WEBVTT - CLASSIC: The Ticketmaster Racket 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:05.760 Welcome, conspiracy realist. We are talking about something that has 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.800 become a bit of a hobby horse for us at 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:14.200 this point. Not too long ago, Nol and Matt Ny 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:17.840 were going to get tickets to go see a concert 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:23.000 together and we ran into the fees. Oh god, the fees. 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:23.920 The fees. 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:26.720 Yeah, this isn't an aldly bit of goody. 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:30.200 That is painfully relevant still to this day. 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:33.960 I mean it's we're approaching an absolute monopoly with Live 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:35.040 Nation and Ticketmasters. 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:37.120 They are kind of like the people selling the tickets 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:40.360 being the same people that on the venues. It's not great. 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:43.680 Let's jump right in and see how much more expensive 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:46.080 it's gotten since even May twenty nineteen. 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:52.519 From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:56.920 riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 0:00:57.000 --> 0:00:58.960 learn the stuff they don't want you to know. 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:03.640 Production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works. 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:13.720 Greetings, Welcome back to the show. 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:16.360 My name is Matt and our pal Noel is on 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:20.080 some adventures, but we'll return in the future. They called 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:22.199 me Ben. We are joined as always with our super 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:26.200 producer Paul Mission Control decad. Most importantly, you are you. 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:29.600 You are here that makes this stuff. They don't want 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:32.120 you to know. Welcome to the show. You did not 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:34.000 have to buy tickets. 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:36.720 That's right. You did have to buy a phone or 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:40.120 a computer or something that has a microphone and a 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:45.160 processor and at least headphone outputs or some kind of speaker. 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:50.680 Let's call those associated fees. Yeah, so the show is free. 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:57.040 It takes some doing to get it in you. 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:58.120 To get it in your ear, right, Yeah. All the 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:02.880 other paraphernalia is not include. I mean, sure, this is 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:06.640 a show. This is a recorded show, right, we do 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:08.760 a call in line. We've taken the show on the 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:11.639 road and probably will do again and then near to 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:17.920 mid future. But nothing, nothing quite beats the experience right off. 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:21.600 You're in your favorite music or your favorite performance whatever 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.560 it is live right, Like, what are some of the 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:25.920 memorable concerts you've been to? 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:31.959 Man, I haven't really been to many, but Dave Matthews 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:38.320 back in the day, oh boy, and some of that 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:42.160 DMB baby, Oh it was the best. And you know 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:46.440 what tickets were always like, Okay, they were not insane 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:52.560 back in the early two thousands doing some old DMB though, 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:54.600 you know, you get to you know, that's a fairly 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:59.679 large act right. Then you get to newer shows nowadays, 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:02.320 and you're going to a much smaller venue with a 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:05.720 much smaller band, And I'm paying more now to see 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:07.880 those bands than I did to pay a big ticket 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:10.440 band when I was, you know, coming out of high 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:11.240 school in college. 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:14.600 So like you would go see Dave Matthews band in 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:20.560 a stadium or something, yeah, something that large, and you 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:24.520 would get maybe some reasonable tickets on the lawn or whatever. 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:28.280 Thirty bucks okay, max thirty bucks with everything. 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:31.600 Yeah, just to get into Lakewood Amphitheater, which not called 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:35.119 that anymore, but who cares. And also, you know, inflation. 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:40.200 Obviously everyone is saying inflation, matt but inflation, but that's 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:40.920 not all. 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:45.840 Let's call it feflation. Okay, maybe okay, asides from sounding 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:49.200 very doctor Susian, that that is a word that could 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:52.840 work for today's episode, because you know what bothers me 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:56.120 about buying tickets probably the same thing that bothers everyone 0:03:56.280 --> 0:04:00.760 they buy tickets nowadays. When you buy its ticket for something, 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:05.480 you're overwhelmingly going to do it online or else. You're 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:07.120 going to show up at a show the day of, 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:08.080 you know. 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:11.240 And it's probably sold out if it's worth anything. 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:17.240 Perhaps, Yeah, yeah, And it's really it's relatively rare for 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:21.039 someone to be walking down the street see tickets for 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:25.320 a show like next week or that weekend, and then 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:27.400 say I'm going to walk in and buy those now 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:30.839 in person. People don't do that near as often, so 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:33.520 most of the time we buy tickets online. And here 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:37.960 in the United States, there's been one game in town 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:41.000 for quite a while, and this game continues in other 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:46.200 countries as well. A master, if you will, of tickets. Oh, 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:52.680 some sort of ticket master. Yes, Wowly, it took a 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:54.680 while to get to that one, but it's true. Right, 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:58.160 since about the late nineteen seventies, it's become increasingly difficult 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:05.039 to get tickets to live events Broadway plays, Symphonies, the DMB. 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:10.320 It's difficult to get these tickets without running somehow into 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:13.520 ticket Master, even if you don't know that you're running 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:17.640 into Ticketmaster. So what exactly is this thing? It's been 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:21.800 here for the three of us, for you, mission control 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:24.440 of myself, for our entire lives. 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:28.160 Yeah, and beyond and before. Yeah. So let's go back 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:32.840 to Phoenix, Arizona, nineteen seventy six. A couple of gentlemen 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:36.760 we got Albert Leffler, Peter Godwa, and another man, a 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:40.680 businessman named Gordon Gunn. What a great name. Yeah, seriously, 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:44.799 Gordon Gunn. So Leffler. He comes up with this name, 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:49.719 this idea for a thing, and he calls it ticket Master, 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:52.200 And it's this new company that's just going to control 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:55.400 tickets and for these guys when they founded in nineteen 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:59.040 seventy six, really all they're trying to do in the 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:03.240 beginning is sells tickets to an Electric Light Orchestra concert 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.680 at the University of New Mexico. That's the first big thing. 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:09.760 And electric Light Orchestra is something that my dad told 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:13.520 me about, actually that he really enjoyed. Look it up, 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:16.240 Google it. If you don't know it, Spotify it. I'm 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:16.960 sure you can find it. 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:18.920 Mister Blue Sky is a great song. 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:24.120 It really is. It really is. But anyway, so this 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:26.279 one little thing in Albuquerque, New Mexico. 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.679 I'm so sorry to interrupt that to say, yeah, Turned 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:33.000 to Stone is also a great song. Oh, in my mind, 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:36.000 it's one that I've had stuck in my head. Awesome 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:41.760 a Blue Sky Turned to Stone. It's the seventies, it's Albuquerque. 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:45.320 Out of college. Awesome, good times rolling right, let the 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:50.960 good times roll. And so then they figure out, hey, 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:53.440 this is working. We're just you know, control a hub. 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:56.960 We're controlling the tickets to one thing. We're good at this, 0:06:57.520 --> 0:06:59.800 Let's keep doing it. So they keep doing it for 0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:02.080 a few years. Then by nineteen seventy eight they have 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:07.240 their first international clients coming in from Norway, Oslo, Norway, 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:10.560 and that same year they signed their first major venue, 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:13.800 this place called the Louisiana super Dome, along with their 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:18.000 first Major League team, the New Orleans Jazz, which is 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:20.000 now the Utah Jazz, but in the city of New 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:22.560 Orleans it was the Jazz. So they actually have the 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:27.680 NBA as one of their major clients, one team on 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:30.920 the NBA. But still, that's huge for just a couple 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:33.360 of guys starting with a startup, right. 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:36.320 Yeah, And it happens so quickly. It's just a few years. 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:42.000 When Leffler and Godwa originally thought of the company, they 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:47.400 were going to be licensing software for tickets, really, and 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:53.160 they've gone from that to being the ticket provider for stadiums, 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:57.720 which sounds kind of like maybe a boring business, right, 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:04.880 it's not, as you know, endlessly fascinating as being a 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:10.480 professional skydiver or maybe a podcast or something like that, 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:15.640 you know, an underwater tattoo artist. But still, what we 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:18.280 have to realize is they get a cut of every 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:21.400 ticket sold, and when you get to something as large 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:25.240 as a superdome, that's a lot of money in like 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:30.080 in one night, yeap. Other people knew about the game. 