: of late among I'm gonna watch the pronunciation of this word.
Speaker 1: Welcome to my showmorphism. Yes, so good. You said it
Speaker 1: and I didn't have to say that word.
Speaker 2: And yeah. The way that it's talked about is like
Speaker 2: this is a combination of the two sexes or the
Speaker 2: two genders, and you're like, or it's just another thing,
Speaker 2: Like that's incredible. Also, it's because it is. It is
Speaker 2: another thing. It's not just a like to be like
Speaker 2: non binary is to be like a perfect amount of
Speaker 2: the binary.
Speaker 1: Right. Well, it's kind of funny because it's like it's like,
Speaker 1: there's a binary except for all these exceptions. It's like,
Speaker 1: so not a binary, right.
Speaker 2: Not a binary?
Speaker 1: Not a binary?
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Gynander morphs are really interesting too, because there it
Speaker 1: happens in I think it's specifically because of the way
Speaker 1: that the chromosomes work for butterflies, other insects and birds, like,
Speaker 1: we don't really see this much in mammals, and that's
Speaker 1: because birds have chromosomes that are unique in terms of
Speaker 1: like like unique from mammals, and so it allows for
Speaker 1: asymmetrical gynandromorphy. Look big word you have where you have
Speaker 1: one side that looks let's say female, and one side
Speaker 1: that looks let's say male. But you know it is
Speaker 1: because they're you know, this is not something that would
Speaker 1: necess really happen in a mammal because of these specific
Speaker 1: ways in which like bird genes can combine. And this
Speaker 1: also means that birds can change sex sometimes just spontaneously
Speaker 1: for seemingly no reason. We don't know if there's a reason.
Speaker 1: But and then also birds can occasionally have parthenogenesis where
Speaker 1: they you know, basically don't need to exactly vultures, but
Speaker 1: also chickens, it's hard to know. It's hard to know
Speaker 1: because we don't a lot of these things we observe
Speaker 1: in chickens. Why because we have so many freaking chickens around.
Speaker 1: We surround ourselves with chickens, so we see it in chickens,
Speaker 1: but it's probably happening in a lot of speech. And
Speaker 1: we also the reason we see it in vultures, is
Speaker 1: because they're so a lot of these species are so endangered.
Speaker 1: We observe them very careful. Yeah, we're constantly, Yeah, we're
Speaker 1: monitoring their breeding, we're taking these genetics, we're taking these
Speaker 1: blood samples from them, right because we're tracking them making
Speaker 1: sure that their population is secure. And so that's how
Speaker 1: we catch that. But this could be happening, you know,
Speaker 1: much more frequently than we think. And so the whole
Speaker 1: idea of it being sort of like, well, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's this, It is this like exception to the binar,
Speaker 1: which again is kind of like doesn't really make sense,
Speaker 1: but it's because these these animals, like birds, butterflies, these
Speaker 1: other insects have this unique well not unique to them,
Speaker 1: but different from our kind of uh of chromosome that
Speaker 1: allows for this. And so it's like this idea, like
Speaker 1: the whole thing where you frequently hear it's like well
Speaker 1: x y is male and xx is female, and it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: but that's not how it is for birds, uh, and
Speaker 1: that's not how it is. And like also that's not
Speaker 1: how it is for humans too, like and so like
Speaker 1: if you if you can have all these counter examples.
Speaker 1: Then it's like, well, maybe we should understand that this
Speaker 1: is more complicated than you know, something that you learn
Speaker 1: in third grade. I don't know, I don't remember what grade.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, yeah. And there's examples of animals that
Speaker 2: like do what scientists calls biomimicry, which is like a
Speaker 2: difficult idea to swallow because it's sort of like proposes
Speaker 2: a certain amount of deception or something. But they'll like
Speaker 2: produce hormones and pheromones not associated with the sex that
Speaker 2: they this animal has been assigned, and you know, to
Speaker 2: try to figure out like why would they do this,
Speaker 2: you know, like for garter snakes, like maybe it's about warmth,
Speaker 2: but maybe it's just about like you know, because they
Speaker 2: invite sudden, they invite a bunch of male attention or something,
Speaker 2: and it's like, who knows. This is just another incredible
Speaker 2: example of all the different ways that like sex and
Speaker 2: gender play out. Yeah, just like don't support the prevailing theory.
Speaker 1: Right, And like there's there are animals where their juvenile
Speaker 1: forms look all female and then their adult forms will diverge.
Speaker 1: Or a lot of birds, yes you have male and
Speaker 1: female seabirds, but pretty much all of their behavior is
Speaker 1: exactly the same, their plumage, their courtship, it's all the same.
Speaker 3: Yeah. We talk about pigeons in the series and of
Speaker 3: you know, sexually monomorphic species, and of like you know,
Speaker 3: looking at just walking the streets of New York City
Speaker 3: and all these kind of stories that we project onto
Speaker 3: two pigeons, you know, one pigeon chasing another pigeon, and
Speaker 3: this story of like, oh, there's that man you know,
Speaker 3: chasing that that that woman. There's that husband chasing that wife,
Speaker 3: and you know, because they look the same. But it's like,
Speaker 3: we have no idea.
Speaker 1: You know, it could be.
Speaker 3: Two males, two females, you know, but like that, that's
Speaker 3: what we're doing with all of these species that might
Speaker 3: look the same to our naked eye, and you know
Speaker 3: they're probably gay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, let's just start roaming around with that as
Speaker 2: the primary assumption. Like why not? Yeah, but we are
Speaker 2: so limited, like our observational prowess. Be it what it
Speaker 2: is is, we're so limited.
Speaker 1: In what we can and we have no idea what weigh.
Speaker 2: So many species. We don't know, no idea what whales
Speaker 2: are up to.
Speaker 1: We do not know what girls are doing. They're too big.
Speaker 1: We can't fit them in, Like when too far away, big,
Speaker 1: they're too far away. We have no idea. They could
Speaker 1: have all they don't want us to know.
Speaker 2: They don't want us to know. They don't want us
Speaker 2: to know.
Speaker 1: But they could have nukes and we wouldn't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, what I love about the humpback whale
Speaker 2: is there the humpback whale is like you all creatures
Speaker 2: are obsessed with us and we have been living stealth
Speaker 2: TIHI for so long. But then they're like, we're going
Speaker 2: to show you sex for the first time, but it's
Speaker 2: going to be gay sex. The recent in March the
Speaker 2: first observation of humpback whale sex and it was like
Speaker 2: gay sex, and like they did that strategically. They're like,
Speaker 2: we just we know that you're going to be wringing
Speaker 2: your hands for another century trying to figure that out.
Speaker 1: They immediately immediately log onto Twitter to see the fallout.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're like, oh, we look good, yeah,
Speaker 1: and they do. An example that I like was like this,
Speaker 1: there was this group of lionesses who, well the way
Speaker 1: they're described as like lionesses who grewmines and start acting
Speaker 1: as like like males in Botswana, and you know, like,
Speaker 1: first of all, they were really cool looking because they
Speaker 1: have kind of it looked a little bit like a
Speaker 1: lion foxhawk, which is fun. They were somehow able to
Speaker 1: confirm that they had high testosterone levels. But again, I
Speaker 1: mean that's kind of an example of how we're like, well,
Speaker 1: they're female lions, but they have high testosterone and they're
Speaker 1: acting like males rather than like, you know, this combination
Speaker 1: of aspects for this group of lions. So it's something else.
Speaker 2: And we need different language. I think they're just very
Speaker 2: limited by our language. Yeah, like it holds so much power.
Speaker 2: We just need different language. We need to stop saying
Speaker 2: like these are females that are behaving like males, but
Speaker 2: also like have biology of females and males, and you're like,
Speaker 2: it's something else. Yeah, exactly, we need that word. Maybe
Speaker 2: it's just a human preoccupation to be like what are you?
Speaker 1: But yeah, I would like to see someone try to
Speaker 1: do that to a lion, be like pick one, pick
Speaker 1: a gender and then they're just getting their face ripped
Speaker 1: off by a lion.
Speaker 2: Yeah, listeners can look this up. But there was recently
Speaker 2: two male lions who were caught on video having sex
Speaker 2: and the like. Park officials were like, they're not gay.
