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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: A torpedo hits the defense as a Monster surgeon ex

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Speaker 2: hubby gives a fake alibi two police and it's a

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Speaker 2: busted wide open this after the murder of his ex

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Speaker 2: wife and her new husband in their own bed. And

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Speaker 2: tonight the monster Surgeon's ex girlfriend speaking out and did

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Speaker 2: a clerical error spark a murder spree? And Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 2: this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for

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Speaker 2: being with us. He's talking about on the dating apps,

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Speaker 2: how he wants children, how he wants to settle down,

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Speaker 2: yet he's all alone. I wonder why they were married

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Speaker 2: and murdered in the same home.

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Speaker 1: Tony Knights.

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Speaker 2: Did he hunch over his computer screen watching Monique?

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Speaker 1: Does nobody watch true crime?

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Speaker 2: Reportedly, the Monster Surgeon blurts out in alibi before he immediately.

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Speaker 1: Invokes his right to the Fifth Amendment, but it's too late.

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Speaker 1: He's busted in a lie.

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Speaker 2: Joining us an all star panel, but first rate out

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Speaker 2: to Crime Stories investigative reporter Dave mac What in the

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Speaker 2: hey you think this is a guy who is an

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Speaker 2: honor student. First of all, he performs at a very

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Speaker 2: high level on the football field. Okay, then he is

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Speaker 2: D's List honor student through undergrad then he gets to

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Speaker 2: med school, then he is an honor student in med school,

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Speaker 2: becomes a vascular surgeon who is licensed to practice medicine

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Speaker 2: in multiple states, and he blurts out of fake alibi, idiot.

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Speaker 1: What happened, Nancy?

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Speaker 3: It seems as though before his arrest, police actually got

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Speaker 3: up with doctor McKee and asked, Hey, where were you

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Speaker 3: on this particular night on December thirtieth, not an uncommon

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Speaker 3: thing to do with an ex spout, And his story, Nancy,

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Speaker 3: is that he had booked a room at his hospital

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Speaker 3: where he's a surgeon, OSF Saint Anthony Medical Center in Rocker, Illinois,

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Speaker 3: and that that's where he was the entire night. Investigators

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Speaker 3: are able to bust that wide open.

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Speaker 2: Joining me now, the investigative reporter for The Mirror and

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Speaker 2: the Irish star Lena Mandenburg rot Row.

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Speaker 1: Oh, what a tangled web we weave.

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Speaker 2: When first we practiced to deceive busted? What happened, Yolina?

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Speaker 4: Well, he left his phone at the hospital, and he

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Speaker 4: booked a sleep room at the hospital where he's a surgeon,

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Speaker 4: which would be a normal, believable thing many many doctors do.

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Speaker 4: He left his phone, which we assume allegedly if he

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Speaker 4: went out there was so it doesn't ping off the

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Speaker 4: cell phone hours and so everything looks legit. However, all

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Speaker 4: investigators had to do was probably check the video feed

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Speaker 4: and the surveillance videos from the hospital where he works.

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Speaker 4: It's really easy to overcome that alibi, even though it

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Speaker 4: seems very legitimate for a doctor like him.

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Speaker 2: Alina Vandeburgh joining us from The Mirror and the Irish Star.

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Speaker 1: You're absolutely correct.

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Speaker 2: Randy Kessler, veteran trial lawyer, defense attorney out of the

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Speaker 2: Atlanta Jurisdiction and professor Emory Law School and former chairman

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Speaker 2: of the ABA Family Law Section, that's the American Bar Association,

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Speaker 2: author of Divorce, Protect Yourself, your Kids, in your future.

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Speaker 2: You better write another book, Shut your pie hole. That's

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Speaker 2: just a suggestion for a title. Don't you just hate

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Speaker 2: it when you get a medical doctor criminal defendant, because

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Speaker 2: you do know they know more than everybody else. But

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Speaker 2: the way I see it, having a medical doctor is

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Speaker 2: a criminal defendant client is like asking me to go

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Speaker 2: perform heart surgery. Now ask me to go try a

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Speaker 2: serial killer.

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Speaker 1: Sure you're on. You've got a medical.

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Speaker 2: Doctor trying to outsmart the justice system. Or maybe he

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Speaker 2: just took his cues from Brian Coberger. Oops, he got

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Speaker 2: convicted for quadruple murder. So does the doctor, in all

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Speaker 2: of his wisdom, try to outsmart law enforcement by planting

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Speaker 2: a phony alibite, leaving his cell phone to ping at

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Speaker 2: an overnight cut at a hospital.

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Speaker 5: You know, I don't think it's limited to just doctors.

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Speaker 6: A lot of people try to outsmart their legal system,

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Speaker 6: and it's just it's a system that we've been in.

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Speaker 6: You and I, you know, maybe harder for me to

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Speaker 6: represent lawyers or former prosecutors because they know the system

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Speaker 6: and they're smart. But yeah, someone who's smart but hasn't

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Speaker 6: done this, like you said, someone who's a doctor asking

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Speaker 6: you and you try to do surgery. You might be

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Speaker 6: smart enough to figure it out, but there's nothing that

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Speaker 6: replaces years of experience, years of understanding the system. And

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Speaker 6: that may be his downfall, trying to hew smart the system.

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Speaker 6: Even if he's smarter than everybody, there's something about experience

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Speaker 6: and living it and being in it, and he hasn't

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Speaker 6: lived and he hasn't been in it, and looks like

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Speaker 6: that's going to be his.

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Speaker 2: Downfall, Okay, reminder, Randy Cassler, you're the defense attorney. You're

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Speaker 2: supposed to be trying to fight your way out of

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Speaker 2: this paper bag.

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Speaker 1: He's put himself into. Hey, Dave Mack, I.

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Speaker 2: Understand that you have uncovered an estimation as to how

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Speaker 2: long that cell phone stayed in the hospital cot.

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Speaker 3: We you know, Nancy, In this particular case, police were

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Speaker 3: able to find out that doctor McKee's cell phone was

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Speaker 3: left in a cot at the hospital for fourteen hours.

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Speaker 3: Again based on our normal of what we do with

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Speaker 3: our boats.

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Speaker 2: Okay, wait a minute, Wait a minute. Okay, Kessler, did

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Speaker 2: you hear that out smarting law enforcement, he left his

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Speaker 2: cell phone in his cot, his overnight cot at the

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Speaker 2: hospital for fourteen hours. Way key, Way keep mc key's

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Speaker 2: time to get up fourteen hours.

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Speaker 5: Doctors work very hard, Nancy, doctors.

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Speaker 6: You know, we all know the stories about residency, and

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Speaker 6: you're spending three days of wide wake. Mistakes happen, you

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Speaker 6: know what, Sometimes there are things more important than retrieving

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Speaker 6: your cell phone. He might have had all the things

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Speaker 6: to do, though a lot of explanations. The phone might

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Speaker 6: have been broken, or he might have thought it was broken.

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Speaker 6: There are a thousand reasons, But you leave your cell

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Speaker 6: phone at the hospital on.

