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Speaker 1: Welcome to Worst Year Ever, A production of I Heart

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Speaker 1: Radio Together Everything, So don't don't welcome back to the

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Speaker 1: Worst Year Ever. The President is poisoning himself, and I

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Speaker 1: think that's clever. Y is a clever ruse on his cart,

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Speaker 1: that's what I got. No, yeah, no, he's a he's

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Speaker 1: a tricky guy. He used his brain and he's like,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna poison myself and maybe make my heart explode.

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Speaker 1: So then I plays get the virus a fourth time,

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Speaker 1: poison yourself to own the lips. Guys. Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: I've the longer this all goes on, the more I

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Speaker 1: think that that that really is that we should just

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Speaker 1: start a counter conspiracy that convinces a lot of these

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Speaker 1: people to take as much hydroxy clark quin as they fit. Like,

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Speaker 1: if there weren't a bunch of people who needed it

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Speaker 1: for real medical purposes, I would be like, this is fine,

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Speaker 1: just let it happen. Yeah, but just you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like, oh, sure, go choke on money, but people

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Speaker 1: who need that to buy food. Yeah yeah, yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: a bummer. There's no good options because it's the worst

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Speaker 1: year ever. Um, which, yeah, it's fun when we we

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Speaker 1: we circle back around on our introductions. So how are

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Speaker 1: y'all doing this week? Everybody happy, everybody having a good time,

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Speaker 1: everybody really excited that good time. Everything's all right. Never

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Speaker 1: gonna get out of quarantine. I'm not great. I'm not either.

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Speaker 1: Um I'm okay. I thought that was great. You guys

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Speaker 1: don't sell yourself. Shut You guys are awesome. Thank you, Sophie. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: today feels slow, Today feels weird and groggy. Every day

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Speaker 1: is a different adventure. But we're here doing it. We

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Speaker 1: are doing it. I got my pals, you Wales is

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Speaker 1: here doing it? What the world media is here taking

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Speaker 1: on the terror Read story. I was worried you would

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Speaker 1: say that because we planned this episode in advance. We did,

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Speaker 1: we did, we planned this episode. This is one of

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Speaker 1: the rare times when we planned an episode. We like

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Speaker 1: settled on what our topic was going to be on Friday,

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Speaker 1: and then as the weekend rolled through, this was still

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Speaker 1: the top subjective discussion. So that's fun. Um Yeah, I think,

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Speaker 1: as most people are aware, In the last week, three

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Speaker 1: big articles dropped um investigating the terror Read case and

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Speaker 1: her allegations against Vice President Joe Biden. Um and her

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Speaker 1: as a as a person and as a credible witness. Um,

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Speaker 1: and they were from There was an article in Vox

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Speaker 1: by Laura McGann. There was an article in PBS News Hour,

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Speaker 1: and there was an article article in Politico by Natasha Cocky. Um.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't write down the PBS news article person's name,

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Speaker 1: which is shitty me, but I'm gonna find it right now.

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Speaker 1: Public Radio. Yeah, it was written by the radio. Oh,

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Speaker 1: it just was written by politics. No wait, no, sorry,

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Speaker 1: I missed stook how they do their byelines. It's by

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Speaker 1: Lisa de Jardin and Daniel Bush. It's by politics. You

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Speaker 1: were right the first times. It's by Lison and it's

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Speaker 1: by those two writers, but they go as politics. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're both the journalistic duo and a d J duo.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Well, in this economy, you've really got to

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Speaker 1: have a backup. That also is what I expect from PBS. No,

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Speaker 1: you know, actually, Okay, So it's these these articles have

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Speaker 1: been passed around quite a lot in the last few days,

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Speaker 1: and the one I'm seeing shared most is the political article,

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Speaker 1: and I am seeing it shared very frequently by like

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Speaker 1: kind of standard you know, democrats like the middle of

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Speaker 1: the road more or less centrist folks. UM, And the

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Speaker 1: overwhelming sentiment I'm seeing express with it is, uh, puts

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Speaker 1: an end to the credibility of terror read and her

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Speaker 1: allegations against Joe Biden. That's how the Politico article is

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Speaker 1: being UM is being talked about by folks on that

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Speaker 1: end of things. UM. And I want to say straight

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Speaker 1: up top so again, these are three reports that we're

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Speaker 1: gonna be digging into today. So there's there's like this

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Speaker 1: question we have right where UM, when somebody makes allegations

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Speaker 1: of this type against a presidential candidate in a race, Uh,

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Speaker 1: what is the what is the burden of proof? How

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Speaker 1: how far do we go and what acts do we

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Speaker 1: take to attempt to vet them? Um? Because it isn't

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Speaker 1: as simple as just saying, Okay, you made an allegation,

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Speaker 1: so I believe you. Um. This is national, Like, this

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Speaker 1: is the future of the entire country when an allegation

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Speaker 1: like this gets made, Like there always needs to be

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Speaker 1: an investigation if there's like criminal allegations, But this is

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Speaker 1: the kind of thing where like it's going to get

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Speaker 1: looked into, right, it has to be looked into when

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Speaker 1: you have an allegation like this, UM. And I think

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Speaker 1: The question then, is what is the appropriate it way

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Speaker 1: to do that? Um? Because there's there's a right way

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Speaker 1: and a wrong way to dig into things like this.

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Speaker 1: And I actually think all three of these articles give

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Speaker 1: us a good examples of the right and the wrong

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Speaker 1: ways to do it um. And in my opinion, the

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Speaker 1: Politico article is basically like a perfect encapsulation of the

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Speaker 1: wrong way to look out at allegations of this type

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Speaker 1: and look at the person making the allegations. So that's

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Speaker 1: kind of going into this. That's kind of how I

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Speaker 1: feel having read them all. Yeah, is this the to

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Speaker 1: hear all the people that feel uh personally like spurned

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Speaker 1: by Tara article? Yeah? Yeah, So the title of the

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Speaker 1: article by Natasha Correcki is manipulative, deceitful user terror Reid

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Speaker 1: left a trail of aggrieved acquaintances. Didn't write that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's bad, bad title. Um. I mean it's a

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Speaker 1: good title in terms of getting the clicks, getting those

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Speaker 1: sweethet clicks. You know. I'll just say in general, as

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Speaker 1: I've been talking to people the past several days, including

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Speaker 1: people in my family about this whole thing, and and yes,

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Speaker 1: what is the burden of proof? How do you go

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Speaker 1: about proving this. I don't think that you can. I

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Speaker 1: don't think that there ultimately is approving one way or

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Speaker 1: the other. Uh. Perhaps some other piece of information is

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Speaker 1: yet to be revealed, and that changes my mind on that,

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Speaker 1: But it seems like there's no way to really find

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Speaker 1: out for sure, right, and my whole thing, and everyone's like, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't believe her, I think she's a liar. Well,

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Speaker 1: why don't you stop for a second, because if it

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Speaker 1: was reversed, which it was a few years ago, and

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Speaker 1: the other side had a candidate where there are these allegations, Uh,

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Speaker 1: what we all said was believe them, or at least

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Speaker 1: believe that there's possibility that this is true, because we

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Speaker 1: need to be able to hold our leaders to the

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Speaker 1: same kind of standard that we hold the people on

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Speaker 1: the other side. Do you know what I mean? And

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Speaker 1: it's like that doesn't Again, it doesn't mean that I'm

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Speaker 1: saying don't vote for Joe Biden because I understand what's

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Speaker 1: at stake here. But at the same time, why are

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Speaker 1: you so quick to dismiss this? Why are we so

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Speaker 1: quick to say no, absolutely didn't happen. I do not

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Speaker 1: have room in my reality for the possibility that this

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Speaker 1: could be true, and and and that's so frustrating to

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Speaker 1: me about the whole conversation. And so now we instead

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Speaker 1: turned to smear campaigns or what have you. And yes,

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Speaker 1: here are all the reasons why this woman is is

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Speaker 1: a villain, you know. Yeah, And I do want to

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Speaker 1: stay upfront. I don't think these are all bad articles.

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Speaker 1: I actually think both the PBS article and the vox

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Speaker 1: armple in particular are are pretty well done and and responsible. Um.

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Speaker 1: And I think that, like to your your initial question, Katie,

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Speaker 1: there's no way, um to get like a like you're

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Speaker 1: not going to buy reporting in a case like this,

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Speaker 1: get like a clear yes or no. Um, we can

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Speaker 1: prove that she is telling the truth, or we can

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Speaker 1: prove that she's lying. But there are some things you

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Speaker 1: can do. So like obviously, the first thing to establish,

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Speaker 1: which was established by the the the Ryan Grimm, the

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Speaker 1: Intercept reporter who broke the initial article, is that it

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Speaker 1: was possible for these for this to have happened, you know,

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Speaker 1: just like the mechanics of it work out because these

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Speaker 1: two were in the same location at the same time. UM.

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Speaker 1: Like that that is the first step, right, Like you

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Speaker 1: make sure that Okay, this person is alleged that this

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Speaker 1: other person assaulted them. Have they ever been at the

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Speaker 1: same place together at once? Like, that's okay, she actually

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Speaker 1: had this job. They actually yes, Yeah, that's the very

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Speaker 1: first most basic thing to do, and that was done

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Speaker 1: um initially and it it is it is like possible

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Speaker 1: in the sense that they were both in the same

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Speaker 1: places at the same times. And she's telling the truth

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Speaker 1: about the fact that she was employed by the campaign. UM.