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:33.040 There were other things that existed at this time before 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:38.240 ticket Master. There was a business called ticket Tron, like 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:40.439 ticket and then the movie Tron. 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:44.400 And that's nineteen sixties. So it's difficult to It's hard 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:48.440 for me to imagine computerized ticket sales being organized enough 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:51.880 with software, with computers that are powerful enough to like 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:55.000 do it in any large scale. But it was happening. 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:59.120 Yeah, yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't necessarily happening on the 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:01.320 customer end, but you would make a phone call to 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:03.400 ticket Tron and they would have this database. 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:07.600 Right, So can I selly fun fact about ticket Tron? Yeah? 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:13.040 They were purchased by a thing called the Lovecraft Investment 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:14.679 Group in nineteen ninety. 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:20.640 What's the Lovecraft Investment Group? 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:24.080 Man? All I know is is Lovecraft. There's a Lovecraft involved, 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:24.720 That's all I know. 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:28.199 Oh boy, let's see it's true. 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:29.520 The Hewlett Packard Lovecraft. 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:35.240 I don't know what the I don't know what the 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:40.520 Lovecraft investment. This may be fodder for another podcast. Here's 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:42.480 the thing. As you said, there were other there were 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:49.440 other similar creatures around in this market, right, other places 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:53.400 that wanted to be the ticket provider, in the middleman 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:58.400 for that. But like a hungry invading species, Ticketmaster consumed 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:02.880 and digested the these competitors. In nineteen eighty one, it 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:06.520 opened its first overseas operation. In nineteen eighty two, they 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:10.560 got a new CEO, a guy named Fred Rosen. Rosen 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:13.960 told the La Times back in eighty five that his 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:17.400 competitors were asleep at the switch. He said, he was 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:21.760 an aggressive businessman. I'm proud of it, got this American 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:24.880 psycho vibe going on, right. He was so good at 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:29.280 dominating the ticket industry that it became the only game 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:33.320 in town. And other people, other artists, primarily not just 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:38.280 wound up consumers. Other artists started to take issue with it. 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:42.960 Pearl Jam launched a campaign in nineteen ninety four that 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:46.480 they called a strong language for some people ticket bastard, 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:50.120 because you see, pearl Jam was hearing from their fans 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:53.760 that they literally couldn't afford tickets to a show, or 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:58.600 that they were getting saddled with these egregious hidden fees, 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:01.599 and so they said, well, look man, we want to 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:05.320 make a living, but we want our fans to see 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:09.199 our music. We don't want to milk them for every 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:11.960 penny they're worth, Like what are we kiss? You know 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:13.480 what I mean. They don't want to do that. They 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:15.520 want to be human, they want to stay human. So 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:19.080 they wanted to offer summer tour tickets to fans for 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:23.480 under twenty bucks. And they asked ticket Master, you know, hey, guys, 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:28.360 can you just not charge another twenty bucks and fees? 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:30.880 Can you actually like keep the fees around two dollars 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:34.040 or whatever that your cost of doing businesses? And they 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:40.000 said no, no, you're Pearl. 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:47.480 Jam and we are ticket Master. Yeah. So yeah, but 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:49.920 it's crazy to think about because they really did say no, 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:53.120 and Pearl Jam just in nineteen ninety four decided, well 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:54.960 it's not worth it. We're not even going to go 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:58.920 on tour. We're canceling everything. We're not gonna like go 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:01.720 and play a bunch of empty stadiums where nobody can 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:06.079 show up for these exorbitant prices. They ended up going 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:10.160 to Congress and guess what, Pearl Jam one and everything 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:12.959 was okay and everyone was happy, and ticket sales went 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:14.920 down to twenty dollars for the rest of our lives. 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:16.880 Thanks so much for tuning in, folks, We hope you 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:17.880 enjoyed this episode. 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:21.880 Oh wait, nope, nope, that's not what happened. What happened 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:22.920 Ticketmaster won. 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:27.800 Right, And there's one more sordid detail for this story. 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:33.600 The band. The members of the band Pearl Jam maintained 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:36.160 and say to this day. You can ask them today 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:39.760 and they'll confirm this. That private investigators were sent to 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:43.959 snoop around in their lives, sent by Ticketmaster and having 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:50.479 a PI sicked on you by a company very common occurrence. Unfortunately, 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:56.880 what they were probably trying to do. What the allegation 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:02.880 implies is that Ticketmaster was attempted to find something discrediting 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:07.760 to members of Pearl Jam, not something that had anything 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:11.440 to do with their crusade to get better ticket prices. 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:14.160 They wanted to be able to say, well, this person 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:17.920 is doing heroin and we'll put it in the news 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:21.720 if you guys don't straighten up intil the corporate line, 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:24.840 but you know again, that's a terrible example, because this 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:30.440 is the nineties in Seattle grunge, right, So doing Heroin 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:34.320 may unfortunately not have been the huge scandal that they 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:38.319 would want, but they wanted something to hold over their heads, 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:45.120 and eventually, probably more so, through just the sheer, ungodly 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:49.520 amount of money Ticketmaster has, they were able to. They 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:52.480 were able to, as you say, prevail. So that brings 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:55.439 us to the modern day. Nineteen ninety seven, a company 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:59.280 called Interactive Corp, oddly enough, not a video game company, 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:02.600 perch is the majority stake and Ticketmaster, and then it 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:05.400 bought the rest of the company. In nineteen ninety eight, 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:10.240 the name changed to Ticketmaster Online. Dash City search doesn't 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:15.760 exactly roll off the tongue, right, No, So they didn't 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:20.200 care that it didn't roll off the tongue. The company expanded, diversified, 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:24.200 it kept evolving its business model, increasingly, going from phones 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:28.760 to online sales, and this constant evolution, the way of 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:33.320 many businesses right unfortunately, did not go in the direction 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:37.600 that critics wanted it to. They didn't see cheaper tickets, 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:42.240 they didn't feel like things were more transparent. These moves 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:46.080 did not quell all of the critics. And today Ticketmaster 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:51.040 controls an estimated eighty percent of the little more than 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:57.440 eighty percent of the ticketing market in North America. So 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:00.440 they're doing something right. But let's get back to the critics. 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:02.600 What are these critics saying. 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:04.760 Well, they're saying that we need to take a quick 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:07.520 break to hear from our sponsor and then we'll find 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:11.280 out what Ticketmaster may or may not have been getting into. 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:19.200 Here's where it gets crazy. 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:23.680 So it turns out that in addition to be massively successful, 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:27.840 Ticketmaster has been accused of numerous abuses, breaches of law, 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:32.520 and shady business practices. There's genuine stuff they don't want 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:36.800 you to know here. It's probably not gonna stop, no 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:41.840 compellingnimpotus to stop it. And yes, Ticketmaster has been sued 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:43.000 for conspiracy. 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:47.480 Oh snap, the big c All right, let's take another 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:53.920 time traveling trip here to two thousand and nine. Bruce Springsteen. 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:57.680 Oh everybody knows Old Bruce the boss. Yeah, he is 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:00.600 the boss. He's your boss and my boss. He publicly 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:03.240 calls out ticket Master in two thousand and nine for 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:08.720 a little let's say misdirection, redirection if you will, from 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:13.840 a website. So as fans were going and trying to 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:18.000 buy tickets through Ticketmaster to the Springsteen concert. They were 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:21.840 getting sent to this other place called ticket now dot com, 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:26.080 completely separate site. It looks very different. There's no you know, 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:28.960 when you're on that site, you don't understand what's happening. 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:31.000 You feel like a pop up maybe has occurred, or 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:34.640 you've gotten redirected through an ad maybe. 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:37.000 Or this is your last chance to get some kind 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:39.160 of ticket to see the Boss live. 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:43.040 Well, yeah, there's a certain desperation that's happening when you 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:47.160 are being redirected to this ticketnow dot com because guess what, 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:51.240 the tickets are marked up by hundreds, sometimes thousands of 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:56.400 dollars at ticket now versus Ticketmaster. So then all these 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:59.720 fan complaints are coming through because of this weird steering 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:04.680 to the place called tickets Now. A New Jersey congressman 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:08.960 gets a call and basically this guy says, Hey, we 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:11.840 need a federal anti trust investigation into whatever the heck 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:15.919 is going on between Ticketmaster and ticket now. What is this? 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:17.560 Let's figure this out. 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:23.320 Yeah, so here's what they find. They find that ticket Now, 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:26.760 in addition to having a very similar name to Ticketmaster, 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:33.880 is owned by Ticketmaster, and when Bruce Springsteen's fans were 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:37.000 going to a website to buy tickets to his show, 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:41.560 they were automatically redirected to ticket now, which, as he said, 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:45.080 Matt sells tickets for much higher than their face value, 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:48.919 and it prais on that desperation, right, that's psychological fear 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.119 that someone else will get the thing I want. So, 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:55.720 you know, I may not necessarily think this is a 0:17:55.720 --> 0:18:00.159 good financial decision, but I will be gosh darned and 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:03.639 gollie ged if I allow somebody else to get that ticket. 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:04.359 You know what I mean. 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:09.280 It's an artificial scarcity essentially. Bruce Springsteen found out about it, 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:16.600 and he was righteously indignant. He wrote a public statement 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:20.640 about this, because what you found out was that this 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:26.359 sort of second chance or reselling site ticket now was 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:30.080 something that Ticketmaster was sending the audience to when there 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:34.119 were still regular tickets available. So they could have gotten 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:38.560 that you know, thirty or forty whatever dollar ticket to 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.119 sit on the lawn in the back, yeah, and have 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.679 a great time. But instead they were going directly to 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:46.240 this place where it was you know, this huge markup, 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:53.840 and that markup goes to Ticketmaster man. So Ticketmaster gets 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:58.560 a fifteen percent cut from tickets Now, which it owns. 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:04.520 That's in addition to the fees that already gets as Ticketmaster, 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:08.520 so that that money has already spent and baked into 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:13.920 the price. So a lawsuit comes about, and essentially what 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:21.160 they're doing is making money off the same ticket two times. Clever, 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:26.679 you know, brilliant, very clever, evil, lawful evil, and so 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:31.439 probably because Egenstein himself took such a strong stance against it, 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:35.879 Ticketmaster issued an apology to the fans and said, we 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:38.879 will refund you the price difference between the face value 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:41.480 of the tickets and those you got from ticket Now, 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:43.200 which is a lot of you know, it's a lot 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:47.359 of scratch. But that's also that's also like being caught stealing, 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:51.800 you know, being caught stealing a car and then saying, ah, 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:55.520 I'm you know, I'm gonna drive it back to your house. Yeah, 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:57.679 and then what like, I feel bad, you. 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:02.239 Know, some gas money here just a little bit. 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:09.199 No, they didn't, they didn't, but it's strange, right, And 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:12.160 this is just one of the allegations against ticket Master. 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:16.240 We've got that Pearl Jam example. But let's talk about 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:18.680 those fees, because that's where a lot of this comes 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:21.080 back in, right, Have you ever bought a twenty dollars 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:24.840 ticket only to find that it becomes more than forty 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:27.480 dollars by the time you get to the actual place 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:27.960 your order? 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:32.800 No? Never, oh never, This is never Tabernacle. 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:37.320 That's a that's a local venue here at Atlanta Tabernacle. 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:38.760 What kind of fees have you run. 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:42.160 Into literally twice as much? I mean it, Yeah, I've 0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:45.720 seen I have seen tickets double when I buy them 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:48.880 for just a local venue here because of ticket Master's 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:51.560 weird fees to get me my ticket somehow that I 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:52.960 can print out already. 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:55.399 Yeah, there's like a two to five dollars fee for 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:57.960 getting a PDF. Essentially you can. 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:01.720 Print somebody I'm paying some salary who's just on a 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:05.560 floor somewhere making calls like I need three Pearl Jam 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:07.440 but like, no, no, I got four radio Head. 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:07.600 No. 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:11.840 It's like it has to be that to justify twenty 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:15.960 or thirty dollars fees on top of everything else. Otherwise 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:17.040 I do not understand. 0:21:17.240 --> 0:21:21.480 Yeah, you're absolutely right. There's a there's a service charge, 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:25.359 and that will be ticket Masters charging you for the 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:28.520 privilege of it giving you a ticket. Yeah, and then 0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:31.560 there's the facility charge, which is a charge added by 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:35.080 the venue. So ticket Master takes its cut, and then 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:38.400 the Tabernacle, for example, takes its cut. And then there 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:44.280 are shipping, convenience and processing charges. So that's a charge 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:47.439 for you know, using your visa American Express, that's a 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:51.040 charge for having the tickets delivered to you via post 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:54.560 wow or using your own printer. 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:58.359 Yeah, but then who who pays Cardi B? Then is 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:00.840 what I'm trying to figure out, Like who what's her cut? 0:22:01.280 --> 0:22:04.240 Everybody else has taken their cut. Who's where's Cardib's money? 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:07.080 Unless you're a huge name artist, which I guess Cardi 0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:12.160 B is. Now, the amount of money you get per 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:17.160 ticket can be surprisingly alarmingly small because the label will 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:19.080 take some money, you know what I mean, your road 0:22:19.119 --> 0:22:21.960 crew will take some money, and all this other stuff. 0:22:22.200 --> 0:22:25.560 Craft services eat that cheese because it's coming out of 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:30.520 your cut. Other profits. Right, But all this adds up 0:22:30.520 --> 0:22:36.040 to an unpleasant experience for people when we're buying these tickets. 0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:39.479 The problem is there's not really any transparency with this. 0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:46.120 Fees between events vary even at the same venue, and 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:50.120 preferences of the artist as well. Some people will try 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:56.040 to buck like Radiohead or Pearl Jam. And the problem 0:22:56.080 --> 0:22:59.000 with it is that none of this, none of this 0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:03.080 ultimately goes into a situation where in ticket prices are lower. 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:07.440 None of this is meant to nor will it. 0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:09.440 Ever create It cannot. 0:23:09.680 --> 0:23:12.119 Yes, yes, none of this is meant to create a 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:15.480 situation where artists get paid more and the audience pays less. 0:23:15.760 --> 0:23:16.800 No, absolutely not. 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:20.359 If anything, It's kind of like, you know, nobody talks 0:23:20.400 --> 0:23:24.720 about this, but it's pretty weird that you you know, 0:23:24.920 --> 0:23:27.440 historically can't buy a car directly from the people who 0:23:27.480 --> 0:23:28.040 make cars. 0:23:28.480 --> 0:23:29.199 That is weird. 0:23:29.680 --> 0:23:34.000 It's weird. It's a weird thing. It's normalized. Yeah, and 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:38.480 you know, I'm not choosing sides on it, but that 0:23:38.480 --> 0:23:40.160 that is something we think about. You know, you can 0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:44.320 buy almost you can buy so many other things directly 0:23:44.359 --> 0:23:47.200 from the people who make them direct sales. 0:23:47.480 --> 0:23:50.280 Vertical integration is scary though, and it can be It 0:23:50.320 --> 0:23:53.720 can be highly it can be highly problematic. 0:23:54.160 --> 0:23:58.760 Yeah, and it can also be dangerous for the bottom line. Right. So, 0:23:59.840 --> 0:24:04.560 the allegation here is that Ticketmaster is sort of a 0:24:04.640 --> 0:24:09.480 rent seeker and it's now a middle It's maybe it 0:24:09.840 --> 0:24:13.840 needed to be in the process before everybody had a 0:24:13.840 --> 0:24:17.439 brilliant computer on their phone. But now maybe it doesn't 0:24:17.480 --> 0:24:20.520 have to be right. Maybe that kind of software is 0:24:21.280 --> 0:24:24.960 easier to handle. We don't really know. We just know 0:24:25.080 --> 0:24:27.760 that they are the largest game in town, and we 0:24:27.880 --> 0:24:35.680 know that the entire operation is exceedingly opaque. We're going 0:24:35.720 --> 0:24:38.760 to take a break for a brief word from our sponsor, 0:24:39.000 --> 0:24:43.000 and then we'll come back with an investigation in Canada 0:24:43.640 --> 0:24:46.160 that makes this even weirder. 0:24:52.520 --> 0:24:58.160 All right, here's where it gets crazier. This is hard 0:24:58.160 --> 0:25:01.919 for me to understand that this is real. Okay, what 0:25:01.960 --> 0:25:05.320 we're going to talk about from now, mostly through the 0:25:05.320 --> 0:25:09.280 rest of this episode, we got from a CBC News 0:25:10.200 --> 0:25:14.680 investigation that was carried out and specifically there's a journalist 0:25:14.720 --> 0:25:20.480 named Dave Seglins who actually physically went undercover as a 0:25:20.520 --> 0:25:25.320 scalper at a ticket industry convention out there in Las Vegas. 0:25:25.880 --> 0:25:29.159