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Speaker 1: Ho wait put him up? Did you just say his

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Speaker 1: cell phone may have been broken? Who knows? Was he

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Speaker 1: just say his cell phone may have been broken.

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Speaker 6: It could have glitched. He could have thought it doesn't work.

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Speaker 6: He could have had other things to do. Nancy, you're

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Speaker 6: not guilty of murder because you leave your cell phone

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Speaker 6: behind for half a day, half a day.

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Speaker 1: I like the way you said, I'm going to use

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Speaker 1: that an opening statement. Half a day. I had thought

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Speaker 1: about it like that.

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Speaker 2: Kessler a whole half a day as he is arranging

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Speaker 2: his alibi busted. Okay, let me go back to Dave

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Speaker 2: mac Annulena Mandenburg.

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Speaker 1: Dave Matt you first, now, how did this happen?

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Speaker 2: Because I know he immediately blanketed himself in the fifth Amendment,

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Speaker 2: which is of course the right to remain silent. You know,

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Speaker 2: I've seen Dave mac and I think we saw some

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Speaker 2: of these at Crime Can last year. Defense attorney's business

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Speaker 2: cards and it's got their name and their address and

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Speaker 2: their email address and their phone number on the front

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Speaker 2: and on the bat it says, don't say a word.

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Speaker 2: Number one, use your phone call number two to call

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Speaker 2: your lawyer, not your mommy, your lawyer. Three, don't say

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Speaker 2: a word. Four, don't say a word. So how is

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Speaker 2: it that McKee said a word? Yet oh so evoked

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Speaker 2: his Fifth Amendment privilege.

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Speaker 3: Any questions that were asked of McKee happened before they

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Speaker 3: put the cuffs on him, before he's getting his chicken sandwich.

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Speaker 3: So think about it, Nancy. As police begin an investigation,

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Speaker 3: the first call is, hey, where were you? You know

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Speaker 3: your ex wife is dead and we need to know

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Speaker 3: where were you during this time. We know you didn't

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Speaker 3: do it, but you know, we got to have it.

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Speaker 3: And so that's where he immediately blurted, apparently, And that's

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Speaker 3: where it starts, Nancy. He already locked himself in and

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Speaker 3: again his phone being left in a cot for fourteen

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Speaker 3: hours kind of fits into the rest of the premeditation

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Speaker 3: of this case.

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Speaker 2: You know, speaking of pre meditation, I want to throw

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Speaker 2: this to Joseph Scott Morgan, not only blood spatter expert,

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Speaker 2: but forensics professor at Jacksonville State University, which has an

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Speaker 2: incredible criminal procedure program.

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Speaker 1: Author of Blood Beneath.

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Speaker 2: My Fate on Amazon and star of a hit series Bodybags.

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Speaker 2: At Joe Scott Morgan, Joe Scott, you have investigated I

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Speaker 2: believe ten thousand or so death scenes of all sorts

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Speaker 2: of deaths. It could be on natural causes, heart attack,

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Speaker 2: it could be accident, it could be suicide, it could

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Speaker 2: be unexplained, and of course homicide my specialty.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk just for a moment.

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Speaker 2: Jumping off with Dave mac and Yolanda Mandenburg had told

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Speaker 2: us premeditation. Jackie had a great idea.

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Speaker 1: He didn't need.

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Speaker 2: His GPS on the phone because he had driven that

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Speaker 2: route so many times between his home, his expensive high

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Speaker 2: rise in Lincoln Park to his ex wife, Monique Teppi's home.

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Speaker 2: Can you imagine he didn't need directions He knew exactly

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Speaker 2: how to get there.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, he did.

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Speaker 7: And here's one interesting thing, Nancy, this whole scenario is

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Speaker 7: kind of flipped on its head compared to some of

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Speaker 7: the other cases that we cover. You think about electronic breadcrumbs, right,

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Speaker 7: how many cases have we covered where you have a

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Speaker 7: phone that's traveling in tandem with an alleged perpetrator going

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Speaker 7: to one location. If you think about this, was he

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Speaker 7: attempting to leave this phone behind to put people.

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Speaker 5: Off the scent?

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Speaker 7: Because you know you're talking about premeditation, right, I'm just

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Speaker 7: feeding right back into what you're saying. Had he seen

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Speaker 7: you talked about true crime, had he seen enough to know? Okay,

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Speaker 7: probably ought not take the phone with me so that

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Speaker 7: it puts me immediately outside the home. But yeah, if

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Speaker 7: there had been, if there is a stalker element into this,

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Speaker 7: he's going to know this like the back of his hand, Nancy.

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Speaker 7: He's going to know maybe all the nuances of that home,

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Speaker 7: will certainly know the location points of entry. He's going

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Speaker 7: to know about the surrounding windows, low windows, how do

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Speaker 7: I get into a particular area in the house, how

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Speaker 7: many people are there? And then you can drive down

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Speaker 7: the road without your phone. I think that we're under

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Speaker 7: the impression nowadays that we have to have have it

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Speaker 7: with us, that we have to be tethered to it,

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Speaker 7: and that ain't the case. So I find this fascinating,

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Speaker 7: this aspect that and thought about it till you had

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Speaker 7: mentioned it. It is fascinating that he might lead this

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Speaker 7: alone or leave it back at the sleep room there.

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Speaker 7: You know where most doctors take call from. If you're

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Speaker 7: on call, you have a room that's set aside for

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Speaker 7: you in the hospital and you'll sleep there. But you

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Speaker 7: know the damning part to this, Nancy, is that as

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Speaker 7: a vascular surgeon, let that sink in. That's a critical job.

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Speaker 7: If you are absent your phone, you can wind up

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Speaker 7: putting patients at risk.

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Speaker 5: Nancy.

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Speaker 2: You know another thing, Joscott Morgan is even when I

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Speaker 2: know the route, many times I will put on ways

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Speaker 2: just to see is there traffic? Is there slow down?

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Speaker 2: Has there been an accident? Should I go a different way?

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Speaker 2: But he didn't need that. According to police, he was

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Speaker 2: driving through the night to get there. But what you're

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Speaker 2: saying very very probative. And I want to go to

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Speaker 2: John doctor John Delatory, joining US licensed psychologist mediator specializing

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Speaker 2: in forensic psychology. Got a question for you, doctor Delatory.

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Speaker 2: I've just been thinking about this theory. He didn't need

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Speaker 2: his phone because he had driven the route to his

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Speaker 2: ex wife's home with her husband and two children many

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Speaker 2: many times before. This was about a four hour drive ish.

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Speaker 1: Why would he not take his phone?

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Speaker 2: Clearly he left it there in the overnight cot to

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Speaker 2: create an alibi.

