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Speaker 1: Welcome to Creature feature production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host

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Speaker 1: of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology,

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Speaker 1: and today on this show, Happy Pride Month. Everybody, we

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Speaker 1: are talking about all the ways in which animals and

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Speaker 1: nature shatter cis heteronormativity. I cannot say that word very good.

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Speaker 1: From clownfish to banana Bo's biology and the animal world

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Speaker 1: is far more complex than prudes. What have you think

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Speaker 1: it is? Joining me today are hosts of the podcast

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Speaker 1: A Field Guide to Gay Animals, a podcast exploring queerness

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Speaker 1: in the natural world.

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Speaker 2: Laanen Ollen Welcome, Hello, Yes, Happy Pride Mom.

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Speaker 3: Hi, thanks for having us.

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Speaker 1: I am super excited about this because I actually get

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Speaker 1: so many listener questions about this, and I've been wanting

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Speaker 1: to do a whole show just kind of diving into

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Speaker 1: this on both a philosophical level and sort of sociological

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Speaker 1: level on the human side, and then the biology of

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Speaker 1: it on the animal side, and then how that all

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Speaker 1: does not have a strict boundary, so to.

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Speaker 2: Speak, absolutely absolutely so what And that's something that we

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Speaker 2: are also aiming to accomplish with the podcast, especially when

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Speaker 2: talking to scientists who are observing the biology of it,

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Speaker 2: but and are threading that needle but then not taking

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Speaker 2: it a step farther to figure out, like what's the

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Speaker 2: interpretation of this, what is sort of the reflective value

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Speaker 2: of this, Like what do we make of this? What

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Speaker 2: does this mean for our lives?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely, you can do a study and you know

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Speaker 1: it's I mean, this is all exactly what I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about. Because you hear a lot in sort

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Speaker 1: of I guess, like in polarizing arguments like this is

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Speaker 1: what science says, or science says this is right or

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Speaker 1: this is wrong. It's to me saying well science says this,

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Speaker 1: it's like, well, science doesn't say anything. Science is in

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Speaker 1: terms of like morality, in terms of social goods. Necessarily,

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Speaker 1: science is an interpretation of observable factors and then you know,

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Speaker 1: you take those and you try to use a scientific

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Speaker 1: method to have a picture emerged from that, and so

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Speaker 1: that's what science is. We're the ones who get to

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Speaker 1: say what that means. Right. It always feels a little

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Speaker 1: bit like when you kind of and of course I'm

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Speaker 1: obviously a huge proponent of the scientific method, but if

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Speaker 1: someone just says, like well science says, there's like two

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Speaker 1: sexes and that's it. It's like, well, it sounds kind

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Speaker 1: of like, first of all, you haven't been exploring this

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Speaker 1: issue very deeply, and second of all that you're hiding

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Speaker 1: behind this concept of science for your own belief, for

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Speaker 1: your own bias. And yeah, I really like to talk

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Speaker 1: about it because I think it is. It's really interesting,

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Speaker 1: and it's also like I think that it goes a

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Speaker 1: lot deeper than sort of just saying like I remember

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Speaker 1: there being this argument a lot where it's like, well, hey,

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Speaker 1: there's gay penguins, right, so it's okay. It's like, well

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Speaker 1: that's true, but also if there weren't gay penguins, it's

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Speaker 1: still fine, right, Like why do we need to like

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Speaker 1: follow the penguins example, mm hmmm hmm.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I mean this is something that came up

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Speaker 3: a lot. It's exactly what you're talking about. Where we

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Speaker 3: were looking at and talking to, you know, all different

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Speaker 3: types of people that we interviewed, How these observations were

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Speaker 3: treated over time, Like how things that were seen in

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Speaker 3: the wild or animals held in captivity, what then was

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Speaker 3: done with those findings? You know, It's like that's one

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Speaker 3: thing to see something and observe something and then how

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Speaker 3: is that perceived and what's done with that information? And

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Speaker 3: that's something that we really tracked in the series.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because to your point, science is a practice, and

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Speaker 2: therefore it does reflect the worldview of the practitioners. And

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Speaker 2: one thing we learned is that when we have the

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Speaker 2: benefit of distance, either through time or through the simple

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Speaker 2: fact that we are podcasters and not the scientists, we

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Speaker 2: have the ability to more clearly witness the way that's

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Speaker 2: sort of like the miasma morality is actually impacting people.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that there is actually a way that

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Speaker 2: we can step completely outside of our human brain and

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Speaker 2: outside of our human context like social context, historical context

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Speaker 2: to talk about these animal behaviors, and so it often

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Speaker 2: gets worked into some sort of social political project at often.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I mean there is there is no objective

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Speaker 1: point of view. The closest you can get is to

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Speaker 1: sort of be I guess consistent in terms of scientific rigor, right,

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Speaker 1: And so I think that you know that that that

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Speaker 1: is really really true that like science and our own

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Speaker 1: beliefs in sociology form a feedback loop, right, Like there's

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Speaker 1: so much like a basic example is so many studies

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Speaker 1: done on rats, but never done on female rats because

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Speaker 1: it's harder to do it on female rats because they

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Speaker 1: have a menstrual cycle. But then, hey, you know half

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Speaker 1: of the population might also have that too, maybe, so

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Speaker 1: it's it is, it is complicated, and so I think

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Speaker 1: that given that, you know, I also think that like

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Speaker 1: when there's an appeal to science or an appeal to

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Speaker 1: nature in terms of morality, I get very I think

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Speaker 1: that's a very sort of true territory to get into,

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Speaker 1: because if you're appealing to nature, right, like this is

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Speaker 1: natural or this isn't natural? Well, I mean nature is

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Speaker 1: not necessarily a great moral guide. Animals frequently eat their

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Speaker 1: own young, eat their parents, eat their partners. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of stuff that happens in nature that

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Speaker 1: I would not necessarily recommend to people. So I think

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Speaker 1: sometimes this idea of like, well we need to appeal

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Speaker 1: to nature, what is you know, what is natural in

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Speaker 1: order to determine what our society should look like? Is

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Speaker 1: it's just a non starter for me. I mean, we

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Speaker 1: wear underwear and glasses. What what is anyone talking about?

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Speaker 1: So you know, I think I mean, not me, but

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Speaker 1: to each their own, to each their own. Sometimes I

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Speaker 1: get them mixed up, and I think it's an easy

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Speaker 1: mistake to make. But O, there's not so much.

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Speaker 2: You know it. Yes, yes, there are definitely like risks

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Speaker 2: and rewards to looking for analogues among the natural world.

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Speaker 2: We're looking to science to sort of like justify and

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Speaker 2: the behavior to your point, like human species has its

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Speaker 2: own code of ethics, but that code of ethics isn't

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Speaker 2: universal to all of us, right, It probably differs between

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Speaker 2: the three of us right now, And certainly when you expand.

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Speaker 1: Up is it the underwear exactly?

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly exactly, and we don't all abide by it,

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Speaker 2: and you know, entirely all of the time. I think

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Speaker 2: that it's beautiful to look for forms of reflection and

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Speaker 2: to help us understand that we are also mammals. Yes,

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Speaker 2: and there are going to be more similarities than we

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Speaker 2: have given ourselves the benefit of observing and witnessing when

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Speaker 2: we start looking for it and start asking those questions.

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Speaker 2: There's been such an abundance of silencing or what we

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Speaker 2: like to say, closeting of queer animals and queer animal

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Speaker 2: behavior over time. And since we're you know, not scientists,

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Speaker 2: we're podcasters, we're curious people. We get to come at

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Speaker 2: it a little bit more enthusiastically from the other side

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Speaker 2: and be like, let's really highlight and celebrate these things

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Speaker 2: that have been deemed marginal or misclassified or a moral

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Speaker 2: or degenerate, you know, that pathologization that continues to happen.

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Speaker 2: We get to be like, no, we're going to celebrate

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Speaker 2: that because we're going to see that there is a

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Speaker 2: diversity in nature, which doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going

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Speaker 2: to have to go out and start, you know, behaving

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Speaker 2: exactly like a bonobo, right, I mean that would be cool.

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Speaker 2: We're going to talk about before eating.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about bonobos and how chill they are,

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Speaker 1: but sure.

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Speaker 3: And ways they stay chill, right exactly exactly.

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Speaker 2: I think that there are things to learn, you know,

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Speaker 2: exactly humans. Humans have always looked to nature for metaphor,

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Speaker 2: whether it's like poetic yes metaphor philosophical metaphor spiritual metaphor.

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Speaker 2: And I like, you want to be guided by rigorous,

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Speaker 2: data driven scientific inquiry and mythology. I'm sorry methodology, but

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Speaker 2: I'm also influenced by nature mythology and wonder and poetry exactly,

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Speaker 2: and these sort of like intangible meaning making that we

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Speaker 2: can we have the gift of being able to do

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Speaker 2: as human animals.

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Speaker 1: I think that's extremely well put, because I mean that's

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Speaker 1: when I talk about animal behavior on the show. I

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Speaker 1: think that the thing that is so lovely to me

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Speaker 1: is to find something in an animal that is really

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Speaker 1: hard to relate to, like a jumping spider, and then

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Speaker 1: you discover something about them where it's like they might dream,

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Speaker 1: Like we see them have random eye movement, and so

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Speaker 1: these little jumping spiders might be sitting there in their

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Speaker 1: little webs having dreams, little spider dreams, and it's just

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Speaker 1: it makes me feel so I don't know, connected, and

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Speaker 1: you know this this beauty and nature of like sometimes

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Speaker 1: we underestimate animals in terms of their depth, and obviously

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Speaker 1: sometimes we might over anthropomorphize them, but we can also

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Speaker 1: like see them as so alien to us, and sometimes

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Speaker 1: they're not. Sometimes there are these shared things, and so

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Speaker 1: I think that looking for those things in terms of sex,

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Speaker 1: sexuality and even gender, which is another thing that's like

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Speaker 1: very complicated when it comes to animals, right, but it

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Speaker 1: is something where we can both do it too much

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Speaker 1: but also too little. Like in terms of gender, I

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Speaker 1: would say, like with animals. A lot of animals probably

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Speaker 1: don't have a concept of gender. Most I would say

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Speaker 1: probably do not if we're going by the sort of

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Speaker 1: biomass like ants, I kind of don't think they do.

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Speaker 1: But there may be some animals that do have a

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Speaker 1: concept of gender. And I would guess that the animals

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Speaker 1: who are highly social and have very sort of distinctive

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Speaker 1: social roles may actually have a concept of gender. It's

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Speaker 1: just something that is extremely difficult to quantify. But just

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Speaker 1: because you can't quantify it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

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Speaker 1: It just means we haven't learned that animals language, how

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Speaker 1: they communicated, or how they express gender, or what it

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Speaker 1: means to them, But it could still be there. And

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Speaker 1: so you know, basically this is just all to say

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Speaker 1: that biology and behavior, both in humans and animals is super,

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Speaker 1: super complex and interwoven. I think that, like.

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Speaker 3: It.

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Speaker 1: Is amazing to see these various examples, but it's also

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Speaker 1: good to be careful about, you know, recognizing that there

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Speaker 1: are definitely both differences in terms of huge human behaviors

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Speaker 1: and human ethics and what we want in our society

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Speaker 1: in terms of like just I mean, for me at least,

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Speaker 1: it's like the idea of all of this kind of

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Speaker 1: investigation about like, well, what causes you know, lgbt qeness

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Speaker 1: and you know it does it happen in nature? It's

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Speaker 1: like that should it should be more of just an

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Speaker 1: appreciation right of nature and of humanity and less about

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Speaker 1: some kind of like weird investigation in terms of like

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Speaker 1: like is this okay? It's like yes, I mean because

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Speaker 1: it's fine, like chill out, and less of like sort

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Speaker 1: of this idea of we're looking to animals to kind

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Speaker 1: of guide us, and more we're looking to animals because

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Speaker 1: it's freaking cool.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, it is freaking cool. Yeah, it is freaking cool. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I wish we weren't in a position where we

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Speaker 2: had to politically argue for the value of queerness and

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Speaker 2: human animal and then like use the biopolitics of nature.

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Speaker 2: But that but that's where we are. That's where we are.