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Speaker 1: And so the next things too, in terms of like

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Speaker 1: the mechanical stuff, The next things to look into would be, UM,

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Speaker 1: let's trace down the details about her that that she

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Speaker 1: claimed about, like how this happened. So, UM, can we

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Speaker 1: verify that she was anywhere close to that area at

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Speaker 1: that time? Uh? Can we verify things like, you know,

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Speaker 1: she says that she was delivering Joe Biden's jim bag

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Speaker 1: to him. Can we verify that he used that jim

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Speaker 1: um all that sort of stuff. Uh. So that that

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Speaker 1: would be the next thing or a responsible reporter would do.

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Speaker 1: Another thing that responsible reporters would do would talk to

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Speaker 1: other women who had worked in the campaign UM at

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Speaker 1: around that same time, earlier and later to get an

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Speaker 1: understanding of Joe Biden as a boss to women and

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Speaker 1: what that experience of working with him is like. Um,

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Speaker 1: And another thing to do would be to speak with

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Speaker 1: people who knew terror read at the time um or

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Speaker 1: later and prior to the allegations, UH talked to her

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Speaker 1: about what had happened. Um. So those are all things

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Speaker 1: that I would say are responsible things to look into

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Speaker 1: as a journalist. Yeah, like investigating this case. None of

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Speaker 1: those are the things that we're done in the Politico article,

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Speaker 1: And I think we should start there. Yeah, let that, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because I I this is like the hideoust hit piece

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Speaker 1: in all of hit pieceville. Um and it it is.

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Speaker 1: It is a rough read, and I get why people

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Speaker 1: who didn't believe Tara from the start are taking this

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Speaker 1: as a damning indictment of her as a person. Um My,

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Speaker 1: my broad summary of this article would be Terra is

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Speaker 1: a bad person to rent a room too, and her

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Speaker 1: landlords don't like her. Like yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the

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Speaker 1: sense I get a lot from. I mean, it's the

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Speaker 1: same with the Krasnstine article, where it's like, yeah, money stuff,

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Speaker 1: money problems. I don't know, I can't pay rent sometimes,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, Like it's it a lot of reads

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Speaker 1: like shaming, like horror people for struggling, Yeah, and shaming

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Speaker 1: like like this is how I thought when I read

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Speaker 1: her terrible column about Russia that she posts on Medium.

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Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, she seems like a person who's got

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Speaker 1: some issues, but none of none of what's in the

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Speaker 1: political article makes me question her as a credible witness

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Speaker 1: to sexual assault because like, none of the things that

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Speaker 1: people are complaining about, like it's her needing, like asking

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Speaker 1: for help with finances, it's her being late on rent um,

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Speaker 1: it's her, yeah, and it will need these things. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I touched on this when we talked about the Crescency article,

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Speaker 1: Like none of none of the things that these articles

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Speaker 1: get into are she has a history of lying about

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Speaker 1: sexual assault. She has, like it's not specific to any

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Speaker 1: of the thing that we're dealing with. And also, none

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Speaker 1: of the ones that do this ever seemed to examine

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Speaker 1: Joe Biden's history of lying about his history specifically, like

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Speaker 1: he lies about his career constantly and public Yeah, like unabashedly,

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Speaker 1: And that's what none of these articles do. Yeah, none

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Speaker 1: of these, even the ones that I think are reasonably responsible,

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Speaker 1: none of them talk about the fact that, like Joe's

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Speaker 1: told really blatant untruths about his like very basic aspects

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Speaker 1: of his background. So if terror read lying to a

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Speaker 1: landlord is relevant, why isn't that They also, I mean,

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Speaker 1: rarely talk about the fact that he's problematic with women

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Speaker 1: in general. For we've known that for a long time.

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Speaker 1: And you can write it off as you know, creepy

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Speaker 1: Joe Biden touching women, sniffing people's necks and all that stuff,

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Speaker 1: playing with their hair, but it's not that's that's a

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Speaker 1: misuse of your position in a work situation, in any

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Speaker 1: kind of an environment that's invading people's personal space. And

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Speaker 1: that's a really, really, really important conversation and something that

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Speaker 1: undoubtedly has made people uncomfortable for the entirety of his career,

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Speaker 1: right And and that alone isn't really grappled with to me,

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Speaker 1: And I mean, it's just all part of this fabric

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Speaker 1: that that feels unfair. Also, one point I wanted to

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Speaker 1: make what we're talking about this it came to my

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Speaker 1: mind they're trying to pay this portrait of a woman

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Speaker 1: who's unreliable and all of this stuff, And Okay, I

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Speaker 1: I hear you, I see Yeah, maybe she's not a

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Speaker 1: good person to rent to all of this stuff. She

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Speaker 1: wrote that that that piece about putin Okay, it also

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Speaker 1: another way to look at it. That is the portrait

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Speaker 1: of a woman that's had kind of a rough past,

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Speaker 1: maybe has had some troubles. Also, those are the types

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Speaker 1: of women that get preyed upon and don't get praved

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Speaker 1: like like, there's a framing. It's a sexist framing of

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Speaker 1: who this this these different clues, who does this person

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Speaker 1: add up to? Well, there's a different way to look

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Speaker 1: at it, you know. Yeah, that bit from a like

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Speaker 1: a deposition from her ex husband talking about this, uh

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Speaker 1: in like like four or so years after the alleged

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Speaker 1: incident happened, talking about how like she something happened working

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Speaker 1: in Joe Biden's office that traumatized her and still affects

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Speaker 1: her to this day. Is like what he said in

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Speaker 1: the deposition, Um, and that happened that affects people for

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Speaker 1: a long time and their behavior. I don't know when

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Speaker 1: was that deposition again, Um, I want to say it

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Speaker 1: was six or nineties. Sex I have to ask you

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Speaker 1: that because that isn't something that people talk about very much,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's not and it. It's um. You know,

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Speaker 1: some of this is just coming down to this like

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Speaker 1: frustrating American puritanical thing whereby if you're a victim, in

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Speaker 1: order to be treated well, you have to be pure.

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Speaker 1: Where it's like people were willing to believe like the

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Speaker 1: the Kavanaugh accuser, at least people Democrats were willing to

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Speaker 1: believe her in part because like she she had like

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Speaker 1: as clean and like she's she was the ideal victim,

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Speaker 1: right if we're going to talk about that. But terror

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Speaker 1: read is is is messy. She's had a messy past.

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Speaker 1: She's clearly a person who has some some who's got

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Speaker 1: some ship that she needs to that she's needed to

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Speaker 1: deal with over the course of her life. And that

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean she can't be raped. I have known, I

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Speaker 1: don't want this to sound the wrong way. I've known

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Speaker 1: some terrible people, male and female, who were rape victims.

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Speaker 1: The fact that they were terrible people did not mean

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Speaker 1: that they had not also been victimized by other people,

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Speaker 1: and it didn't mean that they deserved it either. No,

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Speaker 1: it did not. It did not. Another way people tend

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Speaker 1: to look at this, well, they put themselves in that situation. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can be like that there were fucking rapists who

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Speaker 1: died at Auschwitz. Like, it doesn't mean that was okay either.

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Speaker 1: Like the fact that someone is flawed doesn't make them

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Speaker 1: incapable of being a victim. Um. And that is what

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Speaker 1: that's particularly the political article, because almost nothing about the

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Speaker 1: political article actually delves into things that that are relevant

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Speaker 1: to the sexual assault. Um. Uh. Stuff other than that

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Speaker 1: her landlord, her landlords think she's a liar for not

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Speaker 1: being able to pay the rent and like kind of

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Speaker 1: begging for money. She seems like the kind of person

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Speaker 1: who's like, had some ship going on and gloms onto

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Speaker 1: people that she feels like um can provide her with

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Speaker 1: a sense of support. Um. And that doesn't Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean she's not a victim. Um. And also it's

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Speaker 1: it's worth noting on some of this stuff at least,

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Speaker 1: like one of the allegations against her that's not from

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Speaker 1: a landlorder is from someone who ran Terry Reade has

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Speaker 1: a thing with horses. Um. Yeah, she likes. She seems

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Speaker 1: to like being living on horse farms and volunteering at

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Speaker 1: horse horse boxes whatever you call a place where they

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Speaker 1: keep horses boxes. Yeah, a horsebox. She's volunteered on horse box. Yeah. Um.

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Speaker 1: And one of the people that she lived with and

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Speaker 1: worked with in this regard says that she was a

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Speaker 1: great person and that she considered her like part of

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Speaker 1: the family. One of the people in who was just

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Speaker 1: a horse sectionary owner, not a landlord, which is I

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Speaker 1: have some issues with landlords because seventy percent of them

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Speaker 1: are outright eminals. Um. But horse sanctuary people I think aren't.

