1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:09,040
Speaker 1: Too Much Information is a production of iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,520
Speaker 2: Hello everyone, and welcome to Too Much Information, the show

3
00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,160
Speaker 2: that brings you the secret histories and fascinating facts and

4
00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,799
Speaker 2: figures behind your favorite TV shows, movies, music and more.

5
00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,040
Speaker 2: Where your new order of Nerds, your post punk of

6
00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:27,480
Speaker 2: provable trivia, your gloomy Englishmen of entertainment. And we're talking

7
00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,640
Speaker 2: about gloomy englishmen. I'm Alex Heigel, and I'm Jordan run

8
00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:35,240
Speaker 2: Tug and Jordan. Today we're talking about a debut album

9
00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,519
Speaker 2: that defined an era, helped launch a new subgenre, and

10
00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,000
Speaker 2: most importantly, created an entire cottage industry in T shirts.

11
00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,400
Speaker 2: That is right, we are talking about Joy Division's Unknown Pleasures.

12
00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:51,040
Speaker 2: I discovered this album in high school, presumably after seeing

13
00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:55,440
Speaker 2: the T shirt, and it was such a revelation to me,

14
00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:57,640
Speaker 2: you know, because prior, like most of the other punk

15
00:00:57,720 --> 00:00:59,600
Speaker 2: rock bands I knew about, I also learned about from

16
00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,600
Speaker 2: T shirt. It's like The Ramones, Misfits, Kennedy's Black Flag,

17
00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,800
Speaker 2: and when you get those four T shirt bands out

18
00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,480
Speaker 2: of the way and then you progress to another T

19
00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,440
Speaker 2: shirt band, Joy Division. I don't know why I pronounced

20
00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:13,680
Speaker 2: it like that. I was like Matt Berry, I enjoy

21
00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:21,000
Speaker 2: the works of Joy Division. Un Known pleasy is it's

22
00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,640
Speaker 2: such a departure. It sounds like a new, horrifying alien world.

23
00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,520
Speaker 2: And that's that's the gateway drug of post punk. And

24
00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,600
Speaker 2: then you're you're you're playing single note guitar lines and

25
00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:36,240
Speaker 2: and jagged atonal bass, and then drums suddenly get dancier

26
00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,600
Speaker 2: and the drawls become more disaffected, and then you're then

27
00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,120
Speaker 2: you're cooking with gas baby, getting a gang four wire,

28
00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,040
Speaker 2: you get a geometric haircut. You have to buy a

29
00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:49,360
Speaker 2: jazz master obviously.

30
00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:49,920
Speaker 1: Uh.

31
00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,320
Speaker 2: Anyway, I do not gather this band as your cup

32
00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:53,720
Speaker 2: of tea.

33
00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, you were in a T shirt bands. I was

34
00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:57,600
Speaker 1: into cardigan bands.

35
00:01:57,840 --> 00:01:58,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

36
00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,000
Speaker 3: Well, I mean Neahyja bands.

37
00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,800
Speaker 2: And you know, I I assume there's things that you

38
00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:08,320
Speaker 2: find in it, right, Yeah, I mean I I like

39
00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:08,920
Speaker 2: them now.

40
00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:13,320
Speaker 1: But my Joy Division origin story is not especially interesting

41
00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,400
Speaker 1: or unique. They were, you know, as you alluded to earlier,

42
00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,080
Speaker 1: one of those bands that I was more aware of

43
00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,239
Speaker 1: rather than actually had listened to, because their oriconography is

44
00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:22,720
Speaker 1: so strong.

45
00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,280
Speaker 2: Sure, it's just it's funny to me because like I

46
00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,079
Speaker 2: got you know, I grew up in Central Pennsylvania much

47
00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:33,000
Speaker 2: to my own tragedy, and I feel like I regret, yes,

48
00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:36,200
Speaker 2: so much of my own regret. I was born and

49
00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:40,760
Speaker 2: then grew up in central Pennsylvania. No, but I remember

50
00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:46,240
Speaker 2: seeing Joy Division and nothing about New Order like until Wikipedia.

51
00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,399
Speaker 2: I think the only place I ever saw New Order

52
00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:52,320
Speaker 2: glancingly mentioned was in like Rolling the Rolling Stones that

53
00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,079
Speaker 2: I were reading, and it was never enough to even

54
00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:55,800
Speaker 2: be like, what is this? What is this band?

55
00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:55,960
Speaker 1: Like?

56
00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,920
Speaker 2: I was, you know, honestly entirely old to be a

57
00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,280
Speaker 2: music nerd and find out that New Order came from

58
00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:04,320
Speaker 2: Joy Division. But I'm sorry I cut you off.

59
00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:06,280
Speaker 1: No, I mean, growing up in the early two thousands

60
00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,839
Speaker 1: was a funny time to be a burgeoning music fan,

61
00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,960
Speaker 1: I think, because so many of these classic groups had

62
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,520
Speaker 1: been canonized already as T shirt bands, but since this

63
00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,520
Speaker 1: was the pre streaming era, it was an investment to

64
00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,560
Speaker 1: actually investigate their music further. So I think this was

65
00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:26,560
Speaker 1: the prime era for band as fashion statement or social signifiers,

66
00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:28,840
Speaker 1: at least in my high school. So to me, the

67
00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:32,840
Speaker 1: Unknown Pleasures graphic was like the Nike swoosh for moody

68
00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:36,880
Speaker 1: depressed people at my school, and honestly, the little bit

69
00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,880
Speaker 1: of it that I had heard was kind of frightening

70
00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,080
Speaker 1: to me. I mean that doom and gloom of that

71
00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:47,200
Speaker 1: haunted voice was then magnified tenfold when I learned about

72
00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,240
Speaker 1: Ian Curtis's history. And then there's that story of his

73
00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,320
Speaker 1: girlfriend saying that she had a hard time listening to Closer,

74
00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,680
Speaker 1: his last album, because I think in her words she said,

75
00:03:57,680 --> 00:03:58,480
Speaker 1: he means.

76
00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,240
Speaker 2: It, Oh it sounds like me that was his mistress,

77
00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,320
Speaker 2: and she yeah, that was her mistress. She contends the

78
00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:07,680
Speaker 2: relationship with platonic, which I don't think anyone else does.

79
00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,880
Speaker 2: But I said girlfriend, yeah, well without mentioning first that

80
00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,000
Speaker 2: he was married with a daughter, but yeah, yeah, but

81
00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:16,800
Speaker 2: you know what I do, I'd like listening.

82
00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:20,680
Speaker 1: To this it suddenly takes on, yes, a level of

83
00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:25,039
Speaker 1: gravitas that it's perhaps the level of gravitas that any

84
00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:26,280
Speaker 1: band could get from.

85
00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:28,760
Speaker 2: Like you listen to Jim Morrison, but he's like all

86
00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,279
Speaker 2: he's just singing about being horny and thinking and how

87
00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,640
Speaker 2: cool he is, and then like I don't know, you

88
00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,800
Speaker 2: listen to Janis and it's like, ah, what jois de Vivra,

89
00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,640
Speaker 2: you know? Or Jimmy Hendrix and you're like, yeah, man,

90
00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:41,040
Speaker 2: but he was just too far out in this guy

91
00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:42,640
Speaker 2: and then you listen to Joy Division find out the

92
00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,640
Speaker 2: guy killed himself and you're like, yes, that seems exactly right.

93
00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:47,240
Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of how I feel about Elliott

94
00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,279
Speaker 1: Smith too. I find him hard. I mean, I love

95
00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,679
Speaker 1: Elliot Smith, I love you and Curtis, but I find

96
00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:57,040
Speaker 1: it difficult to listen to those albums for pleasure. Frankly,

97
00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,240
Speaker 1: I mean I feel that way to a certain stend

98
00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,640
Speaker 1: by Toamy Winehouse and Janis Joplin because of the pain

99
00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,080
Speaker 1: that they were so clearly in led them down the

100
00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,320
Speaker 1: road of of vices that ended up cutting their live short.

101
00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,880
Speaker 2: I guess I just mean, like upawn, immediate blush, Like

102
00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:17,360
Speaker 2: you are like, did this guy kill himself horribly? Oh yeah,

103
00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:19,159
Speaker 2: oh sure, and you're OK, yeah, yeah, yeah, No, that

104
00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:20,880
Speaker 2: makes sense. I got that immediately.

105
00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:22,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

106
00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,679
Speaker 1: I found it hard to to confront as a young

107
00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,960
Speaker 1: music fan coming up, you know, for somebody who existed

108
00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:35,320
Speaker 1: in the Beach Boys, Beatles, Simon and Garfunkel, Zombies, honey

109
00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:39,320
Speaker 1: Soaked Harmonies, realm. Yeah, going to Ian Curtis was just

110
00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,320
Speaker 1: not a place I wanted to even visit. No.

111
00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,440
Speaker 2: Well, from the famous Sex Pistols concert in Manchester that

112
00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,960
Speaker 2: launched several prominent bands and was attended by the members

113
00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,680
Speaker 2: of Joy Division. To the borderline abusive recording situation that

114
00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:57,000
Speaker 2: produced Unknown Pleasures, to the sad demise and rebirth of

115
00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,160
Speaker 2: a band that made it. Here is everything you didn't

116
00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:11,240
Speaker 2: know about Joy Division's Unknown Pleasures. The album begins with

117
00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,839
Speaker 2: what is generally considered to be the big bang of

118
00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:17,840
Speaker 2: punk in the northern part of the UK. And I

119
00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,000
Speaker 2: actually asked you this while I was writing it. But Jordan,

120
00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,840
Speaker 2: where does the Northern UK start? The North as they

121
00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:24,440
Speaker 2: refer to it.

122
00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,400
Speaker 1: I personally always thought it was the line demarketed by Liverpool,

123
00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,600
Speaker 1: Manchester and Sheffield. That's kind of on the same latitude.

124
00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,800
Speaker 2: They're north of Birmingham, right, Yeah, they're north of Birmingham,

125
00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,120
Speaker 2: so I think I think it's Birmingham. You think it's

126
00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:43,800
Speaker 2: Birmingham because they all talked about being you know, strong

127
00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:44,960
Speaker 2: industrial Northmen.

128
00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,240
Speaker 1: But we have some I just want to shout out

129
00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,480
Speaker 1: our British fans and addition to our friend John we

130
00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,760
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, we had a very lovely person who left

131
00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:58,040
Speaker 1: us a review. Knackered head teacher, British and proud, she says,

132
00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,000
Speaker 1: so thank you. Please get in touch, find us on Twitter,

133
00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:02,680
Speaker 1: let us know where the North of England starts.

134
00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,960
Speaker 2: Yes, I would genuinely be interested in learning that. Yeah,

135
00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:07,880
Speaker 2: thank you for because mostly because the other thing that

136
00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,560
Speaker 2: I brought up was was because there's a scene in

137
00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:14,239
Speaker 2: one of the Trip movies where Steve Coogan is arguing

138
00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,040
Speaker 2: to an aghast Rob Brydon the culture of the northern

139
00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,800
Speaker 2: part of Britain is more distinct than that of Wales.

140
00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a thousand true.

141
00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:25,160
Speaker 2: Whoah buddy.

142
00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,040
Speaker 1: Oh I'm a Beatles guy, come on, and an Oasis

143
00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,600
Speaker 1: guy and the Joy Division. Well I'm not Joy Division guy.

144
00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:38,280
Speaker 2: But yeah, but I mean, don't tell the Welsh that

145
00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:45,160
Speaker 2: they will to Johns while drinking more than you could

146
00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:46,600
Speaker 2: even conceive what was possible.

147
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:52,200
Speaker 1: Oh, I don't think you want to challenge like Liverpoodlians

148
00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:53,320
Speaker 1: or Manx.

149
00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,240
Speaker 2: To a drinking content. I'm not saying they're not formidable.

150
00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,120
Speaker 2: I'm just saying that, Like, I don't think you can

151
00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:02,200
Speaker 2: say that the cult you might, it's more recognized. Probably,

152
00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,520
Speaker 2: I just don't agree that it's a more distinct culture

153
00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,040
Speaker 2: than that of an entire island with its own language.

154
00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:11,880
Speaker 1: Wales isn't an island. Shut up.

155
00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,600
Speaker 2: Anyway. So yeah, the hardest music that they'd had up

156
00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:21,120
Speaker 2: until this was probably Black Sabbath.

157
00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:23,840
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, well.

158
00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe is it Zeppelin come through there? I can

159
00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:30,000
Speaker 2: see a bunch of Northern people like, well Leeds, come on,

160
00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,800
Speaker 2: that's not that's not true. I guess that. Yeah anyway,

161
00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,480
Speaker 2: so uh, the Sex Pistols came up and played the

162
00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:41,960
Speaker 2: Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall. Which does that presuppose the

163
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,840
Speaker 2: existence of a greater trade free Trade Hall?

164
00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,040
Speaker 1: You know, I was googling this before we came on

165
00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,640
Speaker 1: because the Free Trade Hall is where Bob Dylan had

166
00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,120
Speaker 1: his famous Judas concert when he went electric and one

167
00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,360
Speaker 1: of the fans shouted Judas at him for betraying his

168
00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,600
Speaker 1: folk leanings. I couldn't figure out if there was a

169
00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:05,360
Speaker 1: greater free Trade Hall. I don't think so. But again,

170
00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:07,960
Speaker 1: BRIT's listening, please get in touch.

171
00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,640
Speaker 2: Yeah let us know. So this happened on June fourth,

172
00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,840
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy six, and so in a roundabout way, we

173
00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:20,960
Speaker 2: actually owe Joy Division and many other Manchester bands existence

174
00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:27,160
Speaker 2: to another Manchester band, the Buzzcocks Joy Division and New

175
00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,200
Speaker 2: Order guitarist Bernard Sumner Barney, as he does not like

176
00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,800
Speaker 2: to be called but I will call him that. Yeah,

177
00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,200
Speaker 2: so you're a Peter Hook guy. I imagine, of course

178
00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,080
Speaker 2: I'm a Peter Hook guy. He's disputed this. He said.

179
00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,640
Speaker 2: He'd already started playing guitar and was looking around for

180
00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,080
Speaker 2: a band before the Lesser Free Trade Hall show. But

181
00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,760
Speaker 2: sex Pistles and punk in general had yet to become

182
00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:56,800
Speaker 2: a universal concern in February of nineteen seventy six, but

183
00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,400
Speaker 2: they had gotten enough press in the UK the UK

184
00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:04,079
Speaker 2: Trades that these two young gentlemen from Manchester named Howard

185
00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,160
Speaker 2: Devoto and Pete Shelley decided to go down to London

186
00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:13,000
Speaker 2: to catch this band, and sufficiently repulsed odd inspired, Devoto

187
00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,960
Speaker 2: and Shelley made two epical moves. They invited the sex

188
00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,959
Speaker 2: Pistols to come to Manchester and play the aforementioned Lesser

189
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,839
Speaker 2: Free Trade Hall, and they formed their own band called

190
00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,640
Speaker 2: the Buzzcocks or just Buzzcocks. I've never been entirely sure.

191
00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:29,840
Speaker 1: I think it's just Buzzcocks. Well wait a minute, no,

192
00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,520
Speaker 1: there's the great because there's a TV show British TV.

193
00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,200
Speaker 1: He never mind the Buzzcocks and my favorite shows Simon

194
00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:36,959
Speaker 1: Amsels hilarious. Look it up on YouTube.

195
00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:41,000
Speaker 2: News of the Sex Pistols show in Manchester spread by

196
00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,319
Speaker 2: word of mouth, so it was a very unattended gig.

197
00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,240
Speaker 2: I believe legend holds that around forty people showed up

198
00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,360
Speaker 2: for it, But much like the classic Velvet Underground quote

199
00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,160
Speaker 2: about everyone seeing them forming band, not many people saw them,

200
00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,439
Speaker 2: but everyone who did formed a band. A handful of

201
00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:01,520
Speaker 2: people in attendance at this forty strong gig did change

202
00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,400
Speaker 2: the course of music history. Devoto and Shelley obviously having

203
00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,920
Speaker 2: the Buzzcocks Going, they're basically described as one of the

204
00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:12,600
Speaker 2: architects of pop punk and or power pop, them, along

205
00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:17,760
Speaker 2: with a big Star, arguably the most melodically skilled and

206
00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,320
Speaker 2: arrangement wise skilled of any of that era except for

207
00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,880
Speaker 2: maybe the Clash. But I would argue that like the

208
00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:30,240
Speaker 2: Buzzcocks on singles Going Steady have like already a precocious

209
00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,200
Speaker 2: grasp of like pop songwriting and melody in a way

210
00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:37,199
Speaker 2: that the Clash at the same time did not. Man

211
00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,840
Speaker 2: Buzzcocks are great. Marky Smith was also in attendance there

212
00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,160
Speaker 2: and he formed The Fall, one of the UK's longest

213
00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:47,280
Speaker 2: lasting and influential punk bands, with a roster that swelled

214
00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:51,600
Speaker 2: to sixty six members before Smith died in twenty eighteen.

215
00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,040
Speaker 2: He was famous for saying, if it's me and your

216
00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:59,320
Speaker 2: granny on bongos, it's the Fall. And he was an

217
00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,679
Speaker 2: awful person. He was a real piece of and I

218
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,600
Speaker 2: can I find the Fall unlistenable. So there's that.

219
00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,960
Speaker 1: But he's hilarious, which is funny considering he's the lead

220
00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:12,960
Speaker 1: in for another prodigious Solen rock named.

221
00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:21,040
Speaker 2: Steven Patrick Morrissey. Uh. Yeah, you know, just a guy

222
00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,800
Speaker 2: who co founded the Smiths with another man Cunion, far

223
00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:28,439
Speaker 2: more talented than he and interesting and nice name. Oh

224
00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:30,920
Speaker 2: Johnny Marr, I love Johnny Mark. I've often said that

225
00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,640
Speaker 2: if I could get if somebody wanted to put together

226
00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,960
Speaker 2: isolate non vocal versions of the smith songs as a

227
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:39,520
Speaker 2: as a box set, I would buy it.

228
00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,839
Speaker 1: Oh wow, I'm sure and he could like do that.

229
00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,800
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's somebody on YouTube audio engineer wants to

230
00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:46,400
Speaker 1: do that for me.

231
00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,880
Speaker 2: I will venmo you five bucks, Morrissy, No, dude, since

232
00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,599
Speaker 2: I was like nineteen, I decided I never wanted to

233
00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:55,960
Speaker 2: be in a room with that man. No Johnny Marr,

234
00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,320
Speaker 2: Oh Johnny Martin, No, No, I would love to, but

235
00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,920
Speaker 2: it would just be like forty minutes of me being like,

236
00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,760
Speaker 2: so how close were the four amps that you used

237
00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,840
Speaker 2: to record as soon as now what were their exact

238
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,240
Speaker 2: micing placement that actually might be there's a light that

239
00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,400
Speaker 2: never goes out. I forget my Johnny mar guitar apocrypha.

240
00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,480
Speaker 2: Tony Wilson, the Manchester TV news presenter who'd go on

241
00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:20,920
Speaker 2: to launch the careers of Joy Division and also start

242
00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,400
Speaker 2: the record label Factory Records, which is the label that

243
00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:29,560
Speaker 2: is basically you know, responsible for the Manchester music scene

244
00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,679
Speaker 2: right throughout the eighties nineties. I mean short order they

245
00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:37,640
Speaker 2: produced Joy Division and order the Drudi column I believe.

246
00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,440
Speaker 2: I think later Happy Mondays.

247
00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,480
Speaker 1: All the Hawcienda stuff played by Steve Coogan in twenty

248
00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,520
Speaker 1: four hour Party People in front of the Pod Steve Coogan.

249
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,520
Speaker 2: And of course four of the subjects of this podcast

250
00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,720
Speaker 2: Ian Curtis, Bernard Sumner, Peter Hook, who would buy his

251
00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,400
Speaker 2: first base the day after seeing this concert, and Martin Hannett,

252
00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,560
Speaker 2: the producer who would help Joy Division craft their inimitable sound.

253
00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:04,080
Speaker 2: This was returned to the North a month later, visiting

254
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,040
Speaker 2: Sheffield with two other bands. You may have heard of

255
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,040
Speaker 2: theatrical punkstures, The Damned and a scrappy little band of

256
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:13,160
Speaker 2: upstarts called the Clash Uh. And then they would play

257
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,760
Speaker 2: the lesser Free Trade Hall three weeks after that, now

258
00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,520
Speaker 2: drawing hundreds to the venue. It is important to note

259
00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,440
Speaker 2: just how damned depressing Manchester was in this era. Until

260
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:25,880
Speaker 2: the Great Depression, it was a known hub for textile,

261
00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,000
Speaker 2: chemical and electrical production. And then during World War Three,

262
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:34,720
Speaker 2: Mancunion factories were repurposed to produce aircraft world War World

263
00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:38,880
Speaker 2: War three and.

264
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,920
Speaker 1: Then getting something in my ear right now, wait a minute,

265
00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,760
Speaker 1: take shelter, and.

266
00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:47,760
Speaker 2: Then during UH and then during World War Two the

267
00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,240
Speaker 2: Mancunian factories were repurposed to produce aircraft, which made them

268
00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:56,160
Speaker 2: a very attractive target for the German Luftwaffe. During the Blitz,

269
00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,760
Speaker 2: the city sustained incredibly heavy damage and many of its

270
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,440
Speaker 2: factories moved overseas after the war, and things got worse

271
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,080
Speaker 2: during the seventies thanks to good old Maggie Hatcher, who

272
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,720
Speaker 2: is now shoveling coal in Hell. And then many of

273
00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,520
Speaker 2: the iconic musicians from this era grew up amid the

274
00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:16,760
Speaker 2: literal rubble of the Blitz because a lot of this

275
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,800
Speaker 2: stuff just didn't get repaired or fixed, so they were

276
00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,840
Speaker 2: like playing amongst the bombed out ruins of their city

277
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,960
Speaker 2: and grew up in the government subsidized council housing aka

278
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:28,680
Speaker 2: the council flats.

279
00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,080
Speaker 1: Never tell you you're going to burn any bit of

280
00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,000
Speaker 1: good will we have with the UK. Audience went out.

281
00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,720
Speaker 1: I ever tell you my aunt was friends with market Thatcher.

