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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Some of my fondest

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Speaker 1: memories from childhood were getting to meet the older members

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Speaker 1: of churches that I had attended. Young people always bored me.

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Speaker 1: I found that the older people to be quite interesting

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Speaker 1: and they had a lot of stories. Now, every church varies,

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Speaker 1: but most churches are rather generous. Many people you can

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Speaker 1: find in these churches will give you the shirt off

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Speaker 1: their back if you're kind of down and out, and

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Speaker 1: particularly if they perceive that you're doing good. I want

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Speaker 1: to talk to you about a case today where it

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Speaker 1: is the ultimate story involving a wolf in sheep's clothing,

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Speaker 1: a wolf that descends upon a tiny little Methodist church

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Speaker 1: in a tiny little town in Oklahoma and brings hell

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Speaker 1: with him. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks, Dave.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how you feel about it, but I

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Speaker 1: think that one of the characteristics of having a decent church.

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Speaker 1: No church is perfect, but having a decent church I

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Speaker 1: think goes to generosity. People can pontificate all they want

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Speaker 1: to and read scriptures and doing all that stuff, But

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Speaker 1: if people can be generous to other people, I think,

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Speaker 1: and kind and loving and not necessarily expecting anything in return.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a sign of maybe hell in certain ways.

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Speaker 1: What do you think about that?

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Speaker 2: Love thy neighbor as you love yourself. That pretty much

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Speaker 2: tells you everything. That's a directive. When the Lord tells

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Speaker 2: you something, you better do it. And when he says

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Speaker 2: love your neighbor, you love your neighbor. And neighbor is

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Speaker 2: a place for people that you don't know well, people

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Speaker 2: you've just met. Being nice, being kind, thinking of the

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Speaker 2: other person. First. I agree that is the health of

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Speaker 2: a church. It's amazing to me in this day and

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Speaker 2: age where we have so many opportunities to share the

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Speaker 2: gospel worldwide using the Internet, and it's just an amazing

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Speaker 2: thing now. But Joe, ultimately, the church is not a building.

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Speaker 2: It's the people and how the people interact with one

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Speaker 2: another and new friends. And that's how a church actually

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Speaker 2: is judged, is how they behave in their community with people.

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Speaker 2: And that's why this story it centers around extending that

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Speaker 2: right handed fellowship to somebody you just met. In this

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Speaker 2: particular case, they met the devil on a bicycle.

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Speaker 1: I think it's one of those things that you never

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Speaker 1: know how evil is going to show up. And that's

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Speaker 1: what really struck me. One of the things that really

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Speaker 1: struck me about this case, and it sounds cheesy, but

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Speaker 1: it's like the devil road into town on a bicycle

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Speaker 1: is what this comes down to. He shows up. And

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Speaker 1: the thing about it is, when somebody's on a bicycle,

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Speaker 1: you envisioned some kind of you know, the Devil's going

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Speaker 1: to roll into town and he's going to be in

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Speaker 1: like some evil looking mac truck or large truck with

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Speaker 1: big tires on it, you know, and horns on the hood.

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Speaker 1: This guy, because he's not the devil, he's a man

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Speaker 1: that was very evil, shows up on a bicycle, and

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Speaker 1: it almost when you're looking from an investigative perspective and

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Speaker 1: you're looking through the eyes, you know, you're trying to

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Speaker 1: look at the eyes of the people that are impacted

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Speaker 1: by what this guy did. I don't know that there's

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Speaker 1: any more passive mode of transportation other than going out

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Speaker 1: for a stroll.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps it's the first mode of transportation we actually have.