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Speaker 1: And one of the horse sanctuary people at a very

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Speaker 1: bad experience with terror read Lynn Hummer who said she

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Speaker 1: has a problem. I think she's very clever, manipulative. I

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Speaker 1: do think she's a liar um. And basically, like some

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Speaker 1: of this is based off the fact that Reid's car

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Speaker 1: was being repoed and she begged this person to let

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Speaker 1: her hide her car on her property, which again I

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Speaker 1: can say for a fact, I know people who have

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Speaker 1: been victims of variety of crimes and have also hidden

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Speaker 1: cars from ripo men, because that's just the thing that

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Speaker 1: happens when you're poor. Like, I get why maybe a person,

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Speaker 1: I get why, especially if this lady is like rich Um,

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Speaker 1: which she owns a horse sanctuary, so probably right, I

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Speaker 1: get why she might just think that Anyone who does

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Speaker 1: that is like a dangerous liar. It's pretty common poor

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Speaker 1: person behavior to have to hide a fucking car from Repo. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's wild, Um that that was that that kind of

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Speaker 1: stuff was included, Um like going through like this is

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Speaker 1: just the Crescentine stuff, but like yeah, a few more

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Speaker 1: of them. Yeah, it's like, oh, no, she asked you

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Speaker 1: if she could park her car on your land so

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Speaker 1: she didn't have to pay an extra five bucks to

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Speaker 1: the REPO guy when she could finally get her ship

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Speaker 1: together to pay her bill. Like like you want a

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Speaker 1: laundry list of all the times Christine Lassie Ford like

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Speaker 1: had to ask for money, Like, yeah, what should we

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Speaker 1: take a break? Guys? Yeah, you know what? Won't you

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Speaker 1: know what? Will let you park your car while it's

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Speaker 1: in danger of being repossessed on its horse sanctuary so

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Speaker 1: that you can avoid the REPO man. Yeah, well, Rayon, Katie,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad that you brought that up, because not only

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Speaker 1: will Raytheon let you hide your car in their parking lot,

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Speaker 1: Raytheon will ensure that nobody ever has a problem with

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Speaker 1: REPO men again thanks to Raytheon's new No More People program,

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Speaker 1: or they just where they just missile everybody. That's the

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Speaker 1: raytheon dream a world without Repo Man or anyone else.

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Speaker 1: We're back. Oh my god. So yeah, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: Like you know, I can't help Whenever I as I'm

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Speaker 1: going over this, think about Rodrigo du terte Um the president,

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Speaker 1: you know, quasi dictator. Now if the Philippines, because do

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Speaker 1: Tarte is um, he's a liar, he's a murderer, he's

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Speaker 1: a monster. He was also molested by a Catholic priest

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Speaker 1: um and like we don't have hard evidence of it,

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Speaker 1: like there's no video of it, but we know that

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Speaker 1: he was in that priest parish. We know that priest

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Speaker 1: molested a bunch of other kids, and there is zero

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Speaker 1: reason to believe that Rodrigo do Tarte would lie about

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Speaker 1: being the victim of that sort of thing. Doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: he's not still a monster, you like, And I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying Tara Read is a monster either. I'm just saying,

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Speaker 1: like I I don't I don't hear anybody doubting rodrid

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Speaker 1: Goo do Tarte's story. But anyway, there are other reasons,

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Speaker 1: like obviously, like she's she's expressed a partisan opinion in

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Speaker 1: an election which automatically nullifies her as a human being

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Speaker 1: to anyone who doesn't share that political agenda, because that's

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Speaker 1: the way politics works. It's gross. Uh so yeah, this

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Speaker 1: this the horse sanctuary lady who didn't like Read. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: said that she would beg for money, which is a

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Speaker 1: pretty common like a common like she seemed to be

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Speaker 1: renting a lot of rooms from people who were better

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Speaker 1: off and would regularly like beg for forgiveness on rent

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Speaker 1: and would also ask for loans of money. And that's

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Speaker 1: a common thread, which again has nothing to do with

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Speaker 1: whether or not she's the victim of sexual assault. It's

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Speaker 1: also like very just like now of all times to

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Speaker 1: be like, yeah, look at these these poor landlords and

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Speaker 1: the rent that they like they needed to get. It's

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Speaker 1: just it's just wild that is happening right now. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's frustrating. Yeah, now this person uh Lynn Hummer also

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Speaker 1: alleges that Read called a veterinarian to the ranch to

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Speaker 1: service terror Read's own horse. I guess she had or

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Speaker 1: has a horse and left Hummer to pay the bill, um,

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Speaker 1: which would be some shady behavior. Read denies this and

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Speaker 1: his claim that her lawyer is gonna file a CISA

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Speaker 1: desist case. I don't know what's actually going to happen

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Speaker 1: with this. I don't know. So there's one two paragraph

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Speaker 1: chunk of this that I want to read that I

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Speaker 1: do think is worth talking about a little bit more

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Speaker 1: in detail. Quote five of her acquaintances have specific recollections

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Speaker 1: where Read spoken positive terms about Biden as recently. Still

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Speaker 1: has an eighteen one year before she lodged an initial

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Speaker 1: charge against Biden that he had sexually harassed her um.

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Speaker 1: According to their accounts, Read proactively brought up the former

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Speaker 1: Vice president's name, pointing to her time in his Senate

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Speaker 1: offices as a high point in her career. Those interviews

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Speaker 1: said they were into the impression that Read spent years

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Speaker 1: in his office or had played a role in helping

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Speaker 1: write landmark legislation, though she actually served in a junior

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Speaker 1: level position for less than a year. Now, this is

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Speaker 1: interesting to me because it could mean a few different things. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: the author is taking it as a c she really

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Speaker 1: loves Biden point. But it's super like it's super common

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Speaker 1: for victims to want to try to salvage something good

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Speaker 1: from a traumatic event like a rape. UM, and I

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Speaker 1: don't find it personally suspicious, especially since, and this is

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Speaker 1: again consistent against all of these articles, they find people

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Speaker 1: who are like, yeah, she would speak positively of Biden,

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Speaker 1: but more often she would speak positibively of her time

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Speaker 1: in his office and the things accomplished by that she did.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like she's had a hard life. Of course,

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Speaker 1: working for a famous senator was a highlight of her career.

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Speaker 1: Are you yeah talking about your career along those lines.

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Speaker 1: I get frustrated by a lot of the talking points.

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Speaker 1: And again, maybe something will come out and blow all

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Speaker 1: of this out of the water and we'll be completely wrong.

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Speaker 1: But all of these things are so flimsy to me

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Speaker 1: because it's common for stories of sexual assault victims to change.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of reasons why it would

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Speaker 1: be too hard to remember. It could be that they

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Speaker 1: don't think that they would be believed. Maybe they don't

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Speaker 1: want to talk about it. And again, that was clearly

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Speaker 1: a high point of her career, because you know she

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Speaker 1: struggled since then there's even Katie, there's a quote from

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Speaker 1: a one of her landladies who was also a psychologist,

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Speaker 1: UM that actually speaks to that UM where this woman

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Speaker 1: noted quote she presented it as I can get my

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Speaker 1: life together. I worked for Joe Biden, I had a

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Speaker 1: really high level job. I have that capacity, which totally

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Speaker 1: makes sense. It's really heartbreaking. Yeah, it's very sad. Um. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And also like in some of the situation, especially with

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Speaker 1: someone like Joe Biden, like a big like you're I

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Speaker 1: don't know, you're working in this guy's office, Like you're

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Speaker 1: not necessarily going to perceive it as like a sexual

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Speaker 1: assault situation necessarily right away, right, a rationalized stuff way yeah. Um,

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Speaker 1: and just the idea that like, well she didn't tell

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Speaker 1: everybody right away that she knew kind of um about this,

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Speaker 1: Like I don't know, it's it's very frustrating to see

425
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:49,639
Speaker 1: that uh go that way when um, if it were

426
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 1: anyone else or about anyone else, that wouldn't be it. Um. Also,

427
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:58,199
Speaker 1: I just find it just one thing. It's it happens

428
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 1: a lot with a lot of these articles. I seeing

429
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 1: a lot of these people. That's kind of contradictory, where

430
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: like you were saying, how oh yeah, all these people

431
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 1: heard her talk about how what a great time she

432
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 1: hadn't Biden's office, But she also said that she had

433
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: a really high level position and she did a lot

434
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 1: of this stuff when she actually didn't. So like they're

435
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 1: presenting this situation where like, see, she's saying that she

436
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 1: had a great time there, which was the truth, but

437
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: she also said that she had a high level position,

438
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 1: which was false. So like, wait, which is she lying about?

439
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 1: Which one? Like? Which one? Maybe which she has a

440
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 1: history of needing to like of She's she's had a

441
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 1: fucking rough few years and she has a history of

442
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 1: building up this chunk of her life because it's something

443
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 1: that she can brag about to other people with a

444
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: guy who was very famous at the time. Come on,

445
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 1: do we not know people? Do we not recognize that

446
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,679
Speaker 1: instinct in ourselves at some point? Yeah, it's just in

447
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 1: the same breath, presenting those two things as like seeing

448
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: here is both and there they oppose each other in

449
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 1: terms of the argument they're trying to make. One of

450
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,959
Speaker 1: the things I recognize this from is just people. Trauma

451
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 1: sucks up your your memory. I can say that as

452
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 1: someone who's deck with PTSD. I can also say that

453
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 1: as having I have an experience that I think is

454
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,479
Speaker 1: really relevant here. I have a good friend who was

455
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 1: who was a marine and with you know, one of

456
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 1: the first units. I have a couple actually, one of

457
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: the first units into Iraq, and I've gone. I went

458
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,399
Speaker 1: to their their anniversary hike. They do a hike up

459
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 1: this mountain in San Diego, and they like it was

460
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 1: like them and all of their their comrades and stuff

461
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 1: that who had been like in really heavy combat, a

462
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: lot of them wounded together, and they were all just

463
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 1: talking about ship. And one of the most interesting things

464
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 1: was hearing someone tell a story and then going over

465
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 1: to my friend or both of my friends and then

466
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 1: being like, no, it didn't happen that way, like he's

467
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: either lying or he's misremembered. This is actually what happened.

468
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: And that happening constantly with almost everybody's stories and other

469
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 1: people saying like, no, that's not what happened, or this

470
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 1: happened like oh they've been lying about that for years,

471
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 1: or they just remember that. And like I remember my

472
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 1: friends saying to me like, I don't even think a

473
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 1: lot of them realize that what there's because there's stuff

474
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: stuff like people got awards for ship that other people

475
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: did and multiple members of the unit would be like, yeah,

476
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,239
Speaker 1: that's what he got the award for. But it was

477
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 1: this person who didn't um, and it's just like it's

478
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: like and yeah again, my friend was like I don't

479
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 1: even know if they're lying, Like it's just what like

480
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: you you tell yourself that's what happened for so long,

481
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: Like it was such a chaotic time, like it it's

482
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 1: it's fucking it's traumatic and people people are bad at

483
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 1: remembering things period. That one of the things that Sereal

484
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: did best the original podcast, that very first episode is

485
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 1: pointed out like think back to something eight years ago,

486
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,919
Speaker 1: how much do you really know about what happened? Then

487
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: of course her story has like like people's memories are flawed,

488
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 1: especially in times of trauma. So there's a couple of

489
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 1: things as we finish off the political article that are

490
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: interesting to me. One of the things is like, yeah,

491
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 1: the fact that like they go through this article which

492
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 1: is just all about basically landlords that she like either

493
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 1: screwed out of some rent or like loaned money from, um,

494
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 1: all that stuff. Like there's there's people who have those

495
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: bad worries that have nothing to do about sexual assault.

496
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: And then also a bunch of people like this psychologist

497
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 1: she rented a room from who said that she Tara

498
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: confided a lot in her and never talked about sexual assault.

499
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: And then in one paragraph, the author of this political

500
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: article notes a former neighbor, however, told Business Insider that

501
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: Reads spoke of the assault in the mid nineteen nineties.

502
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 1: A work colleague from around the same time told the

503
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: publication that Read complained of her sexual harassment in Biden's office.

504
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: A document filed by Read sex husband in nine also

505
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: states that Read had complained of harassment. That's basically sucking

506
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: it um, which is like, oh, so, it's not that

507
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 1: she was only ever saying positive things about Joe Biden.

508
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: It's that she didn't confide about the worst event in

509
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: her life to every landlord she ever had. That's the tera.

510
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 1: Read is a bad person to rent a room to

511
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: and doesn't tell landlords about her sexual assault. Oh no,

512
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: that makes that like that has very frustrated by the

513
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: Politico article. I think it is a bad article that specifically,

514
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 1: I mean outside of the fact of obviously she wouldn't

515
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: confide that to a landlord, you know, something that she

516
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: doesn't trust. But yeah, that's a landlords the person that

517
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: you would brag about having worked for Joe Biden to,

518
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: and especially at that time, Victims of sexual assault or

519
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: you know, harassment. We're not respected. That is one of

520
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: time when somebody would have said, like, well that makes sense,

521
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,959
Speaker 1: you know, I bet you asked for it. Yeah, and

522
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 1: it's it's like, I mean, yeah, I'm just so frustrated

523
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 1: by the whole lying to landlords thing being a mark

524
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 1: against her because like, I have so many friends that

525
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 1: will do ship like photoshop their credit score so that

526
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: they can get because she don't want to yet you

527
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: want to get the apartment right, Like, it's not uncommon

528
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: to light to landlords. Um. And also most of my

529
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 1: landlords were liars. I've had to, like to tell I've

530
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: had to talk to like Los Angeles County inspectors and

531
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: like convince them not to report things about the building

532
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: that were illegal because the rent was low and even

533
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: though the place was a fire hazard, I didn't want

534
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: to get kicked out. Like that's fucking life, man. Um,

535
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: It's I hate this now. The the PBS article, which

536
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: we're gonna move on to, is a lot better, um

537
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: for one thing. So again, I think fundamentally the political

538
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: article is kind of irresponsible because you're you're you're you're

539
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: focusing on like random, unrelated bad stuff that this person

540
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: might have done that has nothing to do with their

541
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: credibility and a sexual assault allegation. The PBS article is

542
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: very different. They speak with seventy four former Biden staffers,

543
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: of whom sixty two were women, UM, to talk about

544
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: his behavior towards women over the course of his career,

545
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: how they see the allegations and if there's evidence of

546
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: a larger pattern. That is a responsible way to pursue

547
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: an article like this, Um, that is something that should

548
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: be done when allegations like this are made, especially since

549
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: there's already seven or eight women who alleged inappropriate touching

550
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: by Joe Biden. So yeah, from the start, I think

551
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: this is like a responsible thing for a news outlet

552
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: to cover, right. Um. I don't know if there's any

553
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: disagreement with that, but it seems like a reasonable set

554
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: a questions to ask, Right, Okay, Uh, he's been accused

555
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: of inappropriate behavior to women. Let's talk to every woman

556
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: who worked for him. We can find and see what

557
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:11,719
Speaker 1: have they think? Like that that that makes sense to me, absolutely, yeah, um,

558
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna quote from that now. None of the

559
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 1: people interviewed said that they had experienced sexual harassment assaulter

560
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: misconduct by Biden. All said that they had never heard

561
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: any rumors or allegations of Biden engaging in sexual misconduct

562
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: until the recent assault allegation made by Terror Reid. Former

563
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: staffer said they believed Reid should be heard and acknowledged

564
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: that their experiences do not disprove her accusation. Over All,

565
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: the people who spoke to The News Hour described largely

566
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: positive and gratifying experiences working for Biden, painting a portrait

567
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 1: of someone who was ahead of his time and empowering

568
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: women in the workplace. And I think, guys, this is

569
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: the point at which we should all talk a little

570
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: bit about a former colleague of ours. UM. A guy

571
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: who had a reputation for writing very woke articles, including

572
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: articles with survivors of sexual assault. UM. A guy who

573
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: had a really good reputation online uh, in terms of

574
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: being like a progressive and pro women advocate. A guy who,

575
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: if allegations about his own sexual misconduct had not come out,

576
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: would probably have been trying to get in on the

577
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: whole writing about me two stories thing. UM. I think

578
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: we all know who that is. I don't know that

579
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: we need to share his name, but some we worked

580
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: with it cracked, you could find it if, like his

581
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: accusers have have made their allegations public, it will not

582
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,479
Speaker 1: be hard to track this down if you want. Um,

583
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 1: he was somebody who had a good relations with like

584
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: even after so one of the things that made this

585
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: situation stressful working with him is that like a chunk

586
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: of the office found out that he had sexually assaulted

587
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: and physically abused a couple of different UM women, UM

588
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: before the other half of the office did, and for

589
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: a variety of reasons including um there being laws about

590
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 1: hostile work environments and stuff. Uh, there was a period

591
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: of time where not everyone in the office knew about

592
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: what had happened, and he continued to have good relationships

593
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: with a number of women he worked with in that

594
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: office who were shocked when the obligations were made public.

595
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: That is a thing that happened, and it happens a lot, absolutely,

596
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: you guys. People weren't allowed to talk about it, you know,

597
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: it was even even uh, which is so surprising and weird, Like,

598
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: because you want to be able to protect people, you

599
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: know legally you do, and you also like you don't

600
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: want this person that you just learned about doing a

601
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: horrible thing to make, you know, a million dollars because

602
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: of a hostile work environment suits. So you you listen

603
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: to the lawyers and you you hope that that's the

604
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: right thing to do, and then you spend the rest

605
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: of your life wondering was that the right thing to do.

606
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: And that's not to say that that's necessarily what happened

607
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: to here, but it easily could have been. You know,

608
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: there's you know, it's it's more to make the point,

609
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: a lot of women will say, and I don't think

610
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: they're liars, are doing this for their career, that Joe

611
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: Biden was one of the very best people to work

612
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: with on Capitol Hill if you were a woman in

613
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: like the nineties, in eighties and stuff like, he was

614
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: ahead of his time. He did a great job of

615
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,479
Speaker 1: making these women feel valued. And I don't think that

616
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: they're lying about that for the sake of their career,

617
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: because there's a lot of women who are very consistent

618
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: about that. And that is relevant because it does speak

619
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: to his character, but it's also it's also something whereby

620
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: there have been a number of people who have committed

621
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: rape and who have also had great like engaging in

622
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: positive work relationships with women that they didn't ripe and

623
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 1: absolutely and you know what else is relevant? Uh, that

624
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:36,719
Speaker 1: doesn't get talked about enough, I think, Katie, because god no,

625
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: but it you know who else? Um No, it's the

626
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: way he treated and handled Anita Hill, a sexual assault

627
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: in the workplace case and this time around is not

628
00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: often brought up in general, but deafly not in regards

629
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: to this again, and I can't say this is enough

630
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 1: around the same time, you know, yeah, and that's you know,

631
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: there's the PBS news article. News hour article is much

632
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,280
Speaker 1: better than the political article, but it's also very flawed.

633
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: And then I think is one of the reasons why

634
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,879
Speaker 1: it's very flawed, and others that it doesn't talk about

635
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 1: Joe's own history of lying about his past, although it's

636
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: not really Yeah, I think that's relevant, as I find

637
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: weird Like in the quote, and forgive me if I

638
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: didn't quite catch the exact wording, but like it said

639
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: that all the women didn't have any inkling of like

640
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: any sort of sexual harassment claims until terror read but

641
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:43,479
Speaker 1: like sexual misconduct. But okay, but that's the year ago.

642
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: There were all these sexual misconduct allegations, well, there were

643
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 1: allegations of inappropriate touching. I guess they might be saying that, like, well,

644
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 1: that's not the same as yeah. Yeah, it's frustrating. A

645
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:02,399
Speaker 1: lot of these articles will not even bother defining these

646
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 1: terms or like making distinctions work, like talking about that

647
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 1: in the right context from Yeah, most of them are. Yeah,

648
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 1: inappropriately touching should be considered sexual miscon that's sexual Yeah,

649
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: where are not? Like, Okay, we can have the argument

650
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 1: if you if we must. Yeah, it doesn't understand stand Oh,

651
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: I know you're not. I just mean in general. People

652
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 1: can say like, oh, but Joe Biden doesn't He didn't

653
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: mean it like that. Yeah, okay, the rules of change, Katie,

654
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: did you hear the rules have changed? Weird? But yeah. Yeah,

655
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:46,240
Speaker 1: like walking up to like a colleague from behind and uh,

656
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 1: like putting your hands on their head and then kissing

657
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: the back of their head while sniffing their hair. That's

658
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 1: sexual misconduct. That's what that is. Yeah, it is, and

659
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: it's um, I don't know. We'll talk more about that

660
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,280
Speaker 1: in a little bit. Um. There's allegations from Ben Savage,

661
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 1: who who worked next to read, that she wasn't forced

662
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: out of her job in retaliation for sexual harassment, that

663
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: she was just kind of bad at the job, um

664
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: and flaky, which totally possible. Like, and it's possible that

665
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 1: like again, this not isn't even necessarily an area where

666
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: there's there's lying. She may have both. She may both

667
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 1: honestly feel she was forced out because of her sexual

668
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 1: harassment claims, and also her colleagues may feel that she

669
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: just wasn't very good at her job. Both of those

670
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 1: things could be true. I don't know. It sounds like

671
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: maybe she was a bad worker. She might be. Yeah,

672
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: but a perspective thing too, because especially when this allegedly happened, like, yeah,

673
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: that guy's not gonna like he's not gonna aware of

674
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: sexual harassment going on, like and no one like, no

675
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: man in that air, So who's getting you know, I

676
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 1: don't know. It's maybe if she was, if she is

677
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,280
Speaker 1: the victim of this kind of trauma, maybe she started

678
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: not doing such a great job at work because she

679
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 1: was traumatized, and all this guy would know is like, boy,

680
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 1: she's really not pulling her way, Like she's not gonna

681
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: confide in to him. He just a guy who sits

682
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: next to her, Like, yeah, that's totally possible. Now. One

683
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 1: of the things that I do think that's interesting is

684
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: the her claims about like being asked to um a

685
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 1: period of fundraiser because one of Biden's colleagues thought she

686
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: was hot um and serve drinks um. And this is

687
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 1: something that I think is very relevant. PBS News articles

688
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: notes quote more than fifty former staffers said they didn't

689
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 1: remember ever attending a fundraiser for Biden in Washington, d C.

690
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: Which is where read says this one was when they

691
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 1: were on his Senate staff, and some are called an

692
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 1: office policy banning most of Biden's Senate staff from doing

693
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: campaign work. Further, two men who worked as junior staffers

694
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 1: for Biden said the senator specifically did not want women

695
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 1: serve to serve beverages like coffee or perform other menial tasks,

696
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: and his Senate office, around the committees he chaired, men

697
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: were typically asked to perform such tasks. He didn't want

698
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: the image of a young woman's staff or serving him,

699
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: said John Earnhardt, who took over reads duties. So yeah,

700
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know that is that strikes me

701
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: as a relevant thing to talk about, like this, this

702
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: fact that like other people don't recall the same kind

703
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: of event, that she was supposedly at um and that

704
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: he didn't have a habit of asking women to serve

705
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 1: drinks at these I do think that's a relevant point

706
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: to bring up. It's obviously not conclusive one way or

707
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: the other, but I would call that as an example

708
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: as opposed to talking to her former landlords. I think

709
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,399
Speaker 1: that's an example of a relevant relevant that's slightly more

710
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 1: relevant than whether or not you could make rent twenty

711
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 1: years ago. Yeah, I think it's time to take an

712
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: ad break. Yes, yes, you know. It's also relevant to

713
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: allegations of Nope, nope, nope, that's not that we no, no, no, Jesus,

714
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: oh boy. But products and services are good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

715
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:56,760
Speaker 1: well together ere back were good. They were they were great.

716
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:02,919
Speaker 1: I thankfully not relevant to the topic. No never. So yeah,

717
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:04,800
Speaker 1: there's another quote in here that I find relevant that

718
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: I'm gonna read from now. Quote Victoria Nourse, who so

719
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: served as Biden's top lawyer in the Judiciary Committee in

720
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 1: the early nineteen ninies, were called Biden's reaction when another

721
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: official made a comment about her looks in front of

722
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 1: Biden during a flight in nine. The man said, O

723
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: Joe let me sit next to the pretty girl recalled

724
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 1: nurse who later served as Biden's chief counsel in the

725
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: White House. Biden told the man off Nor said, making

726
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 1: it clear that we were here for work and that

727
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 1: that was inappropriate in a very no nonsense way. Um.

728
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 1: So that's that's good. That's that's again a relevant thing

729
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 1: to bring up. Um. It is also, however, brought up

730
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: in this article, to its credit, that like they're interviewing

731
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,439
Speaker 1: a bunch of former and like people who have worked

732
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 1: with Biden and who have a reason to believe they

733
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 1: might get hired in a Biden white House, which is

734
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 1: also irrelevant thing to bring up. So I'm glad they

735
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 1: did bring that up. That's that's a good to day, right,

736
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: That's that's what you want out of these articles, where

737
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, here's this thing, but also here's some

738
00:39:56,239 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 1: context for you. Um yeah. And there's there's reasons to

739
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: critique the people and which we have critique the PBS article.

740
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: But again I do want to state I don't think

741
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 1: it is as like an irresponsible article. Um, I just

742
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 1: think it's imperfect. So um yeah, and there's another I

743
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: think probably the most relevant thing this article notes is

744
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,280
Speaker 1: is it talks with Liz Tanker's Lee, who was Biden's

745
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: legislative director from nine to nine nine. Um And was

746
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,280
Speaker 1: also part of a group of women who put together

747
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 1: a list of problematic men on Capitol Hill for other women.

748
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: It was kind of like, we have one of these

749
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 1: circulating in Los Angeles right where it's like network. Yeah,

750
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 1: these are people in men in the industry that you

751
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 1: shouldn't be alone with, you know, um, because they have

752
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 1: you know, there's been allegations against him with being sketchy

753
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 1: as shit. Um And Liz said, quote, you got to

754
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 1: know which senators you didn't want to be on an

755
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 1: elevator alone with. No one ever said Joe Biden was

756
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 1: one of them. Um on that list in nineteen nine,

757
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 1: according to multiple staffers with Senator Bob Packwood, Republican from Oregon.

758
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: He later resigned in nineteen n five after the public

759
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 1: revelation that he had engaged in years of aggressive sexual

760
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,320
Speaker 1: behavior towards women. Include staffers. The late Senator Strom Thurman,

761
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 1: Republican South Carolina, was also infamously on the avoid elevator list.

762
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 1: Staffers claim, so was another nats S lawmaker, Senator Ted Kennedy.

763
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 1: Democrat from Massachusetts. No surprises there, um, Joe, Joe Biden's

764
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: good buddy strom Thurman. Yeah, and it's it's worth noting.

765
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 1: So one of the things we're talking about is Joe

766
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 1: has this absolute and and documented. We know this to

767
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: a point of certainty that he has a history of

768
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: touching people in creepy ways, because there's there's no shortage

769
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 1: of pictures of him doing it, so we know that

770
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,399
Speaker 1: that's a thing that occurred. But also, I think kind

771
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 1: of the point this makes is that, like maybe one

772
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 1: of the reasons why people thought so positively of him

773
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: in relation to this in this period is because he

774
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 1: wasn't a sexual assaulting Yeah, exactly, he was like not

775
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 1: in the same Like the bar was really low because

776
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 1: there were a ton of people who were just outright

777
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 1: grope on an elevator. Um. Which still leaves a lot

778
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 1: of room for Joe Biden to do some terrible things,

779
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: um and still be viewed as a good guy by

780
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 1: most of the people who worked with him because it

781
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 1: wasn't hard because most of the men on Capitol Hill

782
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 1: were fucking gross as shit, um, And just like seeming

783
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 1: not that gross was easy. Yeah. Now there are the

784
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 1: the at the end of the PBS article does get

785
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 1: to the fact that some of the people who worked

786
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: with Um, including Burne, one of the women who put

787
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 1: together his list, knew that there was a history of

788
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,399
Speaker 1: Biden uh he had a habit of touching people when

789
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: interacting with them. We knew that about Biden. He was

790
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: always massaging somebody's shoulders, but never anything more than that.

791
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 1: There was no vibe about him. Many staffer stress that

792
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 1: people frequently gravitate towards Biden as a kind of comforter

793
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,800
Speaker 1: in chief and look for an around the should uh,

794
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: an armor on the shoulder, or a kiss on the cheek. However,

795
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 1: staffords agree it was not in Biden's nature to gauge

796
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: social signals about whether someone wanted to be hugged or touched.

797
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 1: Many said they learned that he might do so without warning,

798
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 1: though most saw it as an endearing quality that wasn't

799
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,800
Speaker 1: sexual in nature. A former staffers said that when Biden

800
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: does things like stroking women's hair, there's a complicated dynamic

801
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 1: at play. His behavior towards women can be somewhat infantilizing.

802
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 1: The sta Afford said that doesn't look like a quality, right,

803
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 1: but it was an expression of empathy is a post

804
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 1: of flirtation for others Biden's touching evokes and regret. There

805
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 1: were times I now look back that I think we

806
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 1: messed up. We should have said something about that. A

807
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 1: different former staffer said, we probably should have recognized that

808
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 1: made people uncomfortable. So this is kind of how the

809
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 1: article ends. UM. Yeah, yeah, so it's not conclusive. Um,

810
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: there's a lot that you can take out of that. UM.

811
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 1: Obviously flawed in some ways. UM. I think the best

812
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 1: of these articles that I ran across was the Vox

813
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 1: article UM written by Laura McGann. Um. And for a

814
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 1: little bit of the history of Laura McGann, you know,

815
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: because again people will look into like whether or not

816
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: these journalists have a history of like supporting Biden or

817
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: you know, being more liberal or more left to determine

818
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: whether or not they can incredibly report on this. Laura

819
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:54,879
Speaker 1: McGan did write an article pretty recently titled Joe Biden

820
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 1: is the only one with a chance of getting this done.

821
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 1: But in April two thousand nineteen, she also wrote an

822
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 1: article Wold titled Lucy Flores Isn't alone. Joe Biden has

823
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: a long history of touching women inappropriately. She's also written

824
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 1: several articles about different reasons women don't come forward with

825
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: stories of harassment, particularly by powerful men. UM. I think

826
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 1: Laura is a reasonably credible journalist to be writing the story,

827
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 1: and she also has a personal reason to write this

828
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:19,800
Speaker 1: story because she was one of the very first people

829
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 1: interviewing Terror read um before the allegations were made public,

830
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: and she was not able to publish the allegations that

831
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 1: she made against Terror read because, like Terror was talking

832
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: to a number of different reporters at the time, Laura

833
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 1: wound up not being able to like back it up

834
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: enough for her editors to actually write the story, and

835
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 1: someone else put the story out first, which is the

836
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 1: thing that happens. It happens all the time to journalists. Um.

837
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 1: But she continued to talk to Tara, particularly after Tara

838
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 1: started coming forward with stories that like Biden now had

839
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 1: sexually assaulted her. Her article is interesting for that reason

840
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: because she's she's clearly very sympathetic to tera Um. She's

841
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 1: also trying to do her due diligence as a journalist here,

842
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 1: and again, as with the PBS story, it ends on

843
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: a very inconclusive note, like there's not a smoking gun here,

844
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 1: if that's what you're looking for. But I do think

845
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 1: Laura's Vox article is probably the best analysis of this

846
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 1: that I found. Yeah, hmm, yeah, yeah, because there's not

847
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 1: going to be a smoking gun. No, yeah, and it

848
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: wor that's what I echoing what I said at the

849
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 1: beginning of the episode. It's like, yes, I think it's

850
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 1: important to do due diligence and and check everything that

851
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 1: you can, but at the end of the day, it's

852
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: hard to believe that we'll have a definitive answer on this.

853
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 1: And to me, I think it's really really important if

854
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 1: we are trying to change the culture where sniffing someone's

855
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 1: hair isn't there's no no longer a question as to

856
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 1: whether or not that's appropriate, or you know, uh, believing women,

857
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: believing that powerful men take advantage and abuse women every day.

858
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:05,720
Speaker 1: You know, if this is a lesson that we're actually

859
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 1: gonna have take root as a society, it is very

860
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 1: important that we hold ourselves to the standard that we uh,

861
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,760
Speaker 1: you know, preach about, you know what I mean, it's

862
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:23,839
Speaker 1: very important that we say, you know what, there is

863
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: a compelling case to be made that she is telling

864
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 1: the truth and Yeah, she might be problematic. Yeah, all

865
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: of this stuff, you know, they're they're both of those

866
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: things can be true at the same time. And and

867
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 1: if I'm going to vote for Joe Biden, I need

868
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 1: to know who he is or I have to understood,

869
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 1: I have to accept that this might be something that's

870
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 1: a part of him. And I'm not gonna just relax

871
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 1: and let our leaders off the hook, do you know

872
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 1: what I mean? It's lesson that I hope we've metabolized

873
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 1: throughout the last four years. You know, especially as we

874
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 1: criticize Obama more, we look back and we're like, oh,

875
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 1: wait a minute, he wasn't exactly the person that we

876
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: said he was. We just got complacent, we were relieved

877
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 1: to not have Bush anymore, and we let this and

878
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 1: we let it. We let it skate, you know what

879
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 1: I mean? And if we win, I need we need

880
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 1: to be able to do that, is my point. Yeah,

881
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:20,879
Speaker 1: I go back and forth, and whether or not that's

882
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 1: going to happen, we're capable of doing that. The discourse

883
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: around this seems to indicate that not right away. The

884
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 1: letter next to someone's name is what determines this kind

885
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 1: of thing. Yeah, I remember even talking about like back

886
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 1: in the cabanat days. Uh oh those days. Remember, well

887
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 1: this idea and like it's a lifetime appointment too, so

888
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 1: I think that has a little more bearing on it.

889
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:48,439
Speaker 1: But like this idea, you know, it's not it wasn't

890
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: like a court of law about like whether or not

891
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 1: that happened. Yeah, it wasn't this this idea of like,

892
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 1: well it has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

893
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,280
Speaker 1: But in this kind of situation, especially it's a lifetime ointment. Um,

894
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 1: it's more about like public perception. Um, it's not about

895
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 1: being beyond a reasonable doubt. There was doubt. There's still

896
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 1: doubt in people's minds. Uh. An overwhelming number of people

897
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: still think he is guilty. It's one of those things where,

898
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 1: like whatever happened with the vote, the responsible thing to

899
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 1: happen in that situation was for Brett Kavanaugh to acknowledge

900
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: that there is a lot of doubt in the public

901
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 1: and his position is a lifetime appointment and it's very

902
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 1: important that that integrity is upheld, and the responsible thing

903
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: for him to do would be too he can still

904
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:43,240
Speaker 1: say it didn't happen, but because of the ship show,

905
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 1: the responsible thing to do is to step down, not

906
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,319
Speaker 1: accept the nomination and let somebody else do it. Literally,

907
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 1: anyone else could have done that, and it would have

908
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,879
Speaker 1: upheld some sort of sense of integrity for that. Um.

909
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:56,800
Speaker 1: And I'm not even saying necessarily this has to happen

910
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 1: with Joe, but like if in talking about the me

911
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 1: too movement and like all all the stuff we've talked

912
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 1: about in this episode and other episodes, Um, wouldn't it

913
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:11,440
Speaker 1: be interesting and and uh powerful if Joe stepped aside

914
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:16,320
Speaker 1: because of I know, but like the number of the

915
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 1: number of women in the party who are really struggling

916
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 1: with this and are really uh disgusted that they're even

917
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 1: in this situation where they have to choose between these

918
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,280
Speaker 1: two people now and this guy. I know it won't happen,

919
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 1: but it's I keep going back to this that idea

920
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: of Kavanaugh, like, well, actually, here's what he should have

921
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 1: done that would have been great, best for everybody. Um,

922
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's frustrating. Yeah, what happened doesn't matter, no, Carol,

923
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 1: It's it's frustrating, and it's like so one of the

924
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 1: things that's kind of frustrating, Like there's a lot that's

925
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 1: frustrating about this one of them is just sort of

926
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:00,080
Speaker 1: the fact to which all that clearly matters now is

927
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 1: is what you believe politically. If you're a if you're

928
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:06,359
Speaker 1: a Democrat and a committed Democrat, Joe's innocent. If you're

929
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 1: a Republican, he's guilty. And if you're um on the

930
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 1: left side of the party and are angry that Sanders

931
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 1: didn't get the nomination, he's also guilty. And you know,

932
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:17,319
Speaker 1: there there's an amount of people in there who are

933
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 1: trying to make their decision based on the evidence, but

934
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 1: there's an awful lot of people who are just kind

935
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 1: of looking for like, if you want an excuse to

936
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 1: think that her allegations aren't credible, plenty of chum has

937
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,279
Speaker 1: been put out there for that to be possible. If

938
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,479
Speaker 1: you want to believe her allegations are credible, there's plenty

939
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 1: to latch onto. And this is kind of the nature

940
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 1: of truth in our society now. It's not it doesn't

941
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 1: exist anymore um, And like, there's a lot that's frustrating

942
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: about that. One of the things that's angry is that,

943
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: like all of the articles, all of the authors behind

944
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 1: the articles I read today are kind of being attacked

945
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:49,840
Speaker 1: by folks on the left is like being part of

946
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 1: a smear campaign against terror read and that's very fair

947
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 1: for um the political article. There's some criticisms to make

948
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: the PBS article. I don't feel like Laura McGann at

949
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 1: vox is smearing terror read I I We'll get into

950
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: her article a little bit more. I think it's a

951
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 1: very responsible piece of journalism. And it's frustrating to me

952
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 1: that we can't because of the politicization of this. We

953
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 1: can't even really analyze this without being like people being

954
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 1: attacked all around, Like no matter what you do, you're

955
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 1: going to get torn up in in cases like Laura's

956
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:21,359
Speaker 1: for just the simple act of like, all right, I'm

957
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:23,919
Speaker 1: going to I am someone who reports on this ship.

958
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 1: I am somebody who believes that this is a problem.

959
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:27,839
Speaker 1: I'm someone who is a deep understanding of the fact

960
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 1: of why women don't come forward in cases like this.

961
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 1: And I've been talking with Tara for a while. I'm

962
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 1: going to do my best to write an article about

963
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,399
Speaker 1: everything we know and don't know. Oh now I'm being

964
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 1: accused of being part of a smear campaign. Um. It's

965
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 1: very frustrating. Um. She makes a really good point, which

966
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 1: is that. UM. One of the things that you have

967
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 1: to do, since there's not going to be an objective

968
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 1: yes or note of this, is you look at the

969
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 1: corroborating evidence, UM, and including like other allegations. And one

970
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 1: of the points she makes is that like when allegations

971
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 1: were made against Harvey Weinstein or against uh Bill Cosby,

972
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 1: it wasn't he said, she said it was. Here are

973
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,720
Speaker 1: a ton of different people over the course of years,

974
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 1: in a lot of cases that whose stories we have collected,

975
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:15,840
Speaker 1: that all line up in a variety of ways, and

976
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 1: that are all very consistent. And you have something similar

977
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 1: with Donald Trump, UM, And it is worth noting, and

978
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 1: it is worth pointing out that that does not exist

979
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 1: with Joe Biden. There's overwhelming evidence that he has touched

980
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 1: people in creepy ways that made them feel deeply uncomfortable,

981
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 1: and that that is not okay or good. UM. Terr

982
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 1: Read is the only person to accuse him of explicit

983
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:37,759
Speaker 1: like something that you could qualify as rape, um, And

984
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 1: that that is a a a worthwhile thing to point out.

985
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 1: And I think I want to read an exit from

986
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 1: Laura's article because the way that she talks about this,

987
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 1: I think is very responsible so I'm going to quote

988
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 1: from that. Now, eight women have now said they've been

989
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,840
Speaker 1: made uncomfortable by Biden in public settings. Read is the

990
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:54,880
Speaker 1: lone woman to accuse him of sexual assault. This is

991
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 1: a situation out of her control. But it means that

992
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:59,280
Speaker 1: reporters can't build a story about Biden around a pattern

993
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:02,760
Speaker 1: of behavior where multiple accusers boost one another story. Instead,

994
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,319
Speaker 1: reporters are looking at Read's account in isolation, and that

995
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 1: account has changed. Um. And then she notes, you know,

996
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:09,840
Speaker 1: there are a number of ways that accounts changed. And

997
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:12,360
Speaker 1: she also note that that's not uncommon with stories like this,

998
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:14,959
Speaker 1: that people's memories are flawed and perfect, and like, yeah,

999
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 1: that that is that is a thing that happens. That's noteworthy, Um,

1000
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: And it's noteworthy that like Since then, a former neighbor

1001
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 1: of Reads, linnar Lacasse, has come forward. In an every

1002
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 1: with Business Insider, she said that Reid spoke about the

1003
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 1: harassment and assault claims in I asked Read why she

1004
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 1: hadn't mentioned the cast to me a year ago, or

1005
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 1: to help her, or to the first few reporters she

1006
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 1: told about her assault allegation, including The New York Times,

1007
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 1: which is working in a deep dive into her story.

1008
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:39,800
Speaker 1: At the same time, she said La Cass hadn't seemed

1009
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 1: like a relevant source because she talked to her two

1010
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 1: years after the alleged incident took place. Read added that

1011
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:46,880
Speaker 1: she told reporters about two other anonymous friends later who

1012
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:49,360
Speaker 1: hadn't seemed relevant to her either. When asked a similar

1013
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 1: question by the Associated Press, who had been working on

1014
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 1: the story, to Read didn't respond. And this is like

1015
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,840
Speaker 1: number one, Like, I get why people are are poking

1016
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 1: at this because again, as as Laura points out, you

1017
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 1: have to do like all you have is this one

1018
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 1: story to poke into. But also I get that this

1019
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:09,439
Speaker 1: traumatic thing you probably talked to a number of people

1020
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 1: about and you don't think of all of them immediately. Yeah, yeah,

1021
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 1: but then you get to this frustrating thing where like,

1022
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 1: um so, when Helper asks Read why she didn't mention

1023
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,399
Speaker 1: the assault allegation originally, she responds by blaming the media. Quote,

1024
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 1: while I was going to tell the whole thing, the

1025
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 1: whole history with Biden, but the way I was being

1026
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 1: questioned it made me so uncomfortable that I didn't trust it.

1027
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 1: And no offense to the reporters out there. But it's

1028
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 1: maybe just something that can't be learned how to talk

1029
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 1: to somebody who got because I really just got shut down.

1030
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 1: And the narrative they really wanted to it to be

1031
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:40,399
Speaker 1: was that it wasn't a sexual thing, like I don't

1032
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 1: say it's sexual, and so I was like, Okay, I

1033
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 1: guess I can't really say the whole story. Um. And again, Laura,

1034
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:48,320
Speaker 1: the person writing this article is one of the women

1035
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 1: that Read was talking to at this time, and Laura

1036
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 1: notes quote, but that wasn't the narrative I wanted. I

1037
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:55,319
Speaker 1: wanted the truth, and I certainly had no qualms about

1038
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 1: the accusations being of sexual misconduct. Reporters that many outlets,

1039
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,399
Speaker 1: including the reporters reads folk to have not shied away

1040
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:06,319
Speaker 1: from reporting on detailed sexual assault allegations. Um. And that's

1041
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 1: a good point for one thing. Just looking at Laura's history,

1042
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 1: I have no doubt that she would have been perfectly

1043
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: happy to have been the one to break this story. Um.

1044
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:16,720
Speaker 1: And Laura also notes quote in the interview with Helper,

1045
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 1: Read said that she contacted someone at the Washington Post

1046
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 1: and then they never really followed up. The Washington Post

1047
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 1: said that it interviewed Read on multiple occasions, both this

1048
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 1: year and last, as well as people she said she

1049
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 1: told of the assault, claiming more than half a dozen

1050
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:31,320
Speaker 1: former staffers of Biden's Senate office, a fact Read conceded

1051
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 1: to me in an interview. In a recent conversation, I

1052
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:35,360
Speaker 1: asked Read why she would say the media was shutting

1053
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 1: her down when she was initially so adamant with me

1054
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 1: and other outlets this wasn't a misconduct story. The only

1055
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 1: answer she gave is that she was speaking about the

1056
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 1: response to her claims collectively, and in her opinion, the

1057
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 1: added detail still fit her construct that this is not

1058
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:49,320
Speaker 1: a story about sexual misconduct, because she told me sexual

1059
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 1: assault itself is about power. So I don't know, like again,

1060
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:59,120
Speaker 1: this is this is it's complicated as hell, um that

1061
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:03,880
Speaker 1: you know, this is conjecture. I just listened to that,

1062
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:08,360
Speaker 1: and I think about myself in that situation or her,

1063
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 1: you know, you know, like what could be motivations for

1064
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 1: with holding some of that information at that point, and

1065
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 1: you know, this is somebody that is being lauded as

1066
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 1: especial at that time too, people were pushing for a

1067
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:29,600
Speaker 1: lot of people wanted Biden to be then not you know,

1068
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:33,680
Speaker 1: to to to be running for president and that's a

1069
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:36,239
Speaker 1: scary thing to go up against, you know what I mean,

1070
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:40,240
Speaker 1: even and and me too was happening, but we hadn't

1071
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 1: really seen that much progress with it. Weinstein only recently

1072
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 1: got convicted, you know what I mean, Like, I think

1073
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:54,960
Speaker 1: that there I can understand a world where even at

1074
00:56:55,000 --> 00:57:00,359
Speaker 1: that point, not being comfortable sharing the whole story, I can't. Um,

1075
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that it isn't also concerned a problematic

1076
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 1: element of it. I'm not saying that that isn't an

1077
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:12,880
Speaker 1: important point. I'm nearly you know, hypothesizing and trying to

1078
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 1: put myself in that position, you know, and be empathetic

1079
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:19,240
Speaker 1: and if we're if we're trying to actually look at

1080
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 1: this accurately, like there is there are things to be

1081
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 1: concerned about in her Like one of the things that's

1082
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 1: been brought up believing the PBS article is that the

1083
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 1: specific place where she alleges the assault took place is

1084
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 1: incredibly crowded, um and has been forever and always has

1085
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 1: a heavy amount of tourist and foot traffic. And that

1086
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 1: doesn't mean it didn't happen because also like details get

1087
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 1: muddled up, especially of location over time. Um. But like

1088
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:48,400
Speaker 1: it's it's that's a worthwhile thing to point out, UM.

1089
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 1: And Laura McGann points out that UM quote. A few

1090
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:54,600
Speaker 1: weeks before Reid spoke to Helper, she applied to a

1091
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 1: tweet from grim the guy who wrote the Intercept article

1092
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,240
Speaker 1: about this, semi to tease that a story was coming out. UM,

1093
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 1: and the tweet was Ryan said, Um tweeted I had

1094
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 1: to had Biden v Sanders contest were forced voters to

1095
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 1: take a close look at Biden again that went very

1096
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:11,400
Speaker 1: badly for him last time. And Tara responded to this, UM, yep,

1097
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 1: timing wait for it, tick talk uh. And this was

1098
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 1: posted on March three, and Grimm says that he didn't

1099
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 1: speak with her for the first time until until March eighth,

1100
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 1: a week later. That's a thing to note, like it

1101
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 1: and it doesn't. That doesn't look great for her, So like, yeah,

1102
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:30,160
Speaker 1: that's that's worth noting. It's also possible, like I don't know,

1103
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 1: people have said that. That's like, yeah, I don't know,

1104
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:36,880
Speaker 1: it's a thing worth noting. Yeahs noting. I guess it's

1105
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 1: just like if she she's trying to get this story out,

1106
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's but see that's

1107
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 1: a that is a fair approach to this, and I

1108
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 1: think that for me is what I want to take

1109
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:55,240
Speaker 1: away to be because again we're not I don't know

1110
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 1: that we're going to have an answer, but I'm talking

1111
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 1: about how we have this conversation, how we treat people

1112
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 1: that come forward. There's this whole believe women articles circulating,

1113
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 1: and it's just so frustrating how we approach believe women

1114
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:15,440
Speaker 1: and you know, the character assassinations feel irrelevant, something like

1115
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 1: that a discerpancy that is something to fuck that political

1116
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 1: article and funk the person who wrote it. It's difficult,

1117
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 1: and like I don't want to just be blanket saying

1118
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:31,760
Speaker 1: you know, she's not lying because we don't have the answer.

1119
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:34,760
Speaker 1: But I don't want to be somebody that sees the

1120
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 1: worst in people and uses that as a weapon either,

1121
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:45,560
Speaker 1: And you know anyway, end of sentence. I mean, yeah,

1122
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 1: like it's it's you, uh, take these allegations seriously and

1123
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:54,959
Speaker 1: don't like just try to rip the woman apart. Yes,

1124
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:57,640
Speaker 1: which is I do think if you are if you

1125
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:02,360
Speaker 1: are interested in journalism and like what what good journalism

1126
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:05,760
Speaker 1: versus bad journalism is? These three articles are a really

1127
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:09,640
Speaker 1: good illustration because they run the gamut of On the

1128
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 1: On the irresponsible journalism side, you have the political article,

1129
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 1: which is a hit piece, um and very gross for

1130
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:21,280
Speaker 1: that and I I think provides almost no information that

1131
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 1: is relevant and evaluating um uh this case. Then you

1132
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 1: have a want to hear the repossessed car story A yeah, yeah, yeah,

1133
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:34,880
Speaker 1: I don't care. Yeah. In the middle, you have the

1134
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:38,160
Speaker 1: PBS article, which starts from a very good position, has

1135
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:40,560
Speaker 1: some serious flaws because it doesn't take some things into

1136
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 1: account that it really ought to have, including Anita Hill,

1137
01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:45,000
Speaker 1: and including you know, the fact that if you're going

1138
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:47,439
Speaker 1: to talk about um, Terry read being in consistent, let's

1139
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:50,640
Speaker 1: talk about Joe Biden's own inconsistencies. And then at the

1140
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 1: other end of it, I think, and this is, you know,

1141
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:54,760
Speaker 1: the Vox article is almost more of a column because

1142
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:56,760
Speaker 1: it is written in this author's voice, and it is

1143
01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,439
Speaker 1: based in part on her personal experience talking to Tara

1144
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:02,520
Speaker 1: for a very long time, and her experience in general

1145
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 1: covering stories like this and very much caring about telling

1146
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 1: these kinds of stories. And I think it is a

1147
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:11,520
Speaker 1: very responsible article. And it's worth noting that the most

1148
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:15,480
Speaker 1: responsible article in the bunch doesn't lead you to really

1149
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 1: feel one way or the other about the truth of

1150
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:20,760
Speaker 1: the case. It's just it's it's this is like it

1151
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:23,560
Speaker 1: which is frustrating, and I know is like not the

1152
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 1: place anyone wants to end this on, UM because you

1153
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 1: want to, you want to know, but we won't. And

1154
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:35,120
Speaker 1: acknowledging how frustrating it is and that we won't is

1155
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:39,200
Speaker 1: I think part of what needs to uh yeah be

1156
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 1: mentioned when you're reporting on this kind of thing. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah,

1157
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 1: A point of certainty will never be like for example

1158
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 1: of how hard it is to get certainty. There is

1159
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 1: still a debate among scholars about the extent to which

1160
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:58,440
Speaker 1: Hitler was aware of the Holocaust, because Adolf Hitler was

1161
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:02,760
Speaker 1: was was very um committed to not putting certain shipped

1162
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 1: down on paper like the annihilation of multiple in ethnic

1163
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:09,440
Speaker 1: groups UM. And so his name is not on a

1164
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:12,680
Speaker 1: whole lot of documents tied to the Holocaust. UM. Now,

1165
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:17,400
Speaker 1: I I think of credible historians at this point agree

1166
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 1: that he knew and was very involved and understood exactly

1167
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 1: what was happening and was in fact a major advocate

1168
01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 1: for it and devoted military resources to um uh to

1169
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:31,080
Speaker 1: allowing the Holocaust to continue, even when those resources were

1170
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:33,520
Speaker 1: needed up at the Eastern Front. There's very little debate

1171
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:36,480
Speaker 1: about that now, but there were decades of debate, and

1172
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:39,640
Speaker 1: it was decades of people trolling through archives and building

1173
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:43,040
Speaker 1: the case because he had just been kind of careful

1174
01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:45,400
Speaker 1: about not sticking his name on documents, building the case

1175
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:47,680
Speaker 1: that he knew exactly what was going on. That was

1176
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:53,200
Speaker 1: the work of lifetimes. Um, and that's you know, it's

1177
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 1: the truth is a shitty business to be in. It's

1178
01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 1: the only place I can end this on these days. Yeah.

1179
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:06,800
Speaker 1: I finally popped up on Facebook and gotten to a

1180
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:10,240
Speaker 1: conversation so don't do that person, and it really turned

1181
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 1: into Q and on stuff really quickly. Oh great, Yeah,

1182
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 1: that's a problem. You did this to yourself, Cody. I well,

1183
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:23,200
Speaker 1: and that's what really hurts. A friend of mine was like, hey,

1184
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:25,120
Speaker 1: sold for from my school is talking about this stuff.

1185
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:28,040
Speaker 1: Do you want to have some fun? I was like, no,

1186
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:34,919
Speaker 1: I was right, it wasn't fun. No Ah, good job guys,

1187
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:39,480
Speaker 1: we made it the episode. Good job. Everybody clear on

1188
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:44,960
Speaker 1: what to do now? No crystal clear everything everything is

1189
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 1: in order. Yeah, well, you guys can check us out online.

1190
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:52,160
Speaker 1: It can give you that. That's kind of fun and

1191
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:57,640
Speaker 1: positive way to end it online at worst, your pot

1192
01:03:57,720 --> 01:04:02,240
Speaker 1: and the inctant that the Twitter and this stuff like that. Um,

1193
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:07,440
Speaker 1: yeah you can believe that for sure. Yeah I am.

1194
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:11,960
Speaker 1: I am excited, um because I I think there are

1195
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:14,080
Speaker 1: things in here that are going to piss off everybody,

1196
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:15,920
Speaker 1: which is never my goal. Actually, I'm not one of

1197
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:18,280
Speaker 1: those things that people who's like, if you're if everyone's

1198
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:21,040
Speaker 1: angry at you, you're telling the truth. Yeah, but this

1199
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 1: is one of those things where I don't know how

1200
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 1: to actually tell how I feel having analyzed all these

1201
01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:28,720
Speaker 1: stories and not have there be something in there that

1202
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 1: pisces off everybody, um, which I don't like. I wish

1203
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:34,240
Speaker 1: that wasn't the case, but this is how I feel

1204
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:37,640
Speaker 1: about these articles. Well, we live in a very complicated

1205
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:42,200
Speaker 1: time where there are where it's too complicated. It's it's

1206
01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 1: sometimes too complicated to have a definitive opinion on something.

1207
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:49,080
Speaker 1: But you can do your very best and you can

1208
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:53,479
Speaker 1: sort through what you're presented and be critical of it. Yeah,

1209
01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:56,800
Speaker 1: and it's okay to say I don't know. Yeah, I

1210
01:04:56,800 --> 01:05:00,440
Speaker 1: don't know. It's okay to say I don't know. I

1211
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:05,240
Speaker 1: sure wish we had a candidate who was selfless enough

1212
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 1: to be like, but also like, yeah, I don't know.

1213
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:10,040
Speaker 1: Fuck it funk all of this ship. I hate everything.

1214
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:19,800
Speaker 1: You know. We got a big Trump, Yeah, Roxy clor Quinn. Yeah,

1215
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 1: I feel like that drug maybe yeahs might be the

1216
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:26,040
Speaker 1: answer to our question. Hi, Droxy Clark quin becomes the

1217
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:29,600
Speaker 1: big hero of the year. We build a statue to it. Yeah,

1218
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:33,160
Speaker 1: cover a Time magazine. He might not be the hero

1219
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:35,880
Speaker 1: we need, but it's the hero we got. Yeah, the

1220
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:39,400
Speaker 1: drug that made Trump's heart explode. Thank you, comrade Hydroxy

1221
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 1: Clark Quinny. You live long enough, become the villain or

1222
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:48,520
Speaker 1: you die. Then this just all becomes the Democrats long

1223
01:05:48,600 --> 01:05:52,160
Speaker 1: game to trick him into having his heart explode. Yeah,

1224
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:57,560
Speaker 1: boy got him? Yea God. I wish the Democrats were

1225
01:05:57,640 --> 01:06:01,720
Speaker 1: capable of a long game. Yeah, I don't. I wish

1226
01:06:01,760 --> 01:06:06,040
Speaker 1: they were any game. Yeah right, even as I don't think.

1227
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:08,439
Speaker 1: I don't think I would like the goals of their

1228
01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:13,240
Speaker 1: long game, don't yeh. Didn't we end this episode like

1229
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 1: five minutes ago? We did, but we're all still frustrated

1230
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:28,160
Speaker 1: by the year. Yeah, alright, bye later, everything everything so

1231
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:36,080
Speaker 1: dull again. I tried Worst Year Ever is a production

1232
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:38,959
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio For more podcasts from my heart Radio,

1233
01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:42,000
Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever

1234
01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:43,400
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.