282
00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:42,760
Speaker 2: Ha, that reflects poorly on your bloodline. My favorite quote

283
00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,600
Speaker 2: about her is from a Scottish comic who I forget.

284
00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,200
Speaker 3: But it was gonna be Frankly Boyle, was it.

285
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:49,360
Speaker 1: It's gotta be Frankie Boyle.

286
00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,160
Speaker 2: He was like her state cost her state funeral costs

287
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,760
Speaker 2: sixteen pounds. For the price of that, you could have

288
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,120
Speaker 2: bought every Scotsman a shovel and you would have dug

289
00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,360
Speaker 2: a tunnel so deep you could have handed her off

290
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:00,440
Speaker 2: to satan him.

291
00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:05,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's gotta be Frankie Boyle. He's so good. Yeah,

292
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,560
Speaker 1: she sucks. Uh what was that we are talking about?

293
00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:14,720
Speaker 1: Ian Kevin Kevin URTIs Curtis the anti Margaret Thatcher, known

294
00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,480
Speaker 1: to his friends as the anti Margaret Thatcher. He was

295
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,760
Speaker 1: born on July fifteenth, nineteen fifty six. The first of

296
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:26,840
Speaker 1: two children in a working class Macklesfield household. He quickly

297
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,560
Speaker 1: showed an interest in the life of the mind. That's

298
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,160
Speaker 1: a beautiful statement. Thank you for writing that.

299
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:33,200
Speaker 2: That's from Barton Fink.

300
00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,440
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I will show you the Life of.

301
00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:41,320
Speaker 2: The mind running down on Fire Hallway with a shotgun ring.

302
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:43,920
Speaker 1: Go watch Barton Fink. It's a great movie. It is

303
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,239
Speaker 1: one of my favorite com Brothers movies. He was particularly

304
00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,360
Speaker 1: fascinated by poetry, and by age eleven, he'd snagged a

305
00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:54,200
Speaker 1: place in the Macklesfield Boys grammar school called the King's School.

306
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,680
Speaker 1: He picked up several awards at the school while developing

307
00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:01,360
Speaker 1: his interest in philosophy, literature and poetry, and also began

308
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,880
Speaker 1: some of his more stereotypically punkish tendencies at this time,

309
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:09,400
Speaker 1: like shoplifting records and stealing pills from the elderly he

310
00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,880
Speaker 1: was visiting as part of a school program, the result

311
00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:19,240
Speaker 1: of which necessitated hospitalization at least once. Well, that kind

312
00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,600
Speaker 1: of stuff, hanging out at old people's homes in the

313
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,760
Speaker 1: late sixties in England.

314
00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:28,840
Speaker 2: I find the Joy Division story compelling because they were

315
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:33,160
Speaker 2: all like involved, and they all had day jobs until like, yeah,

316
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,000
Speaker 2: six months before they stopped being a band. Like they

317
00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,919
Speaker 2: were all involved in various like council hall and like

318
00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,760
Speaker 2: city hall government programs, just these like nice quaint Little

319
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,400
Speaker 2: Manx going down to the pub after nine to five

320
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:48,320
Speaker 2: and then going to produce like some of the most

321
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:54,760
Speaker 2: sepachoral music ever suppulcher L. Suppulcher L sad.

322
00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,879
Speaker 1: After a brief sit in college and dropped out and

323
00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:04,000
Speaker 1: began working at a record store in Manchester, later joining,

324
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,159
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, the civil Service. He also managed to

325
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,040
Speaker 1: get married to his childhood's sweetheart at age nineteen, and

326
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,960
Speaker 1: the two had their only child, Natalie, a few years later.

327
00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:18,640
Speaker 2: Yes, and that brings us to guitarist Bernard Barney Sumner

328
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,520
Speaker 2: born six months before Curtis. Grew up in the Manchester

329
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,399
Speaker 2: suburb of Broughton. Educated at the Salford Grammar School, he

330
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:30,240
Speaker 2: would join the minorly famous Manchester based animation studio Stop

331
00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,720
Speaker 2: Frame then it was called Cosgrove Hall Films as an animator.

332
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,159
Speaker 2: That was an early day job for old Barney. He

333
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:40,359
Speaker 2: was an animator on children's properties such as Jamie and

334
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,359
Speaker 2: The Magic Torch. The company is best known today for

335
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,320
Speaker 2: the spy parody Danger Mouse, which was a James Bond

336
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,720
Speaker 2: parody starring a mouse, a stop motion version of The

337
00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,119
Speaker 2: Wind in the Willows, and, perhaps more appropriately for a

338
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,639
Speaker 2: future member of Joy Division, Count Duckula.

339
00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:59,800
Speaker 1: Here, I feel bad taking Peter Hook. I know he's

340
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:01,480
Speaker 1: your I take Peter Hook next.

341
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,880
Speaker 2: Oh man, I mean Peter Hook. What do you say

342
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:10,040
Speaker 2: about him? An iconic rock star, like a bastard, A

343
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:15,880
Speaker 2: world class grouch as a soup, A laddish man. Nonparell

344
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,520
Speaker 2: born in nineteen fifty six. He was in the same

345
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,800
Speaker 2: outlying Manchester suburb as Sumner. His given name was Woodhead.

346
00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:25,239
Speaker 1: Now.

347
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,160
Speaker 2: His parents divorced when he was three years old, which

348
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,000
Speaker 2: is no mean feat in nineteen fifty nine England, and

349
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,240
Speaker 2: Peter wound up taking his new stepfather's surname. I was

350
00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,400
Speaker 2: just reading. How Also, thanks to his new dad, he

351
00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:39,719
Speaker 2: got to spend some time in Jamaica, and I cannot

352
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:44,000
Speaker 2: imagine a harder come down than returning to sixties seventies

353
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,280
Speaker 2: Manchester after seeing Jamaica.

354
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,960
Speaker 3: Like, good Christ, why was he taking to Jamaica?

355
00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,159
Speaker 2: I don't know, Oh no, I mean that was he

356
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:57,440
Speaker 2: was doing some kind of petrochemical or maybe destabilizing the government.

357
00:19:57,520 --> 00:19:59,520
Speaker 2: I don't know, Like what was the UK's what would

358
00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,760
Speaker 2: have brought an Englishman to Jamaica? Any number of things.

359
00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,840
Speaker 1: I love this. Peter Hook and Bernard Sumner, who would

360
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:10,080
Speaker 1: go on to become some of the fiercest Peter rivals

361
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:15,240
Speaker 1: in music history. Yeah, so so much. They first cross

362
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,080
Speaker 1: paths at Grammar School as students, and they were drawn

363
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,080
Speaker 1: together initially by a love of scooters, which actually played

364
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,160
Speaker 1: a role in their first falling out. According to Peter

365
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:29,320
Speaker 1: Hook's hilarious and absurdly vindictive memoir Unknown Pleasures, he and

366
00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 1: Bernie were on a scooter trip in southern France as kids,

367
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,080
Speaker 1: and one of their friends crashed his bike and needed

368
00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:39,240
Speaker 1: some extra cash to make it home. Hook writes, let's

369
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,920
Speaker 1: just say when it came to helping out, Barney wasn't

370
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,160
Speaker 1: very helpful. After that, I couldn't really look at.

371
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:46,160
Speaker 3: Him the same way.

372
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:47,800
Speaker 1: Have you read this book.

373
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,160
Speaker 2: I haven't, actually, Ah, I know one of your favorites.

374
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,560
Speaker 1: It's up there with like Levon Helm's memoir in terms

375
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,439
Speaker 1: of just pure venom. And my favorite part of the

376
00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:01,080
Speaker 1: book is when he describes Bernie Sumner. Thus, whoever it

377
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,640
Speaker 1: was that said no Man is an Island never met Bernard.

378
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,760
Speaker 1: It's so good. Everyone checked that book out, though Someder

379
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 1: and Hook formed what would become Joy Division with a

380
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 1: different drummer, Terry Mason. The band went through a number

381
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 1: of replacements until cementing their classic lineup with drummer Stephen Morris,

382
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,280
Speaker 1: the baby of the group, having been born in nineteen

383
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,719
Speaker 1: fifty seven, a year after everyone else. Stephen Morris grew

384
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,840
Speaker 1: up in nearby Macclesfield with a dad who helped organize

385
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 1: concerts in the area, and when a young Morris expressed

386
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,920
Speaker 1: his interest in drumming, Morris Senior told him drummers, Steven,

387
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,159
Speaker 1: I've never met a sane one yet. They all end

388
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,720
Speaker 1: up taking morphine and drinking absinthe rotting their brains. Spot

389
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,720
Speaker 1: the lie. Are there any bands where the drummers like

390
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 1: the stable member, I mean Flip Side, Keith Moon, No,

391
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 1: John Bonham, No, yeah, you know Dennis Wilson's Beach Boys.

392
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:58,240
Speaker 2: Know who it's Don Henley? Oh yeah, like, okay, a

393
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:02,000
Speaker 2: tremendous piece, so like the guiding hand behind that at

394
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:02,640
Speaker 2: all times.

395
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,680
Speaker 3: But yeah, you know Ringo was pretty stable in the eighties.

396
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:11,199
Speaker 2: Oh yeahs like that. Yeah, I don't know. I I

397
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 2: have this theory that it's because in developing the limb

398
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,480
Speaker 2: independence to play the drums, they like they lose a

399
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,879
Speaker 2: part of their brain like impulse control or wo like

400
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 2: it's I don't know. We got to crack one of

401
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 2: them open and do some tests.

402
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 1: So like an Oliver Sacks book on that? Did he

403
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,040
Speaker 1: write a book like musicalia?

404
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,959
Speaker 2: That's tremendous. Yeah, Like the guy who was struck by

405
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,640
Speaker 2: lightning and developed an insatiable urge to play and compose

406
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,879
Speaker 2: concert piano despite never having touched the instrument in his life.

407
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 1: That's cool. Is that the same book that has the

408
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 1: story about the guy who had some kind of a

409
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 1: phasia where his he had some kind of traumatic brain

410
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,679
Speaker 1: injury and the speech portion of his brain was damaged,

411
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 1: so he learned how to speak again through singing because

412
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 1: it was a different part of the brain. Oh, I

413
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:56,879
Speaker 1: don't know.

414
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 2: That's that that doesn't come to mind, but that is

415
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 2: very interesting. I believe I've traumatized you before with one

416
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 2: of my favorite avant garde vocalists, Diamanda Galley or Galas.

417
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:09,199
Speaker 3: I don't I don't remember that.

418
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 2: I don't know how to pronoun he name because I've

419
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,159
Speaker 2: only ever seen it printed. But she is sort of

420
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 2: a proto lingua ignoda, I would say, or Kristin Hater.

421
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 2: She performs on piano and has like the most insane

422
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 2: outrageous like extended range and extended techniques with her voice,

423
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,879
Speaker 2: Like she's got a tremendously like beautiful traditional voice, but

424
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 2: she also goes into like roars and snarls and like

425
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,920
Speaker 2: almost glossal alia, like speaking in tongues kind of stuff.

426
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 2: And I mean she's like literally contributed to soundtracks where

427
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,919
Speaker 2: she is playing a demon. But she's a fascinating artist.

428
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 2: I really do go look up her cover of I

429
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 2: Put a Spell on You.

430
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 3: It is what's her.

431
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 2: Name, Diamanda Galley yea with like an accent over the a.

432
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 2: She's Greek, so I don't know how you pronounced that.

433
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,120
Speaker 2: And so she actually studied a lot of techniques from

434
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 2: this guy, this this Austrian guy named Alfred Wolfson, sorry German,

435
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 2: and he worked with a lot of World War One

436
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 2: veterans who were like haunted by everything that they'd seen

437
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,679
Speaker 2: or they'd actually had their vocals damaged by mustard gas,

438
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,679
Speaker 2: and so he developed all of it. He was actually

439
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,400
Speaker 2: a stretcher bearer when he was eighteen, which is horrifying,

440
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,479
Speaker 2: and so you know, part of his PTSD was like

441
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 2: hearing people scream persistently, and he cured himself of that

442
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 2: by like having these moments of tremendous vocal catharsis where

443
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 2: he was just like scream singing, and he you know,

444
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 2: put this into codified this as like a system and

445
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 2: a method, and he became a singing teacher and a psychotherapist.

446
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 2: And you know, when he was working with people and

447
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 2: it was therapeutic for soldiers and everything, but when like

448
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,919
Speaker 2: actual singers started to learn this stuff, it would like

449
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 2: unlock on that registers in their voice and let them

450
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 2: do all these things that were like kind of not

451
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 2: traditionally thought capable essentially the way that they were using

452
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 2: their voice. So she was big into him. And then

453
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 2: how did we get into that?

454
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,679
Speaker 1: I mean, that's so interesting though. I Mean I had

455
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:24,439
Speaker 1: a really good friend who who would go to vocal

456
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,719
Speaker 1: coaches basically as a form of therapy to heal you know,

457
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 1: emotional trauma essentially, and they're they're studying to be a psychotherapist.

458
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 1: Now it's interesting the link between I mean, obviously we

459
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:38,679
Speaker 1: know the link between mind and body is so strong,

460
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: but I hadn't really thought much about the link between

461
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 1: voice and psychological healing. It's really interesting to me. I

462
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: hadn't really made that connection until very recently.

463
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 2: There's all this crazy stuff about focal dystonia. Have you

464
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 2: ever heard no about that? That is a like I

465
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 2: think it's neurological. This is like the nerdiest thing that

466
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 2: I will could could possibly ever say to you. But

467
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 2: I know it because of an online based teaching website

468
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 2: that I am a member of, not to teach, but

469
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 2: to like take lesson Scott's bas lessons.

470
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: Oh hell yeah, I know Scott's base lessons.

471
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 2: Oh yeah yeah, Scott Devine pluk slide. Anyway, he wears

472
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 2: a glove while he plays bass, and it's like people,

473
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 2: for before he became like truly famous, people were always like,

474
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 2: why do you wear that glove? And he's like, well,

475
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 2: I have focal dystonia, and like it's a neurological condition

476
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 2: that they don't really know what causes it. And it

477
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 2: just like misfires your muscle contractions. So it causes involuntary

478
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 2: muscle contractions that obviously make it very difficult for musicians,

479
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 2: in particular with their voice and with with hands. It

480
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 2: could have to do with overtraining and stressing, but they

481
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 2: also think it could be genetic. Like they really don't know,

482
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 2: and there just like sometimes they're like, well, yeah, you know,

483
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 2: sometimes your body just stops working that certain way, and

484
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 2: like there's no real cure for it other than like

485
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 2: a lot of therapy and learning to work with it.

486
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 2: Fascinating and horrifying the ways in which our bodies work.

487
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: Yep, yep. Anyway to the theme of this episode, the

488
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: ways that your body can sort of fail you in

489
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: spectacular ways.

490
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really should have taken that out of him

491
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 2: before this. Morris, Sumner and Hook placed a want ad

492
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 2: for a singer in the Manchester Virgin Records store in

493
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 2: Curtis was a known quantity from sort of the local

494
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 2: music scene, responded and was hired without an audition based

495
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 2: on his vibes. That's not an exaggeration. Bernard Sumner literally said,

496
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 2: we would just hire people based on whether or not

497
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 2: we got along with them. While both the Buzzcocks manager

498
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 2: Richard Boone and the frontman of that band, Pete Shelley,

499
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 2: have been credited with suggesting the band's original name Stiff Kittens.

500
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 3: Pretty good, I mean it was just chase the whole vibe.

501
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's one hundred and ten percent like a

502
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 2: pretty first wave UK punk name.

503
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: I mean imagine like the Closer album cover with like

504
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: the tone sniff Kittens with Stiff Kittens listed, but like

505
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 1: it just it doesn't work.

506
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. They initially decided on Warsaw, which was a reference

507
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 2: to David Bowie's song Warszawa, which is off Low. It's

508
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 2: an instrumental track, which, yeah, bummer song. Is that the

509
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 2: one that they parody in that animated thing where Brian

510
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 2: he knows, like, h David, I've just come up with

511
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 2: this an instrumental thing. Uh, while we're producing your record Low.

512
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 2: If you don't like it, I'll just stick on one

513
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 2: of my weird albums or something and uh. And then

514
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 2: he plays it for David Bowie and he says, uh, well,

515
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 2: it's a riveting, pressing piece of music. Brian, I'll probably

516
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 2: just free associate some made up language ubbish over the

517
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 2: top so people won't think I've stolen it from you.

518
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 2: It was that, Yeah, guys, Bowie impression is so good.

519
00:28:58,400 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: It is?

520
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 2: What is it? I have to find it now? Just

521
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:05,479
Speaker 2: so no, it is that because what it's called you know.

522
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 2: Also co producer Tony Visconti probably doing a lot more

523
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 2: than people realize on this record. Adam Buxton is the

524
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: comedian who oh.

525
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: Another great great British panel show veteran. Yes, this is

526
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: a very good podcast too.

527
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 2: Oh okay, good for him. Friend of the pod Adam Buxton.

528
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 2: Warsaw Wall played their first show in May of nineteen

529
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 2: seventy seven. They were an early They were first wave punk,

530
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 2: basically short a few days of being exactly one year

531
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 2: after that Sex Pistols gig, and they were supporting the Buzzcocks,

532
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 2: and their drummer for the night was a guy named

533
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: Tony Tabac or Tabik, who joined the band two days earlier.

534
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 2: A month later, they replaced him with a guy named

535
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 2: Steve Brotherdale, who hilariously spent the entire tenure in the

536
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 2: band trying to get Ian Curtis to join his other

537
00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 2: band called Panic. Because of this ironic lack of brotherhood,

538
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 2: the Nascent Joy Division fired Brotherdale in a cruely non

539
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 2: confrontational fashion. On the way back from recording some demos,

540
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 2: they pulled over asked him to step out of the

541
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 2: car to check a flat tire. And drove away.

542
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: Is that like basically what Metallica did the Dave Mustaine.

543
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 2: I think you would know that better than I would

544
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 2: from your work on Rivals. But I think they just

545
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 2: like left him something they read to stand a bus backus.

546
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 3: Yes, that was what it was.

547
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's that's only slightly less humane than

548
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: the Sid Barrett move of just like not picking him

549
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: up at his house one day or like, well.

550
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 2: That's what Neil Young did to Bruce Barry, right, He

551
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 2: like shipped him home with like pay in the middle

552
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 2: of a tour and Barry overdose like three days later.

553
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think that was like a year not

554
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: in any condition to be playing. Right. Now here goes

555
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: do it? Well?

556
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, take all this cash and go back to your

557
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 2: home base where you score your drugs.

558
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: Which was LA.

559
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 2: I believe surely this will turn out well for you.

560
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 2: I'm Neil Young.

561
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 1: There's definitely like a listicle out there of like worst

562
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: ways bands of Fire A member.

563
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 2: Oh sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm trying to think of

564
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 2: what else. I don't care. Things happened quickly for the

565
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 2: band after that. Stephen Morris, who would go on to

566
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 2: earn the nickname the Human drum Machine for his unerring

567
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 2: precision and Verve responded to their ad in August of

568
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy seven, which is fortunate because I have read

569
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 2: that he was the only person who did so, and

570
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 2: the band changed their name in early nineteen seventy eight

571
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 2: to avoid confusion with the London punk band Warsaw Pact.

572
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 2: They went with a pretty dire source for the new

573
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: One Joy division was, as is often mentioned, a sexual

574
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 2: slavery wing connected to the Nazis concentration camps. They essentially

575
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: abducted or just took women from within the camps and

576
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 2: put them into forced sexual slavery, largely servicing other camp

577
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 2: members who were all non Jewish, who were like co

578
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 2: conspirators or like had been somehow elevated in the ranks

579
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 2: of prisoners. They were at Auschwitz, Bergen, Buchenwald and Docou,

580
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,719
Speaker 2: so you know, all the worst ones. And according to

581
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 2: Joseph Kohout, an Austrian Nazi concentration camp survivor imprisoned for

582
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 2: being gay, Himmler mandated weekly visits to the Freuden Freuden

583
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 2: a Tailungen for gay prisoners, which Himmler intended to cure

584
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: them of their homosexuality with the band learned about this

585
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 2: via Camp survivor and author Yehiel Feiner's nineteen fifty five

586
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 2: novella House of Dolls.

587
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: This is somehow not the worst Nazi related British band

588
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: name of the era.

589
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, educate us about Spandau Ballet.

590
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I well, let me. I was doing this off

591
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: the dome. I want to make sure this is actually right. Okay,

592
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: it has been scrubbed from their Wikipedia page. Yes, spandout

593
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 1: Ballet I have heard referred to the final jerky moments

594
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: of Nazi prisoners of war being hung for their crimes.

595
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: That was their bodies dangling, spasming in their last moments

596
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: of life.

597
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 3: Spandau Ballet. I know this much.

598
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: Is true.

599
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 3: The Joy Division recorded.

600
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: There's something Happier Joy Division Quick.

601
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, imagine if they'd gone with Freud,

602
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 2: Di Nied, Pudentia and NuGen. They recorded their debut apep

603
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 2: An Ideal for Living in December of nineteen seventy seven,

604
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 2: and played their first gig under their new name in

605
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 2: January of nineteen seventy eight. The cover of the EP,

606
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 2: with its illustration of a Hitler youth member, did not

607
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 2: e tensions over their name, things continued to happen for them,

608
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 2: though truly one of the most rocket ride you know

609
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 2: to fame a band by nineteen seventy seven, famous by

610
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 2: like late nineteen seventy nine, and done by early nineteen eighty. Anyway,

611
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 2: in April of seventy eight, they had caught the eye

612
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 2: of the aforementioned TV presenter Tony Wilson, along with another

613
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 2: men Cunian named Rob Gretton, who had become their new manager.

614
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 2: And it's usually important part of why they became successful.

