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Speaker 1: Pushkin Hi everyone. Instead of a regular episode today, I'm

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Speaker 1: really excited to share an episode from another podcast I admire.

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Speaker 1: It's called Design Matters with Debbie Millman. Each week, Debbie

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Speaker 1: sits down with an exceptionally creative person to explore how

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Speaker 1: they designed the arc of their lives. And all of

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Speaker 1: the interviews you'll get this personal, intimate look at how

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Speaker 1: these people have built their art from their own personal

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Speaker 1: experience and how their creativity hasn't turned shape who they

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Speaker 1: are as people. They're deeply intimate portraits and I think

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Speaker 1: you'll enjoy it. In this preview, you'll hear Debbie in

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Speaker 1: conversation with Ashley c Ford, who discusses her memoir Somebody's Daughter,

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Speaker 1: capturing a complex childhood shaped by family, secrets and resilience.

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Speaker 1: To hear more, including a new episode with Abby Jacobson,

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Speaker 1: find and follow Design Matters with Debbie Millman wherever you're

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Speaker 1: listening to us. In twenty seventeen, Ashley c Ford published

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Speaker 1: an essay with the title my father spent thirty years

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Speaker 1: in Prison Now He's Out. Her father had gone to

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Speaker 1: prison when she was only a few months old, and

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Speaker 1: the essay describes how they got to know each other again.

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Speaker 1: The essay was the seed of the book she would

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Speaker 1: eventually write. Earlier this year, Ashley published her memoir called

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Speaker 1: Somebody's Daughter. It is about family secrets that shape her life,

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Speaker 1: but it's also a beautiful book about hope and resilience.

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Speaker 1: Ashley joins me today from Fort Wayne, Indiana to talk

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Speaker 1: in depth about this remarkable book. Ashley sefd Welcome to

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Speaker 1: Design Matters. Thank you so much for having me Debby.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to be here. Years of listening to

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Speaker 1: this podcast and years of hoping you'd be on it.

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Speaker 1: For those that might not know, Ashley has a very,

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Speaker 1: very very significant place in my life as she is

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Speaker 1: the person that ultimately introduced me to my wife. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: just a little disclosure before we get started. One of

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Speaker 1: the things that makes me happiest. That's one of the

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Speaker 1: best things I've ever done in my life. Well, thank you,

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Speaker 1: Oh you definitely changed my life. Now I have goose

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Speaker 1: bumps before we've even started. So Ashley, before we really

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Speaker 1: get into the meat of the interview, I found something

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Speaker 1: out about you that I was really surprised about. I

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Speaker 1: understand that you're quite the yacht rock enthusiast, Oh, yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: first of all, I didn't even know what rock yacht meant,

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Speaker 1: and I had to ask rock Sanne, my wife about it.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, what's a yak rock enthusiast? I couldn't even

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Speaker 1: say it. So first for my listeners that also might

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Speaker 1: not know, can you describe what ya rock actually is?

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Speaker 1: And what are some of your go to too? This

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Speaker 1: is an age old question, Debbie, what actually is yacht rock?

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Speaker 1: I have never been able to come up with a

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Speaker 1: definition that really makes sense. It's more so that I'm

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Speaker 1: just like throwing out artist and I'm like, that's yat rock.

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Speaker 1: That's yat rock. So Kenny Loggins to me is the

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Speaker 1: king of yacht rock, also the Sultan of soundtracks. And

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Speaker 1: like Christopher Cross, Okay, would you know Christopher saying YEA

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Speaker 1: takes me away? Always heard it could be Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: was not really, but that was my jam, you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean? That's yat rock. Robert Duprie, like even

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Speaker 1: James Ingram is like the rare token black dude of

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Speaker 1: yacht rock. It is a very smooth, like somewhere between

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Speaker 1: rock and pop and R and B. I mean, you've

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Speaker 1: got strong melodies, you know, but it's usually being sung

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Speaker 1: by white dudes with full beards and Hawaiian T shirts

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Speaker 1: is usually what's going on there, and I love it.

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Speaker 1: I think it comes from the fact that I grew

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Speaker 1: up in a time where lots of people around me

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Speaker 1: could afford things like CDs and you know, stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: but I couldn't, really, and so I listened to the radio.

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Speaker 1: And if you were a kid in the early two

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Speaker 1: thousands who listened to the radio a lot, your best bet,

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Speaker 1: at least for me to be able to hear things

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Speaker 1: that weren't distracting. But we're soothing with soft rock radio.

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Speaker 1: And right here in Fort Wayne ninety seven point three,

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Speaker 1: soft rock was my station and I would just listen

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Speaker 1: to it hours and it's just a ton of yacht rock.

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Speaker 1: So did you make up the term yacht rock? No?

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Speaker 1: I absolutely did not. Yacht Rock wasn't even a term

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Speaker 1: that I could recognize until I was in college, and

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Speaker 1: it was towards the end of college actually that I

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Speaker 1: saw that there was this series of videos on YouTube

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Speaker 1: that was called the History of yacht Rock, and I

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Speaker 1: was like, what is this? And it was essentially a

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Speaker 1: I want to say, like an improv group or something

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Speaker 1: like that, except they had made these skits that were

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Speaker 1: about like, how did yacht rock become a thing? And

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Speaker 1: they defined yacht rock by these artists and by the

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Speaker 1: smoothness of it and stuff like that, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: this is what I've been into, this is what I

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Speaker 1: like yacht rock, and that feeling has just never gone away.

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Speaker 1: I love it to this day. Most of the records

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Speaker 1: I own or yacht rock, it's just it's my favorite.

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Speaker 1: Who knew you could listen into design matters and get

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Speaker 1: a pretty substantial history of Ashley s Ford. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: This is like a whole new genre for me. Today.

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Speaker 1: I really want to talk about your extraordinary book, Somebody's Daughter,

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Speaker 1: which debuted on the New York Times bestseller list this

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Speaker 1: year and stayed there for quite some time. Congratulations. I

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Speaker 1: think it is quite a feat. Your memoir follows the

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Speaker 1: arc of your early life, so I really wanted to

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Speaker 1: just dig right in. Great when you were four years old,

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Speaker 1: you went to live with your grandmother and great grandmother

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Speaker 1: on a little farm in Columbia, Missouri, and you've said

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Speaker 1: that this was the first place you felt like your

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Speaker 1: imagination had no bounds. What kinds of things were you

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Speaker 1: doing back then, Oh so many things. I had a

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Speaker 1: steady routine for the first time in my life, which

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Speaker 1: I found very soothing. Pretty much knew what was going

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Speaker 1: to happen any day of the week. I knew I

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Speaker 1: had to go to school. I knew that after school

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Speaker 1: I had to go to an aftercare. I knew that

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Speaker 1: my grandma would pick me up from after care and

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Speaker 1: that we would go home. I knew on the weekends

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Speaker 1: we would go to the mall and we would see

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Speaker 1: a movie. I knew that there would always be dinner

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Speaker 1: and breakfast at a certain time. It was just very

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Speaker 1: soothing for me to have everything happen when it was

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Speaker 1: quote unquote supposed to happen. On top of that, you know,

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Speaker 1: it being just me and my grandma, there was obviously

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Speaker 1: a lot of attention for me. My grandma would read

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Speaker 1: books to me and just sit with me and talk

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Speaker 1: with me. My grandma taught me how to sew by hand.

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Speaker 1: She would give me little scraps of fabric and I

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Speaker 1: would learn how to thread my needle and so close

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Speaker 1: for my little dolls and things like that. Just being

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Speaker 1: able to go outside, especially on the weekends, whenever I wanted,

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Speaker 1: and just be around, and the adults were in the house,

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Speaker 1: and I was just out there doing whatever, and that

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Speaker 1: felt so powerful. I felt powerful when I was on

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Speaker 1: my own, my imagination, my brain. What I could see

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Speaker 1: when I closed my eyes, what I could make myself

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Speaker 1: see made me feel like a powerful person. And I

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Speaker 1: loved feeling that power. I loved feeling in control of myself.

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Speaker 1: I loved having thoughts and stories that were just mine

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Speaker 1: that I didn't have to share with anybody. It made

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Speaker 1: me feel, I think, like a person. Like that's when

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Speaker 1: I started being like, Oh, I'm a person. I'm a

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Speaker 1: human all by myself. You know, four years old is

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Speaker 1: around the time we start to actually remember things. It

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Speaker 1: was probably quite good for you that you had that experience,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, to be able to rely on given the

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Speaker 1: subsequent events of your life. I know you told your

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Speaker 1: mother used to entertain your grandmother with your stories. Do

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Speaker 1: you remember any of the stories you told her? Oh? Man,

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Speaker 1: they were usually stories from the books I read that

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Speaker 1: I would then turn around and make them about me.

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Speaker 1: So she also taught you to read, right, she didn't

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Speaker 1: she teach you to read it? Fine, She taught me

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Speaker 1: to read, and she very quickly found out that I

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Speaker 1: had a very what we caught a weird memory in

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Speaker 1: that my grandma thought I could read before I actually could,

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Speaker 1: because I could just memorize the words of the story.

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Speaker 1: And so she would turn the page and I would

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Speaker 1: start saying, you know, what was happening on the page,

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Speaker 1: almost exactly like with the words, and she was like,

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Speaker 1: can she read? And it was like, no, I couldn't read.

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Speaker 1: I just remembered everything. For a long time, I had

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Speaker 1: memorized quite a few of the first passages from the

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Speaker 1: Book of Genesis in the Bible, and my grandma would

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Speaker 1: introduce me to her friends and then be like watch this, Oh,

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Speaker 1: tell her about tell her about the Bible. And I

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Speaker 1: would just stand there like a recording and start saying

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Speaker 1: passages verbatim from the Bible. And these old ladies would

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Speaker 1: be like, oh my god. You know, they would be

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Speaker 1: so having, so excited that I could do that, and

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Speaker 1: so it made me want to do it more. And

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Speaker 1: that's just something that you know, continued throughout my life.

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Speaker 1: I love memorizing things. Was this when you thought that

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Speaker 1: Billy Ray Cirius was Jesus? Yeah, for sure. I had

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Speaker 1: this massive crush on Billy Ray Cyrus because Achy Breaky

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Speaker 1: Heart had just come out and it was everywhere, and

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Speaker 1: he was on the TV, like you could see him

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Speaker 1: perform at award shows. My grandma is also a huge

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Speaker 1: fan of celebrity culture and Hollywood and tell rage, she

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Speaker 1: really did, like she really did. And so we watched

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Speaker 1: all the awards shows every year. We watched all of them,

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Speaker 1: the Oscars, the Grammy's everything. She wanted to watch all

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Speaker 1: of it. And Billy ray Ciris was performing Akey Breaky

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Speaker 1: Heart and he had that mullet, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: that's a man. Yeah, that's probably what Jesus was like.

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Speaker 1: And I totally thought that was true, that Jesus would

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Speaker 1: have looked like Billy ray Cyrus. I want to go

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Speaker 1: back in time just a little bit, given that at

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Speaker 1: this point you're only four or five, you're actually even younger,

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Speaker 1: a round a year old if that when your father

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Speaker 1: went to prison. And I read that as you were

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Speaker 1: growing up, you watched a lot of Westerns with your

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Speaker 1: grandmother and then would dream of your dad, who would

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Speaker 1: appear in your dreams riding a horse and wearing a

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Speaker 1: cowboy hat. What is your memory of first actual meeting him?

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Speaker 1: My memory of first actually meeting him happened when I

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Speaker 1: was around seven or eight. My uncle Clarence, my dad's brother,

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Speaker 1: reached out to my mom and said, hey, I would

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Speaker 1: really love to take the kids to see their dad,

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Speaker 1: and my mom was very much like, yes, yes, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: because my mom never wanted to keep us away from

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Speaker 1: our dad. My mom just didn't have the resources, the time,

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Speaker 1: or even really like the planning ability to be able

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Speaker 1: to get us there, so she was happy for them

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Speaker 1: to take us. And I don't remember a whole lot

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Speaker 1: about the car trip or getting there. I just remember

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Speaker 1: that gate opening. That like that gate where they put

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Speaker 1: you in and they close it behind you and then

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Speaker 1: they wait to open the one in front of you.

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Speaker 1: In the visit Citatan room, I remember that gate opening,

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Speaker 1: and I remember seeing my dad and I remember going

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Speaker 1: over to him and hugging him, and I remember that

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Speaker 1: like at that time, I was already in a place

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Speaker 1: where I'd been kind of warned about being friendly or

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Speaker 1: in any way physical with men by my mother, and

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Speaker 1: I had all this fear about being friendly and affectionate

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Speaker 1: or physical with men, and I didn't have any of

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Speaker 1: that with my dad. He put his arms around me,

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Speaker 1: and I expected to feel really weird about it, and

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Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't feel weird at all. I just

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Speaker 1: felt loved and I felt warm, and that feeling made

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Speaker 1: me want to not let him go. Like just being

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Speaker 1: there and having this moment that felt so unfamil earlier

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Speaker 1: but so good, just made me want to never ever

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Speaker 1: ever let him go. The way he looked at me

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00:14:18,577 --> 00:14:22,817
Speaker 1: made me want to never leave because I didn't know

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Speaker 1: what it was like at that point to be looked

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Speaker 1: at like that. You know, I didn't know what it

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Speaker 1: was like to walk into a room and have someone

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Speaker 1: light up because you walked into the room. And I

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00:14:38,337 --> 00:14:41,937
Speaker 1: wanted that bad but I didn't even know it was

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00:14:41,977 --> 00:14:44,777
Speaker 1: available to me. I don't think until I saw it

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00:14:45,217 --> 00:14:50,737
Speaker 1: with my dad. Your father wrote you letters regularly from prison,

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Speaker 1: and he told you how beautiful you were and how

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Speaker 1: much he loved you. What did you think of those letters?

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Speaker 1: I thought that for a long time, I would say,

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00:15:03,697 --> 00:15:09,017
Speaker 1: until I was about twelve or thirteen years old. I

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00:15:09,257 --> 00:15:13,577
Speaker 1: felt like those letter were because my dad saw the

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Speaker 1: real me. He saw the real me, and the real

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Speaker 1: me actually was lovable, and the real me actually was beautiful,

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Speaker 1: and the real me didn't make people angry just by existing,

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Speaker 1: and the real me, you know, was all of these good,

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Speaker 1: best things, and I just wished he was there because

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00:15:37,257 --> 00:15:40,257
Speaker 1: if he was there, there would be adult around who

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Speaker 1: could say, actually, Ashley is like this, Actually Ashley is beautiful.

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Speaker 1: Actually Ashley is smart and wonderful and funny. You know.

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Speaker 1: I wanted somebody to stick up for me with other adults.

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Speaker 1: I just wanted somebody who would who would be on

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Speaker 1: my side, is what I really wanted. And those letters

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00:16:00,097 --> 00:16:02,897
Speaker 1: made me truly believe that there was somebody out there

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00:16:03,017 --> 00:16:05,977
Speaker 1: on my side. And I thought if I kept believing

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00:16:06,017 --> 00:16:08,377
Speaker 1: and wanting it bad enough, you know, he would just

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00:16:08,417 --> 00:16:12,777
Speaker 1: show up. You didn't right back frequently, and you've said

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00:16:12,817 --> 00:16:15,377
Speaker 1: that you didn't know how to catch someone up on

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00:16:15,457 --> 00:16:19,617
Speaker 1: your entire life. As a result, you've written about how

247
00:16:20,377 --> 00:16:27,177
Speaker 1: the relationship existed in sparse correspondence and your imaginations. What

248
00:16:27,257 --> 00:16:30,777
Speaker 1: did you think of how he imagined who you were.

249
00:16:34,097 --> 00:16:37,857
Speaker 1: I think there are two things going on, and why

250
00:16:37,897 --> 00:16:39,857
Speaker 1: I didn't write my dad back and what I thought

251
00:16:39,977 --> 00:16:43,017
Speaker 1: was going on in his imagination. At first, I thought

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00:16:43,017 --> 00:16:46,057
Speaker 1: it was, you know, this just inherent thing. This is

253
00:16:46,097 --> 00:16:49,817
Speaker 1: my dad. He I am made from his blood and bones.

254
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Speaker 1: You know what I mean, Like, that's my father, and

255
00:16:53,617 --> 00:16:56,617
Speaker 1: so that's why he can see me, and that's why

256
00:16:56,697 --> 00:17:00,417
Speaker 1: he knows me better than everybody else. Right. And then

257
00:17:01,417 --> 00:17:05,657
Speaker 1: it became but if I write him and I say

258
00:17:05,697 --> 00:17:10,417
Speaker 1: the wrong thing, if I write the wrong thing, if

259
00:17:10,497 --> 00:17:15,097
Speaker 1: I'm not who he expected me to be, What if

260
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Speaker 1: I ruin it? What if who I am and who

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00:17:20,697 --> 00:17:25,177
Speaker 1: he imagines me to be are so different that he

262
00:17:25,257 --> 00:17:28,977
Speaker 1: can't love this version of me. So if I just

263
00:17:29,137 --> 00:17:31,897
Speaker 1: take me out of the equation, if I just take

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00:17:32,657 --> 00:17:36,457
Speaker 1: the person who can't seem to communicate right, can't seem

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00:17:36,457 --> 00:17:38,337
Speaker 1: to get it right, can't seem to do right. If

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00:17:38,337 --> 00:17:40,897
Speaker 1: I just take me out of it, I can keep

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00:17:40,977 --> 00:17:46,257
Speaker 1: getting the love from him. I can keep seeing myself

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00:17:46,897 --> 00:17:50,297
Speaker 1: through his eyes in a certain sense, without having to

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00:17:50,337 --> 00:17:55,737
Speaker 1: see them through you know, my own, which are warped

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00:17:55,817 --> 00:18:01,857
Speaker 1: and marred by insecurity and abuse and all of those things.

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00:18:02,377 --> 00:18:06,977
Speaker 1: It felt dangerous to write back. The stakes felt so

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00:18:07,857 --> 00:18:14,497
Speaker 1: high because this person to me is my connection to

273
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Speaker 1: the good parts of myself. That's all I have. So

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Speaker 1: if I mess up that connection, what do I have

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Speaker 1: in thinking about that? I wonder if you felt so

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Speaker 1: secure in his continuing to write that you didn't have

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00:18:34,297 --> 00:18:37,417
Speaker 1: to write, sort of just to keep up your end

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Speaker 1: of the bargain, which I think is a pretty interesting

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00:18:40,737 --> 00:18:45,097
Speaker 1: way of looking at the dynamic. Oh yeah, for sure,

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00:18:45,377 --> 00:18:47,977
Speaker 1: he kept writing no matter what. Yeah, you know, I

281
00:18:49,457 --> 00:18:55,177
Speaker 1: had never really been pursued. I never believe that I

282
00:18:55,217 --> 00:19:00,657
Speaker 1: could make a mistake or turn away or isolate or

283
00:19:00,697 --> 00:19:05,177
Speaker 1: whatever and have somebody try to come find me and

284
00:19:05,337 --> 00:19:09,017
Speaker 1: figure out what happened to me. I used to think

285
00:19:09,057 --> 00:19:13,657
Speaker 1: if I ran away from home, the only reason anybody

286
00:19:13,737 --> 00:19:17,217
Speaker 1: would look for me is because they were legally obligated

287
00:19:17,257 --> 00:19:20,497
Speaker 1: to do so, not because they wanted to find me,

288
00:19:21,057 --> 00:19:24,017
Speaker 1: and not because they wanted me to actually be part

289
00:19:24,057 --> 00:19:29,137
Speaker 1: of their life or anything. You know. But with my dad,

290
00:19:29,577 --> 00:19:32,537
Speaker 1: he was always in pursuit of my heart. He wanted

291
00:19:32,697 --> 00:19:37,177
Speaker 1: to know me the whole time. He wanted to love

292
00:19:37,257 --> 00:19:42,977
Speaker 1: me the whole time. And I think there was part

293
00:19:43,017 --> 00:19:46,137
Speaker 1: of me that did really want to like stretch that

294
00:19:46,217 --> 00:19:49,417
Speaker 1: out and did want to see like, Okay, well, what

295
00:19:49,457 --> 00:19:51,657
Speaker 1: if I don't rate you back for a year, What

296
00:19:51,737 --> 00:19:54,897
Speaker 1: if I don't rate you back for two years? What

297
00:19:55,017 --> 00:19:57,377
Speaker 1: it like? What then, like, what's it going to take

298
00:19:57,457 --> 00:20:01,017
Speaker 1: for you to give up? And he just never did

299
00:20:03,137 --> 00:20:07,577
Speaker 1: your family was very secretive about why your dad was

300
00:20:07,577 --> 00:20:10,857
Speaker 1: in jail. Did you think he was in jail for

301
00:20:10,857 --> 00:20:14,537
Speaker 1: from murder? I did for a little while because I

302
00:20:14,577 --> 00:20:19,017
Speaker 1: couldn't imagine what else would have put him in jail

303
00:20:19,337 --> 00:20:23,097
Speaker 1: for so long, you know, especially I knew, you know,

304
00:20:23,177 --> 00:20:26,817
Speaker 1: one thing that my family did try to impress upon me,

305
00:20:27,017 --> 00:20:29,377
Speaker 1: and you know, my brother was like, your dad was

306
00:20:29,417 --> 00:20:32,537
Speaker 1: not a guy who was out here, you know, in

307
00:20:32,577 --> 00:20:35,657
Speaker 1: the streets, so to say, like he was not somebody

308
00:20:35,697 --> 00:20:38,777
Speaker 1: who was in and out of jail. He wasn't somebody

309
00:20:38,817 --> 00:20:41,497
Speaker 1: who was in and out of prison. This was his

310
00:20:42,137 --> 00:20:49,017
Speaker 1: first and last offense. And it's terrible, rights, it's terrible.

311
00:20:50,177 --> 00:20:56,017
Speaker 1: But I knew that my dad had done something terrible,

312
00:20:56,257 --> 00:21:00,817
Speaker 1: that he must have done something terrible, but this kind

313
00:21:00,857 --> 00:21:06,337
Speaker 1: of terrible I didn't expect. I mean, like, to me,

314
00:21:06,897 --> 00:21:10,897
Speaker 1: there are so many reasons why a person might get murder,

315
00:21:11,097 --> 00:21:17,817
Speaker 1: and it is not ever excusable to murder, right, but

316
00:21:18,057 --> 00:21:22,537
Speaker 1: things happen all the time, like you know, like I

317
00:21:22,577 --> 00:21:25,497
Speaker 1: just thought, there could have been so many things that happened,

318
00:21:25,537 --> 00:21:28,897
Speaker 1: so many things that went wrong, so many momentary lapses

319
00:21:28,937 --> 00:21:33,897
Speaker 1: and judgment that led to that moment. But what my

320
00:21:33,977 --> 00:21:38,777
Speaker 1: dad actually did. That's not you can't mistakenly do that.

321
00:21:39,817 --> 00:21:44,337
Speaker 1: I can't be you know what I mean, Like, that's intentional. Yeah,

322
00:21:44,377 --> 00:21:48,137
Speaker 1: there's control there, and I think that's what was terrifying

323
00:21:48,177 --> 00:21:51,737
Speaker 1: to them to have to tell us, was that somebody

324
00:21:51,737 --> 00:21:54,777
Speaker 1: had made that kind of choice. Who was that closely

325
00:21:54,817 --> 00:21:58,377
Speaker 1: related to us. Yeah, we'll get to that in a

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00:21:58,377 --> 00:22:00,817
Speaker 1: little bit. I want to talk a little bit more

327
00:22:00,857 --> 00:22:05,657
Speaker 1: about your early relationships over the course of your life,

328
00:22:05,697 --> 00:22:09,537
Speaker 1: your relationship that you've had with your mother has been

329
00:22:09,617 --> 00:22:13,017
Speaker 1: really complicated. You know, this book is as much about

330
00:22:13,057 --> 00:22:16,057
Speaker 1: her as it is about your dad. Yes, you've described

331
00:22:16,177 --> 00:22:20,777
Speaker 1: experience with her when she became unrecognizable to you, and

332
00:22:21,297 --> 00:22:25,017
Speaker 1: you've written about how there was Mama, the loving mother

333
00:22:25,177 --> 00:22:28,737
Speaker 1: we knew before whatever sparked her ire, and then there

334
00:22:28,817 --> 00:22:33,697
Speaker 1: was Mother who showed up in her place. Mother felt separate, somehow,

335
00:22:33,777 --> 00:22:38,857
Speaker 1: apart from our otherwise happy and harmonious existence. She rose

336
00:22:39,097 --> 00:22:44,297
Speaker 1: from somewhere within Mama and did the latter's dirty work. Ashley,

337
00:22:44,377 --> 00:22:51,177
Speaker 1: where did mother's rage come from? As I've gotten older

338
00:22:51,217 --> 00:22:53,577
Speaker 1: and talked to my family more, I know that my

339
00:22:53,657 --> 00:22:59,137
Speaker 1: mom has always had issues with anger, and nobody was

340
00:22:59,177 --> 00:23:03,137
Speaker 1: really surprised by the fact that my mom has issues

341
00:23:03,177 --> 00:23:06,257
Speaker 1: with anger, or that the book mentioned so many of

342
00:23:06,297 --> 00:23:10,177
Speaker 1: my mom's issues with anger, and that was even before

343
00:23:10,737 --> 00:23:13,017
Speaker 1: what happened with my dad. My mom was a very

344
00:23:13,257 --> 00:23:19,017
Speaker 1: angry young woman. She had some terrible like pains in

345
00:23:19,097 --> 00:23:23,777
Speaker 1: her body. And I gotta tell you, knowing my grandmother,

346
00:23:24,977 --> 00:23:31,017
Speaker 1: there's no way she showed very much compassion in those moments.

347
00:23:31,537 --> 00:23:35,977
Speaker 1: She was just not that kind of person. My mom

348
00:23:36,057 --> 00:23:40,497
Speaker 1: would have never seen an example, in my opinion, of

349
00:23:40,537 --> 00:23:46,057
Speaker 1: what to do with fear except turn it into anger immediately.

350
00:23:47,297 --> 00:23:52,377
Speaker 1: And my mother went from being a twenty two year

351
00:23:52,457 --> 00:23:59,777
Speaker 1: old married woman, a mother, to suddenly being a single,

352
00:23:59,977 --> 00:24:07,057
Speaker 1: twenty two year old with two kids under three. Like wow,

353
00:24:07,177 --> 00:24:13,497
Speaker 1: that in Reagan's America. Okay, yeah, so we also have

354
00:24:13,537 --> 00:24:16,257
Speaker 1: to understand it at this time the exact everything that

355
00:24:16,257 --> 00:24:18,857
Speaker 1: had happened to my mom that had been out of

356
00:24:18,857 --> 00:24:21,617
Speaker 1: her control, All of these are circumstances, All of this

357
00:24:21,697 --> 00:24:25,737
Speaker 1: is out of her control. Not only is that true

358
00:24:25,777 --> 00:24:28,497
Speaker 1: that she didn't make the choices that led to this moment,

359
00:24:28,737 --> 00:24:33,457
Speaker 1: it is also true that the country at that time

360
00:24:33,937 --> 00:24:39,897
Speaker 1: was demonizing women who fit the demographic of my mother's

361
00:24:39,937 --> 00:24:45,177
Speaker 1: life at that point, not enough money, no one to help,

362
00:24:46,297 --> 00:24:51,337
Speaker 1: kids needing help and assistance. That was all demonized. Why

363
00:24:51,337 --> 00:24:54,457
Speaker 1: would you need help and assistance? Why can't you just

364
00:24:54,537 --> 00:24:57,857
Speaker 1: do it yourself? Yeah? I understand you had a husband

365
00:24:57,857 --> 00:25:00,857
Speaker 1: and he was working and contributing, and now he's in prison.

366
00:25:01,257 --> 00:25:03,897
Speaker 1: But how is that our problem? That's not our problem,

367
00:25:03,937 --> 00:25:06,217
Speaker 1: that's your problem. So what are you going to do

368
00:25:06,297 --> 00:25:10,497
Speaker 1: about it? And I don't think my mom has ever

369
00:25:11,777 --> 00:25:16,737
Speaker 1: truly recovered from that time in her life. I don't

370
00:25:16,777 --> 00:25:19,617
Speaker 1: know how she would have with no help, you know.

371
00:25:19,737 --> 00:25:23,337
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe some help from her family, but therapy

372
00:25:23,737 --> 00:25:28,977
Speaker 1: absolutely not, absolutely not. And now we look at that

373
00:25:29,017 --> 00:25:34,377
Speaker 1: and we go, that's trauma. Everybody needs to be in therapy, right,

374
00:25:34,697 --> 00:25:38,697
Speaker 1: But back then, nobody was thinking about that. And so

375
00:25:38,777 --> 00:25:41,217
Speaker 1: I believe my mom has a lot of unprocessed anger.

376
00:25:41,977 --> 00:25:45,617
Speaker 1: I think she does not know where to put her

377
00:25:45,657 --> 00:25:49,537
Speaker 1: anger when it comes, and so it feels like it

378
00:25:49,577 --> 00:25:53,897
Speaker 1: belongs everywhere. And I think that she also grew up

379
00:25:53,897 --> 00:25:57,737
Speaker 1: in a time and in a culture where apologizing to

380
00:25:57,777 --> 00:26:02,897
Speaker 1: your children was unheard of, and it was a relinquishing

381
00:26:02,977 --> 00:26:06,897
Speaker 1: of power instead of a strengthening of a bond and

382
00:26:07,217 --> 00:26:11,497
Speaker 1: a relationship. And so because of that and for you

383
00:26:11,537 --> 00:26:15,777
Speaker 1: know other reasons, we just don't have. You know that

384
00:26:15,817 --> 00:26:22,217
Speaker 1: foundation my mother and I. She often beat you, yea,

385
00:26:22,777 --> 00:26:26,617
Speaker 1: when you were young, and the punishments were severe. And

386
00:26:26,697 --> 00:26:31,737
Speaker 1: you've written how when you next did something bad, you

387
00:26:31,857 --> 00:26:36,737
Speaker 1: learn to carry the secrets of your badness silently and alone.

388
00:26:37,497 --> 00:26:40,617
Speaker 1: There would be no more confessions. Whoever wanted to know

389
00:26:40,777 --> 00:26:43,897
Speaker 1: how bad you could be would have to get close

390
00:26:44,017 --> 00:26:49,177
Speaker 1: enough to find out, and nobody tried. Did you at

391
00:26:49,217 --> 00:26:54,257
Speaker 1: that point have an innate sense of badness? I did?

392
00:26:55,297 --> 00:27:02,337
Speaker 1: I did. I could not imagine why this person who

393
00:27:02,457 --> 00:27:06,337
Speaker 1: loved me so much would hurt my body so badly

394
00:27:06,977 --> 00:27:11,977
Speaker 1: if I didn't deserve it, if I wasn't bad, if

395
00:27:12,057 --> 00:27:18,697
Speaker 1: something about me and in me wasn't bad. And I

396
00:27:18,817 --> 00:27:23,977
Speaker 1: knew enough at that time to essentially decide, like, Okay,

397
00:27:24,417 --> 00:27:27,417
Speaker 1: clearly I'm bad, or at least there's some bad in me.

398
00:27:27,697 --> 00:27:32,217
Speaker 1: Something in here is bad, and I now have to

399
00:27:32,257 --> 00:27:37,337
Speaker 1: protect my badness. I have to not let anybody see that.

400
00:27:37,377 --> 00:27:39,177
Speaker 1: Because I'm telling you what, I'm not going to sign

401
00:27:39,257 --> 00:27:44,337
Speaker 1: up for another whooping. I'm not signing up for that

402
00:27:44,497 --> 00:27:49,737
Speaker 1: ever again. And because I didn't trust myself to really understand,

403
00:27:50,257 --> 00:27:53,337
Speaker 1: you know what would get me in trouble, and what

404
00:27:53,377 --> 00:27:55,457
Speaker 1: wouldn't Because I was a child and nobody was really

405
00:27:55,537 --> 00:27:59,777
Speaker 1: explaining that to me. I just thought, Okay, I know

406
00:27:59,857 --> 00:28:04,577
Speaker 1: that good is quiet, and I know that good is

407
00:28:05,177 --> 00:28:08,777
Speaker 1: doing exactly what you're told to do, exactly when you're

408
00:28:08,817 --> 00:28:11,297
Speaker 1: told to do it, and any other part of me,

409
00:28:11,697 --> 00:28:14,177
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna I'm just gonna leave out of the

410
00:28:14,217 --> 00:28:17,017
Speaker 1: equation because I'm not sure whether or not that's gonna

411
00:28:17,097 --> 00:28:22,137
Speaker 1: get me in trouble. And that makes you terrified of

412
00:28:22,337 --> 00:28:26,697
Speaker 1: being a human being. It makes you terrified of having feelings,

413
00:28:26,737 --> 00:28:30,097
Speaker 1: expressing feelings. And I was terrified of all those things,

414
00:28:30,257 --> 00:28:33,217
Speaker 1: and so it's sometimes wild to me. You know, when

415
00:28:33,257 --> 00:28:35,657
Speaker 1: I think about my childhood, I think about growing up,

416
00:28:35,657 --> 00:28:39,857
Speaker 1: I wonder like, what, like did my mom look at

417
00:28:39,857 --> 00:28:42,497
Speaker 1: me and think like, Yeah, this is a totally normal kid.

418
00:28:42,977 --> 00:28:47,577
Speaker 1: This is this is totally how normal kids act. This

419
00:28:47,657 --> 00:28:51,537
Speaker 1: is why I don't understand why so many people out

420
00:28:51,577 --> 00:28:54,097
Speaker 1: in the community seem to really like my kid and

421
00:28:54,137 --> 00:28:57,617
Speaker 1: talk about her bright personality and how much they really

422
00:28:57,697 --> 00:28:59,457
Speaker 1: dig her. And then she comes home and I'm like,

423
00:28:59,497 --> 00:29:03,857
Speaker 1: who is this? You know, but I don't know if

424
00:29:04,057 --> 00:29:07,017
Speaker 1: she didn't have the time or inclination to dig that deep.

425
00:29:08,737 --> 00:29:12,817
Speaker 1: I want to read one of the most powerful paragraphs

426
00:29:12,817 --> 00:29:16,257
Speaker 1: in your book and then ask you about it. You've

427
00:29:16,297 --> 00:29:20,537
Speaker 1: written this, there was no beauty in my badness, and

428
00:29:20,617 --> 00:29:23,777
Speaker 1: there was no hiding my badness from anybody who got

429
00:29:23,817 --> 00:29:28,697
Speaker 1: too close, and then go on to state this, My

430
00:29:28,817 --> 00:29:32,777
Speaker 1: mind was caught somewhere between extreme longing for love and

431
00:29:32,857 --> 00:29:38,617
Speaker 1: tenderness and the fear of being mishandled or misused. Even

432
00:29:38,657 --> 00:29:41,297
Speaker 1: as I was drawn to connect with the people around me,

433
00:29:41,497 --> 00:29:44,897
Speaker 1: I feared them, afraid of how much they might come

434
00:29:44,897 --> 00:29:47,657
Speaker 1: to mean to me and how terribly I would have

435
00:29:47,737 --> 00:29:51,857
Speaker 1: to mourn when they inevitably left me behind. At night,

436
00:29:52,337 --> 00:29:55,657
Speaker 1: I'd sit in bed and say to myself, everyone leaves,

437
00:29:56,017 --> 00:30:00,817
Speaker 1: You'll be okay. Everyone leaves, You'll be okay. I'd say

438
00:30:00,817 --> 00:30:04,137
Speaker 1: it over and over until I could picture them leaving,

439
00:30:04,697 --> 00:30:08,057
Speaker 1: until I could feel the tears on my cheeks. When

440
00:30:08,057 --> 00:30:10,697
Speaker 1: I cried, I thought I could feel some of that

441
00:30:10,817 --> 00:30:16,057
Speaker 1: inevitable pain, sparing my future self. I did not mind

442
00:30:16,177 --> 00:30:20,697
Speaker 1: getting hurt as much as I minded being surprised by

443
00:30:20,737 --> 00:30:27,217
Speaker 1: the pain. I wanted to see it coming. Not only

444
00:30:27,297 --> 00:30:29,537
Speaker 1: is that a remarkable paragraph, it is also just a

445
00:30:29,577 --> 00:30:35,137
Speaker 1: remarkable insight to have about your young self. Did you

446
00:30:35,217 --> 00:30:38,937
Speaker 1: feel that you were intentionally cutting yourself off from people

447
00:30:39,497 --> 00:30:42,937
Speaker 1: to try and control how much pain you were in

448
00:30:43,097 --> 00:30:55,097
Speaker 1: or could be in in your future self? Uh? Yeah, okay, yeah,

449
00:30:55,137 --> 00:30:58,937
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. No, no, no, no, it's I don't apologize

450
00:30:58,937 --> 00:31:02,497
Speaker 1: for making me feel things I like feeling. Okay, it's okay.

451
00:31:06,497 --> 00:31:09,617
Speaker 1: The reason why that makes me so emotional in this moment,

452
00:31:09,657 --> 00:31:15,737
Speaker 1: just so you know, is because I struggle with depression

453
00:31:15,737 --> 00:31:18,897
Speaker 1: and I still struggle with depression, and I'm I'm I'm

454
00:31:18,977 --> 00:31:21,817
Speaker 1: in that place right now, a little bit like that

455
00:31:21,937 --> 00:31:24,817
Speaker 1: sort of a hard, dark place, and it's okay, I'm

456
00:31:24,817 --> 00:31:29,017
Speaker 1: really okay talking about it because I feel better when

457
00:31:29,057 --> 00:31:32,777
Speaker 1: I am not pretending that it's not the case. And

458
00:31:33,457 --> 00:31:40,937
Speaker 1: I wrote that because I felt so alone at that

459
00:31:41,017 --> 00:31:46,337
Speaker 1: time in my life, and I had been taught, either

460
00:31:46,457 --> 00:31:52,537
Speaker 1: verbally or by example, that something was wrong with me,

461
00:31:53,657 --> 00:31:58,657
Speaker 1: and that I was unable to tell when people didn't

462
00:31:58,657 --> 00:32:01,937
Speaker 1: want to be around me anymore or when they wanted

463
00:32:01,977 --> 00:32:05,417
Speaker 1: me to go away. And that was a lie, you know.

464
00:32:05,537 --> 00:32:09,297
Speaker 1: It was something that my mom said to me because

465
00:32:09,337 --> 00:32:13,137
Speaker 1: she wanted me to be home more, and my mom

466
00:32:13,217 --> 00:32:15,777
Speaker 1: was incapable of saying I miss you and I want

467
00:32:15,817 --> 00:32:20,417
Speaker 1: you around more. So, her way of getting what she

468
00:32:20,577 --> 00:32:23,697
Speaker 1: wanted without having to quote relinquish any of her power

469
00:32:24,177 --> 00:32:27,537
Speaker 1: was to make me believe that the people out there

470
00:32:27,617 --> 00:32:30,657
Speaker 1: didn't really like me and didn't really want me around,

471
00:32:30,897 --> 00:32:33,857
Speaker 1: and that she could tell that, but that there was

472
00:32:33,897 --> 00:32:36,617
Speaker 1: something wrong with me, and I couldn't tell that that

473
00:32:36,697 --> 00:32:39,737
Speaker 1: was the case, so people wouldn't invite me over and

474
00:32:39,817 --> 00:32:42,017
Speaker 1: she would say, you know, well, you can't go there today,

475
00:32:42,017 --> 00:32:43,817
Speaker 1: and I would be like, why they invited me over?

476
00:32:43,897 --> 00:32:45,977
Speaker 1: And she would say, you know, they don't really want

477
00:32:46,017 --> 00:32:49,457
Speaker 1: you there. They're inviting you to be polite. Nobody wants

478
00:32:49,497 --> 00:32:51,897
Speaker 1: you at their house that much. Nobody wants you around

479
00:32:51,937 --> 00:32:56,057
Speaker 1: that much. And the reason why that makes me so

480
00:32:56,097 --> 00:32:58,737
Speaker 1: emotional that you read that part and that like I'm

481
00:32:58,737 --> 00:33:01,537
Speaker 1: in this place right now is because I'm realizing that, like, oh,

482
00:33:01,577 --> 00:33:05,217
Speaker 1: that's what I'm struggling with right now. That's the thing

483
00:33:05,297 --> 00:33:09,017
Speaker 1: for me right now, is that I'm having this desire

484
00:33:09,537 --> 00:33:14,457
Speaker 1: to isolate myself from people who love me and like

485
00:33:14,657 --> 00:33:17,697
Speaker 1: me and who want me around because I'm back in

486
00:33:17,737 --> 00:33:20,777
Speaker 1: a place of being afraid that they don't really want

487
00:33:20,777 --> 00:33:23,337
Speaker 1: me there and that they don't really like me, and

488
00:33:23,377 --> 00:33:26,257
Speaker 1: that they're giving me hint to let me know that,

489
00:33:26,337 --> 00:33:28,977
Speaker 1: and I'm just not picking them up because I'm not

490
00:33:29,057 --> 00:33:33,777
Speaker 1: smart enough to pick them up. Well, I can tell you,

491
00:33:33,817 --> 00:33:38,777
Speaker 1: as somebody who knows one of the people that cares

492
00:33:38,817 --> 00:33:42,777
Speaker 1: for you most in the world, very very intimately, and

493
00:33:42,977 --> 00:33:46,657
Speaker 1: a lot of other people that know you well, that

494
00:33:46,777 --> 00:33:51,817
Speaker 1: they love you deeply. It's so odd. I know it's

495
00:33:51,857 --> 00:33:54,097
Speaker 1: hard to take it in and to brave it. But

496
00:33:54,817 --> 00:33:57,337
Speaker 1: as somebody who can give you sort of empirical evidence

497
00:33:57,377 --> 00:34:00,297
Speaker 1: of this, I'm sharing that with you right now. This

498
00:34:00,417 --> 00:34:04,417
Speaker 1: is something that I know in my soul because I

499
00:34:04,497 --> 00:34:07,697
Speaker 1: hear it from others without you being around, without you

500
00:34:08,137 --> 00:34:12,057
Speaker 1: even knowing we're talking about you. It's it's odd because

501
00:34:12,137 --> 00:34:15,577
Speaker 1: I know that too. I do in my brain. It

502
00:34:15,617 --> 00:34:18,737
Speaker 1: almost doesn't help, but yes, I get that, and it's

503
00:34:18,937 --> 00:34:20,977
Speaker 1: you just don't believe it, and I hear it's so

504
00:34:21,097 --> 00:34:27,457
Speaker 1: hard sometimes to believe it, and you know, just yes.

505
00:34:27,737 --> 00:34:33,697
Speaker 1: I started back then trying to protect my future self

506
00:34:33,697 --> 00:34:39,097
Speaker 1: from the inevitable disappointment of love and loss, which turns

507
00:34:39,137 --> 00:34:42,737
Speaker 1: out you will never get away from. There's no way

508
00:34:43,377 --> 00:34:47,217
Speaker 1: to get away from it. There's no way to save

509
00:34:47,257 --> 00:34:51,297
Speaker 1: yourself somehow from the pain of it. The only thing

510
00:34:51,417 --> 00:34:54,217
Speaker 1: you can do, and I've know this now, is to

511
00:34:54,537 --> 00:34:57,417
Speaker 1: feel it, just like I'm doing now. Just feel it

512
00:34:58,057 --> 00:35:02,297
Speaker 1: and let yourself feel it, process it, walk through it,

513
00:35:02,817 --> 00:35:06,937
Speaker 1: work through it to the other end. And now that

514
00:35:07,017 --> 00:35:11,417
Speaker 1: I understand that fully, I'm a lot better about sharing

515
00:35:11,697 --> 00:35:15,617
Speaker 1: with people I love, making myself vulnerable with people who

516
00:35:15,737 --> 00:35:18,097
Speaker 1: love me and have shown me that love and who

517
00:35:18,177 --> 00:35:20,977
Speaker 1: care for me. I try to do that more often,

518
00:35:21,417 --> 00:35:25,337
Speaker 1: but it is always a struggle because what I taught

519
00:35:25,377 --> 00:35:28,497
Speaker 1: myself to do at that time is to just assume

520
00:35:29,497 --> 00:35:35,417
Speaker 1: that assume that I am an inconvenience, assume that I

521
00:35:35,457 --> 00:35:40,337
Speaker 1: am a burden. And it is really hard when you

522
00:35:40,457 --> 00:35:44,057
Speaker 1: practice that kind of thinking for years and years and years.

523
00:35:45,217 --> 00:35:48,697
Speaker 1: When you decide to start practicing something different, it's like, yeah,

524
00:35:48,737 --> 00:35:51,057
Speaker 1: that's you can tell that's the better choice, that's the

525
00:35:51,137 --> 00:35:54,857
Speaker 1: better option. But your brain and your body and your

526
00:35:54,897 --> 00:35:57,457
Speaker 1: mind are still like, yeah, but we remember this way.

527
00:35:57,537 --> 00:36:02,257
Speaker 1: This way is easier, we practice this way longer, so yeah,

528
00:36:02,537 --> 00:36:05,937
Speaker 1: still working on it. Oh yeah. I was reading some

529
00:36:06,017 --> 00:36:08,737
Speaker 1: of my old journals from seventh grade, eighth grade, ninth

530
00:36:08,777 --> 00:36:15,617
Speaker 1: grade and came upon several instances where I wrote Daddy

531
00:36:15,657 --> 00:36:17,937
Speaker 1: called me a burden today and I don't know what

532
00:36:17,977 --> 00:36:21,337
Speaker 1: to do, and several times like just just writing it

533
00:36:21,377 --> 00:36:22,937
Speaker 1: like it's a normal, like Daddy took me to the

534
00:36:22,937 --> 00:36:24,817
Speaker 1: park today and Daddy said I was a burden today,

535
00:36:25,257 --> 00:36:29,177
Speaker 1: And you know, using that word is something that I've

536
00:36:29,937 --> 00:36:35,177
Speaker 1: also come very very close to trying to obliterate. But

537
00:36:35,817 --> 00:36:38,217
Speaker 1: you know, unless you go through it, you can't obliterate it.

538
00:36:38,217 --> 00:36:41,817
Speaker 1: It's hard. Yeah, one thing that I was struck by

539
00:36:42,177 --> 00:36:45,257
Speaker 1: because I did this too, and it's such an unusual thing.

540
00:36:45,297 --> 00:36:48,777
Speaker 1: You stayed in school, you stayed after school as long

541
00:36:48,857 --> 00:36:51,977
Speaker 1: as possible to avoid going home. First, you did it

542
00:36:52,017 --> 00:36:55,137
Speaker 1: so you're sort of very casually, no one knew that

543
00:36:55,177 --> 00:36:57,537
Speaker 1: you were just sort of going from teacher to teacher

544
00:36:57,777 --> 00:37:00,297
Speaker 1: or classroom to classroom. And then you started to be

545
00:37:00,377 --> 00:37:02,217
Speaker 1: part of the clubs. And I did that too. I

546
00:37:02,257 --> 00:37:04,817
Speaker 1: was part of like every club you could possibly imagine

547
00:37:04,937 --> 00:37:07,577
Speaker 1: after school to avoid going home for as long as possible.

548
00:37:08,297 --> 00:37:10,977
Speaker 1: And I wonder, I can't help but wonder why our

549
00:37:10,977 --> 00:37:14,657
Speaker 1: lives would have been like without that solace in support,

550
00:37:14,737 --> 00:37:16,217
Speaker 1: Like I don't think I would have made it if

551
00:37:16,257 --> 00:37:18,577
Speaker 1: I hadn't been in the school plays and in mathletes

552
00:37:18,657 --> 00:37:22,977
Speaker 1: and in this writing for the school newspaper. And I

553
00:37:23,057 --> 00:37:27,577
Speaker 1: was the manager of the boys varsity basketball team, Ashley, Yeah,

554
00:37:27,617 --> 00:37:29,617
Speaker 1: I was the manager of the boys tennis team. Oh

555
00:37:29,657 --> 00:37:32,177
Speaker 1: my god, Yeah, my god. I don't play tennis. I

556
00:37:32,177 --> 00:37:38,137
Speaker 1: don't even watch play basketball. I don't either. The lengths

557
00:37:38,177 --> 00:37:43,457
Speaker 1: that we went to to try to feel protected and useful, yes,

558
00:37:44,217 --> 00:37:48,617
Speaker 1: varied lengths. I realized that a lot of the things

559
00:37:48,737 --> 00:37:54,977
Speaker 1: that at home made me difficult at school made me useful, right,

560
00:37:55,177 --> 00:37:58,897
Speaker 1: And I just wanted to be useful. I wanted to

561
00:37:58,977 --> 00:38:03,657
Speaker 1: feel useful. I wanted to feel like less of a burden,

562
00:38:04,417 --> 00:38:07,217
Speaker 1: less of an inconvenience. And the easiest way to do

563
00:38:07,257 --> 00:38:11,537
Speaker 1: that is to turn yourself into a helper, right helper,

564
00:38:11,577 --> 00:38:14,057
Speaker 1: and a police helper and a policer. And I was

565
00:38:14,097 --> 00:38:18,377
Speaker 1: that for a while until I burned out, because you

566
00:38:18,417 --> 00:38:22,097
Speaker 1: will on that really hard. And you know, my life

567
00:38:22,137 --> 00:38:26,777
Speaker 1: is completely different now because I can be honest with

568
00:38:26,817 --> 00:38:29,737
Speaker 1: people about how I feel and what I want to

569
00:38:29,777 --> 00:38:31,497
Speaker 1: do and what I don't want to do, what I

570
00:38:31,577 --> 00:38:35,897
Speaker 1: will do, what I won't do, and I am learning

571
00:38:36,297 --> 00:38:40,817
Speaker 1: not to take it personally however they react and realizing

572
00:38:40,817 --> 00:38:43,257
Speaker 1: that it doesn't actually, their reaction doesn't actually have anything

573
00:38:43,257 --> 00:38:45,737
Speaker 1: to do with me, like it has nothing to do

574
00:38:45,817 --> 00:38:49,217
Speaker 1: with who I am. They may not like a decision

575
00:38:49,297 --> 00:38:51,777
Speaker 1: that I've made, but somebody not liking a decision I've

576
00:38:51,777 --> 00:38:54,697
Speaker 1: made is not the same as me harming them. And

577
00:38:54,857 --> 00:38:57,657
Speaker 1: I have to be okay with that. I have to

578
00:38:58,257 --> 00:39:01,937
Speaker 1: be cool with that. And that's really hard for somebody

579
00:39:01,977 --> 00:39:06,017
Speaker 1: who grew up thinking that, you know, displeasure and love

580
00:39:06,137 --> 00:39:09,457
Speaker 1: couldn't live in the same place. Anger and love couldn't

581
00:39:09,497 --> 00:39:13,137
Speaker 1: live in the same place. Annoyance, frustration and love couldn't

582
00:39:13,137 --> 00:39:15,737
Speaker 1: live in the same place, even though they absolutely do

583
00:39:15,977 --> 00:39:20,577
Speaker 1: and always apt in a healthy relationship. Absolutely, in fact,

584
00:39:20,657 --> 00:39:23,057
Speaker 1: you need to have both in order to really test

585
00:39:23,137 --> 00:39:28,217
Speaker 1: the strength of the relationship. Yes. Yes, From the time

586
00:39:28,217 --> 00:39:31,097
Speaker 1: you were very young, your mother was very clear that

587
00:39:31,177 --> 00:39:35,337
Speaker 1: if anybody touched you or hurt you, she wanted you

588
00:39:35,417 --> 00:39:39,017
Speaker 1: to come to her immediately. And even if you hated

589
00:39:39,057 --> 00:39:42,137
Speaker 1: the way your mother spoke about protecting yourself, you were

590
00:39:42,217 --> 00:39:46,057
Speaker 1: made properly afraid by her warnings and protecting your body

591
00:39:46,337 --> 00:39:48,897
Speaker 1: and that became the number one goal, and by the

592
00:39:48,897 --> 00:39:51,937
Speaker 1: time you went through puberty, you felt like your body

593
00:39:52,417 --> 00:39:56,137
Speaker 1: was betraying you. Went through puberty very early, nine years old.

594
00:39:57,297 --> 00:40:03,257
Speaker 1: How did you manage the feelings about your body betraying

595
00:40:03,337 --> 00:40:08,217
Speaker 1: you by this? These changes that people were noticing, and

596
00:40:08,297 --> 00:40:13,137
Speaker 1: the idea that your mother was terrified about somebody taking

597
00:40:13,177 --> 00:40:16,897
Speaker 1: advantage of you. For that very fact, I just cried

598
00:40:16,937 --> 00:40:23,737
Speaker 1: in secret a lot, Like a lot, I was terrified

599
00:40:24,057 --> 00:40:29,297
Speaker 1: of my changing body. I was terrified because it was

600
00:40:29,337 --> 00:40:33,257
Speaker 1: another thing that was out of my control, and yet

601
00:40:33,377 --> 00:40:39,337
Speaker 1: it affected my life so much. Your relationships with your

602
00:40:39,417 --> 00:40:45,857
Speaker 1: friends change, your relationships with boys change, your relationship with

603
00:40:45,977 --> 00:40:51,497
Speaker 1: your family changes, because, especially like in my family, all

604
00:40:51,497 --> 00:40:54,217
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you know, there are people who you're

605
00:40:54,217 --> 00:40:56,617
Speaker 1: not supposed to talk to, There are people who you're

606
00:40:56,657 --> 00:40:59,897
Speaker 1: not supposed to hug. There are things that you did

607
00:41:00,617 --> 00:41:03,777
Speaker 1: two months ago that you're not supposed to do anymore.

608
00:41:03,897 --> 00:41:06,977
Speaker 1: And it's you don't know why everything is changing or

609
00:41:07,017 --> 00:41:10,377
Speaker 1: what it really means, because the people who talk to

610
00:41:10,417 --> 00:41:13,377
Speaker 1: you about it only talk about it with fear and anger.

611
00:41:14,297 --> 00:41:19,137
Speaker 1: I grew up with my changing body, with sexuality, desire,

612
00:41:19,297 --> 00:41:23,457
Speaker 1: all of those things only being discussed in anger. It

613
00:41:23,577 --> 00:41:26,257
Speaker 1: was only you know, you bet not come in here

614
00:41:26,257 --> 00:41:29,017
Speaker 1: with no babies. I know you better not do this.

615
00:41:29,097 --> 00:41:32,457
Speaker 1: You better not do that, you know, like probably the

616
00:41:32,497 --> 00:41:36,417
Speaker 1: most reasonable thing my mother ever told me about sex,

617
00:41:36,617 --> 00:41:39,097
Speaker 1: which you know, she gave me three rules when I

618
00:41:39,217 --> 00:41:42,777
Speaker 1: was around sixteen, where she said, if you're gonna have sex,

619
00:41:43,297 --> 00:41:47,017
Speaker 1: you need to a protect your heart, which means don't

620
00:41:47,057 --> 00:41:49,217
Speaker 1: be doing it with just somebody who don't care about you.

621
00:41:49,297 --> 00:41:51,977
Speaker 1: Do it with somebody who cares about you. Protect your body,

622
00:41:52,417 --> 00:41:55,137
Speaker 1: which means where a condom, and be on birth control.

623
00:41:55,817 --> 00:41:58,217
Speaker 1: And she said, and if he's getting his, you should

624
00:41:58,257 --> 00:42:05,417
Speaker 1: be getting yours. That third one, I was not expecting

625
00:42:05,457 --> 00:42:08,097
Speaker 1: that it's not like but she was very clear, it's

626
00:42:08,097 --> 00:42:10,857
Speaker 1: not just supposed to be him, you know, like if

627
00:42:10,857 --> 00:42:13,937
Speaker 1: he's getting his, you should be getting yours too, and

628
00:42:14,257 --> 00:42:17,817
Speaker 1: that actually those three rules actually set me up to have,

629
00:42:18,257 --> 00:42:23,617
Speaker 1: for the most part, really positive sexual relationships and experiences

630
00:42:24,097 --> 00:42:29,297
Speaker 1: over the course of my life. But initially it was

631
00:42:29,497 --> 00:42:33,897
Speaker 1: all fear, it was all anger. It was like very

632
00:42:33,897 --> 00:42:37,257
Speaker 1: clear lies. You know. When I was around eleven, my

633
00:42:37,337 --> 00:42:40,017
Speaker 1: mom put a two leader bottle on the counter and

634
00:42:40,097 --> 00:42:42,577
Speaker 1: she told me, if you ever have sex with a man,

635
00:42:43,257 --> 00:42:47,857
Speaker 1: I want you to know that the penis before sexual

636
00:42:47,897 --> 00:42:53,537
Speaker 1: intercourse gets this big, and once it's inside, spikes come out,

637
00:42:53,697 --> 00:42:57,377
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Ashley, I listen. But by this time

638
00:42:57,417 --> 00:43:00,817
Speaker 1: I was already an avid library kid. I knew that

639
00:43:00,817 --> 00:43:05,217
Speaker 1: that wasn't true. I had read every book about sex

640
00:43:05,217 --> 00:43:08,017
Speaker 1: and sexuality that I could get my hands on in

641
00:43:08,057 --> 00:43:10,377
Speaker 1: the library. So I was like, yeah, okay, that's not

642
00:43:10,377 --> 00:43:13,377
Speaker 1: what's happening. But the fact that they wanted me to

643
00:43:13,417 --> 00:43:16,377
Speaker 1: be that afraid of it was like terrified. It was

644
00:43:16,497 --> 00:43:20,497
Speaker 1: obviously terrified. It messes with the kid's brain to have

645
00:43:21,897 --> 00:43:25,457
Speaker 1: sex and a maturing body put to them that way.

646
00:43:25,777 --> 00:43:29,457
Speaker 1: When other older women would see my body when I

647
00:43:29,497 --> 00:43:33,417
Speaker 1: was around fifteen years old, their reaction was to look

648
00:43:33,457 --> 00:43:36,257
Speaker 1: at me, suck their teeth and shake their heads. Oh

649
00:43:36,377 --> 00:43:40,137
Speaker 1: my god, you know, like, oh, that's too bad, you know,

650
00:43:40,497 --> 00:43:43,537
Speaker 1: because people are gonna be oh, those your breasts are

651
00:43:43,577 --> 00:43:47,057
Speaker 1: really big, that's too bad. Like people are always going

652
00:43:47,137 --> 00:43:48,937
Speaker 1: to be looking at them, people are always going to

653
00:43:49,017 --> 00:43:51,497
Speaker 1: be trying to touch them, like, ah, she's And I

654
00:43:51,537 --> 00:43:53,497
Speaker 1: remember them leaning over to my mom and being like

655
00:43:53,537 --> 00:43:58,497
Speaker 1: she's too cute. She's too cute, Like that's not okay.

656
00:43:59,617 --> 00:44:02,857
Speaker 1: And I just tried to hide. I just tried to hide.

657
00:44:02,857 --> 00:44:05,817
Speaker 1: I tried to wear things that hid my body as

658
00:44:05,937 --> 00:44:09,177
Speaker 1: much as I could. I loved being in marching band

659
00:44:09,217 --> 00:44:11,417
Speaker 1: because it took up so much of my time. But

660
00:44:11,617 --> 00:44:13,617
Speaker 1: the thing I hated about marching band is that it

661
00:44:13,657 --> 00:44:15,817
Speaker 1: was hot. You had to wear shorts, you had to

662
00:44:15,857 --> 00:44:18,137
Speaker 1: wear tank tops and things like that in order to

663
00:44:18,177 --> 00:44:20,737
Speaker 1: stay cool in the summertime, and I didn't want anybody

664
00:44:20,817 --> 00:44:28,217
Speaker 1: looking at me. Weshley And now we get to a really,

665
00:44:28,257 --> 00:44:34,337
Speaker 1: really difficult subject. When you were thirteen years old, you

666
00:44:34,377 --> 00:44:38,097
Speaker 1: were raped by a boy, ostensibly someone you knew and

667
00:44:38,217 --> 00:44:41,017
Speaker 1: was supposed to have cared for you. You were raped

668
00:44:41,057 --> 00:44:45,177
Speaker 1: by a boy in the shed in your backyard. Despite

669
00:44:46,657 --> 00:44:50,057
Speaker 1: your mom's hope that you could come to her, you

670
00:44:50,217 --> 00:44:58,777
Speaker 1: told no one why. I was convinced that if I

671
00:44:58,897 --> 00:45:02,497
Speaker 1: told my mom what had happened to me, there would

672
00:45:02,497 --> 00:45:07,977
Speaker 1: be only one of two outcomes. One. I never thought

673
00:45:07,977 --> 00:45:10,217
Speaker 1: she wouldn't believe me, but I thought she might blame me,

674
00:45:10,737 --> 00:45:13,057
Speaker 1: So that was the first one. Because I knew she

675
00:45:13,097 --> 00:45:15,857
Speaker 1: didn't like this boy. I knew she didn't really want

676
00:45:15,897 --> 00:45:17,737
Speaker 1: me around this boy, which was part of the reason

677
00:45:17,777 --> 00:45:19,937
Speaker 1: why I was talking to this boy to like sort

678
00:45:19,937 --> 00:45:24,617
Speaker 1: of say, hey, I can't be around her anymore. And

679
00:45:25,377 --> 00:45:28,217
Speaker 1: I just felt like there was a chance she would

680
00:45:28,257 --> 00:45:32,817
Speaker 1: be so upset about the fact that it happened, that

681
00:45:33,217 --> 00:45:37,177
Speaker 1: she would be upset with me and like be mad

682
00:45:37,217 --> 00:45:41,657
Speaker 1: at me. And that felt totally reasonable and feasible with

683
00:45:41,697 --> 00:45:44,777
Speaker 1: my mom at that time, and since talking to my

684
00:45:44,817 --> 00:45:48,497
Speaker 1: mom from that time, she agrees totally reasonable and feasible

685
00:45:48,537 --> 00:45:51,177
Speaker 1: that I would have felt that way. The other thing

686
00:45:51,697 --> 00:45:54,697
Speaker 1: that could have happened two of two would have been

687
00:45:54,737 --> 00:45:59,097
Speaker 1: that she did believe me and she killed him. Yeah,

688
00:45:59,137 --> 00:46:01,617
Speaker 1: she did say she would if yes, that ever happened

689
00:46:01,617 --> 00:46:06,097
Speaker 1: to you. Yes, yep, And a little quick math. Lets

690
00:46:06,137 --> 00:46:08,897
Speaker 1: me know real quick, I only have two parents, one

691
00:46:08,937 --> 00:46:15,297
Speaker 1: of them is already in prison. I've got three younger siblings.

692
00:46:17,017 --> 00:46:22,057
Speaker 1: What are we gonna do if my mom kills this

693
00:46:22,097 --> 00:46:27,817
Speaker 1: boy and then we have no parents? What are we

694
00:46:27,897 --> 00:46:32,977
Speaker 1: going to do? And so I asked myself, can you

695
00:46:33,057 --> 00:46:36,337
Speaker 1: carry this? Can you just carry it on your own?

696
00:46:37,017 --> 00:46:39,537
Speaker 1: Can you just put it in that place where you

697
00:46:39,657 --> 00:46:43,217
Speaker 1: keep all your bad self, all your bad things? Can

698
00:46:43,257 --> 00:46:45,657
Speaker 1: you just stick it over there and not think about

699
00:46:45,657 --> 00:46:50,897
Speaker 1: it anymore so that you don't hurt everybody else just

700
00:46:50,977 --> 00:46:58,497
Speaker 1: because you got hurt. That was my logic at thirteen

701
00:46:58,577 --> 00:47:03,577
Speaker 1: years old. Minimize the hurt, Let it just only hurt

702
00:47:03,617 --> 00:47:09,297
Speaker 1: you and that didn't work out, because it never does.