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Speaker 2: And that's it's so funny. For most people, I include

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Speaker 2: myself in this one. Our bike is one of the

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Speaker 2: most important possessions we have as an early teenager, right

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Speaker 2: before you can get your freedom in a car, you know,

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Speaker 2: you get that first real freedom with a bike. Where

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Speaker 2: yous tell mom and dad, I'll be back in a

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Speaker 2: couple hours. I'm going to go here or there, back

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Speaker 2: in the day anyway. In this particular case, imagine it's

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Speaker 2: a Saturday afternoon, beautiful day, and he shows up peddling along,

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Speaker 2: and there's this church in the small town of Depew, Oklahoma,

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Speaker 2: and it's a late day in September. A man riding

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Speaker 2: a bicycle shows up and starts chatting with the guy

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Speaker 2: mowing the yard. He tells him the man I'm talking about,

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Speaker 2: Scott Isermer tells the man mowing the yard. Hey, I'm

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Speaker 2: bicycling across country to raise money for victims of nine

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Speaker 2: to eleven, which not that much of an uncommon thing.

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Speaker 2: Back in September two thousand and two, one year after

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Speaker 2: nine to eleven, a lot of people were raising money

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Speaker 2: for different funds related to the nine to eleven event.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't raise the red flag over that if somebody

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Speaker 2: told me they were doing it.

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Speaker 1: No, and listen, I'm not saying that evil doesn't happen

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Speaker 1: in small towns. This town roughly has a population somewhere

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Speaker 1: in between about four hundred and five hundred people. Everybody

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Speaker 1: knows one another here, all right.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, the first person mister Isimer finds is

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Speaker 2: retired school teacher John Wright. Again, it's a Saturday, and

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Speaker 2: mister Wright's mowing the lawn at the Methodist church, getting

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Speaker 2: ready for services the next morning. Now, the community has described,

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Speaker 2: as you said, very small town. But you know where

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Speaker 2: everybody leaves the front door on lock, leaves keys in

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Speaker 2: the ignition. Just one of those pleasant places to live.

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Speaker 2: And Ismer was able, Scott Eismer was able to take

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Speaker 2: advantage of that. He tells mister Wright, Hey, I'm doing

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Speaker 2: this to Ray's money, you know, for nine to eleven,

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Speaker 2: which you mind if I pitched a tent on the

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Speaker 2: backyard here at the church overnight? And mister Wright says,

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Speaker 2: I'll go you on better, son, Why don't you come

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Speaker 2: on in and stay in the fellowship all night, sleeping

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Speaker 2: there in the air conditioning. It'll feel good. And that's

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Speaker 2: where they met. They being Scott Eimer and the entire

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Speaker 2: community of Depew, Oklahoma, met on a fall day in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and two. Now, mister Wright had a daughter

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Speaker 2: and her name was Kathy Biggs. Mister Scott Isimer became

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Speaker 2: romantically involved with Missus Biggs, and that romantic relationship led

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Speaker 2: for Missus Biggs to file for divorce and she and

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Speaker 2: Isenmer moved to Tulsa, Oklahoma and lived in an apartment there.

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Speaker 2: Now this is fairly quickly. Scott Eismer, obviously he's a player,

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Speaker 2: and he gets Catherine. They moved to Tulsa set up shop.

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Speaker 2: Less than a year, the romance faded and Catherine Biggs

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Speaker 2: moved back home to Depew, Oklahoma. And by the way,

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Speaker 2: when she got home, she filed for protective order against

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Speaker 2: Scott Isimer. So now we're a year past that encounter

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Speaker 2: on the bicycle at the church, that first man that

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Speaker 2: he met, mister Wright. He marries his daughter. A year

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Speaker 2: goes by, and now miss Wright has a protective order

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Speaker 2: against Isomer. Mister Ismer now shows up in Tulsa, and

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Speaker 2: or he spends time in the Tulsa County Jail for

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Speaker 2: violation of the protective order. So this is not a

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Speaker 2: man that has control of all of his emotional faculties.