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Speaker 2: You know, we have family add crimes against Nature statutes,

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Speaker 2: and I think that's a symptom of like we as

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Speaker 2: human animals have forgotten that we are animals and like

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Speaker 2: what we do is going to be unique and different

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Speaker 2: and also like intricately connected to all of other things,

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Speaker 2: and like we should just embrace all of that diversity

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Speaker 2: within ourselves and within the larger animal queendom, as we

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Speaker 2: like to say.

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Speaker 3: And it's also i think in reaction to what has

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Speaker 3: still been largely the response to seeing this in nature

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Speaker 3: by scientists, which is what we heard over and over

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Speaker 3: again in our conversations, which is seeing you know, two

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Speaker 3: male let's say, bonobos, even though that's a common example,

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Speaker 3: or or dolphins another common example, or you know, beatles

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Speaker 3: maybe a less common example, having sex and then saying

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Speaker 3: we have no idea why this is happening, instead of

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Speaker 3: just saying, oh, look, this is happening, because of course

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Speaker 3: it's happening. Yeah, And like that's that very reaction being

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Speaker 3: this need for us to still kind of feel compelled to,

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Speaker 3: you know, come to this defense or respond this way.

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Speaker 3: That that's been the response. The response has been what's

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Speaker 3: going on here? This is this is so bizarre.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there must.

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Speaker 1: Be some strange reason.

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Speaker 3: There must be some reason why they're doing this, versus

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Speaker 3: they're doing this because they want.

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Speaker 2: To, you know, yeah, which is something we rarely like

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Speaker 2: give two animals. You talked about like we don't know

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Speaker 2: how to quantify the perspective of gender and animals, we

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Speaker 2: also have a really difficult understanding of pleasure. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: therefore we often deny animals pleasure. And so we've seen

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Speaker 2: discourse and record where they're like, these two animals are

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Speaker 2: doing this thing, and like there must be some reason,

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Speaker 2: maybe it's social, maybe it's biological, genetic something, and then

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Speaker 2: it's like, could be pleasure. And that's like an example

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Speaker 2: of that is the female Japanese macaque. They were like,

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Speaker 2: why do these ladies keep having sex? We're gonna do

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Speaker 2: like rigorous study to figure out, like there's got to

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Speaker 2: be a reason.

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Speaker 1: Which coincidentally is how scientists in the eighteen hundreds talked

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Speaker 1: about actual human women.

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Speaker 2: Right exactly right, And some of the earliest like scientists

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Speaker 2: who are like, we're gonna study, you know, sexual and

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Speaker 2: gender deviants among humans were also then simultaneously doing it

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Speaker 2: among animals because they were like already drawing these parallels

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Speaker 2: and being like there is something else strange and aberrant

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Speaker 2: going on, and it's really hard. It took us human

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Speaker 2: animals a long time to get to the point where

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Speaker 2: it's like, well, pleasure is a big factor of that. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Like yes, they're social factors, always are, but we can

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Speaker 2: do it because we want to.

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Speaker 4: This is also animals.

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Speaker 1: And this is actually something we talk about a lot

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Speaker 1: on the show, where it's like sometimes animals just like

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Speaker 1: to have fun. You can sing the song in your head.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to do it because I can't sing

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Speaker 1: and I don't own the rights to that song. But

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Speaker 1: animals do like to have fun. Like sometimes crows will

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Speaker 1: just seem to play around like snowboard for no reason.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of pleasure bats, I've seen that.

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Speaker 2: The ones that are just like they jump off and

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Speaker 2: they just yeah, they just.

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Speaker 1: Like rise exactly, or they'll jump off.

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Speaker 2: Feel feels so good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And sometimes they you know, they'll like there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of playful animal behavior that the explanation is probably

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Speaker 1: just I don't know, I think they just are having

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Speaker 1: a cool time.

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Speaker 2: It's like like that blurs into sexual behavior as well.

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Speaker 2: Some of it is like so playful, but often scientists,

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Speaker 2: especially if it's male male sexual behavior, they're like, it's

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Speaker 2: got to be aggressive. This has to be a dominant despa,

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Speaker 2: which is just like, yeah, possible way that these alphas

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Speaker 2: are having joy, Like that's just not that's not the

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Speaker 2: story we've written.

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Speaker 1: Can we can we finally make space for alpha joy, Like,

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Speaker 1: is this going to happen? No, I think that's I

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Speaker 1: think that's exactly right. We're gonna take a quick break

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Speaker 1: and then we are gonna bust up the myth of

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Speaker 1: nature being some kind of Noah's arc of of just

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Speaker 1: perfect heteronormativity. So we will be right back. All right,

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Speaker 1: So we are back, And you know, I think that

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Speaker 1: something that's interesting is if you ask people about like,

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Speaker 1: are there gay animals? You know, I think people will say, like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, I've I've heard of the penguins. The penguins

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Speaker 1: are such a famous example. And the reason I think

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Speaker 1: that penguins are so notable is that there's a bunch

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Speaker 1: of them in captivity and they form monoga as pair bonds,

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Speaker 1: so we can actually observe it really well. But when

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Speaker 1: you look into it, it's when I use this language

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Speaker 1: is going to sound very awkward and like weird, weird

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Speaker 1: sort of science lingle like same sex behavior, which sounds

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Speaker 1: like I'm doing some kind of homophobic psa like in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties. But this is you know what it's.

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Speaker 1: This is what it's called in the literature with regards

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Speaker 1: to animals. But yeah, same sex behavior has been observed

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Speaker 1: in over one thy five hundred species, uh, from invertebrates, nematodes, fish, amphibians, reptiles,

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Speaker 1: bird mammals. Honestly, my opinion is that any animal that

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Speaker 1: sexually reproduces, there's going to be same sex behavior. Like

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Speaker 1: I don't I would be much more shocked if you

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Speaker 1: didn't find a species in which this were the case. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So that's that's my opinion. And so you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: this is it's such a thing and kind of like

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Speaker 1: what you're saying earlier, where it's like it is so

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Speaker 1: prevalent that researchers are like, well, is there an evolutionary

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Speaker 1: advantage to this? And you know, it's something where I

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Speaker 1: think it's really important to understand that when we talk

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Speaker 1: about evolutionary advantage, it sounds really good, like this thing

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Speaker 1: where it's like we should be looking for, like we

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Speaker 1: should be striving for evolutionary advantages because that's the good thing.

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Speaker 1: It's like evolution doesn't care about our happiness, it really doesn't.

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Speaker 1: It would be fine if we lived like five days

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Speaker 1: of misery and then explode into a bunch of eggs

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Speaker 1: that make a bunch of more miserable offspring, Like evolution

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Speaker 1: wouldn't care about that, that it would just the most

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Speaker 1: like efficient right exactly, And yet that's not the world

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Speaker 1: that we live in.

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Speaker 2: No, we don't want you don't.

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Speaker 1: Want, yeah, exactly, like you don't want. Like there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff in evolution that is messed up that

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Speaker 1: we would not want to endure just to be evolutionarily

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Speaker 1: advantageous like we that's kind of what's cool when you

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Speaker 1: are a more social, chill species like humans. There are

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Speaker 1: other species too, who I think have this kind of

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Speaker 1: autonomy where you get to be like, actually, I kind

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Speaker 1: of want to enjoy life like that's nice. So but

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Speaker 1: still like it is extremely prevalent to the point where

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Speaker 1: it's like when they're when you're asked like, well, are

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Speaker 1: there are there gay animals, it's like, well, are there

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Speaker 1: not any species that aren't don't have gay animals? I

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Speaker 1: don't think so yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yea yeah. I mean I think we should circle

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Speaker 2: back and like talk about those penguins a little bit,

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Speaker 2: because there's so much to sort of unpack there about

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Speaker 2: the mythology like mythology of penguins. What we know, what

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Speaker 2: we don't know, the history of the story of gay penguins, yes,

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Speaker 2: or the history of the story of the monogamous penguins.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean there are multiple penguin species, right, and

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Speaker 1: they all have their own behaviors, and they are it's

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Speaker 1: pretty common among seabirds to be monogamous at least for

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Speaker 1: one breeding.

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Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah. That's the thing about the that I like

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Speaker 2: to call it the monogamouth is that often what we're

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Speaker 2: seeing is not like lifelong monogamy, but seasonal pair bonding. Right,

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Speaker 2: And recently there have been genetic studies of the DNA

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Speaker 2: of like offspring that actually have revealed that even within

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Speaker 2: pair bonded penguins, sometimes the offspring, the chicks are not

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Speaker 2: genetically linked to the pair bonded father.

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Speaker 1: This isn't but.

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Speaker 2: We're just but we're still raised because there's such a

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Speaker 2: there's so much going on. Yeah, the penguin environments that

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Speaker 2: often eggs are being swapped, one of the two will

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Speaker 2: not return. And so even if there is an advantage

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Speaker 2: to being bonded and to cope parenting, which I think

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Speaker 2: is really what we're talking about here, like the advantage

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Speaker 2: of co parenting, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are

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Speaker 2: solely raising their own genetic offspring, and there's also female

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Speaker 2: female pair bonds happening among penguins, male male pair bonds,

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Speaker 2: and so much more, so much more.

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Speaker 1: Penguin Jerry Springer is absolute chaos. It's just a sea

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Speaker 1: of black and white angry fluff.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, but that's something that Owen and I love

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Speaker 3: to say, which is that penguins just have like amazing

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Speaker 3: pr Like they have an incredible pr team because they

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Speaker 3: have this like palatable for some reason, some of which

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Speaker 3: we're saying here, they have this like palatable, you know,

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Speaker 3: gay story that people can digest and can kind of

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Speaker 3: fold into their version of something that like is palatable

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Speaker 3: in human society.

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Speaker 1: Right, you know, it's gay penguins who got married before

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Speaker 1: having sex and adopted an egg together legally and raising.

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Speaker 2: The egg right respectability.

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Speaker 1: Very respectable penguins.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I mean, which is interesting because then you

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Speaker 2: see like Roy and Silo, the famous gay penguins at

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Speaker 2: the Central Park Zoo, which is a place that Lene

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Speaker 2: and I visited. They're no longer there, but their story

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Speaker 2: became a center point for both the Christian right the

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Speaker 2: focus on the family, as well as the marriage equality

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Speaker 2: movement because both were, like we can project this idea

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Speaker 2: of family values on these penguins. Meanwhile, the penguins are

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Speaker 2: just like doing whatever and are ultimately bisexual and are

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Speaker 2: going to be having all kinds of different sex. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: when we have too rigid of an idea of how

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Speaker 2: we want to relate to interpret and define any animal behavior,

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Speaker 2: of course it's going to come back at us and

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Speaker 2: be like difficult. But if we start looking at like, oh,

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Speaker 2: all of these things are way more complex than we

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Speaker 2: afford them to be, then it becomes really beautiful, and

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Speaker 2: then we give ourselves permission to be more complex.

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Speaker 1: Also, have you looked in a penguin's mouth. Those guys

400
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Speaker 1: are little freaks, they are. It is a sarlac pit

401
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Speaker 1: in there. And don't tell me they do not ever

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Speaker 1: use that for sexual purposes.

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Speaker 2: I mean masturbation. Yes, when sexual solicitation all sorts of things,

404
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Speaker 2: all sorts of things that you don't see represented in

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Speaker 2: March of the Penguin.

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Speaker 3: Right, it is not PC. It is not a PC situation.

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Speaker 1: No, And I mean I think this is this is

408
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Speaker 1: the whole kind of thing with like I remember so much,

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Speaker 1: this idea of like where it felt like there was

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Speaker 1: this attempt to make, you know, especially when it was

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Speaker 1: like in the fight back against homophobia, it was like,

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Speaker 1: but look at the cute penguins, they're also gay, And

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Speaker 1: it's like, on one level, I get that, right, but

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Speaker 1: on the other I think it's like short sighted because

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Speaker 1: you know, first while we don't need penguins to tell

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Speaker 1: us what to do, they're like a foot tall at most, Like,

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Speaker 1: why is the penguin telling me what to do what's

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Speaker 1: right or what's not right? But also but also it's

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Speaker 1: just like you said, it's a reduction of the complexity

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Speaker 1: of it. And it's also like we should be cool

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Speaker 1: with each other other humans in terms of our identities

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Speaker 1: and in terms of you know, our sexuality, not because

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Speaker 1: you know, we see penguins doing it too, but because

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Speaker 1: we should have the emotional intelligence to be like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: these people are doing something that they're okay, look they're

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Speaker 1: happy and cool, great, chill out. I don't know, like

427
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Speaker 1: maybe we should just like chill out about each other.

