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Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host,

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Speaker 1: Elisa Donovan.

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Speaker 2: Hey, everybody. Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller.

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Speaker 2: Some of the most disturbing true crime cases aren't shocking

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Speaker 2: because of how violent they begin. They're shocking because they

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Speaker 2: begin so quietly. At just 14 years old, Tanya Cash

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Speaker 2: was groomed by a trusted school security guard. who spent

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Speaker 2: years manipulating her before holding her captive for nearly a decade.

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Speaker 2: Lifetime's The Girl Locked Upstairs, The Tanya Katz Story, examines

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Speaker 2: not only Tanya's extraordinary survival, but also the psychology of grooming,

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Speaker 2: coercive control, and how predators can hide in plain sight. Today,

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Speaker 2: I'm joined by actor Robert Baker, who portrays Tom Hose. Together,

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Speaker 2: we'll explore what makes this case so psychologically unsettling, why

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Speaker 2: grooming is still so widely misunderstood, and what this remarkable

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Speaker 2: true story can teach us about recognizing manipulation before it's

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Speaker 2: too late. Robert, thank you so much for joining me today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for having me. Glad to be here.

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Speaker 2: You have played some very complex and dangerous characters in

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Speaker 2: your career over the years, but this is really, uh,

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Speaker 2: this had to be a bit different. We spoke with

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Speaker 2: Jordan who was singing your praises and said, yeah, like how,

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Speaker 2: how much easier you made some of the things that

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Speaker 2: could have been extraordinarily difficult.

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Speaker 1: Um, so she says, hello.

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Speaker 2: Good. Good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: We definitely tried to make it as, as, uh, a

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Speaker 3: safe environment to do what we had to do to tell, that, uh,

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Speaker 3: harrowing story, you know?

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So Tom hose is a real person, a real

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Speaker 2: man who groomed and held Tanya cash captive for nearly

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Speaker 2: a decade. What was your first reaction when you read

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Speaker 2: the script?

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Speaker 3: I was, I was shocked that it was for so long,

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Speaker 3: but he held her for 10 years. Like you said,

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Speaker 3: And four of it, nobody knew she was there because

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Speaker 3: she was so young. And he lived with his parents,

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Speaker 3: you know, like he was just upstairs from his parents downstairs.

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Speaker 1: So the fact that they.

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Speaker 3: Honestly, the fact that they got away with it for

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Speaker 3: that long just blew my mind. It just shows how

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Speaker 3: little some people pay attention to anything, to their surroundings,

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Speaker 3: to anything that is going on.

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Speaker 1: It's like how do you miss that?

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Speaker 3: And this wasn't in the movie, but he had a

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Speaker 3: teenage son who lived in the.

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Speaker 1: Room with them.

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Speaker 2: Wait, so I'm so glad you're bringing this up because

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Speaker 2: I had read that, that he had a son. Tell

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Speaker 2: me what you know about that.

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Speaker 3: Just that the son was, well, it's nothing good, of course.

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Speaker 1: The son lived in the room with them.

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Speaker 2: He was a teenager, did you say?

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Speaker 1: I think he was a young teenager, like 13, 14,

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Speaker 1: like young.

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Speaker 2: And he lived in the room in the same room.

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Speaker 1: That is what I was told.

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Speaker 3: That is what I was told, which seems it makes

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Speaker 3: it even more difficult to believe that it's even more

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Speaker 3: astounding that this was just kept secret for so long.

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Speaker 1: It's just mind boggling to me.

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Speaker 3: That was so like when I first read it and I,

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Speaker 3: I was, I was really just kind of like, wait, what?

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Speaker 1: I was like, this is true.

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Speaker 3: And then I, you know, cause it was one of

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Speaker 3: those gigs that you get an offer on Friday and

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Speaker 3: they're like, you're flying on Tuesday. That kind of, it

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Speaker 3: was one of those like family was in town, out

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Speaker 3: of town.

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Speaker 1: And the whole thing.

