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Speaker 1: Hi, guys, and welcome to another new episode of You

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Speaker 1: Need Therapy. My name is Cat, I am the host,

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Speaker 1: and I'm so glad you're here, especially today. Before we

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Speaker 1: get started, I do want to say this is not therapy.

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Speaker 1: This is just a therapist talking to you. And isn't

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Speaker 1: that nice Sometimes we can just like click on a

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Speaker 1: therapist and she gets to speak to you. But again,

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Speaker 1: this is not therapy. So the episode today, it was

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Speaker 1: gonna just be me talking to you, guys, but I

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Speaker 1: give you a little surprise at the end, so just

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Speaker 1: wait for it. This episode content and topic has been

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Speaker 1: something that has been on my mind for a while.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna be talking about call out culture and cancel culture.

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Speaker 1: And I talked about cancel culture last week on Couch

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Speaker 1: Talks and was like, I can't do this whole thing

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Speaker 1: in ten minutes. So here we are now. I actually

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Speaker 1: really started this episode months ago, working on it just

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Speaker 1: about revenge and call out culture, and the more I

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Speaker 1: started thinking about it, the more I was doing research

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Speaker 1: and writing, the more it became about other things, enter

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Speaker 1: cancel culture. So today we are on a journey. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you're going to go through it as I'm moving through it,

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Speaker 1: and I'm very excited you around this journey with me,

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Speaker 1: because being here alone is no fun at all. So

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Speaker 1: I think we're just going to start. Let's just jump in.

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Speaker 1: So my observation is that we live in a very

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Speaker 1: call OUTI culture these days. Now, before we get started,

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Speaker 1: I want to be very very very very very clear,

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Speaker 1: because I have learned it's easy to read the things

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Speaker 1: that anybody says the wrong way, and I hate when

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Speaker 1: that happens. So I want to say, as a victim

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Speaker 1: of abuse or a survivor of abuse, you have every

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Speaker 1: single right to call out and name your abuser, and

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Speaker 1: I believe that can be very helpful to assist in

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Speaker 1: disempower are in the ability for someone to continue to

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Speaker 1: cause harm. And also let it be known that that

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Speaker 1: is not how all survivors choose to heal. And that's

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Speaker 1: also okay. There is nothing wrong with either sides of

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Speaker 1: those I'm not talking about that today. This episode is

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Speaker 1: not directed towards any type of abuse. When I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about call out. In the next couple of minutes where

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Speaker 1: I'm talking, I want you to hear that very loud

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Speaker 1: and clear. I am more talking about the day to

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Speaker 1: day inconsistencies that we're seen in people who hurt us

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Speaker 1: and f y I news flash, p s A. Just

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Speaker 1: because somebody hurt us, it does not mean we were abused.

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Speaker 1: It also does not always mean that what they did

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Speaker 1: was wrong, and that can be kind of confusing. But

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Speaker 1: the truth is when we get hurt, a lot of

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Speaker 1: times we're getting hurt by the filter also that we

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Speaker 1: live with. So that's what I'm saying when I talk

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Speaker 1: about us like reading into things or making assumptions or

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Speaker 1: how I even was talking about the beginning of this.

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Speaker 1: If I don't want to be misunderstood, we misunderstand things,

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Speaker 1: and just because we have decided that something has been

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Speaker 1: one thing, it doesn't mean that's really what it was.

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Speaker 1: So there is an ability for us to be hurt

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Speaker 1: without somebody doing something wrong. Now, we also many times

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Speaker 1: are hurt because people do shitty things that are wrong.

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Speaker 1: So there's both sides to that. But I think we

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Speaker 1: live in a world where everybody wants to be black

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Speaker 1: and white and it wants to be good and bad,

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Speaker 1: and that's not the world we live, and it's gray,

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Speaker 1: and so I just want to put it out there

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Speaker 1: that that's a possibility. Now when we do get hurt,

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Speaker 1: it's a very human response to want to feel better, obviously,

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Speaker 1: and there's nothing innately wrong with that either. So what

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Speaker 1: we need to do is really assess the patterns we

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Speaker 1: move through to find that healing. With the ever growing

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Speaker 1: social media platforms, we have the ability to create viral

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Speaker 1: posts that reach an insane amount of people at the

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Speaker 1: drop of a hat. Basically anybody can do this and

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Speaker 1: that's a lot of power. Now with that power, that

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Speaker 1: is a lot of responsibility. And I talk about this

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Speaker 1: so so so often clients experiences like breakups can turn

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Speaker 1: into this desire to expose someone, to expose an x

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Speaker 1: for every harmful thing that they have done immediately, And

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Speaker 1: I get the idea behind it. Trust me, I have

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Speaker 1: been there. Trust me, I understand. I got out of

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Speaker 1: a very harmful relationship years back, and I so so

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Speaker 1: so bad wanted to tell everybody about how horrible this

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Speaker 1: human was. And he was somebody who had a lot

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Speaker 1: of power, and he was very well liked by the public,

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to expose him, like I wanted to

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Speaker 1: call him out and like tell everybody who this person was.