Speaker 2: They just saw gay humans. They saw gay humans and
Speaker 2: they wanted to try it out. They're just mimicking humans.
Speaker 2: This is because of humans and it's like, wow, the
Speaker 2: like the leaps that will go through.
Speaker 1: They read a book in middle school that told them
Speaker 1: turn them gay. Well, you guys, before we go, we
Speaker 1: do got to play a little game. It's called Guests
Speaker 1: Who Squawk and the Mystery Animal Sound game is a
Speaker 1: game in which I play a mystery animal sound and
Speaker 1: sometimes I'm very sneaky and tricky about it, and you,
Speaker 1: the guest, and you the listener, try to guess who
Speaker 1: is making that sound. It can be any animal in
Speaker 1: the world or in space. Once we find them, it's
Speaker 1: only a matter of time. So here is the hint
Speaker 1: for last week's mystery animal sound. They can be victims
Speaker 1: of thieves or thieves themselves. May the most cunning rogues win?
Speaker 2: Are we to guess what the animal sound is?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: Okay, Well you're in for a treat. Because Lane and I,
Speaker 2: when it comes to competition, are really bad.
Speaker 1: I do like I do like to say that this
Speaker 1: is not a gotcha if I had to play this game,
Speaker 1: I would be terrible at it.
Speaker 2: But the fun part truth it's we're neither good nor bad,
Speaker 2: but we're a secret.
Speaker 1: Third thing, the fun part is I get to act
Speaker 1: really smug because I just look for the animal sound
Speaker 1: and then make I'm like the Riddler of animal sounds.
Speaker 1: All right here it is?
Speaker 3: Okay, all right?
Speaker 1: Did you hear some of those squawking sounds?
Speaker 2: So I heard the sounds. There was squawks, for sure,
Speaker 2: some sort of short staccato squawks. There were some like
Speaker 2: context sounds of London waves.
Speaker 1: There was some horns. There was some wind.
Speaker 2: Uh huh uh huh. I mean this is Lene and
Speaker 2: I talking amongst ourselves. But like my impulse is to say,
Speaker 2: like a goal or a turn. Yeah, like squawking the location.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely some sort of sort of seabird.
Speaker 2: How specific we're supposed to get.
Speaker 1: But I mean as specific as you want to be.
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, it's some sort of some sort of goal.
Speaker 3: It had like less of like a real squawk, you know,
Speaker 3: like it was a little more muted m hm. So
Speaker 3: it's like that's why I'm thinking, like maybe not like
Speaker 3: it wasn't like a seagull it had like a more
Speaker 3: of like a muted kind of yeah, you know, hmmm.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe let's see what else what other birds such?
Speaker 2: I don't think it's a sure bird because it did
Speaker 2: sound like bigger. What we do agree that we think
Speaker 2: it's a bird.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think you're safe to assume it's
Speaker 1: a bird at this point.
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, And we do agree that we think it's
Speaker 2: a gay bird.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I think it's safe to assume it's a
Speaker 1: gay bird, just to assume.
Speaker 2: Okay, so it's a gay bird.
Speaker 3: I what do do pelicans make noises like that? Now?
Speaker 2: Like that in my experience, I mean, I feel like
Speaker 2: it's smaller than an albatross, bigger than a plo for Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean I think that it's like seagull, I mean
Speaker 2: a goal of some sort. I don't think it's a
Speaker 2: laughing goal, but I do think it's a kind of goal, uh,
Speaker 2: or a turn.
Speaker 1: I'll give you another hint. It does have some relevance
Speaker 1: to this episode, just actually coincidentally.
Speaker 3: Okay, it's a it's a like a it's.
Speaker 2: A it's a lesbian seagull. It's a lesbian seagull.
Speaker 1: Yes, well, I can confidently say it is. Well, look,
Speaker 1: most likely it is lesbian, but it is in fact
Speaker 1: a deli penguin. You're so close circle.
Speaker 2: We have listened to so much like tape of penguin
Speaker 2: sounds that we've recorded, and like, I didn't think.
Speaker 1: It is so hard. See. The thing about sea birds
Speaker 1: is they all are They all vaguely look like little
Speaker 1: angry butlers and sound like little angry angry butlers, so
Speaker 1: it is hard to tell the difference. But yeah, they
Speaker 1: are found in the Antarctic. They craft amazing nests out
Speaker 1: of rocks for they're young, but they will often try
Speaker 1: to steal rocks from each other to furnish their own nest. Uh.