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Speaker 2: So it was just like, come.

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Speaker 1: On, read it.

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Speaker 3: You know, it was like, I had to put the

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Speaker 3: kids in front of the TV to sit down and read.

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Speaker 1: It was that kind of a, that kind of a day. Right.

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Speaker 3: So I, you know, I didn't know anything about it

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Speaker 3: before I got it. And then I got it and

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Speaker 3: I read it and I was just like, I was,

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Speaker 3: you know, I was like, this is real. And then,

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Speaker 3: you know, I did a little research and saw about it.

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Speaker 1: And then I took the role.

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Speaker 3: And then when we flew up, we discussed, you know,

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Speaker 3: then with the director and with, with Jordan, we, you know,

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Speaker 3: we were able to sit and talk about it and, and,

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Speaker 3: and figure out some of the reality of what was

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Speaker 3: going on. And then after it was over, we did,

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Speaker 3: we spoke to Tanya a little bit about, about, what

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Speaker 3: her experience of kind of having all this stuff come

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Speaker 3: up fresh was, was like for her. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Was that Jordan said she was on a zoom with her.

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Speaker 2: Is that the same that you guys were? Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We were both, we were both on that one. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, she seems to be very pleased, which is

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Speaker 2: a strange word, but like very, She feels like you both,

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Speaker 2: you did justice to her story. So that has to

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Speaker 2: feel good.

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Speaker 1: Great. That's what counts, right? Yeah, it does. It does.

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Speaker 3: That's very important. You know, when you put something like

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Speaker 3: that out there, you're kind of like, ooh.

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Speaker 1: All right.

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Speaker 3: So if for no one else, then for her to

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Speaker 3: see that and feel like what she went through was

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Speaker 3: told in a way that could do anything to give

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Speaker 3: her any sort of peace or peace.

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Speaker 1: Of mind or healing, then there you go. you know,

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Speaker 1: then it's worth it for that.

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Speaker 2: Oh, for sure. I mean, I feel like that's the whole,

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Speaker 2: you know, Elizabeth Smart, who is an executive producer of

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Speaker 2: this movie, who is just, I have to stop saying

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Speaker 2: how extraordinary I think she is because it's getting weird,

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Speaker 2: but I really do. I'm so impressed with her and

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Speaker 2: what she has, how she's chosen to handle her life.

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Speaker 2: But she has said that Oftentimes, the reason that she

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Speaker 2: told her story for the movie about her abduction is,

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Speaker 2: I mean, for a lot of things to help her

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Speaker 2: to heal. But she said often, like, why, when asked

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Speaker 2: the question, why do we make movies and TV shows

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Speaker 2: about these things? And she said, oftentimes, it's easier for

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Speaker 2: us to kind of really understand the impact of something

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Speaker 2: through story and through narrative. And I think that's so

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Speaker 2: powerful and that's exactly what this is for.

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Speaker 3: It also like it, it puts it at a distance

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Speaker 3: maybe where you can kind of absorb it as opposed

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Speaker 3: to the reality of it is kind of just like,

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Speaker 3: you almost don't want to accept it.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean?

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Speaker 3: Like for your own sanity, for your own safety, for

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Speaker 3: your own belief in the goodness of humanity and.

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Speaker 1: You kind of don't want to accept it. You know

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Speaker 1: what I mean?

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Speaker 3: It's like, or at least for me, my initial thing

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Speaker 3: is just like, no, that's not, that didn't, couldn't, not didn't,

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Speaker 3: that couldn't happen.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean?

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Speaker 3: It's like, no, it definitely happens. Unfortunately, it happens a lot.

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Speaker 3: And I think that like the seeing it as a

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Speaker 3: narrative kind of thing and just sort of with that,

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Speaker 3: that separation, I think from the, from like reality in quotes,

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Speaker 3: you know, Makes it more palatable and you can, then

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Speaker 3: you can kind of absorb the message of what is

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Speaker 3: coming from it, I think.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great, I never really thought about it

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Speaker 2: in that, that point of it. I think you're right.

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Speaker 2: That there is like a, you can't, you know, like

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Speaker 2: reading the news or watching the news or seeing some,

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Speaker 2: it's just, it's just can be too much sometimes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So Tom's own mother seemed to be a pretty harsh woman.

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Speaker 2: And at least that's how she was portrayed in the film. And,

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Speaker 2: you know, do you think it's possible to understand how

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Speaker 2: someone became a predator without excusing what they did?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yes.

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Speaker 3: I'm lucky that I had a, you know, my early

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Speaker 3: childhood was good.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean? I had good parents. I

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Speaker 1: had a loving family. parents, they cared, they were there

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Speaker 1: for us.

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Speaker 3: And so I can see how people like myself, that

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Speaker 3: leads you in one direction. So I can see how

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Speaker 3: if you would have those chunks missing without those kind

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Speaker 3: of North stars to give you some guidance, I see

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Speaker 3: how people could go into a lot of different directions. And,

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Speaker 3: you know, I don't think it was so much the

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Speaker 3: case in this one, but then you could talk about,

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Speaker 3: you know, somebody's socioeconomic environment, you know, they're just the

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Speaker 3: Where they grow up, you know, just their environment, period.

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Speaker 3: Just all those little aspects could lead somebody to any

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Speaker 3: kind of horrible thing. You know, it's kind of the

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Speaker 3: old saying, you don't know somebody until you walk a

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Speaker 3: mile in their shoes, honestly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So I see how that happens. I don't get it.

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Speaker 1: I don't get it. And I'm glad.

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Speaker 3: That I don't get it. It gives me great comfort

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Speaker 3: at night that I don't get it. But I do.

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Speaker 1: I can understand.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It's like a, I always feel like it's a, and

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Speaker 2: these things are, they're explanations, not excuses.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, of course.

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Speaker 2: Those things are, you know, they're very different things. So

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Speaker 2: he obviously, Tom spent years controlling Tanya without locks or

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Speaker 2: chains or sort of traditional physical restraints. And what, what

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Speaker 2: do you think gave him that kind of psychological power?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it's because she was so well, her

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Speaker 3: age to begin with there's, it's funny. I, I understood

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Speaker 3: a lot about it because one of my kids was

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Speaker 3: doing an activity, was doing a, uh, you know, a

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Speaker 3: thing that kids do. Sorry, I speak very generally about

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Speaker 3: my kids. They're private citizens. They didn't choose to be public.

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Speaker 1: That's me.

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Speaker 3: So they, one of them was doing something, an activity

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Speaker 3: where I had to get, I had to become a

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Speaker 3: mandatory reporter.

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Speaker 1: You know what those are?

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Speaker 3: It's like if you, it's like you, because you're around

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Speaker 3: kids in a volunteer capacity, you have to No certain

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Speaker 3: signs of abuse, certain signs in the leg.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yes.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: So if there's anything that you.

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Speaker 3: See that you get that you're like, hang on, this

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Speaker 3: isn't right, that you can kind of, so that you are,

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Speaker 3: it's on you to.

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Speaker 1: Talk to somebody about that, to try to find help

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Speaker 1: for this kid.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 3: That ultimately turned out to be the case. Anyhow, I

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Speaker 3: had trainings. So she kind of, she was kind of

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Speaker 3: a perfect target. She had no family support. She had

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Speaker 3: no friends. She was quiet.

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Speaker 1: She was isolated.

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Speaker 3: Predators seek those people out because they don't go to somebody.

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Speaker 3: They don't have somebody to go to to tell them

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Speaker 3: what happened. Honestly, they're probably so desperate for the attention

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Speaker 3: that some part of them, maybe not at the time,

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Speaker 3: some part of them maybe might not even realize how

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Speaker 3: awful the thing is in the big picture of what's

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Speaker 3: happening to them.

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Speaker 1: Because it's just like, well, somebody cares. Somebody's paying attention

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Speaker 1: to me.

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Speaker 3: You know, I, at the beginning, certainly the way that

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Speaker 3: it was portrayed in the movie, he was, he really

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Speaker 3: was like, I'm here to help you.

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Speaker 1: I'm your friend.

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Speaker 3: I can help you. You want to go see your mom?

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Speaker 3: I'm going to help you go see your mom. I'm

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Speaker 3: going to do all these things. He did that knowing

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Speaker 3: full well, the mom was going to do what she

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Speaker 3: did and send her running back to him. So I,

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Speaker 3: so yeah, I mean, it's, it's terrible. She was, she

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Speaker 3: and so many like her, I would imagine are just,

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Speaker 3: just like, sitting ducks there's like perfect targets for these

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Speaker 3: monsters right yeah i mean that that need for.

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Speaker 2: Love and connection is cannot be understated as a human being.

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Speaker 1: It's imprinted it's in our it's we are we're a pack.

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Speaker 2: Animal we it's yeah yeah yeah it's it's it's heartbreaking

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Speaker 2: so um In the movie, and I also heard Tanya

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Speaker 2: say this, that it's true that he, Tom seemingly had friends,

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Speaker 2: you know, like coming home drunk one night, telling Tanya

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Speaker 2: that his buddies liked reading the sex journals that he

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Speaker 2: made her keep. Don't you think it's just so hard

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Speaker 2: to believe that he never told anyone about this, that

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Speaker 2: he was keeping her captive? Or did he tell them,

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Speaker 2: do you think, or? And to your point, was it

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Speaker 2: like they just don't pay attention, like didn't ask enough questions? Like,

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Speaker 2: what is the deal?

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Speaker 1: I bet he didn't. I don't know the answer to that.

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Speaker 1: I bet he. But if he was that good.

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Speaker 3: At keeping secrets, I wouldn't be surprised if he waited

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Speaker 3: till she was 18 to start.

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Speaker 1: Telling them at least. So that if there was any

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Speaker 1: kind of if one of them was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. What?

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Speaker 1: She's legal. You know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: So he probably wouldn't tell her he'd been keeping her

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Speaker 3: since she was 14, captive, using a bucket for a toilet.

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Speaker 1: You know, but like I.

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Speaker 3: Find it knowing normal men and their ability to keep

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Speaker 3: their mouth shut about how sometimes, you know, about romantic interludes.

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Speaker 3: I find it hard to believe he'd never said anything.

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Speaker 3: to one of his friends in some capacity, but I

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Speaker 3: wouldn't be surprised if he waited until he knew legally,

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Speaker 3: at least as far as the statutory thing goes, he

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Speaker 3: was clear.

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Speaker 1: Cause I don't think he was stupid. I don't think

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Speaker 1: he's stupid, you know? Right.

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Speaker 2: Well, it certainly coincides with her. If he abducted her

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Speaker 2: at 14 and then he only started letting her leave

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Speaker 2: the room and And the house at four years later,

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Speaker 2: which makes her 18. So everything becomes a little more

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Speaker 2: complicated then.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: A little more complicated, a little while maybe unseemly to

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Speaker 3: the outside world, not illegal.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And that just really shows a, you know, a real understanding.

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Speaker 2: It's just despicable, but like a real calculated kind of

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Speaker 2: behavior that is not just whatever sort of explanation he

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Speaker 2: could give. Oh, I just, I fell in love with her.

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Speaker 2: She was so sweet and pretty, you know, like whatever

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Speaker 2: kind of.

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Speaker 3: It's really, really playing the long game. You know what

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Speaker 3: I mean? It takes a real perverse discipline. It seems

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Speaker 3: like to do that. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Do you think people still underestimate how powerful emotional manipulation

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Speaker 2: can be?

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Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think people do because I think probably anybody can be,

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Speaker 3: I think probably anyone, not to that extent, perhaps, but

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Speaker 3: I think anybody can probably be emotionally manipulated a little bit.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'm thinking about how often my, I've been

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Speaker 3: emotionally manipulated by my children in a far more innocent manner.

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Speaker 3: But like, I think that the, I think that that's

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Speaker 3: something that is incredibly powerful and that's something that people

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Speaker 3: do and can do.

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Speaker 1: And, and unfortunately probably will always do.

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Speaker 2: And there's also, you know, this is a part of

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Speaker 2: it that I can, I just like, I really can't

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Speaker 2: wrap my head around it. I'm utterly perplexed by the

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Speaker 2: woman who was his friend, Judy Sokol, who, and they,

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Speaker 2: they do a great job in the film with this

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Speaker 2: of even sort of confusing the audience of like, well,

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Speaker 2: wait a second, what's going on here? Who is this woman?

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Speaker 2: She's allowing this to happen. And so, she did. I can't,

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Speaker 2: I can't. So she was ultimately charged with a minor

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Speaker 2: accomplice offenses and I think was sentenced to six to

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Speaker 2: 23 months in jail. Do you, do you know any

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Speaker 2: more about that relationship?

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Speaker 3: No, I, everything that we, the, everything that kind of,

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Speaker 3: there was nothing we found about it and everything that

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Speaker 3: we did for the movie was just, I, it was

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Speaker 3: just supplied from my imagination pretty much. Uh, I just

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Speaker 3: kind of assumed he had had some sort of a

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Speaker 3: relationship with her previously, and she was still in love

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Speaker 3: with him, or wrapped up in the mind tricks he

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Speaker 3: could play, and she thought she was helping him out.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: Which, I mean, how many people have been led astray

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Speaker 3: thinking they were helping somebody out? I think it's probably

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Speaker 3: somewhere in that world for her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And again, whatever she needed, we talked about this with Jordan.

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Speaker 2: She was so articulate in saying, you know, when someone's

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Speaker 2: being groomed, that it's so specific to each person because

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Speaker 2: they're essentially finding what that person needs and it isn't

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Speaker 2: one general thing. And so, you know, for her, there

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Speaker 2: was probably a part of that too. He was serving

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Speaker 2: something for her and then didn't want to let that go.

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Speaker 2: And so then you find yourself like, okay, I'll keep,

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Speaker 2: if I, I help him, he'll come back to me.

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Speaker 2: Or if I, you know, you can sort of rationalize,

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Speaker 2: I suppose.

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Speaker 3: That was sort of where I went with it when

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Speaker 3: I was doing homework thinking about her and my.

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Speaker 1: Relationship with her and how I get her to.

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Speaker 3: Do these things and why I would think to take

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Speaker 3: Tanya there in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: Was there anything, and this is very funny in my

341
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Speaker 2: notes here, I just have, was there anything, and then

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00:19:07,910 --> 00:19:12,070
Speaker 2: in big parentheses and capitals, or everything about Tom that

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Speaker 2: you found genuinely difficult to understand, even after spending so

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Speaker 2: much time with this character?

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Speaker 1: I mean, me.

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Speaker 3: As a person? Yeah, I don't get any of it.

347
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Speaker 3: I don't get any of it. I don't get the, like, man...

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Speaker 3: These guys with the young girl, I just I can't

349
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Speaker 3: I can't wrap my head around it. I just I

350
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Speaker 3: don't I just don't understand where that comes from in

351
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Speaker 3: any way.

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Speaker 1: Shape or form as a human.

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Speaker 3: Now, as an actor, that's your job is to figure

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Speaker 3: out what that is, because this is. a human being

355
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Speaker 3: like for for as terrible a one as he is

356
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Speaker 3: this is a human being and if there's not something

357
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Speaker 3: there then it's a monster's not in this setting, a

358
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Speaker 3: monster isn't scary.

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Speaker 1: It's not believable.