703
00:47:11,617 --> 00:47:16,337
Speaker 1: Did you consider going to a guidance counselor or any

704
00:47:16,457 --> 00:47:21,817
Speaker 1: type of counselor for yourself too, my, even if you

705
00:47:21,897 --> 00:47:26,777
Speaker 1: just confided in someone that would never tell your parents.

706
00:47:27,857 --> 00:47:30,937
Speaker 1: The middle school guidance counselor who I had become kind

707
00:47:30,937 --> 00:47:33,897
Speaker 1: of close to and talked to about things, had right

708
00:47:33,937 --> 00:47:38,417
Speaker 1: before all this happened been arrested for sleeping with one

709
00:47:38,457 --> 00:47:46,657
Speaker 1: of my peers, Jesus Christ. So I didn't really feel

710
00:47:46,737 --> 00:47:49,657
Speaker 1: like I had a place to go to talk to

711
00:47:49,697 --> 00:47:55,257
Speaker 1: anybody about what had happened to me. I didn't tell

712
00:47:55,897 --> 00:48:01,857
Speaker 1: anybody until UM had a best friend in band named

713
00:48:01,857 --> 00:48:07,377
Speaker 1: Brett Brett, and Brett was the first person I told

714
00:48:07,977 --> 00:48:10,897
Speaker 1: my band director, mister Caffey. At the time, we used

715
00:48:10,937 --> 00:48:13,257
Speaker 1: to have these like band camp was this amazing time.

716
00:48:13,297 --> 00:48:15,777
Speaker 1: It is this amazing time obviously for bonding for the band,

717
00:48:16,057 --> 00:48:18,497
Speaker 1: but it was also this amazing time because mister Caffee

718
00:48:18,537 --> 00:48:22,817
Speaker 1: was really serious about talking to us about loving ourselves

719
00:48:23,097 --> 00:48:26,977
Speaker 1: and about putting love in the world and being kind

720
00:48:27,097 --> 00:48:32,737
Speaker 1: and compassionate. Mister Caffey is probably one of the first

721
00:48:32,777 --> 00:48:36,457
Speaker 1: adults I ever heard talk about vulnerability, and he used

722
00:48:36,497 --> 00:48:38,617
Speaker 1: to just talk to us about all those things and

723
00:48:38,657 --> 00:48:40,897
Speaker 1: about how important it was that we cared about ourselves

724
00:48:40,937 --> 00:48:44,697
Speaker 1: and cared about each other and things like that. And

725
00:48:44,817 --> 00:48:47,977
Speaker 1: I had left that first band camp, it was my

726
00:48:48,057 --> 00:48:50,617
Speaker 1: first time going, and I was sitting on the bus

727
00:48:50,777 --> 00:48:53,337
Speaker 1: with Brett and I turned to him and I was

728
00:48:53,377 --> 00:48:56,457
Speaker 1: just like, I have to tell you something, because it

729
00:48:56,617 --> 00:49:01,177
Speaker 1: just I realized how much that secret was eating me up.

730
00:49:01,737 --> 00:49:05,337
Speaker 1: I realized how much it was hurting me on the inside.

731
00:49:05,897 --> 00:49:10,537
Speaker 1: And I trusted my friend to hear this experience and

732
00:49:11,097 --> 00:49:16,177
Speaker 1: to love me through it. And he absolutely did, you know,

733
00:49:16,657 --> 00:49:19,937
Speaker 1: which is wild for a fourteen year old boy to

734
00:49:19,977 --> 00:49:26,057
Speaker 1: hear something like that and have them go, I'm so

735
00:49:26,097 --> 00:49:29,337
Speaker 1: sorry that happened to you, and put his arm around me,

736
00:49:29,897 --> 00:49:32,657
Speaker 1: and me laying my head on his chest, and him

737
00:49:32,697 --> 00:49:36,097
Speaker 1: just like holding me for the whole bus ride back

738
00:49:36,137 --> 00:49:39,337
Speaker 1: to you know, our school, and just telling me I'm

739
00:49:39,337 --> 00:49:41,737
Speaker 1: sorry that happened to you. I love you, and I'm

740
00:49:41,777 --> 00:49:46,537
Speaker 1: sorry that happened to you. Like nobody taught, you know,

741
00:49:47,817 --> 00:49:51,497
Speaker 1: And I'm so lucky that I had people like that

742
00:49:51,617 --> 00:49:56,977
Speaker 1: around me at that time. The boy that raped you

743
00:49:57,617 --> 00:50:00,417
Speaker 1: was in the shed with one of his friends who

744
00:50:00,537 --> 00:50:06,497
Speaker 1: watched the assault. Have you ever confronted either of them? No? No,

745
00:50:07,137 --> 00:50:12,177
Speaker 1: I am. It's interesting is that years and years later,

746
00:50:12,217 --> 00:50:16,937
Speaker 1: I mean literal decades later, I got a Facebook friend

747
00:50:17,017 --> 00:50:22,297
Speaker 1: request from that boy, not the boy who watched, but

748
00:50:22,457 --> 00:50:29,417
Speaker 1: the boy who did it raped. Yeah, And I accepted

749
00:50:29,457 --> 00:50:33,977
Speaker 1: it because I wanted to know, like what is this?

750
00:50:34,177 --> 00:50:37,537
Speaker 1: Like what is this? Who are you? Who are you now?

751
00:50:38,297 --> 00:50:41,657
Speaker 1: You know? And I'm like combing through his Facebook page

752
00:50:41,657 --> 00:50:43,377
Speaker 1: because I first of all wanted to make sure he

753
00:50:43,417 --> 00:50:47,377
Speaker 1: didn't live anywhere near me. I also wanted to know,

754
00:50:47,537 --> 00:50:50,257
Speaker 1: like who's in your life? Do they know this about? You?

755
00:50:50,297 --> 00:50:54,377
Speaker 1: Know what? Like just all of these feelings about this moment,

756
00:50:54,417 --> 00:50:58,217
Speaker 1: in all of these ways that I really deeply wanted

757
00:50:58,337 --> 00:51:02,217
Speaker 1: to hurt or punish this person for what had been

758
00:51:02,257 --> 00:51:06,657
Speaker 1: done to me. And I very quickly realized that like,

759
00:51:06,817 --> 00:51:12,777
Speaker 1: oh this is bad, but I'm doing right now this

760
00:51:12,897 --> 00:51:17,697
Speaker 1: is it's not helping me, it's not hurting him. It's

761
00:51:17,937 --> 00:51:25,017
Speaker 1: me becoming obsessed and obsessive about this person and about

762
00:51:25,057 --> 00:51:29,297
Speaker 1: this life you know that I'm terrified of but fascinated by,

763
00:51:29,417 --> 00:51:33,337
Speaker 1: because what's it been like for you? What's it been

764
00:51:33,377 --> 00:51:37,057
Speaker 1: like for you? After that day. How did you go on?

765
00:51:37,297 --> 00:51:41,417
Speaker 1: How did you reconcile what happened in that shit? How

766
00:51:41,417 --> 00:51:44,377
Speaker 1: did any of you? And it just occurred to me

767
00:51:44,417 --> 00:51:47,057
Speaker 1: that like, I had this moment, I had this, you know,

768
00:51:47,137 --> 00:51:50,257
Speaker 1: like opportunity to confront him, to say something, and I

769
00:51:50,377 --> 00:51:53,017
Speaker 1: was like, oh, but that would none of that would

770
00:51:53,017 --> 00:51:57,057
Speaker 1: help me, None of that would feel good to me.

771
00:51:57,617 --> 00:52:00,177
Speaker 1: In my mind, I'm thinking it would feel so good

772
00:52:00,217 --> 00:52:04,537
Speaker 1: to confront him, but in reality I would feel like

773
00:52:04,577 --> 00:52:09,897
Speaker 1: I was giving him something again, my energy, my peace,

774
00:52:11,257 --> 00:52:15,017
Speaker 1: And so I just blocked him and good, Yeah, it's

775
00:52:15,057 --> 00:52:21,577
Speaker 1: pretty much it. Shortly after your sexual assault, your grandmother

776
00:52:22,057 --> 00:52:26,097
Speaker 1: told you why your father was in prison. And I

777
00:52:26,217 --> 00:52:29,497
Speaker 1: know that your grandmother was a great woman and truly

778
00:52:29,577 --> 00:52:32,897
Speaker 1: loved you, but she told you in a rather sort

779
00:52:32,937 --> 00:52:38,697
Speaker 1: of flippant and unusual way. Yeah. I mean, I never

780
00:52:38,737 --> 00:52:40,617
Speaker 1: met your grandmother, but I liked her very much in

781
00:52:40,657 --> 00:52:43,257
Speaker 1: the book until that moment. But you know, we all

782
00:52:43,297 --> 00:52:45,977
Speaker 1: have our moments. Can you talk a little bit about

783
00:52:46,057 --> 00:52:48,577
Speaker 1: what she told you and how she explained it to

784
00:52:48,617 --> 00:52:54,257
Speaker 1: you and what that felt like at that moment. She

785
00:52:54,937 --> 00:52:59,657
Speaker 1: was upset with me because I wouldn't talk with her

786
00:52:59,697 --> 00:53:04,257
Speaker 1: about an argument i'd had with my mom and her

787
00:53:04,297 --> 00:53:10,297
Speaker 1: reaction to which was not unreasonable unreaction. Yeah, but you know,

788
00:53:10,657 --> 00:53:13,857
Speaker 1: in my family, there's a lot, a lot of a meshment,

789
00:53:14,097 --> 00:53:19,577
Speaker 1: a lot of people not being able to understand that

790
00:53:19,937 --> 00:53:22,817
Speaker 1: you can love somebody and they can still be separate

791
00:53:23,017 --> 00:53:27,457
Speaker 1: from you, like there's still a separate, different person. That

792
00:53:27,577 --> 00:53:30,817
Speaker 1: was hard for my grandma too, I think, understand or

793
00:53:30,897 --> 00:53:35,057
Speaker 1: to come to terms with. And so her upset with

794
00:53:35,097 --> 00:53:39,377
Speaker 1: me not wanting to talk about it turned into her

795
00:53:39,417 --> 00:53:44,817
Speaker 1: revealing that my dad was in prison for rape and

796
00:53:44,977 --> 00:53:48,097
Speaker 1: that is part of the reason why my mom is

797
00:53:48,137 --> 00:53:52,377
Speaker 1: so angry, and so I just need to go easier

798
00:53:52,777 --> 00:53:58,577
Speaker 1: on my mom. And she said it to me while

799
00:53:58,617 --> 00:54:05,337
Speaker 1: we were eating bad food, like in a mall food court,

800
00:54:06,137 --> 00:54:09,337
Speaker 1: and I know in that moment that not only am

801
00:54:09,377 --> 00:54:12,537
Speaker 1: I hearing this thing that I've been wanting to know

802
00:54:12,657 --> 00:54:15,937
Speaker 1: but also terrified to know, but I'm also not allowed

803
00:54:16,017 --> 00:54:20,497
Speaker 1: to emote. If I cry, that's going to be an issue.

804
00:54:21,217 --> 00:54:25,097
Speaker 1: If I get mad, that's gonna be an issue. I

805
00:54:25,137 --> 00:54:28,337
Speaker 1: can't even let it show on my face that I'm

806
00:54:28,377 --> 00:54:33,177
Speaker 1: having any emotional reaction to finding out that my dad

807
00:54:33,297 --> 00:54:37,697
Speaker 1: is in prison for rape, because if I emote then

808
00:54:38,857 --> 00:54:43,737
Speaker 1: I have essentially said that I can't handle it if

809
00:54:43,777 --> 00:54:47,537
Speaker 1: I have any emotional reaction, that means I can't handle

810
00:54:47,617 --> 00:54:53,297
Speaker 1: talking about hard things. And it scared me. It scared

811
00:54:53,377 --> 00:54:56,457
Speaker 1: me how easy it was for me to just turn off,

812
00:54:57,297 --> 00:55:00,737
Speaker 1: because I knew that, like for a long time, I

813
00:55:00,737 --> 00:55:03,537
Speaker 1: had had the ability to sort of turn off physically,

814
00:55:04,177 --> 00:55:06,697
Speaker 1: because if I was being hit, I needed to be

815
00:55:06,817 --> 00:55:10,857
Speaker 1: able to just like let my body go numb and

816
00:55:10,977 --> 00:55:15,657
Speaker 1: not feel it disassociate. But I didn't realize at that

817
00:55:15,937 --> 00:55:18,457
Speaker 1: until that point that I could also do that on

818
00:55:18,497 --> 00:55:25,137
Speaker 1: the inside, that I could shut everything down and relegate

819
00:55:26,057 --> 00:55:31,137
Speaker 1: myself to such a tiny tiny portion of my mind

820
00:55:31,217 --> 00:55:34,777
Speaker 1: and of my heart and of my body, that who

821
00:55:34,857 --> 00:55:38,857
Speaker 1: I am, every anything about me would be imperceptible. And

822
00:55:38,937 --> 00:55:41,577
Speaker 1: it scared me how easy it was to turn off.

823
00:55:43,257 --> 00:55:46,697
Speaker 1: How did you cope? How did you in your private

824
00:55:46,737 --> 00:55:53,537
Speaker 1: moments when it was just you? How did you make

825
00:55:53,657 --> 00:55:56,497
Speaker 1: sense of this in any way? I mean, it's almost

826
00:55:56,537 --> 00:55:59,137
Speaker 1: you can't. How did you? How did you integrate it

827
00:55:59,177 --> 00:56:02,297
Speaker 1: into your psyche the way a fourteen year old does,

828
00:56:02,657 --> 00:56:06,217
Speaker 1: which is like you try to find control. You make

829
00:56:06,297 --> 00:56:13,417
Speaker 1: excuses for people who hurt you, harmed, you failed you, whatever,

830
00:56:13,457 --> 00:56:16,817
Speaker 1: it is you just you try to eat it, you

831
00:56:16,897 --> 00:56:19,937
Speaker 1: try to make it yours. If you're an internalizer, you know,

832
00:56:19,977 --> 00:56:22,897
Speaker 1: some people are externalizers. They can't hold it in and

833
00:56:23,057 --> 00:56:27,017
Speaker 1: everything comes out, everything shows up in some way on

834
00:56:27,177 --> 00:56:30,817
Speaker 1: the outside, and behavior in the way they look, like

835
00:56:30,897 --> 00:56:33,537
Speaker 1: the way they change their appearance, like all sorts of things,

836
00:56:33,577 --> 00:56:36,457
Speaker 1: and all mine was on the inside. I don't think

837
00:56:36,497 --> 00:56:42,337
Speaker 1: I was coping. I think that I was burying and

838
00:56:42,537 --> 00:56:47,017
Speaker 1: hoping that what I had buried alive stayed dead, and

839
00:56:47,537 --> 00:56:55,017
Speaker 1: it wouldn't it's gonna come back. Did the little correspondence

840
00:56:55,137 --> 00:56:58,497
Speaker 1: that you had with your dad change at that point

841
00:56:58,577 --> 00:57:04,577
Speaker 1: after the assault? Yes, when I found out about the assault,

842
00:57:05,857 --> 00:57:11,217
Speaker 1: I did not write to my father again for five years. Wow.

