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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg P and L Podcast. I'm pim

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Speaker 1: Fox along with my co host Lisa Abramowitz. Each day

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Speaker 1: we bring you the most important, noteworthy, and useful interviews

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Speaker 1: for you and your money, whether you at the grocery

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Speaker 1: store or the trading floor. Find the Bloomberg pm L

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Speaker 1: podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud and at Bloomberg dot com. I

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Speaker 1: want to learn more about what I should think about China.

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Speaker 1: You have some people saying that the economy is improving,

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Speaker 1: that things are looking up in the second biggest economy

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Speaker 1: in the world. Other people are saying, well they did

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Speaker 1: it with by increasing their debt by forty percentage points

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Speaker 1: in one year as a as a proportion of their

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Speaker 1: grocer beastic products. Gives some insight into this. I want

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Speaker 1: to bring in Tom or like Chief Asia Economists for

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Intelligence, who is here with us in our Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: eleven three oh studio. Tom, China is it headed for

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Speaker 1: a terrible crash or is it taking a painful steps

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Speaker 1: to move toward a slow and steady recovery. The problems

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Speaker 1: definitely haven't gone away, as you mentioned stronger growth in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and sixteen, but very substantially driven by a

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Speaker 1: massive increase in bank lending. That said, relative to the

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Speaker 1: situation we were in a year ago, when, if you remember,

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Speaker 1: the equity market was collapsing, FX reserves were slumping, and

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Speaker 1: growth was still weak, the latest numbers we've have are

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Speaker 1: a little bit more positive. I want to just be

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Speaker 1: picked up at us on something that Lisa was talking

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Speaker 1: about having to do with China. Is is it possible to,

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Speaker 1: on the one hand, look at the economy as distinct

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Speaker 1: from the investment outlook, because I'm never able to really

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Speaker 1: reconcile those two things. But also because of the comments

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Speaker 1: by Kyle Bass, what exactly is he is He's saying

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Speaker 1: the country is going to collapse. I think if you

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Speaker 1: look across the world, the world's major economies for the

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Speaker 1: last decade, the financial market story and the real economy

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Speaker 1: story has been very firmly detached. Right Um, real economy US, China,

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Speaker 1: Japan not looking so great hasn't necessarily meant that the

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Speaker 1: investment story has always been negative in China. Right now,

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Speaker 1: it's a little bit the reverse. The real economy numbers

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Speaker 1: are looking pretty solid, but with these rumblings, these concerns

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Speaker 1: about the unsustainable nature of credit expansion. Investors like Carl

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Speaker 1: Bass still don't see this is a good time to

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Speaker 1: go in. I'm going to push back on that a

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Speaker 1: little bit because during two thousand and eight we learned

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Speaker 1: that the real economy and the financial system were perhaps

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Speaker 1: a little bit more intertwined than some people were experiencing.

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Speaker 1: And one concern in China is that with this incredible

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Speaker 1: expansion of credit, you're seeing some cracks that are emerging

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Speaker 1: and some signs that consumers could end up being the

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Speaker 1: ones that are slammed, whether they're taking leverage out to

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Speaker 1: go buy penny shares are set July, or taking out

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Speaker 1: loans to buy a home. I mean, do you foresee

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Speaker 1: is there a catalyst on the horizon that could bring

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Speaker 1: these strains in this excessive leverage to a head in China?

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Speaker 1: I think the catalyst could be right here in the US.

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Speaker 1: If we see an accelerated tightening path from the FED,

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Speaker 1: that's going to mean a tough choice for China's policymakers.

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Speaker 1: Do they follow the dollar up or do they keep

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Speaker 1: the un down to retain trade, to retain export competitiveness.