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Speaker 1: But I didn't. I vented to my friends I cried

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Speaker 1: to my therapist, I journaled, I wrote at all of

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Speaker 1: those things, But as much as I wanted to, I

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Speaker 1: didn't air all of the insides of my experiences with

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Speaker 1: him to the masses for multiple reasons. One of those

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Speaker 1: reasons is I firmly believe that unkind people expose themselves.

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Speaker 1: And I used the word unkind because I don't like

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Speaker 1: to use the word the phrase bad people because I

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Speaker 1: have a hard time with the idea that someone can

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Speaker 1: be a bad person unless they literally are a sociopath,

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Speaker 1: which that's a whole podcast for another thing of what

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Speaker 1: that even means. And it's also not my job to

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Speaker 1: change people's opinions about others. It's my job to make

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Speaker 1: sure I am living according to who I am, and

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Speaker 1: that's really it. I like to let other people be

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Speaker 1: in charge of what actually happens based on their behavior

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Speaker 1: and relationships and all that. And like I said, unkind

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Speaker 1: people expose themselves. They might not do it in the

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Speaker 1: way you want or in the timeline you want, but

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Speaker 1: it will be done. Just trust me. Also, you may

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Speaker 1: never know if it happens right. So if we get

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Speaker 1: out of relationships where we separate ourselves and people We

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Speaker 1: don't have all of the information about other people's lives,

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Speaker 1: so we don't know what's really going on or what

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Speaker 1: the insides of them feel like, and so I just

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Speaker 1: like to trust that it will be taken care of.

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Speaker 1: Just because someone looks like their life is going great

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Speaker 1: on the outside, it does not mean it really is.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like we we say that all the time,

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Speaker 1: but it's something that we forget to actually implant in

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Speaker 1: our rains. I kind of like the idea of letting

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Speaker 1: other people be their own billboard, you know, like, let

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Speaker 1: other people be like their own advertisement, let them show

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Speaker 1: the world who they are. And again, if it looks

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Speaker 1: all nice and peachy and beautiful, we don't know if

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Speaker 1: that's even the truth. And also that can change in

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Speaker 1: the blink of an eye. Again, it's a natural desire

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Speaker 1: to want to still in a sense right or wrong

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Speaker 1: for someone who has hurt you. But I think what

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Speaker 1: we really want in those moments is to feel better.

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Speaker 1: Like going back to the beginning, it's that we're wanting

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Speaker 1: is to feel better, and that may make us feel

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Speaker 1: better for a second, but it's not long lasting, and

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Speaker 1: what we really need to do is dig into the

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Speaker 1: truth of what we know and find firmness in that.

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Speaker 1: In more simple terms, worry about you worry about us

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Speaker 1: more than we worry about them. So I will say

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Speaker 1: something that's been very helpful to discern. If I want

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Speaker 1: to put some information out in the world, is using

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Speaker 1: these three questions. I use these three questions for a

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Speaker 1: lot of things, but this fits here, so I just

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Speaker 1: want to put it out there. So the first question

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Speaker 1: is does this need to be said? The second question

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Speaker 1: is does this need to be said right now? And

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Speaker 1: the third question is does this need to be said

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Speaker 1: by me? And if you answered yes to all these questions,

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Speaker 1: then go for it, but make sure you are being honest.

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Speaker 1: And if you answer no to any of these questions,

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Speaker 1: I suggest taking a pause and really assessing the why

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Speaker 1: behind the what you want to say. Also, I think

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Speaker 1: it's worth mentioning that people can change now. Disclaimer, we

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Speaker 1: can't bet on this when it comes to toxic relationships.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of us spend a lot of

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Speaker 1: time hoping that people will change, that we don't have

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Speaker 1: to do hard, scary things. But when somebody really learned

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Speaker 1: about themselves, the world or others in other people's opinions,

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Speaker 1: actions can change, they really can. And this is where

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Speaker 1: I combine the ideas between call out culture and revenge

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Speaker 1: culture and cancel culture. And my hope is that the

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Speaker 1: future that call out culture motivates shifts and that the

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Speaker 1: intent is to let someone know that they have done

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Speaker 1: something that was harmful or hurtful, so they have the

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Speaker 1: opportunity to shift and change and grow. But right now

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Speaker 1: I see a lot of calling out and then the

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Speaker 1: immediate canceling of those people were on this journey, right

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Speaker 1: we're to migrate from revenge to call out to cancel

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Speaker 1: culture and talk about that for a little bit. And

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Speaker 1: what I want to kind of cover today is what

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Speaker 1: is cancel culture? Does it have mayor or value should exist?