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Speaker 8: No, absolutely, I mean when you think about it, and

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Speaker 8: I know Joseph Scott Morgan just talked about you know

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Speaker 8: we don't need to be tethered to the phone, but

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Speaker 8: there's an inherent behavioral chain that nowadays, we're so used

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Speaker 8: to just having it on us that it's instinctive for

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Speaker 8: us to just grab it. We may not need it,

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Speaker 8: but we certainly just have it on us, and we

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Speaker 8: feel kind of naked when we don't. So what that

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Speaker 8: tells me is that he felt more inclined to engage

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Speaker 8: in the behaviors that he wanted to engage in, such

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Speaker 8: as making this drive, that it was so overwhelming, it

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Speaker 8: was so compulsive that any other behavior chain, which includes

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Speaker 8: grabbing your phone and having everything else that you need

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Speaker 8: to make the drive, having any of that stuff kind

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Speaker 8: of was pushed to the side. So this is a

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Speaker 8: singular goal. That's the only thing that's driving this individual.

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Speaker 8: To include not having his phone just in case he

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Speaker 8: gets on call, just in case he needs to perform surgery,

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Speaker 8: all of that stuff is pushed to the side so

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Speaker 8: he can complete one particular goal, and in this instance,

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Speaker 8: it's making.

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Speaker 2: That drive to his ex wives place and corroborating this,

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Speaker 2: which would be a great for the state to argue

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Speaker 2: in opening statements. Let's see the video of who we

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Speaker 2: believe to be the monster surgeon doctor Michael McKee, skulking

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Speaker 2: along in that private alley there you go right there.

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Speaker 2: See that's a private alley, Joe Scott Morgan for people.

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Speaker 1: That live on that street.

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Speaker 2: See it's the back of the tepee's home and they

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Speaker 2: park there and walk in through a back door and

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Speaker 2: then across that alley or the next street over their

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Speaker 2: backyard where they park.

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Speaker 1: This is a private alley.

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Speaker 2: Now, who would know about that other than somebody that

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Speaker 2: lived there, other than somebody that knew that route Joe

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Speaker 2: Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, an alleyway is very specific to the geography of

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Speaker 7: the location. And you know, this is kind of a

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Speaker 7: I don't want to say personal space, but it's you

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Speaker 7: would have to have some kind of knowledge of a

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Speaker 7: thoroughfare because you're trying to get from point A to

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Speaker 7: point B. And And also this goes to another point, Nancy,

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Speaker 7: when you think about it, is he attempting to mask

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Speaker 7: his movement relative to this, not, you know, for whatever reason,

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Speaker 7: not thinking that people there might be CCTV on the

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Speaker 7: alley as well. As a matter of fact, I got

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Speaker 7: to tell you something, if you're trying to if you're

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Speaker 7: trying to keep yourself safe, and this is a blind area.

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Speaker 7: I would want CCTV back there all the much more

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Speaker 7: so because that's where a perpetrator might come in to

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Speaker 7: burglarize your home or do any other kind of nasty

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Speaker 7: business to you and your family. I can't imagine that

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Speaker 7: he would not be aware of this, or at least

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Speaker 7: have some inkling. He could be on videotape because he's

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Speaker 7: just therapy.

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Speaker 1: Did you see that, Joe Scott? Yep, did you see

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Speaker 1: that last photo?

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Speaker 2: This is the photo where you see allegedly McKee walking

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Speaker 2: along around three four am in the morning when he's

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Speaker 2: supposed to be sleeping overnight back at his hospital.

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Speaker 1: But then there was the.

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Speaker 2: Other shot and look at that that there's nobody there

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Speaker 2: but trash cans. That's the bad side where we believe

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Speaker 2: he was walking.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, and being a native New Orleanian in our homes

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Speaker 7: down there because the spaces are so tight and the

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Speaker 7: truck will drive back there. This is not an area

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Speaker 7: you're going to go hang out in Okay because it's

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Speaker 7: generally populated.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's not the main thoroughfare.

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Speaker 2: I lived on an alley near the courthouse forever when

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Speaker 2: I was prosecuting guys. Another issue has reared its ugly head.

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Speaker 2: Other than the defendant, the surgeon, vascular surgeon Michael McKee

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Speaker 2: boarding out an alibi before invoking his right to remain silent. Hey, Kessler,

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you know this or not, but

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Speaker 2: he has been put in a billion b as In Brother,

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Speaker 2: billion dollar facility that is focused on healing with comfy mattresses,

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Speaker 2: natural light, and a Gatorade on demand station.

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Speaker 1: I'll let you that.

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Speaker 2: I don't have any of that, but oh, there you go.

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Speaker 2: I want to live there? Are they selling condos there?

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Speaker 2: But Kessler, I've just been corrected. It wasn't a four

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Speaker 2: hour drive. It was nearly a seven hour drive that

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Speaker 2: he departed upon without any directions Kessler seven hours. Clearly

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Speaker 2: he left the phone behind to create an alibi, just

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Speaker 2: like Brian Coberger turned off his phone while he committed

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Speaker 2: the murders, which he pled to people online. Quit telling

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Speaker 2: me he's innocent. He pled guilty. Brian Coberger did it?

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Speaker 1: Accept it? So same thing here, just like.

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Speaker 2: Morephew Barry Morphew allegedly turned off his cell phone at

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Speaker 2: one juncture, then turned it back on. It's when you

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Speaker 2: have your cell phone on constantly, then you turn it

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Speaker 2: off at the time of the murders, then you turn

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Speaker 2: it back on. Really, that looks even worse. So it's

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Speaker 2: seven hours, seven hour drive Kessler. How long was.

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Speaker 1: His phone broken? Did he call T mobile and ask

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Speaker 1: for help?

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Speaker 5: So he turned his cell phone off?

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Speaker 6: Maybe he didn't want anyone to bother Maybe he knew

321
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Speaker 6: he was going to do something, he was going to

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Speaker 6: surveil him. And then you got an individual walking through

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Speaker 6: an alley that you are sure is him, and you're

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Speaker 6: guilty of murder because you walked.

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Speaker 5: In an alley in the middle of the night.

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Speaker 6: And even if it's him, there's so many questions here,

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Speaker 6: so many ways for the defense to pick this apart.

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Speaker 5: Oh that's him. I can identify the mole on his cheek. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: you see every little detail about him. I'm sure that's

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Speaker 5: him right there walking.

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Speaker 6: Couldn't be anybody else of the three hundred million Americans

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Speaker 6: in this country that walk around and are in the streets.

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Speaker 6: You know, I think he got a whole lot of

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Speaker 6: nothing so far. The fact that they got in, you know,

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Speaker 6: lying about stuff. There could be one hundred reasons why

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Speaker 6: he left his cell phone. There could be one hundred

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Speaker 6: reasons why he didn't use GPS. You know what, I

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Speaker 6: need more than that. And he's got a good lawyer now,

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Speaker 6: so I'm looking forward to seeing this defense.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Kelseer, It's not just it's not just identifying him

341
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Speaker 2: walking along with his pool to the right.

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Speaker 1: Every time you take a step.

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Speaker 2: That person walking, that person walking down the alley was

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Speaker 2: followed from doorbell cams and other surveillance straight to a

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Speaker 2: car belonging to doctor McKee.