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Speaker 2: Is that a good way to phrase that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that it is. It's excellent anytime you

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Speaker 1: have an event that winds up in a homicide, and

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Speaker 1: in this case, a multiple homicide, you have to look

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Speaker 1: back into the history of a subject to see because

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Speaker 1: most of the time, and this is one of the

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Speaker 1: things that really frustrates the public, me included, when you

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Speaker 1: take the long view of it, you see it tracking forward,

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Speaker 1: you can see that this is not going to end

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Speaker 1: well because you've got preceding behaviors that come along with this,

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Speaker 1: violent behaviors that indicate that if this person is not

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Speaker 1: interdicted in some way, it's going to wind up in

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Speaker 1: a real tragedy, and certainly it did in this particular case.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, this little town of lesson

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Speaker 1: five hundred people will be scarred forever endeavor. I don't

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Speaker 1: know why. I'm still amazed after all these years that

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Speaker 1: you see a circumstance where an individual is spinning out

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Speaker 1: of control and then all of a sudden it winds

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Speaker 1: up in a complete and total train wreck for everybody

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Speaker 1: that is involved around them. And it's interesting, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: It's like, in the news media and whatnot, the perpetrator

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Speaker 1: so many times Dave becomes the focus of the case

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Speaker 1: and you really begin to forget about the victims. In

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Speaker 1: a case, they become I guess, eccentric and the porpetrator

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Speaker 1: is concentric to the story. And that's a real shame.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that to a great degree after

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Speaker 1: these number of years, has happened in this particular case.

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Speaker 2: I agree with you. It does take you down a

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Speaker 2: path that you don't want to go. I want to

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Speaker 2: remember the people, the victims. But in this particular case,

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Speaker 2: we have one man, Scott Isimer, and several victims. So

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Speaker 2: let's start with Isimer. Quick review. Arrived on town on

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Speaker 2: a bicycle, meets a man at the Methodist church who

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Speaker 2: introduces him to his daughter. A romantic relationship blooms. The

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Speaker 2: pedals fall off the flower within a year, and Catherine

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Speaker 2: Smith now finds herself back in the town of Depew,

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Speaker 2: and she has a protection order against Scott Isimer. Isimer

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Speaker 2: wants to see her again, and so he makes a plan.

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Speaker 2: His plan is to stay across the street from her

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Speaker 2: house and surveill it and basically lie and wait. That's

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Speaker 2: a legal term, believe it or not, Lie and wait.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly what Scott Eismer was doing. He waited until

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Speaker 2: aj Cantrell and his wife Patsy left home. He sneaks

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Speaker 2: into their home and watches right across the street. His

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Speaker 2: ex girlfriend Catherine, her sixteen year old son, and by

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Speaker 2: the way, her sixty three year old mother all live

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Speaker 2: in this house. While Scott Eismer is watching the home,

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Speaker 2: the Cantrell's come back home earlier than he thought. He

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Speaker 2: thought he had more time, but they arrived back home.

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Speaker 2: This is where evil takes place and Scott Eismer takes

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Speaker 2: a four to ten shotgun he finds inside the Cantrell's

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Speaker 2: home and as they walk in the house, he shoots

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Speaker 2: and kills Patsy Cantrell with the shotgun and then uses

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Speaker 2: the shotgun to beat A. J. Cantrell to death. Joe,

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Speaker 2: they're seventy in their seventies.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, mister Crantreill was seventy six.

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Speaker 2: Day And I kind of imagined this that while Eismer

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Speaker 2: was able to get one shot off on missus Cantrell

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Speaker 2: on Patsy, that mister Cantrell was on the attack right

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Speaker 2: away and went right after. That's what I'm assuming here,

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Speaker 2: because Eisenber was not able to get a shot off

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Speaker 2: on mister Cantrell, but he beat him to death. With

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Speaker 2: a shotgun. So backing up, Joe, what kind of injuries

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Speaker 2: are we looking at from a four to ten shotgun?