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Speaker 1: And so by doing this kind of like projecting on them,

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Speaker 1: like well, but they're the penguins are getting married and

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Speaker 1: you know, saying penguin vows to each other about giving

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Speaker 1: them each other fish for the rest of their life

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Speaker 1: and sickness and health. Well, I mean, but they're Noture's

433
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: more complex than that. Uh. And you know, I'm joking,

434
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: jokingly calling them little freaks, but the idea of something

435
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: being weird, you're affectionately calling them little affectionately. But again,

436
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: like for the penguins, it's not taboo. And it's also

437
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: like in terms of penguins, like you know, it's it's

438
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: kind of funny because I think at first researchers would

439
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: try to kind of explain away. It's like, oh, they

440
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: just they're they're confused and they see this penguin and

441
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 1: they think that's a female penguin. They get confused and

442
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: they have sex. It's like no, they're like taking turns

443
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: and there's like they're engaging in group gay sex where

444
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 1: they're taking turns. I think they like it. I think

445
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:42,360
Speaker 1: they're having fun.

446
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 2: Like strategy, you see virtuosity, you see all of these

447
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 2: things that would indicate among many species that this is

448
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 2: not the product of the funnel men. No, not no,

449
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:57,120
Speaker 2: just sort of like whoopsie, Daisy, your way into participating

450
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:58,439
Speaker 2: in like multiple origin.

451
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 1: He slipped down the.

452
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that you know, like that is sort

453
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 2: of tied into like gay panic. Also, I don't want

454
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: to undervalue like how meaningful it can be to be

455
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 2: affirmed by seeing something in nature. It is a sad

456
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 2: reality of our human animal circumstance that we as where

457
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 2: people have been told so many times that we are aberrant,

458
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 2: that we are not part of the design, that evolution

459
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,959
Speaker 2: is something that exists that we don't follow, that we

460
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 2: can't participate in it, and therefore, like nature is not

461
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 2: designed for us. And so I understand and in fact

462
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 2: him called by that impulse to see myself reflected in nature.

463
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,360
Speaker 2: And that's you know, in large part why we're late

464
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 2: and I are making this podcast because we both do

465
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 2: we appreciate the value of that. But then it's like

466
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 2: on the flip side, how do we how do we

467
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 2: get move move past that? How do we like create

468
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 2: a space where we can move past that, we where

469
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 2: we no longer need to be making these like arguments

470
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 2: for our humanity by holding all animals right, But that

471
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,120
Speaker 2: would be wonderful.

472
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 1: Nice if you didn't have to spend so much time

473
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 1: to justifying your existence right.

474
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 2: Right, and we could just be pronghorned sheep, you know,

475
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 2: home home, Homo on the range just like doing their

476
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:30,360
Speaker 2: thing right. And because they're not, they're not arguing about it.

477
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 2: It's the scientists who are observing them who are, like,

478
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 2: what will happen if people know they're queer? They'll project

479
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 2: stigma and shame on these animals and therefore not care

480
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 2: about these animals and like that is because that's what

481
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 2: we do to each other. Yeah, and so let's try

482
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 2: to not do that to animals.

483
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

484
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 3: And that's and that's like a line that we really

485
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 3: are trying to tone the series too, which is not

486
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 3: have the whole thing be like see like they're just

487
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 3: like it's like see, but that that that it's really

488
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 3: it really is this back and forth of like the

489
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 3: beauty of being able to see like ourselves in them.

490
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 3: What can we learn from you know, that kinship and

491
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 3: what what what kind of beauty can be like uh

492
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 3: like elicited from that? And also the fact that like

493
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 3: that's not what this is all about. You know, there's

494
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 3: not some sort of there's not some sort of agenda

495
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 3: in that.

496
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: Ye, it's also really cool. It's just like can we

497
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: tell it's I get frustrated so much, especially when I

498
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: mean on Twitter, which I guess I'm doing this to myself.

499
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: But I see people like oversimplifying biology or it's like, oh, biology,

500
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: so there's like two sexes and it's like, oh my god,

501
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: biology is way more cool than that, it's way more interesting.

502
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 1: You're painting such a boring picture of biology. It's like, yes,

503
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: I obviously care very much about the ridiculous sort of

504
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: culture war bs that you're espousing, but all so secondly,

505
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: I'm offended on behalf of natural science because it's like

506
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: so cool and there's so many interesting things, and when

507
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 1: you project this kind of like rigid you know, I

508
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: guess philosophy onto nature, then you miss so much depth

509
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: and rich to the natural world in terms of animal behavior.

510
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: And it's you know, that is also really terrible, like

511
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: you're making things more boring. Why are you doing that?

512
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 2: Right? A science education could be so incredible, And I

513
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 2: think a lot of why we get into this mess

514
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 2: it's not because the science isn't happening, because like you say,

515
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 2: there is a lot of beautifully nuanced science occurring, but

516
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 2: it's how it's being taught. And I think that like,

517
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 2: once it filters down into how we as like late

518
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 2: people are interacting with it, then it becomes really reduced

519
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 2: so that you know, we can understand it, and then

520
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 2: it ends up falling into these, like you said, Noah's

521
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 2: ark narratives that there is some sort of two by

522
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 2: two binary and that's like the easiest, simplest way, when

523
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 2: in fact, when you start scratching at the surface, you're like, oh,

524
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 2: there's all kinds of studies talking about all kinds of

525
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 2: species that experience sex, gender behavior, pair bonding, family structures,

526
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 2: social structures in like an impressive amount of way, right,

527
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 2: And there's also so much that we can be that

528
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 2: we don't understand, Like you were talking about the about

529
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 2: the spiders and like they're incredible capacities to do things

530
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 2: that we can't do. I think there's so much to

531
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 2: recognizing the differences that's that's a practice of embracing difference

532
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: that I think like we as humans really need when

533
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 2: we start looking at animals and being like, a, there

534
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 2: are similarities, that's cool, but be there's remarkable differences and

535
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 2: I want to celebrate that, and I want to do

536
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 2: that to my other like human animals, and want to

537
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 2: do that to all other animals as well. Exactly bring

538
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:04,719
Speaker 2: that in to not be like I can only talk

539
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 2: about animals if they fit some sort of you know,

540
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 2: narrative that is convenient or useful, often convenient and useful

541
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 2: for like a reprocentric ideology right right, or a heteronormative ideology.

542
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 3: And then also what happens a lot, which we talk

543
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 3: to people about, is that like scientists will not want

544
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 3: to not know. There isn't that space for kind of

545
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 3: wonder and awe and the kind of space in between

546
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 3: of not knowing. So then they fill in the gaps

547
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 3: with kind of their own biases, which is what creates

548
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,959
Speaker 3: these assumptions and putting into binaries, putting into these societal

549
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 3: kind of you know, these these things of saying, well,

550
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 3: this animal is like X, Y, and Z, which only

551
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 3: happens because like we don't actually know. But then they're saying, well,

552
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 3: I think I know, and it's based off my own

553
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 3: assumptions and my own biases, And that's what ends up happening,

554
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 3: like with all of these things where a real answer

555
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 3: is we don't know, and there's just a lot of

556
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 3: discomfort being able to say that in science.

557
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it doesn't publish published. Well, I already I've

558
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: told this joke or a joke before about like where

559
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: in science, like you never published no results. So but

560
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: you have to publish. Yeah, you have to publish.

561
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 2: You have to Yeah, you.

562
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: Have to publish something.

563
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and ideally you're publishing something that will result in

564
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 2: more funding to continue to research and to continue to publish.

565
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 2: And so if you're going to go out on a

566
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 2: limb and start publishing your like copious amounts of gay

567
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 2: animal sex that you're witnessing in you know, among dolphins, like,

568
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 2: that's a risk.

569
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 1: Yeahs so you want yeah, and so you want like

570
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: a result, also a result that's like interesting and or

571
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: respectable because there are so many researchers I think who

572
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: have the same that same idea of like I think

573
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 1: they might just be having fun, and I think that

574
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: they might be it's deeper than this. But then it

575
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 1: is really hard for these kinds of like that more

576
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 1: I guess nuanced discussion to bubble to the surface. It's

577
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 1: a lot easier for a headline to hit the papers

578
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: where it's like gay gene found in fruit flies rather

579
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:23,240
Speaker 1: than fruit flies seem to really enjoy bisexual congo lines. Yes,

580
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 1: you know, so, I think it's it is. It is

581
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: a shame but we are. We did mention earlier Bonobos,

582
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: which I do want to talk about because I think

583
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: they are sort of I mean, correct me if I'm wrong,

584
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: but I feel like they are kind of like the

585
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 1: poster ape for being chill and like hippies, and which

586
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 1: is honestly well deserved. But in a way I think

587
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: that I don't know, I think it's I really appreciate them,

588
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 1: and I think it's a really really interesting example of

589
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: how like this this inter play between like, oh, is

590
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 1: this behavior advantageous or is this behavior for fun? And

591
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,479
Speaker 1: sometimes the answer to that is like yes, like yeah,

592
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: both yes and yeah, and so yeah. Bonobos are great

593
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: ape native to Congolese forests. They're very closely related to us.

594
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: They're you know, our cousins. They are also very closely

595
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 1: related to chimpanzees. But they they look a little bit

596
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: like a chimpanzee, but just kind of like squeeze it

597
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: in a little bit. They're less Yeah, they're a little smaller,

598
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 1: they're more slender, they're not they're not as buff, and

599
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 1: they are generally less aggressive. They have a higher proportion

600
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 1: of peaceful interactions within their troop and with other troops,

601
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: with other groups and they are also pretty equitable when

602
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: it comes to sex, meaning like male and female banobos

603
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 1: kind of have pretty equal standing in society, in their society,

604
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: and I think, like, you know, that's a whole other

605
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: thing too, like in terms of talking about like like

606
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 1: gender equality and anarchical yeah versus patriarchal society, and it

607
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: can be really complicated. Like I think people have this

608
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,320
Speaker 1: idea of lions where it's like you have the lion,

609
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: the male line, who's like the king than all the

610
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: females who are his like subordinate harem, and it's like

611
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 1: that's not really actually the case, Like the females kind

612
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 1: of form a central core to lion society and the

613
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 1: males come and go and yeah, the male right exactly so,

614
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: and also like the idea that male elephants just are

615
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 1: aimless drifters who just come in and mate and don't

616
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 1: actually participate in society, and it's like no, they also

617
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 1: have a complex sort of social life as well. So

618
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 1: it's just yeah, so things can be a lot more complex,

619
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 1: but in general, bonobos are more uh their roles, at

620
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: least like in terms of like whether they are you know,

621
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: the hierarchy. They don't have as much of a hierarchy

622
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 1: compared to say, chimpanzees, and they have a lot of

623
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 1: gay sex like constantly all the time, males and females,

624
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: especially females apparently, but males as well. And they the

625
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: idea that this is sort of I'm gonna tell you

626
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: guys sort of the like scientific explanation of it, and

627
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: then we can just kind of talk about I don't

628
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 1: know what we think, which is like that it is

629
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:41,320
Speaker 1: often done to reaffirm these like social bonds to ease

630
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 1: tensions and reinforce cooperation. Seems to happen more in times

631
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 1: of high competition, and the idea is that this is

632
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 1: because they are trying to kind of reinforce this cooperation,

633
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:57,240
Speaker 1: like okay, everybody, everyone's stressed out, let's have sex and

634
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: everyone can just chill out a little more. And so

635
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: the idea is that it is this kind of socially

636
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: advantageous thing because it just calms everyone down and reaffirms

637
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 1: these like strong bonds between females and also between males,

638
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: and then also between females and males. So it's you

639
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: know which, But I want to hear kind of what

640
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 1: you got, like what your interpretation of both like the

641
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 1: behavior and then also the interpretation of the behavior.