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Speaker 1: So it's not just the right mole, the mole on

347
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Speaker 1: his right cheek that you brought up.

348
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Speaker 2: It's everything. Hey, I want you to look at a photo.

349
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Speaker 2: This is more food for thought. I want you to

350
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Speaker 2: look at doctor McKees before shot. This is him on

351
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Speaker 2: his dating app compared to him in court. There he

352
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Speaker 2: is on the dating app. Now look at this shot

353
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Speaker 2: of him in court.

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Speaker 1: Kessler.

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Speaker 2: There has been rampant allegations that he's totally steroided up.

356
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Speaker 2: Do you see them back and forth and before and

357
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Speaker 2: after what happened.

358
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Speaker 6: So if he took steroids, if he worked out, if

359
00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:11,000
Speaker 6: he ate a lot of food, if he grew his

360
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:12,760
Speaker 6: beard out, if he didn't shave, You know, most people

361
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,879
Speaker 6: don't really manicure themselves for their mugshot and for the

362
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,400
Speaker 6: jailous photo for when they're getting You know, he's had

363
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Speaker 6: a lot going on in his life.

364
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Speaker 5: I don't know why he looks different. He's older.

365
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,560
Speaker 1: Can I say, Yester the place work out? This is

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Speaker 1: not I think I can hear that.

367
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Speaker 2: But did you actually say he's got a lot going on?

368
00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:30,160
Speaker 2: Did you just say that?

369
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Speaker 6: Obviously he's got a lot going on. You know, he's

370
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Speaker 6: a busy surgeon. He's being accused of a crime. I

371
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Speaker 6: mean you're going to convic some money because they look different,

372
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:41,919
Speaker 6: because they are now bigger, because they've got.

373
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Speaker 5: More muscle or more fat, or more hair on their face.

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Speaker 5: I mean, what is the basis for you said?

375
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Speaker 1: I don't know how you get muscles in your head

376
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Speaker 1: and your face. Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

377
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Speaker 2: I want you Kesseler as you're trying to bail him out.

378
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:11,639
Speaker 2: I want you to hear minate Teppi's wedding vows and

379
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Speaker 2: I think I know who she's talking about when she

380
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Speaker 2: describes a waterfall of tears.

381
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Speaker 9: From day one, I knew you were something special.

382
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:24,280
Speaker 5: I had quite a journey to get to you.

383
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:30,160
Speaker 9: Countless bad bumble, dates of wrong relationships and waterfalls of tears.

384
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Speaker 5: But it was worth every cringing second because.

385
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Speaker 8: It led me to you.

386
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Speaker 9: Throughout all of this, I knew that God was guiding

387
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Speaker 9: me to my person and that when I met him

388
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Speaker 9: it would be the most magical thing ever.

389
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Speaker 5: And boy, is that an understatement.

390
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 9: I finally found my lobster and it honestly couldn't be

391
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Speaker 9: a person with a more beautiful heart.

392
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Speaker 5: I will love you forever and I'm so lucky to

393
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Speaker 5: be missus.

394
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Speaker 1: To the firearm.

395
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Speaker 3: It appears he planned more of what to do rather

396
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Speaker 3: than the aftermath of it.

397
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Speaker 7: When you purchase a suppressor, you have to be registered

398
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 7: with the ATF, unless purchased on the black market or

399
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:15,560
Speaker 7: something that he build.

400
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:20,399
Speaker 2: I can't wait to get a hold of his digital footprint,

401
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 2: and I.

402
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Speaker 1: Stand by that.

403
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 2: I cannot wait to get ahold of his digital footprint

404
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,159
Speaker 2: and find out what websites he was on. What was

405
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,399
Speaker 2: he saying about himself? How did this guy get women?

406
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:34,360
Speaker 2: And speaking of getting women, guess what his ex girlfriend,

407
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,399
Speaker 2: who I believe is a doctor herself, is speaking out.

408
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 2: Doctor Michael McKee turned murder defendant, ex girlfriend speaks.

409
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Speaker 1: Let's listen he.

410
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 10: Did tell me a little bit about his divorce at

411
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 10: the time. So, and again I want to preface this

412
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:52,879
Speaker 10: with this is his side of the story and what

413
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:54,919
Speaker 10: he spoke to me. This is not truth. This is

414
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,879
Speaker 10: obviously very biased. But what he told me was that

415
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 10: one that he came home from residency and Monique had

416
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 10: the Initially she took everything. She left the house completely

417
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 10: empty and also took their dogs. He was just left

418
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Speaker 10: very stunned because he didn't see this coming and he

419
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Speaker 10: was like completely devastated.

420
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Speaker 1: Hmm.

421
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 2: This is a woman who I believe to be a

422
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:19,199
Speaker 2: medical doctor that says she is McKee's ex girlfriend. She

423
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 2: seems reliable and credible, and in the moment, you're going

424
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,880
Speaker 2: to see photos of her with McKee and her family.

425
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 1: But I want to analyze what we just heard.

426
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 2: Okay, straight out to doctor John DELATORI, licensed psychologist specializing

427
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:39,160
Speaker 2: in forensic psychology. Doctor Delatory, I'm hearing he did tell

428
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 2: me a little bit about his divorce at the time.

429
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 2: Don't people know, the people that are on the dating market,

430
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 2: nobody wants to hear about their bad excess.

431
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 1: Why it's like that, Yeah.

432
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 8: So I think you know at some point in this

433
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,199
Speaker 8: whatever this relationship was it became, you know, kind of

434
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 8: obvious that uh, all of the past baggage needed to

435
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 8: be brought up for whatever reason. Maybe he was already triggered.

436
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,440
Speaker 8: Maybe Michael McKee was already triggered to kind of say

437
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 8: all of this stuff. But it isn't really something that

438
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 8: you say at the beginning. So maybe they had already

439
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 8: had somewhat of an intimate relationship meeting they could speak

440
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 8: to one another about this. But she's correct, and that

441
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,880
Speaker 8: she's only getting one half of the side of the story.

442
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:25,879
Speaker 8: The other half of the side of the story is

443
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,640
Speaker 8: certainly that he could have not been a very good

444
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 8: guy to his ex wife and that's why his ex

445
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 8: wife decided to take everything in the dog and leave.

446
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 2: Now interesting right here to Elena Mandenberg joining us investigative

447
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 2: reporter with the Mirror and the Irish Star and the Express.

448
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 2: My reading of the divorce papers was that they had

449
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 2: been living separately for some time.

450
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,399
Speaker 1: Is that correct? Yes?

451
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 4: And the divorce papers site that they were incompatible, So

452
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 4: if they're there were any issues, she never went to

453
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 4: the police. All we have is rumors to friends, conversations

454
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,360
Speaker 4: she had with friends about his personality and his behavior.

455
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 2: Okay, So Dave Mack Crime Stories investigator Port, you know

456
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 2: where I'm going with this. If they were already separated,

457
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 2: living in two different households, all right, And he says

458
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:25,479
Speaker 2: he came home and everything was cleaned out. That sounds

459
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 2: like a lie because she would have had to drive

460
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 2: several hours and take his stuff. She already had her

461
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 2: stuff in her place, based on what was said in

462
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 2: the divorce papers.