360
00:20:07,930 --> 00:20:10,250
Speaker 3: It's like, nobody's got, it's not going to make anybody

361
00:20:10,350 --> 00:20:13,929
Speaker 3: think maybe somebody might be like, Oh, that's scary. Or

362
00:20:13,970 --> 00:20:16,669
Speaker 3: that's sick, but they're not going to think about anything

363
00:20:16,730 --> 00:20:19,450
Speaker 3: or like, think about how it could be happening somewhere nearby.

364
00:20:19,470 --> 00:20:21,770
Speaker 3: Cause it's like, I don't know anybody like that. That's absurd.

365
00:20:21,790 --> 00:20:27,600
Speaker 3: Nobody's like that. But I, so I had to kind of,

366
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Speaker 3: you know, figure out what it is that he'd wanted it.

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00:20:32,510 --> 00:20:35,910
Speaker 3: in a very human, from a very human place that

368
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Speaker 3: made him do all these things. And then when I

369
00:20:40,090 --> 00:20:42,390
Speaker 3: figured that out, then I could understand him from that

370
00:20:42,780 --> 00:20:46,180
Speaker 3: point of view as a, as just me today talking

371
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Speaker 3: to you, I.

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Speaker 1: Don't get him even a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Do you think that this whole case challenges the

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Speaker 2: way people define captivity?

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Speaker 1: Oh, I see. She wasn't chained to the wall, so

376
00:21:01,619 --> 00:21:04,939
Speaker 1: she wasn't captive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure.

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00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:09,360
Speaker 3: I mean, prisons are of many different makings, right? They're

378
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,200
Speaker 3: not always just chained to the wall. Some people's prisons

379
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:18,370
Speaker 3: is between their ears. I think he had her so scared.

380
00:21:18,390 --> 00:21:22,270
Speaker 3: I think he probably convinced her that she would get

381
00:21:22,330 --> 00:21:25,449
Speaker 3: in trouble. If anybody ever found out, she would go

382
00:21:25,490 --> 00:21:28,170
Speaker 3: to jail. If anybody found out you're not going to school,

383
00:21:28,210 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 3: what are you doing? You're living with me. Why did

384
00:21:30,619 --> 00:21:32,910
Speaker 3: you come and live with me? Like, yeah, I could

385
00:21:32,990 --> 00:21:36,260
Speaker 3: see how he probably spent, turned the entire thing on

386
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,899
Speaker 3: its head into making her think it was her idea.

387
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,940
Speaker 3: And she's only here because she needed somewhere to go.

388
00:21:43,100 --> 00:21:45,640
Speaker 3: And aren't I a good guy who let you come

389
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,650
Speaker 3: and live here? So I think in that, yes, sorry,

390
00:21:49,690 --> 00:21:52,790
Speaker 3: I didn't quite understand the initial wording, but yeah, totally.

391
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Speaker 1: I think it should. It should at least broaden the

392
00:21:57,510 --> 00:21:59,369
Speaker 1: definition of it for people, yeah.

393
00:21:59,869 --> 00:22:03,689
Speaker 2: Yeah. What do you, after spending so much time with

394
00:22:03,730 --> 00:22:08,270
Speaker 2: this story, what do you find yourself, or what did

395
00:22:08,310 --> 00:22:13,210
Speaker 2: you find yourself thinking about the most once filming was over?

396
00:22:13,970 --> 00:22:14,689
Speaker 2: What stuck with you?

397
00:22:15,869 --> 00:22:18,389
Speaker 3: Probably just the reality of that room. We had a

398
00:22:18,450 --> 00:22:25,090
Speaker 3: great set that was supposed to be.

399
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:32,480
Speaker 1: Tom and Tanya's room. And the set deck did a

400
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,859
Speaker 1: great job. The room was great.

401
00:22:35,900 --> 00:22:40,220
Speaker 3: It really felt like a room of some man in

402
00:22:40,260 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 3: arrested development.

403
00:22:41,869 --> 00:22:43,070
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Yeah.