Speaker 1: And yes, they are often gay, so you know. And
Speaker 1: these penguins have been observed like taking turns having gay sex.
Speaker 1: So there is really no I guess question. Like it's
Speaker 1: not like you know, they accidentally slipped on an ice
Speaker 1: flow and happened upon a penguin orgy there. It's very intentional.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: And so you know they can rob your pebbles or
Speaker 1: your heart. These little penguins look so cute. Yes, all right,
Speaker 1: So onto this week's mystery animal sound hint is this
Speaker 1: is it a noodle. Is it a cat or is
Speaker 1: it neither? All right, you guys have any guesses? Noodle
Speaker 1: or what is it a noodle? Is it a cat
Speaker 1: or is it something else?
Speaker 2: Entirely, I just think it would be cruel if it
Speaker 2: was something.
Speaker 3: Else entire I'm gonna go with cat.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go with noodle. I think it's it sounds
Speaker 2: to me like something that's like getting wind through it,
Speaker 2: which I guess is how a boys box work.
Speaker 1: The boys box is essentially a noodle, you know, it
Speaker 1: is essentially a meat.
Speaker 2: A meat noodle is a throat, but not a noodle.
Speaker 1: But not a meat noodle. Yes, meat noodle is gonna be.
Speaker 2: I just feel like if it was a cat, like
Speaker 2: what it be so sort of like consistent across like
Speaker 2: every time that we heard, I would just like imagine
Speaker 2: that would be a little bit more variation, and it's
Speaker 2: like total quality and it's like hitch, it's just so consistent.
Speaker 2: So it makes me think it's just like it it's
Speaker 2: like a noodle that has one shape that doesn't change
Speaker 2: on like a voice box, and so you're just gonna
Speaker 2: get that consistency at pitch. So I think it's so.
Speaker 1: Jital So I've got one for cat.
Speaker 2: Now I'm hungry.
Speaker 1: I've got one for cat, one for a noodle. I
Speaker 1: you both are in a way correct, but the true
Speaker 1: answer will not be revealed until next week's preach your
Speaker 1: feature clip hair noodles and cats falling off cliffs. Oh no, guys,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me today. This was
Speaker 1: a wonderful conversation. I'm so excited for your podcast. Just
Speaker 1: so people can remember, tell them what the name of
Speaker 1: your podcast is, they can find it and where they
Speaker 1: can find you guys.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, the podcast is called a Field Guide to
Speaker 3: Gay Animals and it is out June thirteenth, and it's
Speaker 3: five episodes, So the first episode is out June thirteenth,
Speaker 3: and then it will be out weekly after that. Wherever
Speaker 3: you get your podcasts, so you know, just go to
Speaker 3: your little podcast app and you'll be able to find
Speaker 3: it and look.
Speaker 2: Up a Field Guide to Gay Animals and we'll be there.
Speaker 1: We'll be there.
Speaker 3: That's where you can find it. That's where you can
Speaker 3: find us, and.
Speaker 2: Find us on Instagram as well at a Field Guide
Speaker 2: to Gay Animals.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and thank you so much for having us, Katie.
Speaker 2: This was so fun so much for.
Speaker 1: Having Yeah, this is super fun for me.
Speaker 2: I enjoy being a featured Creature.
Speaker 1: And thank you guys so much for listening. If you're
Speaker 1: enjoying the show, if you leave a rating and review,
Speaker 1: it tangibly helps me and I read every single one
Speaker 1: of your reviews, all of them, no matter the cost.
Speaker 1: And thank you so much to the Space Cossics for
Speaker 1: their super awesome song Exo. Lumina. Creature features a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like the one you just heard,
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio ap Apple podcast. He guess what where
Speaker 1: have you listen to your favorite shows? I don't care.
Speaker 1: I'm not your mother, and I can't tell you what
Speaker 1: to do. You gotta be the captain pilot of your
Speaker 1: own life, if your life is a ship or a plane. Anyways,
Speaker 1: I'll see you next Wednesday.