463
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's just being the victim selling a story that's

464
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 3: totally not true. He tried to separate her from her

465
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 3: family right away, which is what controlling men do, because

466
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 3: she was very, very close to her family, as evidenced

467
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 3: by all of the things we have seen over the

468
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 3: last couple of weeks from the family and extended family.

469
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 3: And the first thing he does that McKee does, he

470
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 3: moves her way to Virginia, and which again kind of

471
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,959
Speaker 3: goes back to the beginning. They were only married seven months, Nancy,

472
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 3: and they began they separated, and I think, just based

473
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 3: on the way divorce rules work, stayed to stay. That's

474
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 3: why I took you a year. I think it would

475
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 3: have been a divorce lot quicker had they been able to.

476
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,120
Speaker 3: But she wasn't living with him like that.

477
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:18,919
Speaker 1: You know.

478
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 2: Another thing I noticed in the divorce papers is that

479
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 2: nothing was mentioned about getting furniture back or splitting household

480
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 2: goods at all. Nothing about the dog arguing over the

481
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,360
Speaker 2: pots and pans. Randy Kessler, this is your Billywick. If

482
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 2: this is true what he tried to feed his ex

483
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 2: girlfriend that oh I came home and all this stuff

484
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 2: was gone and the dog was gone. He didn't try

485
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,959
Speaker 2: to get any of that back in the divorce papers.

486
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I believe it was you that told me

487
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 2: one day that people will kill each other over the

488
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 2: pots and pans. But he didn't have any of that

489
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 2: in the divorce papers. He didn't man did none of that.

490
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 2: He did not ask for the dog, or the pots

491
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 2: and pants, or the sofa, or the plant, or the

492
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 2: TV or the Nintendo switch, none of that, which makes

493
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,199
Speaker 2: me think he's lying to this ex girlfriend.

494
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 6: There's no way to decide how people feel based on

495
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 6: looking at the divorce papers.

496
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 5: Number one, he was probably telling you the ex girlfriend.

497
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 6: When the relationship ended, she just left and took everything

498
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 6: and took the dog, not the day of the divorce,

499
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 6: not when she filed for divorce, relationships end a lot

500
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 6: sooner than when people come to see me and hire

501
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 6: me to file for divorce. The relationship has usually been

502
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 6: over for a while. Number two, the dogs that have

503
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 6: been gone for a long time. Number three. Apparently reading

504
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 6: the divorce papers, he got a lot right. She basically

505
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 6: wanted out. That's clear. She didn't have to put in

506
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 6: there that he was violent. She just said, the marriage

507
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 6: is over. That's all you need to play and she

508
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 6: let him.

509
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:46,640
Speaker 1: You were so right about that.

510
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 2: You were so right about that because he even got

511
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 2: the money back for the engagement ring and the wedding man.

512
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: Now there's a classy dude.

513
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 6: Hey, you know, the bottom line is somebody wants out

514
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 6: and somebody doesn't. And it sounds like she wanted out

515
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 6: and he didn't want.

516
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 5: Out as much.

517
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 6: So she said, you know, what what will it take

518
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 6: to end this right now? And he apparently said, this

519
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 6: is what it's going to take, and they reached an agreement.

520
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 6: They got it done. Why nobody knows. You can speculate

521
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 6: all day long.

522
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: Man, Look at the before and after.

523
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 2: Guys, Hey, that shot you just showed New York Control Room,

524
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,719
Speaker 2: the one just before that. Look at him there, and

525
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 2: look at him in his most recent bookend. This is

526
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 2: where allegation is a steroids. Oh, somebody has a rash

527
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 2: on their neck.

528
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: Allegations of steroid use.

529
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 2: Okay, I'll get ooh, there you go, and that is

530
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 2: not just gaining weight. Wait, his neck is as big

531
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 2: as a Virginia ham. That is either working out day

532
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 2: in and day out or steroids. Okay, I'll get to

533
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 2: the steroids in a moment. Not to John Delatory, but

534
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 2: I want to go back to the ex girlfriend.

535
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 1: Look at her. Do you believe her? Because I find

536
00:28:58,560 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: her very credible.

537
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 10: Listen, he didn't really talk about his parents. He did

538
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 10: tell me he was adopted by an older couple and

539
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,719
Speaker 10: he just like they were good parents, but he just

540
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 10: never talked about them. He never talked to them. I

541
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 10: would call my mom like every day, we would. We

542
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 10: have a great relationship. But he was just much more reserved.

543
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 10: He never really When I asked him more, he just

544
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 10: didn't really want to talk about it. So I kind

545
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 10: of left it at that. This is him, This is

546
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 10: a celebrating New Year's with a bunch of my friends

547
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 10: and family, and this is me right here, and that's him,

548
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 10: which is crazy.

549
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: Okay, So if she's lying.

550
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 2: She's gone to great links to photoshop pictures which looked

551
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 2: very real to me. But that said doctor John Delatory,

552
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 2: that's a blaring, blinking, flashing knee on light a warning.

553
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:44,719
Speaker 1: That's a red flag.

554
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: He never talked about his parents. He never talked to

555
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 2: his parents. When I would bring them up, he didn't

556
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,959
Speaker 2: want to talk about it. You know, that's something I

557
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 2: look at. How does the guy treat his mother?

558
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 8: Yeah, no, it is because the relationships that you have

559
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 8: with your parents are often going to be the prototypes

560
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 8: for the relationships that you have with other people, right,

561
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 8: Because if you have these positive and secure attachments with

562
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 8: your parents, you can assume that other people are going

563
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 8: to have those kinds of attachments, so you can have

564
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 8: those kinds of attachments with them. And I think it

565
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 8: becomes a red flag when it becomes there's no clear

566
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 8: reason as to why you would have this disconnect, as

567
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 8: to why you would go no contact with your parents.

568
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 8: People go no contact for all different kinds of reasons.

569
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 8: But if he's willing to say and put himself out

570
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 8: there to say that my ex wife took all my

571
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 8: stuff and the dog, then why is he kind of

572
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 8: obfuscating why he's no longer having any contact with his parents.

573
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 8: So as the ex girlfriend, you start seeing these little patterns.

574
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 8: You start seeing these little flags come up and being

575
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 8: raised as to who exactly am I spending my time with,

576
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 8: Who exactly is this person and what is he capable

577
00:30:59,360 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 8: of doing?

578
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 1: Well?

579
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 2: I mean, Kessler, and all of your divorce clients that

580
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 2: you've dealt with over the years, plus all your criminal

581
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 2: defense you've represented, it's trying to pile up. I mean,

582
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 2: I could believe, okay, it's the ex wife's fault, but

583
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 2: now there's no contact with the parents. He doesn't want

584
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 2: to talk about them, he's not in touch with him,

585
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 2: So now it's the mom and the dad and the

586
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 2: ex wife. I know it's him, He's the problem. He's

587
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 2: the only common denominator. Do you ever have clients like that, where, oh,

588
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 2: she did this, and she did that, and my teenage

589
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 2: daughter won't speak to me, and my son hates me,

590
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 2: blob pretty soon, Do you ever get it it's you,

591
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 2: not them?