404
00:22:43,210 --> 00:22:46,969
Speaker 2: Yes. They were like, like hockey posters and yeah.

405
00:22:47,170 --> 00:22:51,160
Speaker 3: And like, and all that kind of stuff everywhere. And I,

406
00:22:52,260 --> 00:22:54,659
Speaker 3: and that was very informative when I saw that. And

407
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,219
Speaker 3: when I talked to the director about that, I was like, Oh, okay.

408
00:22:57,300 --> 00:22:57,580
Speaker 1: All right.

409
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 3: So he's, he probably thinks he's living his high school

410
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:02,510
Speaker 3: romance here.

411
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:03,660
Speaker 1: He's probably like.

412
00:23:03,770 --> 00:23:06,150
Speaker 3: This is probably his idea of what a perfect high

413
00:23:06,190 --> 00:23:09,050
Speaker 3: school romance looks like. And what wouldn't you do to

414
00:23:09,130 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 3: keep that in place? so the feeling of that room,

415
00:23:13,580 --> 00:23:15,340
Speaker 3: I can bring it up in my mind right now.

416
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 3: And my back is going up, you know, like I can,

417
00:23:17,780 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 3: I can, I think that is probably what held on

418
00:23:21,140 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 3: to what I've, what I held on to because it

419
00:23:24,380 --> 00:23:28,570
Speaker 3: was just sort of, it was just a good encapsulation

420
00:23:28,810 --> 00:23:32,409
Speaker 3: of sort of just him in the whole scenario, you know,

421
00:23:32,430 --> 00:23:35,230
Speaker 3: cause that's just where everything happened. And there's so little,

422
00:23:35,470 --> 00:23:37,650
Speaker 3: so few things you can think of as.

423
00:23:37,590 --> 00:23:39,100
Speaker 1: Like, one place.

424
00:23:39,700 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 3: It's like, it's like an entire life happened in this

425
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 3: 10 by 10, 12 by 12 room, you know?

426
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,609
Speaker 1: So that's really what, what, what hung around.

427
00:23:49,630 --> 00:23:54,050
Speaker 2: I bet. I mean, it just, right. And just thinking

428
00:23:54,090 --> 00:23:56,030
Speaker 2: about that, just being in that space in and of

429
00:23:56,090 --> 00:23:59,770
Speaker 2: itself is unimaginable for all of those years, but then

430
00:24:00,750 --> 00:24:03,690
Speaker 2: to just have the abuse on top of it, it's

431
00:24:03,730 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 2: just a, it's, it's, it's really, it's, I mean, I

432
00:24:08,580 --> 00:24:14,420
Speaker 2: talk about a lot of upsetting content on this podcast.

433
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,110
Speaker 1: Yeah, you must. You must. I was listening to a couple,

434
00:24:17,140 --> 00:24:17,970
Speaker 1: and I was like, whoa.

435
00:24:18,490 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 2: It is this. There are a few that sort of,

436
00:24:22,750 --> 00:24:25,850
Speaker 2: and maybe it's because it feels closer to home in

437
00:24:25,869 --> 00:24:30,869
Speaker 2: some way. I have a 14-year-old daughter, so maybe that's.

438
00:24:30,350 --> 00:24:33,429
Speaker 1: Certainly a part of it. How could it not?

439
00:24:34,210 --> 00:24:38,909
Speaker 2: But it's like, it's just... Yeah.

440
00:24:39,070 --> 00:24:43,430
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was listening to the podcast with Lou, Diamond Phillips,

441
00:24:43,530 --> 00:24:44,050
Speaker 3: the other day.

442
00:24:44,090 --> 00:24:46,770
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the other one that really I was like,

443
00:24:47,850 --> 00:24:49,530
Speaker 2: this is messing with my sleep.

444
00:24:49,810 --> 00:24:56,450
Speaker 3: But that almost seems like a serial killer of that notoriety,

445
00:24:56,630 --> 00:25:01,619
Speaker 3: I guess is the word, infamy. Sometimes somebody like that

446
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,100
Speaker 3: or Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer, it almost is like,

447
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,930
Speaker 3: so wild that you're like, that almost doesn't feel real.

