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Speaker 1: Previously on Wilian House.

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Speaker 2: Last month there was a big raid. We don't know

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Speaker 2: the details, but we know that there was just military

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Speaker 2: border patrol, d e A, our local sheriffs, Imperial County sheriffs,

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Speaker 2: just not knowing, you know, what really is happening, and

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Speaker 2: just everything that's on the news.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people don't feel safe.

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Speaker 3: You think, I believe it's going to get worse. Why

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Speaker 3: because of the race. She doesn't feel like it's going

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Speaker 3: to get better and what's going to happen.

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Speaker 4: You know, because of these races, people don't want to

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Speaker 4: go to work and you know, for the needs.

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Speaker 5: Welcome to Weedian House. I'm your host, Theo Henderson. This

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Speaker 5: week we're going to tackle the thorny subject of language,

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Speaker 5: messaging and mental health. But first Unhoused News. The sheep

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Speaker 5: will spend its entire life fearing the wolf, only to

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Speaker 5: be eaten by the shepherd. On Tuesday, September two, twenty

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Speaker 5: twenty five, Mayor Banks hosted and inside Safe Meat and Greek.

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Speaker 5: On the face of it, the shepherd is devouring or

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Speaker 5: soft pedaling erasure under the guise of helping the young

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Speaker 5: house and at the same time preventing other unhoused people

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Speaker 5: to occupy evicted neighborhood spaces. Willful ignorance, allied with power,

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Speaker 5: is the most ferocious enemy justice has. In order to

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Speaker 5: sell insights, starving messaging is key, presenting houselessness as a

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Speaker 5: personal failing or tragedy, then offering empty solutions under the

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Speaker 5: guise of helping Allaye Nimbi's guilt and disdain of the

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Speaker 5: young house. They convinced themselves that they are offering humane

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Speaker 5: assistance while the police lurk nearby for safety. Safety is

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Speaker 5: the operative word California Governor Newsom used in order to

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Speaker 5: beat Donald Trump to the punch.

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Speaker 6: Governor Newsom mission executive order just this morning for the

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Speaker 6: removal of homeless encampments across the state.

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Speaker 5: He recently took it a step further in August twenty

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Speaker 5: twenty five to accelerate the removal of encampments and to

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Speaker 5: connect the young housed with services and shelter. Newsom also

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Speaker 5: threatened local governments that he will withhold state money if

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Speaker 5: they don't produce results in addressing houselessness.

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Speaker 1: There's no more excuses.

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Speaker 5: You got the money, you've got the flexibility, you've got

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Speaker 5: the green light, you.

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Speaker 1: Got the support from the state and the public is

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Speaker 1: demanding of you.

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Speaker 5: Recently, President Trump issued an executive order pertaining to the

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Speaker 5: un House.

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Speaker 7: The President now wants it easier for communities to remove

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Speaker 7: homeless people from the streets and relocate them to a

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Speaker 7: shelter or treatment center. This EO stresses that states and

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Speaker 7: cities need to adopt policies for dismantling homeless encampments just

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Speaker 7: like the ones you see right here, saying they pose

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Speaker 7: a threat to life, health, and community safety.

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Speaker 5: In the executive order, President Trump writes that the overwhelming

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Speaker 5: majority of houseless individuals are addicted to drugs, have a

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Speaker 5: mental condition.

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Speaker 1: Or both.

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Speaker 6: It calls for changes in order to make it easier

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Speaker 6: for states and cities to move people living on the

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Speaker 6: street into treatment for mental illness or addiction, and in

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Speaker 6: some cases, forcing people into treatment without their consent.

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Speaker 5: There's another putative measure that Trump calls substance usage Programs

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Speaker 5: that offer harm reduction, such as needle exchange or a

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Speaker 5: housing first model, will not be funded.

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Speaker 6: It also calls on the President's cabinet members to fast

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Speaker 6: track federal funding to states and cities that crack down

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Speaker 6: on illegal drug use and homeless encampments.

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Speaker 5: Pay attention to the words that our leaders are using,

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Speaker 5: restore public order, humane treatment, Inside.

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Speaker 1: Safe, the sheep will.

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Speaker 5: Spend its entire life fearing the wolf, only to be

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Speaker 5: eaten by the shepherd. The shepherd is the leaders in

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Speaker 5: our government, and vulnerable people are the meal. The last

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Speaker 5: connecting link I want to introduce you to happened at

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Speaker 5: the end of August twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: In the dead of night.

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Speaker 5: The Trump administration awakened undocumented orphans, put them on a

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Speaker 5: plane to send them to Guatemala, with no one on

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Speaker 5: the other end to receive them, under the guise of

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Speaker 5: keeping America safe, under the guise of restoring public order,

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Speaker 5: under the guise of only targeting criminals in the dead

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Speaker 5: of night. It took awakening a judge at two of

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Speaker 5: the morning to stop this shepherd from devouring boshep. And

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Speaker 5: that's on House News. When we come back, we have

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Speaker 5: the founder of the Institute for the Development of Human Arts,

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Speaker 5: Jesse Roth. Welcome back to Whitian House. On THEO Henderson

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Speaker 5: Jesse Ross joined us this week discussing a variety of

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Speaker 5: topics and the connecting issues our society is facing. Without

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Speaker 5: further Ado here's our interview with Jesse Good afternoon. This

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Speaker 5: is Theo Henderson from Whedian House. I have a special

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Speaker 5: guest here. I have been on a series of different

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Speaker 5: conversations and episodes leading up to President Trump's Executive Order,

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Speaker 5: Gavin Newsom's executive Order, and the recent Supreme Court ruling

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Speaker 5: against the end House with the Grant's Pass ruling, and

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Speaker 5: for those that need a quick refresher, I'm going to

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Speaker 5: go through them very quickly. It starts off withare the

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Speaker 5: Supreme Court ruling the Grant's past ruling it would overturn

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Speaker 5: the Circuit Court's Knife appeal ruling of cruel and unusual punishment.