615
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 2: This guy was like their biggest champion. According to legend,

616
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 2: a drunken Ian Curtis berated Tony Wilson for not putting

617
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 2: them on so it goes. I have also heard that

618
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 2: he wrote a scathing letter and Wilson responded and said

619
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 2: that Joy Division would be the next band that he

620
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 2: would showcase on TV. They self released this troublingly titled

621
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 2: EP and in June of nineteen seventy eight, and made

622
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 2: their television debut that September. Joy Division's first encounter then

623
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 2: with the inf producer Martin Hannett. It's funny I actually

624
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 2: heard Martin Hannett's name first in a Dead Kennedy's song

625
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 2: in their song Nazi Punked Off, which is one of

626
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 2: their later later era songs. By later, I mean like

627
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 2: eighty or eighty one instead of seventy seven, but it

628
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 2: has a bit of studio chatter with Jellaby offer going

629
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 2: over produced by Martin Hannett. He was a hard, hard

630
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 2: ass in the studio anyway. Their first encounter with him

631
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 2: came via a compilation double seven inch EP from Tony

632
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 2: Wilson's new label, Factory Records, was in fact the first

633
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 2: release on Factory in October seventy eight. From this strength

634
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 2: of his TV appearance, they received a few offers from

635
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 2: major labels, but decided to opt for the nascent Upstart

636
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 2: label in promise of a better financial split and more

637
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 2: creative freedom. This would come back to bite all of

638
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 2: them in the ass, because Tony Wilson was an awful,

639
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 2: awful businessman. Martin Hannett was a self taught audio nerd

640
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 2: who had a degree in chemistry and came to engineering

641
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: from doing live sound for concerts. He landed his place

642
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 2: in punk history for recording the first independently released punk record,

643
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 2: The Buzzcocks Spiral Scratch EP, People People, forget that. For

644
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 2: all the punk's vying claims for independence. You know, the

645
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 2: Ramones were on Sire and sex Pistols were on em

646
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 2: I yeah, real, real hard scrabble lads there. God, I

647
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 2: hate the sex Pistoles.

648
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: I didn't know that. I didn't know that.

649
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, Johnny Lyten's an edge case as far as like

650
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 2: p I l but he just sucks so hard. And

651
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 2: all of them sucked so hard. They were just like

652
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 2: the worst group.

653
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: Of as musicians or people or both.

654
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I find nothing interesting about them other than the

655
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 2: fact that they suck.

656
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: But that sometimes that's enough, though, I mean.

657
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 2: You were just they were you know what they were.

658
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 2: They were like the archetypal they were.

659
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 1: Like did they not suck? Interestingly?

660
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 2: No, their music is it's like so bor it's pub rock.

661
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 2: It's just like boring ass Like it's not it's it's

662
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 2: pub rock. You know. They fired the only guy in

663
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 2: the band who was good at music, Glenn Mattlock, and

664
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 2: then literally hired a guy based on his image who

665
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 2: could not play bass period. Sid Vicious could not play bass.

666
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 2: They were all like violent men, possibly you know, like

667
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 2: all sexual predators. Given that the tenor of the times

668
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 2: and yeah, dude, they were just put they were a

669
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 2: boy band, like Martin Mclairin just shoved them together based

670
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 2: on thinking that he could sell them as an image,

671
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 2: you know. But yeah, yeah, Also they were directly influenced

672
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 2: by the Ramones, which forever settles the issue of the

673
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:49,280
Speaker 2: US like like they learned from the Vermoness self titled debut,

674
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 2: So the US invented pug. I'm sorry to those of

675
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 2: the UK who were clinging onto that last thing. Oh

676
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 2: what your country did? Oh thanks to our listeners in

677
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 2: the UK.

678
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: I was gonna say this is the episode especially for

679
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 1: our new UK friends.

680
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 2: It was anyway, Yeah, his other stuff is super weird.

681
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 2: He a Manchester comic named Graham David Fellows had a

682
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 2: hit called Jilted John, which do you know anything about that?

683
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 3: Nope?

684
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 2: I think it's like a comedy record that Martin Hannett produced.

685
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 2: And he also did some records with this punk poet

686
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 2: guy named John Cooper Clark who was just doing like

687
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 2: spoken word over Martin Hannett's weird electronic sounds and like

688
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:38,720
Speaker 2: bass playing sounds awful.

689
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, even I can't put a good face to that.

690
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 2: No. Also, I think at one point in is it

691
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 2: twenty four hour party. People that they he's like played

692
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,320
Speaker 2: by Andy Serkis and when they they bury him, they're

693
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 2: like he was too fat for his coffin or something like.

694
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 2: They say something awful about him.

695
00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 3: But Martin Hannett, Yeah, because he died super young.

696
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:04,800
Speaker 1: His gravestone has the architect of the Manchester Sound engraved

697
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: on it. I think he died at like age forty

698
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: two or something, presumably of if it wasn't a direct overdose,

699
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 1: just from excessive alcohol and drug use. I believe. Yes,

700
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be

701
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,720
Speaker 1: right back with more too much information in just a moment.

702
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 2: Wow.

703
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: But before Jory Division stepped into the studio to record

704
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: Unknown Pleasures with Martin Hannett, three landmarks in the band's

705
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: history occurred.

706
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 3: Number one.

707
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 1: In December of nineteen seventy eight, Ian Curtis had his

708
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 1: first recognized severe epileptic seizure. Curtis had actually probably developed

709
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: a disease a long time before this. His wife Deba,

710
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,799
Speaker 1: remember that as early as nineteen seventy two he would

711
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 1: report having sensation of floating. You wrote while sorbet is

712
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 1: that a typo? I like it?

713
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 3: It is no wow sober? Oh wh all sober?

714
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 2: Okay, but possibly while making sorbet. What a delio sprinkle,

715
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:20,720
Speaker 2: A delicious wrinkle on the joy division myth of being

716
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 2: Curtis a devoted fan of Sorbet.

717
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 1: I can't read this next part wold laughing Jesus Christ.

718
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 1: And then he collapsed on a venue floor after prolonged

719
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: exposure to a strobe light. Prior to his diagnosis, most

720
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: of these incidents were chalked up to drugs and alcohol,

721
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 1: but Curtis received an official diagnosis of epilepsy in January

722
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine, with the horrifying prediction from doctors that,

723
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: without medication quote, his life would be ruled to obsolescence

724
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:52,720
Speaker 1: by a severe epilepsy.

725
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 2: A horrible thing to say to your patient.

726
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: Epilepsy is so goddamn scary. Oh yeah, I know very

727
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: little about it. It's the two halves of your brain

728
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: stopped communicating.

729
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 2: Well, I believe, but I am not entirely sure that

730
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 2: it's uh from my high school psych class that one

731
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 2: of the first big insights into epilepsy came from that

732
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 2: guy who got the steel rod jammed up his face.

733
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: Oh Phineas Gauge.

734
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 2: Yes, Phineas Gauge, our boy, Phineas Gage, the.

735
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 3: Phineas Gage. Oh Jesus Christ.

736
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 2: The firsts up of him is him holding the iron

737
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 2: rod that went through his face and separated the halves

738
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:35,280
Speaker 2: of his brain.

739
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: So he was a railroad worker, right, and the railroad

740
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 1: spike went down the hole and something exploded and it shot. Yeah.

741
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it like went through the lower half of his

742
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,240
Speaker 2: jaw and came out the top head of his brain.

743
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 2: But it severely it severed the yeah, sorry, it severed

744
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 2: the two halves of his brain essentially, And that was

745
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 2: like an early understanding of how the brain worked for us,

746
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 2: because his personality like changed drastically and it gave It

747
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 2: was like a landmark case in our understanding of how

748
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,760
Speaker 2: mental illness or any kind of confliction of the affliction

749
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,240
Speaker 2: of the brain was governed by how the two halves

750
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 2: work together.

751
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: Did his personality change? Was he just like, Holy, a

752
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: spike just went through my head. I'm going to do

753
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 1: things differently.

754
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 2: According to Wikipedia, the effects were sufficiently profound that his

755
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,320
Speaker 2: friends saw him as quote no longer gauge.

756
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,359
Speaker 1: Oh how long did he live after that?

757
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 2: Twelve years after that?

758
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: Wow, that is horrified. When was that like turn of

759
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:40,240
Speaker 1: the century, like late eighteen hundreds, actually early eighteen hundreds,

760
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

761
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 2: Incident the incident occurred in eighteen forty eight.

762
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 3: Oh my god.

763
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: Wow, I didn't know what it was that early.

764
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't actually believe they made any I don't

765
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 2: want to misrepresent him as being like some kind of

766
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 2: epilepsy forbear, but it was like our understanding of how

767
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 2: epilepsy as occur was informed by his case.

768
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 1: That is wild wow.

769
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,439
Speaker 2: At least as I was educated in Central Pennsylvania, which

770
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 2: again I regret from a high school psychology class. I

771
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 2: actually read a little bit about the history of epilepsy

772
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 2: treatment and like diagnosis to get to get some context

773
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 2: for this, and it doesn't go back that far. The

774
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 2: like really had not developed treatments beyond like incredibly invasive

775
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 2: surgery and like a battery of truly horrifying drugs. By

776
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 2: the time Curtis was dealing with it was the new

777
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 2: young epileptic no hit polio and autism. I mean, he

778
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 2: might be lying about that because it's something you don't

779
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 2: like grow out of. So if Neil Young at any

780
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 2: point was like aight epilepsy, you know, remember that our

781
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 2: friend of a friend in our people days who said

782
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 2: Neil lies like he breathes.

783
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: I think he No, he had epileptic seizures.

784
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 2: I guess so.

785
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,919
Speaker 1: One of the best known singers with epilepsy rock Neil

786
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 1: Young's a rock legend, all right, Young Time. He's been

787
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 1: very open by his life with epilepsy, which he describes

788
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 1: in his memoir. He developed epilepsy as an adult in

789
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty six and once told a journalist that a

790
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: seizure felt like, quote, you slip into some other world.

791
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 1: In December nineteen seventy eight, Ian Curtis was prescribed pheno

792
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: barbatol to combat he's seizures, but when they continued to occur,

793
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 1: he was subsequently given fen toyne fentytoyine fenotoin carbanza carba.

794
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: He was given some other stuff. Owing to the group's

795
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 1: heavy performance schedule and equally heavy drinking and drugging, Curtis

796
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 1: would lose track of which drug he was supposed to

797
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 1: be on at any given time, and unfortunately, one of

798
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 1: the well diagnosed side effects of pheno barbatol is depression.

799
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 1: So on all this is not good for Curtis.

800
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,760
Speaker 2: It's just so tragic man. I was definitely a combination

801
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 2: of like Northern UK like man culture of like never

802
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 2: talking about your problems and self medicating. I mean he

803
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 2: did drugs and drank to like both as part of

804
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 2: the culture, but like also to like numb all of

805
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 2: this horror and pain. And you know, also being a musician,

806
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 2: is this bad for you because you're supposed to get

807
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 2: like a lot of good sleep, regular sleep, and like

808
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 2: issue alcohol and drugs and all that stuff if you

809
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 2: have epilepsy. Anyway, a few weeks after that, Joy Division

810
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 2: landed the January thirteenth of NME and recorded their de

811
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 2: Reger event in Life of an Upcoming Punk band, The

812
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 2: Peel Session also that month, and three months later they

813
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 2: entered Strawberry Studios, founded by members of ten CC Inport

814
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 2: with Martin Hannett Jordan. Just give us a thumbnail sketch

815
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 2: of John Peel and the Peel Sessions.

816
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,760
Speaker 1: Oh. John Peel, legendary English DJ, one of the founding

817
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 1: members of BBC Radio one in nineteen sixty seven. He

818
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 1: was a veteran of the Pirate Stations before that, who

819
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 1: were like, you know, UK didn't have commercial radio, so

820
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 1: the Pirate stations were basically the only radio networks in

821
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: the early sixties who played like pop music all the time.

822
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: Otherwise it was strictly limited on BBC Radio waves. So

823
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: when he came aboard to BBC Radio One, which was

824
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 1: the UK's first real dedicated pop network, he was like

825
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 1: he had the cool cred because he was on the

826
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 1: pirate stations and he ran late night shows I think

827
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 1: called top Gear was one. The Perfumed Garden was another

828
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 1: in the late sixties, and anyway, he was famous for

829
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 1: having bands on. He was well, he's famous for a

830
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 1: couple of things. He was famous for playing kind of

831
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: the weirder like like FM before FM was a thing,

832
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 1: like the kind of weirder stuff, and then he would

833
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: have bands on for these sessions you have them play

834
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 1: like in studio concerts, and it became a real rite

835
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: of passage for breaking bands. He was like a big

836
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,280
Speaker 1: probably one of the pre eminent people who broke punk

837
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 1: in the UK. I would have to say The Undertones

838
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 1: was one of his favorite bands. Yea, his Kicks, great song, Yeah,

839
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: teenage Kicks so hard to beat. So yeah, he was

840
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: just like the pre eminent taste maker of UK music

841
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 1: from the late sixties. Through cheese. I mean probably through

842
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 1: to his death in two thousand and four. I mean

843
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 1: any of our UK listeners keep me humble there, but

844
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: pretty undiminished the guy. The guy had some heaters through

845
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: to his death.

846
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 2: He sure did. Jordan Steven Morris told British GQ that

847
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,800
Speaker 2: his first impression of Martin Hannett was Joe Meek combined

848
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 2: with Tom Baker period Doctor Who, which Bernard Sumner echoed.

849
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 2: It's true Martin did look like Tom Baker from Doctor Who,

850
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 2: but you'd have to add some serious drugs to the

851
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:56,240
Speaker 2: equation as well. He was basically Doctor Who on drugs.

852
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 1: That's quite an image. And also Joe Meek is is

853
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 1: not a very flattering comparison.

854
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 2: You don't tell people that you someone's like Joe Meek.

855
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, Joe McK for non sixties britpop Megan Nerds like us.

856
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,879
Speaker 1: He's basically like the UK's answer to Phil Spector. He

857
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 1: built a home studio in his apartment and did early

858
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: experiments with tape technology that basically amounts it to these spacey,

859
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 1: haunting pop records tell Us Star Dull Telstar Yeah, which

860
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:27,399
Speaker 1: I believe was the first UK song to go number one.

861
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 1: The United States, and he also has a very, very

862
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 1: fascinating album called I Hear a New World which is

863
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: a pioneering concept album techno work.

864
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 2: Tell you one thing, his landlady heard some new worlds.

865
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 1: Oh yes. Unfortunately, these achievements are overshadowed by the fact

866
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 1: that he was dealing with some serious undiagnosed mental issues

867
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,760
Speaker 1: and ended up shooting his landlady to death before turning

868
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,399
Speaker 1: the rifle on himself in nineteen sixty seven. So yeah,

869
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 1: not exactly a flattering comparison for Divisions producer Martin had it.

870
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 2: And from that first impression things only deteriorated. Hannah was

871
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 2: just a super dick to them, and I think it

872
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 2: was he called the band like a producer's dream because

873
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 2: they were all so young and inexperienced that he would

874
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 2: just frequently tell them to shut the up and leave

875
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 2: him alone like and he was also perpetually stoned on

876
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 2: weed heroin suppers, often drunk. Peter Hooker called in the studio.

877
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 2: We'd sit on the left, he'd sit on the right,

878
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 2: and if we said anything like I think the guitars

879
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 2: are a bit quiet, Martin, he'd scream, Oh my god,

880
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 2: why don't you just off.

881
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:41,759
Speaker 1: To be fair. That sounds like something you would do

882
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:43,280
Speaker 1: when you were annoyed with us.

883
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:48,320
Speaker 2: It's true. And I was also frequently messed up Hannah's

884
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 2: instruction to the band while tracking, which took two days.

885
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 2: They did basic tracks on a Saturday and then overdubs

886
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 2: on a Sunday, and then the rest of it was

887
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 2: like mixing. The album was done in like a matter

888
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:06,359
Speaker 2: of days, but his instructions to them were vague and

889
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 2: pseudomistical in nature. Be magnificent, but humble. That also sounds

890
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:19,839
Speaker 2: like Barry Matt Barry thing. Be magnificent but humble. Or

891
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 2: he would tell them to do it again, but more

892
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:25,879
Speaker 2: cocktail party like that, or more yellow, I really like that.

893
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,240
Speaker 2: And he once asked for another take, slower but faster,

894
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 2: and it would do things like listen to mixes from

895
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 2: under the console, and when he got tired of the band,

896
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 2: he would literally freeze them out by cranking the AC

897
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 2: down or up. I've never understood how that works, to

898
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 2: untenable levels of freezing. Hook wrote in his memory that

899
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 2: there were obviously no such thing as click tracks or

900
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 2: backing tracks in those days, so they would just go

901
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:52,359
Speaker 2: in bang out the tracks. Ian would be in the room,

902
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 2: but he would do the vocal in isolation later.

903
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: I just have to retell the famous story speaking of

904
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 1: outrageous music descriptions of how John Lennon would convey what

905
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: he wanted to hear at Beatles producer George Martin. He

906
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 1: has there's a great piece on Vulture about just all

907
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:10,800
Speaker 1: the most like ridiculous things that John Lennon told George

908
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 1: Martin for the benefit of mister Kite. He told George

909
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,280
Speaker 1: Martin that he wanted it to quote sounds like an orange.

910
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

911
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 1: Martin recalled this in Mark Lewison's nineteen eighty eight book

912
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:24,399
Speaker 1: The Complete Beatles Recording Sessions. John had said he wanted

913
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 1: to smell the sawdust on the floor, wanted to taste

914
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 1: the atmosphere of the circus for the climax to a

915
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 1: day in a life. He wanted a sound quote like

916
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 1: the end of the world, which I'd have to argue

917
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 1: that George Martin delivered a seachord, no, the whole like crescendo.

918
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 2: I know, no, I know, But isn't it just like

919
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 2: the piano chord is just like a boatload of sea

920
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:46,240
Speaker 2: chords on like four pianos, right, I guess it e.

921
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 3: Sorry, check me, check me, check me. Yeah, do it off?

922
00:51:52,200 --> 00:52:00,840
Speaker 1: Do it off, John hurt voice, I have the wallras,

923
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 1: George Barton recalled John, asking I'd like for you to

924
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,280
Speaker 1: do a score and use some brass and some strings

925
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 1: and some weird noises. You know, the kind of thing

926
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 1: I want. But, as George Barton recalled, I didn't. I

927
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 1: just went away and did what I did, and for

928
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 1: tomorrow never knows. John wanted to sound like a thousand

929
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 1: monks chanting, even though he was only one of him.

930
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:25,840
Speaker 2: Tom Waits would do this kind of good too, He

931
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,800
Speaker 2: would like, if I recall correctly. Some of his advice

932
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 2: was like play it like your hair is on fire,

933
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 2: which is a good one.

934
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 1: And then there is Becker and Fagan from Steely Dan,

935
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,320
Speaker 1: who would just tell their guitar soloists play the blues.

936
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 2: Or just no, that wasn't it. That wasn't it either, No,

937
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 2: do another one, all right, thanks for coming in. I

938
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:50,359
Speaker 2: love the Dan.

939
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 1: Yes. Martin Hannett reserved most of his abuse. However, for

940
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 1: Steven Morris the drummer. He was actually quite enthralled with

941
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 1: Morris's ability to play fast and repetitively without error. But

942
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 1: he seemed to take this as a license to put

943
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: him through all kinds of abuse while recording, like allegedly

944
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 1: for legal reasons while he's dead, don't care like forcing him.

945
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,279
Speaker 2: One person said this wasn't true out of band, but

946
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 2: it's also in I think it's part of it is

947
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 2: in the movie Control. Yes, on the Coorian movie Korbian.

948
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 1: He supposedly forced him to record the drums for She's

949
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:26,399
Speaker 1: Lost Control on the roof of the studio, which must

950
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 1: have been freezing. I assume he reportedly made Morris dismantles

951
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 1: entire kit down to the screws because he said he

952
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:37,760
Speaker 1: heard something rattling inside. To this day, the surviving members

953
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 1: of Joy Division don't seem to know if this was

954
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 1: true or one of hand. It's psychological games. Jesus Christ.

955
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, his whole thing was isolation in the drums.

956
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 2: He wanted everything to be I guess because he had

957
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:54,359
Speaker 2: such ambitious designs on how he was going to treat

958
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 2: them with reverb and delay. He wanted them each part

959
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 2: as clean as possible, and so he put Steven Morris

960
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 2: through the I have to imagine insanity inducing trial of

961
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 2: literally recording the drums one at a time. So you know, normally,

962
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 2: when you play a drum set, you play all of

963
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 2: the parts at a single time as the instrument mandates.

964
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 2: But Hannatt had Steven Morris sit there and just go

965
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 2: through an entire take, playing just one of the tom parts,

966
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 2: then just another tom part, then just to the snare part.

967
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 3: I don't even matter.

968
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,440
Speaker 1: That's like playing piano one finger at a time, like

969
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 1: I can't it's not I don't even understand how that

970
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 1: would even walk together.

971
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 2: And Morris would just like he will. He did it

972
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 2: by I guess, imagining and hearing and then playing the

973
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:47,360
Speaker 2: other drum parts on his legs like with his sticks

974
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 2: to keep time while he just like did a kick

975
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:53,279
Speaker 2: pedal or waited for like one tom hit to come up.

976
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:56,399
Speaker 2: But he said he found it up bruised all over

977
00:54:56,440 --> 00:55:00,440
Speaker 2: his thighs because of like a day or hours of

978
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 2: doing this.

979
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 1: That's horrifying.

980
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 2: It is that would make me so insane. Just how

981
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 2: do you visualize how do you visualize a one tom

982
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:13,280
Speaker 2: hit coming up in your song?

983
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 1: I mean almost be one thing if you just dampen

984
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:19,200
Speaker 1: everything and so you continue to sort of play it

985
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 1: or hit it or whatever, and then have the one thing.

986
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:24,160
Speaker 1: But I can imagine that that was a luxury that

987
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:25,239
Speaker 1: was not afforded to him.

988
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:27,879
Speaker 2: And that's what rules about Steven Morris man. I mean,

989
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 2: you know I mentioned his nickname earlier, but the human

990
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 2: drum machine. But he is just like a phenom.

991
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 1: You know.

992
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:37,920
Speaker 2: The other person who vies to that title is Jackie

993
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:42,560
Speaker 2: Leebzzik something from can who was like a big influence

994
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 2: actually on Steven Morris but you know, he took it

995
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 2: so much further, especially in the New Order stuff where

996
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 2: it's like he's just keeping time with like sequencers and

997
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:56,360
Speaker 2: like synth parts, like just absolutely playing drum machine parts

998
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 2: and so damn fast. Did I paste this in here later?

999
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 3: I think?

1000
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 1: So?

1001
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, yeah.

1002
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 2: Like Transmission, that song is bonkers fast and he's just

1003
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,919
Speaker 2: playing sixteen notes on the high hat the entire time.

1004
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:10,320
Speaker 2: He must have been on speed.

1005
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 1: And hilariously, he looks like, are hey the strongest man

1006
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 1: in the world. He looks just like yeah. He adds

1007
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:20,879
Speaker 1: so much to this anecdote.

1008
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:21,879
Speaker 2: What a sweet boy.

1009
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:25,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. Hannah's quest for weird sounds led him to record

1010
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:27,880
Speaker 1: the sound of the elevator in the building with a

1011
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:31,760
Speaker 1: rotating Leslie speaker place inside, and also the band breaking

1012
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:35,240
Speaker 1: milk bottles in the studio and in one case placing

1013
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 1: Stephen Morris in a potentially fatal situation when he asked

1014
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: him to overdub some drum hits on She's lost control

1015
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:46,000
Speaker 1: with the can of aerosol tape cleaner discharged in time

1016
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 1: with the hits.

1017
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:48,239
Speaker 3: Can you hear that?

1018
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 2: I mean you can? Actually, that's amazing about all of this,

1019
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:55,719
Speaker 2: Like it's on the It's why those snare parts in

1020
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 2: that song sound like they're sampled. They almost they sound like, uh,

1021
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:02,319
Speaker 2: the sound that you get, yes, exactly, They sound like

1022
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:05,880
Speaker 2: what you would later get in a number of years

1023
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:09,360
Speaker 2: from like the landrum from Roland, the sound of the

1024
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:11,239
Speaker 2: closed high hats that you hear on all that early

1025
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 2: hip hop stuff. And Hannah was hearing it years earlier,

1026
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 2: and it was just like, don't worry, I'll just compromise

1027
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 2: the drummer's physical health to get that song.

1028
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 1: Yes, as more as reculled, it was absolutely stupid, like

1029
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 1: because it's just playing one of those snare drum parts.

1030
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 1: And Martin made me go into a vocal booth with

1031
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 1: a can of tape head cleaner, which is highly flammable

1032
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 1: and poisonous. So I'm in this confined space that's slowly

1033
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 1: filling up, and I come out of it completely dazed.

1034
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 1: If I lit a cigarette, that whole place would have

1035
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 1: gone up.

1036
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 3: That is so nuts.

1037
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 2: I mean, just like, yeah, literally breathing toxic fubes just

1038
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 2: to get a specific snare sound. But you know, it

1039
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 2: is just impossible to overstate how important Hanna it was

1040
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:55,680
Speaker 2: for crafting this sound. I mean, and then you get

1041
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:59,400
Speaker 2: everything from post punk except for Susie Sue, who was

1042
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 2: like contemporary with them, and I guess maybe the cure.

1043
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:06,080
Speaker 2: The Cure started I think also contemporaneously around this time

1044
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:08,360
Speaker 2: in Bajaus. But like when you think of like the

1045
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 2: sound of post punk records, that's like sort of very

1046
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 2: clinical and icy and pristine, but at the same time

1047
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 2: it sounds like it's recorded very high fidelity but in

1048
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 2: a very spooky cave. That makes sense, Yeah, very much, Okay, Yeah,

1049
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 2: I mean the Jordan in our first wave punk band,

1050
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 2: their early gigs were just like Volume, and especially parts

1051
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 2: of that I troublingly titled EP, and then Hannatt found

1052
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 2: like these ways to just completely invert the entire concept

1053
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 2: of punk as it currently was, just on its head.

1054
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 2: You know, he took all these guitar parts like you

1055
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 2: think of punk, you think of like Marshall's amps cranked

1056
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:48,960
Speaker 2: right like that's the sex pistol sound, that's the the

1057
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 2: Ramones sound. And he just took Barney's guitar and made

1058
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 2: it as teeny and like echo weee and backgrounded it

1059
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 2: essentially and draping it in plate reverb and treating it

1060
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 2: which weird pans. I mean, Someoneer at the time was

1061
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 2: a prettish guitarist by his own admission, and so a

1062
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 2: lot of his lines are not particularly athletic or thick,

1063
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 2: but you know they only did. There's only one song

1064
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:13,800
Speaker 2: on here where there are two guitar parts. It's like

1065
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 2: a single note part and chords. And in doing so,

1066
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:20,920
Speaker 2: he brought our sweet boy Hooky Peter Hook to the

1067
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:24,520
Speaker 2: four and basically coined a new style of bass playing.

1068
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 2: I mean, that's why I'm ultimately like a hook fan

1069
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:28,840
Speaker 2: over anything, because there are very few people who have

1070
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:33,000
Speaker 2: revolutionized the instrument, the electric bass, and I would say

1071
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 2: the first one is James Jamerson. Nobody played bass until

1072
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 2: he started playing it like that, until he picked up

1073
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 2: a p bass on the Motown stuff can I make

1074
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 2: a suggestion, you're gonna say John Intois or aren't.

1075
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:47,320
Speaker 3: You Oh yeah exactly.

1076
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, yeah.

1077
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:53,120
Speaker 1: Yes, but yes, as a lead instrument, I think it's

1078
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 1: a similar thing where you had a guitarist who was

1079
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:59,800
Speaker 1: more focused on rhythm slashes. Yeah, and then you opened

1080
00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:02,360
Speaker 1: the door for the bassis elite instrument.

1081
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 3: It's true.

1082
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 2: But I don't consider and this is maybe a spicy take,

1083
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 2: but I don't consider end Twistles stuff melodic. I think

1084
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:12,480
Speaker 2: it's too choppy and he's playing too many notes, like

1085
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 2: in the sense that Hook is, you know, because Hook

1086
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 2: was not a virtuoso. You can hear and I don't

1087
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 2: mean this as a pun but Hooks to those songs

1088
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 2: like Entwistle like is just all over the place in

1089
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 2: a fantastic way. He was a virtuoso. But like sing

1090
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:30,080
Speaker 2: me the bass part to like the live version of

1091
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 2: you know, any of their stuff, it's like ten thousand

1092
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 2: notes at once, you know. And yeah, so you have

1093
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:40,920
Speaker 2: like rock derived playing, you have R and B derived

1094
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:44,000
Speaker 2: bass playing. And until Peter Hook, he invented a new

1095
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:47,600
Speaker 2: vocabulary for the instrument, you know, and and all of

1096
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 2: the post punk people who would follow in his wake

1097
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:53,720
Speaker 2: picked up on that template. You know, there's like eighties

1098
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 2: post punk, goth new wave bass playing is not really

1099
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:01,560
Speaker 2: like much else at the time, and it's down to him.

1100
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:03,160
Speaker 1: You're gonna get mad, I mean, if you're gonna think

1101
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:07,960
Speaker 1: I'm being difficult. This is this is here question to

1102
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 1: what degree was the influenced by disco? Because I hear

1103
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:13,240
Speaker 1: a lot of that in his mind he was influenced

1104
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:16,920
Speaker 1: by disco. Yeah, I don't think at all.

1105
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:19,800
Speaker 2: I mean just because they well they got into in

1106
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 2: New Order was the first New Order stuff was influenced

1107
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 2: by Italo disco like but like traditional disco bass playing

1108
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:30,880
Speaker 2: is just like octaves and it's still really R and

1109
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:33,160
Speaker 2: B influenced because a lot of it was like black

1110
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 2: guys from New York, you know. And I'm not sure

1111
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:37,920
Speaker 2: how much of Hook would have heard it, but you know,

1112
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 2: it's so fascinating because he in the true ways that

1113
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:45,520
Speaker 2: so much great art is born from limitations. He was

1114
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:48,479
Speaker 2: doing it out of necessity. Bernard Summer's first guitar amp

1115
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:51,200
Speaker 2: was a cheap piece of Prior to this, he had

1116
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 2: just wired his and Hook's instruments into his grandmother's stereo

1117
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:57,560
Speaker 2: so they could hear each other, and then when the

1118
01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:00,440
Speaker 2: band started writing and rehearsing, having both both of their

1119
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:04,200
Speaker 2: amps so cranked, it essentially moved stole all the low

1120
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:08,560
Speaker 2: end out and Hook couldn't hear himself over the sound

1121
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:12,560
Speaker 2: of first Bernard's guitar amp being cranked and then his

1122
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:15,000
Speaker 2: own bad basics. Like I'm not even sure if they

1123
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:18,280
Speaker 2: were making specific bass amps at this time, or they

1124
01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 2: probably were, but it probably wouldn't been available at Manchester

1125
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 2: because like so many early bass things were just like

1126
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:26,720
Speaker 2: we took a guitar head and cranked the bass. I

1127
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:29,360
Speaker 2: think it was actually end Twistle who was probably or

1128
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:32,560
Speaker 2: Bill Wyman, who were like responsible for starting to get

1129
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 2: bass specific amplifiers made and had the circuitry voice for

1130
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 2: the instrument.

1131
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:38,800
Speaker 1: I mean, I think I know in the late sixties

1132
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:42,120
Speaker 1: they had bass amps because the baseman sticker on Paul

1133
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 1: McCartney's base on the rooftop was taken from a Fender

1134
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 1: baseman amp package.

1135
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:49,600
Speaker 3: It was it was case candy that came.

1136
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:52,080
Speaker 1: With the so I think by this time, by the

1137
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 1: time Joey Division were recording, they had bas specific amps.

1138
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:57,640
Speaker 1: But your point about them not being available right Manchester,

1139
01:02:57,640 --> 01:02:58,360
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that.

1140
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:01,160
Speaker 2: Is dramatically incorrect. The base came out in fifty two,

1141
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:06,840
Speaker 2: so I was I was incorrect, Mayakoba, But yeah, I

1142
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:07,920
Speaker 2: mean it would have been a matter of what was

1143
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 2: available to him anyway, as anyone who's ever tried to

1144
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:12,480
Speaker 2: play with it, he practice amp nose. You get no

1145
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:14,680
Speaker 2: low end out of it, but they are great for treble.

1146
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:19,760
Speaker 2: And so you know, Hook was just putting all of

1147
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 2: his basslines really high up on the neck because that

1148
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:25,080
Speaker 2: was all he could hear, and in doing so created

1149
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 2: an entire new vocabulary for the instrument. His habit of

1150
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:34,520
Speaker 2: wearing the bass comically low, in some cases around his

1151
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:37,640
Speaker 2: knees was not a sonic choice, though he admitted to

1152
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:41,320
Speaker 2: stealing that from Paul Simon, and of the clash, he said, well,

1153
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 2: you've got the bass strap high. Playing it is dead

1154
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:46,960
Speaker 2: easy when you're going down with the strap. The further

1155
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:49,480
Speaker 2: you have it, the more bum notes you play. And

1156
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:52,160
Speaker 2: I was renowned for my bum notes, but you've got

1157
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 2: to put coolness against bum notes. I play bass in

1158
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:58,800
Speaker 2: the studio up high, and when people see it, they say,

1159
01:03:58,880 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 2: my god, look at how you play bass. That is

1160
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:05,080
Speaker 2: son funny to me. The fact that he was like no,

1161
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:07,720
Speaker 2: I know the way that this instrument should be played

1162
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:09,960
Speaker 2: and the way that it is easier to play. I

1163
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:12,880
Speaker 2: will not be doing that because it looks.

1164
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:14,920
Speaker 1: Cooler, because it doesn't look as good.

1165
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:18,360
Speaker 2: Hannat Martin Hannett and Stephen Morris, the drummer, were also

1166
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:21,840
Speaker 2: advancing the cause of electronic drums in an extremely infantile

1167
01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:25,919
Speaker 2: state at this point on Unknown Pleasures. I mentioned earlier

1168
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 2: that Morris was a big fan of Can, and he

1169
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:30,200
Speaker 2: actually saw this piece of gear on the British cover

1170
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:34,120
Speaker 2: of Can's Tago Mago or Tagomego. Never heard it pronounced.

1171
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:38,560
Speaker 2: He was obsessed with the band's drummer, Jackie Leebzit and

1172
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 2: decided he had to find this piece of equipment, which

1173
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:43,959
Speaker 2: was called a sinnare. It was a synthetic snare drum

1174
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 2: thing and it doesn't even sound like a drum half

1175
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:49,320
Speaker 2: the time. Like the swishing noises, the weird swishing noises

1176
01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:54,480
Speaker 2: you hear on disorder are the sinnare because it worked

1177
01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:56,680
Speaker 2: like an actual synthesizer like a moge or whatever, where

1178
01:04:56,720 --> 01:04:59,720
Speaker 2: you can get all these filter sweeps and oscillations out

1179
01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:01,440
Speaker 2: of it. And if you just did that in the

1180
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:04,240
Speaker 2: quote unquote incorrect way. It would create all these other

1181
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:09,800
Speaker 2: worldly noises and textures. I don't know, man, plug this,

1182
01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:13,360
Speaker 2: plug this isolated Stephen Morris track in for like ten

1183
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:16,240
Speaker 2: seconds at around the end of the song, and hear

1184
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:21,360
Speaker 2: him seamlessly transitioning from this insane stream of sixteenth notes

1185
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:24,320
Speaker 2: on a high hap to really intense tom fills and

1186
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 2: then back into the beat without missing it, and again

1187
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:48,600
Speaker 2: he was like nineteen or twenty. People listening to the

1188
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:51,840
Speaker 2: Sound of Unknown Pleasures frequently use the word space, and

1189
01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:55,400
Speaker 2: that is entirely down to Martin Hannett's innovative use of

1190
01:05:55,480 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 2: reverb and several delays, but chiefly won and not always.

1191
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 2: I contradicted myself immediately for insight. He just did the

1192
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 2: time monitored track of having Ian Curtis sing through telephone

1193
01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:09,600
Speaker 2: to create the required distance. They also did that with

1194
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:12,000
Speaker 2: Bad Brains for one of the songs, but that was

1195
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:13,320
Speaker 2: because HR was in jail.

1196
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:16,439
Speaker 3: I didn't know that was a thing.

1197
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:17,680
Speaker 1: I know. I made a joke when we did the

1198
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:20,720
Speaker 1: Strokes episode about Chilian Casablanca sounding like he's singing through

1199
01:06:20,720 --> 01:06:22,600
Speaker 1: an early cell phone, but I didn't know they actually

1200
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:23,640
Speaker 1: recorded people that way.

1201
01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:26,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, people, I mean there's a whole cottage industries of

1202
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:29,240
Speaker 2: mics that people have made. I mean, back in this era,

1203
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:30,920
Speaker 2: I would have been a pain in the ass to

1204
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:34,240
Speaker 2: patch it into a mixing desk. But nowadays people just

1205
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:40,040
Speaker 2: make and sell bespoke telephone mics. Is because of the

1206
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:44,640
Speaker 2: compression and everything crunching a down of the signal that

1207
01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:48,640
Speaker 2: a telephone mic, you know, induces people do like that sound,

1208
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:51,040
Speaker 2: and so now you can just buy an old telephone

1209
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:53,600
Speaker 2: handset that is just wired into an XLR.

1210
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:54,640
Speaker 3: That's awesome.

1211
01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:57,680
Speaker 2: It's in a lot of garage rock bands. Yeah. The

1212
01:06:57,720 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 2: other thing you see is a lot is people using

1213
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:02,040
Speaker 2: the the Green Bullet, the sure mic that was a

1214
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:03,440
Speaker 2: harmonica mic.

1215
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:06,360
Speaker 3: That sounds at Jack White thing.

1216
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:12,040
Speaker 2: Well, yes, probably, but it distorted so much that you

1217
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:15,040
Speaker 2: see people use the green bullet as like a special

1218
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:17,840
Speaker 2: mic for effect. They'll have like a dedicated vocal mic

1219
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:20,240
Speaker 2: and then they'll do something else into the green bullet

1220
01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:23,400
Speaker 2: to make it sound all weird anyway. Hannett heavily relied

1221
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:26,280
Speaker 2: on a delay unit called the DMX fifteen eighty, which

1222
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:29,440
Speaker 2: is confusingly not related to the Oberheim DMX drum machine,

1223
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:34,480
Speaker 2: which Steven Morris later used in New Order Hannah's preference

1224
01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:37,040
Speaker 2: may have been because he helped design the thing, although

1225
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:40,560
Speaker 2: he did so in a typically eccentric way. Advanced Music

1226
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:44,680
Speaker 2: Systems AMS was founded by two guys former aerospace engineers

1227
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:48,520
Speaker 2: named Mark Crabtree and Stuart Nevison in seventy six, and

1228
01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:51,080
Speaker 2: for a few months they collaborated with Hannett to create

1229
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:54,880
Speaker 2: the AMS DMX fifteen eighty, and they did so by

1230
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:59,200
Speaker 2: meeting Martin Hannett in a random parking lot between where

1231
01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:02,400
Speaker 2: they were located in Burnley and where he lived in Manchester,

1232
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:04,760
Speaker 2: and he would get into the back of their car

1233
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:07,440
Speaker 2: and just rant at them about the qualities that this

1234
01:08:07,520 --> 01:08:09,600
Speaker 2: delay would have, and then he would get out and

1235
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:12,720
Speaker 2: drive home, and this went on for months. The recording

1236
01:08:12,760 --> 01:08:16,439
Speaker 2: setup at Strawberry Studios had pretty standard pieces of analog

1237
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:19,960
Speaker 2: reverb and delay stuff. They had even tides, They had

1238
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:23,439
Speaker 2: tape phase simulator, they had emt plate reverbs, they had

1239
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:26,360
Speaker 2: an actual tape echo, and they had something called the

1240
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:30,000
Speaker 2: Marshall time modulator, which Peter Hook started calling the Marshall

1241
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:34,360
Speaker 2: time wasterau how finnicky it was. But the DMX fifteen

1242
01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:38,240
Speaker 2: to eighty was the world's first microprocessor control digital delay

1243
01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:41,880
Speaker 2: and I think I've ranted about tape delay on this

1244
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:46,160
Speaker 2: very podcast before, but that has achieved. The early rockabilly

1245
01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:49,519
Speaker 2: records achieved the slap back effect, and Pink Floyd used

1246
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:52,880
Speaker 2: tape delay, and like the psychedelic tape delay that you

1247
01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:56,320
Speaker 2: hear is accomplished by having a second reel of tape

1248
01:08:56,800 --> 01:09:01,760
Speaker 2: running varying degrees of lateness in accordance to the main

1249
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:04,559
Speaker 2: input signal. Right, so you get a you hear someone

1250
01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:07,559
Speaker 2: go ah, and then like a millisecond later, the second

1251
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:10,839
Speaker 2: reel of tape goes ah, and you increase that distance

1252
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:13,320
Speaker 2: at very low settings. It's it's what we call slap

1253
01:09:13,320 --> 01:09:18,120
Speaker 2: back effect where it, yeah, it's almost indetectable as an

1254
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:20,559
Speaker 2: actual copy of the sound because it's occurring like a

1255
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:24,439
Speaker 2: millisecond after. And then you know later when they introduced

1256
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:29,800
Speaker 2: like the space echo and once the other big correct well,

1257
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:32,880
Speaker 2: the Binsenecarek is actually a rotating drum, which is a

1258
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:38,360
Speaker 2: different style of anyway, with all of those delays, because

1259
01:09:38,400 --> 01:09:41,520
Speaker 2: they were tape based, and because tape is a decaying

1260
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:45,720
Speaker 2: source that literally degrades every time you use it, there

1261
01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:49,679
Speaker 2: were all kinds of pitch inconsistencies and wobble or warble,

1262
01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:52,559
Speaker 2: which you know people have an affinity for, but was

1263
01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:56,280
Speaker 2: not you know, accurate to the pitch. So when the

1264
01:09:56,360 --> 01:09:59,599
Speaker 2: digital delay came in, it was a huge deal for

1265
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:03,000
Speaker 2: engine ears and gear nerds because suddenly you had these

1266
01:10:03,120 --> 01:10:07,559
Speaker 2: very pristine repeats that could then be pitch shifted, so

1267
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:10,280
Speaker 2: you could have a drum hit and then you could

1268
01:10:10,320 --> 01:10:15,920
Speaker 2: have the drum hits delay pitched up differently, and that

1269
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:19,880
Speaker 2: was just radical. And what Handa did with it was

1270
01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:22,920
Speaker 2: to on the drums at least, was to pan those

1271
01:10:22,920 --> 01:10:26,599
Speaker 2: two signals hard, so you have the acoustic drum hit

1272
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:30,240
Speaker 2: in one ear and then the digital delay of signal

1273
01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:32,200
Speaker 2: of it in the other ear, and that just gave

1274
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:34,960
Speaker 2: all of this auspaciousness that you could only previously achieve

1275
01:10:35,040 --> 01:10:37,639
Speaker 2: with reverb. Hand It also used it as an early

1276
01:10:37,760 --> 01:10:41,200
Speaker 2: sampler because with enough time you could get like an

1277
01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:43,080
Speaker 2: isolated you know, if you set it to long enough,

1278
01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:45,360
Speaker 2: you couldet an isolated signal. So you would hit a

1279
01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:48,200
Speaker 2: guitar chord or hit a snarehead bop, and then like

1280
01:10:49,280 --> 01:10:53,000
Speaker 2: an appreciable amount of time later, you would hear bop

1281
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:58,000
Speaker 2: and he would record the second hit and it trigger

1282
01:10:58,120 --> 01:11:00,800
Speaker 2: that with a keyboard, which is basically he invented He

1283
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:04,200
Speaker 2: kind of invented sampling really, so he would take just

1284
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:06,800
Speaker 2: the delay signal and then be able to reproduce that

1285
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:10,040
Speaker 2: with a trigger with a keyboard, and that's what he

1286
01:11:10,080 --> 01:11:13,760
Speaker 2: did with You can hear New Dawn Fades, the weird

1287
01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:15,960
Speaker 2: song of Weird intro to that is what he did

1288
01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:19,439
Speaker 2: with Sumner's guitar, and the Marshall time modulator was a

1289
01:11:19,439 --> 01:11:22,559
Speaker 2: thing to like they basically just made drums not sound

1290
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:26,160
Speaker 2: like drums. Steven Morris would said, they put the toms

1291
01:11:26,200 --> 01:11:28,320
Speaker 2: through it and they would just get these very dead

1292
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:32,720
Speaker 2: like sounds, and all of this just went into the

1293
01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:36,160
Speaker 2: drum mix and the final mix, which is just I mean,

1294
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:39,640
Speaker 2: this record still sounds incredible and weird, and like if

1295
01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:41,959
Speaker 2: you listen to it on good headphones are really good speakers,

1296
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:44,280
Speaker 2: you can really hear the depth of what he was doing.

1297
01:11:44,360 --> 01:11:46,720
Speaker 2: And when you put that up against like, yeah, dude,

1298
01:11:46,720 --> 01:11:50,120
Speaker 2: a Ramones record, it's insane. It sounds like it was

1299
01:11:50,120 --> 01:12:00,720
Speaker 2: done by aliens. Whoo edit around that, Thank you for that.

1300
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:03,120
Speaker 1: That was Heigel's techno wank corner.

1301
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:10,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, Hig's gear corner. Beata as you meditate on that

1302
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:13,360
Speaker 2: we'll be right back with more too much information after

1303
01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:14,120
Speaker 2: these messages.

1304
01:12:31,320 --> 01:12:35,080
Speaker 1: Well, from the sounds, we go to the words everybody,

1305
01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:37,479
Speaker 1: let's all have a group hug before we delve deep

1306
01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:40,400
Speaker 1: into the psyche of one Ian Curtis.

1307
01:12:40,439 --> 01:12:42,519
Speaker 2: Here we go all the fund's over.

1308
01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:47,400
Speaker 1: Yes. Because the band were more concerned with volume than

1309
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:50,120
Speaker 1: energy in the early days, it wasn't until the recording

1310
01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:52,439
Speaker 1: process began that the other three members of the band

1311
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:58,240
Speaker 1: actually heard what Ian Curtis was singing about. And h boy,

1312
01:12:58,320 --> 01:13:02,640
Speaker 1: g golly, that must have been Nah, quite an experience

1313
01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:06,559
Speaker 1: he's saying what. As we mentioned up top Ian Curtis

1314
01:13:06,720 --> 01:13:09,600
Speaker 1: was an intensely literate young man, and he was extremely

1315
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:13,320
Speaker 1: influenced by writers like Franz Kofka, J. G. Ballard, and

1316
01:13:13,439 --> 01:13:18,160
Speaker 1: Nicolaia Googol, whose works he rated for song titles like Atrocity, Exhibition,

1317
01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:23,960
Speaker 1: Colony and Dead Souls. Disorder opens with the couplet I've

1318
01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:26,200
Speaker 1: been waiting for a guide to come and take me

1319
01:13:26,280 --> 01:13:29,439
Speaker 1: by the hand. Could these sensations make me feel the

1320
01:13:29,479 --> 01:13:34,080
Speaker 1: pleasures of a normal man? God? That's crushing. It's been

1321
01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:37,080
Speaker 1: interpreted by some as alluding to Curtis's struggles both with

1322
01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:41,800
Speaker 1: the symptoms and treatments for his epilepsy and depression. A

1323
01:13:41,880 --> 01:13:45,120
Speaker 1: few lines later, he sings, lights are flashing, cars are

1324
01:13:45,160 --> 01:13:49,919
Speaker 1: crashing getting frequent. Now I've got the spirit, lose the feeling,

1325
01:13:50,520 --> 01:13:54,080
Speaker 1: let it out somehow, which you pause. It is almost

1326
01:13:54,120 --> 01:13:56,640
Speaker 1: certainly a reference to his seizures, as well as J. G.

1327
01:13:56,800 --> 01:14:00,320
Speaker 1: Ballard's Crash, which was in nineteen seventy three novel about

1328
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:04,160
Speaker 1: people with sexual fetishes for car crashes. Interesting.

1329
01:14:04,240 --> 01:14:06,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean lights are flashing getting frequent now,

1330
01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:10,439
Speaker 2: like at the time his seizures were increasing. Again, the

1331
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:15,360
Speaker 2: band's timeline was so short. Yeah, first gig in seventy seven,

1332
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:19,040
Speaker 2: and by you know, late seventy eight, they were like, oh,

1333
01:14:19,080 --> 01:14:21,080
Speaker 2: you have epilepsy, Like you will not be able to

1334
01:14:21,360 --> 01:14:23,400
Speaker 2: live a normal life and continue in this band. And

1335
01:14:23,920 --> 01:14:28,439
Speaker 2: it did get progressively worse as well, sadly discuss later.

1336
01:14:30,360 --> 01:14:35,639
Speaker 1: Insight contains a staggeringly depressing first verse, guess your dreams

1337
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:39,760
Speaker 1: always end. They don't rise up just to send. But

1338
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:43,479
Speaker 1: I don't care anymore. I've lost the will to want more.

1339
01:14:44,160 --> 01:14:47,160
Speaker 1: I'm not afraid, not at all. I watched them all

1340
01:14:47,240 --> 01:14:53,320
Speaker 1: as they fall. All the stuff was something of a

1341
01:14:53,360 --> 01:14:56,400
Speaker 1: shock for Ian's band it's because Ann could be as

1342
01:14:56,520 --> 01:14:59,200
Speaker 1: lavish as any one of them, and the piss taking,

1343
01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:02,400
Speaker 1: heavy drinking culture of the North meant that his bandmates

1344
01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:04,439
Speaker 1: were frequently in the dark. As to the depths of

1345
01:15:04,479 --> 01:15:08,680
Speaker 1: his struggles, numbness and lack of feeling are recurring motifs.

1346
01:15:09,400 --> 01:15:13,400
Speaker 1: Curtis sings the strange too much, can't take much more. Oh,

1347
01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:17,360
Speaker 1: I've walked on water, run through fire, can't seem to

1348
01:15:17,360 --> 01:15:20,280
Speaker 1: feel it anymore. On New Dawn Phase, which has become

1349
01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:23,719
Speaker 1: one of the most covered and reused of Unknown Pleasures tracks,

1350
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:27,400
Speaker 1: one of the album's most oft discussed lyrics is She's

1351
01:15:27,479 --> 01:15:30,640
Speaker 1: Lost Control, which is sort of cruelly ironic in that

1352
01:15:30,760 --> 01:15:34,640
Speaker 1: Curtis is singing about an epileptic woman having seizures and

1353
01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:39,439
Speaker 1: rumordho have died afterwards, which he saw firsthand at one

1354
01:15:39,439 --> 01:15:43,240
Speaker 1: of his day jobs as an assistant disablement resettlement officer,

1355
01:15:43,800 --> 01:15:47,320
Speaker 1: a job he started in September nineteen seventy seven. He'd

1356
01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:50,040
Speaker 1: later write in a March nineteen eighty letter, I feel

1357
01:15:50,080 --> 01:15:51,880
Speaker 1: it more as I used to work with people who

1358
01:15:51,920 --> 01:15:55,040
Speaker 1: had epilepsy, among others, and every month used to visit

1359
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:57,439
Speaker 1: the David Lewis Center as part of my job as

1360
01:15:57,479 --> 01:16:00,559
Speaker 1: a medical center. All of the very bad cases are

1361
01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:03,360
Speaker 1: there for treatment or just to be looked after. It

1362
01:16:03,439 --> 01:16:09,280
Speaker 1: left terrible pictures in my mind. It left salable pictures

1363
01:16:09,320 --> 01:16:09,960
Speaker 1: in my mind.

1364
01:16:10,160 --> 01:16:13,280
Speaker 2: You pick up that job, and then like a year later,

1365
01:16:13,880 --> 01:16:15,360
Speaker 2: you find out you have epilepsy.

1366
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:19,439
Speaker 1: Yeah. Curtis added another verse to the song while the

1367
01:16:19,439 --> 01:16:22,519
Speaker 1: band were recording it, leaving it a lyrical chronicle of

1368
01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:26,719
Speaker 1: his experience before and after his diagnosis. What was the verse.

1369
01:16:26,880 --> 01:16:29,639
Speaker 2: It's the whole second verse where it basically changes it

1370
01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:33,040
Speaker 2: from oh, it like changes the perspective of it to

1371
01:16:33,280 --> 01:16:36,880
Speaker 2: like a witness rather than first firsthand. Wow, I don't know.

1372
01:16:37,840 --> 01:16:38,960
Speaker 2: Do you want me to look at up? Do you

1373
01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:39,879
Speaker 2: want to get sad?

1374
01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:43,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's get sad. Let's get sad. Good sad folks.

1375
01:16:44,280 --> 01:16:48,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the second verse puts it into first person.

1376
01:16:48,160 --> 01:16:50,080
Speaker 2: He says. Then I had to phone her friend to

1377
01:16:50,120 --> 01:16:53,800
Speaker 2: state my case and say she's lost control again. And

1378
01:16:53,880 --> 01:16:56,160
Speaker 2: she showed up all the errors and mistakes and said

1379
01:16:56,160 --> 01:16:59,280
Speaker 2: I've lost control again. And she expressed herself in many

1380
01:16:59,280 --> 01:17:02,760
Speaker 2: different ways until she lost control again and walked upon

1381
01:17:02,840 --> 01:17:07,920
Speaker 2: the edge of no escape and laughed, I've lost control again. God,

1382
01:17:08,000 --> 01:17:10,200
Speaker 2: that song is so haunting. One of the first things

1383
01:17:10,240 --> 01:17:11,080
Speaker 2: I learned on bass.

1384
01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:12,800
Speaker 1: Actually, oh wow, And.

1385
01:17:12,800 --> 01:17:15,400
Speaker 2: It's funny because it's famous. They like it's got a cool,

1386
01:17:15,439 --> 01:17:19,280
Speaker 2: like droney part like that, and love the baseline to

1387
01:17:19,320 --> 01:17:22,920
Speaker 2: leveled Harris apart. Both have like an open string open

1388
01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:25,960
Speaker 2: d ringing while he plays the riff on the G string,

1389
01:17:26,400 --> 01:17:29,080
Speaker 2: and he said that there's like bum Peter Hook said

1390
01:17:29,080 --> 01:17:31,120
Speaker 2: that there's like bum notes on it because he couldn't

1391
01:17:31,120 --> 01:17:33,960
Speaker 2: play very well at the time, and so subsequently they

1392
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:36,880
Speaker 2: would over dub all of those drones like he would.

1393
01:17:37,040 --> 01:17:38,840
Speaker 2: He would do the Martin Hannett thing on New Order

1394
01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:41,360
Speaker 2: where he would play the bass riff one of the

1395
01:17:41,439 --> 01:17:44,519
Speaker 2: riffs first and then overdubbed like the drony notes. He

1396
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:47,160
Speaker 2: was also so famous for his use of the chorus pedal. Man,

1397
01:17:47,200 --> 01:17:48,920
Speaker 2: but you should put that in later and not what

1398
01:17:49,040 --> 01:17:52,240
Speaker 2: we're talking about in Curtis is depressing ish. But you

1399
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:55,200
Speaker 2: know when you hear that like eighties chorus bass tone,

1400
01:17:55,240 --> 01:17:59,479
Speaker 2: that is that's our boy hooky Uh yeah, Man, why

1401
01:17:59,479 --> 01:18:02,320
Speaker 2: don't you just keep going on talking about I remember nothing.

1402
01:18:02,560 --> 01:18:04,120
Speaker 1: I mean, she's always control though. I just want to

1403
01:18:04,120 --> 01:18:07,000
Speaker 1: say that footage of him performing on I don't even

1404
01:18:07,000 --> 01:18:12,000
Speaker 1: remember what show it is is so so upsetting to watch.

1405
01:18:12,160 --> 01:18:14,800
Speaker 2: It's yeah, man, it's horrible. You watch the light drain

1406
01:18:14,880 --> 01:18:18,479
Speaker 2: from his eyes in between the first televised appearance they

1407
01:18:18,479 --> 01:18:20,680
Speaker 2: made on the Tony Wilson thing and then that this

1408
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:23,400
Speaker 2: later thing from just like a year not even maybe

1409
01:18:23,439 --> 01:18:27,639
Speaker 2: not even a year later. Jesus, it's it is very sad.

1410
01:18:28,160 --> 01:18:30,479
Speaker 1: And was it a theorize that his dance moves, if

1411
01:18:30,479 --> 01:18:33,880
Speaker 1: you can call it, that were sort of inspiredly.

1412
01:18:32,960 --> 01:18:35,080
Speaker 3: By I mean that's the theory.

1413
01:18:36,439 --> 01:18:39,400
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if I think his widow, Debora, who

1414
01:18:39,640 --> 01:18:45,320
Speaker 2: wrote her own deeply sad biography about living with him,

1415
01:18:46,400 --> 01:18:49,320
Speaker 2: I think she said that she had never seen him

1416
01:18:49,439 --> 01:18:51,800
Speaker 2: like link the two in that kind of way. But

1417
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:54,559
Speaker 2: you know, there were there were certainly instances, and we'll

1418
01:18:54,560 --> 01:18:57,040
Speaker 2: talk about one later where you know, he had a

1419
01:18:57,040 --> 01:19:00,800
Speaker 2: seizure on stage and people did not cotton onto what

1420
01:19:00,880 --> 01:19:03,320
Speaker 2: was happening because of the way that he danced.

1421
01:19:03,880 --> 01:19:11,320
Speaker 1: Jesus, well, I remember nothing. Meanwhile, Oh it was equally bleak. Great, Okay,

1422
01:19:11,439 --> 01:19:14,120
Speaker 1: I thought I thought we had a respite here. You're right,

1423
01:19:14,200 --> 01:19:17,599
Speaker 1: Curtis sings variously at points, get weak all the time.

1424
01:19:18,040 --> 01:19:21,400
Speaker 1: May just past the time, me in my own world.

1425
01:19:21,920 --> 01:19:25,600
Speaker 1: You there beside and trapped in a cage and surrendered

1426
01:19:25,640 --> 01:19:28,920
Speaker 1: too soon, me in my own world, the one that

1427
01:19:28,960 --> 01:19:29,479
Speaker 1: you knew.

1428
01:19:29,840 --> 01:19:32,600
Speaker 2: Oh my, it's so insane because like in that in

1429
01:19:32,640 --> 01:19:36,400
Speaker 2: this John Savage oral history. I haven't read Debrah's a book,

1430
01:19:36,479 --> 01:19:39,680
Speaker 2: but you know, when his affair happened, he was like

1431
01:19:40,960 --> 01:19:45,280
Speaker 2: still hanging out with Debra and their daughter, you know,

1432
01:19:45,360 --> 01:19:48,200
Speaker 2: and so so much of this was like literally him

1433
01:19:48,680 --> 01:19:51,840
Speaker 2: going through this depression and battling epilepsy, which again over

1434
01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:56,559
Speaker 2: the course of like a year in change, while his

1435
01:19:56,560 --> 01:20:00,280
Speaker 2: marriage was falling apart, and you know, and they were

1436
01:20:00,640 --> 01:20:03,840
Speaker 2: he got married at nineteen, I think she was sixteen,

1437
01:20:04,520 --> 01:20:09,200
Speaker 2: and like just totally unequipped to navigate this terrain in

1438
01:20:09,240 --> 01:20:11,960
Speaker 2: your personally or as part of a marriage. And it's

1439
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:15,080
Speaker 2: just so sad hearing her talk about like, yeah, he

1440
01:20:15,080 --> 01:20:17,439
Speaker 2: would like go in his room and write, or I

1441
01:20:17,479 --> 01:20:21,360
Speaker 2: would have to wait out hearing him like I would

1442
01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:24,960
Speaker 2: have to watch against seizures, and just it just sounds

1443
01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:30,200
Speaker 2: like such a thoroughly miserable way to live. I have

1444
01:20:30,240 --> 01:20:31,840
Speaker 2: no insight to add to that. I'm sorry.

1445
01:20:32,880 --> 01:20:37,600
Speaker 1: Just so you too, you wrote here this is a

1446
01:20:37,720 --> 01:20:40,719
Speaker 1: very insightful paragraph. As you say, it's important to remember

1447
01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:43,639
Speaker 1: that the stigma surrounding people with epilepsy during this era

1448
01:20:43,840 --> 01:20:45,160
Speaker 1: was hardly enlightened.

1449
01:20:45,400 --> 01:20:46,240
Speaker 3: I didn't know any of this.

1450
01:20:46,640 --> 01:20:49,960
Speaker 1: In the United States, for example, eighteen states provided for

1451
01:20:50,040 --> 01:20:54,479
Speaker 1: the sterilization on eugenic grounds of people with epilepsy, while

1452
01:20:54,479 --> 01:20:56,840
Speaker 1: in the UK in this again in this country. In

1453
01:20:56,880 --> 01:20:59,880
Speaker 1: the UK, there was a law preventing people from epilepsy

1454
01:20:59,880 --> 01:21:04,760
Speaker 1: for marrying and was only repealed in nineteen seventy, less

1455
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:09,080
Speaker 1: than ten years before Ian Curtis's diagnosis. Meeting notes from

1456
01:21:09,120 --> 01:21:11,479
Speaker 1: the Royal College of Physicians and the UK and in

1457
01:21:11,560 --> 01:21:15,479
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight described those with severe epilepsy as quote

1458
01:21:15,520 --> 01:21:19,440
Speaker 1: a major problem in terms of inequalities and treatment access.

1459
01:21:19,800 --> 01:21:23,519
Speaker 1: Even as treatment conditions improved, the stigma still remained. A

1460
01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:26,960
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four survey across the Netherlands, the United Kingdom

1461
01:21:27,000 --> 01:21:32,560
Speaker 1: and Ireland among a group of professionals including psychologists, occupational physicians,

1462
01:21:33,040 --> 01:21:37,200
Speaker 1: vocational therapists and social workers, revealed that fifteen percent of

1463
01:21:37,240 --> 01:21:41,560
Speaker 1: the seventy six respondents believed in quote, the epileptic personality

1464
01:21:41,960 --> 01:21:46,040
Speaker 1: and thirty two percent believe that epilepsy affected intellectual performance.

1465
01:21:46,520 --> 01:21:49,200
Speaker 1: Notions not borne out by the science behind the condition.

1466
01:21:49,680 --> 01:21:52,160
Speaker 1: I had no idea there was any kind of stigma

1467
01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:53,879
Speaker 1: behind epilepsy.

1468
01:21:54,400 --> 01:21:56,280
Speaker 2: So they thought it was all part of that UK

1469
01:21:56,360 --> 01:21:58,760
Speaker 2: culture where they were just like they called them like spastics,

1470
01:21:59,080 --> 01:22:03,479
Speaker 2: your beloved John and mocked them frequently to his own

1471
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:06,840
Speaker 2: amusement and that of others, including to the point where

1472
01:22:06,880 --> 01:22:10,080
Speaker 2: Paul McCartney included a wonderful clip of just such a

1473
01:22:10,120 --> 01:22:14,760
Speaker 2: mocking in that video for that song. Sorry now I'm

1474
01:22:14,840 --> 01:22:18,519
Speaker 2: just punching, punching down. No, it was awful. I mean

1475
01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:22,240
Speaker 2: they yeah, they were lumped into like spastics and and

1476
01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:23,719
Speaker 2: uh and that's the point. But this whole thing about

1477
01:22:23,720 --> 01:22:28,320
Speaker 2: having epileptic personality personalities like they basically thought it was like, oh,

1478
01:22:28,360 --> 01:22:31,040
Speaker 2: that's the thing that like poor people develop, or like

1479
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:34,600
Speaker 2: the lower classes develop, and they thought they were like

1480
01:22:35,120 --> 01:22:36,280
Speaker 2: intellectually inferior.

1481
01:22:36,400 --> 01:22:37,200
Speaker 1: I had never heard that.

1482
01:22:37,600 --> 01:22:41,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's really tragic. And again you add this

1483
01:22:41,360 --> 01:22:44,680
Speaker 2: to like, dude, if antidepressants and anti anxiety pills are

1484
01:22:44,720 --> 01:22:48,000
Speaker 2: like throwing a dart at a map today, and as

1485
01:22:48,040 --> 01:22:50,839
Speaker 2: someone who's been on most of them, I can attest

1486
01:22:50,960 --> 01:22:54,320
Speaker 2: that they are. And five doctors will be like, yeah,

1487
01:22:54,360 --> 01:22:58,639
Speaker 2: let's try these three different things in different dosages. Come back,

1488
01:22:58,920 --> 01:23:02,280
Speaker 2: tell me how that happened, how that went. By the way,

1489
01:23:02,320 --> 01:23:06,280
Speaker 2: that's two hundred dollars. I just imagined how awful that

1490
01:23:06,320 --> 01:23:07,880
Speaker 2: would have been in the seventies man. I mean they

1491
01:23:07,960 --> 01:23:11,320
Speaker 2: just used it was like a shotgun, sledgehammer. It wasn't

1492
01:23:11,360 --> 01:23:14,200
Speaker 2: just like because even in like you know, the stuff

1493
01:23:14,240 --> 01:23:17,080
Speaker 2: that they put Nick Drake on for his depression was

1494
01:23:17,200 --> 01:23:21,439
Speaker 2: so just like deadening that They're like basic approach was

1495
01:23:21,479 --> 01:23:24,000
Speaker 2: not like how can we affect the brain chemistry? It

1496
01:23:24,080 --> 01:23:26,080
Speaker 2: was just like, how can we make it not work

1497
01:23:26,800 --> 01:23:29,519
Speaker 2: to the point where it won't hurt anymore? And so

1498
01:23:29,600 --> 01:23:33,519
Speaker 2: they were just putting them on you know, anything up

1499
01:23:33,560 --> 01:23:38,559
Speaker 2: to in including like lithium and thorazine and just being like, yeah, see.

1500
01:23:38,360 --> 01:23:41,200
Speaker 1: How that works. And you add contributing to all this,

1501
01:23:41,360 --> 01:23:45,439
Speaker 1: the whole Northern Man close lipped attitude didn't really help

1502
01:23:45,520 --> 01:23:48,439
Speaker 1: much either for Ian Curtis. So we ended up joining

1503
01:23:48,479 --> 01:23:51,719
Speaker 1: the British Epilepsy Association and for a time was willing

1504
01:23:51,720 --> 01:23:54,720
Speaker 1: to discuss his condition publicly. Curtis didn't want to be

1505
01:23:54,760 --> 01:23:56,800
Speaker 1: a burden most of all, and so he hid most

1506
01:23:56,840 --> 01:24:00,800
Speaker 1: of his struggles from his bandmates. In particular particular theme

1507
01:24:00,840 --> 01:24:05,240
Speaker 1: in Peter Hook's autobiography Unknown Pleasures Inside Joy Division is guilt.

1508
01:24:06,000 --> 01:24:10,760
Speaker 1: He accuses himself, Sumner, and Morris of quote selfishness, stupidity,

1509
01:24:10,920 --> 01:24:14,040
Speaker 1: and willful ignorance, and semi jokes that he could have

1510
01:24:14,080 --> 01:24:16,680
Speaker 1: called the book he said he was all right, so

1511
01:24:16,760 --> 01:24:17,519
Speaker 1: we carried on.

1512
01:24:23,280 --> 01:24:26,559
Speaker 2: Getting back to the actual album. Hook and Sumner initially

1513
01:24:26,640 --> 01:24:29,400
Speaker 2: hated what Hannatt had done to their record. They accused

1514
01:24:29,439 --> 01:24:33,000
Speaker 2: him of turning it into a Pink Floyd record, which

1515
01:24:33,040 --> 01:24:36,720
Speaker 2: is hilarious, and Hook would later describe their hatred as

1516
01:24:36,840 --> 01:24:40,200
Speaker 2: the time we were most united. But he did allow,

1517
01:24:40,400 --> 01:24:42,960
Speaker 2: he has allowed in his later years that you know,

1518
01:24:43,040 --> 01:24:45,760
Speaker 2: what Hannett ended up doing with their raw materials was,

1519
01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:49,000
Speaker 2: you know, nothing short of revolutionary in that he was

1520
01:24:49,560 --> 01:24:52,360
Speaker 2: like the fifth member of the band in that regard.

1521
01:24:53,080 --> 01:24:55,240
Speaker 2: I wasn't actually able to trace down a hard source

1522
01:24:55,280 --> 01:24:59,080
Speaker 2: that could prove that the Unknown Pleasures is a Marcel

1523
01:24:59,160 --> 01:25:02,880
Speaker 2: Proust reference, though that phrase appears in Swan's Way. But

1524
01:25:02,960 --> 01:25:05,920
Speaker 2: I did find a hilarious quote from Stephen Morris about it,

1525
01:25:06,280 --> 01:25:08,679
Speaker 2: where he said, I've heard people say that the title

1526
01:25:08,760 --> 01:25:11,519
Speaker 2: Unknown Pleasures was a Proust reference, which is a good one.

1527
01:25:11,960 --> 01:25:14,240
Speaker 2: We hadn't read much Proust. I think it was just

1528
01:25:14,360 --> 01:25:17,360
Speaker 2: two words. It wasn't dug out of a book. If anything,

1529
01:25:17,720 --> 01:25:23,160
Speaker 2: prus Nick did off us. So that cover the album

1530
01:25:23,280 --> 01:25:26,879
Speaker 2: cover of all time. Maybe you're gonna say, Sergeant Pepper's

1531
01:25:26,960 --> 01:25:27,479
Speaker 2: I know you are?

1532
01:25:28,040 --> 01:25:32,000
Speaker 1: Ah, I mean this does as much with less.

1533
01:25:32,080 --> 01:25:35,080
Speaker 2: I would say, yes, that was exactly how I was

1534
01:25:35,120 --> 01:25:36,680
Speaker 2: going to counter you if you came out with that

1535
01:25:36,800 --> 01:25:38,200
Speaker 2: ridiculous bullshit.

1536
01:25:40,560 --> 01:25:41,200
Speaker 1: Abby Road.

1537
01:25:41,320 --> 01:25:44,880
Speaker 2: However, the white album, however, I haven't seen very many

1538
01:25:44,960 --> 01:25:47,880
Speaker 2: white album T shirts, I'll tell you that. Nor have

1539
01:25:47,920 --> 01:25:51,439
Speaker 2: I seen Disney attempt to market Oh man, they should.

1540
01:25:52,240 --> 01:25:54,639
Speaker 2: They should market an Abbey Road T shirt where it's

1541
01:25:54,640 --> 01:25:56,960
Speaker 2: like Mickey Goofy the duck.

1542
01:25:57,560 --> 01:26:00,720
Speaker 3: That's money on the table. If they haven't that fo One.

1543
01:26:01,080 --> 01:26:06,960
Speaker 1: The cat, the cat choke it so much mileage.

1544
01:26:07,560 --> 01:26:10,880
Speaker 2: That is an image of the radio waves from the

1545
01:26:10,960 --> 01:26:18,880
Speaker 2: first recognized pulsar friend of the pod CP. I bought

1546
01:26:18,920 --> 01:26:21,639
Speaker 2: a copy of this record at at our beloved Human

1547
01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:24,760
Speaker 2: Head Records in Brooklyn in New York. Go check them out.

1548
01:26:25,000 --> 01:26:28,280
Speaker 2: Shouts to Travis like a decade or at least, and

1549
01:26:28,600 --> 01:26:31,519
Speaker 2: I was at a bar. Then subsequently with my Fines

1550
01:26:31,720 --> 01:26:34,000
Speaker 2: in my tote bag. I'm not sure if it was

1551
01:26:34,200 --> 01:26:37,720
Speaker 2: a New Yorker tote possibly it was. And I just

1552
01:26:37,880 --> 01:26:40,400
Speaker 2: struck up a conversation with this very well meaning guy

1553
01:26:40,520 --> 01:26:42,680
Speaker 2: next to me at the bar, and I was just like,

1554
01:26:42,720 --> 01:26:44,479
Speaker 2: he was like, oh, you guys, we bought some records.

1555
01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:46,000
Speaker 2: I was like, oh yeah, human, head right down the

1556
01:26:46,000 --> 01:26:48,360
Speaker 2: street check them out. And I pulled out I pulled

1557
01:26:48,400 --> 01:26:51,360
Speaker 2: out my my Fines and went through them. And when

1558
01:26:51,360 --> 01:26:54,360
Speaker 2: I pulled out Unknown Pleasures, he was like, Wow, that's

1559
01:26:54,360 --> 01:27:01,960
Speaker 2: a that's a cool album cover. Starcastic No, totally genuine

1560
01:27:02,080 --> 01:27:04,320
Speaker 2: and because I was like, yeah, dude, that's like the

1561
01:27:04,560 --> 01:27:07,720
Speaker 2: album cover. Have you you've not seen it? He was

1562
01:27:07,760 --> 01:27:09,840
Speaker 2: like yeah, I don't know. I just it's like someone

1563
01:27:09,920 --> 01:27:12,800
Speaker 2: describing like the Star Wars title crawl as being like,

1564
01:27:12,880 --> 01:27:14,200
Speaker 2: that's a cool intro.

1565
01:27:15,720 --> 01:27:20,439
Speaker 1: Where this duck dug no tradesman. Oh yeah, oh he's

1566
01:27:20,439 --> 01:27:21,160
Speaker 1: a djer there.

1567
01:27:21,680 --> 01:27:22,519
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah.

1568
01:27:22,600 --> 01:27:23,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1569
01:27:23,600 --> 01:27:27,759
Speaker 2: It's one of the most it's understatement, like the most

1570
01:27:27,960 --> 01:27:31,600
Speaker 2: iconic of all time in just terms of like remixes

1571
01:27:31,720 --> 01:27:34,280
Speaker 2: and parodies that have gone over. It's definitely higher than

1572
01:27:34,320 --> 01:27:37,000
Speaker 2: Black Flag, and I've seen a lot of black parodies

1573
01:27:37,760 --> 01:27:44,439
Speaker 2: My favorite was Beach Boys with the barsh isn't He

1574
01:27:44,439 --> 01:27:47,439
Speaker 2: In twenty twelve marketed a T shirt that had the

1575
01:27:47,439 --> 01:27:50,720
Speaker 2: Mickey mouse head spelled out in the waves, and then

1576
01:27:50,800 --> 01:27:54,200
Speaker 2: yanked it two days later. So if you have one

1577
01:27:54,240 --> 01:27:55,840
Speaker 2: of those, you're sitting pretty.

1578
01:27:57,640 --> 01:28:00,680
Speaker 1: The original image came from Bernard's Sumner's job at the

1579
01:28:00,720 --> 01:28:04,000
Speaker 1: time near the Manchester Central Library, so when he was

1580
01:28:04,000 --> 01:28:05,920
Speaker 1: born at work, he'd nick out for a bit and

1581
01:28:05,960 --> 01:28:08,840
Speaker 1: browse the stacks. He said, I was always looking at

1582
01:28:08,880 --> 01:28:11,080
Speaker 1: space stuff, and when I saw that image, I thought

1583
01:28:11,360 --> 01:28:13,880
Speaker 1: that would make a really great album cover. When we

1584
01:28:13,960 --> 01:28:16,400
Speaker 1: made the album, I took the image to Peter Saville

1585
01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:19,559
Speaker 1: and said, how about this for a sleeve. The image

1586
01:28:19,560 --> 01:28:23,280
Speaker 1: originally came from the Cambridge Encyclopedia of Astronomy nineteen seventy

1587
01:28:23,320 --> 01:28:27,759
Speaker 1: seven edition, and Saville's great innovation was to color reverse it.

1588
01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:29,599
Speaker 1: It was originally black on white.

1589
01:28:30,520 --> 01:28:33,960
Speaker 2: I hate that so much. I know, there's just the

1590
01:28:34,120 --> 01:28:37,880
Speaker 2: ultimate like Andy Warhol bullsh like I bring you a

1591
01:28:37,920 --> 01:28:41,080
Speaker 2: fully formed image that someone else made, and you're like, well,

1592
01:28:41,080 --> 01:28:44,320
Speaker 2: I better recontextualize it by simply flipping the colors. You

1593
01:28:44,360 --> 01:28:46,280
Speaker 2: see what it is, and then I will make money

1594
01:28:46,280 --> 01:28:48,000
Speaker 2: off of it for the rest of time.

1595
01:28:48,960 --> 01:28:52,240
Speaker 1: But he was right. He was right, He was very right.

1596
01:28:52,479 --> 01:28:53,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, it wouldn't.

1597
01:28:53,560 --> 01:28:56,160
Speaker 1: I mean, can you imagine if it was like a

1598
01:28:56,320 --> 01:28:57,679
Speaker 1: bright white sleeve.

1599
01:28:58,120 --> 01:28:59,040
Speaker 2: No, it looked terrible.

1600
01:28:59,240 --> 01:29:01,880
Speaker 1: It would, and it would also be completely wrong for

1601
01:29:01,960 --> 01:29:06,080
Speaker 1: the ethos of the band, as he writes states, Yes,

1602
01:29:06,600 --> 01:29:09,400
Speaker 1: Peter Saville told The Washington Post the group asked for

1603
01:29:09,479 --> 01:29:11,400
Speaker 1: it to be white on the outside, and I just

1604
01:29:11,400 --> 01:29:13,600
Speaker 1: couldn't see it. I was afraid it might look a

1605
01:29:13,640 --> 01:29:16,600
Speaker 1: little cheap. I was convinced that it was just sexier

1606
01:29:16,640 --> 01:29:21,280
Speaker 1: and black. This is a radio energy from space space,

1607
01:29:21,680 --> 01:29:25,080
Speaker 1: he notes, not many people know this is black.

1608
01:29:25,439 --> 01:29:28,040
Speaker 2: I tried not to punch down at people intellectually, but

1609
01:29:28,120 --> 01:29:30,439
Speaker 2: like so many people involved in this story just seem

1610
01:29:30,520 --> 01:29:32,240
Speaker 2: like gentle idiots.

1611
01:29:32,320 --> 01:29:34,920
Speaker 1: Well spinal tap, like, what's blacker than black?

1612
01:29:35,000 --> 01:29:36,479
Speaker 3: Well, yes, no, no, But I mean.

1613
01:29:36,400 --> 01:29:40,720
Speaker 2: Like I like Tony Willson, like, yeah, architect of like

1614
01:29:40,720 --> 01:29:43,799
Speaker 2: a very specific sound in music in the eighties changed

1615
01:29:43,840 --> 01:29:47,960
Speaker 2: the music industry so comically bad with money that it

1616
01:29:48,040 --> 01:29:50,120
Speaker 2: was like a child lived in his head and was

1617
01:29:50,200 --> 01:29:54,840
Speaker 2: doing maths. As they say, you know, love him to death,

1618
01:29:54,920 --> 01:29:57,400
Speaker 2: But like Hookey Barney, all of these guys is just

1619
01:29:57,560 --> 01:29:59,960
Speaker 2: like were you kicked in the head by a horror,

1620
01:30:01,760 --> 01:30:05,759
Speaker 2: like so many of your decisions just and like Peter Saville,

1621
01:30:05,760 --> 01:30:09,080
Speaker 2: he's like, you know, legendary designer quote unquote, but like

1622
01:30:09,120 --> 01:30:10,680
Speaker 2: all of his stuff for they give it his new

1623
01:30:10,760 --> 01:30:14,080
Speaker 2: order covers are just other people's paintings with like a

1624
01:30:14,120 --> 01:30:17,760
Speaker 2: little three color strip, like you know, added to it.

1625
01:30:17,800 --> 01:30:20,360
Speaker 2: And he's like, yes, thank you. The genius of my

1626
01:30:20,520 --> 01:30:25,960
Speaker 2: design was making it black instead of white. Holds out

1627
01:30:25,960 --> 01:30:26,759
Speaker 2: hand for check.

1628
01:30:27,880 --> 01:30:31,880
Speaker 1: But there is a truly hilarious ap pheto out there

1629
01:30:31,920 --> 01:30:35,080
Speaker 1: of Savile holding a parody T shirt that reads what

1630
01:30:35,240 --> 01:30:37,400
Speaker 1: is this? I've seen it on Tumblr.

1631
01:30:37,600 --> 01:30:39,960
Speaker 2: With the waves. Yeah, it's good, so good.

1632
01:30:41,120 --> 01:30:44,120
Speaker 1: Saville explained a little further, and a short documentary produced

1633
01:30:44,160 --> 01:30:48,240
Speaker 1: about the science behind the cover. The diagram himself is

1634
01:30:48,280 --> 01:30:51,360
Speaker 1: a cutting of the continuous readout and then a stacking.

1635
01:30:51,520 --> 01:30:54,880
Speaker 1: He said, So what you're seeing is this comparative chart

1636
01:30:54,920 --> 01:30:57,519
Speaker 1: of the frequency and the accuracy of the signal.

1637
01:30:58,320 --> 01:31:00,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that was really interesting to me about it.

1638
01:31:00,080 --> 01:31:03,360
Speaker 2: I had no idea that because obviously it would be

1639
01:31:03,720 --> 01:31:06,720
Speaker 2: it would be an unbroken linear signal, right, because it's

1640
01:31:07,080 --> 01:31:12,480
Speaker 2: regular pulses being emitted, and so this this genius diagrammer

1641
01:31:12,560 --> 01:31:15,479
Speaker 2: or illustrator or whatever you know, placed a series of

1642
01:31:15,520 --> 01:31:19,639
Speaker 2: them vertically to illustrate their regularity and how they were

1643
01:31:19,640 --> 01:31:22,559
Speaker 2: in relations to each other. And that's what makes it

1644
01:31:22,600 --> 01:31:24,280
Speaker 2: such a cool image to me. That's what gives it

1645
01:31:24,320 --> 01:31:26,559
Speaker 2: the ambiguity and the wave like nature. If you saw

1646
01:31:26,640 --> 01:31:30,360
Speaker 2: if that were merely a single horizontal line, it wouldn't

1647
01:31:30,360 --> 01:31:34,280
Speaker 2: look as cool. So CP nineteen nineteen now referred to

1648
01:31:34,360 --> 01:31:38,840
Speaker 2: as PSRB nineteen nineteen plus twenty one, which rolls off

1649
01:31:38,880 --> 01:31:42,800
Speaker 2: the tongue your had. Others better put that one in.

1650
01:31:44,160 --> 01:31:47,320
Speaker 2: Originally discovered in nineteen sixty seven, it was a radio

1651
01:31:47,360 --> 01:31:53,559
Speaker 2: signal detected using the Interplanetary Scintillation Array band name calling

1652
01:31:53,600 --> 01:31:57,639
Speaker 2: it of the Mollared Radio Astronomy Observatory in Cambridge by

1653
01:31:57,800 --> 01:32:03,040
Speaker 2: Joscelyn Bell Burnell. In a development that will surprise no one,

1654
01:32:03,479 --> 01:32:08,760
Speaker 2: Bell's male thesis advisor was awarded the Nobel Prize for

1655
01:32:08,840 --> 01:32:12,439
Speaker 2: this discovery, although she would eventually win three million dollars

1656
01:32:12,439 --> 01:32:15,680
Speaker 2: as a Physics prize in twenty eighteen, so you know,

1657
01:32:16,000 --> 01:32:19,880
Speaker 2: not that long later. Initially, because of the regularity and

1658
01:32:19,920 --> 01:32:23,080
Speaker 2: strength of the signal, this will interest you the scientist

1659
01:32:23,200 --> 01:32:27,240
Speaker 2: jokingly nicknamed it LGM one. That was its name for

1660
01:32:27,320 --> 01:32:30,519
Speaker 2: Little Green Men, because they said something, this signal, of

1661
01:32:30,520 --> 01:32:34,639
Speaker 2: this strength of regularity, surely must be aliens. Scientific American

1662
01:32:34,680 --> 01:32:36,800
Speaker 2: had a very in depth article about the science of

1663
01:32:36,920 --> 01:32:40,639
Speaker 2: mapping radio signals from pulsars and this illustration, the Joy

1664
01:32:40,680 --> 01:32:45,760
Speaker 2: Division one, was published in nineteen seventy from the Arecibo

1665
01:32:45,960 --> 01:32:49,920
Speaker 2: Radio Observatory. It was part of doctor Harold D. Kraft

1666
01:32:50,000 --> 01:32:53,720
Speaker 2: Junior's PhD thesis titled and wait for it because this

1667
01:32:53,800 --> 01:32:57,200
Speaker 2: title just leaps off the page Radio Observations of the

1668
01:32:57,240 --> 01:33:02,320
Speaker 2: Pulse Profiles and dispersion Measures of twelve pulsear. Who doesn't

1669
01:33:02,320 --> 01:33:03,200
Speaker 2: remember that hit.

1670
01:33:04,760 --> 01:33:08,280
Speaker 1: Pulsar is a cool word, though, it's a really cool word.

1671
01:33:08,600 --> 01:33:10,120
Speaker 2: Have you ever heard of spider pulsars?

1672
01:33:11,320 --> 01:33:13,920
Speaker 1: No? How has it not been a band name for

1673
01:33:14,000 --> 01:33:16,360
Speaker 1: you or a EP or scient title?

1674
01:33:16,520 --> 01:33:18,679
Speaker 2: I don't know. Do you know what spider?

1675
01:33:18,720 --> 01:33:19,160
Speaker 1: Well? No?

1676
01:33:19,200 --> 01:33:21,040
Speaker 2: Why would anyone know what this was? I learned about

1677
01:33:21,040 --> 01:33:24,400
Speaker 2: it from Twitter. A pulsar is the dense core that

1678
01:33:24,600 --> 01:33:27,559
Speaker 2: remains from a collapsed dead star and that's how they turn.

1679
01:33:27,640 --> 01:33:31,799
Speaker 2: They turn into neutron stars right and rotating generates these signals,

1680
01:33:31,840 --> 01:33:36,880
Speaker 2: these pulses and radiation. Spider pulsars are a special class

1681
01:33:36,920 --> 01:33:41,280
Speaker 2: of pulsars because they destroy other stars that orbit them.

1682
01:33:41,600 --> 01:33:46,959
Speaker 2: Because of the strength of their emanations, they systematically destroy

1683
01:33:47,320 --> 01:33:50,720
Speaker 2: anything in a certain distance around them.

1684
01:33:51,160 --> 01:33:52,240
Speaker 3: So let me get this straight.

1685
01:33:52,560 --> 01:33:56,040
Speaker 1: A force from a dead star that has the power

1686
01:33:56,400 --> 01:34:00,920
Speaker 1: to destroy other live things in its area. Yes, that's

1687
01:34:01,080 --> 01:34:05,360
Speaker 1: the most Heigel thing I've ever heard. It is, how

1688
01:34:05,400 --> 01:34:07,599
Speaker 1: has that not been used by you for something?

1689
01:34:08,160 --> 01:34:11,120
Speaker 2: It's very unbrand with me, I will admit, and I'll

1690
01:34:11,160 --> 01:34:14,760
Speaker 2: you know, I'll get on it. I'll get on monetizing

1691
01:34:14,800 --> 01:34:23,200
Speaker 2: that some way. I apologize for the oversight. Alex regrets the.

1692
01:34:21,000 --> 01:34:28,160
Speaker 1: Spider pulse are Wow, that's a really yes, yes anyway,

1693
01:34:28,760 --> 01:34:31,800
Speaker 1: As drummer Stephen Morris recalled, the funniest thing about it

1694
01:34:31,840 --> 01:34:34,160
Speaker 1: was when we first saw the final cover. I said,

1695
01:34:34,520 --> 01:34:36,840
Speaker 1: that'll look really good on a T shirt, to which

1696
01:34:36,880 --> 01:34:39,800
Speaker 1: their manager at the time, Rob Gretton replied, we don't

1697
01:34:39,840 --> 01:34:43,080
Speaker 1: do T shirts. That's adea.

1698
01:34:44,280 --> 01:34:47,480
Speaker 2: Again, dumbasses a lot of them.

1699
01:34:48,400 --> 01:34:51,040
Speaker 1: Consequently, there was around the decade or so for which

1700
01:34:51,080 --> 01:34:54,960
Speaker 1: the only available T shirts of this iconic image were bootlegs.

1701
01:34:55,560 --> 01:34:58,320
Speaker 1: As Bernard Sumner would recall, for many years there was

1702
01:34:58,360 --> 01:35:00,880
Speaker 1: a guy called Scotch Tommy who made his own T

1703
01:35:01,000 --> 01:35:04,839
Speaker 1: shirts and sold them outside our gigs. He made a fortune,

1704
01:35:04,880 --> 01:35:07,479
Speaker 1: I presume, but Rob wouldn't have anything to do with it.

1705
01:35:07,760 --> 01:35:10,559
Speaker 1: He didn't believe in the commerciality. I remember one night

1706
01:35:10,560 --> 01:35:13,479
Speaker 1: after a gig, Scotch Tommy came back and said, I

1707
01:35:13,520 --> 01:35:16,160
Speaker 1: feel really guilty about this. Will you take this check

1708
01:35:16,200 --> 01:35:19,040
Speaker 1: off me? He gave Rob the check and Rob just

1709
01:35:19,120 --> 01:35:22,080
Speaker 1: ripped it up. If he'd given it to me instead,

1710
01:35:22,720 --> 01:35:27,400
Speaker 1: that wouldn't have happened. This probably didn't happen when Savill

1711
01:35:27,479 --> 01:35:31,200
Speaker 1: collaborated in the ots with both designer Raf Simmons and

1712
01:35:31,320 --> 01:35:34,960
Speaker 1: Supreme on capsule collections based around the design.

1713
01:35:36,120 --> 01:35:38,600
Speaker 2: I was tracing some of the pop like references to

1714
01:35:38,640 --> 01:35:40,840
Speaker 2: the Joy Division thing, and it's a long rabbit hole,

1715
01:35:40,840 --> 01:35:42,439
Speaker 2: but two of the most notable ones of the past

1716
01:35:42,520 --> 01:35:44,840
Speaker 2: decade happened within a year of each other and came

1717
01:35:44,880 --> 01:35:48,400
Speaker 2: from hip hop, which is really funny. Vince Staples credited

1718
01:35:48,400 --> 01:35:51,400
Speaker 2: his Mexican neighbors in Long Beach with getting him into

1719
01:35:51,479 --> 01:35:54,479
Speaker 2: Joy Division as a kid, and so he did a

1720
01:35:54,560 --> 01:35:57,639
Speaker 2: version of their He did a version of the Pulsar thing,

1721
01:35:57,720 --> 01:35:59,559
Speaker 2: but with Ocean waves with the cover of his twenty

1722
01:35:59,560 --> 01:36:03,040
Speaker 2: fifteen h Summertime O six and Danny Brown titled his

1723
01:36:03,160 --> 01:36:07,559
Speaker 2: Wildly adventurous twenty sixteen album Atrocity Exhibition after a Joy

1724
01:36:07,600 --> 01:36:11,120
Speaker 2: Division song. So I just think that's neat. I'm forever

1725
01:36:11,240 --> 01:36:14,680
Speaker 2: obligated to mention that Clostermann article where he talks about

1726
01:36:15,360 --> 01:36:19,040
Speaker 2: Morrissey's popularity within the Mexican American community. So I have

1727
01:36:19,120 --> 01:36:22,479
Speaker 2: to assume Vince Staples was getting Joy Division via his

1728
01:36:22,760 --> 01:36:26,759
Speaker 2: long Beach Chicano neighbors via their love of Morrissey.

1729
01:36:27,280 --> 01:36:32,160
Speaker 1: There's a lot of stuff written about Mexican affinity for Morrissey.

1730
01:36:32,200 --> 01:36:33,400
Speaker 1: It's really fascinating to me.

1731
01:36:33,680 --> 01:36:37,360
Speaker 2: And EMO like in the wake of Morrissey, like MCR

1732
01:36:37,439 --> 01:36:40,760
Speaker 2: and like stuff has become a huge subculture.

1733
01:36:40,200 --> 01:36:44,120
Speaker 1: Down there are my Chemical Romance Oh oh oh, sorry,

1734
01:36:44,160 --> 01:36:45,160
Speaker 1: I assumed you were a fan.

1735
01:36:45,479 --> 01:36:47,720
Speaker 2: I assumed you were a kem head. Oh I know,

1736
01:36:47,760 --> 01:36:51,719
Speaker 2: I hate them. Meanwhile, the inner Sleeve of Unknown Pleasures

1737
01:36:51,800 --> 01:36:56,240
Speaker 2: if you even care God was also supplied Too Savile

1738
01:36:56,320 --> 01:36:58,960
Speaker 2: by the band, and it took him several months to

1739
01:36:59,040 --> 01:37:02,080
Speaker 2: source it as a photograph titled hand through the Doorway,

1740
01:37:02,479 --> 01:37:07,120
Speaker 2: which it indeed depicts by American photographer Ralph Gibson, who

1741
01:37:07,200 --> 01:37:10,559
Speaker 2: is still alive at eighty five years young, from his

1742
01:37:10,640 --> 01:37:12,840
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy book The Somnambulist.

1743
01:37:13,400 --> 01:37:17,919
Speaker 1: All of Us contributed to Joy Division's austere, quasi scary image.

1744
01:37:18,080 --> 01:37:23,519
Speaker 1: All up it to semi scary or completely scary. They

1745
01:37:23,560 --> 01:37:25,920
Speaker 1: were told to do as few interviews as possible by

1746
01:37:25,960 --> 01:37:29,160
Speaker 1: their manager because he considered the three non in Curtis

1747
01:37:29,200 --> 01:37:32,679
Speaker 1: members of the band idiots and they're buttoned up quasi

1748
01:37:32,720 --> 01:37:36,280
Speaker 1: military fashion went along with some of the idiotic Nazi

1749
01:37:36,280 --> 01:37:40,040
Speaker 1: imagery they'd adopted early on. In Simon Reynold's book about

1750
01:37:40,080 --> 01:37:42,679
Speaker 1: post punk, Rip It Up and Start Again, he described

1751
01:37:42,760 --> 01:37:45,840
Speaker 1: Joy Division fans as quote intense young men dressed in

1752
01:37:45,880 --> 01:37:46,920
Speaker 1: gray overcoats.

1753
01:37:47,560 --> 01:37:50,719
Speaker 3: That's not ominous, Yeah, I mean.

1754
01:37:53,000 --> 01:37:56,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. They did arguably like set the template for a

1755
01:37:56,680 --> 01:38:00,040
Speaker 2: lot of post punk fashion, which was like weird, distinguishing

1756
01:38:00,080 --> 01:38:03,840
Speaker 2: ourselves from punks by being as like drab and utilitarian

1757
01:38:03,880 --> 01:38:08,320
Speaker 2: as possible because of society, I guess. But you know,

1758
01:38:08,600 --> 01:38:11,160
Speaker 2: Jordan tell us about the troubling history of this era

1759
01:38:11,479 --> 01:38:14,439
Speaker 2: and adopting or toying with Nazi imagery.

1760
01:38:15,080 --> 01:38:19,200
Speaker 1: I thought you'd never ask. This was an unfortunately common

1761
01:38:19,240 --> 01:38:21,920
Speaker 1: instance in punk rock at the time, and even nascent

1762
01:38:22,000 --> 01:38:26,040
Speaker 1: goths and post punks Susie Sue wore a Nazi pin

1763
01:38:26,439 --> 01:38:28,719
Speaker 1: and the sex Pistols were big fans of the imagery

1764
01:38:28,760 --> 01:38:31,799
Speaker 1: as well. Part of it was just the youthful intention

1765
01:38:31,960 --> 01:38:35,120
Speaker 1: to shock. The first wave of British punk musicians were

1766
01:38:35,120 --> 01:38:38,280
Speaker 1: mostly born in the fallout of World War two WW

1767
01:38:38,320 --> 01:38:41,760
Speaker 1: two the big one to TMI listeners, and for them

1768
01:38:41,840 --> 01:38:44,920
Speaker 1: it was sort of like our generation's predisposition to nine

1769
01:38:44,960 --> 01:38:48,120
Speaker 1: to eleven jokes, but as you write, on a much

1770
01:38:48,320 --> 01:38:52,960
Speaker 1: much worse scale. All caps. Bernard Sumner even used the

1771
01:38:53,000 --> 01:38:57,160
Speaker 1: alias Bernard all brecked early on, supposedly after hearing Bertold

1772
01:38:57,240 --> 01:39:00,959
Speaker 1: Breck's name in a documentary, which is either terrible flimsy

1773
01:39:00,960 --> 01:39:02,000
Speaker 1: excuse or.

1774
01:39:02,000 --> 01:39:04,280
Speaker 3: Proof that he is genuinely a dumbass.

1775
01:39:04,760 --> 01:39:05,639
Speaker 1: Your words.

1776
01:39:06,840 --> 01:39:08,840
Speaker 2: I just think it's it all adds up, like it's just,

1777
01:39:09,520 --> 01:39:12,320
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not making fun of dumb people. I'm

1778
01:39:12,320 --> 01:39:16,800
Speaker 2: making fun of them because they have this, you know,

1779
01:39:16,880 --> 01:39:20,680
Speaker 2: horribly austere image. I mean that oral history is really illuminating,

1780
01:39:20,680 --> 01:39:22,960
Speaker 2: because you know, you think of them as glowering men

1781
01:39:23,000 --> 01:39:26,559
Speaker 2: who sit around like reading about Bajaus architecture or something

1782
01:39:26,560 --> 01:39:29,720
Speaker 2: and they were just so into getting drunk and like

1783
01:39:30,040 --> 01:39:33,080
Speaker 2: playing incredibly juvenile pranks on each other. They paid their

1784
01:39:33,080 --> 01:39:36,160
Speaker 2: one roadie to drink a pint glass of piss and

1785
01:39:36,200 --> 01:39:40,679
Speaker 2: then escalated it to a sandwich, a literal sandwich made

1786
01:39:40,720 --> 01:39:45,120
Speaker 2: of like try squaring that with like this record. But

1787
01:39:45,200 --> 01:39:47,280
Speaker 2: that's the wonderful contradiction of them.

1788
01:39:49,800 --> 01:39:53,240
Speaker 3: Art Sunder looks like a Nazi like of all the bands.

1789
01:39:53,240 --> 01:39:57,160
Speaker 2: Well he got the Hitler youth haircut like right, which again,

1790
01:39:57,360 --> 01:39:59,240
Speaker 2: guys read the room.

1791
01:40:00,439 --> 01:40:03,320
Speaker 1: John Savage, who published the aforementioned the Oral History of

1792
01:40:03,320 --> 01:40:06,200
Speaker 1: the band, remembered it was a dangerous one and a

1793
01:40:06,240 --> 01:40:09,040
Speaker 1: stupid one, but in essence it wasn't meant to be

1794
01:40:09,080 --> 01:40:12,000
Speaker 1: taken much more seriously than that, by which he means

1795
01:40:12,040 --> 01:40:17,479
Speaker 1: they're Nazi flirtations in fashion. Supposedly, Joy Division wisened up

1796
01:40:17,520 --> 01:40:24,840
Speaker 1: and played rock against isolationism benefits, and later denounced fashionism.

1797
01:40:23,360 --> 01:40:27,799
Speaker 2: When they were caught and called out. Though undewn Pleasures

1798
01:40:27,880 --> 01:40:31,320
Speaker 2: was a fairly immediate critical hit, it took six months

1799
01:40:31,360 --> 01:40:33,960
Speaker 2: after its release on June fifteenth of nineteen seventy nine

1800
01:40:34,040 --> 01:40:37,799
Speaker 2: to even notch Fifteen thousand copies sold, not great numbers

1801
01:40:37,920 --> 01:40:42,160
Speaker 2: at that time. A godsend in these days. This was

1802
01:40:42,160 --> 01:40:44,679
Speaker 2: bolstered largely by the band's October nineteen seventy nine tour

1803
01:40:44,720 --> 01:40:48,040
Speaker 2: supporting The Buzzcocks, which was so successful to the point

1804
01:40:48,040 --> 01:40:49,920
Speaker 2: where they were finally able to quit their day jobs.

1805
01:40:50,400 --> 01:40:53,400
Speaker 2: Then the non album single Transmission came out, which bolstered

1806
01:40:53,400 --> 01:40:55,439
Speaker 2: sales of the albums when it was released in nineteen

1807
01:40:55,439 --> 01:40:58,400
Speaker 2: seventy nine, but underown Pleasures didn't even chart in the

1808
01:40:58,479 --> 01:41:02,680
Speaker 2: UK until it was res shoot after Curtis's suicide the

1809
01:41:02,800 --> 01:41:08,439
Speaker 2: following May. Unfortunately, the Buzzcocks tour was something of a

1810
01:41:08,520 --> 01:41:11,919
Speaker 2: watershed terrible awful beginning of the end moment for Curtis.

1811
01:41:12,560 --> 01:41:14,880
Speaker 2: He and Deborah had had their only child, Natalie, in

1812
01:41:14,880 --> 01:41:18,759
Speaker 2: April of nineteen seventy nine, and again they were literal children.

1813
01:41:18,960 --> 01:41:22,400
Speaker 2: He was twenty two years old. Though the tour with

1814
01:41:22,520 --> 01:41:25,360
Speaker 2: the Buzzcocks was relatively stable, he only had two seizures

1815
01:41:25,439 --> 01:41:28,559
Speaker 2: during the run, but his fears about his epilepsy were worsening,

1816
01:41:28,840 --> 01:41:31,800
Speaker 2: and to make matters good, to compound matters, he began

1817
01:41:31,840 --> 01:41:39,280
Speaker 2: an affair with a Belgian woman, An all And While

1818
01:41:39,400 --> 01:41:42,559
Speaker 2: Arnauld herself would later claim that her relationship with Curtis

1819
01:41:42,560 --> 01:41:48,400
Speaker 2: was platonic. Curtis's widow, Deborah, denied that. Hilariously and awfully,

1820
01:41:48,960 --> 01:41:52,160
Speaker 2: Ian Curtis supposedly punted the decision whether or not to

1821
01:41:52,240 --> 01:41:56,519
Speaker 2: divorce his wife or stay with her to Bernard Sumner,

1822
01:41:56,800 --> 01:42:00,880
Speaker 2: who wisely demurred. Joy division toward Europe in January of

1823
01:42:00,920 --> 01:42:04,719
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty and began recording their sophomore I'm Closer in March.

1824
01:42:05,360 --> 01:42:08,680
Speaker 2: Debora Curtis wrote in her memoir that Ian was beset

1825
01:42:08,800 --> 01:42:11,400
Speaker 2: by the increasing pressure of the band, along with his

1826
01:42:11,439 --> 01:42:15,719
Speaker 2: affair and his epilepsy and depression. An irregular sleep habit,

1827
01:42:15,760 --> 01:42:18,480
Speaker 2: and his refusal to Kurt Tailor's intake of various substances

1828
01:42:18,560 --> 01:42:22,479
Speaker 2: all contributed to making his seizures more regular. He was

1829
01:42:22,520 --> 01:42:26,559
Speaker 2: experiencing two per week while making Closer. One of his

1830
01:42:26,600 --> 01:42:29,920
Speaker 2: greatest fears was dying in his sleep. From this, he

1831
01:42:30,040 --> 01:42:33,160
Speaker 2: supposedly told Debora that that was what happened to the

1832
01:42:33,200 --> 01:42:37,080
Speaker 2: woman the song she thus control was written about. So

1833
01:42:37,320 --> 01:42:40,880
Speaker 2: they had this god awful ritual where if he didn't

1834
01:42:40,880 --> 01:42:43,679
Speaker 2: have a seizure the night of a gig while playing gig,

1835
01:42:43,840 --> 01:42:46,120
Speaker 2: when he came home, he would just sit in a

1836
01:42:46,200 --> 01:42:49,640
Speaker 2: chair and try and wait out a seizure, or he

1837
01:42:49,640 --> 01:42:51,400
Speaker 2: would lie in bed next to her and she would

1838
01:42:51,439 --> 01:42:55,439
Speaker 2: stay awake waiting to hear his breathing change, which would

1839
01:42:55,479 --> 01:43:00,200
Speaker 2: signal the onset of a seizure. And most horrifically, his

1840
01:43:00,240 --> 01:43:03,639
Speaker 2: condition meant that he couldn't hold his infant daughter very often,

1841
01:43:03,760 --> 01:43:05,920
Speaker 2: or without supervision in the case that he had a

1842
01:43:06,000 --> 01:43:07,160
Speaker 2: seizure while holding her.

1843
01:43:08,560 --> 01:43:09,040
Speaker 1: That is.

1844
01:43:10,479 --> 01:43:14,040
Speaker 2: Heartbreaking, and Curtis knew it. He wrote in a March

1845
01:43:14,120 --> 01:43:16,920
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty letter, the attacks of epilepsy are beginning to

1846
01:43:16,920 --> 01:43:19,880
Speaker 2: frighten me. Sometimes I'm afraid to go out somewhere at

1847
01:43:19,920 --> 01:43:21,679
Speaker 2: night for fear of having a fit in a club

1848
01:43:21,800 --> 01:43:24,720
Speaker 2: or cinema. I get more nervous when we play now

1849
01:43:24,760 --> 01:43:27,840
Speaker 2: for fear of it happening. It seems more frequent. I

1850
01:43:27,880 --> 01:43:29,880
Speaker 2: don't think I could ever set foot on stage again

1851
01:43:29,960 --> 01:43:32,640
Speaker 2: if I had a full stage attack while playing. It

1852
01:43:32,680 --> 01:43:35,080
Speaker 2: gets more worrying. With the American tour and lots of

1853
01:43:35,120 --> 01:43:37,840
Speaker 2: other dates coming up, I keep thinking that someday things

1854
01:43:37,880 --> 01:43:40,040
Speaker 2: will be so intense that I'll no longer be able

1855
01:43:40,040 --> 01:43:40,559
Speaker 2: to carry on.

1856
01:43:40,920 --> 01:43:44,160
Speaker 1: During the recording for Closer, the band noticed that Curtis

1857
01:43:44,200 --> 01:43:47,479
Speaker 1: had been absent for around two hours and hook found

1858
01:43:47,479 --> 01:43:50,080
Speaker 1: them unconscious in the bathroom, having hit his head on

1859
01:43:50,080 --> 01:43:54,839
Speaker 1: the sink during a seizure. During an April nineteen eighty concert,

1860
01:43:55,040 --> 01:43:58,559
Speaker 1: lighting techts at a venue expressly ignored the band's mandate

1861
01:43:58,600 --> 01:44:02,200
Speaker 1: against strobe lighting, and Curtis collapsed against the drum kit

1862
01:44:02,240 --> 01:44:06,200
Speaker 1: and was carried off stage. Two days later, he attempted

1863
01:44:06,200 --> 01:44:11,080
Speaker 1: suicide by overdosing on a seizure medication incidentally. In Grant

1864
01:44:11,160 --> 01:44:14,320
Speaker 1: Lee and Tom Tencio's two thousand and seven documentary about

1865
01:44:14,320 --> 01:44:18,400
Speaker 1: the band, an epilepsy specialist analyzed Curtis's perception from the

1866
01:44:18,439 --> 01:44:22,160
Speaker 1: time and concluded that it was guaranteed to kill him.

1867
01:44:22,400 --> 01:44:25,360
Speaker 2: How so, I have to say in either quantity or

1868
01:44:25,560 --> 01:44:29,360
Speaker 2: the scattershot nature of them, just like I know, I

1869
01:44:29,360 --> 01:44:32,400
Speaker 2: would probably quantity in combination, you know, because you remember

1870
01:44:32,479 --> 01:44:36,400
Speaker 2: he was on at least three different ones at various points,

1871
01:44:36,400 --> 01:44:38,800
Speaker 2: and you know by this time he probably either on

1872
01:44:38,840 --> 01:44:40,800
Speaker 2: a combination of them or just one that was so

1873
01:44:40,920 --> 01:44:43,120
Speaker 2: heavy that it would have damaged you. I mean, they

1874
01:44:43,120 --> 01:44:46,840
Speaker 2: were barbituates. It was like quailud. So they were in

1875
01:44:46,920 --> 01:44:48,720
Speaker 2: it the downer class, you know.

1876
01:44:49,320 --> 01:44:52,400
Speaker 1: The next month, in May nineteen eighty, Curtis visited Deborah,

1877
01:44:52,400 --> 01:44:54,519
Speaker 1: his wife, the day before the band was scheduled to

1878
01:44:54,560 --> 01:44:58,120
Speaker 1: depart for their first North American tour. He wanted to

1879
01:44:58,160 --> 01:45:01,000
Speaker 1: ask her to drop the divorce suit she after he

1880
01:45:01,080 --> 01:45:04,000
Speaker 1: refused to cut off contact with his girlfriend, Anique on

1881
01:45:04,240 --> 01:45:06,599
Speaker 1: a I think saw you say her name. He wrote

1882
01:45:06,600 --> 01:45:09,599
Speaker 1: several letters to Anique while recuperating from his first suicide,

1883
01:45:09,600 --> 01:45:12,759
Speaker 1: attempt Shafford to spend the night with him, his wife

1884
01:45:12,880 --> 01:45:14,240
Speaker 1: or Anique.

1885
01:45:14,640 --> 01:45:17,439
Speaker 2: Deborah I didn't write this in but she had moved

1886
01:45:17,439 --> 01:45:20,280
Speaker 2: out and she and their daughter were living with her parents.

1887
01:45:20,439 --> 01:45:24,040
Speaker 1: Okay. Shafford to spend the night with Ian worried about

1888
01:45:24,040 --> 01:45:26,839
Speaker 1: his state of mind triggering a seizure, but after returning

1889
01:45:26,840 --> 01:45:29,400
Speaker 1: from her parents' house, he told her that he wanted

1890
01:45:29,439 --> 01:45:31,360
Speaker 1: to spend the night alone and told her not to

1891
01:45:31,400 --> 01:45:33,519
Speaker 1: come to the house until after he'd caught a train

1892
01:45:33,640 --> 01:45:37,360
Speaker 1: to Manchester at ten am the next morning. In the

1893
01:45:37,400 --> 01:45:42,000
Speaker 1: intervening hours, Curtis watched Werner Herzog's nineteen seventy seven film Strozik,

1894
01:45:42,439 --> 01:45:45,559
Speaker 1: which ends with the protagonist suicide, and listened to Iggy

1895
01:45:45,600 --> 01:45:49,120
Speaker 1: Pop's The Idiot, titled at Fidolphstoyevsky's novel of the same

1896
01:45:49,240 --> 01:45:54,240
Speaker 1: name starring an epileptic prince driven mad by society. He

1897
01:45:54,280 --> 01:45:56,559
Speaker 1: took photos of his wedding day and daughter off the

1898
01:45:56,640 --> 01:45:59,800
Speaker 1: walls and wrote an ambiguous note to Deborah asking her

1899
01:45:59,880 --> 01:46:03,120
Speaker 1: not to contact him for a while, before hanging himself

1900
01:46:03,120 --> 01:46:05,759
Speaker 1: with the washing line in the homes kitchen.