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Speaker 1: Well, first off, four ten it's not uncommon, but it's

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Speaker 1: not when you think of shotguns, which are traditionally when

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Speaker 1: we think of the word caliber or the size, it's

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Speaker 1: the diameter of the bore. Shotguns are actually measured not

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Speaker 1: in caliber but in gauges. And so the lower the

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Speaker 1: number of the gauge, like you have traditionally like a

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Speaker 1: twenty gauge, it'll skip traditionally to sixteen gauge, and then

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Speaker 1: you have twelve gauge, which is very common, that's what

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Speaker 1: the police carry, is what the military carries, and then

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Speaker 1: you drop down to ten gauge. Actually, a ten gauge

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Speaker 1: is something in the past that's been a s I said,

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Speaker 1: with an elephant gun because it'll fire, it can fire

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Speaker 1: these very robust slugs, very lethal weapon. But then you

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Speaker 1: have this outlier as far as a shotgun, and it's

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Speaker 1: measured in zero point four to one zero, which is odd,

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Speaker 1: and it's not a gauge. It's actually a caliber and

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Speaker 1: it's the equivalent of a forty one caliber bullet. You've

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Speaker 1: heard dirty Harry for instance, forty four magnum most powerful

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Speaker 1: handgun in the world, will blow your head clean off.

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Speaker 1: But they have measured the bore of the four to

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Speaker 1: ten shotgun as point four to one, and it can

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Speaker 1: take slugs. It'll fire slugs, and it'll also fire shot

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Speaker 1: as well, like bird shot in this particular case, which

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Speaker 1: are tiny. If people have never seen bird shot, it

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Speaker 1: looks just like BB's now. The bbs that are contained

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Speaker 1: within each one of these rounds can come in a

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Speaker 1: variety of sizes, but suffice it to say there are

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Speaker 1: a large number of bebes contained in each shell. And

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Speaker 1: most of the time four to ten shotgun is utilized.

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Speaker 1: Some people will refer to it as a varmint weapon.

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Speaker 1: You can go, you can actually hunt rabbit with it.

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Speaker 1: People use it. Young young kids are given four to

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Speaker 1: ten shotguns because they don't have a lot of recoil

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Speaker 1: to them. They'll use them to hunt squirrel with small game.

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Speaker 1: People around farms use them to kill rats with for instance,

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Speaker 1: or snakes. Matter of fact, there's a famous weapon that's

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Speaker 1: referred to as a snake charmer. That's a single shot

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Speaker 1: four to ten shotgun, but it operates just like a

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Speaker 1: regular shotgun, and it's a smooth bore weapon. So when

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Speaker 1: this thing is fired, and in this case, when miss

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Speaker 1: Kentrell was actually shot, it launched a single volley of

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Speaker 1: bebi's into her. And the way we like in her

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Speaker 1: case in forensics, one of the ways that we would

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Speaker 1: get an idea as to how far away this weapon

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Speaker 1: was from her when it was discharged is that you

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Speaker 1: would measure the circumference or the distribution of the bebes

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Speaker 1: on the wound pattern as they entered the body. Most

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Speaker 1: of the time we think about dispersal of gunshot residue,

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Speaker 1: and you know, lots of times you'll get soot on wounds.

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Speaker 1: We talk about that, and the broader the expanse of

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Speaker 1: the soot, if you're talking about like a pistol shot,

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Speaker 1: gives you an approximation of distance. But with bird shot

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Speaker 1: like this, you get these all these little satellite wounds

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Speaker 1: that are just slightly bigger than say the head of

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Speaker 1: a pen, that penetrate the body. What's so devastating about

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Speaker 1: it is that you get multiple of these ripping through

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Speaker 1: the body. The wider the expanse, the further the distance

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Speaker 1: is the muzzle target distances when the thing is discharged,

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Speaker 1: and so each one of these little bebes tracks through

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Speaker 1: the body on its own individual little trajecttory as it

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Speaker 1: or wound track rather as it passes through the body,

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Speaker 1: and it can Let's say, if you're four feet away

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Speaker 1: from somebody and you aim center mass with this thing,

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Speaker 1: it'll initially come out as like a cylinder in the

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Speaker 1: air and travel and as it gets further and further

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Speaker 1: away from the end of the muzzle, that cylinder begins

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Speaker 1: to open up. And so now instead of having a

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Speaker 1: point four to one cylinder size that's going down range,

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Speaker 1: suddenly it has in caliber it's expanded out to maybe

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Speaker 1: point six to oh so you're talking about zero point

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Speaker 1: six oh inches, or it can expand out too point

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Speaker 1: seventy And so as in the further and further away,

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Speaker 1: the broader this expanse gets, you can have one of

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Speaker 1: these rounds that'll track and it'll clip, say the liver

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Speaker 1: and maybe the spleen, the pancreas, the bowel, and these

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Speaker 1: things are a nightmare for surgeons to have to work

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Speaker 1: on if the person served and they make it to

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Speaker 1: the hospital, because it's not like you just have a

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Speaker 1: single bullet hole that's entered the body and tracked through.

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Speaker 1: They have to find each one of these little tracks

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Speaker 1: that are passing through the body. It's easily displayed on

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Speaker 1: the external on the exterior of the body, you can

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Speaker 1: appreciate it it comes. It'll actually distribute powder on the

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Speaker 1: body as well, so you can get a pretty accurate

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Speaker 1: reading for how far away with this weapon. This shoulder

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Speaker 1: fire and arm, because that's that's what it is. You

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Speaker 1: fired from the shoulder. It's a long arm. You can

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Speaker 1: turn this thing around. And I find that it's very

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Speaker 1: interesting you made this assessment day when mister Cantrell had

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Speaker 1: this awareness that his brecious bride, who he's probably spent

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Speaker 1: a good deal of his life with, has been shot.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine he springs into action. This weapon that's

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Speaker 1: a long arm can be used as a bludgeon, and

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Speaker 1: that is in fact what occurred with this. He was

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Speaker 1: beaten about his head. He had five distinct lacerations to

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Speaker 1: his head and those arise from blunt force trauma. There's

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Speaker 1: going to be very jagged injuries.

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Speaker 2: One thing to review very quickly in case you missed

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Speaker 2: episode the other day where we actually talked about lacerations.

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Speaker 2: Up until the other day, I thought laceration was a

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Speaker 2: slicing wound. That is not what happened. Being bludgeoned is

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Speaker 2: to be beaten, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It is, And it's when you begin to beat somebody

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Speaker 1: down with this thing. Every time you strike, let's say

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Speaker 1: you're being the victim or the target is being struck

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Speaker 1: with the butt of the weapon that is transferring energy.

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Speaker 1: The first strike, he may have been standing up, but

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Speaker 1: after you struck with the force of this thing, he's

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Speaker 1: going down to his knees and then you're in a

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Speaker 1: dominant position over him and Dave. According to the medical examiner,

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Speaker 1: this perpetrator beat seventy six year old mister Cantrell in

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Speaker 1: the head to the point where his skull fracture. It

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Speaker 1: is somewhat of a great feet fracture. A skull, the

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Speaker 1: skull is very resilient. We think that skull fractures happen

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Speaker 1: all the time. Well, our skull is very resilient, and

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Speaker 1: so in order to introduce this kind of force into

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Speaker 1: the environment, and he's probably striking the same location over

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Speaker 1: and over, and so the structural is becoming weaker and

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Speaker 1: weaker until it finally fractures.

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Speaker 2: There are also different types of skull fractures. Correct, there's

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Speaker 2: the linear, which is just a crack in the skull

306
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Speaker 2: where the the bones are even but a crack, and

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Speaker 2: then there's depressed right.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, So we actually refer to the skull itself,

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Speaker 1: the surface of the skull as what's referred to as

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Speaker 1: the external table of the skull, and it's layered and

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Speaker 1: it's a fascinating structure. You know, if you look at

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Speaker 1: the bone of the skull on cross section, it's got

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Speaker 1: a matrix that lies beneath the surface and it's I

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Speaker 1: don't know that any engineer could create something that is

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Speaker 1: as resilient as bone like this. In this particular case,

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Speaker 1: the skull itself, it's created to absorb shocks. So you

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Speaker 1: have the external table of skull, you have this kind

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Speaker 1: of matrix that's in between it. It looks almost like

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Speaker 1: a honeycomb. And then you have the internal surface of

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Speaker 1: the skull that's smooth because it's adjacent to the brain,

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Speaker 1: and so you have to make your way through that.