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Speaker 1: If they do the second, the risk is we're going

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Speaker 1: to see very substantial capital light flows that could start

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Speaker 1: crystallizing some of the risks in the financial system, which

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Speaker 1: are the main focus for global investors. As someone that

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Speaker 1: focuses on the economy of China and on Asia, maybe

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Speaker 1: you could speak about the integration of Hong Kong, Taiwan

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Speaker 1: and the Chinese economy and what would happen to those

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Speaker 1: markets which may be more easily investable for some What

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Speaker 1: would happen to those markets given this Kyle Bass scenario

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Speaker 1: for China, Well, my view is that the doomsday scenario

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Speaker 1: for China is overplayed. Um. I think that China's policymakers

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Speaker 1: retain considerable policy space, which means we're very unlikely to

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Speaker 1: see a messy unwinding of China's unbalances on a one

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Speaker 1: to three year time horizon. Now, if I'm wrong and

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Speaker 1: we do see that messy unwinding, if we do see

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Speaker 1: the risks in the financial system crystallizing in the short term, well,

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Speaker 1: if that happens, you can forget about Hong Kong and Taiwan. Um.

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Speaker 1: It's like all bets are off at that point, right,

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Speaker 1: and it becomes almost a really political issue. The ripple

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Speaker 1: effects would just go much wider. Um you'd feel them

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Speaker 1: across all of Asia. You'd feel them here in the

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Speaker 1: US and in Europe. You know, you're based in China

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Speaker 1: and you have a good look on the ground at

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Speaker 1: the sentiment over here. When President basically shafted the Transport

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Speaker 1: Pacific Partnership and pulled the US out of it, there

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Speaker 1: was this feeling that China could potentially move is the

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Speaker 1: big economic power in the region and gain strength as

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Speaker 1: a result of this. What's your perspective, what's the perspective

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Speaker 1: from Beijing? UM? I think there's certainly a lot of

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Speaker 1: nervousness in Beijing about what the Trump administration is talking about.

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Speaker 1: UM Now, at a very surface level, if the US

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Speaker 1: reduces its trade and security commitments to the Asia Pacific region,

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Speaker 1: clearly China, as the region's largest economy, is going to

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Speaker 1: see an expansion of its influence, and we're already seeing

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Speaker 1: that in the South China. See we're seeing in more

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Speaker 1: infrastructure spending by Chinese firms in Southeast Asia. The question, though,

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Speaker 1: is that a positive or a negative for China. My

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Speaker 1: view is that China has been benefiting by free riding

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Speaker 1: on the U s Security Guarantee and the US guarantee

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Speaker 1: of open markets. If that's taken away, that's going to

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Speaker 1: be more of a cost than a benefit to China.

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Speaker 1: You give us just a quick primer on what that

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Speaker 1: security benefit is, Well, it's a it's a very big picture,

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Speaker 1: it's a very big picture analysis. Um. But the US

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Speaker 1: security guarantee, including troops in Japan, including troops in Korea,

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Speaker 1: that's underwritten the peace and security of the Asia region.

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Speaker 1: It's underwritten the freedom of shipping around the region. And China,

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Speaker 1: as the world's biggest trading nation, has benefited from that

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Speaker 1: peace and security. Just quickly, the controls that are in

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Speaker 1: place on companies in China to invest money outside the country. UH,

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Speaker 1: the State Administration of Foreign Exchange has asked these companies

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Speaker 1: with outbound investment plans to clarify the source of their

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Speaker 1: funding for purchases and it give additional details on their

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Speaker 1: spending plants. So this would mean that a company like

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Speaker 1: a Fox con wants to expand and build a plant

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Speaker 1: in the United States, that they would have to make

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Speaker 1: sure that the Chinese government knew the details of what

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Speaker 1: they wanted to do with the money. This is all

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Speaker 1: about the difficult decision China has to make on managing

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Speaker 1: the UN and managing cross border capital flows. Basically, they've

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Speaker 1: got a choice. They could allow the UN to float,

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Speaker 1: which would be a good market based solution ultimately would

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Speaker 1: end the problem of capital light flows, but it would

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Speaker 1: be a really high risk solution if they don't want

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Speaker 1: to allow the UN to float, and at the moment

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Speaker 1: they don't seem to. They have to find some way

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Speaker 1: to stem the capital light flows. And that policy move

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Speaker 1: you just described to make it tougher for corporates to

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Speaker 1: take their funds out of China. That's a move in

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Speaker 1: that direction. Well, Don, thank you very much. Very interesting.

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Speaker 1: We look forward to having you on more in the future,

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Speaker 1: because this is obviously a topic that is only going

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Speaker 1: to gain in importance. Tom Orler is our chief Asia

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Speaker 1: economist for a Bloomberg Intelligence. He is based in Beijing

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Speaker 1: and he joins us here in our studios here in

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Speaker 1: New York. Ford Motor Company, the major Detroit auto company

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Speaker 1: that has been the target of quite a bit of

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Speaker 1: attention from our new president, just reported earnings that were

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Speaker 1: below analysts estimates and the shares are falling almost three percent.

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Speaker 1: I want to bring in Bob Shank's executive vice president

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Speaker 1: and Chief financial officer of Ford, thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 1: So what do you think is the most important thing

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Speaker 1: that investors should take away from this earnings report? While

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Speaker 1: we were in line with the Bloomberg and First Call

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Speaker 1: at thirty cents a share in the quarter, what I

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Speaker 1: would take away from it is the strength of the

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Speaker 1: results across many parts of our business. We came in

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Speaker 1: with our second best profit for the full year, our

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Speaker 1: second best operating margin, our second best cash flow, so

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Speaker 1: it was very strong. And within that we had a

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Speaker 1: strong North America, a record profit in in Europe, UH

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Speaker 1: second best profit, and Asia Pacific and solid profits at

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Speaker 1: Ford Credit. So to me, it was the strength of

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Speaker 1: the result and the consistency of earnings over a seven

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Speaker 1: year period. So I think it was quite a quite

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Speaker 1: strong results for the company. Frankly, when one interesting note

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Speaker 1: was that Ford took a two hundred million dollar charge

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Speaker 1: as a result of closing the factory abandoning the factory

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Speaker 1: in Mexico as a result of smooth the UH discussions

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Speaker 1: with President Trump. Does this boat poorly for the road

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Speaker 1: ahead and how the relationship of the company will be

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Speaker 1: with the new president. No, I don't think so at all,

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Speaker 1: And and the reason that we canceled the plant is

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Speaker 1: from the time that we had made the decision to

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Speaker 1: do it, we saw small vehicles we're going to go

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Speaker 1: into the plant, small car specifically, and and what we

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Speaker 1: saw was continued and in fact accelerated the decline in

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Speaker 1: customer demand for those segments. So I think it was

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Speaker 1: that primarily, and then with the pro growth policies that

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Speaker 1: we expect the new administration to put in place ultimately, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, that really made us comfortable with the decision,

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Speaker 1: despite the fact that we had just started overall development

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Speaker 1: of the site, so there was a charge associated with it.

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Speaker 1: But we feel very very good about the plan that

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Speaker 1: we have going forward. And and as Mark said Mark Fields,

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Speaker 1: our CEO, a number of times um this week following

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Speaker 1: his two meetings with Mr Trump, I think we're very

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Speaker 1: encouraged by the pro growth attitude and um um the

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Speaker 1: bent of the administration. We just have to wait and

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Speaker 1: see what the specific policies will be. You know, Bob,

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to make mention that you've had a

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Speaker 1: long career at Ford. You were at Ford Motor, but

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Speaker 1: also you did Masda Motor, uh you know, and now

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Speaker 1: as the chief financial officer. You've you've survived a lot

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Speaker 1: in the automobile industry, and uh, I wonder if you

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Speaker 1: could speak from that perspective to um, did you think

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Speaker 1: that you and Mark thought that this is the kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff that you would be focused on now compared to,

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Speaker 1: let's say, what Alan Malali had to do, because these

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Speaker 1: are very different times, not only for your business, but

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Speaker 1: interestingly for your relationship with with Washington. You make my

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Speaker 1: career sound like I just was the most horrible thing

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Speaker 1: anyone could go through it. Well, I mean, and I'm

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Speaker 1: not horrible, but I mean, in other words, you've been there,

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Speaker 1: You've witnessed this, right, I mean, come on, this is

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Speaker 1: this is what actually happened. Well, you know what, it's

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Speaker 1: a great point that you're making. I mean, one of

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Speaker 1: the things that is really exciting but also something you

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Speaker 1: have to deal with and learn how from a government standpoint,

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Speaker 1: is how you run these businesses. They are so big,

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Speaker 1: and they're so complicated, and they're so affected by literally

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Speaker 1: everything that happens around the world. And you're right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: now is a different era than when Alan was here

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Speaker 1: and I worked with Alan that was restructuring. Now we're

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Speaker 1: into you know, stabilizing the business at a high level

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Speaker 1: and then growing particularly in areas that are going to

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Speaker 1: be brand new not only to us, but the whole

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Speaker 1: sector enabled by technology. So it's a completely different focus there.

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Speaker 1: And then, as you said, we've got a new administration.

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Speaker 1: I mean you could be probably couldn't have a you know,

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Speaker 1: a sharper right turn or left tern, whichever way you

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Speaker 1: want to characterize it from the prior administration. Um, it

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Speaker 1: looks positive so far in terms of how everyone feels

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Speaker 1: the direction of the administration in terms of pro growth policies,

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Speaker 1: but we don't have details yet. So well, well, the

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Speaker 1: thing that's positive though is that we're engaged in the

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Speaker 1: dialogue and the conversation with the administration, with Congress and

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Speaker 1: uh so I think we feel that we're you know,

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Speaker 1: we're part of that conversation, and then we feel good

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Speaker 1: about that. In Ford's earnings, uh, the compantee reiterated guidance

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Speaker 1: that earnings will drop this year as begins to invest

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Speaker 1: about four and a half billion dollars towards electronification and

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Speaker 1: uh and spending on self driving vehicles. In this kind

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Speaker 1: of environment, how many new jobs can it can afford? Really?

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Speaker 1: Create in the US. Well, that's a good question too.

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Speaker 1: We've created, you know, quite a number of jobs. Thinking

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Speaker 1: it's twenty eight sous and I think is the number

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Speaker 1: that's on the top of my head over the last

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Speaker 1: five years and in the United States own. I think

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Speaker 1: going forward, these new emerging opportunities represent not only big

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Speaker 1: opportunities for US, but potentially opportunities to in terms of

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Speaker 1: providing you know, great jobs for people not only here

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Speaker 1: in the US, but elsewhere in the world. So, but

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Speaker 1: the thing I guess I would say, um him, is

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Speaker 1: that you know, a lot of that though, will be

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Speaker 1: you know, or I'm sorry, at least it will be

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Speaker 1: further out in the future. Uh, in terms of the

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Speaker 1: benefit to us, because if you think about what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about automas vehicle coming electrification, Uh, what's the point

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Speaker 1: in time where that is going to make economic senses

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Speaker 1: versus an internal combustion engine. Probably in the next decade.

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Speaker 1: So we have to keep you know, we have to

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Speaker 1: move in that direction. But think about the pace of

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Speaker 1: that and a lot of the mobility services that we

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Speaker 1: believe we can offer in the future. You know, we're

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Speaker 1: just creating and working on right now, so that that

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Speaker 1: that future is ahead of us and we're excited about it,

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Speaker 1: and I do think it will generate job opportunities. Hey, Bob,

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Speaker 1: can you speak to the issue of you cars and

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Speaker 1: leases and the whole financing, because we've been speaking with

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Speaker 1: a variety of people. Uh, you know, you start off saying, Okay,

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Speaker 1: more people are doing leases, but now there's going to

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Speaker 1: be a flood of used car on the market and

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Speaker 1: that's going to hurt prices. We saw you know, Hurts

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Speaker 1: got hit with with that the other day. Could you

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Speaker 1: just give us your your thoughts on that. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: another important aspect of the business that's occurring right now.

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Speaker 1: And and just the levels that you first of all,

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Speaker 1: in terms of the Ford credits own uh participation in

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Speaker 1: that for the year, for the full year, we came

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Speaker 1: in at in terms of mix of participation in the

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Speaker 1: lease that's exactly the same as it was the year prior,

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Speaker 1: and I think roughly the same as the year before that.

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Speaker 1: So we haven't we have not moved up in terms

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Speaker 1: of the degree to which we're um we're leasing at

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Speaker 1: least through Ford credit. The industry is though, uh, it

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Speaker 1: moved from and fifteen the third percent this year and

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Speaker 1: you're right, as you know, think about higher leasing and

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Speaker 1: the industry sales have been increasing, so there is a

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Speaker 1: large number of least off lease vehicles that will be

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Speaker 1: coming back to the market over the next several years.

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Speaker 1: That is affecting used vehicle prices through the auctions. It

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Speaker 1: certainly has had an impact on our least portfolio afford credit.

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Speaker 1: So it's not just us because again we haven't participated

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Speaker 1: in that growth to that degree, but it's a broader

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Speaker 1: industry and I think that's probably one of the signs

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Speaker 1: that will suggest, you know, that we are getting in

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Speaker 1: the latter part of the economic cycle that we're in.

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Speaker 1: So in response to that, what we've done is, you know,

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Speaker 1: we have limited, uh, the degree to which we're going

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Speaker 1: to be leasing to around that level that I just

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Speaker 1: mentioned and looking at other alternatives. We've got to leave

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Speaker 1: it there, Thanks very much. We got to run. Bob Shanks.

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Speaker 1: He is the chief financial officer of four Should it

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Speaker 1: be stocks, should it be bonds? What should you be

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Speaker 1: doing with your money? Peter Anderson is the chief investment

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Speaker 1: officer and the vice president of Fiduciary Trust based in Boston.

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Speaker 1: Always a pleasure, Peter, I was looking at a comparison

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Speaker 1: between the dividend yield on the SMP five hundred of

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Speaker 1: about two point oh four percent to be precise, right,

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Speaker 1: so two percent on the SMP of five hundred. But

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Speaker 1: then when I look and I say, oh, ten year,

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Speaker 1: the tenure treasury is more than two and a half percent,

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Speaker 1: it's two point five. What do you say to that? Boy,

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Speaker 1: There's so much to be talking about at this point.

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Speaker 1: You know, right now, there is so much news happening

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Speaker 1: from the Trump administration that UM people seem to be

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Speaker 1: suspending any kind of analytics, especially the question that you

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Speaker 1: were just asking, you know, what is what does that

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Speaker 1: tell us right now? And I would tell you that

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Speaker 1: for the past two to three weeks, I think there

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Speaker 1: is so much data coming in that nobody has the

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Speaker 1: wherewithal to actually make any analytic statements at this point.

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Speaker 1: It's a highly unusual period in this rolling disclosure that

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Speaker 1: we have of new Trump policies and trying to adjust

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Speaker 1: that into the market really doesn't seem to be UM

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Speaker 1: calibrating at all, and it's a highly unusual time. Given

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Speaker 1: that backdrop. Do you still think that rotating out of

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Speaker 1: fixed in coming into equities? Uh? Could likely be a

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Speaker 1: doomed strategy, as you suggested a recent report. Well, not

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Speaker 1: necessarily doomed. I think that there's always a place for

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Speaker 1: fixed income we and especially this time of the period

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Speaker 1: of the cycle. Most people would probably say, well, it's

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Speaker 1: like sticking your hand into an open flame at this point,