448
00:25:11,150 --> 00:25:11,710
Speaker 1: You know what I mean?

449
00:25:11,990 --> 00:25:16,310
Speaker 3: That it is real, obviously, but it almost doesn't feel real. This, however, though,

450
00:25:16,970 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 3: it's just like, Jesus, that could be literally happening across the.

451
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 2: Yes.

452
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:21,700
Speaker 3: Yes.

453
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 1: You know what I mean?

454
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:27,300
Speaker 3: You would, you, you know, I, I, Because nobody knows,

455
00:25:27,619 --> 00:25:29,850
Speaker 3: as opposed to those serial killers where it's like, here's

456
00:25:29,890 --> 00:25:30,690
Speaker 3: another sign of them.

457
00:25:30,790 --> 00:25:32,469
Speaker 1: Here's a sign of them. You don't know who they are,

458
00:25:32,490 --> 00:25:33,750
Speaker 1: but you know that that was them.

459
00:25:33,770 --> 00:25:36,470
Speaker 3: That was them again. They were in this place. They

460
00:25:36,490 --> 00:25:40,650
Speaker 3: were in that place. But this, you know, with Tanya, like,

461
00:25:41,190 --> 00:25:43,590
Speaker 3: that could be anywhere. That could be anywhere.

462
00:25:43,770 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: And we don't know. You don't know what happens behind

463
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:47,220
Speaker 1: closed doors.

464
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,899
Speaker 3: Yeah. That's what's really so specifically unsettling about this one

465
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 3: for me. Yeah.

466
00:25:54,500 --> 00:25:54,660
Speaker 1: Yeah.

467
00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:00,020
Speaker 2: Well, you do, again, these words, beautiful work.

468
00:26:01,220 --> 00:26:02,420
Speaker 1: Thank you.

469
00:26:03,020 --> 00:26:06,090
Speaker 2: You really do. And again, I feel like these things are,

470
00:26:06,850 --> 00:26:10,850
Speaker 2: you know, we talk about them and make these stories

471
00:26:11,010 --> 00:26:18,090
Speaker 2: because it's a part of humanity undeniably. And if we don't,

472
00:26:18,130 --> 00:26:21,310
Speaker 2: if we aren't capable of talking about the hows and

473
00:26:21,330 --> 00:26:24,580
Speaker 2: the whys of these things, and helping us to have

474
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 2: a deeper understanding. I just don't know how we can,

475
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:29,220
Speaker 2: you know, avoid them.

476
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: Can't, I mean, it would be impossible. Yeah. People wouldn't

477
00:26:33,260 --> 00:26:35,790
Speaker 1: even know about it, you know?

478
00:26:36,550 --> 00:26:39,330
Speaker 3: Yeah. Because they, because like, especially now with the news cycle,

479
00:26:39,369 --> 00:26:41,810
Speaker 3: the last 20 minutes, you know, you're just.

480
00:26:41,750 --> 00:26:43,350
Speaker 1: Onto the next thing. Right.

481
00:26:43,790 --> 00:26:46,230
Speaker 2: Well, Robert, you're, this has been so lovely. It's a,

482
00:26:46,350 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 2: it's such a pleasure to meet you and thank you

483
00:26:48,619 --> 00:26:49,900
Speaker 2: so much for talking with me.

484
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,580
Speaker 1: My pleasure. Thanks for talking. That was great. Thank you.

485
00:26:53,030 --> 00:26:57,130
Speaker 2: The Girl Locked Upstairs, the Tanya Cash story is streaming online.

486
00:26:57,369 --> 00:27:01,990
Speaker 2: It's very powerful, and I highly recommend people watch it.

487
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:03,719
Speaker 2: So thank you, Robert.

488
00:27:03,740 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: Thank you.