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Speaker 5: And why this is important to say and make this

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Speaker 5: distinction is because now cities are free from lawsuit and

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Speaker 5: being held liable of how they treat the un housed communities. Therefore,

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Speaker 5: they don't have to offer services, they don't have to

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Speaker 5: offer shelter. They can see an unhoused person and they

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Speaker 5: can criminalize and put them in jail or find them

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Speaker 5: remove them from where they are residing. So that was

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Speaker 5: pivotal because in the lawsuits that followed with the Ninth

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Speaker 5: Circuit Court, it made it slowed down these kind of

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Speaker 5: enforcement efforts, and all across the country in the past year,

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Speaker 5: you've seen cities adopting draconian measures against the un House

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Speaker 5: to remove them from places it sweeps been going on

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Speaker 5: forty one to eighteen, has been in full effect in

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Speaker 5: our Los Angeles as well as the executive order Gavin

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Speaker 5: Newsom stated against Dunhouse people, he created a fund that

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Speaker 5: called the Encampment a resource fund that will get funds

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Speaker 5: to remove unhoused encampments. It culminates recently with President Trump's

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Speaker 5: wording of unhoused people, particularly in the Washington area. There

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Speaker 5: has been a success, I won't say successful, but a

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Speaker 5: successful anti Unhouse campaign. Hence my guest today. We're going

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Speaker 5: to talk about how her advocacy as well as how

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Speaker 5: visc interconnects with the mental health community and what steps

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Speaker 5: if we can take to educate our audience on the

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Speaker 5: realities of what mental health is according to Trump, Dan,

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Speaker 5: how's our bunch of mentally ill, violent, drug addicted people

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Speaker 5: that have been set upon tourists and residents of Washington,

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Speaker 5: DC and all around the country. And I want to

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Speaker 5: push back against that without fervado. Thank you Jesse for

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Speaker 5: stopping in tell us a little bit about yourself.

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Speaker 8: Thank you so much for that introduction in grounding THEO,

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Speaker 8: and I just want to express my gratitude for joining

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Speaker 8: you today and for the work that you do with

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Speaker 8: the podcast and just all of the work that you

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Speaker 8: do so needed and unfortunately especially needed right now. So

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Speaker 8: it's good to be here. And just for a little

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Speaker 8: bit about me. Yeah, my name's Jesse Roth, and I'm

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Speaker 8: the executive director of an organization called the Institute for

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Speaker 8: the Development of Human Arts for short, and we are

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Speaker 8: a transformative mental health training institute trying to really bring

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Speaker 8: kind of the activism and resistance by psychiatric survivors, trauma survivors,

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Speaker 8: people with lived experience of the mental health system or

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Speaker 8: trying to bridge that with mental health practice, including those

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Speaker 8: who are working within systems. And yeah, so we put

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Speaker 8: on trainings and classes, events, channels that are trying to

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Speaker 8: really show and uplift different ways of understanding and approaching

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Speaker 8: mental health that go beyond the sort of mainstream narrative

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Speaker 8: that tends to be very medicalized, individualized. And yeah, I'll

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Speaker 8: leave it at that for now. Thank you again for

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Speaker 8: having me.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you for giving us your introduction.

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Speaker 5: I'm just going to start off with the general conversation,

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Speaker 5: what are the myths that you hear when people are

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Speaker 5: dealing with mental health?

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Speaker 1: And we can kind of connect the dot from there.

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Speaker 9: So many myths.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I think one of the ones that I would

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Speaker 8: maybe start with, just to frame that some listeners in

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Speaker 8: your audience might be familiar with and others maybe less so,

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Speaker 8: is just even mentioned it when I was talking a

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Speaker 8: little bit about ida's work, that mental health is something

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Speaker 8: that is an exclusively medicalized issue that can be attributed

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Speaker 8: to you know, a person's brain chemistry and kind of

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Speaker 8: exists within you know, their like neurobiology. And I'll be brief,

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Speaker 8: but I want to just bring in a little bit

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Speaker 8: of history, a little bit of science. I say this,

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Speaker 8: by the way, let me situate myself a tiny bit more,

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Speaker 8: because I mostly just mentioned my role as ida's executive director.

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Speaker 8: I myself and a person with lived experience, a trauma survivor.

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Speaker 8: I'm not a mental health practitioner myself or a researcher.

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Speaker 8: I'm a community organizer, activist, and so I come to

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Speaker 8: this conversation from that position, and with that, you know,

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Speaker 8: rooting in a little bit of history and a little

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Speaker 8: bit of science. We see if we go back not

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Speaker 8: that long ago to just about the year nineteen eighty,

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Speaker 8: that this was the period of time where the dominant

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Speaker 8: narrative or story that we told about what causes you know,

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Speaker 8: what's called mental illness is attributed to like a chemical

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Speaker 8: imbalance in the brain. And before that, you know, the

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Speaker 8: dominant narrative or paradigm was more of a psychoanalytic one

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Speaker 8: or attributing you know to like like adverse childhood experiences

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Speaker 8: and trauma. Developmental psychology was a little bit more the mainstream.

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Speaker 8: And then around nineteen eighty a couple of things happened,

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Speaker 8: including you know what we had like Ronald Reagan as president,

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Speaker 8: and the economic model of that time, like the rise

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Speaker 8: of kind of like pharmaceutical industry. But then you pair

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Speaker 8: that with the publication of the third edition of the DSM,

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Speaker 8: the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, which is

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Speaker 8: kind of like the Bible for psychiatry. And this is

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Speaker 8: really when the medicalized brainwork for understanding mental health is

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Speaker 8: infiltrated the popular consciousness.

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Speaker 9: If you will.

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Speaker 8: And so I open with that to say that I

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Speaker 8: think we need to situate ourselves in the fact that

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Speaker 8: the reality is that research shows that there are still

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Speaker 8: no biomarkers that you know, have been able to be

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Speaker 8: located that show that a again quote unquote, mental illness,

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Speaker 8: a mental disorder can be attributed to like any specific

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Speaker 8: part of the brain. And I think that's important because

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Speaker 8: it is in the popular consciousness understood to be true

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Speaker 8: proven science. And the reality is we just we still

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Speaker 8: don't know. And so the other thing that's of course

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Speaker 8: left out when we have this dominant narrative or kind

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Speaker 8: of the pervading myth that mental health is caused by

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Speaker 8: chemical imbalances is that it's a way to not talk

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Speaker 8: about the social systemic factors that lead to why a

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Speaker 8: person might be well or not well, so you know,

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Speaker 8: to connect to the issues that you're exploring on your podcasts,

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Speaker 8: for example, just one like if a person is on

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Speaker 8: how they're living on the street, if somebody has been

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Speaker 8: living in poverty, if they're you know, navigating racism in America.

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Speaker 8: You know, for example, those are all things that would

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Speaker 8: obviously impact somebody's mental health. But generally, when when we're

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Speaker 8: like talking about you know, the dominant mainstream system, those

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Speaker 8: things aren't talked about much. If at all. There are

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Speaker 8: some spaces where they are a little bit, but the

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Speaker 8: you know, mainstream of someone's going into like an emergency

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Speaker 8: room or you know, mental health, like a psychiatric hospital,

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Speaker 8: the conversation tends to be about the brain. And so yeah,

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Speaker 8: what gets left out when we are operating in a

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Speaker 8: framework where we're making it about a person's brain and

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Speaker 8: not like what's happening to them in the world around them,

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Speaker 8: If that makes sense, So let me pause there. That's

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Speaker 8: that's one sort of myth to your question, but also

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Speaker 8: just complicating the narrative that many of us are socialized into.