843
00:57:12,777 --> 00:57:15,657
Speaker 1: We had a couple of phone calls in between them,

844
00:57:16,617 --> 00:57:19,097
Speaker 1: but I didn't write to him for five years after

845
00:57:19,137 --> 00:57:26,617
Speaker 1: that because I had questions I didn't know how to ask. Yeah, yeah,

846
00:57:26,777 --> 00:57:29,017
Speaker 1: I know that your grandmother told you not to tell

847
00:57:29,057 --> 00:57:33,817
Speaker 1: your mother that she told you about your dad. So

848
00:57:33,897 --> 00:57:36,017
Speaker 1: you were also walking around now with a secret yet

849
00:57:36,057 --> 00:57:40,937
Speaker 1: where you couldn't get any comfort with from No. I

850
00:57:41,057 --> 00:57:45,817
Speaker 1: wasn't allowed to seek comfort, which is common inn in

851
00:57:46,097 --> 00:57:50,017
Speaker 1: my family, in my community. I mean I think that,

852
00:57:50,097 --> 00:57:52,577
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of people grow up in families

853
00:57:52,617 --> 00:57:55,417
Speaker 1: where they are essentially taught that the cost of familial

854
00:57:55,537 --> 00:58:00,297
Speaker 1: love is denying whatever parts of yourself don't fit into

855
00:58:00,297 --> 00:58:05,497
Speaker 1: the existing familial structure. Yeah. Yeah, our family also kept

856
00:58:05,537 --> 00:58:08,297
Speaker 1: lots and lots of secrets. You were allowed to act

857
00:58:08,377 --> 00:58:11,177
Speaker 1: like something was wrong, but you weren't allowed to talk

858
00:58:11,217 --> 00:58:15,137
Speaker 1: about what it was. So somebody would be grouchy or

859
00:58:15,217 --> 00:58:17,817
Speaker 1: sad or down and you'd say, how are you what's

860
00:58:17,817 --> 00:58:21,257
Speaker 1: going on? They're like, I'm fine, yep, And you knew

861
00:58:21,257 --> 00:58:23,497
Speaker 1: that they weren't, but you were not allowed to ask

862
00:58:23,537 --> 00:58:26,217
Speaker 1: anything more than that. Yeah, it's wild, because it's like,

863
00:58:26,297 --> 00:58:33,337
Speaker 1: that's the inconvenience, that's the burden secrets. Ashley, you didn't

864
00:58:33,337 --> 00:58:36,177
Speaker 1: think you were going to go to college, but after

865
00:58:36,297 --> 00:58:40,097
Speaker 1: encouragement from Brett, who became your boyfriend, this kind man

866
00:58:40,257 --> 00:58:44,057
Speaker 1: who comforted you on the bus, you applied to Ball

867
00:58:44,057 --> 00:58:48,017
Speaker 1: State University in Muncie, Indiana, and got in ye, and

868
00:58:48,377 --> 00:58:53,057
Speaker 1: you attended. You changed your major six times. What were

869
00:58:53,057 --> 00:58:56,417
Speaker 1: the six majors? Oh? Man? Okay, So I came in

870
00:58:56,537 --> 00:59:00,737
Speaker 1: technically with a public relations major, which I very quickly

871
00:59:00,857 --> 00:59:06,537
Speaker 1: changed to an apparel Design and Fashion merchandising major, which

872
00:59:06,617 --> 00:59:10,377
Speaker 1: I then left to become a psychology major, which I

873
00:59:10,697 --> 00:59:15,337
Speaker 1: and left to become a Social Studies teaching major, which

874
00:59:15,337 --> 00:59:18,537
Speaker 1: I then left to become an English teaching major, and

875
00:59:18,577 --> 00:59:23,897
Speaker 1: then I ended with a creative writing major. You realized

876
00:59:23,937 --> 00:59:27,897
Speaker 1: that every major you'd chosen involved storytelling and connecting to people,

877
00:59:28,017 --> 00:59:30,977
Speaker 1: and quote unquote, you gave up the ghost and became

878
00:59:31,017 --> 00:59:33,897
Speaker 1: an English major. I did. I had to. I had to.

879
00:59:34,857 --> 00:59:36,697
Speaker 1: And you say in the book that this is when

880
00:59:36,737 --> 00:59:40,017
Speaker 1: you felt like you were home, and I was really

881
00:59:40,057 --> 00:59:43,377
Speaker 1: struck by the term home, as prior to that, the

882
00:59:43,457 --> 00:59:47,897
Speaker 1: notion of home seemed so fraught for you. So this

883
00:59:48,017 --> 00:59:51,497
Speaker 1: finding of yourself in this way felt really beautiful. I

884
00:59:51,577 --> 00:59:54,777
Speaker 1: did have a warped relationship with the idea of home

885
00:59:55,257 --> 00:59:58,977
Speaker 1: because my home was usually the place where I felt

886
00:59:59,097 --> 01:00:03,097
Speaker 1: least safe, and it took a really long time for

887
01:00:03,217 --> 01:00:06,817
Speaker 1: me to understand that I'm my home right. So I

888
01:00:06,857 --> 01:00:11,657
Speaker 1: was always looking for a home that like the one

889
01:00:11,897 --> 01:00:14,337
Speaker 1: I wanted. So I always had, like, you know, for

890
01:00:14,377 --> 01:00:17,777
Speaker 1: a while, it was you know, marching band, that was

891
01:00:18,017 --> 01:00:22,017
Speaker 1: my family, that was my home. And then when I'm

892
01:00:22,017 --> 01:00:24,057
Speaker 1: in college, you know, and I have these different Majors,

893
01:00:24,057 --> 01:00:26,697
Speaker 1: and I'm struggling because I feel like I don't have

894
01:00:26,777 --> 01:00:29,217
Speaker 1: a home. And then I find the English majors and

895
01:00:29,297 --> 01:00:33,497
Speaker 1: I'm like, maybe I have a home. And that was

896
01:00:33,657 --> 01:00:39,097
Speaker 1: all just these dots on a line that we're all

897
01:00:39,177 --> 01:00:44,257
Speaker 1: leading me towards the understanding that I'm home. I am home,

898
01:00:45,257 --> 01:00:48,377
Speaker 1: and if I feel good in here, and if I

899
01:00:48,417 --> 01:00:52,057
Speaker 1: trust what's going on in here, I don't ever have

900
01:00:52,097 --> 01:00:55,137
Speaker 1: to not be home. I don't ever have to not

901
01:00:55,257 --> 01:00:57,577
Speaker 1: be in a place where I don't feel like myself.

902
01:00:57,617 --> 01:01:02,977
Speaker 1: If I'm honoring what's going on in here, I'm home, beautiful.

903
01:01:05,657 --> 01:01:11,857
Speaker 1: After graduation, you desperately tried to pursue a regular in

904
01:01:11,937 --> 01:01:15,457
Speaker 1: quotes career. But you've written that you were shit at

905
01:01:15,497 --> 01:01:18,177
Speaker 1: any your word not minus. You were shit at any

906
01:01:18,257 --> 01:01:21,057
Speaker 1: job that didn't involve writing. And you could be asked

907
01:01:21,057 --> 01:01:23,457
Speaker 1: to do the easiest tasks in the world, but you

908
01:01:23,497 --> 01:01:27,057
Speaker 1: always got bored, depressed, or resentful because you would have

909
01:01:27,217 --> 01:01:30,337
Speaker 1: rather been writing. And at that time, you were living

910
01:01:30,377 --> 01:01:34,217
Speaker 1: in Indianapolis with two roommates, you were working three part

911
01:01:34,257 --> 01:01:38,377
Speaker 1: time jobs, you had almost no money. You felt so

912
01:01:38,497 --> 01:01:41,337
Speaker 1: deeply depressed that at night you would come home, crawl

913
01:01:41,417 --> 01:01:44,697
Speaker 1: into bed still wearing your clothes, slept and woke up

914
01:01:44,737 --> 01:01:47,337
Speaker 1: when it was time to go back to work. How

915
01:01:47,337 --> 01:01:51,257
Speaker 1: did you manage to overcome that depression at that time? Well,

916
01:01:51,297 --> 01:01:54,337
Speaker 1: first of all, those two roommates took really good care

917
01:01:54,377 --> 01:01:57,377
Speaker 1: of me for the little bit when I was falling apart.

918
01:01:57,937 --> 01:02:01,697
Speaker 1: They made sure I had food to eat and didn't

919
01:02:01,777 --> 01:02:04,417
Speaker 1: kick me out even though I didn't have my part

920
01:02:04,417 --> 01:02:08,177
Speaker 1: of the rent for two months. I also lived across

921
01:02:08,217 --> 01:02:12,617
Speaker 1: the street from a library, literally my front door in

922
01:02:12,657 --> 01:02:16,777
Speaker 1: the library's front door second or like just not far apart.

923
01:02:17,537 --> 01:02:22,937
Speaker 1: And I had heard about this book called The Gifts

924
01:02:22,937 --> 01:02:26,897
Speaker 1: of Imperfection by Brenet Brown, and I was like, I'm

925
01:02:26,897 --> 01:02:28,977
Speaker 1: gonna go check out this book. You know, I got

926
01:02:29,017 --> 01:02:32,177
Speaker 1: time to read now, you know, because my car broke down.

927
01:02:32,497 --> 01:02:34,737
Speaker 1: I got fired from all three of those jobs at

928
01:02:34,777 --> 01:02:37,777
Speaker 1: the same time, and it was just not going well.

929
01:02:37,897 --> 01:02:43,057
Speaker 1: I get this book and it changed everything for me.

930
01:02:43,577 --> 01:02:46,577
Speaker 1: I don't like to act like books are like amana,

931
01:02:46,697 --> 01:02:47,977
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like, oh, if you just

932
01:02:48,017 --> 01:02:50,417
Speaker 1: read this book, everything will be okay. But I will

933
01:02:50,457 --> 01:02:54,097
Speaker 1: say that what I needed to hear was in that

934
01:02:54,137 --> 01:02:58,977
Speaker 1: book at that time, and I started to understand that

935
01:02:59,017 --> 01:03:04,417
Speaker 1: there were certain beliefs I had about me about humanity

936
01:03:04,537 --> 01:03:08,537
Speaker 1: that were keeping me from being able to express myself

937
01:03:08,617 --> 01:03:13,017
Speaker 1: as a full human. I was caught in this thing

938
01:03:13,057 --> 01:03:15,897
Speaker 1: of like, you do what you can and you just

939
01:03:15,977 --> 01:03:19,897
Speaker 1: don't worry about what you want. As a matter of fact,

940
01:03:19,937 --> 01:03:24,937
Speaker 1: the less once you have, the better. That's a fun

941
01:03:25,017 --> 01:03:30,737
Speaker 1: life exactly. So I realized really quickly that like, I

942
01:03:30,777 --> 01:03:33,817
Speaker 1: want things like not necessarily, just like things like not

943
01:03:33,817 --> 01:03:36,177
Speaker 1: necessarily like a certain kind of car or whatever. But

944
01:03:36,217 --> 01:03:40,337
Speaker 1: it's like I want things. I want things in my life,

945
01:03:40,737 --> 01:03:43,537
Speaker 1: and I don't think I should have to be miserable

946
01:03:43,777 --> 01:03:45,977
Speaker 1: to get all of the things I want, or even

947
01:03:46,017 --> 01:03:49,657
Speaker 1: some of the things I want. And I started thinking about, okay,

948
01:03:49,657 --> 01:03:52,297
Speaker 1: so what if you could be honest with yourself right

949
01:03:52,297 --> 01:03:55,697
Speaker 1: now about what you want, be really as honest as

950
01:03:55,737 --> 01:03:58,697
Speaker 1: you can about what you want? What do you want?

951
01:03:58,857 --> 01:04:01,777
Speaker 1: And I thought, I want to do work that doesn't

952
01:04:01,817 --> 01:04:04,697
Speaker 1: make me want to die. I want to do work

953
01:04:05,257 --> 01:04:09,577
Speaker 1: that doesn't make me feel like I want to come

954
01:04:09,577 --> 01:04:11,297
Speaker 1: home and get in bed with all my clothes on.

955
01:04:12,257 --> 01:04:14,417
Speaker 1: And so it was like, so, what doesn't make you

956
01:04:14,457 --> 01:04:17,017
Speaker 1: feel like that? And I was like, writing, writing doesn't

957
01:04:17,017 --> 01:04:19,137
Speaker 1: make me feel like that, it's like, okay, so where

958
01:04:19,177 --> 01:04:22,097
Speaker 1: do you want to write? And I have been for

959
01:04:22,137 --> 01:04:24,217
Speaker 1: so long, so obsessed with the idea of, like I

960
01:04:24,257 --> 01:04:26,337
Speaker 1: want to write like and things like that that, like

961
01:04:26,497 --> 01:04:29,577
Speaker 1: the idea of having specifics about where I wanted to write,

962
01:04:29,977 --> 01:04:32,417
Speaker 1: felt like it would hurt me, Like, don't have specifics

963
01:04:32,457 --> 01:04:35,617
Speaker 1: about where you want to write, because it'll hurt you

964
01:04:35,657 --> 01:04:37,457
Speaker 1: when you don't get to do it. And I was like,

965
01:04:37,617 --> 01:04:40,137
Speaker 1: screw it. I don't want to be scared of disappointment.

966
01:04:40,417 --> 01:04:42,137
Speaker 1: Let me just make this list. I made a list

967
01:04:42,177 --> 01:04:44,017
Speaker 1: of all these places that I wanted to write for

968
01:04:44,617 --> 01:04:49,377
Speaker 1: some day, and I talked online about I was on Twitter.

969
01:04:49,417 --> 01:04:51,897
Speaker 1: I talked about like making this list and you know,

970
01:04:52,137 --> 01:04:54,817
Speaker 1: wanting to write more and wanting to figure stuff out.

971
01:04:55,177 --> 01:04:59,337
Speaker 1: And the editor in chief of Indianapolis Monthly Magazine said,

972
01:04:59,417 --> 01:05:03,017
Speaker 1: let's get lunch, and I said okay, And we got

973
01:05:03,097 --> 01:05:06,977
Speaker 1: lunch and she said, I can tell just from your

974
01:05:07,017 --> 01:05:10,897
Speaker 1: tweets that you can tell a story. I have a

975
01:05:10,897 --> 01:05:16,657
Speaker 1: small assignment for you. Will you take it? Yes? Absolutely.

976
01:05:17,537 --> 01:05:20,777
Speaker 1: I was writing it and like rewriting. It's four hundred words, right,

977
01:05:20,977 --> 01:05:23,737
Speaker 1: I was just like flipping out about writing it. And

978
01:05:23,737 --> 01:05:26,097
Speaker 1: I turned it in They're like great. And then I

979
01:05:26,217 --> 01:05:29,697
Speaker 1: go and get a magazine a month later and my

980
01:05:30,577 --> 01:05:33,897
Speaker 1: little byline is in there, and I'm like, I did it.

981
01:05:34,017 --> 01:05:37,017
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Oh my god, I did it. And

982
01:05:37,217 --> 01:05:41,777
Speaker 1: from there it just became like switching my view from

983
01:05:41,897 --> 01:05:46,977
Speaker 1: you know, how do I not get disappointed? To how

984
01:05:46,977 --> 01:05:49,857
Speaker 1: do I ask for what I want and what I

985
01:05:49,897 --> 01:05:53,297
Speaker 1: need and not take it personally when people say no?

986
01:05:54,697 --> 01:05:58,417
Speaker 1: And that helped me. You got fired from all three

987
01:05:58,497 --> 01:06:02,977
Speaker 1: of your jobs and your car broke down, and so

988
01:06:03,057 --> 01:06:05,617
Speaker 1: you were sort of forced to listen to the universe

989
01:06:05,657 --> 01:06:08,057
Speaker 1: at that point, you know, and change whatever it was

990
01:06:08,457 --> 01:06:11,417
Speaker 1: you were thinking for your life. What did you make

991
01:06:11,457 --> 01:06:18,617
Speaker 1: of that? I honestly believe that when you are on

992
01:06:18,817 --> 01:06:22,817
Speaker 1: your path, not the right path, when you're on your path,

993
01:06:23,897 --> 01:06:29,137
Speaker 1: certain things start to move out of the way for you,

994
01:06:30,097 --> 01:06:34,017
Speaker 1: and things that are for you move onto that path

995
01:06:34,417 --> 01:06:36,497
Speaker 1: for you because they were already there, because that was

996
01:06:36,577 --> 01:06:41,857
Speaker 1: already your path. And I think that when I open

997
01:06:41,977 --> 01:06:46,217
Speaker 1: myself up to new opportunities, when I open myself up

998
01:06:46,257 --> 01:06:50,177
Speaker 1: to wanting things that it scares me to want, that

999
01:06:50,257 --> 01:06:54,497
Speaker 1: those things inevitably show up on my path. And it

1000
01:06:54,537 --> 01:06:57,057
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that it's like somebody standing there, going, hey,

1001
01:06:57,097 --> 01:07:00,817
Speaker 1: would you like to write a movie? But it does

1002
01:07:00,937 --> 01:07:04,817
Speaker 1: mean that suddenly those conversations start happening around me more.

1003
01:07:05,137 --> 01:07:09,897
Speaker 1: Suddenly people who have been thinking to themselves like maybe

1004
01:07:09,897 --> 01:07:11,897
Speaker 1: Ashley would be at this, or maybe she has a

1005
01:07:11,897 --> 01:07:14,097
Speaker 1: good voice for this, I'm going to reach out, all

1006
01:07:14,097 --> 01:07:18,977
Speaker 1: of a sudden they actually do reach out. One big

1007
01:07:19,057 --> 01:07:22,897
Speaker 1: catalyst for moving into the life you have now was

1008
01:07:23,017 --> 01:07:26,657
Speaker 1: getting a job in New York City at BuzzFeed. How

1009
01:07:26,697 --> 01:07:31,297
Speaker 1: did that happen? Oh man? So the job at BuzzFeed,

1010
01:07:31,377 --> 01:07:35,177
Speaker 1: I feel like goes through so many things because it's

1011
01:07:35,217 --> 01:07:38,977
Speaker 1: you know, I had met Isaac Fitzgerald and said Jones

1012
01:07:39,577 --> 01:07:45,417
Speaker 1: at AWP and years later we're sitting in a bar

1013
01:07:45,777 --> 01:07:48,657
Speaker 1: in New York because I came there to visit a

1014
01:07:48,697 --> 01:07:53,097
Speaker 1: friend for a weekend and said, happens to mention that

1015
01:07:53,137 --> 01:07:57,697
Speaker 1: he's looking for a writer for his vertical, and Isaac

1016
01:07:57,817 --> 01:08:02,577
Speaker 1: is immediately like hello, like Ashley, come on, like this

1017
01:08:02,657 --> 01:08:04,737
Speaker 1: will work, like this will you know? We could really

1018
01:08:04,777 --> 01:08:08,497
Speaker 1: make this work? And I thought it we were all

1019
01:08:08,537 --> 01:08:12,497
Speaker 1: just like talking, you know, people say things and it's whatever.

1020
01:08:13,337 --> 01:08:17,577
Speaker 1: But I got back to Indiana and said emailed me

1021
01:08:17,577 --> 01:08:20,217
Speaker 1: and was like, hey, I actually think this is a

1022
01:08:20,257 --> 01:08:23,857
Speaker 1: really good idea. Would you write something for me so

1023
01:08:23,897 --> 01:08:26,777
Speaker 1: that I can get a sense of how we work together?

1024
01:08:26,777 --> 01:08:29,657
Speaker 1: And I was like, absolutely, we worked on a piece together.

1025
01:08:30,537 --> 01:08:33,897
Speaker 1: Next thing I knew, I had a job offer from

1026
01:08:33,977 --> 01:08:38,497
Speaker 1: BuzzFeed in New York and I started the following Monday,

1027
01:08:38,977 --> 01:08:42,257
Speaker 1: and it felt like a whirlwind. It felt like how

1028
01:08:42,297 --> 01:08:46,457
Speaker 1: did this happen? Like why did this happen? But it

1029
01:08:46,577 --> 01:08:48,457
Speaker 1: was also one of those things where it was like,

1030
01:08:48,577 --> 01:08:52,017
Speaker 1: you have the opportunity to go right full time for

1031
01:08:52,097 --> 01:08:55,737
Speaker 1: a company that's doing well. Why not give it a

1032
01:08:55,777 --> 01:08:58,697
Speaker 1: shot and just see if you can do this and

1033
01:08:59,137 --> 01:09:03,777
Speaker 1: make this particular dream come true. Your boyfriend at the time,

1034
01:09:03,857 --> 01:09:07,257
Speaker 1: now your husband, Kelly, was planning on going to Seattle,

1035
01:09:07,657 --> 01:09:10,457
Speaker 1: and eventually you were going to join him. But when

1036
01:09:10,457 --> 01:09:12,857
Speaker 1: you got the gig in New York, he came with you.

1037
01:09:13,417 --> 01:09:16,657
Speaker 1: Did that surprise? Actually he was already living in Seattle,

1038
01:09:16,897 --> 01:09:20,057
Speaker 1: and I was going to go live with him in Seattle,

1039
01:09:20,137 --> 01:09:24,297
Speaker 1: like that was the plan. And yes, it totally surprised

1040
01:09:24,297 --> 01:09:26,617
Speaker 1: me that he was willing to move to New York

1041
01:09:26,657 --> 01:09:30,497
Speaker 1: because at that time, Kelly had done an internship in

1042
01:09:30,497 --> 01:09:33,977
Speaker 1: New York his last semester of college and He walked

1043
01:09:34,017 --> 01:09:36,657
Speaker 1: away from that situation feeling like, I don't think I

1044
01:09:36,657 --> 01:09:39,297
Speaker 1: could live in New York. I don't think that, you know,

1045
01:09:39,417 --> 01:09:41,817
Speaker 1: I would want to live there full time. And all

1046
01:09:41,857 --> 01:09:43,897
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you know, we're seeing each other and

1047
01:09:43,937 --> 01:09:47,977
Speaker 1: I'm like, I got a job offer in New York,

1048
01:09:48,297 --> 01:09:51,337
Speaker 1: and I was really really thinking that he would be like,

1049
01:09:51,377 --> 01:09:54,817
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, like I can't do that, Like I can't

1050
01:09:54,817 --> 01:09:57,937
Speaker 1: make that work. And we're already in Indiana and Seattle.

1051
01:09:58,657 --> 01:10:00,737
Speaker 1: Now we're going to be in New York in Seattle,

1052
01:10:00,897 --> 01:10:04,177
Speaker 1: like literally across the country from each other, like I

1053
01:10:04,217 --> 01:10:09,297
Speaker 1: don't think, And there was just no hesitation. There was

1054
01:10:09,417 --> 01:10:12,097
Speaker 1: no hesitation. He said, Oh, well, I guess we're moving

1055
01:10:12,097 --> 01:10:17,457
Speaker 1: to New York, you know that quickly. And Kelly is

1056
01:10:17,777 --> 01:10:27,257
Speaker 1: my first experience of being loved boldly ghostbus and so

1057
01:10:28,017 --> 01:10:32,577
Speaker 1: he just has always had this this certainty about me,

1058
01:10:33,617 --> 01:10:37,297
Speaker 1: about his feelings for me, about the fact that he

1059
01:10:37,337 --> 01:10:42,217
Speaker 1: wants to be with me, you know, and that sureness

1060
01:10:42,337 --> 01:10:46,577
Speaker 1: that certainty has. I don't even know how to describe

1061
01:10:46,737 --> 01:10:50,337
Speaker 1: what it means to somebody who grew up feeling like

1062
01:10:50,337 --> 01:10:54,817
Speaker 1: a burden in an inconvenience to have somebody smart and

1063
01:10:55,057 --> 01:10:58,617
Speaker 1: funny and cute and kind who looks at you and

1064
01:10:58,697 --> 01:11:02,097
Speaker 1: it's like, oh yeah, like you're I won. I won.

1065
01:11:03,577 --> 01:11:07,257
Speaker 1: It's really sometimes hard to reconcile. And I think that

1066
01:11:07,657 --> 01:11:10,137
Speaker 1: I thought going to New York a little bit was like,

1067
01:11:10,137 --> 01:11:13,017
Speaker 1: oh maybe this is the out he needs, you know,

1068
01:11:13,137 --> 01:11:15,977
Speaker 1: like maybe he's been trying to like get away and

1069
01:11:16,057 --> 01:11:18,217
Speaker 1: now he's like, oh, well, I just can't come to

1070
01:11:18,257 --> 01:11:22,457
Speaker 1: New York. That's the only reason. Sorry, by, And that's

1071
01:11:22,457 --> 01:11:25,737
Speaker 1: not what happened. He was just immediately on board. But

1072
01:11:25,857 --> 01:11:29,137
Speaker 1: that's Kelly. If anybody's on my team, Kelly Stacey is

1073
01:11:29,137 --> 01:11:33,777
Speaker 1: on my team. That makes me happy. You deserve that.

1074
01:11:34,377 --> 01:11:37,137
Speaker 1: Thank you. So in the meantime, you're working at BuzzFeed.

1075
01:11:37,177 --> 01:11:41,217
Speaker 1: You're also beginning to submit your work to lots of publications,

1076
01:11:41,257 --> 01:11:44,297
Speaker 1: and we're getting published. You wrote the piece for a

1077
01:11:44,297 --> 01:11:47,577
Speaker 1: Refinery twenty nine about your dad that went viral. You

1078
01:11:47,617 --> 01:11:52,497
Speaker 1: have written since for The Guardian, El Magazine, Out Magazine, Slate, Teen, Vogue,

1079
01:11:52,537 --> 01:11:56,977
Speaker 1: New York Magazine, Alore, Marie Claire, The New York Times, Netflix, Domino,

1080
01:11:57,097 --> 01:11:59,777
Speaker 1: Cup of Joe, and the list just goes on and on.

1081
01:12:00,137 --> 01:12:03,337
Speaker 1: You've also taught creative nonfiction writing at the New School.

1082
01:12:03,777 --> 01:12:08,497
Speaker 1: You've hosted numerous podcasts, including The Chronicles of Now for Pushkin,

1083
01:12:08,857 --> 01:12:13,897
Speaker 1: the HBO Companion Podcas Hast for Lovecraft Country Radio, Audible's

1084
01:12:14,017 --> 01:12:19,137
Speaker 1: literary interview series Authorized. You've been named among Forbes Magazines

1085
01:12:19,337 --> 01:12:23,977
Speaker 1: Thirty Under, Thirty in Media, Brooklyn Magazines, Brooklyn one hundred,

1086
01:12:24,097 --> 01:12:27,617
Speaker 1: Time Out, New York's New Yorkers of the Year, and Varieties,

1087
01:12:27,777 --> 01:12:30,337
Speaker 1: New Power of New York. Actually, I think it's safe

1088
01:12:30,337 --> 01:12:34,337
Speaker 1: to say you have made it. Yeah, it's wild. It's

1089
01:12:35,457 --> 01:12:41,017
Speaker 1: incredible and beautiful. Congratulation, Thank you, Thank you. How and

1090
01:12:41,137 --> 01:12:44,137
Speaker 1: when did you get your book deal? I got my

1091
01:12:44,257 --> 01:12:52,857
Speaker 1: book deal in the winter of two thousand seventeen. I

1092
01:12:52,897 --> 01:12:57,897
Speaker 1: finally finished my proposal and my agent and I were

1093
01:12:57,937 --> 01:13:03,297
Speaker 1: sending it to editors at different publishing houses. I was

1094
01:13:03,377 --> 01:13:05,897
Speaker 1: hoping to hear back from maybe like one or two

1095
01:13:06,097 --> 01:13:09,377
Speaker 1: editors who had reached out and had interest in the

1096
01:13:09,417 --> 01:13:12,697
Speaker 1: book before we were even with the proposal stage, and

1097
01:13:13,057 --> 01:13:19,017
Speaker 1: we ended up hearing from like fourteen editors. Yeah, it's

1098
01:13:19,017 --> 01:13:22,897
Speaker 1: a big bidding warfare, but it was wild. So it

1099
01:13:22,937 --> 01:13:28,537
Speaker 1: went to auction and it came down to two publishing houses,

1100
01:13:28,697 --> 01:13:33,297
Speaker 1: both of whom I'd loved. The editor I'd loved the

1101
01:13:33,337 --> 01:13:36,617
Speaker 1: publishing house. There was, you know, very little difference between

1102
01:13:36,657 --> 01:13:40,337
Speaker 1: the two except for one of those publishing houses says

1103
01:13:40,377 --> 01:13:43,617
Speaker 1: and by the way, we gave the proposal to an

1104
01:13:43,617 --> 01:13:47,417
Speaker 1: Oprah book, and Oprah really liked it and they would

1105
01:13:47,457 --> 01:13:52,617
Speaker 1: be willing to sign on as the imprint. So then

1106
01:13:52,657 --> 01:13:55,177
Speaker 1: your book would be an Oprah book. And here's what

1107
01:13:55,217 --> 01:13:57,977
Speaker 1: that means and what it doesn't mean, right, because they

1108
01:13:57,977 --> 01:13:59,657
Speaker 1: gotta let you know that, like, this does not mean

1109
01:13:59,697 --> 01:14:01,377
Speaker 1: you are Oprah's best friend of y'all going to hang

1110
01:14:01,417 --> 01:14:04,417
Speaker 1: out fair enough, but it does mean that, like she

1111
01:14:04,577 --> 01:14:08,337
Speaker 1: really likes this book and like she picks and so

1112
01:14:09,057 --> 01:14:14,017
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, now this just became a really

1113
01:14:14,257 --> 01:14:18,897
Speaker 1: hard decision. But I ultimately went with Flat Iron for

1114
01:14:19,417 --> 01:14:22,617
Speaker 1: a few different reasons, one of them just being how

1115
01:14:22,737 --> 01:14:27,217
Speaker 1: much I love my editor, Brand Clark. Another one of

1116
01:14:27,217 --> 01:14:30,137
Speaker 1: them being the fact that when we went to meet

1117
01:14:30,737 --> 01:14:34,577
Speaker 1: Flat Iron Publishing, the whole crew showed up to meet

1118
01:14:34,617 --> 01:14:40,017
Speaker 1: with me. Peep, everybody from marketing, the publisher, was the

1119
01:14:40,017 --> 01:14:46,337
Speaker 1: executive editors, like everybody was there to talk about their

1120
01:14:46,457 --> 01:14:49,977
Speaker 1: vision of my book and their vision of like what

1121
01:14:50,017 --> 01:14:51,937
Speaker 1: it would look like to publish my book, and that

1122
01:14:52,057 --> 01:14:54,657
Speaker 1: just made me feel really safe, and it made me

1123
01:14:54,697 --> 01:14:58,897
Speaker 1: feel really cared for. And that continued throughout the process

1124
01:14:59,417 --> 01:15:01,457
Speaker 1: up until the book pub I mean even now, I

1125
01:15:01,457 --> 01:15:03,817
Speaker 1: can't even say just up until the book published, Even

1126
01:15:03,897 --> 01:15:08,297
Speaker 1: now I have felt you did have an interview with it.

1127
01:15:08,377 --> 01:15:13,497
Speaker 1: I did have an interview with Oprah. Actually, you begin

1128
01:15:13,657 --> 01:15:16,537
Speaker 1: and end your book with the notion of your dad

1129
01:15:16,577 --> 01:15:20,137
Speaker 1: getting out of prison, but we don't know what happens after.

1130
01:15:20,817 --> 01:15:24,417
Speaker 1: What is your relationship like with him? Now, let me

1131
01:15:24,457 --> 01:15:30,417
Speaker 1: try not to cry. I have a really, really great

1132
01:15:30,497 --> 01:15:37,737
Speaker 1: relationship with my dad. Um. One of the things we

1133
01:15:37,857 --> 01:15:40,057
Speaker 1: both realized is that a lot of the assumptions we

1134
01:15:40,057 --> 01:15:42,977
Speaker 1: were making about each other when we weren't in connection

1135
01:15:43,057 --> 01:15:47,457
Speaker 1: were real, Like they turned out to be true things.

1136
01:15:47,497 --> 01:15:50,177
Speaker 1: Even as I learned about my dad and I learned

1137
01:15:50,217 --> 01:15:52,577
Speaker 1: the truth about his life and his past, and I

1138
01:15:52,617 --> 01:15:54,617
Speaker 1: get to I get to know him, and I get

1139
01:15:54,617 --> 01:15:56,377
Speaker 1: to sort of, you know, I get to be friends

1140
01:15:56,417 --> 01:16:02,057
Speaker 1: with my dad, I'm also learning that, you know, all

1141
01:16:02,097 --> 01:16:05,217
Speaker 1: of the things that I had hoped were true about

1142
01:16:05,337 --> 01:16:10,817
Speaker 1: him in terms of his uh temperament and all so

1143
01:16:10,857 --> 01:16:13,857
Speaker 1: the way he feels about me, that all of those

1144
01:16:13,897 --> 01:16:18,617
Speaker 1: things were correct. All of those things were right, My

1145
01:16:18,697 --> 01:16:23,697
Speaker 1: feelings were correct, And so now we can do things

1146
01:16:23,737 --> 01:16:29,857
Speaker 1: like meet each other for breakfast, or we go for walks,

1147
01:16:30,577 --> 01:16:34,777
Speaker 1: you know, or we just sit around and talk for

1148
01:16:34,817 --> 01:16:37,977
Speaker 1: a long time about all kinds of things, about everything,

1149
01:16:38,297 --> 01:16:40,577
Speaker 1: And there's nothing I can't talk to my dad about.

1150
01:16:40,617 --> 01:16:44,297
Speaker 1: There's nothing we can't discuss, like we're able to just

1151
01:16:44,337 --> 01:16:46,897
Speaker 1: be really real with each other and really honest with

1152
01:16:46,937 --> 01:16:50,097
Speaker 1: each other, and getting to have that relationship with a

1153
01:16:50,177 --> 01:16:53,297
Speaker 1: parent at this point in my life. Even though I

1154
01:16:53,377 --> 01:16:55,857
Speaker 1: have to deal with some of the angrier that I

1155
01:16:55,977 --> 01:17:01,097
Speaker 1: have about it not coming earlier, I am so grateful

1156
01:17:01,377 --> 01:17:04,937
Speaker 1: and so happy that I get to have it now,

1157
01:17:04,977 --> 01:17:09,137
Speaker 1: because some people never get it right, some people never

1158
01:17:09,177 --> 01:17:13,137
Speaker 1: ever ever get it. But I get to be close

1159
01:17:13,617 --> 01:17:16,337
Speaker 1: to my dad just as I am. I don't have

1160
01:17:16,377 --> 01:17:20,697
Speaker 1: to pretend to be or not be anything, and he

1161
01:17:20,817 --> 01:17:23,657
Speaker 1: still treats me like the sun shines out of my ass,

1162
01:17:24,457 --> 01:17:28,617
Speaker 1: like because I'm his daughter and he loves me and

1163
01:17:28,697 --> 01:17:32,417
Speaker 1: he's always on my side. It's so weird to have

1164
01:17:32,577 --> 01:17:35,897
Speaker 1: that now, but I'm so happy I have it. I'm

1165
01:17:35,977 --> 01:17:42,537
Speaker 1: so happy. I know you asked him about his crime

1166
01:17:43,257 --> 01:17:46,057
Speaker 1: in a letter and this is not in the book,

1167
01:17:46,657 --> 01:17:48,977
Speaker 1: and He responded by telling you that he had been

1168
01:17:49,017 --> 01:17:54,017
Speaker 1: a young, insecure, deeply afraid man, and he made a choice,

1169
01:17:54,577 --> 01:17:57,697
Speaker 1: an inhuman choice, because he was not thinking of some

1170
01:17:57,817 --> 01:18:01,057
Speaker 1: other people as human. And he goes on to state

1171
01:18:01,137 --> 01:18:03,377
Speaker 1: that he was so wrapped up in his own pain

1172
01:18:03,897 --> 01:18:06,337
Speaker 1: and in his own fear about his life and his

1173
01:18:06,417 --> 01:18:09,577
Speaker 1: ability and capability, that he took it out on two

1174
01:18:09,617 --> 01:18:13,337
Speaker 1: people who didn't deserve it, who had their own lives

1175
01:18:13,737 --> 01:18:16,977
Speaker 1: and their own dreams, and he became a monster so

1176
01:18:17,017 --> 01:18:21,817
Speaker 1: that he didn't have to become a man. Yeah, it's

1177
01:18:21,817 --> 01:18:26,137
Speaker 1: a pretty remarkable realization. Yeah, it took a lot of

1178
01:18:26,177 --> 01:18:33,217
Speaker 1: growth thirty years. How Yeah, do you see what he

1179
01:18:33,297 --> 01:18:39,097
Speaker 1: did differently now? I can see it now with more

1180
01:18:39,177 --> 01:18:48,897
Speaker 1: of his humanity involved. But the nature of the crime,

1181
01:18:49,457 --> 01:18:56,737
Speaker 1: the effects of the crime, I understand intimately. And because

1182
01:18:56,777 --> 01:19:01,017
Speaker 1: of that, I know that I can't forgive him on

1183
01:19:01,257 --> 01:19:06,137
Speaker 1: anyone else's behalf right. I can forgive him for being

1184
01:19:06,217 --> 01:19:10,177
Speaker 1: gone and not being there. I can forgive him for

1185
01:19:10,217 --> 01:19:14,137
Speaker 1: the ways his absence has affected my life. But I

1186
01:19:14,177 --> 01:19:16,657
Speaker 1: can't forgive him for what he did to those people.

1187
01:19:17,137 --> 01:19:21,577
Speaker 1: I can't do that because that's not that's not my right,

1188
01:19:22,937 --> 01:19:28,577
Speaker 1: it's not my right. So even though as a thirty

1189
01:19:28,577 --> 01:19:32,137
Speaker 1: four year old woman I now geat like I can

1190
01:19:32,217 --> 01:19:35,297
Speaker 1: look at the situation and be like, wow, this was

1191
01:19:35,337 --> 01:19:41,177
Speaker 1: a twenty year old, very unwell man. That adds context,

1192
01:19:42,097 --> 01:19:48,977
Speaker 1: that adds a little more reality to that situation. But

1193
01:19:49,297 --> 01:19:58,337
Speaker 1: it forgives nothing, It abdicates nothing, because, as my dad

1194
01:19:58,377 --> 01:20:02,737
Speaker 1: would say, living with the truth of what he did

1195
01:20:03,657 --> 01:20:09,857
Speaker 1: isn't something that's forced on him. It's just reality. He

1196
01:20:10,337 --> 01:20:15,177
Speaker 1: does live in that delusion where somebody's doing something to him,

1197
01:20:15,697 --> 01:20:19,177
Speaker 1: somebody's forcing him to live in the past or something. No,

1198
01:20:20,337 --> 01:20:22,777
Speaker 1: he made a choice and that choice is part of

1199
01:20:22,817 --> 01:20:26,977
Speaker 1: his past and it always will be. So I don't

1200
01:20:27,017 --> 01:20:30,897
Speaker 1: see it differently in terms of how I feel about

1201
01:20:30,977 --> 01:20:35,297
Speaker 1: the severity or my ability to forgive. I see it

1202
01:20:35,377 --> 01:20:43,017
Speaker 1: differently in that now I see who was actually there

1203
01:20:43,777 --> 01:20:47,057
Speaker 1: and who was actually making those choices in the moment.

1204
01:20:48,417 --> 01:20:51,777
Speaker 1: And yet it fills out the picture. But it doesn't

1205
01:20:51,857 --> 01:20:55,897
Speaker 1: it doesn't change the colors. He wrote this about your

1206
01:20:55,937 --> 01:21:00,337
Speaker 1: relationship with your mother in my dream of dream of dreams.

1207
01:21:00,457 --> 01:21:03,137
Speaker 1: In my fantasy, one day, my mom and I will

1208
01:21:03,137 --> 01:21:07,257
Speaker 1: have some conversation that breaks everything open and we will

1209
01:21:07,337 --> 01:21:09,937
Speaker 1: realize that we can be honest with each other, and

1210
01:21:09,977 --> 01:21:12,377
Speaker 1: we can be been with each other, and she will

1211
01:21:12,417 --> 01:21:14,657
Speaker 1: give me the benefit of the doubt, and she will

1212
01:21:14,737 --> 01:21:18,337
Speaker 1: understand that my need to talk about true things is

1213
01:21:18,377 --> 01:21:21,097
Speaker 1: not an attempt to punish her, but an attempt to

1214
01:21:21,137 --> 01:21:24,737
Speaker 1: connect with her. I'm wondering, has she has she read

1215
01:21:24,777 --> 01:21:31,257
Speaker 1: your book? No? And she won't. Yeah, I can understand.

1216
01:21:31,257 --> 01:21:35,177
Speaker 1: Why what is your relationship like now? The same? I mean,

1217
01:21:35,257 --> 01:21:39,657
Speaker 1: it's not really changed. Me and my mom have not had,

1218
01:21:39,857 --> 01:21:45,697
Speaker 1: you know, like a quarreling relationship since I was probably

1219
01:21:46,017 --> 01:21:49,177
Speaker 1: like I mean since I was a teenager, maybe like

1220
01:21:49,497 --> 01:21:52,537
Speaker 1: some of the time in college, very little, because my

1221
01:21:52,617 --> 01:21:57,577
Speaker 1: mom only knows how to relate to me as my

1222
01:21:57,897 --> 01:22:02,257
Speaker 1: provider in a lot of senses, and once she was

1223
01:22:02,297 --> 01:22:06,177
Speaker 1: no longer providing for me in any way, she didn't

1224
01:22:06,177 --> 01:22:07,937
Speaker 1: know how to talk to me. She didn't know what

1225
01:22:08,017 --> 01:22:10,617
Speaker 1: to talk to me about. And that's when things got

1226
01:22:11,097 --> 01:22:14,337
Speaker 1: hard in a different way. And I think that, you know,

1227
01:22:14,737 --> 01:22:18,417
Speaker 1: we had to have some come to Jesus moments where

1228
01:22:18,657 --> 01:22:23,377
Speaker 1: I had to stand up for myself. I really had

1229
01:22:23,417 --> 01:22:28,177
Speaker 1: to stand up for myself, and once I did, the

1230
01:22:28,297 --> 01:22:35,697
Speaker 1: relationships settled into a plateau. So we're not close. We

1231
01:22:35,777 --> 01:22:41,617
Speaker 1: love each other. But we're not close, and the fantasy

1232
01:22:41,857 --> 01:22:45,297
Speaker 1: of being close is one that I've essentially given up on.

1233
01:22:45,977 --> 01:22:51,057
Speaker 1: I leave room in reality for the small chance that

1234
01:22:51,137 --> 01:22:53,857
Speaker 1: at some point she decides she wants to do things differently,

1235
01:22:54,577 --> 01:22:57,897
Speaker 1: and then we go about doing the work of doing

1236
01:22:57,937 --> 01:23:03,017
Speaker 1: them differently. I'm totally open to that. But we're not there.

1237
01:23:03,257 --> 01:23:08,697
Speaker 1: She's not there, and I'm okay with that because my

1238
01:23:08,777 --> 01:23:13,857
Speaker 1: life is good. My life is really really good. And

1239
01:23:14,257 --> 01:23:18,257
Speaker 1: the people who love me and can respect my boundaries

1240
01:23:18,417 --> 01:23:21,857
Speaker 1: and can see me as I am and hold that

1241
01:23:22,017 --> 01:23:27,697
Speaker 1: and hold me within that, they're all here, They're all around,

1242
01:23:27,737 --> 01:23:32,297
Speaker 1: they are available and accessible to me. So because I

1243
01:23:32,377 --> 01:23:36,137
Speaker 1: have what I need, I'm not waiting for her to

1244
01:23:36,177 --> 01:23:41,057
Speaker 1: give me something different. Actually, I have two last questions

1245
01:23:41,097 --> 01:23:45,497
Speaker 1: for you. Number one, will there be a movie adaptation

1246
01:23:45,617 --> 01:23:49,537
Speaker 1: of Somebody's Daughter? I don't know, I own the film rights,

1247
01:23:49,977 --> 01:23:51,537
Speaker 1: you know what it is. I have good taste. I

1248
01:23:51,577 --> 01:23:55,377
Speaker 1: have good taste, And if you're gonna make a movie

1249
01:23:55,497 --> 01:23:57,617
Speaker 1: out of my book, I would just like it to

1250
01:23:57,657 --> 01:23:59,457
Speaker 1: not suck. I don't need it to be the best

1251
01:23:59,457 --> 01:24:01,457
Speaker 1: thing ever. Okay, it's not going to be. What's love

1252
01:24:01,497 --> 01:24:05,017
Speaker 1: got to do with it? But also you know, this

1253
01:24:05,097 --> 01:24:07,297
Speaker 1: is an Aequila in the bee, you know, so like

1254
01:24:07,897 --> 01:24:10,257
Speaker 1: you need somebody who can deal with the source material

1255
01:24:10,377 --> 01:24:13,017
Speaker 1: and hold on to it in the way that it

1256
01:24:13,057 --> 01:24:16,017
Speaker 1: needs to be held onto in a project like that. Yeah,

1257
01:24:16,057 --> 01:24:18,977
Speaker 1: it's such a visual book. You can't help but visualize

1258
01:24:19,057 --> 01:24:22,177
Speaker 1: everything that's happening as you are reading. So I could

1259
01:24:22,177 --> 01:24:24,577
Speaker 1: see where it might be hard, but I look forward

1260
01:24:24,577 --> 01:24:27,737
Speaker 1: to the possibility. All Right, My last question. You know

1261
01:24:27,817 --> 01:24:31,497
Speaker 1: I want this, you know I want this. When will

1262
01:24:31,537 --> 01:24:36,137
Speaker 1: you be getting your own television talk show? That's so

1263
01:24:36,217 --> 01:24:39,137
Speaker 1: wild that you say that, I have no idea. I

1264
01:24:39,177 --> 01:24:44,177
Speaker 1: haven't been doing a lot of on camera interviews in

1265
01:24:44,217 --> 01:24:46,337
Speaker 1: a while, Like It's probably been a year or more

1266
01:24:46,377 --> 01:24:50,537
Speaker 1: since I've done an on camera interview, and I'm starting

1267
01:24:50,537 --> 01:24:53,417
Speaker 1: to miss it. I really am starting to miss it.

1268
01:24:53,457 --> 01:24:57,417
Speaker 1: So I don't know. There's no plans, no tone talk show.

1269
01:24:58,537 --> 01:25:02,377
Speaker 1: Maybe some Actually, I mean, it has to happen. It

1270
01:25:02,417 --> 01:25:04,617
Speaker 1: would be a dream. It would be a dream that

1271
01:25:05,337 --> 01:25:08,657
Speaker 1: has to be one of your future next steps. So

1272
01:25:08,897 --> 01:25:11,537
Speaker 1: putting it out there in the universe beca you would

1273
01:25:11,577 --> 01:25:16,577
Speaker 1: just be extraordinary. I'm absolutely extraordinary to do that. Ashley

1274
01:25:16,737 --> 01:25:19,977
Speaker 1: s Ford, Thank you, thank you, thank you for bringing

1275
01:25:20,017 --> 01:25:23,097
Speaker 1: so much truth into the world in such a beautiful way.

1276
01:25:23,217 --> 01:25:25,697
Speaker 1: And thank you for joining me today on Design Matters.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me daddy. Ashley s Ford's latest

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Speaker 1: book is the New York Times best selling Somebody's Daughter.

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Speaker 1: You can find out more about Ashley on her website

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Speaker 1: Ashley cefd dot net. This is the seventeenth year we've

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Speaker 1: been podcasting Design Matters, and I'd like to thank you

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Speaker 1: for listening. And remember we can talk about making a difference.

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Speaker 1: We could make a difference, or we can do both.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jebbie Mellman and I'll go into talking with you

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Speaker 1: again soon. Design Matters is produced from the Ted Audio

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Speaker 1: Collective by Curtis Fox Productions in non pandemic times. The

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Speaker 1: show is recorded at the School of Visual Arts Masters

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Speaker 1: and Branding Program in New York City, the first and

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Speaker 1: longest running branding program in the world. The editor in

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Speaker 1: chief of Design Matters Media is Emily win H