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Speaker 1: This is me Eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely

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Speaker 1: bug bitten in my case, underwear listening Hunt podcast, you

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything presented by on X. Hunt creators are

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Speaker 1: the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the

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Speaker 1: Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play store, nor

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Speaker 1: where you stand with on X. We're we're sitting here

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Speaker 1: to keep this in the back of your mind while

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Speaker 1: you listen to this episode. We're discussing why, ah, why

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Speaker 1: a woman is topless but a man is shirtless, and

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Speaker 1: why you never say a topless man or a shirtless woman.

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Speaker 1: Ben share your theory if you said a shirtless woman,

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Speaker 1: she could still be wearing a bra. Yeah, that's good.

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Speaker 1: It was killing me. Uh. Joined by Ben Wallace, who

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Speaker 1: you just heard from there and Ben is finally the

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Speaker 1: writer Ben Wallace, He's finally written something worthy of us.

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Speaker 1: Hundreds of articles that just not worthy of us, and

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Speaker 1: finally he's done it. I'm honored. Is that what when

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Speaker 1: you set out you wanted to land on this show?

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Speaker 1: I mean it took me a lot of years, like

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Speaker 1: a career, Uh, to lay off people kind of what

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Speaker 1: you're you know, you're I don't know like, like, how

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Speaker 1: when people say, like, what do you write about? It's

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Speaker 1: hard because you're a generalist long form magazine and I'm

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Speaker 1: mostly a magazine writer, general interest right about everything from

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Speaker 1: you know, you know Nazis to the media business to

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Speaker 1: treasure hunts. Wrote a book about wine. Yeah, it's yeah,

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Speaker 1: I tell people about that real quick. I found myself

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Speaker 1: telling people about that book all the time. So I

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Speaker 1: wrote a book about the most expensive bottle of I

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Speaker 1: ever sold, which was a supposedly a seven Bordeaux red

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Speaker 1: Bordeaux that had belonged to Thomas Jefferson and was discovered

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Speaker 1: in a bricked up seller in Paris in the mid

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Speaker 1: eighties and then sold for this record price to the

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Speaker 1: Forbes family, as in Malcolm Forbes who started Forbes Magazine

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Speaker 1: and um. But then the sort of questions began, was

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Speaker 1: it really Thomas Jefferson's, was it really hidden in the

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Speaker 1: seller for two hundred years? And was the guy who

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Speaker 1: found it was this German collector named Hardy Rodenstock on

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Speaker 1: the up and up? Or was he a con man?

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Speaker 1: And so the book follows that mystery. Uh, and just

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Speaker 1: cut to it. I don't give away the ending. People

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Speaker 1: gotta buy it to find out that one of the

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Speaker 1: things I learned in that book that was most interesting

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Speaker 1: to me U was that, I mean, besides the story

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Speaker 1: about the wine was the thing I didn't realize that

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Speaker 1: the book has a lot to do with. Like there's

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Speaker 1: a part of the book where Ben needs to explain

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Speaker 1: kind of how wine became uh mainstream like Wall Street

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Speaker 1: dick swinging kind of thing, right, and it got into

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Speaker 1: this thing where people have wine tastings. I had never

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Speaker 1: heard this, that that you have wine tastings. You can

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Speaker 1: have a horizontal or a vertical tasting. That's right, So

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Speaker 1: tell people, like what that is. So, like a horizontal

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Speaker 1: tasting would be one year one vintage, let's say two

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Speaker 1: thousand and twenty vintage, but it would be a bunch

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Speaker 1: of different wines, like maybe it's like ten or twenty

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Speaker 1: or even more wines all from that year and you're

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Speaker 1: comparing so so you have the same sort of weather conditions,

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Speaker 1: same growing conditions, but you're comparing the wines against each other.

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Speaker 1: A vertical tasting, you're taking a single wine from a

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Speaker 1: single producer and you're looking at it over different years,

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Speaker 1: and it could be like a hundred years or samples

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Speaker 1: from a hundred years of a single wine, and then

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Speaker 1: you can see sort of how that makes a difference

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Speaker 1: in how it tastes. And I don't want to give

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Speaker 1: away the end of Ben's book, but I'll point out

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Speaker 1: that UM once, like Wall Street finance, people got into

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Speaker 1: the not that has happened like definitively overnight, but as

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Speaker 1: it became fashionable to host wine tastings and people were

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Speaker 1: filling out their verticals or horizontals, there would always be

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Speaker 1: these really hard to find bottles. Like there's sort of

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Speaker 1: like the bottlenecks in the process of assembling bottles, and

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Speaker 1: there emerges a gentleman who is always seems to find one.

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Speaker 1: But there's some guy who wants this extremely rare you know,

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Speaker 1: cheval Blanc, which was one of one of the famous ones.

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Speaker 1: And uh, and this guy, Hardy Rodenstock, you know, miraculously

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Speaker 1: just bought a private seller that had a dozen cheval blancs,

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Speaker 1: and over time, so many bottles of cheval Blanc came

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Speaker 1: on the auction market that there were more bottles of

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Speaker 1: it for sale than it's ever been produced. Uh. Doing

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Speaker 1: that led into like you did, you wrote so many

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Speaker 1: other things that have always been, you know, cranking out

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Speaker 1: so much work. But doing that led into a stint

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Speaker 1: for you. It gave you like a temporary stick as

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Speaker 1: the person, like a person who goes and examines what's

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Speaker 1: the most expensive blank one can get? That's true? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I did two articles, um for GP magazine about I

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Speaker 1: think it's called like the and the one percent, just

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Speaker 1: trying out super expensive or rare things like, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: the Bugatti vey Round sports car, or the most expensive

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Speaker 1: bed the Hostins is the Swedish bed called the Hostins

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Speaker 1: vividous bed um where I mean to try it, I

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Speaker 1: had to sleep in the showroom and for like insurance

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Speaker 1: reasons that the company made us higher security guard just

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Speaker 1: to while I was in there sleeping in the bed

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Speaker 1: with like you know, glaring New York City lights shining

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Speaker 1: in through the plate glass windows. And then you did,

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Speaker 1: did you do the most expensive toilet? I did? It

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Speaker 1: was Japanese Toto toilet delightful experience. Um. The most expensive airplane,

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Speaker 1: the most tends of airplane ride, most expensive airplane ride

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Speaker 1: going to Dubai where you have a you actually have

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Speaker 1: a cabin instead of a seat, and you can take

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Speaker 1: an in flight shower and you get a smoothie afterwards.

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Speaker 1: I mean, even though the smoothie is you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: like five dollars out on value, it just kind of

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Speaker 1: caps it for me. Yeah, and then you did the

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Speaker 1: most expensive fishing trip you can go on, the most

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Speaker 1: expensive fishing trip, which I think you went on a

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Speaker 1: similar trip. It's not the same one down in Patagonia exactly.

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Speaker 1: I was on the exact same trip fly fishing. I

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Speaker 1: mean I wasn't on up with you, but I was

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Speaker 1: on a similar trip. I think you give me a

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Speaker 1: few pointers with the fly fishing ride. Before I went,

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Speaker 1: my wife was being attracted to those guide dudes because

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Speaker 1: they wore flight suits. I did not know that I was.

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Speaker 1: I was. We weren't even married yet. It was an

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Speaker 1: early date. I took her on an early date, which

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Speaker 1: gave her the wrong idea about what our scene was

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Speaker 1: going to be. And then she wand up taking quite

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Speaker 1: a shine to all these young whipper snappers run around

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Speaker 1: the helicopter pilot suits, which is the weird. That's a

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Speaker 1: weird as true when you have a reservation like a

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Speaker 1: hotel or a restaurant or something, or people ever expecting

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Speaker 1: Detroit Pistons defensive Player of the Year Ben Wallace. You

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Speaker 1: know now and then every now and then I do

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Speaker 1: get a little bit of a look like you're not

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Speaker 1: what I was expecting. Very different. So you have all

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Speaker 1: all your teeth and everything were lined up. I don't

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Speaker 1: know anything about his dentistry. I just uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: he just yeah, he has he has much more hair

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Speaker 1: than I do. And you know he looks like a

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Speaker 1: professional athlete earlier. Yeah, he's about a foot taller than

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Speaker 1: this Ben Wallace. Um, darker skin, bigger hair, Um much different. Also,

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Speaker 1: the Pistons are basketball team, not a hockey team. The teeth,

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Speaker 1: Oh why did that hockey? That was perfect st like

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Speaker 1: when you play into its very very on brand. Why

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Speaker 1: did that thig hockey? I don't know what was the

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Speaker 1: position you said? Maybe it felt to me like a

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Speaker 1: hockey position. And he was a powerfulward, he was a

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Speaker 1: defensive that I feel like it must be hockey. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The reason the thing that Ben, all that stuff was

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Speaker 1: not worthy, All that all that work was not worthy.

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Speaker 1: But what is worthy is Ben is just finished a

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Speaker 1: large piece of reporting on the forest fen treasure. Um.

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Speaker 1: You probably have a tained now, I would say, like

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Speaker 1: a high level of subject matter expertise on the Forest

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Speaker 1: Fin Treasure, surpassing, surpassing that of our own Spencer new Heart,

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Speaker 1: who has no a mild interest. Yes, uh, tell what

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Speaker 1: you got. We could give Ben a break and Spencer

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Speaker 1: could explain what he feels the Fen Treasure is, or

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Speaker 1: we just go right to Ben. Go right to Ben.

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Speaker 1: Explain the Fen Treasure. All right, the Fen Treasure. We

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Speaker 1: gotta understand Forest Fan, Forest Fu. I got this all

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Speaker 1: planned out to talk about. No, you could do it briefly,

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Speaker 1: but I want to get into the guy. Okay, I

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Speaker 1: want to get into the guy. But first I just

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Speaker 1: want people to be like, oh, that thing. The Fen

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Speaker 1: Treasure is a chest of treasure, including a lot of

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Speaker 1: gold coins, gold nuggets, gems, some ancient jewelry um that

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Speaker 1: was hidden in the Rockies in two thousand ten um

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Speaker 1: and that by an eccentric guy from Santa Fe or

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Speaker 1: wealthy art collects, art art dealer, and that set in

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Speaker 1: motion a treasure hunt that has had you know, possibly

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Speaker 1: several hundred thousand people searching for it for the last decade.

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Speaker 1: A million bucks about about a million year, but then

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Speaker 1: a million. But that's not counting its collective value as

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Speaker 1: now a cultural artifact, absolutely, which can make it exponentially greater. Exactly, Um,

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Speaker 1: four people have died looking for it. Five at least

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Speaker 1: five have died trying to find the treasure. Okay, with

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Speaker 1: that established, uh, and I want to jump and explain

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Speaker 1: real quick how I became aware of Forrest Fent. And

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Speaker 1: I feel that I was telling I've been friends with

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Speaker 1: Ben for a long long time, like in excess of

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Speaker 1: a decade, I think thirteen years. And I feel like

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Speaker 1: I was probably from the start, from early on, I

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Speaker 1: mentioned the dude Forrest Fen to you. I knew this

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Speaker 1: this this art well, an art collector, fighter pilot. He's

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Speaker 1: a Vietnam pilot, correct for combat missions. Uh, eccentric antiquities dealer,

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Speaker 1: just man about town in Santa Fe. I heard about

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Speaker 1: them a long time ago when I was when I

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Speaker 1: first got interested in Clovis points, so ice age projectile points,

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Speaker 1: spear like spear points from the ice age. UM. When

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Speaker 1: I got interested in Clovis points, you couldn't read much

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Speaker 1: about Clovis points without reading about a collection of Clovis

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Speaker 1: points that had been dubbed the fen Cash and anthropolo.

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Speaker 1: I knew a number of anthropologists who were like legit

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Speaker 1: academic and the apologists a number of anthropologists who were

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Speaker 1: kind of like pot hunters, meaning they're there are hobbyists

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Speaker 1: who liked to hunt arrowheads, and they would often sit

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Speaker 1: and argue about and speculate on the legitimacy of the

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Speaker 1: Fen cash. And it was just some hand I don't know,

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Speaker 1: a dozen or some handful of Clovis points. And the

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Speaker 1: one guy came to know best, Tony Baker, who passed away,

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Speaker 1: would explain to me that he knew for a fact

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Speaker 1: I can say I think I can say this because

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Speaker 1: he's dead. He told me, Now everybody's dead. He told

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Speaker 1: me knew for a fact that some of the Clovis

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Speaker 1: points in the Fen Cash we're phonies. Then I became

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Speaker 1: aware of the Fenn Treasure because I had heard and

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Speaker 1: I was not this is not correct. I had heard

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Speaker 1: that some of these Clovis points had made their way

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Speaker 1: into the fen Treasure, and last I learned that they're not. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, when I started reporting on this, that was

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Speaker 1: one of the first questions I asked, because you had

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Speaker 1: mentioned that to me. And I learned that he had

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Speaker 1: sold the fen cash before he he had the treasure.

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Speaker 1: So what give us a rundown of I mean I

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Speaker 1: just touched on a little bit, but give a rundown

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Speaker 1: of like this guy's background and why he would have

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Speaker 1: emerged as a person to like set off at treasure hunt,

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Speaker 1: Like what is you know what what motivated him? Anyways?

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Speaker 1: I mean he grew up in Texas. His dad was

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Speaker 1: a school teacher, and growing up, I think really young,

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Speaker 1: he started collecting arrowheads and that ignited a lifelong obsession

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Speaker 1: with collecting things and with you know, in particular Native

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Speaker 1: American antiquities. UM. And when he became a pilot, he

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Speaker 1: joined the Air Force and then was in Vietnam, you know,

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Speaker 1: flew all these missions, was shot down and rescued twice. UM.

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Speaker 1: But even as a pilot, he would you know, use

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Speaker 1: his flights to kind of survey the landscape and occasionally

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Speaker 1: like put down own and you know, scour ruins for collectibles.

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Speaker 1: And so he was just a real kind of obsessive collector.

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Speaker 1: And after he got out of the Air Force, he

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Speaker 1: moved to Santa Fe from Texas, and UM became an

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Speaker 1: art dealer and so then he had a kind of

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Speaker 1: professional way to pursue his passion of collecting and owning things,

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Speaker 1: and his house in Santa Fe was full of um,

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Speaker 1: you know, things like sitting bowls, peace pipe and all

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Speaker 1: kinds of you know, kind of fabled relics and um.

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Speaker 1: And he was just a lifeline collector. And then eventually

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Speaker 1: in in the mid to late eighties, he sold his

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Speaker 1: art gallery after being a big part of the Santa

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Speaker 1: Fe art boom, and he bought a huge Indian pueblo,

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Speaker 1: the San Lazaro Pueblo, basically as his personal archaeological hunting ground.

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Speaker 1: And then he spent the next ten years, they're kind

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Speaker 1: of excavating it himself, courting no shortage of controversy in

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Speaker 1: the process. According no shortage of controversy. There were accusations

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Speaker 1: that he had found human bones. There were, you know,

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Speaker 1: various mediations with tribes over you know, certain things he

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Speaker 1: found in the pueblo. Um, well, how much did he

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Speaker 1: buy that thing for? I don't know. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that that number has been published. Yeah, but it was,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think it was over a thousand acres.