642
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 2: M M hmmm, Yeah, I mean they beautifully have sex

643
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:44,359
Speaker 2: for conflict avoidance or conflict reconciliation to mitigate conflict. They

644
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 2: especially when there is some sort of like aggravating circumstance,

645
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 2: like a scarcity of food or a potential like meeting

646
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:02,240
Speaker 2: of two like clans of Bonova, things that could result

647
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 2: in like adversarial behavior competitive behavior, and that frequently do

648
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 2: result in that behavior among chimpanzees. Instead the bonobos, well,

649
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 2: first play, there's like joy, there's play, and there's a

650
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 2: lot of sex and like a lot of sex. A

651
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 2: sex act is like it's like a handshake thirteen thirteen seconds. Yeah,

652
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 2: it's like so fast. And they got a lot of

653
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,280
Speaker 2: other bonobos to have sex best, so they're just doing

654
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 2: it and like that to me is like a really

655
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 2: beautiful way of, like you said, reinforcing the bonds rather

656
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 2: than like falling into these more dangerous impulses of like

657
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 2: aggression and violence. And there's like sure there's scientific reasons

658
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,320
Speaker 2: for that. There's like hormonal changes that happen, there's like

659
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 2: oxytocin there.

660
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, they like look at the peat which I love

661
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: this that like it's like, you know what, we gotta

662
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: we gotta watch these binobos wait until they have sex,

663
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: and then wait until they have peep right after sex,

664
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 1: collect that pee and study it.

665
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 2: Which I mean, let's also scientists a group of people

666
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 2: who are probably way more kinky than we're willing to admit.

667
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 2: You know, I think scientists spend a lot more time

668
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 2: working with like gay animal p than I do.

669
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 3: So but this is like the anti alpha you know,

670
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,760
Speaker 3: dominance narrative right here. You know, like if you're looking

671
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 3: for it, it's like this is literally to like alleviate

672
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,800
Speaker 3: that tension, alleviate that conflict, and to say like, okay,

673
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 3: things are getting intense, Like what do we do, Like

674
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 3: we're not trying to get agro, we're not trying to fight.

675
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 2: Let's have sex.

676
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 3: And you know, you can see that you can make

677
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 3: an argument for evolutionary purposes for that for you know,

678
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 3: survival of the fitness in a different way, or you

679
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,240
Speaker 3: can say that this is how they're keeping their communities thriving.

680
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 3: And it's really really interesting and it's just another example

681
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 3: of non reproductive sex, which is a huge thing that

682
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 3: we explore. Just what are all different ways that you know,

683
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 3: non human animals are having sex where you know, the

684
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 3: be all and all purpose is to not you know,

685
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 3: make babies. And sometimes it's we can't figure it out.

686
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 3: It must just be because they want to do it,

687
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 3: and sometimes like in this because it feels good. And

688
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 3: then sometimes like in this example, there's this other reason

689
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 3: which is really fascinating.

690
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that it's I think that sometimes

691
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: when it comes to animals, we sort of unlike, like,

692
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: what is the difference between like a human doing something

693
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 1: because it's fun and it feels good or it provokes

694
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:50,839
Speaker 1: some profound emotion from having sex to looking at a painting, right,

695
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 1: and an animal doing something like that. And then you

696
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,240
Speaker 1: can say like, well, in human society, museums and sex

697
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:02,280
Speaker 1: also strengthen our social and make our societies more peaceful

698
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 1: and more functional, which increases the reproductive success of everybody.

699
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 1: And so you can say the same thing about Bonobo's

700
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: you can say the same thing about your pet dog

701
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 1: or cat. Right, So this this distinction between like like, oh,

702
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 1: it's like over evolutionariizing something that's not a word, but

703
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 1: I need where it's where. Of course evolution it is

704
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 1: the thing that is driving so many changes in behaviors,

705
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 1: and of course it's absolutely a factor in so many

706
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: behaviors and so many things. But also like at a

707
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 1: certain point, well, this bonobo isn't this other bonobo because

708
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 1: of fitness. It's because he likes it and he's having

709
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 1: a good time, and it doesn't in that specific case,

710
00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily make that bonobo moral less fit. Sometimes

711
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 1: it can be neutral, sometimes it can be good. Right,

712
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 1: So it's like, so a lot of these behaviors are

713
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 1: you know, I think that the fear of over anthropomorphizing

714
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: animals can sometimes result in actually taking away autonomy from them.

715
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 2: In reductive analysis, Yeah, for sure, I mean. And a

716
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:23,359
Speaker 2: good example that we discussed in the podcast is greade

717
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 2: apes masturbating and making sex toys, because this is not

718
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 2: only non reproductive sex, but it's also like non social.

719
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 2: It's like simply about figuring out how to stimulate yourself.

720
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 2: Which doesn't mean that it doesn't have like biological advantages,

721
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 2: because we do know that like orgasming, like floods of hormones,

722
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 2: these things can make you feel better emotionally, psychologically, biologically,

723
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 2: But really it's like it's centered on pleasure, and I think,

724
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:06,720
Speaker 2: like we are really oh like, we are very distracted

725
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 2: by the need and the imperative to find an evolutionary

726
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:16,319
Speaker 2: reason behind everything that we don't allow for the nuances

727
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 2: and for these other activities that do serve a purpose,

728
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 2: right that just isn't a reproductive purpose right exactly?

729
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 1: Which is you know it kind of that makes me

730
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 1: think of the example you guys mentioned dolphins earlier, and

731
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 1: that's that's a pretty you know, that's an example of like,

732
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 1: male bottlenose dolphins will often form these groups of two

733
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 1: or three unrelated males who use sex to strengthen their

734
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:49,919
Speaker 1: social bonds, and they will hang out, they'll have sex

735
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 1: with each other, and they will also have sex with females,

736
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 1: and it's often described as this. They're basically forming a

737
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 1: group that is cohesive, cooperative, and resistant to say, like

738
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 1: another male dolphin that would try to bully them or

739
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,280
Speaker 1: say it might increase their reproductive success with a female

740
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 1: dolphin because the female is attracted to this group of

741
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 1: dolphins and also they have a number of them, so

742
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,280
Speaker 1: then if another male comes and tries to like chase

743
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 1: them away, they can chase that male away because there's

744
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 1: strength and numbers. But like, you know, we can't really

745
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: get inside of a dolphin's head and know for sure

746
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: what they're thinking, right, Like, So while this may have

747
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 1: I think it certainly does seem to have some advantages

748
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: for these dolphins, but I think like they also just

749
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 1: enjoy it, right, Dolphins are really really intelligent. They're really social.

750
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: So like if you can like hang with your buds,

751
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 1: have some sex, I don't know, I think I think

752
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 1: they're having a good time, like dolphins are.

753
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 3: Sometimes, they're definitely having a good time.

754
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 4: There's no question about that. There's no question of dolphins

755
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 4: trying to get so much vocalization like they I feel like, yeah,

756
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 4: there's so many animals that like do the best that

757
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:12,839
Speaker 4: they can to let us know that they are having

758
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 4: a good.

759
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like they'll so dolphins will try to sometimes like

760
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 1: gently chew toxic fish and the ideas that they might

761
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: get a little bit of a high from it or

762
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 1: at least some kind of interesting sensation, and so they're

763
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 1: just like, well, that's interesting. I'm gonna nibble that. A

764
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 1: lot of animals eat fermented berries, which you know, we

765
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:34,799
Speaker 1: could argue like, well, you know, maybe it.

766
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:35,760
Speaker 2: Has their wax wings.

767
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, they get drunk and we could argue that, like, well,

768
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 1: it could be accidental. It could be because they like

769
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,399
Speaker 1: you know, it's like has this high density of sort

770
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: of nutritional content because it's fermented. But you know, a

771
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,439
Speaker 1: lot of cases it seems like they're kind of having fun.

772
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, like the chemistry among mammals, like

773
00:46:55,640 --> 00:47:00,359
Speaker 2: brain chemistry, like neurochemistry is not that divergent, like right,

774
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 2: we are, and these are things that naturally occur in

775
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 2: the wild, these plants. So like if humans at some

776
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 2: point ended up discovering them and eating them, obviously animals

777
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 2: have been as well. They have like they're very adept

778
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 2: at identifying like what you can and can't eat and

779
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 2: what the impacts are. So definitely we're not exceptional when

780
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 2: it comes to loving sex and drugs. Yeah, like we're

781
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 2: just not and like singing and all these other like

782
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:31,800
Speaker 2: indicators of pleasure and culture honestly of society of connections.

783
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:33,839
Speaker 2: Dolphins are a great example of all of that.

784
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 1: Just partake in fermented berries responsibly, yes, definitely, don't swim

785
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 1: and chew on toxic puffer fish.

786
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 2: Do you know about dolphin goosing? The sex act goosing?

787
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,319
Speaker 1: Okay, no, remind.

788
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:56,919
Speaker 2: Me so it's when one It particularly occurs among male

789
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 2: male sexual interactions between bottlenose dolphins. One male will stick

790
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 2: his beak into the interior like the back genital slit

791
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 2: of another male and like while in there, because they

792
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 2: have slits that like a fallas can come out of

793
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:18,839
Speaker 2: sort of multipurpose slits while in there will like make

794
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 2: humming vibrating sounds, blow bubbles. But also the part that

795
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 2: feels strikes me is just incredibly joyous and beautiful. And

796
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 2: I will admit to a certain amount of jealousy of

797
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 2: They will push each other through the water, They'll take

798
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 2: each other on these like excursions being like and like

799
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 2: push each other around in this like it like what

800
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 2: what purpose does this, sir? I don't want to know.

801
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: I just don't ride.

802
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 2: Yes, they are just doing mustache rides. They are That

803
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 2: is for fun. That is something they invented for each

804
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 2: other to give each other pleasure. And you're like, what

805
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 2: is the one that's doing it? Like what are they

806
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 2: receiving there? Receiving the pleasure of the recipient, which is

807
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 2: like very fascinating.

808
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, which even and we think like, well, dolphins are

809
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 1: super super smart, so okay, maybe not so surprising they

810
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 1: do this, but bats like give kunnelingis.

811
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's love it. And you know, scientists are like,

812
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 2: well there's nutrition in the semen.

813
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 1: And it's like I don't know.

814
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, yes that's awesome and that's awesome, but like

815
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 2: which came first? Also, like when did where they like,

816
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 2: this feels good because we have erogenous zones that it

817
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 2: can be stimulated that have an impact, and so we

818
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:43,800
Speaker 2: find you know, we speaking of just like greater creatures,

819
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 2: creatures find ways to stimulate each other's erogenous zones and

820
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 2: then if maybe it's a byproduct that they discover. Like

821
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 2: also there's like a nutritional advantage to consuming the sweat

822
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 2: the runoff minerals to consuming the semen and what's in that.

823
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 2: But I don't don't know if they were like I

824
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 2: forgot to take my multi multi vitamin today, Like, bro,

825
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,240
Speaker 2: you down, Like I don't think that that's.

826
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 1: What they were, bro, Yeah, feeling a little hungry. I Mean.

827
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 1: The thing for me is that bats are highly social

828
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: and one of the more chill social species, right, Like

829
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 1: there's not a huge amount of conflict and violence. Sure,

830
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 1: there's like some squabbles, of course, there will be, but

831
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 1: they don't. They're like, you know, and when I say bats,

832
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: there's so many species of bats, but this is pretty

833
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:37,280
Speaker 1: general to bats that are our colony. Bats that will

834
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 1: roost together in large numbers. They have allo parenting where

835
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 1: they you know, kind of watch after each other's young.

836
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 1: There's behavior especially in bats that, like vampire bats, are

837
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 1: actually very very like rare. In terms of species of bats,

838
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 1: there's only like a couple species of vampire two or

839
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 1: three species of vampire bats, whereas the rest of them

840
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 1: are either insectivores, nectar wars, or frugivores. But for vampire

841
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,439
Speaker 1: bats and other bats where meals are kind of hard

842
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 1: to get and their metabolism is really fast, they'll share

843
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:13,879
Speaker 1: meals with each other. And it's kind of described as

844
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 1: this like social safety net where it's like, if you

845
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 1: miss a meal, your neighbor who you have had it like,

846
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 1: it's your friends, right, Usually a stranger won't do it.

847
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 1: But if you're friends with people and you've shared before,

848
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 1: you're also going to get shared back with. And so

849
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:32,439
Speaker 1: for me, like that indicates to me with in terms

850
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,839
Speaker 1: of bat sexuality, that it is seems to be all

851
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: the components are aligning to me that this is a

852
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 1: behavior that sure there's probably some like there could be

853
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 1: some you know advantage to it, right, like, but it

854
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 1: could also be they're highly social, They're quite friendly with

855
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 1: each other, and so this like giving and receiving of

856
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: pleasure with the bats is something that they enjoy and

857
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,720
Speaker 1: helps them get along. And it's just you know, good vibes,

858
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 1: good bet vibe.

859
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and like you said, that's very common among many

860
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 2: social animals. And I think that we don't want to

861
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 2: think about ourselves as being interdependently linked, about you know,

862
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 2: being heard animals, about being social creatures because of this

863
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:18,799
Speaker 2: like a particularly American idea of individualism, and you know,

864
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:23,320
Speaker 2: like we very taken to heart the mythos of survival

865
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:25,840
Speaker 2: of the fittest, when in fact, like we would be

866
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:33,720
Speaker 2: when they're stronger forms of community care, community childcare, mutual aid,

867
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:36,879
Speaker 2: like we are going to survive more. Like I live

868
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 2: in New Orleans and there's so many social aid and

869
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:42,280
Speaker 2: pleasure clubs, and it makes so much sense that social

870
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 2: aid and pleasure are put together, because if you're going

871
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 2: to be there for each other in acts of survival,

872
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 2: being there for each other in acts of joy and

873
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 2: exuberance is also really important, and we do see that

874
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 2: reflected among so many other socially oriented mammals.

875
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, So that's.

876
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,280
Speaker 2: Are some of the earliest ones that were like witnessed

877
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 2: by Western scientists. Those accounts go way back. People are

878
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 2: like bats are doing it.

879
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,439
Speaker 1: Maybe that's where the sexy vampire came from. We see

880
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:17,320
Speaker 1: bets doing this and we're like, man, vampires, vampires gotta

881
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 1: be kinky, even though even though most bets are not vampires.

882
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I really do deeply believe that the

883
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:29,880
Speaker 2: idea of the sexy vampire does come from like sex

884
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 2: morality and the fear of having sex of STI is

885
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 2: like sexually transmitted infections and things like not knowing about it,

886
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 2: not wanting to talk about it, you know.

887
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:48,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's also like it that there's the fear,

888
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 1: but there's also the allure, which is why like vampires

889
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:54,360
Speaker 1: became very sexual topic.

890
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:57,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, a very New Orleans talk.

891
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 1: Whenever, whenever we whenever, we're like, wait, was that the

892
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 1: there was a Is that where there were the like

893
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 1: vampire facials or is that not? Is that Florida?

894
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, I'm gonna need you to say more.

895
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:16,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, a little bit of a tangent.

896
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:18,760
Speaker 2: You're gonna throw off my google's orchest.

897
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:24,320
Speaker 1: Okay, it's I I promise it's well, no, I can't

898
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 1: promise anything. So it's it actually has nothing to do

899
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 1: with sex, but it's like a well, okay, I can't

900
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: say that for sure. It's where they like where they

901
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 1: like take some of your blood and then like put

902
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:44,080
Speaker 1: it back on your face. But like it's I get

903
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:45,760
Speaker 1: or like inject it back on your.

904
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 2: Is it topical because I've definitely heard about like plasma injection.

905
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:51,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think it's like I don't think it's topical.

906
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:53,239
Speaker 1: I think it's like they they take some of your

907
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:55,439
Speaker 1: blood and then use like micro needles to like put

908
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:56,399
Speaker 1: it back in your face.

909
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 2: That's specific to New Orleans, okay, But New Orleans you

910
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 2: can go to like Bourbon Street and get like a

911
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:05,319
Speaker 2: blood bag, and it's just like the cheapest form of

912
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 2: red wine.

913
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 1: Is it is New Orleans. I just didn't know that

914
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:11,360
Speaker 1: New Orleans is like vampire Central. Is that where all

915
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 1: the vami?

916
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 2: It really is and for many reasons, and part of

917
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 2: it is an rice in the popularity of interview with

918
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 2: a vampire, but it also has to do with just

919
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 2: like the high frequency of transmissible diseases in the first

920
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 2: several hundred years at being a place that was like

921
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 2: specifically inflicted by tuberculosis and yellow fever and not understanding

922
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,239
Speaker 2: what these vectors were and it being like a very

923
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 2: Catholic place. Was it like the Mosquito so a very

924
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 2: wanton place. Yeah, mosquito prevalence's blow sea levels, so like

925
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 2: so many things were like linking that and then and

926
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 2: then you throw in sex morality and it's like, oh, people,

927
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,920
Speaker 2: people who are out at night are more likely to

928
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 2: get these diseases. Maybe it's because they're exposed to vectors

929
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 2: like mosquitoes, but maybe it's also because of their activities.

930
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 2: What are they doing, Like if they were only leaving

931
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 2: the house to go to church, maybe they're not going

932
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,920
Speaker 2: to be getting yellow feet, so they must. So you

933
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 2: start to see these it must be a.

934
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 1: Hair of sexy vampires. I'll second on each other's but

935
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 1: I swear like purit and logic is the kinkiest thing.

936
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 1: Like I don't think, I don't.

937
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,200
Speaker 3: Like they come up they come up with that, yea

938
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 3: yea yah, yeah.

939
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:29,799
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah yeah yeah right, And that's something that we

940
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 2: came up with we came across in this where it's

941
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:37,840
Speaker 2: like scientists trying to explain, like gay sex have provided

942
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 2: us with so many incredible reasons to participate in gay sex,

943
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 2: and then like the only reason that they've given us

944
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 2: to participate in like hetero sex is to have babies.

945
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 2: But then they're like they're like, okay, well, social for

946
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 2: like social bonding, nutritional aids, Like there's so many reasons

947
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:00,399
Speaker 2: why gay sex is good for you.

948
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: Okay, great, sounds like it sounds like science has a

949
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 1: pro gay agenda.

950
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they don't know you

951
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:10,640
Speaker 2: heard it here.

952
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:12,839
Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break, and then when

953
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 1: we get back, we're going to talk about sex and

954
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 1: gender in the Animal Kingdom. Okay, so we have talked

955
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 1: about sexuality, and I do also want to talk about

956
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 1: sex and gender because I think like the sort of again,

957
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:29,280
Speaker 1: I spend too much time on Twitter because I think

958
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:34,600
Speaker 1: I'm masochist, and like there's always this conversation about like, well,

959
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 1: biology says there's two sexes, and so anyone who says

960
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 1: any different isn't listening to biology. And I've already explained

961
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 1: why this argument is so frustrating in terms of how

962
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 1: it's so it so simplifies both the human experience and

963
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 1: also biology, Like it you don't understand biology, you're also

964
00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 1: making biology sound like something really boring and simplistic, and

965
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 1: it's not. But I think, you know, it is like

966
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 1: we can definitely talk about like examples in the natural

967
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:13,760
Speaker 1: world and how sex can be very fluid, what it

968
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 1: means for there to be even gender in the natural world.

969
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 1: But also just like again the thing that we've talked

970
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 1: about before, the idea that something like that there is

971
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:28,479
Speaker 1: something that is natural and biology driven and then that's

972
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:31,440
Speaker 1: how we should shape our society after those it's such

973
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 1: a weird like to me, that's that is so backwards, right,

974
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 1: where sure we can understand things about biology, but litting

975
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:43,840
Speaker 1: that determine how we live our lives, right, and how

976
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 1: we accept other people, how what we want in a

977
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 1: community of people. Is kind of strange because it's like

978
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 1: I thought, the whole point of civilization again is underpants

979
00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 1: and eyeglasses. I can't actually think of any other reasons

980
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 1: we have civilization. They've been underpants and eyeglasses. But you know,

981
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are other good stuff too. Vampire facial

982
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 1: vampire facial right, yah, clearly exactly. So clownfish is that

983
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:20,400
Speaker 1: they are like the kind of uh, I think like

984
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 1: poster boys and girls of sex fluidity in nature because

985
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:30,479
Speaker 1: they're very charismatic species. Right. But this happens for like, uh,

986
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of animals have this. It's called

987
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 1: sequential hermaphroditism. Uh. It's basically when an animal you can

988
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 1: have animals that are hermaphrodites, meaning that they have both

989
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 1: male and female genitals, and they can both have female

990
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 1: biological processes or male biological processes at the same time,

991
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:57,520
Speaker 1: but in sequential hermaphroditism. I gotta hate that that word is.

992
00:59:58,520 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 2: I hate the Greeks you're doing.

993
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it really is. It is. When it is,

994
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:08,439
Speaker 1: it's something that happens in a specific sequence. So it's

995
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 1: like you start off as one sex and then become

996
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 1: another sex. And sometimes it's under specific it's usually under

997
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 1: specific conditions. So for clownfish, the classic example, you have

998
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:22,320
Speaker 1: a bunch of male clownfish, and you have a dominant

999
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:27,520
Speaker 1: female and a male who is her breeding partner, and

1000
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 1: then you have the submissive males who you know kind

1001
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 1: of like are in this like I guess royal Court

1002
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 1: of clownfish. And then if something happens to the female

1003
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:42,680
Speaker 1: a uh, the breeding partner of the female actually then

1004
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:46,440
Speaker 1: becomes the next female uh. And then and one of

1005
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:50,360
Speaker 1: the other submissive males then becomes her breeding partner. And

1006
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:53,440
Speaker 1: it's just sort of this like it's kind of an exchange.

1007
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 1: And again, like when we talk about I feel like

1008
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:59,480
Speaker 1: it we could spend a huge conversation talking about dominant

1009
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:03,600
Speaker 1: and submissive of in nature and how that's not like

1010
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 1: the idea of being alpha and this kind of the idea,

1011
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 1: and like a lot of these hierarchies are not so

1012
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:15,000
Speaker 1: much like brutal tyrannies of sex and more like, hey,

1013
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 1: we kind of have this system. You guys are younger,

1014
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 1: you'll get your turn, you know, and like as sort

1015
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 1: of swapping out kind of thing where you, you know, you'll.

1016
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 2: Have what if we thought about it more about like

1017
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 2: wisdom or experience and not about force or power.

1018
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 1: And sometimes it can be literally about force and power

1019
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:36,920
Speaker 1: because you know, it really depends on the animal, but

1020
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 1: often it isn't. But the language that we use to

1021
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 1: describe it, I think often has this connotation. But that's

1022
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 1: not necessarily doesn't really capture the nuance of it.

1023
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like you said, there are lots of animals

1024
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:58,040
Speaker 2: that exhibit multiple kinds of reproductive anatomy that are intersex

1025
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:03,440
Speaker 2: colne fish first, sure, but also like larger species like

1026
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:09,560
Speaker 2: grizzly bears will actually develop later in life like a

1027
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:14,520
Speaker 2: functioning pallas while maintaining a functioning birthing canal. So there's

1028
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:21,240
Speaker 2: like different ways that we can see variation within like

1029
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:24,520
Speaker 2: sexual anatomy, and there's also different ways that we can

1030
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:30,480
Speaker 2: see variation within gender and gendered behavior and also like

1031
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:33,400
Speaker 2: the gendered the idea of a gender behavior to your

1032
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:35,640
Speaker 2: point about like what is alpha? What is beta? Like

1033
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 2: this is so much of that is coming from us

1034
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 2: looking to animals and only identifying certain things and not

1035
01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:45,680
Speaker 2: really talking about like the larger social context or like

1036
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:48,040
Speaker 2: is are we only seeing a little bit of dominance

1037
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:50,920
Speaker 2: behavior in this one moment, but like what is the reality?

1038
01:02:51,160 --> 01:02:54,880
Speaker 2: Is this an you know, writ large across the species

1039
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:57,680
Speaker 2: or is it just those two animals? So it does

1040
01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 2: get really complex because it's like really in you know, individualized,

1041
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:05,360
Speaker 2: also talking about like what is the gendered experience or

1042
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:09,440
Speaker 2: behavior of this one animal? But certainly there's so many

1043
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:14,960
Speaker 2: examples of diversity in animal on both counts, both like

1044
01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:21,160
Speaker 2: small little creatures existing in the sea that have multiple

1045
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:24,400
Speaker 2: forms of reproductive anatomy and can like jettison one or

1046
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:27,439
Speaker 2: the other based on like what is useful at the time.