1901
01:46:06,120 --> 01:46:09,919
Speaker 2: The band were shocked by Curtis's suicide, although Tony Wilson

1902
01:46:10,200 --> 01:46:13,720
Speaker 2: would later recall that Andike told him she'd been terrified

1903
01:46:13,760 --> 01:46:19,320
Speaker 2: after listening to Closer telling him Ian means it. Wilson,

1904
01:46:19,439 --> 01:46:24,840
Speaker 2: with characteristic irreverence, said an interview later that after Curis's suicide,

1905
01:46:24,880 --> 01:46:29,000
Speaker 2: his reaction was he had meant it, adding I think

1906
01:46:29,040 --> 01:46:30,840
Speaker 2: we were a bunch of silly cops not to see

1907
01:46:30,840 --> 01:46:35,880
Speaker 2: it coming. We never listened to his lyrics, Bernard Sumner

1908
01:46:35,920 --> 01:46:39,120
Speaker 2: told Uncut magazine in twenty eighteen. No one sat down

1909
01:46:39,160 --> 01:46:41,680
Speaker 2: and said, have you read Ian's lyrics? They're a bit

1910
01:46:42,760 --> 01:46:45,240
Speaker 2: Because he was a normal, happy guy. It was very

1911
01:46:45,280 --> 01:46:47,839
Speaker 2: difficult to tell with Ian what he could and couldn't handle.

1912
01:46:48,320 --> 01:46:50,719
Speaker 2: We had no idea. We hadn't known him that long.

1913
01:46:51,040 --> 01:46:53,920
Speaker 2: We didn't know he was approaching his breaking point. One

1914
01:46:53,960 --> 01:46:56,639
Speaker 2: of the more eerie aspects to this is that Closer

1915
01:46:56,800 --> 01:47:00,439
Speaker 2: having been completed before Ian's death, had this the art

1916
01:47:01,360 --> 01:47:05,240
Speaker 2: of a family tomb in an Italian cemetery. He was

1917
01:47:05,280 --> 01:47:08,640
Speaker 2: already in place and through the production facility when he

1918
01:47:08,760 --> 01:47:13,040
Speaker 2: killed himself. Some people have posited after the fact that

1919
01:47:13,120 --> 01:47:15,960
Speaker 2: Curtis knew he wasn't up to the continuing stressors of

1920
01:47:16,000 --> 01:47:18,519
Speaker 2: being enjoy division and was already making peace with the

1921
01:47:18,520 --> 01:47:21,479
Speaker 2: idea of the band continuing without him. He saw it

1922
01:47:21,520 --> 01:47:24,960
Speaker 2: going on without him. Lindsay Reid, whose cottage Curtis stayed

1923
01:47:24,960 --> 01:47:28,120
Speaker 2: in while recuperating from his first suicide attempt, said he

1924
01:47:28,160 --> 01:47:31,160
Speaker 2: felt very removed from it. With the epilepsy. He just

1925
01:47:31,240 --> 01:47:33,760
Speaker 2: knew he couldn't carry on with the performances. He'd sort

1926
01:47:33,760 --> 01:47:35,800
Speaker 2: of hit a pinnacle with Closer, and he knew he

1927
01:47:35,800 --> 01:47:39,840
Speaker 2: couldn't go on. In her nineteen ninety five book Touching

1928
01:47:39,840 --> 01:47:43,320
Speaker 2: from a Distance, his widow Deborah wrote, I believe Ian

1929
01:47:43,400 --> 01:47:46,400
Speaker 2: chose his deadline. It was important for him to keep

1930
01:47:46,439 --> 01:47:48,240
Speaker 2: the charade up in front of the band in case

1931
01:47:48,280 --> 01:47:50,760
Speaker 2: they tried to dissuade him. The only reason he was

1932
01:47:50,800 --> 01:47:53,000
Speaker 2: no longer worried about the American trip was because he

1933
01:47:53,080 --> 01:47:56,280
Speaker 2: knew he wasn't going. Stephen Morris said at one point

1934
01:47:56,360 --> 01:47:58,519
Speaker 2: that the band had made a unanimous decision to rename

1935
01:47:58,600 --> 01:48:02,040
Speaker 2: themselves if any member had left, which he Hook and

1936
01:48:02,080 --> 01:48:06,479
Speaker 2: Sumner obviously did, christening themselves New Order and further melding

1937
01:48:06,520 --> 01:48:11,439
Speaker 2: their unique instrumental sound with electronic elements. Obviously, there are

1938
01:48:11,479 --> 01:48:14,120
Speaker 2: an episode of their own, but the long and short

1939
01:48:14,120 --> 01:48:15,600
Speaker 2: of it is that New Order became one of the

1940
01:48:15,640 --> 01:48:18,719
Speaker 2: defining bands of the nineteen eighties with hits like Blue Monday,

1941
01:48:19,200 --> 01:48:22,360
Speaker 2: but their relationship with Factory Records, the club it created,

1942
01:48:22,439 --> 01:48:26,120
Speaker 2: the Hacienda, and themselves eventually soured.

1943
01:48:26,200 --> 01:48:29,599
Speaker 1: And so did the relationship between Peter Hook and Bernard Sumner.

1944
01:48:30,360 --> 01:48:32,920
Speaker 1: Tensions between the two had begun to increase during the

1945
01:48:32,960 --> 01:48:35,800
Speaker 1: Closer sessions, with Hook clinging onto their roots as punk

1946
01:48:35,880 --> 01:48:40,040
Speaker 1: rockers and Sumner's growing interest in electronic and programmed music.

1947
01:48:40,520 --> 01:48:43,280
Speaker 1: New Order's first single was Ceremony, one of the last

1948
01:48:43,360 --> 01:48:46,599
Speaker 1: Joy Division songs, composed by Ian Curtis, who had written

1949
01:48:46,600 --> 01:48:47,120
Speaker 1: the lyrics.

1950
01:48:47,439 --> 01:48:49,839
Speaker 2: There was such a funny part in Control the Korbian

1951
01:48:49,880 --> 01:48:52,280
Speaker 2: movie where he like, they're obviously trying to paint him

1952
01:48:52,280 --> 01:48:56,280
Speaker 2: as like a lad and he comes out of like

1953
01:48:56,280 --> 01:48:59,040
Speaker 2: like the backstage of some shoot, like Dingy show, and

1954
01:48:59,080 --> 01:49:02,360
Speaker 2: like Ian it is just like staring soulfully off into distance,

1955
01:49:02,400 --> 01:49:04,600
Speaker 2: and the hook it just staggers out with like I

1956
01:49:04,640 --> 01:49:06,720
Speaker 2: think pints in like both of his hands and he's like,

1957
01:49:06,960 --> 01:49:08,479
Speaker 2: all right, girls, come to HOOKI.

1958
01:49:13,160 --> 01:49:16,599
Speaker 1: In Hook's book, he talks about how initially ceremony at

1959
01:49:16,600 --> 01:49:20,360
Speaker 1: his Sumner and Curtis's voice is all overlaid, but Sumner

1960
01:49:20,439 --> 01:49:24,160
Speaker 1: wanted another take and inadvertently or intentionally you pause, it

1961
01:49:24,640 --> 01:49:27,919
Speaker 1: wiped the other two in the process. Can you imagine

1962
01:49:27,960 --> 01:49:32,639
Speaker 1: wiping your late bandmate's last vocal performance. There's no way

1963
01:49:32,640 --> 01:49:35,280
Speaker 1: that could have been intentional. There's no way that was

1964
01:49:35,280 --> 01:49:38,160
Speaker 1: an accidentally on purpose thing. I refuse to believe it.

1965
01:49:38,640 --> 01:49:40,960
Speaker 2: You're more charitable towards Barney than Hooky is.

1966
01:49:41,520 --> 01:49:45,360
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, hook was by his own emission, I wanna

1967
01:49:45,400 --> 01:49:48,720
Speaker 1: be rock star see the whole base hanging down by

1968
01:49:48,760 --> 01:49:52,679
Speaker 1: his knees thing, And that contrasted with Bernie Sumner's more bookish,

1969
01:49:52,720 --> 01:49:56,280
Speaker 1: introspective personality. See this is why I kind of, you know,

1970
01:49:56,439 --> 01:49:59,720
Speaker 1: I feel a little more you like Barnie. I mean

1971
01:50:00,160 --> 01:50:03,960
Speaker 1: I don't I like Peter hook better, but I personality

1972
01:50:04,000 --> 01:50:05,320
Speaker 1: wise I get it.

1973
01:50:05,600 --> 01:50:09,439
Speaker 2: Well. Yeah, yeah, because I'm Hook and you're.

1974
01:50:12,600 --> 01:50:14,280
Speaker 3: I would never wipe no.

1975
01:50:14,080 --> 01:50:16,479
Speaker 2: No, but I mean those are very obviously the same

1976
01:50:16,600 --> 01:50:20,160
Speaker 2: archetypes like the Lennon McCartney one that you and I occupy.

1977
01:50:22,720 --> 01:50:25,040
Speaker 1: Some who decided to stop touring during the height of

1978
01:50:25,080 --> 01:50:28,000
Speaker 1: New Order's success, which pissed Hook off to no end.

1979
01:50:28,320 --> 01:50:30,720
Speaker 1: When they did play live, Hook painted Sumner as a

1980
01:50:30,760 --> 01:50:34,840
Speaker 1: consummate diva, always late and whining behavior bolstered when a

1981
01:50:34,920 --> 01:50:38,439
Speaker 1: stomach ulcer for Sumner out of commission and led to

1982
01:50:38,479 --> 01:50:41,920
Speaker 1: a canceled date, which Hook says convinced Sumner quote, they

1983
01:50:41,960 --> 01:50:45,880
Speaker 1: need me, they can't do it without me. The personal

1984
01:50:45,960 --> 01:50:49,519
Speaker 1: stuff was compounded by the idiotic finances behind factory records.

1985
01:50:49,520 --> 01:50:52,599
Speaker 1: In the band Blue Monday became the best selling twelve

1986
01:50:52,640 --> 01:50:56,040
Speaker 1: inch single of all time, but the elaborate sleeve designed

1987
01:50:56,080 --> 01:50:59,559
Speaker 1: by Peter Salvill meant that it lost five pence for

1988
01:50:59,640 --> 01:51:03,639
Speaker 1: every copy. Soul Hilarious and the Haciend the club which

1989
01:51:03,840 --> 01:51:06,639
Speaker 1: Peter Hook in New Order co owned, I believe because

1990
01:51:06,640 --> 01:51:07,680
Speaker 1: they wrote the book about it.

1991
01:51:07,760 --> 01:51:09,599
Speaker 3: I think it's called How Not to Manage a Club?

1992
01:51:09,640 --> 01:51:14,040
Speaker 1: If I Recall was losing something like ten pounds a week,

1993
01:51:14,320 --> 01:51:17,160
Speaker 1: which meant tour revenue was constantly going to pay for

1994
01:51:17,200 --> 01:51:20,160
Speaker 1: their debts. It all just kept getting worse and worse.

1995
01:51:20,720 --> 01:51:22,600
Speaker 1: For Peter Hook, the beginning of the end came and

1996
01:51:22,680 --> 01:51:26,120
Speaker 1: Bernard's Suddener teamed up with Smith's guitarist Johnny Marr for

1997
01:51:26,160 --> 01:51:27,600
Speaker 1: a side project.

1998
01:51:27,240 --> 01:51:33,120
Speaker 2: And hilariously claims that Mar approached him first with the

1999
01:51:33,160 --> 01:51:36,880
Speaker 2: line which I cannot actually imagine, Johnny Marr saying, the

2000
01:51:36,920 --> 01:51:39,920
Speaker 2: best guitarist in Manchester should make an album with the

2001
01:51:39,960 --> 01:51:41,600
Speaker 2: best bassist in Manchester.

2002
01:51:42,840 --> 01:51:44,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, Johnny Mar's too sweet for that.

2003
01:51:44,600 --> 01:51:46,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just oh. And then Peter Hook said he

2004
01:51:46,720 --> 01:51:51,200
Speaker 2: declined because he was too dedicated to New Order. It's

2005
01:51:51,320 --> 01:51:53,040
Speaker 2: just like, yeah, I mean, I love the guy, but

2006
01:51:53,120 --> 01:51:56,400
Speaker 2: he definitely rewrites things in his own favor.

2007
01:51:56,600 --> 01:51:59,320
Speaker 1: Hook got sober, and Sumner said that actually made him

2008
01:51:59,320 --> 01:52:02,880
Speaker 1: a worse per which is an amazing thing to say

2009
01:52:02,920 --> 01:52:06,440
Speaker 1: about anyone, especially a bandmate that you've known for decades.

2010
01:52:07,280 --> 01:52:10,040
Speaker 1: Hook also purchased the rights to the Hacienda club name

2011
01:52:10,120 --> 01:52:12,479
Speaker 1: out from under the rest of the band and began

2012
01:52:12,640 --> 01:52:16,519
Speaker 1: licensing quite liberally, which annoyed the others, no doubt, who

2013
01:52:16,560 --> 01:52:20,040
Speaker 1: thought it was a group venture. Eventually, the band split

2014
01:52:20,520 --> 01:52:24,040
Speaker 1: very publicly and in dueling memoirs by Minard Sumner and

2015
01:52:24,080 --> 01:52:26,559
Speaker 1: Peter Hook, they dragged each other through the mud. And

2016
01:52:26,600 --> 01:52:29,200
Speaker 1: there was also a royalties based lawsuit by Peter Hook.

2017
01:52:29,280 --> 01:52:30,120
Speaker 2: Do you know about that one?

2018
01:52:30,200 --> 01:52:32,240
Speaker 1: I must have written about it for the Rivals episode,

2019
01:52:32,240 --> 01:52:33,439
Speaker 1: but I don't remember it now.

2020
01:52:33,680 --> 01:52:37,640
Speaker 2: He essentially sumed them, claiming that they formed a like

2021
01:52:37,720 --> 01:52:41,360
Speaker 2: a separate llc or like a separate corporation and dealt

2022
01:52:41,400 --> 01:52:46,200
Speaker 2: themselves a royalty rate higher than his without his knowledge.

2023
01:52:46,720 --> 01:52:49,680
Speaker 2: And it basically got settled. Like the judge looked at

2024
01:52:49,680 --> 01:52:52,200
Speaker 2: this and was like, I think this case has merit,

2025
01:52:52,520 --> 01:52:54,679
Speaker 2: but I would I would urge you all to settle

2026
01:52:54,720 --> 01:52:57,360
Speaker 2: it rather than go through court costs. That's what they did.

2027
01:52:57,640 --> 01:52:59,960
Speaker 2: It's just so, I mean, we know that she happens too.

2028
01:53:00,040 --> 01:53:02,719
Speaker 2: Are we talking about that four guys negotiated a higher

2029
01:53:02,800 --> 01:53:05,160
Speaker 2: royalty rate than the other guy when they re signed?

2030
01:53:05,439 --> 01:53:08,080
Speaker 3: Well, van Halen seems like a van Halen, Yeah.

2031
01:53:07,800 --> 01:53:10,920
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, you know if you remember that is one

2032
01:53:10,960 --> 01:53:13,879
Speaker 2: of the conflicts in van Halen. You know the brothers

2033
01:53:13,920 --> 01:53:18,080
Speaker 2: and I think it was the brothers and Michael the Bassis.

2034
01:53:18,120 --> 01:53:20,240
Speaker 2: Around their time, the Greatest Hits collection came out like

2035
01:53:20,360 --> 01:53:23,519
Speaker 2: quietly signed a new contract that cut David Lee roth

2036
01:53:23,600 --> 01:53:26,720
Speaker 2: in for much less ough.

2037
01:53:27,040 --> 01:53:29,479
Speaker 1: And now Peter Hook tour says Peter Hook and the

2038
01:53:29,600 --> 01:53:33,160
Speaker 1: Light playing Joy Division and New Order songs all Bernard's

2039
01:53:33,160 --> 01:53:35,519
Speaker 1: Sumner continues to tour as New Order.

2040
01:53:35,720 --> 01:53:37,720
Speaker 2: That was supposedly another point of contention with them that

2041
01:53:37,720 --> 01:53:39,840
Speaker 2: Peter Hook wanted to keep playing Joy Division songs and

2042
01:53:39,880 --> 01:53:42,160
Speaker 2: some just said no, huh, do you have anything else

2043
01:53:42,160 --> 01:53:44,320
Speaker 2: to add before I get all bummer and serious again.

2044
01:53:45,800 --> 01:53:47,719
Speaker 1: I mean, that's interesting if he really did the Racie

2045
01:53:47,760 --> 01:53:50,360
Speaker 1: and Curtis's voice on ceremony, because maybe he really does

2046
01:53:50,439 --> 01:53:52,280
Speaker 1: just want to like start fresh.

2047
01:53:52,560 --> 01:53:54,639
Speaker 2: Yeah. Have you read Bernard's book?

2048
01:53:55,800 --> 01:53:59,240
Speaker 1: I did years ago. It was a lot less mean

2049
01:53:59,400 --> 01:54:01,200
Speaker 1: than Peter hook books, but a lot less fun.

2050
01:54:01,920 --> 01:54:04,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think Hook's whole thing with it was like

2051
01:54:04,160 --> 01:54:08,240
Speaker 2: reading that book, you'd think Bernard Sumner never quarreled with

2052
01:54:08,280 --> 01:54:12,240
Speaker 2: anyone who wasn't Peter Hook, which is a great a

2053
01:54:12,280 --> 01:54:15,479
Speaker 2: great quote easy. I'm telling you, man, he's got the

2054
01:54:15,520 --> 01:54:22,880
Speaker 2: better quotes. He looks cooler. Now for final thoughts, I

2055
01:54:23,000 --> 01:54:24,920
Speaker 2: truly don't know how we're going to transition into this,

2056
01:54:26,160 --> 01:54:30,760
Speaker 2: so we won't. You know, writing this, I got a

2057
01:54:30,760 --> 01:54:34,960
Speaker 2: little bit sidetracked with the New Order stuff, and it

2058
01:54:35,040 --> 01:54:37,640
Speaker 2: is fascinating obviously, but if I can do my my

2059
01:54:37,760 --> 01:54:40,960
Speaker 2: Jerry Springer final thought moment, I think that the entire

2060
01:54:41,000 --> 01:54:46,080
Speaker 2: saga of Ian Curtis enjoy Division is communication is really important,

2061
01:54:47,240 --> 01:54:50,320
Speaker 2: not just in the New Order situation where they just

2062
01:54:50,360 --> 01:54:54,440
Speaker 2: were refusing to talk or negotiating this stuff, but especially

2063
01:54:54,440 --> 01:54:57,160
Speaker 2: with Ian, where it's like, reach out to someone, if

2064
01:54:57,160 --> 01:54:59,880
Speaker 2: you're in pain, for the love of God, just do it.

2065
01:55:00,640 --> 01:55:03,960
Speaker 2: Don't be afraid of being a burden. I hope that

2066
01:55:04,080 --> 01:55:06,880
Speaker 2: attitude is not as prevalent in twenty twenty four as

2067
01:55:06,880 --> 01:55:10,640
Speaker 2: it was in nineteen eighty. But you know, when you

2068
01:55:10,720 --> 01:55:14,640
Speaker 2: hear this constant theme of all the people ostensibly closest

2069
01:55:14,680 --> 01:55:18,400
Speaker 2: to him, who said, we had no idea, I'm contributing to,

2070
01:55:18,480 --> 01:55:23,200
Speaker 2: We're contributing to an irresponsible lionization of Curtis's suicide is

2071
01:55:23,240 --> 01:55:28,480
Speaker 2: some kind of foregone poet's gesture when it really should

2072
01:55:28,560 --> 01:55:31,120
Speaker 2: be looked at as a warning not to isolate yourself

2073
01:55:31,160 --> 01:55:34,320
Speaker 2: because of your own pain. You know, there's a repeated

2074
01:55:34,360 --> 01:55:38,800
Speaker 2: line in joy Division's atmosphere, don't walk away in silence,

2075
01:55:39,680 --> 01:55:43,120
Speaker 2: and it's a sentiment that ian after writing it ultimately ignored.

2076
01:55:44,400 --> 01:55:47,200
Speaker 2: As good as the music on Unknown Pleasures is to

2077
01:55:47,280 --> 01:55:50,120
Speaker 2: listen to if you find yourself in a bad place,

2078
01:55:50,720 --> 01:55:57,000
Speaker 2: learn from it. Stay here and talk. I'm Alex Haigel.

2079
01:55:57,880 --> 01:55:59,080
Speaker 2: This has been too much information.

2080
01:56:00,080 --> 01:56:08,520
Speaker 1: I'm Jordan Runtalg. We'll catch you all next time. Too

2081
01:56:08,560 --> 01:56:10,840
Speaker 1: Much Information was a production of iHeartRadio.

2082
01:56:11,120 --> 01:56:14,360
Speaker 2: The show's executive producers are Noel Brown and Jordan Runtalg.

2083
01:56:14,520 --> 01:56:17,400
Speaker 1: The show's supervising producer is Michael Alder June.

2084
01:56:17,640 --> 01:56:20,480
Speaker 2: The show was researched, written and hosted by Jordan run

2085
01:56:20,560 --> 01:56:21,400
Speaker 2: Talk and Alex.

2086
01:56:21,240 --> 01:56:24,160
Speaker 1: Heigel, with original music by Seth Applebaum and the Ghost

2087
01:56:24,240 --> 01:56:27,040
Speaker 1: Funk Orchestra. If you like what you heard, please subscribe

2088
01:56:27,080 --> 01:56:29,920
Speaker 1: and leave us a review. For more podcasts on iHeartRadio,

2089
01:56:30,040 --> 01:56:33,440
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

2090
01:56:33,480 --> 01:56:34,400
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.