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Speaker 1: It was. It was a huge like bought an old pueblo.

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Speaker 1: It's like like an old village site. Yep, to dig

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Speaker 1: it up. You mentioned the Santa Fe ar boom as

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Speaker 1: if it was like an event, what what was that

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Speaker 1: it was? So, I guess in the seventies and early

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Speaker 1: eighties Santa Fe became UM a popular place for art

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Speaker 1: collectors to go to buy cowboy art, Indian artifacts, UM

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Speaker 1: sort of new Western art UM and Fenn was at

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Speaker 1: the center of that. I think a lot of kind

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Speaker 1: of Hollywood celebrities got into the Southwestern look, so, you know,

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Speaker 1: Michael Douglas, Suzanne Summers, Ralph Lauren, people like that. UM

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Speaker 1: three Company, The Regal Beagle Dude. That was a very

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Speaker 1: suggestive television show. I remember one episode where someone's overhearing

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Speaker 1: two people in the bathroom trying to make a shower

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Speaker 1: curtain fit and it's not long enough and someone overhearing

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Speaker 1: the conversation coming to a conclusion about something else going on.

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Speaker 1: Very suggestive for it. Yeah. I I've often brought up

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Speaker 1: that I think Shakespeare stole most of his material from

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Speaker 1: Threes Company, because that's where he developed his love for

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Speaker 1: like misheard conversations. You know, but that's a premise for

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Speaker 1: a novel like Shakespeare traveled, traveled back in time from

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Speaker 1: Threes Company too. It started writing his comments like this

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Speaker 1: is going to blow up in the Elizabeth in Europe. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like they're gona people are gonna love this when

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Speaker 1: I get back to where I came from. This idea

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Speaker 1: that you hear a conversation miss only here part of

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Speaker 1: it get a come to a wild conclusion. It's all

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Speaker 1: textbook threes. Come don don knots, should be should have

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Speaker 1: been in more Shakespeare adaptations. Uh okay, So walk through

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Speaker 1: as best you can to how this you know, art dealer,

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Speaker 1: Um a little bit of a fable list. I mean

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Speaker 1: he himself breaking tour on. I mean he himself said,

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Speaker 1: you know of what I say is true? You know?

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Speaker 1: And he said he said that, He said, um, it's

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Speaker 1: not what you are, it's what people think you are.

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Speaker 1: So there was a little bit of the kind of

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Speaker 1: rogue ish storyteller to him. Always can you quickly tell

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Speaker 1: the story you talk about in your article? Um, at

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Speaker 1: least an early draft to your article. Where he has

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Speaker 1: a thing on display in his gallery, but someone that

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Speaker 1: works for him knows more than he knows about what's

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Speaker 1: on display or not. So he had an intern. This

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Speaker 1: is in I think the early eighties or late seventies,

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Speaker 1: and he had an intern named Linda Durham who would

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Speaker 1: later go on to found like a pretty major Santa

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Speaker 1: Fe art gallery. And she was a playboy bunny. She

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Speaker 1: had been a Playboy bunny, which I think in those

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Speaker 1: days meant you would like actually worked at like a

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Speaker 1: Playboy club. This is in New York City, and she

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Speaker 1: was really interested in Egyptology. Go figure, and a customer

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Speaker 1: of hers at the Playboy club UM made a gift

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Speaker 1: to her of a small like something small and mummified. Um,

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Speaker 1: and she had an X rayed by a doctor friend

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Speaker 1: I'm using like a medical X ray device, and it

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Speaker 1: was a baby crocodile that had been mummified but for

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Speaker 1: mumified by a real Egyptian mummified baby crocodile and internet

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Speaker 1: stuff man, and like a nile crocodile. I mean, I

301
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Speaker 1: don't know if, I mean, I don't know which river

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Speaker 1: it came from, but that that's my guess, is that species.

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Speaker 1: And they wrapped it up like a little Halloween costume

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Speaker 1: and mummified it. Man, those guys. So at a certain

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Speaker 1: point I think she needed money. She sold it privately

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Speaker 1: to a private collector and eventually, by bizarre coincidence, it

307
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Speaker 1: ends up in fence hands like he buys it, and

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Speaker 1: he was always buying just like interesting objects. So he

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Speaker 1: buys this for the gallery and he displays it um

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Speaker 1: in a case and says, you know, d accession from

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Speaker 1: the British Museum, you know, and it was sort of

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Speaker 1: implied that it was a human mummy. What's de accession means?

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Speaker 1: That means like sometimes museums have um too much stuff

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Speaker 1: and they maybe need money, so they se all this stuff.

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Speaker 1: But does that give is that meant to give it

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Speaker 1: a path of legitimacy? Yes, it gives it. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: gives it sort of this, you know, or of of

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Speaker 1: of validation and respectability. Is that only in museum lingo

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Speaker 1: or is there another case where you would say private,

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Speaker 1: private collectors who have sort of collections d accession things.

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Speaker 1: I learned this working on the Wine book, because the

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Speaker 1: Forbes family collected all kinds of stuff and they would

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Speaker 1: d accession things from their collection. Yeah, a lot of

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Speaker 1: other people do that. They call it selling something. I

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Speaker 1: gonna started switching all this lawnmower. Okay, so continue about

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Speaker 1: the crocodile. Alright, So Linda Durham Young, you know intern

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Speaker 1: in Fenn's gallery sees this thing that used to belong

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Speaker 1: to her and went to to forest then and said,

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Speaker 1: you know that's not the accession by the Bridge Museum,

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Speaker 1: Like that's a little baby crocodile I got from some

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Speaker 1: guy who came to the Playboy Club. And you know,

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Speaker 1: she said, Fenn was not happy to have this story

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Speaker 1: he was telling about this object corrected. I think it's

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00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:15,680
Speaker 1: important to bring up the uh, it's important to bring

335
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Speaker 1: up I don't want to call him credibility act. I

336
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Speaker 1: don't want to call him credibility problems. It's important to

337
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Speaker 1: bring up the showmanship of Fen or what's the word

338
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,359
Speaker 1: you would use, showmanship, credibility gap. I don't know. I

339
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 1: think he was he was a you know, he was

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Speaker 1: a promoter. He was a salesman. He's not unique in

341
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Speaker 1: the art business that way. I think there's a fair

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Speaker 1: amount of that among art dealers. You kind of hype things. Um.

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Speaker 1: But and he was, as he said, he was a storyteller.

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Speaker 1: So you know, you know, it might be good word

345
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Speaker 1: for him, a bit of a rascal. He's rascally. I

346
00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 1: think he'd liked to just generate like ideas and and

347
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,840
Speaker 1: creator ruckets. He wasn't he was a rascal. And actually

348
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Speaker 1: I talked to this curator at the American Museum of

349
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Speaker 1: Natural History, David Hurst Thomas, who knew and liked fan

350
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Speaker 1: Um unlike a lot of archaeologists who thought he was

351
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Speaker 1: a pot hunter, and Thomas said Forest was a rascal.

352
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Speaker 1: You know. He reminded me of the what you see

353
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Speaker 1: in the Native American oral literature. A lot got in

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Speaker 1: my head as you use the word. I was thinking

355
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Speaker 1: my buddy Fred who used to call Bill Clinton the

356
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Speaker 1: rascal president. That words always stuck in my head. But

357
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 1: he was like attempting to build the same age as

358
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 1: though like um the dosekis commercial is the most interesting

359
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,480
Speaker 1: man in the world, like it. It has big that

360
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:43,359
Speaker 1: energy totally yeah yeah, but he's got like combat. I mean,

361
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,640
Speaker 1: there's like a foundation there right absolutely. And in fact,

362
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Speaker 1: you know, when I went into this, I first thought,

363
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Speaker 1: am I gonna have to do all this kind of verification,

364
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,680
Speaker 1: like get his military records, because that's the sounds like

365
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 1: a tall story, but it actually is. It is all true.

366
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Speaker 1: And it was somewhere along the way I think, where

367
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:04,200
Speaker 1: he had cracked Um a jet and then somebody went

368
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 1: into where he said he crashed it and they found

369
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,639
Speaker 1: it and like verified the whole story about you know

370
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,640
Speaker 1: this crash that you know who did that. I didn't

371
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Speaker 1: know this. I met those guys. I have a giant thing.

372
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 1: That's a long story. Do you mind if I tell

373
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 1: us really quickly interesting? I have a box of one

374
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 1: thousand meat bags plastic bags that butcher's used to send

375
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:31,200
Speaker 1: meat home in because years ago, the production company we

376
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,879
Speaker 1: work with was doing a show with Pat La Frieda.

377
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,159
Speaker 1: The guys I work with, the camera guys I work with,

378
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,360
Speaker 1: had been working on that and came over my house

379
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: and these bags of lamb meat and whatnot, and I

380
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 1: was admiring the bags. They passed along to the La

381
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 1: Frida's that I was an admirer of the bags. They

382
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 1: sent me a thousand of them. I still have them,

383
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 1: use them all the time. So when I when the

384
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 1: name popped up the Pat La Frida's brother, the famous

385
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 1: butcher went to Vietnam to find a chunk of airplane.

386
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:02,920
Speaker 1: I was planning to but he ended up he hired local.

387
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 1: He hired some Australians expats in Vietnam to do the

388
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 1: on the ground work for him. Um so they actually

389
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 1: found it, but he was, you know, in live remote

390
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 1: touch with them. He's an engineer. He became electrical engineer.

391
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 1: He became i think, really interested in the puzzle of

392
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: seeing sort of the historical research and um, you know,

393
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: could he cracked this puzzle? Could he? He was a

394
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 1: treasure hunter. Oh so he was a fan treasure was

395
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 1: a fan treasure guy. And if you're a spinoff exactly

396
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,360
Speaker 1: so like if you're a fan treasure guy, job one

397
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 1: is basically making a study of forest Fan because you're

398
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 1: trying to understand like places that might have been special

399
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: to him, where he might have hit the treasure. So

400
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 1: Chris Lafreda happened to go down the rabbit hole of

401
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: Fens Vietnam experience, and I thought it would be an

402
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: interesting challenge to try to find this wreckage if it

403
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: still was still sell it back to Fan. He Oh,

404
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: he gave him. He gave him a couple of the

405
00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 1: pieces that he got ship. Yeah. I mean he was

406
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: using like drone, you know, sending drones over the jungle

407
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 1: and then they sent people in on the ground after

408
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,400
Speaker 1: they had some evidence and they talked to villagers who

409
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 1: are like, oh, yeah, there's wreckage over on that slope

410
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 1: over there, no kid you know, So get us into

411
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: how get us into what he's thinking when he decides to,

412
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 1: at whatever point a decade ago, build up a little

413
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 1: treasure box and hide it. Well, the story of the

414
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: treasure begins thirty two years ago, Forest Fen was diagnosed

415
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: with kidney cancer and told it was terminal. His father

416
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 1: had died of pancreatic cancer, and his father, when he

417
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 1: was diagnosed with cancer, had swallowed and in fifty plus

418
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 1: sleeping pills um to spare his family the agony of

419
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 1: you know, drawn out death. So when Forest is diagnosed

420
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: with terminal cancer, he decides he's going to do the

421
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,200
Speaker 1: same thing, but with the twist that he's gonna go

422
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: to a remote place that he had already decided upon

423
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: as the place where he wanted to die, somewhere in

424
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 1: the Rockies, and he was going to die there, but

425
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 1: he was going to bring a chest of treasure that

426
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: he was going to create with him, and people could

427
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 1: search for his body and when they got there, they

428
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: could take the treasure. So he's going to create a

429
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 1: treasure hunt that would accompany his his burial site, and

430
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: he was going to create a poem with a puzzle

431
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: in it as the sort of mystery suicide note. The

432
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 1: suicide note was going to be this this kind of

433
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 1: you know, encrypted treasure map that people would have to

434
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 1: try to crack. That's great, but that's where that's where

435
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: if you're the centric, that's how you put your money

436
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,360
Speaker 1: where your mouth is, man, you know what I mean,

437
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: Like when the rubber meets the road and you keep

438
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: at it like that, that's like, that's my that's that's

439
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 1: great eccentricity right there. But he doesn't die. But then

440
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 1: he doesn't die, and probably he did not die. He

441
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 1: recovered fully from cancer UM and but he kept sort

442
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 1: of toying around with this idea of hiding a treasure chest.

443
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 1: You would talk about it, Yeah, he talked about it

444
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: to friends. In fact, you know, when friends came to

445
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: his house. He had a walk in vault in his

446
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,880
Speaker 1: house where he kept some of his more valuable um collectibles.

447
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 1: And when friends came over, he had like bring him

448
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: into the vault where he also had the bottle of

449
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 1: pills that he had planned to take with him, and

450
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: he would show them this this work in progress, which

451
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 1: was this bronze ten by ten treasure chest that he

452
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 1: was filling with valuables. Oh that's how big it was?

453
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: Ten by ten inches yep, but forty two pounds pounds

454
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 1: I was thinking of. I didn't know I was thinking

455
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 1: of a big Remember I was asking you a lot

456
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 1: of questions last night about the actual like stashing of it.

457
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: Ten by ten yeah, yeah. I was picturing like like

458
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: in a pirate movie, like a steamer trunk size. Yeah, oh,

459
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: ten by ten Okay, go on it, um, you know,

460
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: I'm looking at Spencer's pull up a picture of it.

461
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: So he kept, you know, playing around with what was

462
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: going to be in the chest, and he would take,

463
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: you know, put stuff in, take it out. And his

464
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: main goal was to create a treasure that like when

465
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 1: the finder opened the lid, they would just be dazzled

466
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 1: by it. Like it wasn't just going to be a

467
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: box with some valuable stuff in it. It was gonna

468
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 1: actually look like that treasure chest out of Like you

469
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 1: know that it's too small box, a small pirate I

470
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: would have found it and would have been, like I

471
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: was expecting something much larger out of walked away and discussed.

472
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: So one of the questions was, well, if he hides

473
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: this treasure, how's he gonna know if it ever gets found,

474
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: if it's often some really remote place. And so one

475
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: of the things he was trying to figure out was

476
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: how can I what can I what can I leave

477
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: in the box? UM that will let me know it's

478
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 1: been found. And I think at that time, like he

479
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: was kind of early for GPS, and he wasn't that

480
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: technically minded a guy, So I don't think there was

481
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: ever a quite And also the idea was that this

482
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 1: might be there for a thousand years, so I don't

483
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: think he was ever seriously considering a technological solution. But

484
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: one of the things he considered was putting something like

485
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: a UM bank doctor, you know, a bank letter or

486
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: a bearer bond worth enough money that the finder would

487
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: have to go to the bank to cash it out.

488
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: So between you like a hundred thousand dollar bearer bond,

489
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: they're not gonna just sit on that and when they

490
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: went to the bank, he would be notified. He then though,

491
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: UM thought, well what if the bank doesn't exist anymore?

492
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: So apparently he he took that out of the chest

493
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: and he came up with some other item kicked around.