1047
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:31,520
Speaker 2: And then you have like hyenas which develop phallasies. All

1048
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:34,080
Speaker 2: the female hyenas develop fallacies that they.

1049
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:35,720
Speaker 1: See and give birth through which.

1050
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:39,760
Speaker 2: And give birth through them exactly, which like grizzly bears

1051
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:43,000
Speaker 2: can do as well. Yes, have been documented. So it's

1052
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 2: like the truth is like there are so many examples

1053
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:54,040
Speaker 2: that we just don't look to, we don't acknowledge because

1054
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:56,480
Speaker 2: it's easier to say that just because something is like

1055
01:03:56,640 --> 01:04:02,160
Speaker 2: maybe more frequent, doesn't mean that it is the default

1056
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:05,800
Speaker 2: or the only right, like it confused like a frequency

1057
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:10,520
Speaker 2: of observation as meaning that it is the sole observation,

1058
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:13,040
Speaker 2: where in fact, you know there is there are some

1059
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:16,880
Speaker 2: species that have a higher frequency of same sex sexual

1060
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:21,240
Speaker 2: behavior than like heterosexual sexual behavior, and then there are

1061
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:24,080
Speaker 2: some species that have a very low frequency, but it's

1062
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 2: still there and it's still worth acknowledging as part of

1063
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 2: the full picture of what that experience of that species is, right,

1064
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 2: And that's the same with it comes to gender and sex.

1065
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 3: Right, which is also this is all also within the

1066
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:40,800
Speaker 3: framework of there being two sexes, which there aren't, right,

1067
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:44,040
Speaker 3: So it's also still kind of saying, well, this exists.

1068
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 3: That it's also still thinking about any of this as

1069
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:51,959
Speaker 3: some sort of aberration within the concept of there being

1070
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:55,000
Speaker 3: two sexes, which there are more than two sexes, which

1071
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:58,040
Speaker 3: we all know, but it's still kind of it's still

1072
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 3: kind of thinking of it within that that idea that

1073
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:06,000
Speaker 3: there are these things that exist outside of as opposed

1074
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 3: to there are just more than two sexes. You know,

1075
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:13,640
Speaker 3: like even us having this conversation, there's a little bit

1076
01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 3: of that happening.

1077
01:05:15,360 --> 01:05:17,440
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, there is. Thank you for pointing that out.

1078
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:20,680
Speaker 1: Absolutely, it's very hard to get outside of because we

1079
01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 1: live in a society we're in like the fish bowl,

1080
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:25,560
Speaker 1: and then you're sort of trying to be like, well,

1081
01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:28,240
Speaker 1: let me take a step outside this fishful for a

1082
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:30,960
Speaker 1: second and like look at it. It's it can be

1083
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:32,280
Speaker 1: tricky especially.

1084
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:35,400
Speaker 2: When you especially when you're like deeply in the papers,

1085
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:38,320
Speaker 2: like and the research and you're like, Okay, I'm trying

1086
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:41,560
Speaker 2: to understand this from this perspective, and then like begin

1087
01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:43,840
Speaker 2: to think about it from that perspective, even if it's

1088
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:45,520
Speaker 2: contradictory to like lived.

1089
01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:48,760
Speaker 3: Experience, right right, right, because I know that.

1090
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 2: To not be true for me. But then you're like,

1091
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:54,880
Speaker 2: right right, like I'm trying to understand how it's being

1092
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:58,000
Speaker 2: presented to me, and then you start adapting that language,

1093
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:00,240
Speaker 2: and then it becomes this echo chamber and the sort

1094
01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:03,800
Speaker 2: of self fulfilling prophecy in that way. Yes, you're like, Okay,

1095
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:08,760
Speaker 2: I'm glad that I can find examples of derivation and

1096
01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:12,600
Speaker 2: like and celebrate that. And then it's like, wait, it's

1097
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:13,120
Speaker 2: actually not.

1098
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 1: It just is, right, right, I mean, like it is.

1099
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:16,200
Speaker 2: It just is how it is.

1100
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:19,400
Speaker 1: I mean it's kind of like how there's this example

1101
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:23,640
Speaker 1: of whiptail lizards in New Mexico and we kind of

1102
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:26,400
Speaker 1: myself included, I kind of see them as like it's

1103
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:30,800
Speaker 1: a bunch of these like basically like Amazonian females, right,

1104
01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:37,160
Speaker 1: who reproduce asexually. Uh, and they they do they do mate,

1105
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 1: but they don't they don't mate in order to exchange

1106
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:43,320
Speaker 1: genetic information. They mate in order to kind of encourage

1107
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:47,120
Speaker 1: each other to produce a hormone that helps with reproduction.

1108
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:51,080
Speaker 1: But the sex is entirely clonal. It is just their

1109
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:56,240
Speaker 1: own genes that are being recombined to create offspring. But

1110
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:58,760
Speaker 1: the thing is like we think of them right as

1111
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:03,920
Speaker 1: like females, but they also have their triploid so they

1112
01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:08,040
Speaker 1: have three sets of chromosomes that they inherited from a mutation.

1113
01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:13,400
Speaker 1: And so it's it's interesting where it's like, Okay, so

1114
01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:17,360
Speaker 1: now they have these three sets of chromosomes and there

1115
01:07:17,960 --> 01:07:20,240
Speaker 1: they a sexually reproduced, they all mate with each other.

1116
01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:23,600
Speaker 1: We don't really see them as a different sex outside

1117
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:27,400
Speaker 1: of the binary. We see them as female, which is

1118
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:30,520
Speaker 1: to me just kind of interesting because it's it's you know,

1119
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:33,680
Speaker 1: it is like if we had a society perhaps in

1120
01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:37,080
Speaker 1: which we didn't have such a strict binary, we may

1121
01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:39,760
Speaker 1: see this as like, hey, this is another type of sex,

1122
01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:43,000
Speaker 1: right where you have a A A, you know, this

1123
01:07:43,240 --> 01:07:47,800
Speaker 1: entire species where they have essentially evolved this third sex

1124
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:52,880
Speaker 1: that has three chromosomes and recombines them or something like that. Right.

1125
01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:56,320
Speaker 1: So it's kind of this perspective of like and certainly

1126
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:58,640
Speaker 1: one that I fall that I fall into all the

1127
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:00,480
Speaker 1: time because like I think about, like, yeah, these are

1128
01:08:00,680 --> 01:08:04,600
Speaker 1: Amazonians who are like popping out clones, which I think

1129
01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:07,040
Speaker 1: is how Wonder Woman was made. I don't actually follow

1130
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:13,000
Speaker 1: comics too much. I don't know how it works on Themyscira.

1131
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:19,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, but yeah, exactly. That's such an excellent point, like

1132
01:08:19,080 --> 01:08:26,200
Speaker 2: this is an example of just yet another sex that exists. Yeah, yeah,

1133
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:29,520
Speaker 2: I mean similarly, like there's been a lot of examples

1134
01:08:30,200 --> 01:08:34,639
Speaker 2: of late among I'm gonna watch the pronunciation of this word.

1135
01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:41,040
Speaker 1: Welcome to my showmorphism. Yes, so good. You said it

1136
01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:42,320
Speaker 1: and I didn't have to say that word.

1137
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:46,800
Speaker 2: And yeah. The way that it's talked about is like

1138
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:50,760
Speaker 2: this is a combination of the two sexes or the

1139
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:53,479
Speaker 2: two genders, and you're like, or it's just another thing,

1140
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:57,439
Speaker 2: Like that's incredible. Also, it's because it is. It is

1141
01:08:57,479 --> 01:09:00,960
Speaker 2: another thing. It's not just a like to be like

1142
01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:04,559
Speaker 2: non binary is to be like a perfect amount of

1143
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:05,280
Speaker 2: the binary.

1144
01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:08,240
Speaker 1: Right. Well, it's kind of funny because it's like it's like,

1145
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:11,479
Speaker 1: there's a binary except for all these exceptions. It's like,

1146
01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:14,000
Speaker 1: so not a binary, right.

1147
01:09:14,280 --> 01:09:14,919
Speaker 2: Not a binary?

1148
01:09:15,160 --> 01:09:16,000
Speaker 1: Not a binary?

1149
01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:16,160
Speaker 3: No.

1150
01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:20,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. Gynander morphs are really interesting too, because there it

1151
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:24,120
Speaker 1: happens in I think it's specifically because of the way

1152
01:09:24,200 --> 01:09:28,720
Speaker 1: that the chromosomes work for butterflies, other insects and birds, like,

1153
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:31,519
Speaker 1: we don't really see this much in mammals, and that's

1154
01:09:31,560 --> 01:09:37,920
Speaker 1: because birds have chromosomes that are unique in terms of

1155
01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:41,080
Speaker 1: like like unique from mammals, and so it allows for

1156
01:09:41,400 --> 01:09:48,960
Speaker 1: asymmetrical gynandromorphy. Look big word you have where you have

1157
01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:52,760
Speaker 1: one side that looks let's say female, and one side

1158
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:55,599
Speaker 1: that looks let's say male. But you know it is

1159
01:09:55,720 --> 01:09:59,760
Speaker 1: because they're you know, this is not something that would

1160
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:02,920
Speaker 1: necess really happen in a mammal because of these specific

1161
01:10:02,920 --> 01:10:06,920
Speaker 1: ways in which like bird genes can combine. And this

1162
01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:11,720
Speaker 1: also means that birds can change sex sometimes just spontaneously

1163
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:16,160
Speaker 1: for seemingly no reason. We don't know if there's a reason.

1164
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:21,160
Speaker 1: But and then also birds can occasionally have parthenogenesis where

1165
01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:25,479
Speaker 1: they you know, basically don't need to exactly vultures, but

1166
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:28,920
Speaker 1: also chickens, it's hard to know. It's hard to know

1167
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:31,280
Speaker 1: because we don't a lot of these things we observe

1168
01:10:31,320 --> 01:10:35,320
Speaker 1: in chickens. Why because we have so many freaking chickens around.

1169
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:38,559
Speaker 1: We surround ourselves with chickens, so we see it in chickens,

1170
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:41,240
Speaker 1: but it's probably happening in a lot of speech. And

1171
01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:43,599
Speaker 1: we also the reason we see it in vultures, is

1172
01:10:43,600 --> 01:10:46,320
Speaker 1: because they're so a lot of these species are so endangered.

1173
01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:50,280
Speaker 1: We observe them very careful. Yeah, we're constantly, Yeah, we're

1174
01:10:50,360 --> 01:10:53,840
Speaker 1: monitoring their breeding, we're taking these genetics, we're taking these

1175
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:57,479
Speaker 1: blood samples from them, right because we're tracking them making

1176
01:10:57,560 --> 01:10:59,840
Speaker 1: sure that their population is secure. And so that's how

1177
01:10:59,840 --> 01:11:02,560
Speaker 1: we catch that. But this could be happening, you know,

1178
01:11:02,640 --> 01:11:05,160
Speaker 1: much more frequently than we think. And so the whole

1179
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:08,920
Speaker 1: idea of it being sort of like, well, you know,

1180
01:11:09,120 --> 01:11:14,040
Speaker 1: it's it's this, It is this like exception to the binar,

1181
01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:17,200
Speaker 1: which again is kind of like doesn't really make sense,

1182
01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:22,360
Speaker 1: but it's because these these animals, like birds, butterflies, these

1183
01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:26,479
Speaker 1: other insects have this unique well not unique to them,

1184
01:11:26,520 --> 01:11:32,200
Speaker 1: but different from our kind of uh of chromosome that

1185
01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:35,880
Speaker 1: allows for this. And so it's like this idea, like

1186
01:11:35,960 --> 01:11:38,280
Speaker 1: the whole thing where you frequently hear it's like well

1187
01:11:38,439 --> 01:11:41,840
Speaker 1: x y is male and xx is female, and it's like, okay,

1188
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:44,640
Speaker 1: but that's not how it is for birds, uh, and

1189
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:47,200
Speaker 1: that's not how it is. And like also that's not

1190
01:11:47,240 --> 01:11:49,559
Speaker 1: how it is for humans too, like and so like

1191
01:11:49,640 --> 01:11:52,120
Speaker 1: if you if you can have all these counter examples.

1192
01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:56,640
Speaker 1: Then it's like, well, maybe we should understand that this

1193
01:11:56,680 --> 01:12:00,479
Speaker 1: is more complicated than you know, something that you learn

1194
01:12:00,640 --> 01:12:04,200
Speaker 1: in third grade. I don't know, I don't remember what grade.

1195
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:10,080
Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, yeah. And there's examples of animals that

1196
01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:14,600
Speaker 2: like do what scientists calls biomimicry, which is like a

1197
01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:19,439
Speaker 2: difficult idea to swallow because it's sort of like proposes

1198
01:12:19,479 --> 01:12:21,439
Speaker 2: a certain amount of deception or something. But they'll like

1199
01:12:21,479 --> 01:12:26,479
Speaker 2: produce hormones and pheromones not associated with the sex that

1200
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:30,200
Speaker 2: they this animal has been assigned, and you know, to

1201
01:12:30,240 --> 01:12:31,680
Speaker 2: try to figure out like why would they do this,

1202
01:12:32,120 --> 01:12:35,439
Speaker 2: you know, like for garter snakes, like maybe it's about warmth,

1203
01:12:35,439 --> 01:12:37,680
Speaker 2: but maybe it's just about like you know, because they

1204
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:40,639
Speaker 2: invite sudden, they invite a bunch of male attention or something,

1205
01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:43,720
Speaker 2: and it's like, who knows. This is just another incredible

1206
01:12:43,720 --> 01:12:46,880
Speaker 2: example of all the different ways that like sex and

1207
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:50,920
Speaker 2: gender play out. Yeah, just like don't support the prevailing theory.

1208
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:53,879
Speaker 1: Right, And like there's there are animals where their juvenile

1209
01:12:53,960 --> 01:12:58,400
Speaker 1: forms look all female and then their adult forms will diverge.

1210
01:12:58,680 --> 01:13:02,600
Speaker 1: Or a lot of birds, yes you have male and

1211
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:06,439
Speaker 1: female seabirds, but pretty much all of their behavior is

1212
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:10,839
Speaker 1: exactly the same, their plumage, their courtship, it's all the same.

1213
01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:14,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. We talk about pigeons in the series and of

1214
01:13:14,680 --> 01:13:17,360
Speaker 3: you know, sexually monomorphic species, and of like you know,

1215
01:13:17,400 --> 01:13:20,200
Speaker 3: looking at just walking the streets of New York City

1216
01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:23,479
Speaker 3: and all these kind of stories that we project onto

1217
01:13:24,160 --> 01:13:27,120
Speaker 3: two pigeons, you know, one pigeon chasing another pigeon, and

1218
01:13:27,200 --> 01:13:29,360
Speaker 3: this story of like, oh, there's that man you know,

1219
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:33,839
Speaker 3: chasing that that that woman. There's that husband chasing that wife,

1220
01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:35,920
Speaker 3: and you know, because they look the same. But it's like,

1221
01:13:36,080 --> 01:13:36,960
Speaker 3: we have no idea.

1222
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:37,840
Speaker 1: You know, it could be.

1223
01:13:38,160 --> 01:13:40,439
Speaker 3: Two males, two females, you know, but like that, that's

1224
01:13:40,439 --> 01:13:42,639
Speaker 3: what we're doing with all of these species that might

1225
01:13:42,680 --> 01:13:45,680
Speaker 3: look the same to our naked eye, and you know

1226
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:47,120
Speaker 3: they're probably gay.

1227
01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:52,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, let's just start roaming around with that as

1228
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:55,960
Speaker 2: the primary assumption. Like why not? Yeah, but we are

1229
01:13:56,040 --> 01:13:59,840
Speaker 2: so limited, like our observational prowess. Be it what it

1230
01:13:59,880 --> 01:14:01,480
Speaker 2: is is, we're so limited.

1231
01:14:01,080 --> 01:14:04,640
Speaker 1: In what we can and we have no idea what weigh.

1232
01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:06,599
Speaker 2: So many species. We don't know, no idea what whales

1233
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:06,960
Speaker 2: are up to.

1234
01:14:07,080 --> 01:14:09,519
Speaker 1: We do not know what girls are doing. They're too big.

1235
01:14:09,920 --> 01:14:12,720
Speaker 1: We can't fit them in, Like when too far away, big,

1236
01:14:12,760 --> 01:14:15,880
Speaker 1: they're too far away. We have no idea. They could

1237
01:14:15,960 --> 01:14:17,479
Speaker 1: have all they don't want us to know.

1238
01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:19,640
Speaker 2: They don't want us to know. They don't want us

1239
01:14:19,680 --> 01:14:19,880
Speaker 2: to know.

1240
01:14:20,080 --> 01:14:22,720
Speaker 1: But they could have nukes and we wouldn't know.

1241
01:14:23,240 --> 01:14:25,639
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, what I love about the humpback whale

1242
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:28,799
Speaker 2: is there the humpback whale is like you all creatures

1243
01:14:28,840 --> 01:14:31,679
Speaker 2: are obsessed with us and we have been living stealth

1244
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:34,080
Speaker 2: TIHI for so long. But then they're like, we're going

1245
01:14:34,160 --> 01:14:36,720
Speaker 2: to show you sex for the first time, but it's

1246
01:14:36,720 --> 01:14:40,040
Speaker 2: going to be gay sex. The recent in March the

1247
01:14:40,280 --> 01:14:43,600
Speaker 2: first observation of humpback whale sex and it was like

1248
01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:48,439
Speaker 2: gay sex, and like they did that strategically. They're like,

1249
01:14:48,479 --> 01:14:50,479
Speaker 2: we just we know that you're going to be wringing

1250
01:14:50,520 --> 01:14:53,719
Speaker 2: your hands for another century trying to figure that out.

1251
01:14:53,800 --> 01:14:58,519
Speaker 1: They immediately immediately log onto Twitter to see the fallout.

1252
01:14:58,600 --> 01:15:04,120
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're like, oh, we look good, yeah,

1253
01:15:04,160 --> 01:15:07,760
Speaker 1: and they do. An example that I like was like this,

1254
01:15:08,240 --> 01:15:12,920
Speaker 1: there was this group of lionesses who, well the way

1255
01:15:12,920 --> 01:15:17,439
Speaker 1: they're described as like lionesses who grewmines and start acting

1256
01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:23,160
Speaker 1: as like like males in Botswana, and you know, like,

1257
01:15:24,040 --> 01:15:27,040
Speaker 1: first of all, they were really cool looking because they

1258
01:15:27,080 --> 01:15:29,280
Speaker 1: have kind of it looked a little bit like a

1259
01:15:29,360 --> 01:15:33,320
Speaker 1: lion foxhawk, which is fun. They were somehow able to

1260
01:15:33,320 --> 01:15:36,680
Speaker 1: confirm that they had high testosterone levels. But again, I

1261
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:38,479
Speaker 1: mean that's kind of an example of how we're like, well,

1262
01:15:38,479 --> 01:15:43,080
Speaker 1: they're female lions, but they have high testosterone and they're

1263
01:15:43,120 --> 01:15:47,240
Speaker 1: acting like males rather than like, you know, this combination

1264
01:15:47,320 --> 01:15:51,160
Speaker 1: of aspects for this group of lions. So it's something else.

1265
01:15:51,040 --> 01:15:53,679
Speaker 2: And we need different language. I think they're just very

1266
01:15:54,560 --> 01:15:57,759
Speaker 2: limited by our language. Yeah, like it holds so much power.

1267
01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:00,799
Speaker 2: We just need different language. We need to stop saying

1268
01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:04,479
Speaker 2: like these are females that are behaving like males, but

1269
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:08,120
Speaker 2: also like have biology of females and males, and you're like,

1270
01:16:08,160 --> 01:16:11,559
Speaker 2: it's something else. Yeah, exactly, we need that word. Maybe

1271
01:16:11,600 --> 01:16:15,519
Speaker 2: it's just a human preoccupation to be like what are you?

1272
01:16:16,680 --> 01:16:19,640
Speaker 1: But yeah, I would like to see someone try to

1273
01:16:19,680 --> 01:16:22,439
Speaker 1: do that to a lion, be like pick one, pick

1274
01:16:22,479 --> 01:16:24,400
Speaker 1: a gender and then they're just getting their face ripped

1275
01:16:24,439 --> 01:16:25,160
Speaker 1: off by a lion.

1276
01:16:26,280 --> 01:16:28,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, listeners can look this up. But there was recently

1277
01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:32,639
Speaker 2: two male lions who were caught on video having sex

1278
01:16:33,240 --> 01:16:37,719
Speaker 2: and the like. Park officials were like, they're not gay.

1279
01:16:37,840 --> 01:16:40,320
Speaker 2: They just saw gay humans. They saw gay humans and

1280
01:16:40,320 --> 01:16:42,759
Speaker 2: they wanted to try it out. They're just mimicking humans.

1281
01:16:42,760 --> 01:16:45,560
Speaker 2: This is because of humans and it's like, wow, the

1282
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:48,479
Speaker 2: like the leaps that will go through.

1283
01:16:49,320 --> 01:16:52,320
Speaker 1: They read a book in middle school that told them

1284
01:16:54,720 --> 01:17:02,200
Speaker 1: turn them gay. Well, you guys, before we go, we

1285
01:17:02,240 --> 01:17:05,120
Speaker 1: do got to play a little game. It's called Guests

1286
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:08,680
Speaker 1: Who Squawk and the Mystery Animal Sound game is a

1287
01:17:08,720 --> 01:17:11,320
Speaker 1: game in which I play a mystery animal sound and

1288
01:17:11,400 --> 01:17:13,920
Speaker 1: sometimes I'm very sneaky and tricky about it, and you,

1289
01:17:14,120 --> 01:17:16,679
Speaker 1: the guest, and you the listener, try to guess who

1290
01:17:16,760 --> 01:17:19,680
Speaker 1: is making that sound. It can be any animal in

1291
01:17:19,720 --> 01:17:23,040
Speaker 1: the world or in space. Once we find them, it's

1292
01:17:23,080 --> 01:17:26,160
Speaker 1: only a matter of time. So here is the hint

1293
01:17:26,320 --> 01:17:31,280
Speaker 1: for last week's mystery animal sound. They can be victims

1294
01:17:31,280 --> 01:17:35,160
Speaker 1: of thieves or thieves themselves. May the most cunning rogues win?

1295
01:17:35,800 --> 01:17:37,599
Speaker 2: Are we to guess what the animal sound is?

1296
01:17:37,680 --> 01:17:37,920
Speaker 1: Yes?

1297
01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:41,600
Speaker 2: Okay, Well you're in for a treat. Because Lane and I,

1298
01:17:41,720 --> 01:17:44,439
Speaker 2: when it comes to competition, are really bad.

1299
01:17:47,760 --> 01:17:51,640
Speaker 1: I do like I do like to say that this

1300
01:17:51,760 --> 01:17:55,120
Speaker 1: is not a gotcha if I had to play this game,

1301
01:17:55,479 --> 01:17:56,840
Speaker 1: I would be terrible at it.

1302
01:17:57,439 --> 01:18:01,760
Speaker 2: But the fun part truth it's we're neither good nor bad,

1303
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:02,479
Speaker 2: but we're a secret.

1304
01:18:02,520 --> 01:18:04,760
Speaker 1: Third thing, the fun part is I get to act

1305
01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:08,360
Speaker 1: really smug because I just look for the animal sound

1306
01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:11,519
Speaker 1: and then make I'm like the Riddler of animal sounds.

1307
01:18:11,560 --> 01:18:12,519
Speaker 1: All right here it is?

1308
01:18:13,600 --> 01:18:20,320
Speaker 3: Okay, all right?

1309
01:18:20,439 --> 01:18:23,400
Speaker 1: Did you hear some of those squawking sounds?

1310
01:18:23,680 --> 01:18:26,679
Speaker 2: So I heard the sounds. There was squawks, for sure,

1311
01:18:26,840 --> 01:18:31,680
Speaker 2: some sort of short staccato squawks. There were some like

1312
01:18:31,760 --> 01:18:33,839
Speaker 2: context sounds of London waves.

1313
01:18:33,840 --> 01:18:36,720
Speaker 1: There was some horns. There was some wind.

1314
01:18:37,280 --> 01:18:41,200
Speaker 2: Uh huh uh huh. I mean this is Lene and

1315
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:44,000
Speaker 2: I talking amongst ourselves. But like my impulse is to say,

1316
01:18:44,120 --> 01:18:49,000
Speaker 2: like a goal or a turn. Yeah, like squawking the location.

1317
01:18:49,120 --> 01:18:53,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely some sort of sort of seabird.

1318
01:18:54,600 --> 01:18:56,520
Speaker 2: How specific we're supposed to get.

1319
01:18:56,840 --> 01:18:59,840
Speaker 1: But I mean as specific as you want to be.

1320
01:19:00,960 --> 01:19:03,160
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, it's some sort of some sort of goal.

1321
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:06,160
Speaker 3: It had like less of like a real squawk, you know,

1322
01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:10,559
Speaker 3: like it was a little more muted m hm. So

1323
01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:14,640
Speaker 3: it's like that's why I'm thinking, like maybe not like

1324
01:19:14,720 --> 01:19:17,320
Speaker 3: it wasn't like a seagull it had like a more

1325
01:19:17,360 --> 01:19:22,560
Speaker 3: of like a muted kind of yeah, you know, hmmm.

1326
01:19:23,240 --> 01:19:26,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe let's see what else what other birds such?

1327
01:19:27,240 --> 01:19:29,120
Speaker 2: I don't think it's a sure bird because it did

1328
01:19:29,160 --> 01:19:33,000
Speaker 2: sound like bigger. What we do agree that we think

1329
01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:33,479
Speaker 2: it's a bird.

1330
01:19:33,880 --> 01:19:36,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think you're safe to assume it's

1331
01:19:36,160 --> 01:19:37,000
Speaker 1: a bird at this point.

1332
01:19:37,080 --> 01:19:39,760
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, And we do agree that we think it's

1333
01:19:39,760 --> 01:19:40,400
Speaker 2: a gay bird.

1334
01:19:40,760 --> 01:19:42,880
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I think it's safe to assume it's a

1335
01:19:42,880 --> 01:19:44,040
Speaker 1: gay bird, just to assume.

1336
01:19:44,160 --> 01:19:46,000
Speaker 2: Okay, so it's a gay bird.

1337
01:19:46,200 --> 01:19:50,960
Speaker 3: I what do do pelicans make noises like that? Now?

1338
01:19:51,160 --> 01:19:54,320
Speaker 2: Like that in my experience, I mean, I feel like

1339
01:19:54,360 --> 01:20:00,679
Speaker 2: it's smaller than an albatross, bigger than a plo for Yeah,

1340
01:20:00,760 --> 01:20:04,040
Speaker 2: I mean I think that it's like seagull, I mean

1341
01:20:04,080 --> 01:20:06,160
Speaker 2: a goal of some sort. I don't think it's a

1342
01:20:06,240 --> 01:20:10,240
Speaker 2: laughing goal, but I do think it's a kind of goal, uh,

1343
01:20:13,080 --> 01:20:13,639
Speaker 2: or a turn.

1344
01:20:14,520 --> 01:20:17,400
Speaker 1: I'll give you another hint. It does have some relevance

1345
01:20:17,439 --> 01:20:19,960
Speaker 1: to this episode, just actually coincidentally.

1346
01:20:21,040 --> 01:20:25,760
Speaker 3: Okay, it's a it's a like a it's.

1347
01:20:24,479 --> 01:20:28,920
Speaker 2: A it's a lesbian seagull. It's a lesbian seagull.

1348
01:20:29,040 --> 01:20:34,519
Speaker 1: Yes, well, I can confidently say it is. Well, look,

1349
01:20:34,640 --> 01:20:37,200
Speaker 1: most likely it is lesbian, but it is in fact

1350
01:20:37,640 --> 01:20:49,240
Speaker 1: a deli penguin. You're so close circle.

1351
01:20:49,479 --> 01:20:55,280
Speaker 2: We have listened to so much like tape of penguin

1352
01:20:55,439 --> 01:20:59,040
Speaker 2: sounds that we've recorded, and like, I didn't think.

1353
01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:02,200
Speaker 1: It is so hard. See. The thing about sea birds

1354
01:21:02,240 --> 01:21:05,880
Speaker 1: is they all are They all vaguely look like little

1355
01:21:06,160 --> 01:21:09,840
Speaker 1: angry butlers and sound like little angry angry butlers, so

1356
01:21:09,920 --> 01:21:13,280
Speaker 1: it is hard to tell the difference. But yeah, they

1357
01:21:13,320 --> 01:21:17,439
Speaker 1: are found in the Antarctic. They craft amazing nests out

1358
01:21:17,479 --> 01:21:20,160
Speaker 1: of rocks for they're young, but they will often try

1359
01:21:20,200 --> 01:21:24,160
Speaker 1: to steal rocks from each other to furnish their own nest. Uh.

1360
01:21:24,200 --> 01:21:28,960
Speaker 1: And yes, they are often gay, so you know. And

1361
01:21:29,160 --> 01:21:33,400
Speaker 1: these penguins have been observed like taking turns having gay sex.

1362
01:21:33,520 --> 01:21:37,120
Speaker 1: So there is really no I guess question. Like it's

1363
01:21:37,120 --> 01:21:40,200
Speaker 1: not like you know, they accidentally slipped on an ice

1364
01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:44,840
Speaker 1: flow and happened upon a penguin orgy there. It's very intentional.

1365
01:21:45,360 --> 01:21:45,479
Speaker 3: Uh.

1366
01:21:45,680 --> 01:21:48,920
Speaker 1: And so you know they can rob your pebbles or

1367
01:21:48,960 --> 01:21:55,160
Speaker 1: your heart. These little penguins look so cute. Yes, all right,

1368
01:21:55,360 --> 01:22:00,840
Speaker 1: So onto this week's mystery animal sound hint is this

1369
01:22:01,760 --> 01:22:03,800
Speaker 1: is it a noodle. Is it a cat or is

1370
01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:21,880
Speaker 1: it neither? All right, you guys have any guesses? Noodle

1371
01:22:21,960 --> 01:22:24,519
Speaker 1: or what is it a noodle? Is it a cat

1372
01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:25,519
Speaker 1: or is it something else?

1373
01:22:25,640 --> 01:22:29,439
Speaker 2: Entirely, I just think it would be cruel if it

1374
01:22:29,479 --> 01:22:30,480
Speaker 2: was something.

1375
01:22:30,080 --> 01:22:32,519
Speaker 3: Else entire I'm gonna go with cat.

1376
01:22:33,360 --> 01:22:35,920
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go with noodle. I think it's it sounds

1377
01:22:35,960 --> 01:22:41,000
Speaker 2: to me like something that's like getting wind through it,

1378
01:22:41,080 --> 01:22:42,960
Speaker 2: which I guess is how a boys box work.

1379
01:22:44,160 --> 01:22:47,760
Speaker 1: The boys box is essentially a noodle, you know, it

1380
01:22:47,840 --> 01:22:49,320
Speaker 1: is essentially a meat.

1381
01:22:50,360 --> 01:22:53,240
Speaker 2: A meat noodle is a throat, but not a noodle.

1382
01:22:53,360 --> 01:22:57,240
Speaker 1: But not a meat noodle. Yes, meat noodle is gonna be.

1383
01:22:57,640 --> 01:22:59,320
Speaker 2: I just feel like if it was a cat, like

1384
01:22:59,320 --> 01:23:04,920
Speaker 2: what it be so sort of like consistent across like

1385
01:23:05,160 --> 01:23:08,200
Speaker 2: every time that we heard, I would just like imagine

1386
01:23:08,240 --> 01:23:10,760
Speaker 2: that would be a little bit more variation, and it's

1387
01:23:10,880 --> 01:23:17,080
Speaker 2: like total quality and it's like hitch, it's just so consistent.

1388
01:23:17,160 --> 01:23:18,960
Speaker 2: So it makes me think it's just like it it's

1389
01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:21,799
Speaker 2: like a noodle that has one shape that doesn't change

1390
01:23:22,320 --> 01:23:25,960
Speaker 2: on like a voice box, and so you're just gonna

1391
01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:27,760
Speaker 2: get that consistency at pitch. So I think it's so.

1392
01:23:27,920 --> 01:23:30,880
Speaker 1: Jital So I've got one for cat.

1393
01:23:30,920 --> 01:23:31,679
Speaker 2: Now I'm hungry.

1394
01:23:31,840 --> 01:23:34,479
Speaker 1: I've got one for cat, one for a noodle. I

1395
01:23:35,120 --> 01:23:38,479
Speaker 1: you both are in a way correct, but the true

1396
01:23:38,520 --> 01:23:41,559
Speaker 1: answer will not be revealed until next week's preach your

1397
01:23:41,600 --> 01:23:50,080
Speaker 1: feature clip hair noodles and cats falling off cliffs. Oh no, guys,

1398
01:23:50,120 --> 01:23:52,400
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me today. This was

1399
01:23:52,439 --> 01:23:55,880
Speaker 1: a wonderful conversation. I'm so excited for your podcast. Just

1400
01:23:55,920 --> 01:23:58,519
Speaker 1: so people can remember, tell them what the name of

1401
01:23:58,560 --> 01:24:02,040
Speaker 1: your podcast is, they can find it and where they

1402
01:24:02,160 --> 01:24:03,440
Speaker 1: can find you guys.

1403
01:24:04,240 --> 01:24:07,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, the podcast is called a Field Guide to

1404
01:24:07,640 --> 01:24:12,439
Speaker 3: Gay Animals and it is out June thirteenth, and it's

1405
01:24:12,520 --> 01:24:15,080
Speaker 3: five episodes, So the first episode is out June thirteenth,

1406
01:24:15,120 --> 01:24:18,000
Speaker 3: and then it will be out weekly after that. Wherever

1407
01:24:18,040 --> 01:24:21,000
Speaker 3: you get your podcasts, so you know, just go to

1408
01:24:21,000 --> 01:24:23,639
Speaker 3: your little podcast app and you'll be able to find

1409
01:24:23,680 --> 01:24:25,439
Speaker 3: it and look.

1410
01:24:25,400 --> 01:24:27,840
Speaker 2: Up a Field Guide to Gay Animals and we'll be there.

1411
01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:28,519
Speaker 1: We'll be there.

1412
01:24:28,680 --> 01:24:30,360
Speaker 3: That's where you can find it. That's where you can

1413
01:24:30,360 --> 01:24:32,000
Speaker 3: find us, and.

1414
01:24:32,120 --> 01:24:34,880
Speaker 2: Find us on Instagram as well at a Field Guide

1415
01:24:34,920 --> 01:24:35,800
Speaker 2: to Gay Animals.

1416
01:24:36,080 --> 01:24:38,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and thank you so much for having us, Katie.

1417
01:24:38,400 --> 01:24:40,040
Speaker 2: This was so fun so much for.

1418
01:24:40,000 --> 01:24:42,720
Speaker 1: Having Yeah, this is super fun for me.

1419
01:24:43,400 --> 01:24:46,080
Speaker 2: I enjoy being a featured Creature.

1420
01:24:47,040 --> 01:24:49,080
Speaker 1: And thank you guys so much for listening. If you're

1421
01:24:49,160 --> 01:24:52,559
Speaker 1: enjoying the show, if you leave a rating and review,

1422
01:24:52,680 --> 01:24:55,519
Speaker 1: it tangibly helps me and I read every single one

1423
01:24:55,560 --> 01:24:58,519
Speaker 1: of your reviews, all of them, no matter the cost.

1424
01:24:59,200 --> 01:25:01,360
Speaker 1: And thank you so much to the Space Cossics for

1425
01:25:01,439 --> 01:25:04,759
Speaker 1: their super awesome song Exo. Lumina. Creature features a production

1426
01:25:04,800 --> 01:25:08,120
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like the one you just heard,

1427
01:25:08,920 --> 01:25:11,639
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio ap Apple podcast. He guess what where

1428
01:25:11,640 --> 01:25:13,800
Speaker 1: have you listen to your favorite shows? I don't care.

1429
01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:15,760
Speaker 1: I'm not your mother, and I can't tell you what

1430
01:25:15,840 --> 01:25:19,320
Speaker 1: to do. You gotta be the captain pilot of your

1431
01:25:19,320 --> 01:25:23,960
Speaker 1: own life, if your life is a ship or a plane. Anyways,

1432
01:25:24,160 --> 01:25:26,920
Speaker 1: I'll see you next Wednesday.