592
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean we sort of have that old joke

593
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 6: that you know, sometimes it's the person who says, I'm

594
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 6: only in jail because you called the police. Everything's the

595
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 6: other person's faulting. This is a little more complicated, right.

596
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 6: Obviously a successful guy, he's a very accomplished surgeon. He's

597
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 6: made it through difficult studies, difficult schools, difficult jobs. So

598
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 6: it's even harder for us to get our head around

599
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 6: the fact that he might be totally off certing. You know,

600
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 6: he's going to have a lot of defense to be

601
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 6: able to say, look, you can't hold it together and

602
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 6: be a great surgeon without some sort of stability, some

603
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 6: sort of common sense, some sort of knowledge.

604
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 5: It makes the case much more interesting. Yes, we definitely

605
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 5: have people of it.

606
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 2: I guess you've heard of Doctor Jekyll and mister Hyde. Right, Hey,

607
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 2: one boy, I guess you got to hear this from

608
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 2: the ex girlfriends. Hey, by the way, and I don't

609
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 2: blame her, has now deleted her TikTok.

610
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: She was at TikTok at s rummy, listen.

611
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 10: He also has been to my family home. That's him

612
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 10: right there. This is me and my family members. But

613
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 10: it's honestly shocking, and I'm grateful that the Lord protected

614
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 10: me from moving forward in that relationship. The reason why

615
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 10: it ended was I honestly wasn't feeling it. I don't

616
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 10: mean to be disrespectful, but he was just kind of

617
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 10: boring and he was very much like kind of surface level.

618
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 10: There was no like I couldn't go deep with him.

619
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 10: And yeah, that's why I couldn't form like a deep

620
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 10: connection with him because of that, I think in a

621
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 10: wall up where he just like could not go deep

622
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 10: with any conversations. Really, so that's why it ended.

623
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 2: Doctor Delatory, doctor John Delatory joining us psychological consultant to

624
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,959
Speaker 2: Project Absence, which is a non profit searching for missing people.

625
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 2: You can find him on Twitter, install and TikTok at

626
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 2: doctor John Delatory.

627
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: What does that mean? Uh?

628
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 2: She says he had a wall up, they couldn't connect.

629
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: How does that fit in with your observations.

630
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:45,719
Speaker 8: Here's the thing that I think I need to know

631
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 8: before I can make a definitive decision. What was his

632
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 8: bedside manner? We're in a unique position where we can

633
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 8: see how someone interacts with other people on a regular basis,

634
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 8: because it is certainly possible that doctor McKee has no

635
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 8: bedside manner, that he views people as simply objects that

636
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 8: he either has to fix or the other has to control.

637
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,800
Speaker 8: And so it's certainly possible that he has no depth,

638
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,919
Speaker 8: because there is no depth to him, that he has

639
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 8: no real ability to connect to other people, and because

640
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 8: he views them as just simple broken things that he

641
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 8: knows how to fix, or things that he knows how

642
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 8: to break over time, that there's nothing else there. And

643
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 8: this ex girlfriend was able to pick up on that

644
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 8: and extricate herself from this relationship. But the more we

645
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 8: know about what his bedside manner is, the more we

646
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 8: can tell whether or not this was an under an

647
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 8: underlying psychopath or sociopath, you know.

648
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: Doctor John Delatory.

649
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,760
Speaker 2: I've never dilved into it in front of a jury

650
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 2: because it was irrelevant under the law, but I've studied

651
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 2: it when I was prosecuting killers.

652
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: And since the.

653
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 2: Affect of a serial killer, the affect of a killer,

654
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 2: knows what the ex girlfriend says fit into the profile

655
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 2: of a psychopath.

656
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 8: One of the biggest things that we look at when

657
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 8: it comes to the psychopathy checklist is shallow affect. Now,

658
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 8: by shallow affect, what that means is you can mimic, right,

659
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 8: the psychopath is able to mimic emotions, They're able to

660
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 8: mimic empathy, They're able to kind of demonstrate that just

661
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 8: on a surface level, but you can't connect with them

662
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 8: one human being to the next. Humans are really good

663
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 8: at understanding when they're actually being connected, when they're when

664
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 8: they're actually developing that intimacy. Psychopaths don't have that. And

665
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 8: psychopathy isn't dictated by your by your intelligence. It absolutely

666
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 8: is not. You can be highly intelligent, or you cannot

667
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,720
Speaker 8: be highly intelligent and still be a psychopath. Your job

668
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 8: doesn't here or are those things. A sociopath is similar,

669
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,360
Speaker 8: But a sociopath is looking at the overall kind of

670
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 8: construction of the world around them, the society and communities

671
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 8: that they that are around them, and wants to buck

672
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 8: that system. They want they want to to destroy those

673
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 8: systems that are in place that are holding them down.

674
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 8: The psychopath wants to hurt other people because they think

675
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,959
Speaker 8: that they're more right that that the narcissism is such

676
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 8: that they are above other people, while the sociopathics to

677
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 8: tear down the system as a whole.

678
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 2: The ex girlfriend may be the closest will ever get

679
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 2: to his true nature because there is no way this

680
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 2: guy's taking the stand.

681
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 1: There's nothing good about a silencer.

682
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 5: I love silencers.

683
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 3: That was an additional witness that was saying the owner

684
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,800
Speaker 3: of this silencer is guilty.

685
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 2: Why does this vascular surgeon have a silencer?

686
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 3: Kyd BMS, keep your damn big mouth.

687
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 2: Shut straight out to a special guest joining us, Elena Mandenburg,

688
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 2: investigative news reporter for The Mirror, the Irish Star and

689
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 2: The Express.

690
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: You'll wine again. Thank you for being with us tonight.

691
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,240
Speaker 1: So where is McKee tonight?

692
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 4: He is at the James A. Carton's Correction Center in

693
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 4: Franklin County, Ohio, which is brand new, billion dollars build,

694
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 4: billions of dollars sunk into this project, and honestly mostly

695
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:28,280
Speaker 4: looks like a rehab center.

696
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,320
Speaker 1: For it is a jail and not a prison.

697
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 4: So it is a place people will go and either

698
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,919
Speaker 4: they will see their day in court and be free,

699
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 4: or they will move into the prison system. So if

700
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 4: Mickey is guilty and convicted, he'll he won't be staying

701
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 4: in this nice facility for very long. I have a

702
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 4: feeling it was mostly built to address, you know, the

703
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:58,399
Speaker 4: drug addiction and population in Ohio, and Franklin County does

704
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 4: cycle through, you know, nearly twenty thousand people a year

705
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,919
Speaker 4: operates one of the largest jail systems in the state.

706
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 2: Well, wait a minute, Elena Mandenburg, twenty thousand people. So

707
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 2: does the Hilton, So does the Mandalay, so does the

708
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 2: Waldorf Astoria. Do they have to stay in a place

709
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 2: it looks like it looks like the lobby of one

710
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 2: of those futuristic hotels where there's very spark sparse.

711
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa? Wait? What is that? Go go back? What?

712
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: What are those balls? Doctor Dwayne Hendrix?

713
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 2: What in the hey that looks like the Equinox, the

714
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 2: fancy workout club in New York? What did you see

715
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 2: those balls that you sit on and try to balance

716
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 2: and do exercises on them?

717
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:59,240
Speaker 1: Can I see that picture again? Those life cycles are better?

718
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 1: What book at this?

719
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 5: Well?

720
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 11: Manci, Just like the reporter just mentioned, this is a

721
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 11: new facility. When I served as a ward in the

722
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:14,240
Speaker 11: state of West Virginia, there was a big opioid crisis

723
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 11: there as well, and Ohio was a leading state in

724
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 11: terms of trying to address the opioid addiction. And I

725
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 11: believe this jail was designed to deal with those the

726
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 11: crisis that they have in the state of Ohio. You know,

727
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 11: nearly eighty thousand out of deaths a year out of

728
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 11: one hundred thousand opioid deaths. Eighty percent of those deaths

729
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 11: are related to opioid addiction. I know you mentioned something

730
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 11: about gatorade stations as well, and looking into that, the

731
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 11: gatorade stations and electro likes are there to address the

732
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 11: for inmates that are withdrawing from opioid addiction. So that

733
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 11: is why, because ultimately I had never heard of that before.

734
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 11: But ultimately, this is why they designed this facility in

735
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 11: the manner that they did, because they're trying to address

736
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 11: the issue.

737
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: What's next? Are they going to drop the Starbucks in there?

738
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 5: No, they're not going to draw Starbucks there. No, they're not.

739
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 2: No, no extra squirt of sugar free vanilla.

740
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: What's next? Listen.

741
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 12: McKee arrived from Ohio and was booked into the Franklin

742
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 12: County Jail the James A. Karnes Correction Center. At his arrangement,

743
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 12: McKee pleaded not guilty and waived a request for bond.

744
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 12: McKee will remain in Carnes Correction Center until his attorney

745
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,800
Speaker 12: seeks bail or the case goes to trial.

746
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 13: The new jail has a less institutional feel on purpose,

747
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 13: as the Sheriff's office excited about biophilic design principles using

748
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 13: high ceilings, murals of mountains and ocean scenes, and maximum

749
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 13: natural light. Pods are located on the second floor with

750
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 13: better access to the natural light via skylights.

751
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 14: Design features include use of wood graining, requiring use of

752
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,879
Speaker 14: headphones when watching, and the presidence of clocks. Extra care

753
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 14: spent on mattresses to help inmates abuse putting clocks in

754
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 14: the jail, making things seem more normal, less institutional.

755
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 2: Okay, Doctor Dwayne Hendrix is with us, Just so you

756
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 2: know why he's joining us tonight. Former warden MDC. Brooklyn

757
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 2: Warden Sheridan, Oregon Senior Warden, US Department of Justice, Federal

758
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 2: Bureau Prisons, Founder, president of a New Dalyite Foundation, author

759
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 2: of who Are You See It?

760
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 1: Say It? Seize It? Okay, doctor Hendrix, thank you for

761
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: being with us.

762
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 2: I'd like you to peruse these shots inside the carnes

763
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 2: Ci Correctional Institute. Now, they have a biophilic design, doctor Hendrix,

764
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:55,280
Speaker 2: which incorporates natural materials, light, vegetation, organic forms into the

765
00:41:55,320 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 2: built environment. They are trying to foster a connection with nature,

766
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 2: enhance human.

767
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 1: Will, being, health, and productivity.

768
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 2: Okay, doctor Dwayne Hendrix, why do I want him closer

769
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 2: to nature?

770
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 5: Well, I mean he is in.

771
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 11: The jail allegedly for committing these murders, so that he's

772
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 11: there for punished as punishment. But while you're incarcerated, you're

773
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 11: not there to be punished further. And the aesthetics of

774
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 11: this facility is there to create again in environment.

775
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 2: Wait wait wait wait wait what you're not incarcerated to

776
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 2: be punished.

777
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:36,320
Speaker 5: What I said as punishment?

778
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 1: Did you say that he did? Okay? What?

779
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 11: Yes, he's there as punishment or not for further punishment.

780
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 11: And I'll also say the aesthetics of this facility is

781
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 11: not just for those inmates, but they're also for the

782
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 11: staff as well, because these are the correctional environment is

783
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:54,720
Speaker 11: not something.

784
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 1: That the staff.

785
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 2: The staff they can go home in front of their

786
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,399
Speaker 2: wide scream big screen TV and sitting their pit group.

787
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 1: That's a jail.

788
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 11: Those staff are spending sixteen hours and a lot more

789
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 11: than forty hours a week in those environments and having.

790
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 2: Give them an awesome staff lounge. You're right, I'd be

791
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 2: mad if they didn't. But can I ask you why

792
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 2: does a guy charge with double murder shooting people dead

793
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 2: in their beds with their children in the next room

794
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 2: screaming their heads off. Have natural materials utilizing wood, stone, bratan, bamboo,

795
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 2: terra cotta to create tactile connections in nature, maximizing daylight

796
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 2: through large windows skylights.

797
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: I don't know.

798
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 11: I'm flummings because you're trying to reduce You're trying to

799
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 11: reduce violence.

800
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 5: You're trying to reduce violence.

801
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 11: You're trying to reduce the amount of mental the mental

802
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 11: toll that it takes on those individuals that are incarcerated,

803
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 11: as well as the staff that work these environments. That

804
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 11: is the reason why that these new designs of a

805
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 11: facility like this, and it's for rehabilitative purposes because eighty

806
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 11: percent of people that go to prison will or jail

807
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 11: will be released back into our communities and after spending

808
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 11: several years in prison, you want your neighbors to come

809
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:23,879
Speaker 11: back in a better in somewhat better condition mentally.

810
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace Scott Morgan.

811
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 2: Please help me because I feel like I'm in the

812
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 2: crazy house right now.

813
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,800
Speaker 1: Do you hear Hendrix? Do I respect it? Up until

814
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 1: this moment?

815
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:53,240
Speaker 2: Biophilic design connection with nature, Maximum Natural Light Company mattresses.

816
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 7: What it's a forecross from the Eastern State Penitentiary in Pennsylvan,

817
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 7: which I've visited many years ago, which was one of

818
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 7: the first places where people were incarcerated. And yeah, this

819
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:11,320
Speaker 7: does look more like a treatment facility than it does

820
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 7: a place for long term correction. And again, this is

821
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 7: a county facility, Nancy. This is merely a holding or

822
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:22,359
Speaker 7: stopping point.

823
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 1: Can I say the urinal please?