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Speaker 1: What are the pros and what are the problematic parts

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Speaker 1: of this thing? And I talked a little bit about

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Speaker 1: this on couch Shocks. Like I said, so some of

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Speaker 1: this might be a little bit repetitive, but for the

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Speaker 1: sake of this episode, we're going to revisit all of

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Speaker 1: the things on this journey. So what is cancel culture. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think it's like the bigger, stronger, scarier, like step

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Speaker 1: brother of call out culture. So like call out culture

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Speaker 1: says like screw you. You did this thing. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to expose you. Cancel culture says, we've exposed you. Now

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Speaker 1: we're going to take away all your power and basically

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Speaker 1: put like a it's like a scarlet letter, like a

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Speaker 1: red X over this person's face or body or whatever

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Speaker 1: it is. Now, if you just were to ask Wikipedia

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Speaker 1: what cancel culture is, this is what you would get.

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Speaker 1: Cancel culture is a modern form of ostracism in which

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Speaker 1: someone is thrust out of social or professional circles, whether

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Speaker 1: it be online, on so to media, or in person.

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Speaker 1: Those who are subject to this ostracism are said to

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Speaker 1: have been, in quotes canceled. Now, remember that we learned

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Speaker 1: when we were in high school that when we tried

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Speaker 1: to use Wikipedia for our research projects, this was not

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Speaker 1: to be a trusted source and we would get in

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Speaker 1: trouble for that. Correct. I know that I did many

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Speaker 1: times I tried to do that. Let's see if that's true.

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Speaker 1: Let's see if we can trust Wikipedia for this one,

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Speaker 1: because honestly, I use Wikipedia for so many things, not professional,

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Speaker 1: but I want those people that gets like sidetracked by

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Speaker 1: learning about things. So I like find something, I immediately

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Speaker 1: go there and I'm like thinking that, like, yes, Wikipedia

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Speaker 1: is the god of facts and it's not tangent, let's

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Speaker 1: come back. It's a crazy journey we're on. So the

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Speaker 1: idea of Cancel culture, honestly, I think, is to dismantle

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Speaker 1: the systems of oppression that have allowed things such as racism, sexism,

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Speaker 1: and all the isms to flourish. It seems like it

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Speaker 1: is acting as a top down versus a bottom up approach,

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Speaker 1: meaning that you crack it this little by little from

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Speaker 1: the top to get closer to the source, rather than

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Speaker 1: by just going straight to the source. And I have

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Speaker 1: so many things to say about that. It's almost like

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Speaker 1: you're poking holes in a hose in order to get

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Speaker 1: the water to stop from coming out so fast, rather

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Speaker 1: than just turning the hose off itself, because for some

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Speaker 1: reason there's there must be a roadblock to turning the

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Speaker 1: hose off right. And it works, I suppose, but is

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Speaker 1: it efficient? And this is what I am not sold on.

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Speaker 1: I totally get the idea of cancel culture, I really do.

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Speaker 1: I get the idea behind what it's trying to do,

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Speaker 1: and I'm so for that, Like I don't want these

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Speaker 1: systems of oppression in place. Heck, no, but is it efficient?

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Speaker 1: Is the question. And if you go back to the

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Speaker 1: hose idea, now your hose has all these holes in it,

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Speaker 1: and like that's bummer, but like there's also still water

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Speaker 1: coming out, and like there's so many things about the

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Speaker 1: hose that are messed up now, and it's kind of

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Speaker 1: like cutting off your nose to inspite your face in

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Speaker 1: some ways. So what cancel culture does. It promotes the

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Speaker 1: idea of canceling, getting rid of people, brands, shows, movies

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Speaker 1: due to what some consider to be offensive, problematic remarks

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Speaker 1: or ideologies. And I think that's where I get stuck,

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Speaker 1: is like we're canceling people and not systems. I think

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Speaker 1: we mean to be canceling systems. What it is set

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Speaker 1: up to remove things that are outside of the new

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Speaker 1: or desired social norms, which we create new in different

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Speaker 1: social norms as we learn more information. And that's okay,

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Speaker 1: but this is really not new. We've done this kind

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Speaker 1: of thing for years. I think this has been patterns

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Speaker 1: of how we've worked for years in order to kind

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Speaker 1: of keep a status quo to an extent. Now, of course,

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Speaker 1: like I said, I believe that some of the things

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Speaker 1: we're trying to cancel should be canceled. You're listening to me,

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Speaker 1: like walk through this as I speak. I don't have

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Speaker 1: all my thoughts put together. Heck, yes, I'm a hundred

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Speaker 1: cent for getting rid of some of these things that

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Speaker 1: people are doing and the systems and all that. But

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Speaker 1: when we get caught up in canceling a person is

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Speaker 1: where I get iffy, and so here is is where

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Speaker 1: we're going to take a turn. I could sit here

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Speaker 1: and talk about my beliefs in the research and I

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Speaker 1: have in all the things I've been doing the past

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks to learn about this, but I thought, hey,

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Speaker 1: that sounds very boring. So I invited my friend Paul

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Speaker 1: to come talk about this with me, because I think

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Speaker 1: he has a great perspective on this, and I like

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Speaker 1: learning with people, and I think conversations are really what

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Speaker 1: helps us learn and grow and change. Before I queue

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Speaker 1: this in, I would like to ask all of you

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Speaker 1: guys listening for all of the grace, because I'm giving

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Speaker 1: you the real raw cat, not the one that has

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Speaker 1: it all figured out. I mean, as you can tell,

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Speaker 1: because the beginnings of this have have been me kind

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Speaker 1: of like moving through my thoughts and actually, like I

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Speaker 1: don't know who the all figured out cat is. I

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Speaker 1: don't think she exists. So if you ever met her,

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Speaker 1: let me know where she is. I'm not saying everything

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Speaker 1: that I'm about too, and everything I have said and

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Speaker 1: everything I'm about to um say is right. I'm just

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Speaker 1: trying to learn with you guys and give you guys

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Speaker 1: a space to learn with me. So let's get to it.

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Speaker 1: Here is a little conversation I had with my friend

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Speaker 1: Paul about cancel culture, what it is, if it's helpful,

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Speaker 1: and what we need to do about it. All right,

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Speaker 1: so I have my friend Paul back for episode number two.

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Speaker 1: How does it feel. I'm glad to be bad he

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Speaker 1: turning guests. Yes, and everybody gets that honor. It's it's

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Speaker 1: a great honor. It is a great honor. So I

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Speaker 1: have asked Paul to come here because last week, when

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Speaker 1: I was answering the question on couch Talks about cancel culture,

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Speaker 1: I called Paul and he what couch couch Talks. You

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Speaker 1: don't listen to the Q and a episode on couch

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Speaker 1: Talks is the Q and a episode that comes out

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Speaker 1: every Wednesday. It's okay that you don't listen to it.

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Speaker 1: The first episode wasn't couch Talks. This is just the

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Speaker 1: podcast as you need therapy right Wednesday's episode. There's two

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Speaker 1: episodes a week now we're moving up. So that episode

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Speaker 1: is just Q and A where people email me questions

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Speaker 1: and I answer them. So you helped me answering the

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Speaker 1: question that was emailed in are we here? We're here?

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Speaker 1: We're happy to be here, okay. So I called Paul

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Speaker 1: and and we talked about I read him the question.

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Speaker 1: We talked about cancel culture and all that stuff, and

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Speaker 1: then it flowed into a long conversation. What was a

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Speaker 1: short conversation, but it could have been longer if we

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Speaker 1: didn't have things to do in places to go. And

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Speaker 1: I what I really enjoy about Paul is his ability

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Speaker 1: to have conversations with me about things that I don't

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Speaker 1: know what I'm talking about in a way that doesn't

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Speaker 1: make me feel stupid or dumb or afraid to say

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Speaker 1: the wrong thing. So thank you. And I will say,

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Speaker 1: which I've probably already said before, I don't like talking

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Speaker 1: about this stuff because it does make me uncomfortable. And

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Speaker 1: I like talking about things that I'm the expert in.

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Speaker 1: I'm not an expert in this, so I do my research.

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Speaker 1: I have conversations, and I talk to people who have

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Speaker 1: different and sometimes similar perspectives in order to make a

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Speaker 1: educated and appropriate opinion myself. So this is a conversation.

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Speaker 1: So I want you guys to take what you hear

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Speaker 1: with I don't have the right saying as a grain assault.

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Speaker 1: But we're not explaining facts that you have to believe,

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Speaker 1: else we're going to hate you or not like you,

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Speaker 1: or you can't sit with us. We are just having

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Speaker 1: a conversation about our experiences and what we believe based

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Speaker 1: on those experiences. Cool. That cool, Okay. I want you

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Speaker 1: to tell us, in your opinion and your experience what

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Speaker 1: cancel culture really is, in the nature of it and

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Speaker 1: the purpose of it, because when we talked about that,

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Speaker 1: that was helpful here in your perspective for me. I

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Speaker 1: think cancel culture is in short rage. For example, I

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Speaker 1: don't know how many of your listeners are into video

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Speaker 1: games or gaming or have have played a game. Everyone's

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Speaker 1: played a game where they get frustrated and they just quit.

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Speaker 1: I think cancel culture is just like something happens. You

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Speaker 1: hear about something and it's like I'm fed up, I quit,

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Speaker 1: or I cancel you or I cancel this thing, and

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Speaker 1: I think it's more of a feeling, which you know

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Speaker 1: is interesting. I'm going to cut you off because I

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Speaker 1: believe the majority of the time of rage comes out

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Speaker 1: of fear. Rages does not come out of anger. A

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Speaker 1: lot of times it comes out of fear, a build

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Speaker 1: up of unprocessed fear. So that makes sense, especially with

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Speaker 1: the things that are being canceled in our culture right now,

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Speaker 1: is there is a lot of fear behind the things

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Speaker 1: that are being canceled. Does that make sense? Like so

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Speaker 1: much sense. There's fear. Fear not of what's presently being

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Speaker 1: canceled per se, but fear of it following the same

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Speaker 1: path as the things that hurt us before. Yes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And you know, I'll be more specific because what really

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Speaker 1: was helpful And this made me think, like, ah, am

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Speaker 1: I wrong? Is cancel culture good? Because you talked about

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Speaker 1: why it's a thing? Can you talk about why you

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Speaker 1: think cancel culture is a thing, specifically why it's like

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Speaker 1: blown out the past two three years. Where I was

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Speaker 1: going with that was with cancel culture. Your listener asked

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Speaker 1: is it good or is it bad? Or I think

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Speaker 1: maybe you asked me that I don't remember, and I

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Speaker 1: think it is both good and bad. Cancel culture is effective, right,

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Speaker 1: We've seen the effects of cancel culture. We've seen people

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Speaker 1: get canceled and immediate change, right or they're like completely

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Speaker 1: done away with their pockets have been affected, and so

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Speaker 1: we know it works. It's effective. However, sometimes cancel culture

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Speaker 1: can be premature without proper investigations. Sometimes it can seem

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Speaker 1: like a witch hunt. What do you mean by that?

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Speaker 1: Because of whoever is doing the canceling, if it smells

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Speaker 1: like something that has needed to be canceled before, then

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Speaker 1: we automatically cancel it, right. And in terms of racial injustice, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's one of those things where you know what, if

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Speaker 1: it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck,

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Speaker 1: it must be a duck. So we're not gonna give

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Speaker 1: any chance for whatever this is that that is bringing

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Speaker 1: any PTSD or triggering in any way in this direction.

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Speaker 1: We're just gonna cancel it from right here. Boom, done, canceled,

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Speaker 1: Bye bye. It's a defense mechanism. When it is good

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Speaker 1: is when there's a system set up in place and

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Speaker 1: that system enables racism, inequality, sexism, whatever it may be.

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Speaker 1: And we see that system and we say, you know what,

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Speaker 1: let's cancel this entire system. It's torn down, demolished completely

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Speaker 1: from from the bottom up, and whatever that system is

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Speaker 1: has to be rebuilt. But most of the cancel culture

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Speaker 1: is top down. It's like we're going to cancel all

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Speaker 1: these little people. And it's made me think as you're talking,

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Speaker 1: the issue though, is that I'm coming in my head,

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Speaker 1: is if we can so easily cancel those things that

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Speaker 1: can be turned around, it almost feels like we're trying

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Speaker 1: to make everybody believe the same thing. Now with racial

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Speaker 1: injustice stuff, it feels a little different. But even like

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Speaker 1: the politics, like Democrat versus Republican. We're not going to

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Speaker 1: talk about that stuff, but it feels like we're trying

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Speaker 1: to cancel everybody that doesn't believe one side. But the

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Speaker 1: issue is to me, in my head, we've been doing

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Speaker 1: that for years, is that there's a right and a wrong,

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Speaker 1: there's a good and a bad. And if we can

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Speaker 1: cancel one thing, then what happens when that the power

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Speaker 1: gets put in the wrong hands and then we can

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Speaker 1: all be canceled for the other thing. Does that make sense? Correct?

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Speaker 1: It makes perfect sense. It's about the main issue of

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Speaker 1: racism or particularly in this country. Is there are way, way, way,

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Speaker 1: way too many people that I think that racism is

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Speaker 1: a political issue and not a life issue, because honestly,

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Speaker 1: we should. I know that you're fine, that's not what

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Speaker 1: you were saying. I know that that is not what

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Speaker 1: Cat was saying. But in all honesty, racism in any form,

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Speaker 1: simply put, we should all think the same about it.

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Speaker 1: Racism is not a good versus evil thing. It's all evil.

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Speaker 1: It's not forms. Okay, yes, yes, I agree with that.

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Speaker 1: So the cancel culture idea when it comes to racial

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Speaker 1: injustice is different when it comes to other parts of

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Speaker 1: the world. Is basically what you're saying or other things,

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Speaker 1: because you could be canceled for anything right now in

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Speaker 1: this world, you you walk weird on the street, and

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Speaker 1: you're canceled. So what you're saying is in that regard

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Speaker 1: there is no right and wrong is all wrong. The

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Speaker 1: conversation around it, it looks and sounds different, But like,

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Speaker 1: what do we do though, because I really I'm having

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Speaker 1: a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that

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Speaker 1: this is helpful because I can't learn what what happens

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Speaker 1: most of the time when people are called out and

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Speaker 1: then canceled for things. What is going to happen is defensiveness, right,

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to have this like initial response of like,

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Speaker 1: that's not what I meant, that's not what I said,

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Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah. But I'm canceled and people are

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Speaker 1: just berating me versus, Hey, let me talk to you

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Speaker 1: about what you said and why that wasn't cool. Let's

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Speaker 1: have a conversation so you can do better because I

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Speaker 1: want you on my team. I don't want you canceled.

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Speaker 1: I want you on my team. I want you to

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Speaker 1: tell me in your perspective, You've talked about this a

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Speaker 1: little bit, but why do you think cancel culture has

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Speaker 1: had such a rise in the last three years? What

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Speaker 1: is the intent and who's doing it? Because people are

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Speaker 1: fed up and people are tired of not being listened to.

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Speaker 1: You're tired of not being heard. So how can we

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Speaker 1: help then, because I think you've said that earlier, how

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Speaker 1: can we help dismantle cancel culture? Because that's not helpful

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Speaker 1: in my eyes, based on this conversation, when somebody cancels

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Speaker 1: me or wants to cancel me, well, I might be different,

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Speaker 1: but generally I make the assumption that people and I

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Speaker 1: shouldn't make assumptions, but I'm going to when they're being canceled. One,

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Speaker 1: there's a fear to be authentic and show up because

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Speaker 1: there's a fear to be canceled. And too, it's not

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Speaker 1: creating a conversation, and I think we need more of

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Speaker 1: its conversations. You're exactly right. Also, keep in mind, cancel

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Speaker 1: culture is very much a it's not a personal thing.

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Speaker 1: It's cyber for the most part. It's a group of

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Speaker 1: people thinking the same thing about one thing, and then

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Speaker 1: they bash it and they let everybody know, hey, cancel

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Speaker 1: this this person. And the Internet moves at a million

431
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:42,200
Speaker 1: miles an hour and you cannot catch up. You can't

432
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,280
Speaker 1: get ahead of it, no matter how hard you try. Also,

433
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:49,000
Speaker 1: on the Internet, which is a world of a false

434
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,960
Speaker 1: reality in its own right, it's hard to be authentic

435
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:54,480
Speaker 1: in that world. Like you know you're being authentic, but

436
00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:58,680
Speaker 1: like it's hard to show everyone like the real like

437
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 1: all of your you as if you will or whoever

438
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 1: else is out there on the inner webs always say

439
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,199
Speaker 1: Twitter's fear, I don't anyway any anyway, it's hard to

440
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 1: show that authenticity, and so it's easy to cancel what

441
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:17,159
Speaker 1: may not. It's not relational. Candle culture is not relational,

442
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,639
Speaker 1: and what we need probably is more relationships because I

443
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 1: think that the change that we're wanting, right, the change

444
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 1: that we're wanting to create, is built through relationships and

445
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,679
Speaker 1: people being like, hey, let's have a conversation and then

446
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 1: learning like, oh, I don't hate you. I don't hate

447
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 1: you either, how can we work together? You know what

448
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,199
Speaker 1: I thought about. I'm gonna go ahead in reference. I

449
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,719
Speaker 1: don't remember the name of the episode that that we

450
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 1: did on your podcast, but I'm gonna go ahead and

451
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:45,120
Speaker 1: plug in your podcast past. I'm gonna yes I am.

452
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 1: If you guys don't listen to the podcast, go back

453
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 1: about it was. It was called things White people are

454
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 1: afraid to ask their Black friends. Right, If you go

455
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 1: back to that, yes, yes I am. If you go back,

456
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,400
Speaker 1: If you go back to that episode and listen to it,

457
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 1: I think the formula of combating cancel culture is in

458
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,920
Speaker 1: there because I talked so much about one on one

459
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 1: personal relationship is how you learn the most, and then

460
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 1: like doing that over and what what do you say

461
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 1: to the people are doing the canceling? Because what we know,

462
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,120
Speaker 1: I would be careful to what I say to people

463
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 1: who are doing the canceling. Not because I'm afraid of

464
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 1: being canceled myself. You can't cancel me, booboo. But within

465
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 1: the cancel culture, I believe there are some people who

466
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 1: are trolls, and then I think there's a large group

467
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 1: of people who are legitimately hurt. I'm not gonna sit

468
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,640
Speaker 1: here and tell these people who are hurt. Hey, if

469
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 1: this is how you how you deal with that hurt,

470
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 1: If if this is your emotion of of that pain,

471
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna sit here and tell you how to

472
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 1: what to do and what not to do with it.

473
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,120
Speaker 1: If you want to cancel, cancel away, baby, and all

474
00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:01,879
Speaker 1: actuality like you really cannot, like nobody can really really

475
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 1: really cancel you, depending on I KNOWD just gave me

476
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,640
Speaker 1: a look, there's a difference in this is the thing.

477
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 1: There's a difference in canceling a system, in canceling a

478
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 1: product or canceling something like that, and there's in canceling

479
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 1: a person. And I think what I keep getting stuck

480
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: on is when we cancel people. I'm okay with canceling

481
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 1: racial injustice and all of the stuff that is involved

482
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,199
Speaker 1: in that I'm okay with canceling the TV shows and

483
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 1: the this and the that that are like really screwed

484
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 1: up when you think about them. I'm okay with that.

485
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: The problem is we now have started to I think

486
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 1: a lot of people who care, people who care have

487
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: started to tiptoe around life because they don't want to

488
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 1: get canceled because you can get canceled too. And here

489
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 1: is the truth, is me going off on a rant.

490
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,199
Speaker 1: I have done things that are messed up in my

491
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: past that I didn't know. I've probably said things. I

492
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 1: have probably attended things, and I've probably been around spaces

493
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 1: and supported things on accident that supported a system that

494
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 1: supports racial injustice. I probably we have. I don't have

495
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 1: a list of those things. But my fear is that

496
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: we're afraid to talk about mistakes. But we have to

497
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 1: talk about mistakes that we can learn. The only reason

498
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 1: I know some of the things that I know are

499
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 1: because you offered me the space, space and grace. You

500
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 1: gave me grace in the space that we were in

501
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: where you said, ask whatever you want to ask. Also,

502
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: you said earlier in our conversation that you can't get

503
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 1: canceled for being sincere yeah, and I appreciate that, because

504
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: what's really going to break down some of this stuff?

505
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 1: Our conversations like that that make me think, wait a second,

506
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 1: I need to take a step back and look at

507
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 1: really what's going on, rather than me being afraid to

508
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: talk about it, being afraid to show up, being afraid

509
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 1: to create relationships. So then we have these two groups

510
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 1: that we have three groups of people for the people

511
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,679
Speaker 1: that are canceling, the people that are trying to have

512
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 1: the conversations, the people that are too afraid to have

513
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,160
Speaker 1: the conversations, and then the people that are so fed

514
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 1: up with cancel culture all of this stuff that they're like,

515
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 1: I don't give a f I'm gonna do what I want.

516
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: That's not helpful. I don't know what I just said.

517
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 1: I just locked out. I had a thought I was

518
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,880
Speaker 1: gonna say, you're a therapist. Um, I don't know how

519
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 1: your discipline is not in La American family. And again,

520
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: this doesn't really answer your question of I wasn't asking

521
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: a question. I was just well you you didn't ask

522
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: a question. It doesn't really answer your question of what

523
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: to do with those people who are cancel culture. But

524
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: those people would would change if you look at it

525
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,719
Speaker 1: like a marriagor family therapy session like that. We're in

526
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: this together, right, I'm black, you're white, and this is

527
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 1: we have trauma in our relations with each other. So

528
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,959
Speaker 1: we have to go to couples therapy all of us

529
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: um and we've got to have we've got as a society,

530
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: and we've got to have the hard conversation hard. It's

531
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: got to be willing to have it right. Everybody's got to.

532
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: But the more people, it's it's each one, each one

533
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: to reach one, each one to each one. As the

534
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: more people that do it, it will slowly and slowly evolve.

535
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: I think that's a great metaphor because you also can't

536
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 1: force anybody. You also can't force anybody. If you force

537
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 1: somebody to show up in therapy with you, he's not

538
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: going to go. Those people have to want to be there.

539
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: I wish it was different. Should be a therapist? Do

540
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 1: you think you should be a therapist? You're my therapist,

541
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 1: I'm asking you. She's not my therapist's a therapist. But

542
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: the conversation for another day. But okay, So I think

543
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: that all in all to wrap this up, because I

544
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 1: think that was helpful saying that like, yes, what we

545
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 1: need is what not what we're doing. What I'm getting

546
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: from this conversation with you, and please, in everybody in

547
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 1: the world, I'm asking you, guys for some grace in

548
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 1: this conversation because this is this is real life cat

549
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: having thoughts as she has them, rather than her compiling

550
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: them and then she talks to you. So what I'm

551
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: hearing in all of this is that cancel culture. I

552
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 1: think in the beginning had good intent. The intent was there.

553
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: The intent wasn't to be hateful. It has become that way.

554
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: But I think the intent was always pain. First know,

555
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: the intent wasn't pain. There was pain, and the intent

556
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: was to heal the pain. So the intent was good.

557
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 1: It is not or not heal the pain, but to

558
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 1: somehow cripple what was causing the pain, which would in

559
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 1: turn heal it. Right, I just have to be right.

560
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: So going back, the intent was good. What has transpired

561
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: has not been what was set out to happen, and

562
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: now it has become something that is causing more pain

563
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 1: rather than creating a healing space. So the suggestion and

564
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: the answer we do not have that I think is

565
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: part of this conversation. If we don't have the answer.

566
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: But I do know though, what helps is conversations. So

567
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: what helps is listening to stuff like this and calling

568
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: your friends and saying what do you think, and doing

569
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: some research and listening to both sides. When I was

570
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: looking at this stuff, I went back and listened and

571
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: read and listened to stuff that was arguing both sides,

572
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: because if I'm just looking at one side, obviously I'm

573
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: gonna be like, yeah, they're really so all. Not to

574
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: say we don't have the answer, but I think the

575
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 1: answer lies in conversations. And I don't think the answer

576
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: lies in canceling people without a conversation. How about that? Yes. Also,

577
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: let me add that if you're having these conversations for

578
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: those people who you may feel like are a big

579
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: part of the cancel culture, I would encourage everyone to

580
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: try your best to have the discernment, to recognize pain

581
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: and understand that if someone's in pain, sometimes it might

582
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: be best to let them have their pain. It may

583
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: not always be up to you to heal it, and

584
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: the conversation doesn't always heal it the first time. It's

585
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: going to take time. Okay, thank you, Paul, You're welcome,

586
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: and I hope this conversation was helpful to you guys,

587
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: and I will talk to you guys on Wednesday for

588
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: Couch Talks, which is the Q and a episode that

589
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: I do every week. Right answer your questions if you

590
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: have questions about this. How about this, Paul, I think, well,

591
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: let's make this a thing. Yeah, well know I catch

592
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: box is already a thing that I know. Let's make

593
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 1: me coming to the show a thing. But I was

594
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: going to say. What I was going to say, maybe

595
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: like every six months, and every six months you can

596
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 1: come on a special all the time guests, a regular regular.

597
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: I was going to say is I don't know if

598
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: we're going to do that. But what we will do is,

599
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: if you have questions on this stuff, if it brought

600
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: something up, maybe if you got offended by something, maybe

601
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 1: you really love something, maybe you're confused because we just

602
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: talked in circles, send a question to Catherine at You

603
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: Need Therapy Podcast dot com. Um. It can be be

604
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: for me or Paul or both of us, and then

605
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: we'll do an episode on Wednesday, either this Wednesday or

606
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: the next whenever we can organize that. And won't answer

607
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: your questions about that. Cool. I can do other things too,

608
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: Like I can make muffins, you can make what I

609
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: can make muffins like I can do like recipes, You're done.

610
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: I can make Cajun Would you like to? We can

611
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: make this a thing. We don't make Cajun food and

612
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 1: muffins on the podcast. We couldn't. We could. Would you

613
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: like to shout your Instagram out? I know you've been

614
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: waiting to do that. I forgot all about that. If

615
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: you I'm not going to shout my Instagram out, but

616
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: do you want to follow me? If? Yeah, if you

617
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: actually go listen to the first episode that I did

618
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: with Cat and there you will find people want to

619
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: know your Instagram handle. Then they have to go listen

620
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: to the episode. Yes, yes, or send send it in

621
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:40,719
Speaker 1: as a question. My god. Okay, we're done. Bye,