494
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: He's imagine he kicked around, putting some thousand dollar bills

495
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: in which I didn't know existed, didn't. He actually put

496
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: in some thousand dollar bills, which you know, as was

497
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,239
Speaker 1: recently discovered on the internet, futures the face of Grover Cleveland. UM,

498
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: and then he took them out because he thought they

499
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: would rot over time. Huh. So the no thousand dollar bills,

500
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: So no thousand dollar bills, no Clovis points, no Clothus points,

501
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: but like a lot of like big gold nuggets, eagle gold,

502
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: eagle coins, double eagals, um, other kind of more esoteric jewelry,

503
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: and some projectile points or no, I don't know. I'm

504
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: not sure. I thought you mentioned that there are some

505
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: projectile points in there. I think someone I talked to

506
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: you said they thought there were, but I don't know

507
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: for sure. Maybe he put them in and took them

508
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: out a couple of times because it looks like he's

509
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: like staging the perfect scenery. Yeah, you might have thought,

510
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: you know, the point wen't like impressive enough visually, so

511
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: he stashes it. So he stashes it well, so in

512
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: in um the summer of two thousand ten, he hides it.

513
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: UM doesn't tell anybody where UM and he self publishes

514
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 1: a memoir called the thrill of the chase. With this

515
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: twenty four lines six stands a poem um that contained

516
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: what you needed to what you would need to figure

517
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: out where the chest was hidden. Spencer, Uh, can you

518
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: read for us some lines? Well's outside you when I

519
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: started getting bored? Uh? Some lines from the poem that

520
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: explains where the treasure is. As I've gone alone in there,

521
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: and with my treasures bold, I can keep my secret

522
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: war and hint of riches new and old. Begin it

523
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 1: where warm waters halt, and take it in the canyon down,

524
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: not far but too far to walk. Put in below

525
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 1: the home of Brown. From there, it's no place for

526
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: the meek. The end is drawing ever nigh the beano.

527
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: Paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high.

528
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 1: If you've been wise and found the blaze, look quickly

529
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: down your quest to cease, but terry scant with marveled gaze.

530
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: Just take the chest and go in peace. So why

531
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: is it that I'm must go and leave my trove

532
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: for all to seek the answer? I already know I've

533
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: I've done it tired and now I'm weak. So hear

534
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: me all and listen good. Your effort will be worth

535
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: the cold. If you are brave and in the wood,

536
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: I give you the title to the gold hm that

537
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: has everything you need to know. And then he, over

538
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: the decade, makes himself available intermittently in terms of rascaliness. Though,

539
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: I think before we move on, we gotta back up

540
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: to two thousand nine, which is a year before he

541
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 1: hid the treasure, which is when the FBI knocks on

542
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: his door and many other art dealers and diggers and

543
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: holders of you know, artifacts from the Four Corners area. Um,

544
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: and it's the FBI is uh. I don't know what

545
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: the name of the ace was, but Fenn was involved.

546
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: And I think they took like ten things from his home, um,

547
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: some small stuff all the way up to a bison

548
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: skull that they had taken. But no charges were ever

549
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: filed in this deal. But they kept his stuff. No,

550
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: I don't know about that. I think he got them back.

551
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: I mean there were charges filed a bunch against a

552
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: bunch of other people. I think they're like over thirty

553
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: people were arrested, but not against him and what but

554
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: here at home. But now it's interesting to point it out.

555
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 1: But if the FBI knocks on your door and takes

556
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff and there's no charges filed and

557
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: they give you your stuff back. Why is it brought

558
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: up as though you did something bad because it's like

559
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: built by like they didn't determine that he did something

560
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: bad Fenn. Fenn appeared to be like the most minor

561
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: player in what ended up happening. It was so big

562
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 1: that I think there were three people that committed suicide

563
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: in the case, two people that had their doors knocked

564
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: down to grab stuff, and then the informant himself killed himself. Um,

565
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: and Fen never had any charges in the thing. But

566
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: I said, let's say, I said, oh, I heard the

567
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: FBI kicked Spencer's door down, and then someone's like, yeah,

568
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: but they had the wrong door. They meant to go

569
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: to the neighbor's place. I like, Still, one thing that happened,

570
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 1: one thing, one thing that happened. Still he must be

571
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: a bad person. One thing that happened is the Associated

572
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: Press falsely reported that Fenn had been indicted, and they

573
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: had then had to correct that. But so like the

574
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: day of, he was probably the most best known person

575
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: of all the people who got rounded up in that

576
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: whole operation, And so it was kind of hard to

577
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: you know, bring the horse back into the bar, and

578
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 1: after that was reported, people just thought fun was you know,

579
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 1: more implicated than he was. And I don't think it's

580
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 1: like a far leap either. I don't mean to sound

581
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:41,839
Speaker 1: like Alan dersh was here, but I'm just saying it's

582
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 1: like there's a little bit like, you know, if he did,

583
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: if he didn't get in trouble and got his ship back.

584
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: I don't know that that's a bad like understood, but

585
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a far leap to like, look

586
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: at this happening in two thousand nine, and then a

587
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: year later he hides one or two million dollars worth

588
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 1: of UM pieces of memorabilia somewhere in the Rocky Mountains

589
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: and doesn't tell anybody where. So I think there's like

590
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,320
Speaker 1: suspicion there, and it's why a lot of people throughout

591
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: this and like even now that it's pretty much over,

592
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: have suspected that there was no treasure UM or that

593
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: like this was a ploy to cell books. And I'm

594
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: sure we'll revisit this part of the story itself, but

595
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 1: it plays into the thing of like, uh, this guy

596
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: doesn't have a perfect past, and so it could be

597
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 1: a reason why, Uh, this isn't just like an innocent

598
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 1: treasure hunt. Had you encountered that, had you encountered that

599
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 1: little plot twisted reporting? Ben? Yeah? Yeah, I mean, but

600
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: but the idea that he's like, I don't I'll do

601
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 1: with all my illegal stuff is putting this box and

602
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 1: buried on in the woods. Yeah, but yes, but I'm

603
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 1: glad you remember that because I actually had forgotten that part.

604
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: M hm. You chose not to put that in your article?

605
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 1: I did, really why because I forgot about There's only

606
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 1: so much you can fit. It's a long ass article. Yeah,

607
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: I was looking looking. I couldn't put the fen cash

608
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 1: in there, you know. Yeah. The whole point was to

609
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,240
Speaker 1: talk about the fen Cash, the project of closus quints.

610
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 1: That's why I wanted a big, clous point article from

611
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: Ben Wallace. And what do I get was it was

612
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 1: that his only brush up with like the FBI that

613
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 1: you know of. Yeah, but he was. I actually I

614
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 1: talked to a BLM agent who who was involved in

615
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,240
Speaker 1: that case, and like Fenn had been on everyone's radar

616
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: for years. I mean, he was like constantly kind of

617
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: a figure of suspicion. He knew a lot of the people,

618
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 1: and he was someone who really seemed to kind of

619
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 1: tread close to the line a lot and was constantly

620
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 1: having these skirmishes with you know, archaeologists, with museums, with

621
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:53,359
Speaker 1: the state government. Um so I think he was kind

622
00:36:53,360 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: of ripe to be under suspicion. Yeah, now we're gonna

623
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 1: jump to this. Fen over the decade or over the years,

624
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: makes himself sort of available to the hundreds of emerging individuals, thousands,

625
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 1: thousands who set out to find the treasure. Now, I

626
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: want you to talk a little bit about who these

627
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: people are, how they operate, how they communicate. But in

628
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 1: that include that Fenn continues to um give little like

629
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 1: getting warmer or Nope, not that, or I can assure

630
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: you it's not this like talk about how that dialogue

631
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: emerges between the treasure hunters and the treasure hider. I mean,

632
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,240
Speaker 1: Fenn had always been you know, he loved the media.

633
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 1: I mean he was actually controversy. One of the things

634
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 1: he was controversial for in the Santa fe Art community

635
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: was the degree to which he kind of courted press attention.

636
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 1: And so it was inevitable that when he starts this

637
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,839
Speaker 1: treasure hunt, like part of the appeal for him would

638
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 1: be all the attention it was going to bring him,

639
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: and so he was very open. Not only he was

640
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,959
Speaker 1: open to treasure hunters, but he was also very open

641
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: to the media. He went on The Today Show a

642
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: bunch of times, which he went on The Today Show,

643
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:23,839
Speaker 1: and it kind of blew the whole thing up. I mean,

644
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: that's when I think a lot more people got into

645
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: the hunt. But after he did his initial appearance on

646
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: the Today Show just talking about, you know, this hunt

647
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: he had started three years earlier, um, he agreed to

648
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: come back on the Today Show once a month for

649
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: the next I don't know, nine months and give a

650
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 1: clue each time. And he did it maybe three times,

651
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,280
Speaker 1: and then I think he got he sort of stopped

652
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: liking them. The pressure of the Today Show was putting

653
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: on him to give a serious clue each time, because

654
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: he was giving pretty minor stuff like well, it's not

655
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 1: in a graveyard, you know. I think I think that

656
00:38:57,840 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 1: Today Show is kind of like, we need you to

657
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 1: do us better than that. They want some of the

658
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: posts yea more possets like you know, so they wanted

659
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 1: to like they wanted to lead to a discovery, right

660
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 1: They're trying to force I think so they're trying to

661
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 1: yea narrow the search possibilities. UM okay. So so simultaneous

662
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 1: with that, there emerges this robust community of treasure hunters

663
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: around the fin treasure UM and you know, on the

664
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: Internet they all get together in a bunch of forums

665
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 1: that are extremely UM active, and you know, people throwing

666
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 1: out their various theories, which they called salves, or people

667
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: talking about their boots on the ground trips as they

668
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 1: refer to their field trips to actually look for the

669
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 1: treasure UM. And like you know, like the Internet is

670
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 1: about everything, I mean it was. It was a very

671
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 1: varied group of people with varying levels of UM evidence

672
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 1: backing up their theories. And so you know, there were

673
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: people who would put forward UM serious interpretations of the poem,

674
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 1: and then there'd be other people who would say, Um,

675
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: did you notice in that interview Fen was wearing a

676
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 1: hat and there was a hole in the hat, and

677
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 1: if you look closely under a microscope, that hole is

678
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 1: the shape of Colorado. So I think that's telling us

679
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: the treasures in Colorado. Uh. Some of the clues he

680
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: gave her substantive absolutely, and he one of the first

681
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: major clues he gave was he narrowed. The initial description

682
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: of where the treasure was was it's in the mountains

683
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:35,879
Speaker 1: north of Santa Fe. And initially a lot of people

684
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:37,800
Speaker 1: thought that men it was in New Mexico. At a

685
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: certain point it kind of broadened. People realized he was

686
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: talking about the Rocky Mountains as a whole. But he

687
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 1: excluded Utah and Idaho. I think he excluded Canada. So

688
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,439
Speaker 1: then it was basically narrowed to the four search states

689
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 1: were Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico. And didn't someone

690
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,399
Speaker 1: think if you went north long enough, you'd eventually wind

691
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 1: up back south of his house, and that's must be

692
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 1: where it was exactly one one one one of the

693
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 1: circumnavigate the globe and wind up in Albuquerque. This was

694
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,240
Speaker 1: actually a woman who ran one of the main forums.

695
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 1: Her theory was that it was buried in fans backyard.

696
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 1: And I said, but what about it being north of

697
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:15,959
Speaker 1: Santa Fanci If you go all the way around the world,

698
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: you can be in his backyard and still be north

699
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: of Santa Fe. He then people started dying. Then people

700
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:31,479
Speaker 1: started dying. I mean people were interpreting, you know, really

701
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 1: like like home of Brown people started interpreting as an outhouse,

702
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 1: so he had to eliminate, like say, it's not it's

703
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: not in an outhouse, it's not under an outhouse. Yeah.

704
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,439
Speaker 1: But but yeah, so Home of Brown you get into

705
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 1: that too. Because there's another interesting thing. Everyone everyone who's

706
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: read Catchering the Rye, which if you haven't, go read

707
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: its phenomental book, Catching the Rye, written by J. D. Salinger.

708
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 1: J D. Salinger's publisher was Little Brown. The Salinger family

709
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: ended up owning a property and Wyoming or so there

710
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 1: was a Sallenger ranch. It was in Wyoming. I'm not

711
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: sure whether or not that must be it Little Brown. Um,

712
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 1: they're authors families ranch. Ye. Crazy shit. So this the

713
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,919
Speaker 1: search began just attracting, you know, thousands and thousands of people.

714
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 1: Some of those people were kind of desperadoes there that

715
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 1: you know, they quit their job or they went bankrupt

716
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: or they you know, they kind of had nothing to

717
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: lose and they they went out there and a lot

718
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: of them had minimal, if any, wilderness experience. And I

719
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: have a great book they should have brought with them.

720
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: I think I've heard about that available. It's available for

721
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,280
Speaker 1: pre order. It's called The Mediator's Guide to Wilderness Skills

722
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 1: and Survival. It would have saved a lot of lives,

723
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 1: a lot of lives. A lot of people are saying

724
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 1: it would have saved a lot of lives. Um. So

725
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: this guy named Randy Bill you um puts into the

726
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 1: Rio Grande on a inflatable raft. Um, and he's not

727
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 1: heard from again. Kids, Like, wasn't it like only is

728
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: a child's inflatable raft Because he's got in his head

729
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 1: because the words put in are in there, He's got

730
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: in his head that it's like you need to do

731
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: a float. You need to do a river float to

732
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 1: find it. Like that, he put in somewhere cash the

733
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: treasure and then proceeded down the river and saw that

734
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 1: most so everybody starts doing float trips. Everyone starts doing

735
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 1: float trips. So eventually his body is found. He drowned. U.

736
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 1: Two more guys drowned, one I think also in the

737
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 1: Rio grand d a another in the Arkansas River. UM.

738
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: A fourth guy died in Yellowstone National Park. He was

739
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 1: he slipped on a slope and dropped five feet to

740
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: his death. And then another guy uh snowmobile into Dinosaur

741
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 1: National Monument wearing like a thin get him jeans and

742
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: froze to death. And that same guy. That's here's why

743
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 1: you shouldn't because a month beforehand he had to get

744
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 1: rescued for the same thing. Yeah, and it was some

745
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: of these moments, um that inspired Fenn to like give

746
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: further clues as he talked about like having his dialogue right,

747
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 1: trying to stem the bleeding. So like when when this

748
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 1: Randy died in the Rio Grand, I think Fanny just

749
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 1: said he's like not in the real Grand or he

750
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,760
Speaker 1: had said it's like it's not uh south of Santa

751
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: Fe or something like that, basically eliminating um the Rio Grand.

752
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 1: And then Randy's wife you probably covered this banner saw it,

753
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 1: but she like came out and was very vocal that, like,

754
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: this treasure does not exist. This is all a hoax

755
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 1: because she wanted to see the guy. Probably, I mean,

756
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: I'm sure she had many motives um for her husband

757
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 1: being killed looking for the treasure, but she was like

758
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: one of the very vocal people. It was like this

759
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 1: this isn't real. And actually they head of the new

760
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 1: Mexico State Police, Pizza SETAs Uh, publicly implored Fen to

761
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 1: to end the hunt, um, you know, to stop the deaths. Yeah,

762
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: and I in your article, I was surprised to read

763
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 1: too that that the Fen Treasure, in addition to Breaking Bad,

764
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,840
Speaker 1: the television show, is credited with an influx and tourism

765
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: to New Mexico. It was that substantial. New Mexico's tourism

766
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: department created a video featuring Fen as part of like

767
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 1: their tourism drive. It's weird because we've had New Mexico

768
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 1: advertise tourism and in the notes it says you can't

769
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 1: mention Breaking Bad, but didn't say not to mention the

770
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 1: Fen Treasure. Interesting. Yeah, I think Breaking Bad sent a

771
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: lot of people to Albuquerque, and um Fens sent a

772
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 1: lot of people to Santa fe uh. He then he

773
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: gave some other He also started to give some other clues,

774
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: like he kept saying, keep he said in terms of

775
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 1: the put In and river access, this is all just

776
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 1: shuding from your article. But in terms of the river access,

777
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 1: someone eventually a searcher, what do they call themselves, chasers

778
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 1: chasers asked him did you return like when you deposited

779
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: the treasure? Did you return by the exact same path?

780
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 1: And he said yes, which eliminated this idea that he

781
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 1: did a river trip exactly and then he said, I

782
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 1: guess a number of times he said I was how

783
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: old eighty when he when he buried it or hit it.

784
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 1: It's forty five pounds. I'm eighty years old. I carried

785
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:46,399
Speaker 1: it from my car, So keep that in mind. Yeah,

786
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: to Alip, presumably to eliminate a lot of the people

787
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 1: who are doing the crazy. Yeah, he eliminated side like

788
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 1: it's not that was the main thing. It's no, it's nowhere.

789
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 1: An eighty year old man couldn't have gone. Um, but yeah, specifically,

790
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:00,760
Speaker 1: it's not the real grand I think he might even

791
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 1: said it's not in a river or beside a river,

792
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:04,880
Speaker 1: And I think I think he may be eliminated, like

793
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: national parks because of the Yellowstone thing. Um never eliminated

794
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: National parks. Okay, maybe it was the Yellowstone thing. He

795
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 1: was like, you don't need rock climbing gear. It was

796
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 1: something from one of those insis nothing you're not Yeah,

797
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: you don't need crampons, or like you're not gonna be

798
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: repelling down. Although there was a guy, another guy who

799
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,320
Speaker 1: repelled into the Grand Canyon um and ran out of

800
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:29,399
Speaker 1: rope before he got to the bottom. And then when

801
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 1: like eleven National Park Service people came to rescue him,

802
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 1: and they got him down. He ran away because he

803
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:38,320
Speaker 1: was worried one of them was going to steal his

804
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: solve people. And then there was an Indiana treasure hunter

805
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 1: in Yellowstone, Um that got caught in an area he

806
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: wasn't supposed to be in Yellowstone National Park doing something

807
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: he wasn't supposed to be. I think he was doing

808
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 1: some rock climbing, and uh, when he got to the judge,

809
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 1: he said, you might call me a lunatic what ever,

810
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: but I feel wholeheartedly I solved that fan treasure thing.

811
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 1: I still feel it's down there, your honor. I dare

812
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: anybody to figure out a better solve. And so his

813
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 1: defense of being in his place he wasn't supposed to be,

814
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:13,399
Speaker 1: it was like, that's where the treasure was, your honor,

815
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 1: That's why I should be innocent. There were there I

816
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 1: just say like there were there were hundreds of people

817
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: who said I definitely have the correct solve. And when

818
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 1: people would say, well, then why don't you have the treasure,

819
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 1: they would say either like, well he clearly removed it

820
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:35,320
Speaker 1: or it was never there, And this whole thing is

821
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 1: a hoax or um, there's there must be like a

822
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 1: proxy item there, but the treasure itself isn't going to

823
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 1: be there. So instead of just saying, oh, I guess

824
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 1: my solve was wrong, can you get into I think

825
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 1: we've kind of touched on the crazy ship is like right,

826
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 1: the crazy ship is fun, but you can just kind

827
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 1: of imagine, right, like the hole in his hat or whatever,

828
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,279
Speaker 1: and people and you covered how people started getting very

829
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 1: interested in his biography and they're kind of looking for

830
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 1: that like Rosebud moment from Citizen Kane, right of like

831
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 1: what would be some place of particular resonance to him

832
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 1: where he would have put this thing because he established

833
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 1: that he put it somewhere important to him, so it

834
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: has to be somewhere that he's been, So how do

835
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 1: we find where all he's been and and all this

836
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: kind of like avenue that this whole avenue approach emerges

837
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 1: of like that that you'll find additional materials within his biography,

838
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 1: but spend some time on some of the people who

839
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,359
Speaker 1: are who we're thinking about it probably in the correct way.

840
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 1: So a lot of the more serious searchers focused on

841
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 1: Yellowstone because Fenn had said, my heart is in Yellowstone,

842
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 1: and as a child he had spent a lot of

843
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 1: time with his family on fishing and camping trips in Yellowstone.

844
00:49:55,120 --> 00:50:00,200
Speaker 1: So um, so that's where I would say most of

845
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:03,320
Speaker 1: the most serious searchers that I encountered spent most of

846
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 1: their time. I mean, there were still some people in

847
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 1: New Mexico looking, not that many in Colorado, quite a

848
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:12,280
Speaker 1: lot in Montana, but Wyoming and yellow Strand in particular

849
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 1: was was sort of the biggest focus for a lot

850
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 1: of people. One of the very popular spots was, you know,

851
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:20,919
Speaker 1: just like thirty miles from us, the way the Crael

852
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:25,879
Speaker 1: flies Hebgen Lake, because he had pictures in his biography

853
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 1: um of him at Hebgen Lake and riding horses there

854
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:30,800
Speaker 1: and talked about how much he loved it and stuff

855
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: like that. So that became a very popular place as well,

856
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 1: specifically at Hebgen Lake. Do you know that that uh

857
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:44,800
Speaker 1: Osborne Russell in his journal this is before Heaven Lake existed.

858
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 1: It's a it's you know, it's an artificial lake. It's

859
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 1: an empolierment um. They used to call that the firehole

860
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: as well. They would call holes like sheltered valleys where

861
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: you could spend the winter because some guy showed up

862
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 1: there and the whole thing was on fire. All that

863
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:00,760
Speaker 1: timber that used to be in the atom was burning,

864
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 1: and they called the fire hole. Then it got like

865
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:11,800
Speaker 1: subsumed by Lake hopgan Um. People started to feet realized

866
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 1: or started to feel that there has that that that

867
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 1: that the poem can't do it like like a literal

868
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: understanding of the words in the palm, that it can't

869
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 1: be adequate, like it can't put you on a spot

870
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: to find a ten by ten inch box. But it

871
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:34,320
Speaker 1: was just so it was so vague. It could be

872
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,359
Speaker 1: interpreted in so many ways. And just to take one

873
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: example of the clue where warm waters halt, you know,

874
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 1: it could refer to it like uncountable sort of hydrothermal locations.

875
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:47,359
Speaker 1: You know, there's I mean, there's so many. I went

876
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,759
Speaker 1: down to the Boiling River when I first moved to

877
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 1: Montana looking looking for this treasure, A big box, you

878
00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: know what I may have, but I wasn't you know,

879
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 1: maybe I mistake it for a rock. But because fed

880
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 1: But then one of these treasure hunters, that the primary

881
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:10,280
Speaker 1: treasure hunter your profile talks about that Fenn had mentioned

882
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: in some writing or some lecture or something he had

883
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 1: mentioned as a kid being in the river and how

884
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 1: he would hop around near a hot spring trying to

885
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 1: find water was boiling Actually okay, it was, but that

886
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 1: he would hop around and talk about places that were

887
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 1: too hot, places that were too cold, and so him saying,

888
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,720
Speaker 1: begin we're warm waters and or whatever. Lad some serious

889
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:34,760
Speaker 1: people to think that that's that that that like, that's

890
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 1: got to be like kind of where you need to look.

891
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 1: And you get another guy that thought Sunlight basin right.

892
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 1: That was also the same guy who whose first search

893
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 1: location was boiling River. Um really fixed on Sunlight Basin

894
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 1: because that was the place where he found, you know,

895
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 1: the Salinger Ranch, and there were other sunlight he thought

896
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 1: might refer to the warmth Sunlight Creek um and he

897
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 1: found there was a mining aim where his clues sort

898
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 1: of had led him there that happened to be owned

899
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 1: by an LLC company that was registered to an attorney

900
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 1: and Cody you sat on a museum board with fen

901
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,399
Speaker 1: So he thought, you know, that was that seemed kind

902
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:17,280
Speaker 1: of interesting. And one of the areas these guys focused

903
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:21,239
Speaker 1: was is it on public or private land? And one

904
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 1: of the things they looked at was this idea that

905
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 1: Fenn probably did some due diligence about the legality and

906
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,800
Speaker 1: so explained that a little bit of the of the solve.

907
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 1: I mean, there were so many potential legal issues, right

908
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 1: like what what's what are the tax issues depending on

909
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 1: what kind of land it's on? Um, you know what

910
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 1: are is it government property? Or can a finder claim

911
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,479
Speaker 1: at his property? Um? You know what's going to happen

912
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:50,320
Speaker 1: with this is are the land right stable? Like in

913
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,319
Speaker 1: five hundred years will the same or the land still

914
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:55,719
Speaker 1: be preserved in the same way, or might have come

915
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,240
Speaker 1: into private ownership or at least out for logging or whatnot.

916
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 1: So you know, the was a lot of thought given

917
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:05,720
Speaker 1: to what kind of land might find have most seriously

918
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 1: considered to to to avoid those issues? And where was

919
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 1: the the good money was on? What public or private?

920
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 1: I would say public, but um, but even that had

921
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 1: a lot of complications. I mean private probably had more complications.

922
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:23,879
Speaker 1: You couldn't search it, You couldn't search somewhere where people

923
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to look. Yeah, unless it was private

924
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 1: land that he secretly owned, which was one possibility. People

925
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 1: looked at and they tried to search to see if

926
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,360
Speaker 1: you were looking through public records looking for but you know,

927
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,759
Speaker 1: things are kind of concealed by corporate ownership, and but

928
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 1: there was a lot of attention paid to that possibility. Uh,

929
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 1: did he at one point in time, I think Spencer

930
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:50,439
Speaker 1: mentioned to me, did he at one point in time

931
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,439
Speaker 1: announce that someone had been a couple of hundred yards

932
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:56,800
Speaker 1: from it? He said, on more than one occasion that

933
00:54:57,960 --> 00:54:59,959
Speaker 1: a bunch of people have been within five hundred feet

934
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 1: and one or two people have been within two hundred

935
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:05,919
Speaker 1: feet of the treasure, like actual searchers, actual searchers, because

936
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 1: they would send him emails. He was feeling hundred hundreds

937
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:12,240
Speaker 1: of emails, like over a hundred a day. UM. Searchers

938
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 1: were constantly contacting him, and he was, you know, engaging

939
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 1: with them. UM. And so they would say, hey, I

940
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 1: just you know, here's my solve. They would want to

941
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 1: tell him there solved. I think maybe some of them

942
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 1: were hoping he would give him a clue or a

943
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 1: hint and um, which he would not do for the

944
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: most part. UM. And so that's how we knew where

945
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 1: people were searching. And like all this dialogue um that

946
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 1: kind of happens among fen and searchers. And then Fan

947
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 1: and media, um, and these different interviews. It causes like

948
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 1: some missing clues that like is it real? Is it not.

949
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 1: One of them that it came across a lot was

950
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 1: that Fenn had supposedly said at some point during this

951
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 1: that he had made a day trip from his house

952
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 1: to hide the treasure, which would hung up a lot

953
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:00,920
Speaker 1: of people like, Okay, well then it can only be

954
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:04,279
Speaker 1: this far north from his house. But you start looking

955
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 1: for and you can't actually find where he said that.

956
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 1: But there's like a of of the searchers that think

957
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:13,720
Speaker 1: that's like a legit clue, but it can't be traced anywhere.

958
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:15,320
Speaker 1: And so I think there's a lot of stuff like

959
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: that specific thing. It's like when that general supposedly said

960
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 1: that the way to beat the planes Indians is to

961
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:31,440
Speaker 1: kill all the buffalo and then historians eventually realized that

962
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 1: that was never said. Yeah, So like the searching community

963
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 1: had intentionally and unintentionally created these red herrings, um like

964
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:43,359
Speaker 1: this you know, it's a day trip from his house

965
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,000
Speaker 1: sort of thing. They were also like these super searchers

966
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 1: who kind of befriended Fen and would really focus a

967
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 1: lot on developing that relationship, and it created a sort

968
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:56,320
Speaker 1: of amount of disharmony and politics in the in the

969
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:59,399
Speaker 1: Chase community, because people would think that some people were

970
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:02,200
Speaker 1: secretly be and given like a leg up that they

971
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:05,319
Speaker 1: didn't have, that they were getting tips from fenn Uh.

972
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 1: I want to bump along to more contemporary realizations here,

973
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 1: but a thing that I want to cover um two observations.

974
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 1: One was I'm sure there were people that were secretive,

975
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 1: but it tended to be collaborative. You would post yourselves,

976
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 1: I mean the collaborative people would and the secret ones

977
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:30,040
Speaker 1: you wouldn't. So there was a community people who be like, hey,

978
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 1: how about this, Hey how about this? Not like hoarding

979
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 1: it for themselves, but they just wanted to like see

980
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 1: it gets. They wanted to see resolution and not so

981
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 1: much take ownership of who Um one of the searchers

982
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 1: that the primary search you focused on, tell his name again,

983
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 1: justin posey. Who Um takes an extremely organized, passionate, expensive,

984
00:57:54,200 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 1: exhaustive approach to this. He and a friend it on

985
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 1: an idea they don't attempt They hit on an idea

986
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 1: of this this technological tool that's out there that can

987
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 1: track someone's eyeballs and looking at a screen, like what

988
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:16,240
Speaker 1: are they looking at? As they're looking at a screen.

989
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 1: It's software that will see what would be to the

990
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 1: human eye imperceptible movements and also what you're trying not

991
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 1: to look at. So you can show someone a screen

992
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 1: and get a sense like this person is is purposefully

993
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 1: not putting their eyes in that direction or whatever, and

994
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 1: they get this idea that if they could get fed

995
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 1: in the room with this software, with this program and

996
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:49,320
Speaker 1: flash for him a map of the Rockies, they will

997
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:57,280
Speaker 1: pick up what is eyeballs don't want and this eyeballs

998
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 1: betray it doesn't want lie to detector tests like CIA

999
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 1: next level stuff, and then they would dynamically keep changing

1000
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:06,960
Speaker 1: what he was seeing. So if like his eye was

1001
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 1: going towards let's say first it's in Wyoming, like Northwestern Wyoming,

1002
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 1: then it would immediately like zoom in on a close

1003
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 1: up of Northwestern Wyoming, and then it would look at

1004
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 1: what's he looking at or avoiding looking at there, and

1005
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:19,560
Speaker 1: they would do it like very rapidly. I mean the

1006
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 1: computer could do it almost instantaneously. And I mean Justin

1007
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:26,000
Speaker 1: said when he was working on eye tracking technology for

1008
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:29,120
Speaker 1: a major technology company and he's he's a software um,

1009
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 1: you know, engineer, Uh, that it's shockingly precise, and he

1010
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 1: doesn't do it on ethical grounds, right. I mean, first

1011
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 1: of all, getting fan in the room and looking at

1012
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:46,840
Speaker 1: a screen already begins to tread close to potentially sounding

1013
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 1: like kidnapping. But even if he's there voluntarily, Um, it

1014
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:55,600
Speaker 1: just seemed like not, you know, not fair play. Like

1015
00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 1: it's it's almost like yea, you know, and they're interesting

1016
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 1: using an unconventional Yeah, they're interested in fairy player. All right,

1017
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:06,040
Speaker 1: now we're gonna jump ahead. I want to ask Ben

1018
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:09,760
Speaker 1: what his personal favorite find theory was like if you

1019
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 1: had to guess um where it was. I mean, I

1020
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:20,920
Speaker 1: I kind of think that these the solution that I

1021
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:22,920
Speaker 1: might talk about it a little bit was the correct one.

1022
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:28,440
Speaker 1: I don't know, how about you, Well, I don't know.

1023
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 1: I enjoyed all of it. They're like biased. I liked

1024
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:34,880
Speaker 1: the idea of it being in Paradise Valley because it's

1025
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 1: an hour from where we're sitting right now. Um, and

1026
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 1: there was like a lot of very obvious um stuff

1027
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 1: in there that seemed to make sense where it was like, um,

1028
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 1: the warm waters haul at the boiling river, right the

1029
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:51,080
Speaker 1: canyon down Yankee Jim Canyon HOMEO Brown the Joe Brown

1030
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:54,240
Speaker 1: boat launch. Um, the end is drawing. Ever Now there's

1031
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:57,280
Speaker 1: ny Montana, And because I live here, I like the

1032
01:00:57,360 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 1: idea of the Paradise Valley thing. And you're kind of

1033
01:00:59,880 --> 01:01:05,120
Speaker 1: a rockhound. Yeah, but rockhound. That's that's actually like probably

1034
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:07,920
Speaker 1: where I saw the greatest overlap in communities were like

1035
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:09,959
Speaker 1: people who like to look for rocks and then people

1036
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 1: who like to look for treasure, way more so than

1037
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:16,040
Speaker 1: like people who like fishing or mushroom hunting or something like, Dude,

1038
01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:17,480
Speaker 1: I need to tell you if you want some yellow

1039
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 1: stone egg and holy ship, I found the motherload South later.

1040
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:37,560
Speaker 1: I'll tell you later. Like every big news story. Um,

1041
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:41,000
Speaker 1: I wake up one day not long ago, and I

1042
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 1: have many, many text messages from various friends. Uh, the

1043
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:55,040
Speaker 1: fen cash has been discovered. Immediately everyone I talked to

1044
01:01:57,120 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 1: says bullshit. M Because I'll tell you why it is bullshit.

1045
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 1: Forest Fan, these five people have died. Forrest Fan is

1046
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:15,800
Speaker 1: under pressure to uh stop the bleeding. Um, he's being

1047
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:19,120
Speaker 1: sued by various participants who have devoted the decade of

1048
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:23,760
Speaker 1: their life to finding the treasure. Uh, there's any like

1049
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:26,919
Speaker 1: not emerging. There's always been a rumor that it's a lie.

1050
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:31,840
Speaker 1: It's becoming to burden some for him. He's of failing health,

1051
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:33,960
Speaker 1: which was borne out by the fact that he died

1052
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:38,160
Speaker 1: a couple of days ago. Is of failing health. Uh,

1053
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 1: And he just needs to bring it to a close.

1054
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:48,560
Speaker 1: The fun is over. So he bullshits up some photos

1055
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 1: or whatever, and and and just tries to like wind

1056
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:54,320
Speaker 1: it down. Not a lot of clarity. The guy that

1057
01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:57,360
Speaker 1: found it doesn't want to be known. It's all a lie.

1058
01:02:57,520 --> 01:02:58,960
Speaker 1: And that just goes to show you that it's all

1059
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:03,840
Speaker 1: a lie. That is the the initial narrative as I

1060
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:08,120
Speaker 1: understood it is that Ferres Spencer. Um. I don't think

1061
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:16,280
Speaker 1: everybody was that pessimistic or like you and I were. Uh. Yeah,

1062
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:19,480
Speaker 1: So I feel that way a little bit right right

1063
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:22,280
Speaker 1: now now looking back now that he died in like

1064
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:24,120
Speaker 1: September and it was found in I don't know what

1065
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:28,480
Speaker 1: was it June June? Right again, Like the timing is

1066
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:30,760
Speaker 1: a little bit suspicious, just like with the FBI rate

1067
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:34,200
Speaker 1: and him hiding the thing. Um. But yeah, I don't know,

1068
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:37,560
Speaker 1: there's like warranted suspicion. Still, I'll let Ben take it

1069
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:40,840
Speaker 1: from here. Just one other one other part of the

1070
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:43,760
Speaker 1: burden was like, I mean, his family was dealing with

1071
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:45,800
Speaker 1: the Like they had a guy break into their house

1072
01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:48,520
Speaker 1: with an axe and his daughter held the guy at gunpoint.

1073
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:51,640
Speaker 1: There was another guy who was stalking his granddaughter. So like,

1074
01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:54,280
Speaker 1: Fenn had a lot of reasons why he might want to,

1075
01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 1: you know, he'd created a monster and he might want

1076
01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:59,840
Speaker 1: to to end this. Um, So tell us what's known

1077
01:03:59,920 --> 01:04:02,640
Speaker 1: about the finder and what might be known about where

1078
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:05,320
Speaker 1: it was found? All right, So Fenn initially just says

1079
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:08,560
Speaker 1: it's been found. Kind of more details to come, um,

1080
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 1: you know, people were a lot of people were skeptical,

1081
01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:15,600
Speaker 1: people wanted to know more. Maybe a week later we

1082
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:18,720
Speaker 1: post a couple of photos of him with what looks

1083
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:21,040
Speaker 1: like the recovered treasure and what looks like like a

1084
01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:23,800
Speaker 1: lawyer's office at a conference table. Um. But it's got

1085
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:26,200
Speaker 1: you know, dirt encrustment on some of it and age

1086
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:29,560
Speaker 1: signs of aging. Um. But still it just wasn't enough,

1087
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:32,800
Speaker 1: and people were like getting really angry both at him

1088
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:35,720
Speaker 1: and the finder for not telling more about what where

1089
01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:38,080
Speaker 1: it had been found. And Fenn said, I have always said,

1090
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:39,720
Speaker 1: and this is true, he had always said, I'm gonna

1091
01:04:40,120 --> 01:04:44,080
Speaker 1: leave it to the finder to choose whether or not

1092
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 1: to identify themselves and to choose whether or not to

1093
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:50,880
Speaker 1: reveal the location UM, and the speculation was it was

1094
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 1: for the legal potential legal implications. What if the guy

1095
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:55,640
Speaker 1: doesn't want to pay taxes on it and report it

1096
01:04:55,680 --> 01:04:57,040
Speaker 1: to the I R. S. Fenn had always been kind

1097
01:04:57,040 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 1: of anti government, so he might be sympathetic to that.

1098
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:01,560
Speaker 1: In any case, he had said that's what he would do,

1099
01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:03,920
Speaker 1: and he did it. But people were really angry about it.

1100
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:06,080
Speaker 1: Everyone wanted closure. A lot of people thought it was

1101
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 1: a hoax. I mean I was, I was pretty skeptical

1102
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:11,440
Speaker 1: for all the reasons you mentioned. UM. Anyway, there's a

1103
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:14,080
Speaker 1: ton of pressure on him. Finally, a couple of weeks

1104
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:19,120
Speaker 1: after the discovery, he posts online again. He says, the

1105
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:22,160
Speaker 1: finders agreed, you know, for the benefit of the community,

1106
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:24,600
Speaker 1: that I can reveal another detail, and that is the

1107
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:27,120
Speaker 1: state in which it was found. It was found in Wyoming,

1108
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 1: So some people were satisfied by that. Some people thought

1109
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 1: it was further evidence of something not on the up

1110
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:40,840
Speaker 1: and up because the three lawsuits against him concerned Colorado

1111
01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:43,320
Speaker 1: and New Mexico. So by saying it was in Wyoming,

1112
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:46,800
Speaker 1: he immediately kind of invalidated the premises of these lawsuits,

1113
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 1: and like the singular details that he had given were

1114
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:53,760
Speaker 1: that he was a man and he was from back East,

1115
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:56,160
Speaker 1: which when you live in New Mexico, there's a hell

1116
01:05:56,200 --> 01:05:58,120
Speaker 1: of a lot that's east of you. So that just

1117
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:01,440
Speaker 1: like the details weren't even deep. Hailes really no best

1118
01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:05,280
Speaker 1: on how back East has used for a guy who hits.

1119
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:12,160
Speaker 1: It's not some dude from Nebraska. Okay, it's not. It's not.

1120
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:15,200
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not. It doesn't narrow it. It trims

1121
01:06:15,240 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 1: off maybe a hundred million Americans, but there's still a

1122
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:23,280
Speaker 1: couple hundred million left over that way. The Santa Fe

1123
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:26,240
Speaker 1: New Mexican, which is his hometown newspaper, after like the

1124
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:28,920
Speaker 1: solve or after it was found and it was announced

1125
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:31,920
Speaker 1: him stuff, um, they had they made a really good analogies.

1126
01:06:32,040 --> 01:06:35,080
Speaker 1: They said, this is like a detective solving a murder

1127
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:41,200
Speaker 1: without identifying the killer. That's like the feeling that well,

1128
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:46,400
Speaker 1: if you listen to this podcast, you would be familiar

1129
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:48,760
Speaker 1: with the story. We had an episode with a guy

1130
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 1: very similar to this episode, with a writer who Summit

1131
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:55,000
Speaker 1: missing in Costa Rica. The assumption was that he had

1132
01:06:55,040 --> 01:07:00,080
Speaker 1: been murdered, okay, and it was about his efforts to

1133
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:04,760
Speaker 1: find his son. Roman Dial wrote a book about this.

1134
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:08,160
Speaker 1: It was his efforts to find his son's body, identify

1135
01:07:08,280 --> 01:07:11,880
Speaker 1: the murderer, and the end his son was killed by

1136
01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:15,480
Speaker 1: a tree that fell in a storm. So he solved

1137
01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:20,600
Speaker 1: a murder but did not identify a killer. Put that

1138
01:07:20,680 --> 01:07:24,479
Speaker 1: in your pipe, Spencer, new Heart. It's like that same

1139
01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:29,720
Speaker 1: unsatisfying feeling though. Oh yeah, I'm with you, but that

1140
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:33,160
Speaker 1: your pipe and smoke it, Spencer. No, you tell that

1141
01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 1: to the Santa fe New Mexican. All right, Ben, go on,

1142
01:07:39,080 --> 01:07:43,800
Speaker 1: it's found. It's it's found, uh, you know, by a

1143
01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:51,160
Speaker 1: shy guy back east backs real Wallflower. This guy, Um,

1144
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:56,280
Speaker 1: it's in Wyoming. You know, people were just not people

1145
01:07:56,320 --> 01:08:00,480
Speaker 1: were not satisfied, and so the suspicion and the skepticism,

1146
01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:04,760
Speaker 1: I would say, you know increased. Um. People wanted to

1147
01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:06,400
Speaker 1: know more. They just and they weren't buying it. And

1148
01:08:06,560 --> 01:08:09,760
Speaker 1: a lot of people, including like some of the most focused,

1149
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:16,200
Speaker 1: um devoted you know, sensible searchers thought thought like Fenn

1150
01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:19,280
Speaker 1: had ended the hunt and and gotten the treasure, retrieved

1151
01:08:19,280 --> 01:08:21,439
Speaker 1: the treasure or had a family member to it, and

1152
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:25,080
Speaker 1: the searcher again that you spend the time on Posey,

1153
01:08:25,240 --> 01:08:29,760
Speaker 1: Justin Justin Posey. At first, he's like depressed and kind

1154
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:34,280
Speaker 1: of catatonic. Yeah, but then instead of quitting searching, instead

1155
01:08:34,320 --> 01:08:35,880
Speaker 1: of being like, yeah, I'll move on to whatever the

1156
01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:39,800
Speaker 1: hell's next, like, uh, I'll get a dog and hang

1157
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:44,880
Speaker 1: out at home, he's like he resumes just searching for

1158
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:49,560
Speaker 1: the spot where it had been well just as insane

1159
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:51,760
Speaker 1: as a side note. As a side note, I mean

1160
01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:57,240
Speaker 1: he already had a dog, dog I forgot about. So.

1161
01:08:57,640 --> 01:09:01,280
Speaker 1: One of one of his super methodical, you know, tactics

1162
01:09:01,400 --> 01:09:03,800
Speaker 1: that he used to kind of increase his chances of

1163
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:06,640
Speaker 1: finding the treasure was he had a visla named uh

1164
01:09:06,920 --> 01:09:10,680
Speaker 1: Tucker Visla, and he had read about how in the

1165
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:15,479
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties in Russia, in Finland and Sweden they had

1166
01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:19,080
Speaker 1: geologists had trained what we're called or dogs who had

1167
01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:22,800
Speaker 1: an ability to to sniff out mineral deposits you know

1168
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:26,400
Speaker 1: that are like buried forty deep. And so he began

1169
01:09:26,479 --> 01:09:28,080
Speaker 1: to wonder, what what you know? We know the chest

1170
01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:30,519
Speaker 1: is made of bronze. We also know that searchers have

1171
01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 1: gotten within five two hundred feet of the chest. You know,

1172
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:35,760
Speaker 1: it would really suck if I got close to the chest,

1173
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:38,800
Speaker 1: but not close enough. I could at least eliminate that

1174
01:09:38,880 --> 01:09:42,439
Speaker 1: possibility if I trained Tucker to be able to smell bronze.

1175
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:46,679
Speaker 1: So he trained Tucker to smell bronze, burying dog treats

1176
01:09:46,760 --> 01:09:51,400
Speaker 1: next to the bronze chunks and metal amazon correct, and

1177
01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:53,320
Speaker 1: then eventually just would bury the bronze and give the

1178
01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:58,960
Speaker 1: dog a treat. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, this fella, this gentleman

1179
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:02,479
Speaker 1: is like, wow, just keep searching and just trying to

1180
01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:07,800
Speaker 1: find a little hole where some other dude dragged a

1181
01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 1: treasure out. I mean, he was not he was not alone,

1182
01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:12,360
Speaker 1: and he was not alone. An enormous number of people

1183
01:10:12,439 --> 01:10:14,639
Speaker 1: like I talked to would be like, you know, I'd

1184
01:10:14,640 --> 01:10:15,680
Speaker 1: be like, what are you gonna do now that the

1185
01:10:15,720 --> 01:10:17,920
Speaker 1: search is over? And be like, Oh, I'm going I'm

1186
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:20,639
Speaker 1: going searching next week. What's that song? The search is over?

1187
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:26,960
Speaker 1: You were with me? What's that song you were with me?

1188
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:30,840
Speaker 1: It's like Peter's Terror or something. The search is over.

1189
01:10:31,320 --> 01:10:34,760
Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm talking about. You were It's

1190
01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:40,800
Speaker 1: like the last thing he says, the searches. Anyhow, you

1191
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:44,559
Speaker 1: guys don't know the song talk about. I was gonna say,

1192
01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:46,880
Speaker 1: it's like a sun cost like fallacy type thing right

1193
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:49,160
Speaker 1: where it's just like you've dedicated your whole life to this.

1194
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:53,639
Speaker 1: It's like, well, I gotta keep going. In the same

1195
01:10:53,680 --> 01:10:55,080
Speaker 1: way that there were people who are like, yeah, my

1196
01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:57,160
Speaker 1: solve is correct, and the fact that the treasure is there,

1197
01:10:57,400 --> 01:10:59,439
Speaker 1: you know, not there means like it wasn't there he

1198
01:10:59,479 --> 01:11:03,479
Speaker 1: took it. These people would say, well, um, you know,

1199
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:05,400
Speaker 1: they would get like a second there's a second treasure,

1200
01:11:05,479 --> 01:11:07,360
Speaker 1: Like they would have theories like there's a second treasure

1201
01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:11,679
Speaker 1: buried there, or the treasure the treasurer uh finder probably

1202
01:11:11,800 --> 01:11:13,240
Speaker 1: left part of the treasure there because that's what I

1203
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:15,120
Speaker 1: would have done. So there was there were there were

1204
01:11:15,200 --> 01:11:29,320
Speaker 1: reasonings behind is it Peter Starr? Hit it, Steve, I'll

1205
01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:46,320
Speaker 1: say it again. Let's say it again, dude. When they

1206
01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:48,080
Speaker 1: make this into a movie and Ben's like in the

1207
01:11:48,160 --> 01:11:50,320
Speaker 1: movie and ship and the end, they're gonna have this

1208
01:11:50,400 --> 01:11:59,599
Speaker 1: song play survivor, then you're saying about a second treasure.

1209
01:12:00,640 --> 01:12:03,360
Speaker 1: No wait, hold on, So I have a question. Out

1210
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:07,040
Speaker 1: of all of the searchers who you interviewed, is there

1211
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:14,559
Speaker 1: common thread, like what's the typical psychological profiles? I mean,

1212
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:17,880
Speaker 1: there was actually a scholarly study done by a psychologist

1213
01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:20,719
Speaker 1: at the University of North Dakota of the fen Chase

1214
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:24,640
Speaker 1: community UM and you know, I mean you read the

1215
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:27,560
Speaker 1: study and which is available online, and it's like, you know,

1216
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:31,160
Speaker 1: he's using all the psychological terminology like normative you know, personality,

1217
01:12:31,240 --> 01:12:33,040
Speaker 1: and like mood disorder and da da da da. But

1218
01:12:33,080 --> 01:12:36,840
Speaker 1: I mean, basically it seemed like most of them were

1219
01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:40,080
Speaker 1: pretty normal. But there were ten percent of the community

1220
01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:43,000
Speaker 1: who described themselves as having an addiction. And those are

1221
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:45,559
Speaker 1: the people who are most active on the forums. Those

1222
01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:48,000
Speaker 1: are probably most of the people I talked to because

1223
01:12:48,040 --> 01:12:49,920
Speaker 1: that they're the ones who kind of know about each other.

1224
01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:57,080
Speaker 1: And you you meet at these events, get into I'm

1225
01:12:57,120 --> 01:12:58,920
Speaker 1: trying to lead you gently where I want you to go.

1226
01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:06,920
Speaker 1: Out here, ben h the dude Posy wants to find

1227
01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:12,000
Speaker 1: the spot because if he can find the spot, he

1228
01:13:12,080 --> 01:13:15,120
Speaker 1: can he can find what the solve was, or he

1229
01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:19,439
Speaker 1: can legitimize, like if he could figure out what it was,

1230
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:25,519
Speaker 1: then he could reverse engineer whether it was real or not.

1231
01:13:27,760 --> 01:13:29,400
Speaker 1: He didn't doubt that it was real, but since for

1232
01:13:29,560 --> 01:13:32,920
Speaker 1: him the main goal was always like the cracking of

1233
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:35,640
Speaker 1: the puzzle and not the getting of the gold, like

1234
01:13:36,080 --> 01:13:38,880
Speaker 1: the fact that someone had found the gold didn't end

1235
01:13:39,040 --> 01:13:41,600
Speaker 1: the puzzle challenge for him, so he thought he just

1236
01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:43,640
Speaker 1: still wanted to solve the puzzle. And now he was

1237
01:13:43,680 --> 01:13:45,240
Speaker 1: even more motivated because it's been found, and he was,

1238
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:47,280
Speaker 1: I mean, there was a concern that am I even

1239
01:13:47,320 --> 01:13:49,879
Speaker 1: gonna know that I'm there if the chest has been removed?

1240
01:13:49,920 --> 01:13:52,800
Speaker 1: But maybe if I do it relatively soon, they'll still

1241
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:55,080
Speaker 1: be at least before this winter, you know, they will

1242
01:13:55,160 --> 01:13:57,280
Speaker 1: still be evidence of where the chest. And he's got

1243
01:13:57,360 --> 01:14:01,560
Speaker 1: photographs to go off now because the finder snapped a

1244
01:14:01,640 --> 01:14:04,280
Speaker 1: couple of cell phone pictures of the box. What happened

1245
01:14:04,400 --> 01:14:12,160
Speaker 1: is so in September, someone calling himself the Finder post

1246
01:14:12,240 --> 01:14:15,439
Speaker 1: an article on a website called Medium saying I'm the

1247
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:18,360
Speaker 1: Finder and telling the story about but a pretty vague story,

1248
01:14:18,439 --> 01:14:20,479
Speaker 1: but about how they're the finder and now they've they

1249
01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:23,000
Speaker 1: spent twenty five days once they knew the general area,

1250
01:14:23,040 --> 01:14:25,120
Speaker 1: and that you know, they were crying and getting torn

1251
01:14:25,200 --> 01:14:27,559
Speaker 1: by branches and they found the treasure, UM and then

1252
01:14:27,600 --> 01:14:30,559
Speaker 1: they met with Forest and all of this. But they're

1253
01:14:30,560 --> 01:14:33,519
Speaker 1: anonymous UM and normally it would be easy to dismiss

1254
01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:36,040
Speaker 1: them because tons of people throughout this whole thing have

1255
01:14:36,120 --> 01:14:39,120
Speaker 1: claimed I found the treasure um. But in this case

1256
01:14:39,640 --> 01:14:44,200
Speaker 1: they included photographs that had not been We're not among

1257
01:14:44,240 --> 01:14:47,360
Speaker 1: the photographs Fenn had posted, so but they were clearly

1258
01:14:47,439 --> 01:14:49,840
Speaker 1: outtakes from the same photo shoot, so it had to

1259
01:14:49,920 --> 01:14:54,639
Speaker 1: be someone who had some connection to the situation. UM. Also,

1260
01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:56,760
Speaker 1: the Fenn family posted a link to this article on

1261
01:14:56,880 --> 01:15:01,080
Speaker 1: their website, which gave it that validation. So people are like, Okay,

1262
01:15:01,120 --> 01:15:05,320
Speaker 1: this is the finder. Okay. So then a few weeks later,

1263
01:15:05,840 --> 01:15:09,760
Speaker 1: another searcher gets an email from someone who says like,

1264
01:15:09,880 --> 01:15:11,880
Speaker 1: I know who the finder is and I know where

1265
01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:18,479
Speaker 1: the treasure was found um, And that finder gets justin

1266
01:15:18,600 --> 01:15:21,280
Speaker 1: involved and together they go out looking for what is

1267
01:15:21,280 --> 01:15:25,519
Speaker 1: supposedly the real location where the treasure was found, and

1268
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:32,040
Speaker 1: it was and it was in Yellowstone and the the solve,

1269
01:15:32,439 --> 01:15:36,439
Speaker 1: according to this source was that basically there were words

1270
01:15:36,479 --> 01:15:40,400
Speaker 1: in the poem that sound or looked like numbers. UM.

1271
01:15:41,040 --> 01:15:43,920
Speaker 1: There were either they were called like homophones or which

1272
01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:46,439
Speaker 1: was like sounded like words or kangaroo words where there

1273
01:15:46,479 --> 01:15:48,640
Speaker 1: would be like a number word within another word like

1274
01:15:49,040 --> 01:15:52,560
Speaker 1: done includes the word one right. And basically if you

1275
01:15:52,640 --> 01:15:54,479
Speaker 1: took all of these numbers, that you could take out

1276
01:15:54,479 --> 01:15:58,920
Speaker 1: of the poem. In sequence, Um, they gave you latitude

1277
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:02,559
Speaker 1: and longitude coordinates, and those coordinates were at a site

1278
01:16:02,600 --> 01:16:08,240
Speaker 1: in Yellowstone Park. Where at in Yellowstone near to s

1279
01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:11,439
Speaker 1: a lake um at the continental divide, which is kind

1280
01:16:11,479 --> 01:16:14,640
Speaker 1: of like like looking at it, it's kind of like

1281
01:16:15,479 --> 01:16:20,080
Speaker 1: an auspicious sort of lake for clue given, because it

1282
01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:25,560
Speaker 1: flows both ways or like a drains. It sits on

1283
01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:27,599
Speaker 1: a continental divide, right and somehow like drains one way

1284
01:16:27,640 --> 01:16:29,240
Speaker 1: and the other or something like that. Apparently it's the

1285
01:16:29,280 --> 01:16:32,960
Speaker 1: only natural lake in the world that drains to two watersheds. Uh.

1286
01:16:33,320 --> 01:16:39,519
Speaker 1: It's right off right there, so he could have old

1287
01:16:39,600 --> 01:16:42,640
Speaker 1: man could have carried it right from his car. And

1288
01:16:42,760 --> 01:16:51,599
Speaker 1: this dude justin um starts trying to match up photographs, right,

1289
01:16:51,640 --> 01:16:54,920
Speaker 1: I mean, what he's really trying to do is verify

1290
01:16:55,080 --> 01:16:58,600
Speaker 1: the information that this source has provided, right, Um, And

1291
01:16:58,720 --> 01:17:01,599
Speaker 1: the source has provided a few photographs. The sources provided

1292
01:17:01,640 --> 01:17:04,280
Speaker 1: the information of you know, these words in the poem

1293
01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:06,679
Speaker 1: and lead to these coordinates, and so he was trying

1294
01:17:06,720 --> 01:17:09,400
Speaker 1: to verify that what the source was saying and where

1295
01:17:09,439 --> 01:17:13,120
Speaker 1: the source had taken the photos were you know, held up.

1296
01:17:13,720 --> 01:17:15,880
Speaker 1: But there was still a question about like is the

1297
01:17:15,920 --> 01:17:18,439
Speaker 1: source credible? Right? And the reason they were taking the

1298
01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:21,680
Speaker 1: source seriously was because it was like right after the

1299
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:25,920
Speaker 1: treasure was found, everyone, like the kind of leaders of

1300
01:17:25,960 --> 01:17:29,280
Speaker 1: the forums were being inundated with like you know, I

1301
01:17:29,400 --> 01:17:31,400
Speaker 1: was the Finder. Like literally like more than thirty people

1302
01:17:31,400 --> 01:17:34,160
Speaker 1: said I was the Finder. Um. They were being inundated

1303
01:17:34,200 --> 01:17:35,800
Speaker 1: with like I know what the solve was, like more

1304
01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:38,200
Speaker 1: than three this is what the solve was. So they

1305
01:17:38,280 --> 01:17:40,439
Speaker 1: just ignored them all. And there was this one guy

1306
01:17:41,040 --> 01:17:44,120
Speaker 1: who sent an email that's you know and to Mike

1307
01:17:44,200 --> 01:17:47,120
Speaker 1: Cowling's who ran you know, one of the sites um

1308
01:17:47,439 --> 01:17:49,679
Speaker 1: saying like I know the Finder, I know the solve,

1309
01:17:49,720 --> 01:17:53,960
Speaker 1: and he wrote back coolbro, and that was it. But

1310
01:17:54,040 --> 01:17:56,639
Speaker 1: then in September, the guy writes him again. He says

1311
01:17:56,680 --> 01:17:58,679
Speaker 1: like next week there's going to be some news coming out.

1312
01:17:59,439 --> 01:18:01,800
Speaker 1: And then the next week this media article comes out

1313
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:04,200
Speaker 1: from the Finder, and so he's like, maybe that guy

1314
01:18:04,240 --> 01:18:06,000
Speaker 1: actually doesn't know something. So then he started talking to

1315
01:18:06,080 --> 01:18:10,240
Speaker 1: him and this this this source basically said he had

1316
01:18:10,320 --> 01:18:12,439
Speaker 1: met the Finder online. There's been a group of them

1317
01:18:12,439 --> 01:18:15,439
Speaker 1: who were discussing these sort of coordinate based and homophone

1318
01:18:15,479 --> 01:18:18,600
Speaker 1: based solves UM and apparently the source was like not

1319
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:20,400
Speaker 1: very happy that now that he was not the finder,

1320
01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:22,160
Speaker 1: and he was like, so I'm just gonna tell you

1321
01:18:22,240 --> 01:18:25,000
Speaker 1: everything I know. Um. And so that's what Justin Posey

1322
01:18:25,080 --> 01:18:27,719
Speaker 1: was going out there with these two other searchers, Cynthia

1323
01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:31,000
Speaker 1: Mitchum and Christie Thor to try to verify what the

1324
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:34,320
Speaker 1: source had said and where did they find. So they

1325
01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:40,519
Speaker 1: so they found First they go out um and find nothing. Okay,

1326
01:18:40,560 --> 01:18:42,280
Speaker 1: they go out to the what they think the GPS

1327
01:18:42,320 --> 01:18:47,000
Speaker 1: coordinates are, find nothing. They go back the next day.

1328
01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:51,040
Speaker 1: I mean, it gets kind of technical, but basically they figured.

1329
01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:53,240
Speaker 1: They they determined that if you wrapped her and I

1330
01:18:53,280 --> 01:18:55,240
Speaker 1: think they talked to the source again, if you start

1331
01:18:55,320 --> 01:18:57,920
Speaker 1: the poem at the beginning where warm waters halt, you

1332
01:18:58,000 --> 01:19:00,320
Speaker 1: get the first of the coordinate numbers, and then you

1333
01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:02,000
Speaker 1: have to wrap around at the end of the poem

1334
01:19:02,080 --> 01:19:04,559
Speaker 1: to the beginning of the poem, and so the numbers

1335
01:19:04,600 --> 01:19:06,679
Speaker 1: in the first stanza come last. And if you also

1336
01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:12,600
Speaker 1: use like what is apparently standard decimal notation UM for coordinates,

1337
01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:17,120
Speaker 1: you get point to um, which is twelve seconds. And

1338
01:19:17,160 --> 01:19:19,439
Speaker 1: they had previously been treating two as meaning two seconds.

1339
01:19:20,280 --> 01:19:25,800
Speaker 1: Twelve seconds put them exactly at a location that Justin

1340
01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:28,439
Speaker 1: Posey was able, to his satisfaction, to match up with

1341
01:19:28,479 --> 01:19:31,479
Speaker 1: the source photographs based on the angles of leaning trees,

1342
01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:36,040
Speaker 1: the distance between trees, the height of the sun, all

1343
01:19:36,120 --> 01:19:39,360
Speaker 1: of that, although obviously the more kind of the stuff

1344
01:19:39,400 --> 01:19:42,200
Speaker 1: that deteriorates more quickly was less reliable. Well, but there

1345
01:19:42,240 --> 01:19:46,439
Speaker 1: was a thing about there was three species represented on

1346
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:50,040
Speaker 1: the ground right right, it's fairly ubiquitous in the west,

1347
01:19:50,080 --> 01:19:52,960
Speaker 1: but still there's like he would he was looking at

1348
01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:56,839
Speaker 1: overlays of these three species exactly like in the original photographs.

1349
01:19:57,360 --> 01:19:59,720
Speaker 1: One deciduous leaf that they thought was an aspen, there

1350
01:19:59,760 --> 01:20:02,320
Speaker 1: were large pole pine needles, and there was one a

1351
01:20:02,360 --> 01:20:04,280
Speaker 1: cottonwood twig, I think they thought. So he was looking

1352
01:20:04,360 --> 01:20:06,600
Speaker 1: for like the convergence of those three species, which is

1353
01:20:06,600 --> 01:20:09,559
Speaker 1: a mighty big area. But still apparently I mean, he said, actually,

1354
01:20:09,600 --> 01:20:12,320
Speaker 1: it turns out that aspen forestation is not nearly as

1355
01:20:12,520 --> 01:20:15,040
Speaker 1: ubiquitous as you might think in Wyoming. I don't know,

1356
01:20:16,040 --> 01:20:19,599
Speaker 1: you might know what the work. We actually had somebody

1357
01:20:19,640 --> 01:20:23,679
Speaker 1: Steve and mediator Instagram comments that had commented on multiple

1358
01:20:23,720 --> 01:20:26,240
Speaker 1: posts and they were like, my coworkers solved it. It

1359
01:20:26,360 --> 01:20:29,000
Speaker 1: was my coworker that found it. So then I reached

1360
01:20:29,040 --> 01:20:32,400
Speaker 1: out to that guy, and I was like, who's your coworker?

1361
01:20:32,720 --> 01:20:35,200
Speaker 1: Like why should I believe you that kind of stuff?

1362
01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:36,960
Speaker 1: And he's like, this is what he told me. Here

1363
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:39,640
Speaker 1: you can talk to him. Here's just info. Or no,

1364
01:20:39,680 --> 01:20:41,280
Speaker 1: it's the other way around. He said, well, here's my info.

1365
01:20:41,360 --> 01:20:44,439
Speaker 1: Have him contact me. So he contacted me and he's like, yep,

1366
01:20:44,520 --> 01:20:47,559
Speaker 1: I'm the guy that found it. And I was like, okay, uh,

1367
01:20:48,560 --> 01:20:50,080
Speaker 1: like how can you prove it? Can you like show

1368
01:20:50,120 --> 01:20:52,320
Speaker 1: me a picture or something that we can talk about

1369
01:20:52,360 --> 01:20:54,519
Speaker 1: this more um And he's like, well, here's the deal.

1370
01:20:54,640 --> 01:20:57,160
Speaker 1: There was no treasure, and it was. It was one

1371
01:20:57,160 --> 01:21:00,280
Speaker 1: of those people, as Bennett said earlier, but he had

1372
01:21:00,400 --> 01:21:03,760
Speaker 1: like multiple days exchanging emails and texts and stuff. He

1373
01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:05,120
Speaker 1: was telling me he was the guy and that he

1374
01:21:05,240 --> 01:21:09,120
Speaker 1: was in maybel uh, Colorado and uh. And then he

1375
01:21:09,439 --> 01:21:12,439
Speaker 1: eventually you know, told me. They're like, oh, there actually

1376
01:21:12,520 --> 01:21:14,840
Speaker 1: was no treasure. But I solved his clue and here

1377
01:21:14,920 --> 01:21:18,200
Speaker 1: the reasons why and and stuff like that. But I

1378
01:21:18,320 --> 01:21:19,840
Speaker 1: was hot on the trail for a few days. I

1379
01:21:19,920 --> 01:21:23,400
Speaker 1: was like, I got it. That'd be cool, little feather

1380
01:21:23,840 --> 01:21:27,680
Speaker 1: like internet sleuthan camp. Yeah, Ben, how how confident are

1381
01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:31,240
Speaker 1: you there like that's where it was. I mean, I'm

1382
01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:32,920
Speaker 1: not very I'm not very confident. I mean, I guess

1383
01:21:32,960 --> 01:21:34,920
Speaker 1: the question I asked justin Posey, how confident is he?

1384
01:21:35,600 --> 01:21:39,000
Speaker 1: And he I think put his confidence at like I

1385
01:21:39,080 --> 01:21:41,400
Speaker 1: think he thinks it is it, but there are reasons

1386
01:21:41,479 --> 01:21:43,800
Speaker 1: to to doubt it. I mean, one one thing that

1387
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:46,320
Speaker 1: gave him confidence in it was they scooped up some

1388
01:21:46,439 --> 01:21:48,640
Speaker 1: dirt in a plastic bag at the site that the

1389
01:21:48,920 --> 01:21:50,960
Speaker 1: coordinates led them to and brought it back to the

1390
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:53,120
Speaker 1: parking lot because they hadn't been able to bring Tucker

1391
01:21:53,200 --> 01:21:55,880
Speaker 1: the dog into the park um. And they let's tuck

1392
01:21:55,920 --> 01:21:58,120
Speaker 1: her out of the out of the out of the truck,

1393
01:21:58,200 --> 01:22:00,960
Speaker 1: and he runs around sniffing, and then he gets to

1394
01:22:01,040 --> 01:22:03,680
Speaker 1: the pile of dirt and immediately sits down and his

1395
01:22:03,720 --> 01:22:06,000
Speaker 1: tail starts wagging, which apparently and looks up for a treat,

1396
01:22:06,280 --> 01:22:08,320
Speaker 1: which was apparently the you know what happens when he

1397
01:22:08,360 --> 01:22:10,280
Speaker 1: finds bronze, And so they thought there might be like

1398
01:22:10,640 --> 01:22:14,639
Speaker 1: some sort of you know, menute bronze residue in the dirt.

1399
01:22:16,280 --> 01:22:22,800
Speaker 1: How confident, I just thought, a good idea, man, you

1400
01:22:22,840 --> 01:22:25,479
Speaker 1: gotta get the credit card records of everyone that Fenn

1401
01:22:25,600 --> 01:22:31,080
Speaker 1: knows to see where they were buying gas and see

1402
01:22:31,080 --> 01:22:33,800
Speaker 1: if they were buying gas up thereabouts when they went

1403
01:22:33,880 --> 01:22:36,439
Speaker 1: up to retrieve the box to end the search, and

1404
01:22:36,560 --> 01:22:40,519
Speaker 1: he has relatives who are pilots also though flight records.

1405
01:22:42,320 --> 01:22:47,560
Speaker 1: How confident are you, ah and and as when you

1406
01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:50,599
Speaker 1: answer this, put in the input you have from people

1407
01:22:50,640 --> 01:22:53,800
Speaker 1: who are most obsessive about this, but who are rational individuals.

1408
01:22:54,640 --> 01:22:59,680
Speaker 1: How confident are you not that not that there was

1409
01:22:59,760 --> 01:23:02,960
Speaker 1: a leisure and all that? Okay? How confident are you

1410
01:23:03,400 --> 01:23:08,439
Speaker 1: that it was a legit find and that it wasn't

1411
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:16,120
Speaker 1: a family deciding it's time to wrap it up? I

1412
01:23:16,160 --> 01:23:19,240
Speaker 1: will say, until the latest development with this Coordinate solve,

1413
01:23:19,400 --> 01:23:22,720
Speaker 1: I was actually I was pretty sure the family must

1414
01:23:22,760 --> 01:23:25,760
Speaker 1: have made a decision to wrap it up. This has

1415
01:23:25,840 --> 01:23:29,960
Speaker 1: made me think probably there was a finder it. The

1416
01:23:30,439 --> 01:23:34,560
Speaker 1: chances that you could find latitude and longitude coordinates in

1417
01:23:34,680 --> 01:23:38,639
Speaker 1: sequence in this poem that could lead you of all

1418
01:23:38,720 --> 01:23:41,480
Speaker 1: places on the planet out of billions of possible locations

1419
01:23:41,760 --> 01:23:45,000
Speaker 1: to a spot in the search area is very small,

1420
01:23:45,560 --> 01:23:47,679
Speaker 1: so that carries a certain amount of weight. I also

1421
01:23:47,800 --> 01:23:52,320
Speaker 1: think you know, since this coordinate solve has been announced

1422
01:23:52,360 --> 01:23:54,680
Speaker 1: within the community, I mean, there's been a ton of skepticism,

1423
01:23:54,800 --> 01:23:57,479
Speaker 1: but people are still trying to match the poem clues

1424
01:23:57,600 --> 01:24:01,120
Speaker 1: like home of Brown, where warm waters hall to this location?

1425
01:24:01,560 --> 01:24:03,479
Speaker 1: And I think there's a good chance like none of

1426
01:24:03,560 --> 01:24:05,559
Speaker 1: that ever matter. Yeah, I was going to ask him

1427
01:24:05,920 --> 01:24:08,080
Speaker 1: all of those words were only to lead to get

1428
01:24:08,120 --> 01:24:09,960
Speaker 1: you to figure out the numbers, or if those words

1429
01:24:10,040 --> 01:24:13,720
Speaker 1: also pertained to to cluse. I kind of think so,

1430
01:24:13,760 --> 01:24:16,400
Speaker 1: because even if you know these this location, like, there's

1431
01:24:16,439 --> 01:24:18,160
Speaker 1: no way the words could ever lead you to a

1432
01:24:18,240 --> 01:24:20,680
Speaker 1: price precise place. And if you have the coordinates, you

1433
01:24:20,720 --> 01:24:22,800
Speaker 1: don't need big words. When you need a bunch, you

1434
01:24:22,840 --> 01:24:24,360
Speaker 1: need a bunch of words they have numbers in them.

1435
01:24:24,400 --> 01:24:25,720
Speaker 1: You need a bunch of words that have numbers. And

1436
01:24:25,760 --> 01:24:30,120
Speaker 1: then he also is a fan of the rhyme, so

1437
01:24:30,360 --> 01:24:33,720
Speaker 1: they gotta rhyme, they gotta rhyme. Yep, is it I

1438
01:24:33,840 --> 01:24:36,200
Speaker 1: ambic contameter? I remember learning that in school. I mean

1439
01:24:36,280 --> 01:24:38,840
Speaker 1: that is a meter. I'm not sure if this one

1440
01:24:38,960 --> 01:24:41,719
Speaker 1: is that. I don't remember what it means. I remember

1441
01:24:41,840 --> 01:24:45,560
Speaker 1: needed to learn. I think Shakespeare I am a contameter.

1442
01:24:46,080 --> 01:24:49,519
Speaker 1: You're not gonna have an answer, but like, what will

1443
01:24:49,600 --> 01:24:52,440
Speaker 1: the person do with the treasure how can they possibly

1444
01:24:53,560 --> 01:24:55,680
Speaker 1: use it as a treasure would be used to like

1445
01:24:55,880 --> 01:24:59,000
Speaker 1: get all these riches and not reveal too many things,

1446
01:24:59,160 --> 01:25:02,479
Speaker 1: or like you go back and look for a dude

1447
01:25:02,600 --> 01:25:10,120
Speaker 1: with a lot of jewelry at well, actually would don't

1448
01:25:10,160 --> 01:25:12,040
Speaker 1: expect him to be And they're making a lot of noise.

1449
01:25:12,360 --> 01:25:14,719
Speaker 1: We may have an answer in the medium article posted

1450
01:25:14,760 --> 01:25:17,719
Speaker 1: by the you know Capital Letters the Finder, they said,

1451
01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:20,040
Speaker 1: I'm a millennial and I have student loans, and I

1452
01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:24,439
Speaker 1: cannot afford to keep the treasure. Um. My first attempt

1453
01:25:24,560 --> 01:25:26,720
Speaker 1: is going to be to have it end up in

1454
01:25:26,760 --> 01:25:28,760
Speaker 1: a place for UT wanted it to, which people think

1455
01:25:28,960 --> 01:25:31,120
Speaker 1: was a museum, probably maybe the Buffalo Bill Museum and

1456
01:25:31,160 --> 01:25:33,680
Speaker 1: Cody um. But basically they're going to try to sell

1457
01:25:33,720 --> 01:25:36,920
Speaker 1: it at auction UM, where I think they can maximize

1458
01:25:37,479 --> 01:25:39,640
Speaker 1: the value not just of the actual objects, but of

1459
01:25:39,680 --> 01:25:41,880
Speaker 1: the whole story around it, the historia. It doesn't make

1460
01:25:41,920 --> 01:25:46,920
Speaker 1: any sense to liquidated. Yeah, and then your guy that

1461
01:25:47,080 --> 01:25:49,400
Speaker 1: you spend most of your time with your search, or

1462
01:25:49,439 --> 01:25:51,040
Speaker 1: that you spent because you couldn't spend time with the

1463
01:25:51,240 --> 01:25:53,920
Speaker 1: Finder because he doesn't want to. He doesn't want to,

1464
01:25:54,000 --> 01:25:59,360
Speaker 1: he's too shy, um, too concerned about the whatever economic

1465
01:25:59,680 --> 01:26:06,160
Speaker 1: issue he's faced with now legal issues. The guy, one

1466
01:26:06,160 --> 01:26:09,160
Speaker 1: of the guys you spent time with, was kicking around

1467
01:26:09,320 --> 01:26:12,040
Speaker 1: like how he might like to get it, but acknowledges

1468
01:26:12,080 --> 01:26:14,240
Speaker 1: that it's beyond its probably gonna be beyond his means

1469
01:26:14,280 --> 01:26:17,680
Speaker 1: because it's not even gonna be sticker value. Yeah, I mean,

1470
01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:20,280
Speaker 1: he thinks it will be you know, exponential or multiple.

1471
01:26:20,560 --> 01:26:22,840
Speaker 1: So you know, let's say instead of one million, it's

1472
01:26:22,880 --> 01:26:25,240
Speaker 1: ten million. It was worth a million bucks ten years ago.

1473
01:26:26,240 --> 01:26:28,280
Speaker 1: I mean, it's also based on the you know, fluctuating

1474
01:26:28,320 --> 01:26:32,120
Speaker 1: price of gold, so and whatever, who knows, you know, uh,

1475
01:26:34,120 --> 01:26:36,759
Speaker 1: And you mentioned in the end you close by saying

1476
01:26:36,840 --> 01:26:45,479
Speaker 1: that this searcher chaser is thinking about assembling his own

1477
01:26:45,560 --> 01:26:51,840
Speaker 1: treasure and following in the footsteps and forest Fan. That's right.

1478
01:26:51,920 --> 01:26:54,679
Speaker 1: He found a meteorite which he's confirmed as a meteorite,

1479
01:26:54,840 --> 01:26:57,120
Speaker 1: and apparently there's a lot of there's a lot more

1480
01:26:57,200 --> 01:26:59,200
Speaker 1: where that came from, and so all of them together

1481
01:26:59,200 --> 01:27:01,360
Speaker 1: would be very value able, and that's that would be

1482
01:27:01,400 --> 01:27:03,800
Speaker 1: the basis of this treasure, that he would hide and

1483
01:27:04,120 --> 01:27:15,000
Speaker 1: set up his own treasure hunt. Spencer's perking up. I've

1484
01:27:15,040 --> 01:27:17,840
Speaker 1: had two instances where I thought maybe this is a meteorite,

1485
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:22,360
Speaker 1: and it like the dollar value on those things is crazy.

1486
01:27:23,240 --> 01:27:26,040
Speaker 1: So if this person has a meteorite to hide, that's

1487
01:27:26,760 --> 01:27:29,640
Speaker 1: that's great, that's a valuable treasure. I and Fraser did

1488
01:27:29,680 --> 01:27:32,920
Speaker 1: a piece about meteorites one time, or some aspect of it.

1489
01:27:33,040 --> 01:27:36,240
Speaker 1: He was dealing with a meteorite that it again didn't

1490
01:27:36,960 --> 01:27:41,000
Speaker 1: come through a guy's roof and Montclair, New Jersey, came

1491
01:27:41,040 --> 01:27:49,439
Speaker 1: through his rus and cracked his toilet. Yeah, and he

1492
01:27:49,520 --> 01:27:54,280
Speaker 1: goes upstairs. That a meteorite. So do you think we

1493
01:27:54,400 --> 01:27:57,320
Speaker 1: are going to ever have like the satisfying ending, like

1494
01:27:57,880 --> 01:28:02,240
Speaker 1: the murder solve, but haven't identified the killer thing? Are

1495
01:28:02,240 --> 01:28:05,080
Speaker 1: we going to get all the details someday? I mean,

1496
01:28:05,120 --> 01:28:08,000
Speaker 1: I think the the you know, the combination of the

1497
01:28:08,120 --> 01:28:11,360
Speaker 1: source coming forward if they are legitimate, has kind of

1498
01:28:11,439 --> 01:28:13,800
Speaker 1: taken away a lot of the you know, the best

1499
01:28:13,880 --> 01:28:16,200
Speaker 1: part of the story that the finder has to tell.

1500
01:28:16,280 --> 01:28:19,840
Speaker 1: But I can't see why they wouldn't, especially if they're

1501
01:28:19,880 --> 01:28:22,360
Speaker 1: if if they're concerned about, you know, how much money

1502
01:28:22,400 --> 01:28:24,160
Speaker 1: they have. I mean, the easiest way in the world

1503
01:28:24,200 --> 01:28:26,400
Speaker 1: to make money would be for them to sell their

1504
01:28:26,439 --> 01:28:29,240
Speaker 1: story rights, right, I mean to to They probably published

1505
01:28:29,560 --> 01:28:31,680
Speaker 1: a nice book about it. They could, you know, make

1506
01:28:31,720 --> 01:28:34,320
Speaker 1: a movie about it. Um. So I would. I would

1507
01:28:34,360 --> 01:28:36,080
Speaker 1: think that the finder would want to come forward at

1508
01:28:36,120 --> 01:28:38,479
Speaker 1: some point, especially if it's more than one person, and

1509
01:28:38,520 --> 01:28:40,360
Speaker 1: apparently it might be a team of a few people

1510
01:28:40,920 --> 01:28:44,200
Speaker 1: mm hmm. And that that's also like one of the

1511
01:28:44,240 --> 01:28:47,160
Speaker 1: big red flags for people referring to the forest Fan

1512
01:28:47,479 --> 01:28:50,880
Speaker 1: treasure thing because he self published the book, so he

1513
01:28:51,080 --> 01:28:54,439
Speaker 1: was getting all the proceeds from this treasure map hidden

1514
01:28:54,479 --> 01:28:58,120
Speaker 1: in the poem. And then there was a long stretch

1515
01:28:58,200 --> 01:29:00,120
Speaker 1: there were the books were selling for like a or

1516
01:29:00,240 --> 01:29:06,080
Speaker 1: dollars on Amazon and eBay and it was like incredibly valuable. Um.

1517
01:29:06,479 --> 01:29:10,439
Speaker 1: And so that's it's pretty damn good marketing to be like,

1518
01:29:10,640 --> 01:29:13,120
Speaker 1: here's this book I have, and within it you can

1519
01:29:13,240 --> 01:29:16,280
Speaker 1: find the details to a million dollar treasure that'shidden. I

1520
01:29:16,360 --> 01:29:18,679
Speaker 1: have to say, that's a roundabout way to sell some books.

1521
01:29:18,760 --> 01:29:21,280
Speaker 1: Maybe we should try. And I mean, the one thing

1522
01:29:21,320 --> 01:29:23,799
Speaker 1: I'll say about that is actually the he published three memoirs,

1523
01:29:23,880 --> 01:29:26,400
Speaker 1: and the first one which was self published and sold

1524
01:29:26,439 --> 01:29:28,400
Speaker 1: through this one book store in Santa Fe Collected Works.

1525
01:29:28,640 --> 01:29:30,679
Speaker 1: They got all the profits. He didn't because he wanted

1526
01:29:30,800 --> 01:29:32,680
Speaker 1: people to know, like, I'm not profiting off this. I'm

1527
01:29:32,680 --> 01:29:34,160
Speaker 1: not sure if that's sure of the later books, but

1528
01:29:34,280 --> 01:29:37,599
Speaker 1: that first one he wasn't and he was already wealthy.

1529
01:29:37,640 --> 01:29:39,080
Speaker 1: He was a wealthy guy, so I'm not sure he'd

1530
01:29:39,760 --> 01:29:43,960
Speaker 1: he would do that. Can you close by talk about

1531
01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:50,800
Speaker 1: forest friends death? Nothing suspicious? Nothing suspicious, I mean, and

1532
01:29:51,000 --> 01:29:53,320
Speaker 1: you know he was he turned ninety in August and

1533
01:29:53,400 --> 01:29:57,240
Speaker 1: then um, in early September, there was a kind of

1534
01:29:57,400 --> 01:30:01,080
Speaker 1: last gathering of the most devoted searchers in Yellowstone and

1535
01:30:01,120 --> 01:30:03,519
Speaker 1: a fishing bridge in West Yellowstone and a fishing bridge

1536
01:30:03,840 --> 01:30:06,200
Speaker 1: and which you said, as a sign says you can't fish,

1537
01:30:06,280 --> 01:30:10,800
Speaker 1: which says no fishing allowed. Um. And it was the

1538
01:30:10,880 --> 01:30:14,200
Speaker 1: Labor Day weekend. And then that Monday, uh Fen died

1539
01:30:14,560 --> 01:30:17,200
Speaker 1: of what the Santa Fe police said was natural causes.

1540
01:30:17,680 --> 01:30:21,200
Speaker 1: You know, there was some suspicion or nine years old.

1541
01:30:21,240 --> 01:30:24,760
Speaker 1: He's nine years old. And his wife died a few

1542
01:30:24,800 --> 01:30:28,040
Speaker 1: weeks later, his wife of sixty six years Peggy, Oh,

1543
01:30:28,760 --> 01:30:33,080
Speaker 1: that's touching. Yeah, I like that man. But he held

1544
01:30:33,160 --> 01:30:40,880
Speaker 1: on and my wife dies like fast. Um. One of

1545
01:30:40,920 --> 01:30:43,080
Speaker 1: the things I like the Fenn said was someone was

1546
01:30:43,120 --> 01:30:47,800
Speaker 1: saying him, ah, that he should call the search off,

1547
01:30:48,560 --> 01:30:52,799
Speaker 1: and he said, if there's a pool and people drown

1548
01:30:52,880 --> 01:30:56,280
Speaker 1: in the pool. Do you close the pool or do

1549
01:30:56,320 --> 01:31:01,880
Speaker 1: you teach people to swim? And he had expressed right

1550
01:31:02,000 --> 01:31:04,840
Speaker 1: that that he just wanted people to get away from

1551
01:31:04,880 --> 01:31:08,840
Speaker 1: their devices and ship and go do something and just

1552
01:31:08,960 --> 01:31:15,280
Speaker 1: be outside. If that was true, I wonder if the

1553
01:31:15,439 --> 01:31:18,200
Speaker 1: if it backfired, because it's hard to tell if this

1554
01:31:18,439 --> 01:31:23,759
Speaker 1: lives more in the device internet, Like did he create

1555
01:31:24,479 --> 01:31:28,040
Speaker 1: an Internet thing or did he create a nature thing?

1556
01:31:29,320 --> 01:31:32,200
Speaker 1: If you had to look at it now, I think

1557
01:31:32,240 --> 01:31:34,639
Speaker 1: he did create a nature thing. Um. I mean tons

1558
01:31:34,720 --> 01:31:37,479
Speaker 1: of people, uh, you know, went out on searches you'd

1559
01:31:37,479 --> 01:31:38,920
Speaker 1: never I mean one of the people I interviewed was

1560
01:31:39,280 --> 01:31:42,200
Speaker 1: like a Boston cop who drove across country for three

1561
01:31:42,280 --> 01:31:44,040
Speaker 1: days with his son and spent a week camping in

1562
01:31:44,120 --> 01:31:46,160
Speaker 1: the Rockies. You know which he I mean, you've never

1563
01:31:46,240 --> 01:31:47,760
Speaker 1: been to the Rockies. So I think I think there

1564
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:48,880
Speaker 1: are a lot of people like that. I think it

1565
01:31:48,920 --> 01:31:51,679
Speaker 1: did get people, But there was definitely a very robust,

1566
01:31:52,320 --> 01:31:56,880
Speaker 1: you know, bunch of armchair treasure hunters who maybe never

1567
01:31:56,960 --> 01:32:00,519
Speaker 1: went to the Rockies, went a lot of time talking

1568
01:32:00,600 --> 01:32:06,320
Speaker 1: on in the forums. So how do people, um, how

1569
01:32:06,360 --> 01:32:08,040
Speaker 1: do people find your article? I think if you go

1570
01:32:08,120 --> 01:32:10,280
Speaker 1: to ny mag dot com. It'll be there on the

1571
01:32:10,320 --> 01:32:13,360
Speaker 1: front page and why mag dot com If you're running

1572
01:32:13,360 --> 01:32:18,040
Speaker 1: another problems ben Wallace type in Ben Wallace fan Benjamin Wallace,

1573
01:32:18,120 --> 01:32:21,200
Speaker 1: unless you want to get the don oh sorry, Benjamin Wallace.

1574
01:32:22,400 --> 01:32:26,559
Speaker 1: Type in Benjamin Wallace, something like fen something that treasure

1575
01:32:26,880 --> 01:32:30,320
Speaker 1: New York Magazine. Yeah, you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll get there,

1576
01:32:30,840 --> 01:32:34,720
Speaker 1: You'll get there. Uh, thank you for coming on. I'm

1577
01:32:34,760 --> 01:32:38,200
Speaker 1: glad I finally earned a slot on Meat Eater. Are

1578
01:32:38,280 --> 01:32:41,320
Speaker 1: you thinking about doing a book about this? You know?

1579
01:32:41,479 --> 01:32:45,040
Speaker 1: I actually I would like to, And I um emailed

1580
01:32:45,080 --> 01:32:48,600
Speaker 1: my agent about it and he said, there's already like

1581
01:32:49,400 --> 01:32:51,000
Speaker 1: book that's been in the works for a while by

1582
01:32:51,000 --> 01:32:54,840
Speaker 1: a guy who was a treasure hunter involved for years,

1583
01:32:54,960 --> 01:32:59,840
Speaker 1: and you know it's being published by major publishing. How yeah,

1584
01:33:00,320 --> 01:33:03,559
Speaker 1: you're you're a publisher random House sounds a bit. Yeah,

1585
01:33:03,720 --> 01:33:09,880
Speaker 1: I'll buy yours, like your copy better? All right? Thank you, Ben,

1586
01:33:10,040 --> 01:33:12,639
Speaker 1: thank you being here. Are you gonna write more stuff

1587
01:33:12,680 --> 01:33:15,120
Speaker 1: to come and talk to us about? I mean, it's

1588
01:33:15,120 --> 01:33:19,759
Speaker 1: hard to get Meat Eater relevant material into New York Magazine.

1589
01:33:19,760 --> 01:33:21,960
Speaker 1: I got like, I don't think New York is where

1590
01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:24,320
Speaker 1: a lot of like hunting and fishing is happening. Yeah,

1591
01:33:24,320 --> 01:33:26,280
Speaker 1: but this is now it's true. I mean, I hope

1592
01:33:26,320 --> 01:33:29,200
Speaker 1: I will. I hope I will. Yeah. This what makes

1593
01:33:29,240 --> 01:33:31,639
Speaker 1: it relevant is what wasn't in there, which is colopus

1594
01:33:31,680 --> 01:33:34,679
Speaker 1: points which were used for hunting. That's a tenuous that's

1595
01:33:34,680 --> 01:33:37,559
Speaker 1: a tenuous connection. And I had a twist Steve's arm

1596
01:33:37,840 --> 01:33:41,040
Speaker 1: to like talk about this. He's like forest Fan. Oh

1597
01:33:41,600 --> 01:33:44,599
Speaker 1: I never said such thing. I wrote about forest Fan

1598
01:33:44,640 --> 01:33:48,280
Speaker 1: when you still had your mom's milk hanging off. I

1599
01:33:48,360 --> 01:33:52,080
Speaker 1: wrote about forest Fan in two thousand eight. But you

1600
01:33:52,200 --> 01:33:55,800
Speaker 1: were very cool on the idea of like having this

1601
01:33:56,000 --> 01:33:58,040
Speaker 1: be a thing on our website and like getting Ben

1602
01:33:58,160 --> 01:34:00,439
Speaker 1: more involved and having him on the pod cast. You

1603
01:34:00,640 --> 01:34:03,800
Speaker 1: you were not very on this. You have been on

1604
01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:07,080
Speaker 1: the podcast after. I think after some text messages where

1605
01:34:07,080 --> 01:34:10,559
Speaker 1: I'm like, people are gonna want to hear this, dude,

1606
01:34:10,640 --> 01:34:13,560
Speaker 1: I just I do not. I'd have to revisit some

1607
01:34:13,640 --> 01:34:16,360
Speaker 1: of this. I could picture me being a little dismissive

1608
01:34:16,439 --> 01:34:21,080
Speaker 1: of the find. He's he's just holding a grudge because

1609
01:34:21,080 --> 01:34:24,400
Speaker 1: he proved him wrong about the squirrels. Oh no, he

1610
01:34:24,520 --> 01:34:31,200
Speaker 1: doesn't think that, because dude, I have Spencer's coming back

1611
01:34:31,280 --> 01:34:34,680
Speaker 1: on very soon, he goes, I have developed an overwhelming

1612
01:34:34,800 --> 01:34:38,800
Speaker 1: body of evidence. Okay, we'll see to contradicts Spencer's finding,

1613
01:34:39,120 --> 01:34:44,360
Speaker 1: including including a book by the author, the same author

1614
01:34:44,400 --> 01:34:49,080
Speaker 1: who wrote Light in the Forest. Put that in your

1615
01:34:49,600 --> 01:34:53,680
Speaker 1: to be continued. You got me all right, Thank you,

1616
01:34:54,200 --> 01:35:07,720
Speaker 1: Thanks Ca.