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Speaker 1: because of course all of us have a bias towards

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Speaker 1: raising the rates will be increasing. But even if that's

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Speaker 1: the case, you still need a buffer. We don't really

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Speaker 1: know how many of these these are actually going to

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Speaker 1: be implemented, and let's just take a position where we

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Speaker 1: think that maybe not all of them will be. Then

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Speaker 1: the market is so sensitive right now the equity market

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Speaker 1: that I could see that trading. Often if you're left

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Speaker 1: totally inequities, then it doesn't really give you any kind

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Speaker 1: of a buffer capability. So fixed income, especially high grade

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Speaker 1: fixed income, in spite of the fact that rates are rising,

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Speaker 1: you always need to have some amount of exposure, I think,

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Speaker 1: just to be prudent um. I've been reading a lot

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Speaker 1: of investment reports that have been coming out, and one

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Speaker 1: theme consistent throughout has been that there are fatter tails

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Speaker 1: on either end. In other words, the worst case scenarios

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Speaker 1: are worse and the better case scenarios are better. What's

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Speaker 1: your worst case scenario and best case scenario? Well, of course,

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, being a political in this discussion,

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Speaker 1: I think the best case scenario, if you're just looking

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Speaker 1: at the markets and you're trying to get the best returns,

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Speaker 1: would be that the majority of the policies that are

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Speaker 1: being presented would be a opted. And longer term that's debatable,

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Speaker 1: but if you're looking at for say the next three years,

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Speaker 1: I do think the best scenario for a lot of

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Speaker 1: industries would be for the Trump policies to come into play.

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Speaker 1: The worst case scenario would be, perhaps if none of

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Speaker 1: these are in play, and everybody has to go back

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Speaker 1: to their Boomberg terminals and reassess the outlook that we

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Speaker 1: have gotten so used to. I would say in over

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Speaker 1: six weeks now, we are very hused to adopting. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, in our analytic process that most of these

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Speaker 1: policies will come through and improving cash flows, etcetera. There

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Speaker 1: could be really a negative scenario easily painted if none

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Speaker 1: of these things is passed. Well, Peter, you know we

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Speaker 1: I kind of put you in a in a tough

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Speaker 1: position because we started at such a general level, you know,

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Speaker 1: bonds versus versus stocks, Maybe just share with people a

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Speaker 1: little bit of your specific background in terms of the

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Speaker 1: investments that you have made and your rational for these investments,

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Speaker 1: because I think this speaks to an issue of active

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Speaker 1: versus passive management. Because you have such an idiosyncratic moment

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Speaker 1: that it is very hard to use any kind of

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Speaker 1: analytical system. It now relies on personal experience, and I'm

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Speaker 1: wondering if you would share that with us. It exactly

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Speaker 1: doesn't I mean him if you look at the volatility

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Speaker 1: and exper instance of VIX tremendously low at this point,

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Speaker 1: correlations low. Uh. Yet normally I think we all three

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Speaker 1: of us would agree if there were any singular surprises

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Speaker 1: like we've had, you know collectively now, but just pick

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Speaker 1: one of these announcements. Normally the markets would respond immediately

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Speaker 1: and would take a quite a while to work that

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Speaker 1: through the system of rationality. But there are so many

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Speaker 1: surprises that I think the you know we're in we're

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Speaker 1: suffering from indigestion in a sense that we cannot do that.

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Speaker 1: So here's what we recommend is that you have to

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Speaker 1: step back and you have to say, what is the baseline.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of noise, and hopefully the

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Speaker 1: noise will become facts. But right now you can say

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Speaker 1: to yourself, is there a baseline of investment philosophy that

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Speaker 1: I believe in? And can I pick securities based on

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Speaker 1: the intrinsic attractiveness of the these stocks for instance? And

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Speaker 1: on top of that, if you can find UH tail

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Speaker 1: winds that they might enjoy as a result of favorable

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Speaker 1: findings on these policies, then you've got a double. But

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Speaker 1: right now we're just looking for a single. So let

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Speaker 1: me just give you a quick example. I mean only

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Speaker 1: gonna give you ten seconds. Key Bank, for instance. Take

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Speaker 1: a look at that because that has a basic fundamentals

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Speaker 1: are very attractive and if Trump's policies go through with

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Speaker 1: infrastructure spending, then it will actually be even a better stock.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us. Peter Anderson, chief

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Speaker 1: investment officer and vice president a fiduciary trust in Boston. Well,

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Speaker 1: I bet they also know the new Commerce Secretary of

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Speaker 1: the United States, Wilburt Ross, nominated to be UH Commerce

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Speaker 1: Secretary by President Trump. Here to tell us more. Max Abelson,

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Speaker 1: Finance reporter, Bloomberg News. You can follow him on Twitter

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Speaker 1: at Max Abelson. Okay, at Max Abelson tell us about

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Speaker 1: this story. I read it and I got my own thoughts.

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Speaker 1: But you you tell us what you laid out for people, Pam,

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Speaker 1: thank you. So you know, Bloomberg News has spent a

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Speaker 1: lot of time in the last few weeks talking about

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Speaker 1: the six billion dollar cabinet, and there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: folks on people like Stephen Manuchin. Where out the profile

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Speaker 1: of Zach Miighter a couple of months ago, or you know,

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Speaker 1: really almost anyone has has gotten more attention than than

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Speaker 1: the richest man of them all, Wilbur Ross. He's a

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Speaker 1: private equity executive, is I'm sure our listeners know us

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Speaker 1: an investment banker for decades, and considering that he's going

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Speaker 1: to have responsibility to fulfill some of the more populous

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Speaker 1: promises from Trump on the campaign trail, promises about jobs

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Speaker 1: and manufacturing and trade, even infrastructure, we thought it would

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Speaker 1: make sense to take a look at ad Amanda and

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Speaker 1: his career. So Max, just from a big picture perspective,

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Speaker 1: what power does the Secretary of Commerce really have? Lisa,

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Speaker 1: That's a good question because historically the answer is, at

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Speaker 1: least relatively not much. Um, this didn't make it into

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Speaker 1: the piece actually, but you know there was a there's

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Speaker 1: a Commerce secretary under Reagan who died because he was

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Speaker 1: roping steer while he was while he was commverse secretary.

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Speaker 1: Then there was a Commerce Secretary, Ron Brown under Clinton

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Speaker 1: who died in an airplane crash. Um. And then actually

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Speaker 1: after that happened, Um, Obama tried to sort of reshuffle

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Speaker 1: the entire structure of Commerce and u str so the

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Speaker 1: converse secretary might have actually gone away. But Wilbur Ross

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Speaker 1: is gonna be important, and it's gonna be important because

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Speaker 1: he had Donald Trump's ear. They've known each other since

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Speaker 1: about Wilbur Ross actually helps save Trump at the truck

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Speaker 1: kaj Mahal he was representing bond holders. Um. And he's

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Speaker 1: going to be important because he's going to have, um,

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Speaker 1: some real muscle when it comes to being in charge

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Speaker 1: of trade stuff. And he's already had input into these

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Speaker 1: sort of these proposals for public private infrastructure funding. Well, Max,

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Speaker 1: why don't you tell us some details about Wilbert Rouss.

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Speaker 1: What did you discover? So the complicated thing about Wilburg

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Speaker 1: and the reason you have to go back, did he

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Speaker 1: speak with you for this story. No. Actually, I had

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Speaker 1: been emailing because he's been interviewed, oh he until recently.

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Speaker 1: He's a man who loves the press. But I got

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Speaker 1: an email back from his assistant who said, please do

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Speaker 1: not contact anyone at W. A. Ross or anyone who's

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Speaker 1: ever worked here. And then afterwards I got an email

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Speaker 1: with recommendations of people they did want me to talk

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00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 1: to you, And it was like literally like billionaires and

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00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 1: political leaders, um, some of whom I did end up

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Speaker 1: talking to. But just Lisa to go to answer your

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00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 1: excellent question and going back in time. The reason Wilbert

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00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: Ross is a rich man um over generalizes that he

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00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 1: was a steel magnate, and he was a steel magnate, um,

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00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 1: right as terrorifts were coming in. This is like think

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00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 1: like two thousand to two thousand three. But the real, um,

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Speaker 1: the fascinating thing is that, of course, if you're a

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Speaker 1: US steel magnate, you're basically a protectionist. You don't like

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Speaker 1: steel coming in from other countries. So of course he

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00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: was a protectionist. And then he sold it to an

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00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 1: Indian billionaire, sold his steel holdings and he became a

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00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 1: textiles magnate, and then all of a sudden he became

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00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 1: a free trader, and he did projects in China and Vietnam,

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00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: even Nicaragua. Um. But of course we know what's happened

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Speaker 1: in the last year. He's become with Peter Navarro a

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00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: sort of anti China voice. So one of the things

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Speaker 1: that the piece follows is how he's flipped um, you know,

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Speaker 1: several times over his career, which, which is something that

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00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 1: business men do, is just of course in politics, that's

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00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: it's sort of frowned upon. Well, I want to pick

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Speaker 1: up on that very theme, Max, because when you described

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Speaker 1: Wilbur Ross and his prowess in business, it would occur

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Speaker 1: to me that if you're thinking of running an enterprise

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Speaker 1: as a business, this is someone that you would want

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Speaker 1: on your team because they know how to succeed at

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Speaker 1: the business. When you say that, I'm reminded of an

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Speaker 1: anecdote that I that I heard from a leader of

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Speaker 1: Amalgamated Bank, which is a sort of a real almost

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Speaker 1: literally like an Occupy Wall Street bank. They I think

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Speaker 1: Occupy Wall Street really did bank with with Amalgamated whatever

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00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: savings it had, and Wilbur Ross in two twelve invested

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00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 1: fifty about fifty million dollars. W all Ross did into

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Speaker 1: Amalgamated and Ed Griebo, who is the CEO at the time,

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00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: remembers like waking up and watching on business television Wilbur

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00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 1: Ross sort of you know, railing against uh. You know,

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Speaker 1: for example, he was supportive amt Romney and he was

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Speaker 1: actually even publicly supportive at Romney's claim that of Americans

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Speaker 1: are freeloaders. Remember that Wilbur Ross supported him and and

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Speaker 1: Agreebau remembers sort of like watching him at six in

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00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: the morning on business TV, uh, you know, being sort

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00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,080
Speaker 1: of a written Romney supporter. And then at nine and

479
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: they'd meet for a breakfast meeting, and Wilber Ross would

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00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: be completely supportive of Amalgamated Bank. And you know, you

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00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 1: might come, you might listen to an anecdote like that,

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00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: depending on your perspective and think, well, that's like hypocrisy,

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00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: or if you're a businessman you could say, or a

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00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: business person you would say, yeah, that that's what that's

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00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 1: that's what it's all about. You just wasn't maximize profits

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Speaker 1: and not worry about anything else. Max Abelson, thank you

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00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: so much for joining us. Truly tremendous story. Definitely I

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00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: recommend the read Max Abelson, finance reporter at Bloomberg News.

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Speaker 1: Here with us in the Bloomberg eleven three oh Studio.

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00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg P and L podcast.

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00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 1: You can subscribe and listen to interviews at iTunes, SoundCloud,

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00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,360
Speaker 1: or whatever podcast platform you prefer. I'm Pim Fox. I'm

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00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: out there on Twitter at pim Fox. I'm out there

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00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Lisa Abramo. It's one before the podcast.

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Speaker 1: You can always catch us worldwide on Bloomberg Radio. Did

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Speaker 1: the Round the Bay