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Speaker 1: And with a depressed skull fracture like you were mentioning,

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Speaker 1: literally part of that external table gives way. So it's

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Speaker 1: not just like it's fractured. It is the fact that

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Speaker 1: now if it's depressed, and depressed means to be sunken

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Speaker 1: in you're driving the bone into the brain, and that

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Speaker 1: bone will fragment many times and send little splinters into

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Speaker 1: the brain. And in this case, aj Cantrell died on

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Speaker 1: that floor immediately adjacent to his wife Patsy, after she

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Speaker 1: been shot with the same weapon. I make a big

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Speaker 1: deal out of learning from the dead, and I even

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Speaker 1: use the term we allow the dead to speak in

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Speaker 1: this particular case. What I'm meaning is that the injuries

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Speaker 1: that you have on a body will give you an

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Speaker 1: idea as to the dynamics of an event. This is

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Speaker 1: the thing. No horror rider that is out there can

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Speaker 1: right the injuries like a scientist can interpret them. And

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Speaker 1: suddenly this thing springs to life in your mind when

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Speaker 1: you begin to see the outline of the butt of

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Speaker 1: a weapon. Because many times the butt of the weapon

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Speaker 1: won't be textured, it'll have marks on it, and for

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Speaker 1: every one of those strikes, you'll leave a mark behind

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Speaker 1: to indicate that there was tremendous violence. Here, you see

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Speaker 1: the streaking of blood. You see how the skin is

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Speaker 1: ripped and torn as a result of as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: Dave this laceration that arises from blunt force trauma, and

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Speaker 1: then you see the other attempts that were made to

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Speaker 1: strike these abrasions where maybe mister Cantrell, in his fighting back,

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Speaker 1: he turns his head and he just kind of the

350
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Speaker 1: butt of the weapon just kind of scrapes across the skin.

351
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Speaker 1: Then he realigns, and the next thing you know, he's

352
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Speaker 1: hit full force. But this is done over and over

353
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Speaker 1: and over again. It makes me think, Dave there, his

354
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Speaker 1: wife is laying on the floor, don't know if she's

355
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Speaker 1: dead yet, but her life is seeping out, and all

356
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Speaker 1: he can think about in that instant is to get

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Speaker 1: over to her and render aid. And that just was

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Speaker 1: not to be in this case.

359
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Speaker 2: You're right, Joe, when I go back over this, thinking

360
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Speaker 2: of you're living in a small town, a community that

361
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Speaker 2: leaves the front door unlocked, in the keys, the ignition

362
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Speaker 2: without fear, and now the worst possible thing has happened

363
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Speaker 2: in your castle, the one place you're the this is

364
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Speaker 2: your home, and this invader has now attacked in such

365
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Speaker 2: a horrible way. Your spouse is shot, you're getting beat

366
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Speaker 2: I don't know at what point mister Cantrell was not

367
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Speaker 2: alert to what was going on. I'm hoping it was

368
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Speaker 2: fairly quickly, because the first hit on that gun to

369
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Speaker 2: his head could have rendered him. It could have knocked

370
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Speaker 2: him out right. I mean, he could have been unconscious.

371
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Speaker 1: It could have And I got to interject something here

372
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Speaker 1: real quick, because this is a question that I could

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Speaker 1: asked or was always asked by family members, and you

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Speaker 1: bring it up right here, and I think that it's

375
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Speaker 1: it's certainly important. People always want to know if their

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Speaker 1: loved ones suffered. Just let that just kind of resonate

377
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Speaker 1: just for a second, and have that question asked to

378
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Speaker 1: me all the time, did they suffer? Because people want

379
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Speaker 1: to know what the status of this person that they

380
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Speaker 1: had loved throughout their life was. And early on in

381
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Speaker 1: my career I would say, no, they didn't suffer. But

382
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Speaker 1: you know, as time went by, I couldn't. I was

383
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Speaker 1: not capable of dishonesty any longer. I would simply say,

384
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Speaker 1: I don't know. In this case, I would hope that

385
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 1: he lost consciousness, but he had an awareness, and it

386
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Speaker 1: was painful. It was very painful. And I think also

387
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Speaker 1: the wife's death was very painful because she had an awareness.

388
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Speaker 1: I don't think that she initially died immediately.

389
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Speaker 2: I understand why people ask that, and I think that

390
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Speaker 2: in reality, we're asking you to tell us that our

391
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 2: loved one didn't suffer and that it was all a

392
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Speaker 2: big surprise shock and they had no idea. But you're right,

393
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 2: the truth needs to have its day because you have

394
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,640
Speaker 2: real world consequences, and sometimes you need to face these

395
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 2: consequences based on knowing what really transpired. So after he

396
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,399
Speaker 2: kills the can til after he shoots Patsy Cantrell and

397
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,879
Speaker 2: then beats Aj to death, mister Cantrell, Isismer goes across

398
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 2: the street. His original target was his ex girlfriend Catherine,

399
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 2: not necessarily her son or her mother. And again, remember

400
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 2: this is the family. The first person that Eimer met

401
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 2: when he arrived into Pew, Oklahoma was mister Wright, the

402
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 2: head of this household, mowing the yard at the Methodist church.

403
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:29,880
Speaker 2: And mister Wright invited Isismer into their church and into

404
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 2: their family. And here we are a year later. Eismer

405
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 2: has just shot Patsy Cantrell and then bludgeoned her husband,

406
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 2: Aj Cantrell. He's now across the street, and what does

407
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 2: he do? He at tacks.

408
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: He still got this weapon in his hand. Now walking

409
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,719
Speaker 1: out in public with a long arm like this across

410
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 1: the street.

411
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Speaker 2: And you know where I lived, that wouldn't be the

412
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 2: most uncommon thing. But if I saw somebody walking across

413
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 2: the street with a gun, with a shotgun, I would

414
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 2: know who the person is and probably know the type

415
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 2: of gun.

416
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, you probably would. And the four to ten is

417
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 1: something that is it is small enough that I think

418
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 1: that many people could mistake it, perhaps if you're at

419
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: a distance, not up close, but if you're at a distance,

420
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,479
Speaker 1: you could mistake it for perhaps a twenty two caliber rifle,

421
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: which again is a varmot weapon essentially. And he's walking

422
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,400
Speaker 1: across the street, and Dave, here's an interesting point when

423
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 1: we've talked about Lacart's principle on the show, the transfer

424
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,199
Speaker 1: of evidence. Every contact leaves a trace. Dave, when he

425
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: is exiting their home, he's transporting VISV that gun, and

426
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: probably himself. He's transporting biological evidence from that scene that

427
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 1: he has attached to his person and to this weapon.

428
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: Remember this weapon was used as a bludgeon. So when

429
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: he enters that home across the street, he brings that

430
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: with him.

431
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 2: Now he goes into the home, he shoots the sixteen

432
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 2: year old boy. He attacks sixty three year old mother

433
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 2: and Catherine, all of the family. His ex girlfriend, Catherine

434
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 2: Smith is attacked as well. Now they all survive. The

435
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 2: all three of those survive. He right now has just

436
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 2: killed the Cantrells. But now he's got to get out

437
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 2: of town. And this starts a thirty seven day manhunt

438
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 2: where Isimer is hiding out in the woods and everything else.

439
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 2: And I'm thinking a small community like this, and this

440
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 2: guy's able to elude capture by sleeping in the woods

441
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 2: and stuff. That's just pretty odd and remarkable of hisself.

442
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 2: But he eventually was caught after he kidnapped a couple

443
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 2: out of in Tulsa, gets him to drive to Texas

444
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 2: and this man had a couple that he kidnapped. He

445
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 2: carjacked this man in the car. He's a doctor, doctor Peeples.

446
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 2: He actually had a pistol stashed in this van. And

447
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 2: they get at a certain place and mister doctor Peebles

448
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 2: is able to shoot Isimer four or five times with

449
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 2: the handgun and thus ends the reign of terror by

450
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 2: Scott Isimer.

451
00:26:58,240 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know what I got to tell you.

452
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: The door people's we kind of briefly mentioned the manhunt

453
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 1: day when this manhunt occurred looking for Ozmer, did you

454
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 1: know that this was at the time, it was the

455
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: longest man hunt in the history of state of Oklahoma

456
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 1: that they were looking for this guy. So my thought

457
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: is is that doctor Peoples, he had an awareness. He knew,

458
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 1: you know, to go back to our analogy earlier, he

459
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 1: knew that the devil had taken hold at this point

460
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: in time that he was physically rioting, and I'm sure

461
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 1: he's thinking, he knows what's happened over into Pew and

462
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: so he knows that if he does not act quickly,

463
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: he and his wife are going to wind up the

464
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: same as the Cantrells did.

465
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 2: Good point. I did not think about that, Joe, But

466
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 2: you're right, and that to have the presence of mind

467
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 2: doctor Peeples and his protecting himself and his wife, they

468
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 2: actually I'm not saying they allowed themselves to be kidnapped,

469
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 2: but they played it just right. Where you got to

470
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: remember Isamer is already a killer, and he's been on

471
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 2: the run, and he's willing to do anything. Yet doctor

472
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 2: Peoples is able to get him settled down enough that

473
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 2: doctor Peeples's able to pull the gun and turn it

474
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 2: on him and actually shoot Scott Ismer. That's the amazing

475
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 2: thing to me is that he had the presence of mind.

476
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 2: He got this guy the coolest jets long enough for

477
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 2: doctor Peebles to gain the upper hand.

478
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: Ismer is out fleeing and eluding during this period of time.

479
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 1: I think one of the big questions is what happened

480
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 1: to that four to ten shotgun. And as it turned out,

481
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: he had taken it and thrown it out in the woods.

482
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: And when the Oklahoma authorities finally caught up with him

483
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: and he was eventually caught down I believe in Paris, Texas,

484
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: is where he had wound up. They brought him back

485
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: to Oklahoma, and the Oklahoma authorities were They were like,

486
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: all right, well, you're being charged with this. Do you

487
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: want to speak to us? He says, yeah, I'll even

488
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: take you to where the weapon is. And it initially

489
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: when they went out to the scene where he said

490
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: it was, they didn't find it on the first day.

491
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: But the second day they they did in fact find

492
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: it and it was lying along a creek bank. And

493
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: here's one of the chilling things. When they found that weapon,

494
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: it had an unfired around in it, so it still

495
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: had a chambered round that he could have used. But

496
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: here's the thing about long arms like that, if you're

497
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: carrying those around, there's no way to secret this weapon,

498
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: particularly if you're on foot. It's at that point he's

499
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: probably made this decision that he is going to kidnap

500
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: somebody else, and he I guess he figures, you know,

501
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: he's looking for an elderly target perhaps, and he can

502
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: take them down and he can get control of them

503
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: and then kind of leapfrog into the next phase of

504
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: his journey. But he left that weapon behind because he

505
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: knew that it would draw attention. Here's the thing that

506
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: I think would be critical here. This weapon had laid

507
00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: out there for weeks upon weeks, and it it creates

508
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 1: a problem forensically sometimes that if it's not handled correctly,

509
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: you might not be able to pick up on some

510
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: of the ballistic evidence that's left behind. And with shotguns,

511
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: of course, are smooth bore, it becomes particularly complicated. But

512
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: here's the thing in this case, we're not to be

513
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: concerned if Scott Eimer is going to recavoc any longer.

514
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: I don't think that the folks into Pew are going

515
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: to have to worry if he is going to come

516
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: back and do harm. Scott James Isisimer was executed on

517
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: Thursday January twelfth, twenty twenty three. He was pronounced dead

518
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen. AM. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is

519
00:30:48,800 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: bodybacks