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Speaker 5: I would say you mentioned Reagan earlier, and I know

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Speaker 5: many people there listening across the pond may not understand

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Speaker 5: the impact what President Reagan and why that name was mentioned,

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Speaker 5: and why that is very important into the mental health community.

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Speaker 1: Can you elaborate a little bit more on that.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, definitely. So like Reagan's approach to economics, you

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Speaker 8: know for sure, called Reaganomics was really defined by boosting

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Speaker 8: like the economy through more tax cuts, reduced spending, the regulation,

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Speaker 8: trying to control inflation through things like that. So the

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Speaker 8: outcome of this was like a widening income gap, increased

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Speaker 8: national debt and then a perceived shift towards like more greed.

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Speaker 8: I think again to connect that to some of the

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Speaker 8: issues that you're exploring here, just there is a direct

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Speaker 8: correlation to the economic policies of that time to like

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Speaker 8: increasingly the widening income gap contributing directly to more and

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Speaker 8: more folks having less housing.

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Speaker 5: The third thing I want to also connect, because why

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Speaker 5: Reagan also was important, is because around that time there

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Speaker 5: was a damning report that Reggan was responsible for releasing

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Speaker 5: people that had suffered from different other maladies, mental health

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Speaker 5: malodies out on the streets. It's been debated quite a

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Speaker 5: lot about that conversation that he was in response to

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Speaker 5: a judgment that he had to because of the poor

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Speaker 5: conditions and abusive conditions that many displaced people and as

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Speaker 5: well as people that were under hospital care were undergoing.

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Speaker 8: So absolutely, and actually I can say a little bit

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Speaker 8: more about that aspect of history too. What you're talking

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Speaker 8: about their THEO is the sort of the deinstitutionalization process

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Speaker 8: that happened throughout many decades and so under I suppose

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Speaker 8: numerous presidents. My understanding is that it started in the

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Speaker 8: sixties with JFK, who signed the Community Mental Health Act,

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Speaker 8: which closed down the federal asylums exactly for the reasons

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Speaker 8: that you said. There were many reasons including you know,

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Speaker 8: people coming to light, just like the abusive conditions, many

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Speaker 8: human rights violations. And then it's also coinciding with some

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Speaker 8: developments in the development of like antipsychotics, like more psychiatric medication,

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Speaker 8: which you know, the idea there is makes more like

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Speaker 8: care outside of institutions possible. And I also I was

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Speaker 8: going to talk about this in this process of our

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Speaker 8: conversation because there's a thing that happens in the way

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Speaker 8: that again the story of deinstitutionalization is told in this

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Speaker 8: country that leaves out important pieces. And also I would

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Speaker 8: say to your original question goes to another myth. So

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Speaker 8: there's a myth that deinstitutionalization again, whether you know by

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Speaker 8: under the Kennedy administration, under Reagan administration, the myth that

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Speaker 8: it quote unquote failed because now you know, if we

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Speaker 8: think about today the conversation, it's not uncommon to hear

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Speaker 8: like there's a lot of people living with mental health

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Speaker 8: conditions who are unhoused there on the street, and this

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Speaker 8: is because we deinstitutionalized, you know, like we emptied out

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Speaker 8: the asylums and now people are on the street, and

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Speaker 8: it frames it like we shouldn't have done that. Now,

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Speaker 8: this is the piece that gets left out. The Community

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Speaker 8: Mental Health Act in the sixties was supposed to do

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Speaker 8: more than one thing. It wasn't supposed to just empty

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Speaker 8: out asylums. It was supposed to create funded community mental

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Speaker 8: health centers, and that didn't happen. Really, so you have

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Speaker 8: you know, people who are being released who end up

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Speaker 8: on the street with nowhere to go. So again that's

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Speaker 8: really important because it's like the problem the fault of

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Speaker 8: that we have a crisis now you know people call

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Speaker 8: a mental health crisis or housing crisis. It is not

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Speaker 8: the fault of deinstitutionalizing. It is the fault of failing

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Speaker 8: to provide the community based care that was promised in

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Speaker 8: the first place. And that matters so much because it's

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Speaker 8: used to justify reinstitutionalation that that is the conversation that's

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Speaker 8: happening right now. There is basically a call by the

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Speaker 8: federal government and multiple states increasingly so. And now the

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Speaker 8: federal government has basically you know, green lit this so

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Speaker 8: everybody will feel comfortable, you know, pursuing policies of this

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Speaker 8: nature but to bring back the asylum right, like we

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Speaker 8: need more, we need more psychiatric beds, we need more

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Speaker 8: involuntary holds like what we were doing before, you know,

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Speaker 8: kind of like the history of the abuse got erased

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Speaker 8: from the public consciousness because instead it was just sort

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Speaker 8: of glazed over as this idea of oh, you know,

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Speaker 8: deinstitutionalizing that didn't work out so well, so maybe let's

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Speaker 8: go back. But I can talk more about why that

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Speaker 8: is aeverly horrible idea.

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Speaker 5: Also, if I may interject too, because I bring that

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Speaker 5: point up because this is so important for people that

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Speaker 5: don't understand on How's experience, it drives the disappearing act

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Speaker 5: of on house people. You don't want know where they go,

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Speaker 5: you don't want to see where they go. And one

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Speaker 5: of the solutions, and which is why again it really

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Speaker 5: ticked me off, is when President Trump has been advocating

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Speaker 5: for involuntary voluntary commitment. It's because that's the same thing

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Speaker 5: that has been driving why they are trying to remove

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Speaker 5: unhoused people. They don't want to see unhoused people, you know,

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Speaker 5: And I want to take it a step further, when

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Speaker 5: you force unhoused people in abusive shelters or cars, shelters

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Speaker 5: or car soral living situations. People don't understand why unhoused

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Speaker 5: people turn down those services. It's not that you know,

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Speaker 5: services are not necessarily being offered, but they are subpar

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Speaker 5: or has conditional car through kind of attachments to it.

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Speaker 5: But it's so important to say that because the conversation

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Speaker 5: always which is why we've been sounding the alarm with

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Speaker 5: this is why this is going to go hand in

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Speaker 5: hand now when they're running down unhoused people when they

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Speaker 5: have these laws, like right now, they have a certain

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Speaker 5: number of times that you could be offered services. If

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Speaker 5: you don't accept services, then obviously you're service resistant. Then

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Speaker 5: you're open yourself up into maybe involuntary voluntary commitment because

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Speaker 5: you're mentally ill, because you have to go to a

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Speaker 5: substance abuse shelter or a mental health shelter in order

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Speaker 5: to be qualified for those services. And this is why

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Speaker 5: it's so important why you're on the show, because that's

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Speaker 5: the link that I think more house people don't understand

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Speaker 5: when you hear one and they say no, we don't

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Speaker 5: want to go shelter, because these are the steps that

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Speaker 5: they're trying to do to do that, to force people

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Speaker 5: into care that may not be applicable to them. You know,

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Speaker 5: you may have health issues, but you're not mentally ill.