824
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 2: You know, Joe Scott, there is a phenomena where men

825
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 2: have the performance anxiety if they have to urinate with

826
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 2: someone watching them, they just can't do it.

827
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 1: I'm sure I shrink would know the correct name. But

828
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 1: there you go. There's a little privacy wall so they

829
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 1: can t t.

830
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 5: Yeah.

831
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 7: Well again, back to functionality here, Nancy. How long is

832
00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:59,320
Speaker 7: this guy going to be here. He's going to go

833
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 7: to trial. He's going to wind up some in a

834
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 7: location that'll be far from this as far as the

835
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 7: esthetic goes, He's going to wind up in Ohio State

836
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 7: Penitentiary if he goes to trial and he's convicted. And

837
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 7: that's a far cry from what you're seeing here.

838
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 2: So doctor Dwayne Hendrix, I'm sure you're happy that doctor

839
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 2: Michael McKee charged with double murder gunning to people down

840
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 2: in their beds and keeping the gun so he can

841
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,359
Speaker 2: relive the terror he saw on.

842
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: Maniq's face as he towered over their bed that night.

843
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 2: You're happy he has plenty of space to roam around

844
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 2: in this billion dollar facility. He's got a lot more

845
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 2: space than Spencer and Menique have. They're in a coffin now.

846
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 11: No, I'm not happy that he's in a better space because,

847
00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 11: trust me, if he's convicted, you know, like morning to say,

848
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 11: he is stot morning to say, he is going to

849
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 11: go to a state penitentiary and spend the rest of

850
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 11: his life behind bars, and he's going to have to

851
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 11: channel that mister Hyde character because he won't be able

852
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 11: to manipulate his way through the things that he's thought

853
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 11: he has done throughout his life to get to the

854
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 11: point where he is now. So he's going to be

855
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 11: more mister Hyde than mister Jekyll in a in a

856
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 11: different facility. But I can also as an administrator in corrections,

857
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 11: I can see why they've built some of these institutions

858
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 11: in this in this way because again, you're trying to

859
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 11: reduce stress, you're trying to reduce violence, and you're trying

860
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 11: to put individuals in a position so that when they

861
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 11: do release, that they'll be better mentally and physically.

862
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 5: But no, I'm not.

863
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 2: Let me remind you what this what this is all about.

864
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 2: What tonight is all about. The reason you are here,

865
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 2: the reason I am here. It's about Monique and Spencer TEPPI,

866
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 2: that's what it's about.

867
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 15: Listen, what's changed since the last person I talked to.

868
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 16: There's a body. There's a body.

869
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 15: Here's a body inside. Yeah, okay, hold on one second,

870
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 15: let me get you on the line with the medic. Okay,

871
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 15: on the line.

872
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 16: He appears dead. There's a body. Our friend wasn't in transphoned.

873
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:28,800
Speaker 16: We just did the wellership, we just came here INtime.

874
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 16: He appears dead.

875
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:32,320
Speaker 6: Okay.

876
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 16: I his blood. He's laying next to his head, off

877
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 16: of his and there's blood. I think people shout more

878
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 16: than that.

879
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 5: Okay, he can tell he's obviously not for you.

880
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:43,280
Speaker 2: Ornything?

881
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 3: Is it like how to like like? How to like you?

882
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:47,879
Speaker 5: Because it doesn't look great.

883
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 16: I can't I can't look Okay.

884
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 5: All right, I understand.

885
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 2: Professor Forensics, Jackson State University, Joseph Scott Morgan. What about

886
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 2: the allegations that he's using steroids.

887
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:01,879
Speaker 1: Did you see that before and after?

888
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 5: Yeah?

889
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 7: I did, and again weight gain in bulk and that

890
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 7: sort of thing can be explained in any number of ways. However,

891
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 7: if an individual is abusing steroids, are integrating them into

892
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,360
Speaker 7: their life in any way, that's something that generally happens

893
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 7: early on when they're beginning to utilize them, and you

894
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 7: do see significant growth, But over long term use. Relative

895
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:32,360
Speaker 7: to anabolic steroids, you're talking about things that make people

896
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 7: a bit delusional. They can be highly reactive, they can

897
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:42,359
Speaker 7: actually have a certain level of paranoia relative to them,

898
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 7: and so that's something that should be explored. However, now

899
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 7: that he is incarcerated, if he was using these before,

900
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:53,399
Speaker 7: you could actually see a reduction in size. We'll see

901
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 7: how this plays out.

902
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 1: Randy Cassel, is steroid use a defense.

903
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 6: No, it's a big problem for the actual defense lord

904
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 6: because now the public and the jury might say, well,

905
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 6: he was a functioning doctor, what would have made him

906
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 6: do something? And this is an explanation for them to say, well,

907
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 6: we could see how I could push more of the edge,

908
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:13,920
Speaker 6: But being on steroids doesn't justify this.

909
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 5: If his defense is I did it, but I was

910
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:16,320
Speaker 5: on steroids.

911
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 6: I think his defense is I didn't do it, so

912
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 6: make steroids irrelevant.

913
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 2: Dave Matt, what can you tell me about an alleged

914
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 2: clerical error that could have sparked a killing spree?

915
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 3: Nancy? It is so shocking that this simple clerical air

916
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 3: involving the docket number within the court system. Court officials

917
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 3: have confirmed that this error in the docket number resulted

918
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 3: in the McKee divorce case getting a hearing put on

919
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 3: the docket for June of twenty twenty five, and including

920
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 3: a scheduled trial date for September. This brought everything back

921
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 3: to the forefront for McKee because this was settled in

922
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 3: twenty seventeen and here it is in twenty twenty five

923
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 3: being brought up. It was a simple air. It was

924
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:11,320
Speaker 3: caught and corrected and the scheduled September hearing was canceled,

925
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:12,759
Speaker 3: but it was still brought out.

926
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 15: Nancy.

927
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:17,919
Speaker 2: Jelina Vandenburgh joining us from the Mirror the Irish Star,

928
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:21,320
Speaker 2: and they Expresslina, what happens now?

929
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 4: So now we go to trial. Now the defense and

930
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 4: the prosecutor have each got to work on their evidence.

931
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 4: It's unlikely we're going to hear too many updates of details.

932
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 4: I reached out to all the lawyers, of course, and

933
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 4: they can't comment until the case is over. So, as

934
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:45,279
Speaker 4: I said earlier, the prosecutor is going to have, you know,

935
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,400
Speaker 4: a tough time filling in the little holes and the

936
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 4: little pieces beyond a reasonable doubt, and that's going to

937
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 4: be the next part.

938
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 1: There's no trial date set so far.

939
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 4: He just centered the not guilty plea and we're going

940
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 4: to wait to find when there is a trial data

941
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 4: and if the evidence z to find, that might be

942
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:04,800
Speaker 4: sooner rather than later.

943
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 1: And if anything.

944
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:09,759
Speaker 4: Found complicates the case, then it's going to take some

945
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 4: time before we actually see any kind of official details

946
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:14,320
Speaker 4: from the case.

947
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,800
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend,