1 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: On a weeknight. Recently, people are filling the theater at 2 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: the New York Times Building waiting to see a movie 3 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: that I have been working on since last summer, all 4 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: about our changing perception and definition of gender in society. 5 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: I was pretty nervous about how it would be received 6 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: because it is a subject that is sensitive, sometimes fraught, 7 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 1: and everyone seems to have an opinion. It is my 8 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: great pleasure to welcome you to the New York premiere 9 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: of Gender Revolution, A Journey with Katie Kuric. That's when 10 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: you should We are incredibly proud of this documentary and 11 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: and honestly, Katie, you should be because not only is 12 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: it an incredible movie, but it forces you to think 13 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: about this subject in a very new and different way. 14 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: How did you get interested in putting this together? Well, 15 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: you know, I'm crazy, Brian, and I like to tackle 16 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: subjects that are big honking complicated and hard to understand. 17 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: And I don't know, I think I'm drawn to controversy 18 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: in some ways too, because this topic can be quite polarizing. 19 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: But everywhere I turned, people were talking about gender, whether 20 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,119 Speaker 1: it was Caitlin General on the cover of Vanity Fair 21 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: or the Department of Defense changing its policy about transgender 22 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: service people or a transgender speaker at the Democratic National 23 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: Convention last summer. That's right, Sarah McBride. I interviewed Sarah 24 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: after that speech, which was obviously historic. And then when 25 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: my daughter Carrie told me at Stanford, sorry to school drop, 26 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: but I am proud of my daughter that in discussion 27 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: groups you go around the room saying your name and 28 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: your pronoun, I thought, wow, things have really changed since 29 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: I went to college back in the Dark Ages, well 30 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: in the late seventies, and I wanted to understand and 31 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: get a better handle of what was going on. So 32 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: I traveled across the country and met all kinds of people, 33 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: and I didn't want to really focus on famous people. 34 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: I wanted to focus on everyday Americans who are struggling 35 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 1: with this issue, who are facing it head on, because 36 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: I thought, who better to help me understand are changing 37 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 1: understanding and perception and definition of gender than people who 38 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: were going through it themselves. Not only were some of 39 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: the folks featured in the documentary on hand in New 40 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: York City and earlier in Washington, d C. At the 41 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: premier there, but some of them are not sick of 42 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: me yet and they're nice enough to talk with us 43 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: today about the gender revolution and their roles in it. 44 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 1: Vanessa and j are board live in Washington, d C. 45 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: And they've really been on the front lines of this 46 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: gender revolution because they've been living it. Their daughter, Ellie, 47 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,239 Speaker 1: who was five years old, was born a boy, but 48 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 1: when she was four, told Vanessa and j R. That 49 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 1: she was a girl in her heart and in her brain. 50 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: They have been very outspoken, very open about helping Ellie transition. 51 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 1: And they also have a son named Ronnie. I got 52 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: to know them when I did my recent documentary. They're 53 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: great people. I feel like they've become friends, and I'm 54 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: so happy that they're here to talk about their experiences today. 55 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: Hypiness n j R. Hi, Katie Hie. So nice. Nice 56 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: to have you here. Let's start from the very beginning, 57 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: as Julian Andrew would say in the Sound of Music. Um, 58 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: you know, I know that your son Ronnie also went 59 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: through a phase where he dressed in girls clothe outhane, 60 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: but that phase, I know ended fairly quickly with Ellie. 61 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: You told me, Vanessa, you had a different child. Tell 62 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: me the difference between how Ronnie sort of experimented with 63 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 1: gender roles and the way Ellie ultimately seemed to be 64 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:23,559 Speaker 1: in the minds of experts and you and others as 65 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: a trans child. Yeah, sure, it seems more complicated, I 66 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: think than it is if you're living it. Um. With Ronnie, 67 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: we knew when he was around three that he loved 68 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 1: to play dress up with his friends and put on 69 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 1: princess clothes and wizardry clothes. And by the time he 70 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: was four, he wouldn't put on dresses anymore, and he 71 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 1: in that time just started to take on more of 72 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: the expression of a boy, which he is. Um. Ellie 73 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 1: would do the same thing around the same age, right, 74 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: j She would put on dresses, and the differences she 75 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: never wanted to take them off. Um, there are a 76 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: few differences. She never wanted to take them off. She 77 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 1: would wear them over snowsuits. I know in the documentary 78 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: there's this picture of her in a purple dress and 79 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: a hat and she just looks like this marshmallow of 80 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: a little girl. Um. And that was still six months 81 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: before before we changed the name and pronoun and and 82 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: Jay and I used to joke like, oh, we need 83 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: to leave dresses on all the time because she was 84 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: so much easier with them. On I was gonna say, Brian, 85 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: Um is less familiar with this than I am. Having 86 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 1: immersed myself in in the topic. Brian, when you hear 87 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: a story about Ellie, what comes to mind for you, 88 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: assist gender guy who's sort of been raised with a 89 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 1: very binary notion of male and female, and somebody who's 90 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: a new parent with a four month old child. Putting 91 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: myself in the shoes of Vanessa and j R. Trying 92 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: to grapple with if something like this were to happen 93 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: in our family, and actually having heard from you Vanessa 94 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: right now, my first question was, at what point did 95 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,559 Speaker 1: you take seriously the idea? And Jr. You could answer 96 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: this as well, that this was more than a phase 97 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: like what Ronnie went through, that this was actually perhaps 98 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: who she really is. I think it was when she 99 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: would where the dresses over every article of clothing that 100 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: you know we had, you know, she put them over snowsuits, 101 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: over her uniform. Um. We knew that something was different 102 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: about her, but we didn't necessarily think about trans things. 103 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: We thought maybe we had a boy who liked dressing right, 104 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 1: But we knew that something was different, and I think 105 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: we we picked up on that. We just didn't know 106 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,919 Speaker 1: exactly what we were dealing with at that point. Jr. 107 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: You know one thing I didn't ask you about. I 108 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: think when a parent has a child of a certain gender. 109 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: You know, if you have a daughter, you have a son, 110 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: you automatically, I think in your minds, I have certain 111 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 1: expectations about how that child is going to grow up, 112 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: the relationship you're going to have with that child. You 113 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: had a son, Ronnie, you had a son. You thought, 114 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: what was it like when you first had to come 115 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: to terms with this? Because you all are so together 116 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: and so supportive, but there had to be a moment 117 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: when you were like, oh my god, what is going on? 118 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: What does this mean? How do I protect my child? 119 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: How do I deal with this? What was that like 120 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: for you as a father? I guess it it took 121 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: me back. You know, when Ellie was born, we had 122 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: already identified through an annio synthesis. I believe you know 123 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,559 Speaker 1: what what we thought her gender was. Basically we didn't 124 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: know the difference between gender and sex back then, and 125 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: so yeah, we I went into it just with my 126 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: naivete you know, going into pregnancy about this is going 127 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: to be our son, um, you know, But when things 128 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: start to change, and I started to realize that, you know, 129 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: Ellie is Ellie UM early on UM not even knowing 130 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: what transgender means. That was a whole new world for me. 131 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: And I'm still trying to unpack all that now because 132 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: there's still things that I don't necessarily know about this. 133 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: But it started a whole new track for me to 134 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: really understand what this actually meant for me as a dad, 135 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: um in a traditional sense of you know, I went 136 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: into this thought I was going to be raising a son, 137 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: you know, and an actuality I'm raising a daughter. So 138 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 1: it required a lot of mind expansion and openness. I mean, 139 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 1: at any juncture did you say to Vanessa, no way, 140 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: no way, this is not going to happen. I am 141 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: not gonna support this, Katie. It was the opposite. Don't 142 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: tell anyone, And I think everyone's gonna know. Vanessa h 143 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:15,719 Speaker 1: know that that never happened. Didn't know we we it 144 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 1: happened for me, you can tell. But I think we 145 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: were we were both on the same page. I think 146 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 1: it was the difference of just trying to grasp what 147 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: was happening. Um. You know, Vanessa, for a period of time, 148 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: she she grieved and so it was more Vanessa saying no, way, no, 149 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,599 Speaker 1: how well, I think she was still open to the 150 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: opportunity that this might not be a permanent thing, because 151 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: when we first learned early on that Ellie was a girl. UM, 152 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 1: I think Vanessa and you can probably speak to this more, 153 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: but you were looking for you know, well, you know 154 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: she's still playing with boy toys or doing these boys 155 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: you know these binary Katie. I was the worst. It was, 156 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: I think Vness. I really had a very visceral reaction 157 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: to her versus myself, where I internalized a lot and 158 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: now I'm trying I'm starting to unpack all those things. 159 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: I mean, truthfully, Ellie needed to have a pronoun change. 160 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 1: She had asked Ronnie to call her sister in May. 161 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:26,319 Speaker 1: We had gotten her the clothes, but I just wanted confirmation. 162 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: And I didn't know a lot about this, and I 163 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: was scared. And I was so used to having two 164 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: little boys who were very close in age, and now 165 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 1: with almost two years behind us, I can see wow. 166 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: I didn't even think that. But in the beginning, it 167 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: wasn't easy for me. I immediately went into therapy. I 168 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: did a lot of grieving. Um, now we have more 169 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: in Ellie than we ever had with a son, because 170 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: she's so much more herself. Um. Jay actually pushed me 171 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: to change name and pronoun and said we have to 172 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: do this um for her. And even though I was 173 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: the one doing all the research, it took his push. 174 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: And how old was Ellie when you kind of became 175 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: comfortable with the idea that this was a change that 176 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: was here to stay, that it wasn't going to be 177 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: a phase. Well, when she told us on her fourth 178 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:16,559 Speaker 1: birthday that she was a girl in her heart, in 179 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: her brain, she'd been in dresses for nearly a year. Um. 180 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: And then we and and some of the pushback we 181 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: get from others is like, well, she wouldn't have been 182 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: like this. We didn't provide the dresses, and that's just 183 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: not the kind of parents we are, you know, j 184 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: went and got some of those dresses. That's just our 185 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: kids can express themselves how they want. She told us 186 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: on March seventifteen, and we she chose her name on 187 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: June twenty three, fifteen, So it's about a three month 188 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: period and we just couldn't wait any longer. She was 189 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 1: pressing us so hard and clearly unhappy with being not 190 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: who's not not being allowed to be who she says 191 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: she was. And what's your response to maybe people in 192 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,959 Speaker 1: your community, friends or family members who might have said, 193 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: you know, four years old is just too young for 194 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: a child to come to such a consequential decision. Of course, 195 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: it's something that I asked you in the documentary. I 196 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: find that that's a universal response to this, Like there 197 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: is just no way in hell that a kid has 198 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 1: the presence of mind to say this and to say 199 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:30,199 Speaker 1: it with certainty and confidence and you know, uh an 200 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: ability to really discern this. I'm not sure she really 201 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: could even discern it. She just knew it. So when 202 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: she started drawing stick figures and they were little girls 203 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: like the one, I love being who I am, what 204 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: do you say to that? I say to parents? You know, 205 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: she drew a family portrait and I said, tell me 206 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: about this, and she said, I love being who I am. 207 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: So I wrote those words down. UM. I think I 208 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: would also say that we don't question the gender of 209 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: any siss or non trans child, um, and that they 210 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: know who they are, and so we really are only 211 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: questioning that identity if it differs from what we expect. 212 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: And that being said, I say that with two years 213 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: in the bucket, now moving forward and be able to say, oh, 214 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: obviously this stuck, but that was a question I had, 215 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: and I think the best thing is to say, we 216 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: don't have all the answers yet you know your child best, 217 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: and we had a much happier child when we listen 218 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 1: to her um and the risks are too high not 219 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: to what has the response been like among her peers 220 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: at school when she's in the girl's locker room before 221 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 1: pe um And even if it hasn't been so challenging 222 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: up to this point, do you worry what it's going 223 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: to be like when she hits puberty and the differences 224 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: become more and more apparent. Well, hopefully the differences won't 225 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: become as a parent, because where there's medical things that 226 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: we can do to ensure that she doesn't go through 227 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: the wrong puberty for her identity. Her friends have been amazing. 228 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: Um they she has so many friends. She's at kindergarten today, 229 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: she fell and needed an ice pack and her friends 230 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: helped her. She's just another little kindergartener in the school. 231 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: Has made sure that she can be that little person. 232 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: I think it shows Vanessa Brian sort of naive te 233 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: because he only has a four month old but room 234 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: it's a little premature for locker rooms for five, but 235 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: he does raison. I'm trying to imagine because one day, 236 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: you know, in junior high there are going to be 237 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: communal locker rooms. And you know, I don't know if 238 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: things have changed. I think there is a move to 239 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: sort of having more privacy for kids in these settings, 240 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: but you know they're gonna there's gonna be sort of 241 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: an open gym class where the girls are getting dressed, 242 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: and you know, I worry about I worry about Ellie 243 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: in that situation, and you know you don't want her 244 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: to feel ostracized by going to a different you know, 245 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: I've at bathroom, which I know is the setting for 246 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: some kids, and and you must feel, um a little 247 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: bit of anxiety and as thinking about that all the time. 248 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: But here's the amazing thing. Um, as more and more 249 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: families share their stories, or at least not loudly, but 250 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: perhaps in our online groups, we have so many parents 251 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: and children role models going through this right now. So 252 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: we're learning what it's like to be a twelve year 253 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: old trans girl at a public school through our friends 254 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: and community We're seeing how schools are making this happen safely, 255 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: and that provides comfort to what is still an unknown 256 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: and it's really going to be how Ellie deals was 257 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: the situation and what she needs to feel safe. And 258 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: the other thing I want to point out, which I 259 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: think is so critically important and I know you all 260 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: believe so strongly in this is the suicide. The rate 261 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: of attempted or successful suicide among the general population is 262 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: four point six. For sent among trans people it's one. 263 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: And I know you've quoted Vanessa's high as fifty and 264 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: wrong but too high. And you know this this is 265 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: a matter of life and death for people who, if 266 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: they are not allowed to live authentically, uh, spiral into 267 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: deep depression and often do try or do you know, 268 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: take their own lives. So I know you were incredibly 269 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: mindful of that as you pursued this path in allowing 270 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: Ellie to be who she is. Yeah, we uh, it's 271 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: I think it's been on the top of our our 272 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: list of this is the reason why we need to 273 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: support her. I know a lot of people have said 274 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: they'd rather have an alive trans child right than a 275 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: dead child, and I know that sounds so harsh, but 276 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: it really is true. It is true. I mean what 277 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,719 Speaker 1: research has shown, and there's all kinds of studies for this, 278 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: but affirming or listening to your child when they tell 279 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: you who they are, reduces their suicide right, and it 280 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: goes back to the general population. So family support literally 281 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: saves lives of trans kids. Let me go to a 282 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: voicemail from a mom in Montana who we heard from, 283 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 1: who's really grappling with these issues. Let's listen and then 284 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: we'll talk about it. Hi, I'm learning a suit or 285 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: from Missoula, Montana. And this whole gender thing. My son 286 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: and I, like twenty one year old son, who's very 287 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 1: much a feminist young man. Uh he and I had 288 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: quite almost an argument about this whole cis gender thing 289 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: because I think it's just one more layer of labeling. 290 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: And I don't know why if you're a man or 291 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: a woman, and you know that you're a member woman, 292 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: you have to call yourself assist gender. I think it's 293 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: very confusing and um and especially for my son, who 294 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: is questioning everything right now, including I think is sexuality. 295 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: We just had an argument about it, and I got 296 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: really upset because maybe I don't understand what it's all about. 297 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: So I really appreciate your documentary. I'm really looking forward 298 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,199 Speaker 1: to watching it. Thanks Katie, I love your podcast. You 299 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 1: and Brian. Thanks bye bye. So here's Sue or thank 300 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 1: you Sue for calling in. And I think this is 301 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: fairly typical. You know, it's just this sort of ball 302 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: of confusion when it comes to understanding gender and then 303 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: helping kids kind of navigate this brave new world of gender. 304 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 1: And you hear her son is, you know, grappling. It 305 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: sounds like with his sexuality, which is very different than 306 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: gender identity, we should say I thought it was helpful 307 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: in the documentary when Sam Kellerman says sexual orientation is 308 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: who you go to bed with, gender identity as who 309 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: you go to bed as. But what advice would you 310 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: have for parents who are, you know, first of all 311 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: like me when I embarked on this journey kind of 312 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: the product of a very binary social construct and learning 313 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 1: themselves for the first time and then helping their kids 314 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 1: figure this out. Um, what would you say to Sue? Well, 315 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: I'd say to Sue, she's she's making a big step 316 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: in even making that call to you, because she's recognizing 317 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: that having this conversation about this was upsetting for her 318 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: and her son, meaning it's something that needs to be 319 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,199 Speaker 1: talked about specific to the CIS issue. I've heard that 320 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:52,360 Speaker 1: a lot. But what people often say is there's trans 321 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:57,439 Speaker 1: and then people would revert to and normal in quotes, 322 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: and trans people are normal people who have an identity 323 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: that doesn't match their anatomical sex oftentimes. And so CIS 324 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: just allows not a label on someone else the keys. 325 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: You cannot label someone else anything, um, but allows for 326 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: there to be a conversation that's not just mothering the 327 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 1: trans people. It's just another way to describe themselves. But 328 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: she's doing exactly what I would say to parents. She 329 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: reached out to you, she watched the documentary she's having 330 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 1: she's going to watch it. Oh, right, she's going to 331 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: watch the documentary. Right. She's she's finding resources to learn 332 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: even if she doesn't understand it. And that's exactly where 333 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: we started. And it's exactly where almost every parent starts. 334 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: And sometimes it's the older children are that are the 335 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: ones to bring it to the parents. But um, I 336 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: would just say, be open to learn, ask questions, read um, 337 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: and then ask more questions. Yeah, if I could add 338 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: I don't know if and the caller UM mentioned if 339 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: she was denying him the space or the room to 340 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: kind of explore that, you know, his sexuality or his 341 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: general identity. But I think that would be the other 342 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 1: thing was is to allow for your child UM to 343 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 1: have that space, to given permission to to explore who 344 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: they are, given the room and support and resources, not 345 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 1: to kind of start that next time. And it's funny, 346 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: I think that that's sort of the default defensive position 347 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: for people who don't feel comfortable with this, is to say, Hey, 348 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: why do I have to exactly be sis gender? This 349 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 1: is not my deal, This is not my problem. I'm 350 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 1: not different. And I think you know, it's almost just 351 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: a sign of respect to people who are by saying, Okay, 352 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 1: well this is this is how I identify, but I 353 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: appreciate and understand it's not how everyone else does. I 354 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 1: you know, I think you know. I loved getting to 355 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 1: know you and your family, Finesse and j R. I 356 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: really admire how you have been so open about this 357 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 1: and in many ways are paving the way for other families. 358 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 1: I think you're doing a real public service by being 359 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 1: the sounding board and by your willingness to talk to 360 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: others who are going through this, and I just I 361 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 1: just wish you and your family and Ellie all the 362 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 1: best because one of the my favorite moments in the 363 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: documentary is when Jr. Said in a little bit, you know, 364 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 1: with his voice cracking, you just want to love and 365 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: protect your children and do what's best for them. And 366 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: clearly that's what you're doing. And I'm so grateful for 367 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 1: your participation, not only in the documentary Gender Revolution, but 368 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: for you talking about it with us today. So thank 369 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: you both, so very much. Thank you. Thanks Katie. The 370 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: document is wonderful, and uh, you're the perfect person to 371 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 1: allow us all in because I'm sufficiently moronic, Is that 372 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: what you're suggesting that? And I think you give yourself 373 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: a little bit of a hard time thinking that you're 374 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: still making mistakes. But we all are making mistakes. I mean, 375 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: there's a lot of mistakes we're making, parenting Listening to 376 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: Ellie was not one of them. We're going to take 377 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: a quick break to hear some messages from our sponsors, 378 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 1: and we'll be right back with more conversations about the 379 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: Gender Revolution. Dr Joshua Safer is an Into chronologist who 380 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 1: runs the Center for transgender medicine and surgery at Boston 381 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: Medical Center. Josh was a very important person in my 382 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: documentary because he helped unpack the science and the biological 383 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: underpenny that may be contributing to gender identity. And it's 384 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: a relatively new field of science and he is definitely 385 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 1: on the forefront. So he chastised me for calling him 386 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: doctor Safer. I don't know why. I just feel like 387 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: it's a sign of respect. So Josh, E baby, is 388 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 1: that better? That's you know, my my nieces and nephews anyway, 389 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: So nice to have you here in the studio, and 390 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: let's start talking about the science of gender what makes 391 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 1: us identify the way we do well. The key point 392 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: is that there is something biological, uh, and that's the 393 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: that's the big surprise. And then in terms of the details, 394 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: those are really not known to any degree. But if 395 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: you're trying to conceptualize or put a model together in 396 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: terms of how this might look, it might be that 397 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: there are genes that encode various things, various structures in 398 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: your body, and then also things in your brain that 399 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: confer gender identity. So that seems to, by extension, indicate 400 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: that this isn't a choice, right, This is something that 401 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: seems to be predetermined biologically that makes somebody feel their 402 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: anatomy doesn't necessarily correlate with who they feel themselves to be. Well, 403 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: that's exactly the point. It's that if it is biological, 404 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 1: then it is what it is. And the only thing 405 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: that probably is also true is there is going to 406 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,239 Speaker 1: be some degree of complexity. I don't know if this 407 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: is something with multiple genes or if there are other 408 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: genes for other other aspects of your identity that onto 409 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: which this is superimposed, that that influenced this, But the 410 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 1: bottom line, yes, is that it's biology and therefore at 411 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: some level it is what it is. But it's not 412 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: necessarily just genetic, right, Josh, I mean there are also 413 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,959 Speaker 1: other factors at work. For example, in the documentary, we 414 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: talk about a shot of testosterone that may come in 415 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: utero in the second or third trimester that could affect 416 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 1: the way the brain is wired. Absolutely, it is the 417 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: case that hormones and other things that happen in utero 418 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 1: affect things based on your predisposition, based on your genes. 419 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 1: So if you have certain genes, then if you have 420 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 1: exposure to more testosterone, that's going to have certain impact. 421 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: And some things are general, that is, any anybody will 422 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: have the same response, and some people will and some 423 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 1: things are more specific. We should mention Brian that Josh 424 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: also helps generally eighteen and older trans people with the 425 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: protocol in terms of hormone treatment. Correct. Yeah, so I'm 426 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: an adult und chronologist. Means that people who come see 427 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 1: me are over the over the age of eighteen by 428 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 1: definition for the hospital, But you probably work with a 429 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: lot of inter chronologists who see younger patients. Right. Absolutely, 430 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 1: I direct our transgender centers, and our transgender center covers 431 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: the whole shebang from childhood through through the entire lifespan. 432 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 1: And we absolutely have a pediatrician who is our expert 433 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: adolescent person because that's really the age where kids need 434 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,879 Speaker 1: an intervention. And how difficult is it to reach the 435 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: judgment that a kid who wants to transition should start 436 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: the medical intervention, should start the hormone therapy. What are 437 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: the protocols to make sure that this isn't just a phase, 438 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 1: Because that's a huge responsibility, isn't it, Josh. It's very 439 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,959 Speaker 1: intimidating making these diagnoses. I guess I'll start. Adults are 440 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 1: relatively straightforward people. By adulthood. By the time I see people, 441 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: their ability to articulate gender identity is pretty reliable. I'm 442 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: not questioning it much. I have no patients who have 443 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: say they're not transgender, after all, who have come to 444 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: me and said they were transgender in the first place, 445 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: So that's a zero out of two hundred and fifties 446 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: so far. And among younger people, I know you only 447 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: see adults, but among the juvenile transgender people who are 448 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: seen by your sinner, what is the rate of regret 449 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 1: or not necessarily regret, but wanting to make a U 450 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: turn and and and stay cis gendered. Among the kids 451 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 1: who have said they are transgender in adolescence were still 452 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: at zero also, and that's with a sample's of about 453 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: forty or so. I think it's also important to point out, 454 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,919 Speaker 1: because I think there's so many misconceptions about this whole topic, 455 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:25,959 Speaker 1: is that when a child is four or five, they 456 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: may socially transition. In other words, a parent may give 457 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:34,120 Speaker 1: them permission to express their gender as they see fit, 458 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: they may change their name, they may have them identify 459 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: consistently as a different gender. But it's not I think 460 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: some people are under the misconception that oh, they're getting surgery, 461 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: they're having you know, they're taking drugs, they're doing all 462 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: kinds of things that are truly altering them. And so if, 463 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: in the rare circumstance that a child then has a 464 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: different gender identity a few years down the road, it's 465 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: not as if that can't be reversed, right, That's I 466 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: think that's an enormous point, is especially for parents who 467 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: are nervous about this, that so long as we don't 468 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: intervene medically, then nothing happened. You know kids, you know, 469 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: kids go to school addressed, however, and so allowing kids 470 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: to explore, and um it should be, which a lot 471 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: of kids do, right, should be, should really cause nobody 472 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: any stress. I think the fear is that if you 473 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: let kids explore, you will somehow end exactly, And but 474 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: that doesn't make any sense, because if we could encourage 475 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: gender identity to change, then we would have succeeded with 476 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: all those intersex individuals. What you think that because you 477 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: let your male body child go to school with address, 478 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, now he is going to be transgender, right, 479 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: and we're going to be talking to intersex activist Georgie 480 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: and Davis about that later, and Josh, I think the 481 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: message that you're sending, which is a very interesting one, 482 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: is by the time the transitioning kid gets to the 483 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: point at which he or she needs to do the 484 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: medical interventions start taking hormones or puberty blockers, there's essentially 485 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: a zero percent return rate for those people. They know 486 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: what they want, they're very clear about it, and in 487 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: your experience, they just move forward. I'm very confident with 488 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: older kids and with adults exactly as you say the um. 489 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: The caution there is to still be a little conservative 490 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: in confirming that it is really what they're articulating. So 491 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: I'm not I don't want to be passing out hormones 492 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: willy nilly. I My approach, as much as it sounds, 493 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: it sounds a little strange, or will sound a little 494 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: strange to many people are still pretty conservative. We have 495 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: a voicemail from a listener who is a transgender man 496 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: who made this transition decades ago. Hi Brian, Hi, Katie. 497 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: I'm a fifty five year old trans guy here in 498 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: New York City. I transition to New Orleans back in 499 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies. My parents were smart enough to bring 500 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: me the Two Way Medical Center when I was about thirteen, 501 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: and I was able to transition. Uh, pretty early in 502 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: terms of awareness of TRANSI issues in the United States 503 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: or anywhere in the world for that time. All right, 504 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: thanks again for the great show. I keep the good 505 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: work up. By the way, So, Josh, this caller transitioned 506 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies, quite early in the scheme of 507 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: trans medicine, as I understand it, and that you know. 508 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: The caller raises a question that I'm asked all the time. 509 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,479 Speaker 1: Why didn't we hear about this when we were younger? 510 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: Why did I not know any transgender people? Now it 511 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: seems that you hear a lot about trans kids in 512 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: elementary schools and junior highs across the country. But why 513 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 1: weren't we aware of it earlier? The big reasons are, 514 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: we didn't have any vocabulary. We believed it was what 515 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: we believe. The people who did come forward were suffering 516 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: from a mental disorder, and people who might have thought 517 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: that they were trans might have either not known how 518 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: to express it and just simply try to uhmate it 519 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: right exactly. It's not unusual for me to see middle 520 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: aged people come to my practice for starters, and they've 521 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: been repressing this for decades. Let's talk about the percentage 522 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 1: of the population, because many people I've talked to have said, 523 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: this is an extraordinarily small percentage of the population. Do 524 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: we really know how many transgender people are out there? 525 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: We do not have marvelous data. On the other hand, 526 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: a attempts to survey various populations and ask, uh, now 527 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: that we have more of a vocabulary, come up with 528 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: numbers in the vicinity of a half a percent saying 529 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: that they are transgender. So one and two hundred people 530 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: and that's kind of the now are you kidding? So 531 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: very large? And that's crazy because I've always read it's 532 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: like point o o o one for son of the population. 533 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: I didn't realize that. No, it's it's uh, it really large. 534 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: And in fact, that's an important point when we're talking 535 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: about in the medical establishment where I live, do physicians 536 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: need this as part of the curriculum, And the answer 537 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: is yes they do. If you are intending to have 538 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: more than two patients who you will be seeing at 539 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: any given time, which would be a very small part 540 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: time practice, then the chance that one of your patients 541 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: is transgender and you need to know what to do 542 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: with it. At least related to whatever specialty you're in 543 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: is going to be enormous. It's gonna be very important. 544 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: How do you think ultimately we're going to change hearts 545 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: and minds when it comes to being more accepting and 546 00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: able to integrate all kinds of different gen or variant 547 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: people into society without marginalizing them, ostracizing them, and diminishing 548 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: their potential. So, to me, the way to change hearts 549 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 1: and minds there at least two strategies. One of them 550 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 1: is believing that there is real science, that this is 551 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: just what how people are, and the second is meeting 552 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,959 Speaker 1: people and having it be personal proximity. Yes, as Dr 553 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,800 Speaker 1: Oz told me recently, it's hard to hate up close. Brian, 554 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,280 Speaker 1: did you feel that way? I made Brian watch the documentary, 555 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: and um, you know he was interested. I didn't force him. 556 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: But but what were your impressions as somebody who I 557 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: think is a very caring, compassionate person, open minded, What 558 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: did you learn from the documentary because you're sort of 559 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,800 Speaker 1: a good case study for me. Well, seriously, it's exactly 560 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: what Josh just said. When you hear the story and 561 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: see the people when you listen to people like the 562 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 1: Fords talk about grappling with these difficult decisions, you become 563 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: a lot more sensitive too, and and aware of the 564 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: fact that this this isn't a choice, This is something 565 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: that is inherent to who these people are, and and 566 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: the best medical evidence is starting to bear that out 567 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: absolutely and getting to the year not having been exposed. 568 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 1: That's an age thing. So my kids, by contrast, are exposed. 569 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: We had a child, a transgender girl like like the 570 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: Ford's daughter, really articulate, come out as trans and grade 571 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,800 Speaker 1: school and my kids grade school very different experience because 572 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: my kids aren't growing up never having known anybody trends. 573 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,240 Speaker 1: They know, they know that particular child. Well, Josh Safer, 574 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: thank you so much. You've been so generous with your 575 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:06,839 Speaker 1: time and your uh knowledge on this subject as we've 576 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 1: been exploring this gender revolution. Thank you very much for 577 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,279 Speaker 1: coming in today well as as obvious, it is my 578 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: pleasure and I really appreciate the opportunity to move the 579 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 1: subject forward. Georgie Anne Davis is Assistant Professor of sociology 580 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas and also the 581 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:32,760 Speaker 1: current president of Interact Advocates for intersex youth. Georgie Anne, 582 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,399 Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. 583 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: One of the things that we tackled in this documentary 584 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:44,880 Speaker 1: was the plight of intersex individuals such as yourself, Georgie Anne. 585 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: And since you're the expert, can you explain what intersex 586 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 1: is for a lay person? Sure? So, Intersex babies are 587 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,280 Speaker 1: born with sex characteristics that are not typically male or female. 588 00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: For example, I was born with complete androgen incense activity syndrome. 589 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 1: It's just one intersect trait of many that exists. But 590 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: what that means is I was born with a vagina um, 591 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:13,879 Speaker 1: a happy, healthy baby girl, but inside, instead of having ovaries, 592 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,839 Speaker 1: a uterus and fallopian tubes, I had tests. And that 593 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: was not known by my parents um or or my 594 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,320 Speaker 1: providers or any of that until I was about a teenager. 595 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,840 Speaker 1: And at that point I was I remember this so vividly. 596 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: I was running around outside with my friends and my brother, 597 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 1: and I was experiencing dominal pain. And my mother thought, 598 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: and given I was a teenager, that I was getting 599 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,120 Speaker 1: my period and that wasn't what was happening. So once 600 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: that was clear that there was something else going on, 601 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 1: she brought me into an urgent care center, and it 602 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 1: was there that they ran all these different tests to 603 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 1: try to figure out what was happening. What they discovered 604 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 1: was that that pain that I was that I was 605 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: experiencing wasn't at all anything to worry about. Really, it 606 00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 1: was just pain from being out of shape and running around. UM. 607 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: But in the process of discovering that nothing was wrong 608 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: with me, that's when they discovered that I was intersex, 609 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: meaning I had testis and not ovaries, and that I 610 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 1: have X Y chromosomes and not xx chromosomes. And when 611 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 1: that was discovered, they didn't tell me that as a 612 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 1: as a thirteen year old. They my parents, didn't tell me, 613 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,880 Speaker 1: my doctors didn't tell me. They instead made up different diagnoses, 614 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 1: and at one point even told me that I had cancer. 615 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: And the logic is that they feared that if I 616 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,800 Speaker 1: knew the truth about my body, that it would interfere 617 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,439 Speaker 1: with the development of my gender identity. I think it's 618 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 1: hard for people to to sort of visualize do you 619 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: have a womb Georgian No, so I was born without 620 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 1: a uterus, and UM, I don't have I don't have 621 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,839 Speaker 1: a uterus, I don't have fallopian tubes. UM. I don't 622 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 1: have a cervix, right, So I was born phenotypically, which 623 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: means on the outside I look female. That's why my 624 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: parents did not know that I was intersex. And in 625 00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 1: order my I know myself, you know that I had 626 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: any unique or different about me? Um, we didn't know 627 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,879 Speaker 1: any of that. Georgie. And how did this whole experience 628 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,279 Speaker 1: affect your sense of self and your gender identity? How 629 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: do you identify now? And does that question kind of 630 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 1: bug you in and of itself? It doesn't bug me. Actually, 631 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 1: I appreciate that question. I think it's okay to ask. Um. 632 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 1: I would say, Katie, you know identifies intersexy now? No, 633 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 1: I identify as a woman. I lived my life as 634 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 1: a woman. That's who I am. I I like to 635 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: think that I also Um in terms of my you 636 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 1: know experiences, I I really flirt with gender queer identities 637 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,399 Speaker 1: and and queer sexuality and all of that. Georgie, Anne, 638 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,959 Speaker 1: how common is it to be intersex? Well, we don't 639 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,799 Speaker 1: really have any really good reliable estimates of intersect and 640 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: the population. In part is I just sort of shared. 641 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:57,279 Speaker 1: Doctors lie to patients about their bodies and in their diagnosis. 642 00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: So some people themselves, didn't don't even know their intersect. 643 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: I didn't, for one, find out until as an adult, 644 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: I obtained my own medical records and discovered that I 645 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:08,840 Speaker 1: was intersex. I had to read through the redacted text 646 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:13,320 Speaker 1: and I was horrified, just really really felt ashamed. I 647 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 1: felt like a freak. Um. So that's one reason why 648 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,399 Speaker 1: we don't have reliable estimates, because intersex people aren't often 649 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 1: told the truth about their bodies. Having said that, Georgian 650 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 1: isn't a commonly cited statistic that one in every fifteen 651 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 1: hundred to two thousand births um is intersex. That's what 652 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,359 Speaker 1: some people site, Yes, and I've seen some estimates one 653 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 1: in one and fifty. The one thing that I do 654 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: know for sure is that intersex people exist all around 655 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 1: the world, and intersex people are as common as you 656 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,440 Speaker 1: might some people say as a redhead, which would put 657 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:48,799 Speaker 1: it on the lower end of those estimates. But even 658 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: if we went with the more conservative one in two 659 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,840 Speaker 1: thousand or one in one fifty, whatever it is, I'm 660 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,759 Speaker 1: certain that everyone on this planet has met somebody else 661 00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,320 Speaker 1: who's been intersex. Now, whether or not that person was 662 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 1: comfortable out intersex, or whether that person themselves and they were. 663 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,400 Speaker 1: In fact, intersex is a different story. Let's talk about 664 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:09,239 Speaker 1: how intersex babies are treated, because activists like yourself and 665 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:15,320 Speaker 1: organizations like Interact have been increasingly vocal in recent years 666 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 1: about what is standard operating procedure in many hospitals when 667 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,400 Speaker 1: it comes to an intersex baby. When a baby is 668 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 1: born with an ambiguous genitalia georgian um, oftentimes doctors and 669 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 1: parents kind of get together and they decide that that 670 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:35,640 Speaker 1: baby should be operated on. Can you explain, Yeah, so 671 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 1: I don't think the decision is really as mutual as 672 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,920 Speaker 1: it sounds. That's how I think providers typically, and these 673 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,400 Speaker 1: are well meaning providers most cases. I think you know, 674 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 1: they're raised in the same society that views sex as 675 00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: very binary, right, male and female. But what typically happens 676 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 1: is when a child is born and the intersex trait 677 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,279 Speaker 1: is discovered, whether it's at birth or like when I 678 00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 1: was older, um teenage, in my teenage years, whenever that happens, 679 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 1: doctors often frame intersex is a medical emergency, and because 680 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 1: it's presented as a medical emergency, what happens is they 681 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 1: established the need for a medical response. In a medical 682 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 1: emergency response, and that sort of puts into motion all 683 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:16,600 Speaker 1: these different procedures that, as you know, I show in 684 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:18,600 Speaker 1: my work and both I know from just connecting with 685 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 1: parents of intersex youth that they later regret these procedures. 686 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 1: What is the surgery that's usually done Georgian It depends 687 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,719 Speaker 1: on what intersex trade is there. But if someone has 688 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:31,880 Speaker 1: external and you know, so called and quote ambiguous and 689 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 1: quote like genitalia, then they may do things like basically 690 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 1: female genital mutilation by cutting the clitoral phallic structure making 691 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:45,600 Speaker 1: it smaller um. Because you know, it's it's not acceptable 692 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 1: supposedly for a woman to have a larger than normal 693 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: whatever normal is clutters um, so they reduce it, so 694 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,080 Speaker 1: they in you know, the last place I think everyone 695 00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,399 Speaker 1: can agree that you want to lose sensation in our 696 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,160 Speaker 1: in your body is on your genitals, and that that's 697 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,719 Speaker 1: these procedures cause a lot of nerve damage. But then 698 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,360 Speaker 1: they also do surgeries on the inside, so they remove 699 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,280 Speaker 1: things like tests, as they did in my case, because 700 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,160 Speaker 1: a girl is not supposed to have balls. I asked 701 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 1: you in the documentary, what about the trauma of looking 702 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:23,160 Speaker 1: different or not fitting into a binary for a child. 703 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:25,879 Speaker 1: You told me that was a good question. I don't 704 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: know if you still think that that's a good question, Georgian, 705 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,200 Speaker 1: but I know that's what the medical establishment that still 706 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,480 Speaker 1: performs these surgeries, they come up with this as an 707 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,360 Speaker 1: explanation for doing so well. Katie. I think all questions 708 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,799 Speaker 1: are good questions, so I think it definitely is a 709 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,880 Speaker 1: good question. I'm glad you asked that. I I think 710 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,319 Speaker 1: it's really important to know that. You know, uh, we 711 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:53,560 Speaker 1: only share our genitals and very intimate settings, right. We 712 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:57,040 Speaker 1: don't walk around exposing ourselves. So even if one has 713 00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:01,759 Speaker 1: external you know UM in quotes a biguous genitalia, then 714 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:03,520 Speaker 1: no one is going to know that. I mean, think 715 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:07,680 Speaker 1: about my life. I lived thirteen years without anyone my parents, 716 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,040 Speaker 1: who changed my diapers right, who gave me baths, They 717 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,319 Speaker 1: didn't know that I had testies internally. They didn't know 718 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:19,160 Speaker 1: that I had UM a vagina that led nowhere vaginal canal. 719 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 1: They didn't know that UM. And what we're seeing now 720 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,720 Speaker 1: today with intersex youth is that they're living happy, healthy 721 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: lives there. They don't need surgeries to UM fit into 722 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:35,240 Speaker 1: societal norms. And to be very clear, I'm not against 723 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:40,239 Speaker 1: surgical interventions. UM providing that the person who's having them 724 00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,520 Speaker 1: performed on their body is consenting to those procedures. And 725 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,920 Speaker 1: the World Health Organization and the United Nations have both 726 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 1: come out against surgery on intersex babies. Correct. Correct, I'm 727 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 1: not alone in saying this, nor intersex activists. We have 728 00:44:55,160 --> 00:45:01,279 Speaker 1: support from major organizations around the world. Before we go, Georgianna, 729 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:06,839 Speaker 1: I wanted to include the story of intersex people in 730 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,960 Speaker 1: this documentary on gender as really a way to talk 731 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,840 Speaker 1: about where gender comes from. Where do you think gender 732 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:18,239 Speaker 1: comes from? How do we how do we kind of 733 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,279 Speaker 1: get established who we are and how we identify. I 734 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,160 Speaker 1: think gender is constantly changing and shifting. Gender is really 735 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 1: a structure. I think what's really interesting about the distinction 736 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,920 Speaker 1: between sex and genders that sex and gender are not 737 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 1: the same, and these things are each in their own 738 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,160 Speaker 1: are fluid and flexible phenomenon, but they're certainly not correlated. 739 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:44,880 Speaker 1: So the attempt to correlate them can be really, really dangerous. Well, 740 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,680 Speaker 1: you know, I think it's wonderful that we're able to 741 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:52,879 Speaker 1: have open, direct conversations about this. I so appreciated your 742 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:56,000 Speaker 1: participation in this documentary. You know, I don't know if 743 00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,960 Speaker 1: you all can tell but Georgiana is a riot. She 744 00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:04,040 Speaker 1: is so funny, she is so accessible and one thing, 745 00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:09,680 Speaker 1: she never made me feel stupid or insensitive for asking 746 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:15,200 Speaker 1: questions and being what I hope was respectfully curious about 747 00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,480 Speaker 1: the topic. Georgie and Davis, so great to talk to you. 748 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:22,000 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for being with us today. Thank you 749 00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:26,440 Speaker 1: so much for really giving visibility two topics that are 750 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:31,040 Speaker 1: often um invisible in society. Brian, was this everything you 751 00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:35,040 Speaker 1: wanted to know about gender? What was afraid to ask? Almost? 752 00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:37,520 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm just scratching the surface. But this 753 00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,440 Speaker 1: has opened my eyes and opened my mind to so 754 00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,279 Speaker 1: many issues and questions. And I really appreciate Georgie and 755 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 1: you're coming on and sharing your story. No problem, Briani. 756 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,520 Speaker 1: Just remember that intersex is just sort of an extreme 757 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,640 Speaker 1: on the spectrum of sex. Penises don't all look the same, 758 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:55,960 Speaker 1: vaginas don't all look the same. And as I tell 759 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:57,879 Speaker 1: my students every day, if you don't know that, then 760 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,239 Speaker 1: I give you some homework. Go have fun in an 761 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:04,400 Speaker 1: experiment with genitals on that happy Now, I'm afraid, Georgie 762 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:06,799 Speaker 1: and Brian is going to take your advice. S Dart, 763 00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:10,040 Speaker 1: So I think I'm going to hang up now. Yeah, 764 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,080 Speaker 1: that's a good idea for homework that I've gotten in 765 00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:16,040 Speaker 1: the past. That's interesting. Thanks Georgianne, Bye bye, thank you. 766 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:23,680 Speaker 1: If you want to see The Gender Revolution, which I 767 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:28,480 Speaker 1: highly recommend, you can access it on demand through Hulu, iTunes, 768 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:32,800 Speaker 1: Amazon or Google Play. I assure you it's a really moving, 769 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:37,000 Speaker 1: eye opening, illuminating look at how this issue is playing 770 00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,680 Speaker 1: out all over the country and really well worth your time. 771 00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:43,480 Speaker 1: What's also exciting, Briant. It will be distributed in schools 772 00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:48,160 Speaker 1: across the country if they're interested, along with a study guide, 773 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,759 Speaker 1: and I think it's an incredible commitment by National Geographic. 774 00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,600 Speaker 1: Their whole January issue was on gender. It's a pretty 775 00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,480 Speaker 1: gutsy move for an iconic brand to wait into these 776 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:04,120 Speaker 1: waters and to go there. I think they've gotten some backlash, 777 00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:07,680 Speaker 1: as have I, but I think it's wonderful that they're 778 00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:11,280 Speaker 1: providing this as a teaching tool and not only for kids, 779 00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:16,880 Speaker 1: but a lot of grown ups like me. Thanks as 780 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,680 Speaker 1: always to Gianna Palmer for producing the show, and Jared 781 00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,480 Speaker 1: O'Connell in New York and Ryan Conner in l A 782 00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:28,040 Speaker 1: for engineering and mixing it. Thanks also to Alison Bresnik 783 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,920 Speaker 1: for her social media wizardry, and to Emily Bena for 784 00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:36,000 Speaker 1: her part in producing this show and Mark Phillips are 785 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:39,040 Speaker 1: you listening? Mark, thank you as always for our wonderful 786 00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:41,920 Speaker 1: theme music. I love it. Katie Kuric, Mitch Simil and 787 00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,160 Speaker 1: I are the show's executive producers. And remember you can 788 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:49,800 Speaker 1: also email us at comments at kirk podcast dot com. 789 00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,200 Speaker 1: We always read those, and you can find us on 790 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:57,200 Speaker 1: social media too. I'm at goldsmith Be on Twitter, and Katie, 791 00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,000 Speaker 1: You're on a few of the social media platforms. I'm 792 00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:04,240 Speaker 1: at hot Babe on Twitter. I'm kidding. I've at Katie 793 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:09,160 Speaker 1: Couric on Twitter and Instagram and Katie dot Keric on Snapchat. 794 00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:11,200 Speaker 1: Best of all, you can rate and review us on 795 00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:16,000 Speaker 1: iTunes everyone, so don't forget to subscribe to talk to 796 00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:19,440 Speaker 1: you next time. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll 797 00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:20,040 Speaker 1: see you later.