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Speaker 5: You just may have you know, cancer, or you may

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Speaker 5: have other maladies, but you are not on substances. But

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Speaker 5: you're going to be attached or connected to that. And

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Speaker 5: if you don't connect yourself to it willingly, then you're

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Speaker 5: your service resistant. Then you're susceptible to go.

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Speaker 1: Into jail exactly.

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Speaker 8: And this is why again I'm so grateful for the

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Speaker 8: invitation to be talking to you THEO, because these dynamics,

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Speaker 8: like the logics that underpin what you're talking about, the

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Speaker 8: same thing happens for people who are diagnosed with having

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Speaker 8: a mental illness or you know, perceived as having one.

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Speaker 8: And yeah, it's about exactly what you said. It's so

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Speaker 8: infuriating because it's framed through basically like a neoliberal lens

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Speaker 8: of like we're trying to help you, but it's actually

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Speaker 8: exactly what you mentioned, which is we want to disappear you.

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Speaker 8: We don't want to see you at all. And so

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Speaker 8: thank you for naming that part and also that aspect

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Speaker 8: of being labeled as quote unquote treatment resistant if you

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Speaker 8: don't want to, you know, use the services that research shows,

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Speaker 8: but not that we need research to show at decades

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Speaker 8: and generations of lived experience show are deeply harmful and ineffective.

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Speaker 8: Like to name just just one example, let me see

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Speaker 8: if I can find it of recent research that came

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Speaker 8: out anyways, and then I can situate as well a

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Speaker 8: little bit more the movement lineages.

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Speaker 9: But a study.

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Speaker 8: Recently came out a couple months ago that found that

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Speaker 8: people who were involuntarily hospitalized in mental health and psychiatric

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Speaker 8: hospitals in what were called kind of quote gray area cases,

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Speaker 8: and so those are cases where clinicians on a team

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Speaker 8: disagreed on whether a hold was necessary. The people who

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Speaker 8: were subject to that involuntary hospitalization were more likely to

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Speaker 8: die by suicide or overdose, face incarceration, lose their housing

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Speaker 8: or employment, and be further destabilized. So, you know, the

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Speaker 8: idea that's being sort of put forward in orders such

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Speaker 8: as this is that it's helpful.

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Speaker 9: But it's not.

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Speaker 8: So I think that's again where we get back into

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Speaker 8: And by the way, that's not to say that some

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Speaker 8: people haven't found those services helpful. It's important to uplift

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Speaker 8: the stories of those which are many who have been

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Speaker 8: deeply deeply harmed by this, And as I said, I

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Speaker 8: would just to situate myself in like the movement lineages

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Speaker 8: that I'm working in and organizing and of Mad Pride,

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Speaker 8: Mad Liberation, the psychiatric survivor movement. We're talking about decades

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Speaker 8: and generations. If people have been talking about this for

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Speaker 8: a very very long time, and I think that as

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Speaker 8: this conversation is happening, more people are.

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Speaker 9: Starting to pay attention. It's a very.

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Speaker 8: Scary time, don't get me wrong to have an executive

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Speaker 8: order like this come out, but there are people who

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Speaker 8: I think are starting to hopefully listen a little bit

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Speaker 8: more or be attuned to, Hey, let's listen to the

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Speaker 8: people who've been subject to these measures for a very

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Speaker 8: long time and have been telling us not only is

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Speaker 8: this ineffective, like this did not help me, this deeply

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Speaker 8: harmed me. And then one more thing, just back to

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Speaker 8: that point of being labeled quote unquote treatment resistant. And

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Speaker 8: I'm interested to hear if you have more thoughts about

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Speaker 8: how you've seen that play out in your own community.

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Speaker 8: But like it sounds similar based on what you're saying

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Speaker 8: of the way that that's used in mental health settings,

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Speaker 8: is it's used to justify why you need to be

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Speaker 8: locked up. It's very maddene to be honest. There's this term,

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Speaker 8: let me see if I can say, it's called annosagnosia.

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Speaker 8: It's a big word, and it is said to explain

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Speaker 8: that people who have mental health conditions lack insight into

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Speaker 8: their condition. And so you know that is a blanket

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Speaker 8: way that the quote unquote expert is saying, you don't

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Speaker 8: know like your own experience, which I think it's like

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Speaker 8: one of the just immensely violent, like that is just

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Speaker 8: such violence.

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Speaker 5: And on how terms they're saying, Well, there's two things

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Speaker 5: that they say they like because I have people close

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Speaker 5: to me when I was displaced.

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Speaker 1: They like being out there.

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Speaker 5: They are they don't want to accept responsibility for taking

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Speaker 5: care of themselves. So those two subtle things. I'm glad

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Speaker 5: you're mentioning the terminology and I'm not going to even

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Speaker 5: try to say it because it's kept tongue twisted. But

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Speaker 5: it's used against unhoused people to justify why they can

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Speaker 5: go to jail, why they can be ticketed and while

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Speaker 5: and even more violently take their belongings and throw them away.

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Speaker 5: So it's so it's so uncanny. Some of the connections

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Speaker 5: that is being used with people that are suffering from

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Speaker 5: the different other maladies or are maybe not. The second

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Speaker 5: example that I want to point out to being in

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Speaker 5: house is not We're not a monolift and people are

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Speaker 5: on house for multitude of reasons. But I'll give you

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Speaker 5: a good example of how this is used against people.

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Speaker 5: For example, I had a guest on that she was

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Speaker 5: fleeing domestic abuse, didn't suffer from any other malody, just

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Speaker 5: from trying to get her kids to get out of

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Speaker 5: the abusive situation and the forced commitment. The force commitment

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Speaker 5: they're trying to get her committed made her more wary

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Speaker 5: of going to get help because of them trying to

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Speaker 5: put her into some kind of box. She had to

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Speaker 5: be mentally ill because she stayed with her husband for

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Speaker 5: seven years and he was attacking her even though she

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Speaker 5: was trying to explain that she's been going to police,

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Speaker 5: getting a restrained or disappearing leaving the place, and he's

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Speaker 5: talking her. This is not necessarily issues of dealing with

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Speaker 5: mental health or substance usage. This is a woman that's

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Speaker 5: fleeing her husband and she's afraid, and the system is

437
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 5: only set up for or I guess the conversation had

438
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 5: only leaned toward that. Now they've seen her out there

439
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 5: living in her car with her kids, people would automatically

440
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 5: judge and says that she doesn't love her kids, why

441
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 5: would she have him out here? She's abusive or she

442
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,679
Speaker 5: obviously would again queue in the music, she's obviously suffered

443
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 5: from some kind of mental health problem. So we have

444
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 5: to take her kids and put her in some system

445
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 5: or program, and in order to keep her kids or

446
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 5: try to fine some kind of help, that forces her

447
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 5: to only go into that cookie cutter solution.

448
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 9: Yeah.

449
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 8: No, I mean it's it's a potent example of heartbreaking

450
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,360
Speaker 8: to know that that's happening to her, that's happened to her,

451
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 8: And I think it illustrates like what we've been talking about.

452
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 8: And as I said at the beginning, you know, in

453
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 8: a mental health context, more often than not, much more

454
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 8: often than not, someone you know is brought to the

455
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 8: psyche ward what is going on in their life is

456
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 8: not really considered either at all or as nearly as

457
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 8: much as it should be. Right, it's kind of just like,

458
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 8: how are you presenting symptom management? Like you know, and

459
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 8: so it's it's just heartbreaking because that's take that context

460
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 8: into consideration, and if if we started from a you know,

461
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 8: listening and listening to centering a person's story, we would

462
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 8: end up with really dramatically different outcomes. But I think

463
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 8: it just reveals that the systems that we have are

464
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,719
Speaker 8: just foundationally built, not on what's helpful, you know, in

465
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 8: my opinion. So yeah, a lot of work needs to

466
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 8: be done.

467
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 5: When we come back more with Jesse, Welcome back this

468
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 5: Isteil Henderson. Here's the second part of our.

469
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 1: Interview with Jesse Ross.

470
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,199
Speaker 5: I want to get your insight on how do you

471
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 5: see the direction of mental health education. Do you see

472
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 5: advancing in a more progressive, positive way or do you

473
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 5: see it regressing?

474
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 8: Yeah, thank you for that question. So from where I

475
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 8: sait like the work that I'm doing again running an

476
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 8: organization that's doing more politicized you know, lived experience focused

477
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 8: education ADA exists. We were founded almost ten years ago,

478
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 8: so we were founded because of a gap that I

479
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 8: understand still exists, though I can speak about how it

480
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,959
Speaker 8: hopefully is shifting outside of IDA, but a gap that

481
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 8: when people are training to become mental health practitioners of

482
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 8: different kinds, so social workers therapists, psychologists, even pure specialists

483
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 8: in the system, even psychiatrists, you know, medical doctors have

484
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 8: different types. When they're being trained, they are not being

485
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,959
Speaker 8: exposed to a lot of the history, including a lot

486
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 8: of the history that I mentioned, lived experience, voices and stories,

487
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 8: and critically all of this the multitude of different care

488
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 8: approaches that exist beyond the things that we've talked about

489
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 8: that are you know, the frontline. You know what the

490
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 8: system offers, which are hospitalization and medication usually and so again,

491
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 8: not to say that people haven't found those things helpful,

492
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 8: but there are so many different you know, types of therapy,

493
00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 8: and then we go beyond the system at all, type

494
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 8: of you know, peer support, grassroots mutual aid. Like I

495
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 8: could give a few examples if that would be interesting.

496
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 8: But to answer your question, people aren't learning a lot

497
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 8: of the ways that we can care for one another

498
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 8: in less harmful, punitive frankly Carcole ways. And so my

499
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 8: understanding is like that that is still true to a

500
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 8: large extent if you're looking at kind of the mainstream

501
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 8: education setting. Certainly some you know, maybe social work programs

502
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 8: are more progressive than others, but you know, having spent

503
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 8: many years also supervising some social work interns and we're

504
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 8: working with them through IDA. I've heard and having just

505
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 8: like I said, I'm not a clinician myself, but having

506
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 8: a lot of clinicians like come to our programs, I

507
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 8: really get the sense that it's there's glimmers of hope, right,

508
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 8: but it's not changed that much. Like if people want

509
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 8: to find out about the more you know, nuanced aspect

510
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 8: of history, are these like quote unquote alternatives And I

511
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 8: put that in quotes because the goal is that there

512
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 8: aren't alternative, right, there's still that's where it is still

513
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 8: operating and kind of a model of resisting like the

514
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 8: biomedical if that makes sense. But all of this to say,

515
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 8: spaces where people can be exposed to these ideas are

516
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 8: still very far and few between. IDA is one of them.

517
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 8: Let me say this, outside of the what I'm kind

518
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 8: of referring to the dominant or like the mainstream education

519
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 8: system for mental health, and I'm talking about providers specifically

520
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 8: in this, I think it's still a.

521
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 9: Long way to go.

522
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 8: If you if you look at organizations, grassroots movements and

523
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 8: you know, informal collectives and things like that, nature there's

524
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 8: actually been a lot more in the last decade, So

525
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 8: I think to me, that's where the most promising stuff

526
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 8: is happening. Is just that IDA is one of many

527
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 8: organizations in a wider ecosystem that is offering trainings and

528
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 8: education or free content informational stuff on social media, like

529
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 8: explaining and introducing.

530
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 9: More people to this.

531
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 8: So that's how I would answer it is like the

532
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 8: change is happening as.

533
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 9: It usually does at the grassroots level.

534
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, do you predict with all of the violent

535
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 5: changes that President Trump is introducing, like the reduction of snap,

536
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 5: the impact on medicaid and medicare the executive order? Do

537
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 5: you pretend that this will have a negative impact on

538
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 5: the communities that are or maybe not necessarily or going

539
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 5: to be impacted in the system. Do you think there

540
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 5: is going to be any kind of change or is

541
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 5: it going to stay to say.

542
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 8: Oh, definitely negative, negative change for sure. And one thing

543
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 8: I want to say to just about like the enforceability

544
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 8: of this. My understanding maybe you can speak to this

545
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 8: is it might be similar to some of the other

546
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 8: executive orders.

547
00:32:58,080 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 9: Is just just.

548
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 8: To frame my understanding, is that something like involuntary commitment measures,

549
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 8: these are controlled at the state level, so you know,

550
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 8: Trump can put out an executive order saying you know,

551
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 8: the intention is for this to be enacted in the

552
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 8: entire country. I believe like this is serious and very

553
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 8: scary because of what it signals to the states, But

554
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 8: it doesn't in and of itself upturn the measures that

555
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 8: are in place at the state level. So I want

556
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 8: to start by just naming that and also just pausing

557
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 8: to ask you is there a similar sense with some

558
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 8: of the other like legislation or executive orders you're familiar with.

559
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 5: Since Grant's Pass has passed, that has overturned the Ninth

560
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 5: Circuit appeal of Boise judgment. The Boise ruling stopped and

561
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 5: slowed down state and cities reactions on aggressively targeting unhouse people.

562
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 5: With Grant's pass as being upheld and unruled, it is

563
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 5: now open season, which is why you see across the

564
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 5: draconian ordnances and laws that are being pitted against dundhouse people.

565
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 5: For example, even though Trump has given that executive order,

566
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,760
Speaker 5: he still has the power to go on national public

567
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 5: property and remove unhoused people, which he has done. But

568
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 5: it also gives more inspiration to the cities and states

569
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 5: like Gavin Newsombudo. He's being touted as going toe to

570
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 5: told with Trump, but he sent out an executive order

571
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 5: giving powers to cities and mayors to go aggressively against

572
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 5: dunhouse people. With this Encampment Resolution fund all of these

573
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 5: kind of new laws that they are motivating and inspiring

574
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 5: cities to take up to target on the house people.

575
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 5: So it has a direct impact. This inspiration from the

576
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 5: cities from like say example, Los Angeles, which is forty

577
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 5: one eighteen, coupled with Grant's past now has provided more

578
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 5: inspiration what cities and states just really target unhoused people.

579
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 5: And I can also foresee in the future because when

580
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 5: we go at the mutual Aid like this Saturday, the

581
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 5: increased number of displaced people, the increased number of food

582
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 5: insecure people, the increased number of housing insecure people is

583
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 5: going to balloon to a point where people are going

584
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 5: to have to really evaluate how they treat the poor

585
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 5: of us. You know, you can gauge how a city

586
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 5: or a country treats its poorest citizen and you can

587
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 5: come walk away with understanding the true character of that.

588
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 1: And right now we have.

589
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 5: Our whole society really does not give the dignity that

590
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 5: they requires with unhoused community members.

591
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: So I hopefully I answered that question.

592
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 8: Absolutely no, and you explained it so well. And I

593
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,439
Speaker 8: think it's exactly the same as with this executive order

594
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 8: as it kind of impacts communities of people with mental

595
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 8: health challenges, it emboldens the states and cities to follow

596
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 8: the lead right of what this executive order is saying.

597
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 8: So wanted to clarify the piece about kind of like

598
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 8: immediate implications, but certainly what you said is what I

599
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:17,720
Speaker 8: think people in the mad Liberation, disability justice community everyone

600
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 8: is bracing for is exactly as you described. And I

601
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 8: did want to touch on a point that I appreciate

602
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 8: you mentioning as well, about how we see both Trump

603
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 8: having these carcorole draconian policies. And then you mentioned Governor Newsom.

604
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 8: I'll add to the mix of yet another Democratic mayor

605
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 8: or Democratic official, Mayor Eric Adams here in New York

606
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 8: City where I'm based. Yeah, just over the last two years,

607
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 8: basically on the same timeline as what Gavin Newsom's been

608
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 8: doing in California has been I really think it was

609
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 8: the roadmap, in my opinion, that Trump followed for this

610
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 8: executive orders. What's been happening in New York City and

611
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 8: throughout the state of California in terms of the rhetoric

612
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 8: has been the same. So that's the other There's a

613
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 8: few things I'm trying to pull out. One is that

614
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:11,800
Speaker 8: these are bipartisan policies left right, you know, sweeping on

615
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 8: housed communities, people with mental health challenges off the street

616
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 8: is not a matter of Democrat and Republican. So I

617
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 8: appreciate you speaking to that. And then the other pieces

618
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 8: that while yes, what's happening is really scary and it

619
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,919
Speaker 8: is totally an escalation of what we've been seeing, it's

620
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 8: not entirely new.

621
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 9: So people have.

622
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 8: Been organizing for many years against what's been happening throughout

623
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 8: multiple states, including New York and California. So yeah, I

624
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 8: think there's an opportunity for like, what have we learned

625
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 8: from that? You know, there's a number of activists. I

626
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 8: will give a shout out to folks, you know, from

627
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 8: Disability Rights California who've been resisting the Care Court nonsense

628
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 8: that's happening in California, and then a lot of people

629
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 8: on the ground in New York resisting you know, basically

630
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 8: Eric Adams has also been sweeping on house communities off

631
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 8: the street into psychiatric hospitals for years. That's been his

632
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 8: policy agenda since I think the end of twenty twenty two.

633
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 8: So with that, I think going back a little bit

634
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 8: to your original question, like what will be the impact

635
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 8: just like, undoubtedly worse without question if more and more

636
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 8: people are being brought to psychiatric hospitals and being committed

637
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 8: against their well. Now, there's a lot of impacts and

638
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 8: I won't maybe try to go into all of them,

639
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 8: but as I've said, it will on the whole not

640
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 8: be effective at solving the quote unquote mental health crisis

641
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 8: because what happens, and we know is that people go

642
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 8: into you know, if they go in involuntarily, you can,

643
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 8: you can stay for a limited amount of time and

644
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 8: then you're released, especially if you're coming in, if someone's

645
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 8: brought in from living on the street, where do they

646
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 8: go after? You know, it does not solve This is

647
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 8: the thing that I know that we could talk about,

648
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 8: but we know it's just in the room with us.

649
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 8: This doesn't get at the root issue. These are ineffective

650
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 8: measures and then they are deeply harmful. Are going to

651
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 8: have more trauma more harm and we're not gonna and

652
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 8: just you know, if an economic argument is of interest

653
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 8: anyone wasted resources and not actually solving the problem, which

654
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 8: goes back to the point at hand too, of if

655
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 8: all of that really is where we land when we're

656
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 8: having this conversation, it really can only further show that

657
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 8: this isn't about helping people, you see.

658
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 9: So, yeah, I agree, I.

659
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 5: Know you don't, couldn't could say better, And I really

660
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 5: not to beat a dead horse, try and trying to

661
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 5: bring together or crystallize the moment and the point in

662
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 5: the conversation of how they use communities to get their

663
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 5: deeper agenda of harbing people, not really helping them, no

664
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 5: matter if it's unhow it's community members or people that

665
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 5: are suffering from mental challenges or complexities. These things are

666
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 5: used in order to push them into a box or

667
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 5: a corner, to either erase them or to minimize their

668
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 5: presence in society, you know, according to you know, white

669
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 5: supremacist or capitalistic notions of what normalcy is or what

670
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 5: should be pristine, or what should be an idyllic kind

671
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 5: of community, if.

672
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 8: You will, Yeah, absolutely well said.

673
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,799
Speaker 5: Well, I don't want to hold you completely too long.

674
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 5: But is there anything else that we missed that you

675
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 5: would like to talk on.

676
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 8: I think one thing that is a through line of

677
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 8: just you and I having this conversation, given you know,

678
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 8: the work that you do and the work that I do,

679
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 8: is I want to put like a I guess a

680
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:42,839
Speaker 8: finer point and maybe hear some more of your thoughts

681
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 8: too about the importance of cross movement organizing in this time.

682
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 8: So I'll share a few thoughts and then I would

683
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 8: love to hear from you on this THEO. When the

684
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:57,280
Speaker 8: executive order came out, it was terrifying, as we've named,

685
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 8: and also I was heartened to see the the volume

686
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 8: of organizations that quickly came back with, you know, statements

687
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,839
Speaker 8: condemning it, you know, saying like this is not the way.

688
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 8: And just to name like from a few different movements

689
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 8: or issue areas, you know, mental health organizations, disability rights

690
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 8: and disability justice organizations, harm reduction coalitions, you know, organizations

691
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 8: fighting for rights of unhoused communities, just just to name

692
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 8: a few. And so I think what a moment like

693
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 8: this reveals and I don't necessarily want to make it,

694
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 8: you know, to like crisis opportunity like it is it

695
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 8: is a crisis and it's very scary, but this is

696
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 8: also a bit of an opportunity for us all to

697
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 8: come together because, as we've said, as we're talking, like

698
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 8: there are some parallels that aren't a coincidence about how

699
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 8: you know, my community members, your community members have been

700
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 8: have been treated over not just like the last let's say,

701
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 8: a couple of weeks, months, years, but like generationally throughout

702
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 8: history and the history of this country, and like, yeah,

703
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 8: that's not a coincidence, and we have different wisdom and

704
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 8: lessons learned to pool that will obviously like make us

705
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 8: stronger together. And so maybe that's an initial thought about

706
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 8: this is I just feel very passionate and like, if

707
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 8: there's a place that I can find my hope right now,

708
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 8: it is on this topic of saying, okay, like we

709
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 8: need to be talking to people who are working in

710
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 8: like movements that are maybe not exactly our own. But

711
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,240
Speaker 8: at the end of the day, if we are all

712
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 8: those of us, you know, who are oriented towards a

713
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,839
Speaker 8: collective liberation, lens that nobody's free until we're all free. Right,

714
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 8: If you're only fighting for the rights of people diagnosed with,

715
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 8: you know, mental health conditions, you're only fighting for the

716
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 8: rights of un house people, like we need to be

717
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 8: fighting for all of us, and so I think this

718
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 8: is a moment where that's more needed than ever. But

719
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 8: like I can see the potential, feel it more than ever.

720
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 8: So I'm curious to hear some of your thoughts on

721
00:42:58,719 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 8: that too.

722
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 1: I agree with you as well.

723
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 5: One of the things that I know an initiae in

724
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 5: the infancy of the movements, when the pandemic was happening,

725
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 5: that conversation was floated around, and I think it was

726
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 5: kind of because of the system is so broken, and

727
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 5: there are so many pieces to the broken system that

728
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 5: it's just like, for example, that you have a broken

729
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 5: vase and then you patch it up and you put

730
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 5: water in it, and you're still trying to put the

731
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 5: pieces together. Sometimes it can be overwhelming trying to get

732
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 5: one piece there from there. But what I think what

733
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 5: really is crystallizing the moment, and most recently, is the

734
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 5: conversations and the alarm that's happening with deportations. I think

735
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 5: that has been more violent in your face. Prior to that,

736
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 5: I think the conversations were the moral outrage of what

737
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 5: was going on with Palestine and the gosp conversation and

738
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 5: the abuse and the practices there. And even though in

739
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,919
Speaker 5: one of the things that I made, and I wish

740
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 5: I had to take the statement back, but I was

741
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 5: trying to sound the alarmed with the protesters at the time,

742
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 5: like Okay, look in front of you, look around with

743
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 5: the young.

744
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 1: The house community.

745
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 5: You have walked past on house people being treated badly

746
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 5: with forty one to eighteen and other demonizing and criminalizing actions,

747
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:25,760
Speaker 5: and we need that kind of, like you say, across cultural,

748
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 5: across movement type of advocacy too, Like when there are sweeps,

749
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 5: we need you to show up and make that staying

750
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 5: loud presence too. What's been going on with the deportations.

751
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 5: I think it just took people back because you you

752
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 5: are seeing violence given by the government and in a

753
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 5: way that you cannot explain it away. You cannot keep

754
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 5: saying that all of these people are criminals, or you

755
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,800
Speaker 5: cannot say that a five year old is an MS

756
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 5: was an MS thirteen gang member. It's too much in

757
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 5: your face to see that, and then you having to

758
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 5: face with you're not going to be able to make

759
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 5: your rent. This recent episode I've been doing.

760
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 1: I did.

761
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,839
Speaker 5: I would south there at Thermo Valley of California, and

762
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 5: these two farms have been shut down because the community,

763
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 5: the undocumented community cannot go to work because they're targeted

764
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 5: or they're afraid to go to work and being snatched

765
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:26,760
Speaker 5: and have their families displaced. More importantly, they're not coming

766
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,879
Speaker 5: in to get the food services and resources that they need.

767
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:34,879
Speaker 5: Various more and more unhoused undocumented community members that are

768
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 5: in fear that they're going to be snatched.

769
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,320
Speaker 1: Really there's no support to get them back.

770
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 5: Whereas you have, like when I was pointing out the

771
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 5: undocumented house community, that someone is going to say something

772
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 5: that some lawyer is going to run to their defense.

773
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 5: There's someone that's going to make us think about it.

774
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 5: But when you target people that are on the fields

775
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 5: and they are undocumented and unhoused, that privilege is not

776
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:04,399
Speaker 5: afforded to it. And I wanted to point that out

777
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 5: with this episode and why there's different strategies. If you

778
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 5: hear in an interview, like one of the farm workers

779
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 5: is saying the couple is thinking about one spouse is

780
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 5: quipping the job so to take care of the kids,

781
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 5: and the other one has become the bread whether just

782
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 5: in case they get snatched these kinds of things. If

783
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 5: you're taking people's kids at school, there's only accepted listed

784
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 5: of people that could take the kids. Now they got

785
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 5: to draw up another list just in case both parents

786
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 5: are taking who's going to take care of the kids.

787
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 5: You know, you're leaving kids at home after snatching them,

788
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 5: or you're placing them. So those things. In my interview

789
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 5: with Sonya this week is these real issues are families

790
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 5: are facing, that people are unintended consequences that's going on too.

791
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 8: I definitely want to listen to that most recent episode

792
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 8: that you did and again bringing in another interconnection of

793
00:46:56,239 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 8: how all of this can't be this kind of from

794
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 8: what's happening and you know fight for like around immigration

795
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 8: and what's happening with the deportation. So like those of

796
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:10,320
Speaker 8: us who are organizing in our specific areas, it's like

797
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,919
Speaker 8: an encouragement to of course just pay attention to what's

798
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:17,240
Speaker 8: happening in the country, but to be looking across movements

799
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 8: and talking to you know, your friends, your comrades who

800
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 8: are who are doing different work and forming more you know,

801
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:26,480
Speaker 8: alliances and building more solidarity because I just think it's

802
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 8: what's so needed right now, and and another thread that

803
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 8: I would pull out to maybe really briefly THEO when

804
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 8: you mentioned Palestine in Gaza. There's one other maybe like term.

805
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 8: I'll introduce it as we come towards the end, this

806
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 8: idea of necro politics, which is you could understand that

807
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 8: is the way that the state has the power to

808
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 8: decide who who lives and who's marked for death. And

809
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 8: so there's you know, a lot of examples that we

810
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 8: can use from just like recent times that we're living

811
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 8: in that demonstrate this idea. You know that policies being

812
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:06,280
Speaker 8: framed as protective or compassionate, but in reality, people's lives,

813
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 8: some people's lives are sacrificed in order to preserve the

814
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:14,359
Speaker 8: safety perceived safety of others. So for example, I bring

815
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 8: in Palestine again because global genocide is being funded by

816
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:19,879
Speaker 8: the United States, and Palestine are an example of that,

817
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 8: as are increased funding for prisons and ice while we're

818
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 8: slashing medicaid and the housing and education and all that.

819
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:30,759
Speaker 8: And we could also talk of course about like the

820
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 8: pandemic responses that left disabled and poor racialized communities to die.

821
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 8: So it's all connected, as I think we know and

822
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 8: are increasingly seeing.

823
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 5: So yeah, thank you for showing it. It's been my

824
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 5: aim since I've been doing this show to not only

825
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 5: show the issues with houselessness, but how they are it,

826
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 5: to connect it, and which is why I wanted you

827
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,479
Speaker 5: on the show. The show to reach out to see

828
00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 5: commonalities that we have and sometimes our society don't show

829
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 5: that because we are, you know, sometimes feeling that vase

830
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 5: that's cracked, you know, trying to deal with those subset

831
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,399
Speaker 5: of issues, but they are at a whole connected, and

832
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,319
Speaker 5: I wanted to continue to do that, reach out to

833
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 5: my existing communities, but also communities that are working side

834
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 5: by side previously with the food justice community. Shout out

835
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:28,440
Speaker 5: to Melissa Sosadero. She and I partnered, She helped helped

836
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 5: me feed the unhoused community during the pandemic, and her

837
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 5: noticing these similarities but also the impact on where she's

838
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 5: dealing with the undocumented community and the undoctumunity on house

839
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 5: community and seeing the connections and asking me to come

840
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 5: out there to see what's going on and how this

841
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 5: with this executive order now, the deportations, each of these

842
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 5: draconian ideals and messages and attempts to erase vulnerable poor people.

843
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:02,759
Speaker 5: It's basically a war on for people financially insecure or

844
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 5: people that are not in a subset of people that

845
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 5: they are trying to make America in a dystopian type

846
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 5: of way.

847
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:12,439
Speaker 4: Yeah.

848
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 8: Absolutely, And I did think of actually one more thing

849
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 8: I could add if there's time for.

850
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,839
Speaker 1: That, which was sure sure on the.

851
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 8: Point of if anybody's looking for what you can do,

852
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 8: there's hopefully you know, I think there's a lot that

853
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:27,760
Speaker 8: can be done, and just a few things I wanted

854
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,759
Speaker 8: to put out there. One is for folks who might

855
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 8: be listening and aren't as familiar with maybe the social

856
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:39,760
Speaker 8: movements that I mentioned, Mad Pride, mad Liberation, disability justice,

857
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:43,320
Speaker 8: I would encourage people to learn more about those histories,

858
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:47,800
Speaker 8: both so that the you know, shared analysis and resistance

859
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 8: that we have can be rooted in that wisdom because

860
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 8: it's been practiced and the fight's been going on for

861
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:57,959
Speaker 8: a very long time, but also because the community care

862
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 8: practices that are now more needed than ever. Right when

863
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 8: you think about the dismantling of services and slashing medicaid,

864
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 8: many communities have had no choice but to care for

865
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 8: each other outside of systems due to their violence and

866
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 8: for a long time. But this is a time where

867
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 8: all of us would do well to understand, like how

868
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 8: we can take care of ourselves and each other outside

869
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 8: of systems. So looking up things just to name a few,

870
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 8: like about pod mapping, mad mapping, looking up things like

871
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 8: pure respite centers which are alternatives to hospitalization. There are

872
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Speaker 8: a lot of services that are out there, services in

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Speaker 8: and outside the system, but especially outside the system, that

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Speaker 8: I would just encourage folks to learn more about so

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Speaker 8: that you can if you need to care for yourself,

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Speaker 8: if you need to care for your community, just to

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Speaker 8: be kind of equipped with a little bit more of

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Speaker 8: that knowledge. And then, like I said, attributing it to

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Speaker 8: the mad and disabled people who created all of these practices.

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Speaker 9: Out of survival.

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Speaker 8: So if you want to learn morea one place that

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Speaker 8: you can learn more about that, But there's many other organizations.

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Speaker 9: And that's what I wanted to end.

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Speaker 8: With us, a little bit of maybe where you can

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Speaker 8: go from here.

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Speaker 9: One idea perfect.

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Speaker 5: Thank you very much, mis Roth, and I hope everyone

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Speaker 5: learned something today.

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Speaker 9: Thank you again just so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much.

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Speaker 5: Thank you so much to Jesse for her time and

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Speaker 5: her work, which you can learn more about at the

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Speaker 5: links in the description, thank you all for listening to

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Speaker 5: another dynamic episode of Weedian House. If you have a

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Speaker 5: story you'd like to share, please reach out to me

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Speaker 5: at weediandhousat gmail dot com or weedian House on Instagram.

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Speaker 5: Until then, may we again meet in the light of understanding.

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Speaker 5: Weedian House is a production of iHeartRadio. It is written, hosted,

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Speaker 5: and created by me, theo Hendersons, Jamie Loftus, Hailey Fager,

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Speaker 5: Katie Fischer, and Lyra Smith. Our editor is Adam Want,

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00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 5: our engineer is Joel Jerome, and our local art is

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Speaker 5: also by Katie Fisher.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening.