WEBVTT - How Hustle Culture Creates a Counterproductive Relationship with Work

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. You're listening to Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 1>Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio.

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<v Speaker 2>I do you feel, like Jennifer Lots of being talked

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<v Speaker 2>about how AI may replace workers? Different maybe from the

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<v Speaker 2>last big automation wave where many blue collar jobs were

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<v Speaker 2>taken out. This time around, the concern is that artificial

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<v Speaker 2>intelligence will make white collar jobs obsolete. That's one of

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<v Speaker 2>the concerns that's out there.

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<v Speaker 1>It is, And then you wonder, if you've got your

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<v Speaker 1>job at stake, you might perhaps think I might be

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<v Speaker 1>well advised to work a little harder, work longer hours,

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<v Speaker 1>for example, and that might have some very bad impact

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<v Speaker 1>onto your health, healthier family, and maybe even the healthier company.

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<v Speaker 2>This from two workaholics. I can feel it. I can

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<v Speaker 2>feel it. We're trying to justify it. I will say

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<v Speaker 2>the flip side too, is AI might ultimately help us.

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<v Speaker 2>But anyway, we wanted to get some thoughts on how

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<v Speaker 2>we work and overwork on a day that we had

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of news flow. Very very busy with us

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<v Speaker 2>right now is Melissa Associate Professor of Industrial Organizational Psychology

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<v Speaker 2>at the University of Georgia, director of the Healthy Work

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<v Speaker 2>Lab at UGA. She's got a new book out, Never

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<v Speaker 2>Not Working While the always on culture is bad for

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<v Speaker 2>business and how to fix it. She joins us from Athens, Georgia. Melissa,

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<v Speaker 2>nice to have you here. With Jennifer and myself. We

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<v Speaker 2>want to get into the book. But I do wonder

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<v Speaker 2>in your day job and the things that you talk

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<v Speaker 2>about with your students, the role of something like we

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<v Speaker 2>are talking about AI all day. We've been obsessed with

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<v Speaker 2>it because of Nvidia's results. But I wonder how you

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<v Speaker 2>think about it. What are some of the conversations that

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<v Speaker 2>you are having in the classroom and in your Healthy

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<v Speaker 2>Work Lab. Is this a good thing or a bad

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<v Speaker 2>thing or we don't know yet.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's a great question. One thing with AI that

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<v Speaker 3>I find very interesting it's, you know, I'm less concerned

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<v Speaker 3>about it replacing our jobs. I feel like there's always

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<v Speaker 3>going to be a need for humans, but it's also

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<v Speaker 3>making us more efficient. And so one thing that I

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<v Speaker 3>I'm very curious about is with AI, with technology, uh,

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<v Speaker 3>things that are faster to do. Why are we adding

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<v Speaker 3>more to our plate? And you know, why are we

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<v Speaker 3>not leveraging the efficiency of things like AI to work

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<v Speaker 3>smarter instead of longer.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I guess would an answer there, if you would

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<v Speaker 1>forgive me would an answer? There be competition because you've

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<v Speaker 1>got everyone's putting in there. Everyone's trying to feel their

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<v Speaker 1>way around this new, this new AI world. Everyone's trying

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<v Speaker 1>to work out how they can get a leg up

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<v Speaker 1>on their competition. And so that's not the time when

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<v Speaker 1>you want to see companies start to pull back. But

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I know this is something that you study,

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<v Speaker 1>and this is you've had a lot to say about it,

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<v Speaker 1>So I mean, what's your response to that kind of

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<v Speaker 1>a view.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think one of the common myths is that

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<v Speaker 3>working all the time is going to lead to greater productivity.

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<v Speaker 3>And you know, I understand the need to keep up

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<v Speaker 3>with the competition, but I think we need to think

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<v Speaker 3>of the long game too, because burnout is so prevalent

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<v Speaker 3>now and it's just not sustainable to be working these

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<v Speaker 3>really long hours and not giving ourselves the rest and

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<v Speaker 3>recovery that we need so that we can be sharper

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<v Speaker 3>and more creative I'm and more innovative. I mean, think

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<v Speaker 3>of how tired you are at the end of the day.

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<v Speaker 3>Compared to the beginning of the day. I don't know

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<v Speaker 3>about you, but I do my best writing in the

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<v Speaker 3>morning and I'm sharp, and so, you know, leveraging tools

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<v Speaker 3>like AI to be able to shorten you know, it's

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<v Speaker 3>it's almost like wasted time at the end of the

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<v Speaker 3>day when you're not as productive. So why don't you

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<v Speaker 3>just call it a day then? And also you're improving

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<v Speaker 3>your you know, employee satisfaction and they're going to want

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<v Speaker 3>to stay at the company. So I do think, yes,

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<v Speaker 3>I understand the urge to just keep on going, going, going,

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<v Speaker 3>because that's what everyone else is doing. But maybe you

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<v Speaker 3>think a little bit more strategically and think about the

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<v Speaker 3>long game as well.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>What's interesting is and I think about how I grew

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<v Speaker 2>up to it's just like work harder, you know, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>put in not one hundred percent, but one hundred and

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<v Speaker 2>fifty percent into anything you do. Having said that, I

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<v Speaker 2>get what you're saying. And I think coming off of COVID,

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<v Speaker 2>we talked a lot more about balanced work situations. And

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<v Speaker 2>what's interesting is that may play true in a tight

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<v Speaker 2>labor force where companies are worried about losing workers. I

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<v Speaker 2>do wonder as that shifts whether or not employers care

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<v Speaker 2>so much about the work balance. I'm not being critical

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<v Speaker 2>or making, you know, a viewpoint, but you know, employers

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<v Speaker 2>have things that have to get done, and you know

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<v Speaker 2>they're going to be deadlines. What's the right balance? Because

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<v Speaker 2>it does sound like this is an argument or something

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<v Speaker 2>you need to be telling employers, because.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I'm not against hard work. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>I struggle myself with being a work That's partly why

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<v Speaker 3>I wrote the book, and so, you know, I think

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<v Speaker 3>it's about fostering an environment where you are working very

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<v Speaker 3>hard when you're at work, and you have an engaged workforce,

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<v Speaker 3>which has a ton of positive outcomes according to research.

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<v Speaker 3>But you're letting your employees disengage when they leave work,

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<v Speaker 3>and that has been shown to lead to a ton

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<v Speaker 3>of positive outcomes and greater performance. And so it's almost

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<v Speaker 3>like you're leveraging the best of both worlds. I do

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<v Speaker 3>think it's possible, and we can use AI and the

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<v Speaker 3>other you know, in technology to help us accomplish that.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I wonder if you could talk a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit about the policy space here, because certainly what you

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<v Speaker 1>see for companies in Europe, for government officials. In Europe,

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<v Speaker 1>there's a right to switch off, there's a right not

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<v Speaker 1>to get emailed. It's not necessarily in every country, but

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<v Speaker 1>it's certainly a vibe that you've got over there. And

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<v Speaker 1>you know, here in the United States, do you see

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<v Speaker 1>any similarities anywhere with that culture.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm not seeing that happening here in the US. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>I would love it, but I'm a realist too, and

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<v Speaker 3>so I do think this is going to have to

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<v Speaker 3>be at the company level. And you know, I think

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<v Speaker 3>there are things you can do in your organization to

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<v Speaker 3>have similar policies, even if it's just a pop up

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<v Speaker 3>that you're trying to send an email after hours and

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<v Speaker 3>a pop up occurs and it says, are you sure

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<v Speaker 3>you want to send this at nine pm? Or maybe

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<v Speaker 3>you schedule it for the morning. What's wrong with that?

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<v Speaker 3>Is the deal going to go bad because you didn't

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<v Speaker 3>send an email at ten pm? Maybe? But probably not.

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<v Speaker 3>Things are you know, not as urgent as we tend

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<v Speaker 3>to think they are. And you know, for those dire projects, sure,

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<v Speaker 3>maybe you need to work outside of your normal work hours,

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<v Speaker 3>but I don't think every project necessarily has to be

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<v Speaker 3>like that.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, well, Melissa just about a minute left. He I

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<v Speaker 2>feel like there's a million more questions we could ask you.

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<v Speaker 2>But what's the biggest misconception about working harder longer. We

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<v Speaker 2>all think that's a good thing, but maybe it's not

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<v Speaker 2>necessarily always a good thing. And unfortunately just got about

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<v Speaker 2>thirty seconds.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean, it's just it's a myth that, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>working harder will lead to greater productivity. Workaholics tend to

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<v Speaker 3>think everything is a crisis, and I think it's important

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<v Speaker 3>to think about the big picture and be forward thinking

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<v Speaker 3>instead of backward thinking. And so that's that's my take

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<v Speaker 3>on it.

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<v Speaker 1>It's an interesting point, isn't it. Not everything is a crisis,

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<v Speaker 1>Ladies and gentlemen, there's another way to think about that.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a that's a really interesting thing to take away.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a really smart message here, all right, listen, great stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>Glad we got some time with you. Melissa Clark, Associate

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<v Speaker 2>Professor of Industrial organizational Psychology at the University of Georgia,

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<v Speaker 2>just got a new book out, Never Not Working, Why

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<v Speaker 2>the always on culture is bad for business and how

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<v Speaker 2>to fix it. So check it out, everybody. Hey watch

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<v Speaker 2>an Nvidia share still up about seven percent, in the aftermarket.

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<v Speaker 2>But this is Bloomberg