Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
Speaker 2: and speaker.
Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer,
Speaker 3: and course creator. We are two working parents who love
Speaker 3: our careers and our families.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Best of Both Worlds. Here we talk about
Speaker 2: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun,
Speaker 2: from figuring out childcare to mapping out long.
Speaker 1: Term career goals.
Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Best of Both Worlds. This is Laura. This
Speaker 2: is actually episode four hundred. Very exciting. It's airing in
Speaker 2: the beginning of April of twenty twenty five. We began
Speaker 2: Best of Both Worlds some seven and a half years
Speaker 2: and four hundred episodes ago, and I'm very excited to
Speaker 2: be recording this one from Sarah's cl here in Fort Lauderdale. Hi, Sarah, Yes,
Speaker 2: closet headquarters.
Speaker 3: We are recording live, and this is kind of an
Speaker 3: exciting way to do four hundred yeah together.
Speaker 2: I mean, we don't get to do that many episodes
Speaker 2: together in the same place, but we've done a few
Speaker 2: and it's always.
Speaker 1: Exciting when we can. Maybe I don't know getting toward that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, did you think we'd get to four
Speaker 2: hundred episodes when we did episode number one?
Speaker 3: No, I definitely was not thinking about four hundred. I
Speaker 3: mean probably even one hundred at that point sounded really daunting.
Speaker 3: And this is like a testament to that whole thing
Speaker 3: where it's like you just keep doing something, it's amazing
Speaker 3: what it can accumulate too. I mean, what kind of
Speaker 3: library do we have at this point?
Speaker 2: Pretty large library, four hundred episodes, I hear so looking
Speaker 2: back twenty seventeen, the summer of twenty seventeen when we began,
Speaker 2: our lives looked a little bit different to our families
Speaker 2: were smaller.
Speaker 3: For instance, yes, I was pregnant with Genevieve, but I
Speaker 3: had two children at the time, Aniblee and Cameron were
Speaker 3: I guess like almost six and almost four.
Speaker 2: Yeah, cute different stages of life than now, for sure,
Speaker 2: Yeah I had I guess they would have been seven
Speaker 2: years younger than they are now.
Speaker 1: Is that like ten and eight or six or five?
Speaker 1: And yeah, your oldest would have been ten, Yeah, Aliss.
Speaker 2: Was two maybe yeah in twenty seventeen, but you know,
Speaker 2: then Henry joined us.
Speaker 1: A couple of years later.
Speaker 2: So now between the two of us, we were up
Speaker 2: to eight children, which is a good number, and we
Speaker 2: have all moved forward seven and a half years, which
Speaker 2: is also exciting that we've made it through.
Speaker 1: We are here. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I looked back to see what the hot podcasts were
Speaker 3: in twenty seventeen, and the top five mentioned were This
Speaker 3: American Life, Radio Lab, s Town Remember s Town?
Speaker 1: I think that was like a spin off of the serial.
Speaker 3: Our second round didn't hit quite as well, and then
Speaker 3: something called Hardcore History. But the main thing was that
Speaker 3: Laura and I noted that there was like a smattering
Speaker 3: of podcasts by women, but most of them were kind
Speaker 3: of about the stay at home mom life or homesteading
Speaker 3: or something that was a little bit different from our
Speaker 3: everyday experience. And we saw that gap and like, hey,
Speaker 3: where are the working parents?
Speaker 1: Which we figured out why the gap was there. Again,
Speaker 1: do we go?
Speaker 3: A podcast take some time, So it's a hard thing
Speaker 3: to throw on top of a inflexible full time career,
Speaker 3: but since we both ended up with some flexibility, we
Speaker 3: were able to make it work.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, it's very exciting that we've been able to do it,
Speaker 2: and of course we'd love to hear from people. If
Speaker 2: you have a favorite episode, I guess if you have
Speaker 2: a least favorite episode, you can share that as well.
Speaker 1: Feel free to reach out to either of us.
Speaker 2: We're also trying to figure out as we move forward,
Speaker 2: because we planned to keep going at least for now.
Speaker 2: I don't know if there'll be an episode eight hundred.
Speaker 2: Who even knows what life will look like in seven
Speaker 2: and a half years, But we do want to keep
Speaker 2: this relevant for women in different stages of life, and
Speaker 2: particularly this is a challenge for us as our kids
Speaker 2: get older.
Speaker 3: Right, Sarah, Yeah, we want to make sure we still
Speaker 3: you know, I do think having the blog and the
Speaker 3: podcast helps me remember a little bit more than I
Speaker 3: see some of my peers remembering what it was like
Speaker 3: to have really little kids. Also the fact that Laura
Speaker 3: has a very wide age spread so has spent a
Speaker 3: lot of years over and over again doing the really
Speaker 3: little kid thing.
Speaker 1: I think that drums at home maybe more than just
Speaker 1: doing one round of it might.
Speaker 3: But yeah, we want to make sure that even if
Speaker 3: you are just thinking about having your first kid, that
Speaker 3: this podcast still feels like it's for you.
Speaker 1: So hopefully we're able to continue doing that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and definitely send us ideas for guests for episodes,
Speaker 2: things you'd like us to cover more. We definitely come
Speaker 2: up with a lot of our ideas from listener suggestions,
Speaker 2: so definitely encourage that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, anything else we have to say about episode
Speaker 1: four hundred, no, just thank you.
Speaker 3: We appreciate that we're only still here because people want
Speaker 3: to listen to us, so it's amazing. It's a privilege
Speaker 3: to be in your feed. However you listen to this.
Speaker 1: Podcas absolutely well.
Speaker 2: So the bulk of this episode is going to be
Speaker 2: talking about a different topic, which is protecting your deep
Speaker 2: work time. So deep work being a phrase that we've
Speaker 2: gotten from Cal Newport, has been a guest on our
Speaker 2: other podcast. But the time that you are spending in
Speaker 2: focused work and not constantly being pulled in different directions,
Speaker 2: and it's kind of important to have this time just
Speaker 2: for thinking, for creating, for being strategic. And I know
Speaker 2: that particularly if you do have a lot going in
Speaker 2: your personal life and you have a flexible job, this
Speaker 2: could be hard. Now obviously if you are in a
Speaker 2: place where you cannot be reached from the outside world.
Speaker 2: I mean you're in your office doing your work for
Speaker 2: your eight hours I mean, when Sarah's doing clinical work,
Speaker 2: there's not a whole.
Speaker 1: Lot of back and forth. There's not zero back.
Speaker 2: There's not zero back and forth, but less than there is.
Speaker 2: I mean, do you struggle with this is more on
Speaker 2: your work from home days though, right.
Speaker 1: I do.
Speaker 3: I do, although sometimes I'm just you know, a teacher
Speaker 3: will call you or you know, of course I'm happy
Speaker 3: to deal with stuff. But the truth is, neither of
Speaker 3: my husband are flexible, so it's not like he's a
Speaker 3: better option. But it is amazing that even when you're
Speaker 3: really like going back and forth, sometimes things get interrupted.
Speaker 3: But I'm more vulnerable to it on my non clinical days,
Speaker 3: that is true.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean you generally try to start work
Speaker 2: at when on the non clinical days, would you.
Speaker 3: Say as soon as I've dropped off the kids. Sometimes, well,
Speaker 3: I mean my schedule is going to be different. There
Speaker 3: were some days when I actually chose to work really
Speaker 3: early and then run after I drop them off back
Speaker 3: in those days, but other times I would run early
Speaker 3: and then I would drop them off at school, and
Speaker 3: then like writ at eight thirty, I would sit down
Speaker 3: and I often had something scheduled many times for like
Speaker 3: nine maybe it was in an interview or you know,
Speaker 3: something to do, or it was like I have to
Speaker 3: get X y Z done by eleven am because at
Speaker 3: eleven I have a pall or an interview or something
Speaker 3: like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So but then that would be the day as well
Speaker 2: when kid appointments would wind up, or if there was
Speaker 2: some earon that you particularly had to do or what.
Speaker 1: That's when it happens, of course.
Speaker 3: Totally my own appointments, kid appointments, unexpected stuff. Something breaks
Speaker 3: in the house and like, oh convenient, she's home.
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, I'm home.
Speaker 3: But like, if I'm leading a paid course session, am
Speaker 3: I interruptable?
Speaker 1: No? No, actually I will answer that. No, I know. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So it's a struggle for sure, and it's wonderful to
Speaker 2: have a flexible job, but you just do have to
Speaker 2: be aware of this. And so I had written something
Speaker 2: for my substack. I have the substack newsletter called vander Hacks,
Speaker 2: and I do how tos and tips and things like that,
Speaker 2: and I wrote one about protecting your deep work time.
Speaker 2: And I think email number one I got about it
Speaker 2: was from a certain Sarah Hardhunger. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I read pretty much all of Laura's and this one
Speaker 3: I was like, ooh, we need this. Is this hit
Speaker 3: me where it hurt because I think we had just
Speaker 3: had some I don't know, something broke, some minor disaster,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, we are all feeling this acutely and
Speaker 3: we need to talk about this more. And I mean,
Speaker 3: you haven't really mentioned the gender divide here, but this
Speaker 3: is where I think sometimes when people talk about deep
Speaker 3: work and stuff, they're like, that sounds awesome and I
Speaker 3: don't get to do it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think this is such an awesome topic
Speaker 1: to talk about. Yeah. So, I mean I analyze.
Speaker 2: I tracked my time and I have for ten years now,
Speaker 2: and I analyzed all my time in twenty twenty four
Speaker 2: as part of an exercise for the book I was writing.
Speaker 2: And I know that I work fewer than forty pure
Speaker 2: hours of work per week, right I'm at my desk
Speaker 2: probably more than that, but in terms of actual focused work,
Speaker 2: it was drifting under that. But I was still surprised
Speaker 2: to see it only came out to about thirty two
Speaker 2: hours per week. And that is because I think of
Speaker 2: a normal work day as starting at by eight and
Speaker 2: go to five, but there are very few normal work
Speaker 2: days for various reasons that flexibility turns out to be
Speaker 2: a double edged sword. And because I could do things
Speaker 2: during the workdays, I often was doing things during the workdays.
Speaker 1: And on some level it is okay.
Speaker 2: I will say that twenty twenty four was a very
Speaker 2: productive year. I got a lot done, I earned a
Speaker 2: reasonable amount of money, made professional progress on things.
Speaker 1: But I wrote like a whole book. Yeah I did.
Speaker 2: I did write a book, But sometimes I felt like
Speaker 2: I didn't have enough time to execute on the ideas
Speaker 2: that I had. And I want to be fair to
Speaker 2: myself and to my own ambitions and creativity and all
Speaker 2: that and create enough time to do that. So when
Speaker 2: we come back from our break, we are going to
Speaker 2: talk through some tips on how you can protect your
Speaker 2: deep work time even if you do have a flexible
Speaker 2: job as well. Well, we are back in this our
Speaker 2: four hundredth episode talking about how to protect your deep
Speaker 2: work time, and the first strategy I want to talk
Speaker 2: about is being strategic with exercise. Now, we are big
Speaker 2: fans of exercise, even if that looks different from us
Speaker 2: for us now than it that might have a couple
Speaker 2: weeks ago as a long topic, people didn't listen to
Speaker 2: the past two episodes.
Speaker 1: You can go back to those.
Speaker 2: But for many years I worked out during business hours
Speaker 2: because I could, and more importantly, it's always time I
Speaker 2: knew would be available, like the.
Speaker 1: Kids had childcare or we're in school, And it.
Speaker 2: Always felt like working out after work would cause scheduling hassles,
Speaker 2: like if I was trying to go out for a
Speaker 2: run at five o'clock, something would happen and I wouldn't
Speaker 2: get to my run, Or if I tried to schedule
Speaker 2: a time with my trainer for five point thirty, something
Speaker 2: would happen and it would just be a problem. And
Speaker 2: so I'd always do it for during the time when
Speaker 2: people were not around me.
Speaker 1: But that means that wasn't work time.
Speaker 2: I mean, Sarah, you, I mean you got in the
Speaker 2: habit of doing pre work just for clinical days because
Speaker 2: you had to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I also live in a hot climate
Speaker 3: and most of my workouts are outside, so I was
Speaker 3: highly highly motivated to generally get things done well before
Speaker 3: the start of normal work hours, so that was a
Speaker 3: less of an issue for me. The other thing I
Speaker 3: will say about this is that I started doing some
Speaker 3: strength training, and I figured.
Speaker 1: Out that if I was going to do it, during
Speaker 1: the work day.
Speaker 3: Do it when I'm brain dead, Like, do not do
Speaker 3: it at nine am, because that's like prime hours. But like,
Speaker 3: if I'm the kind of person who maybe is not
Speaker 3: that useful by four anyway, then that would be like
Speaker 3: a reasonable kind of during business hours time for work day.
Speaker 3: So even if you are just setting to use business
Speaker 3: type hours, those hours are not created equal in terms
Speaker 3: of what you're capable of, and so that's something to
Speaker 3: take into consideration as well.
Speaker 2: You could also specifically do it as a lunch break, yes, right,
Speaker 2: and so but I do currently I meet with my
Speaker 2: trainer virtually, but at twelve thirty on Mondays, and so
Speaker 2: that is time that I probably would not have been
Speaker 2: intensely working because I would have been hungry. So I
Speaker 2: tend to grab something very quick on Mondays, do my
Speaker 2: workout from twelve thirty to one.
Speaker 1: It's very quick and efficient, and then.
Speaker 2: Get back to my desk ideally by one point fifteen
Speaker 2: or so. So that's a little better to do that
Speaker 2: or yeah, Sarah said, in the afternoon when you start
Speaker 2: to get a little bit tired. But I also just
Speaker 2: if I am doing a workout during the day, understanding
Speaker 2: that that is my break for the day, like there
Speaker 2: should not be a lengthy lunch and the exercise, like
Speaker 2: we need to protect this time.
Speaker 1: Yes, that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Another thing then, with in terms of making sure that
Speaker 2: all work hours are not created equal, asking for more
Speaker 2: convenient appointments. And I've started to do this with my
Speaker 2: older children just because it's hard for for them to
Speaker 2: miss school that you know, you miss ap calculus, you're
Speaker 2: actually missing something you probably needed to learn for the exam.
Speaker 2: There's not enough sessions to cover everything. You know, you're
Speaker 2: racing through stuff, so it really needs to be not
Speaker 2: during the school day, if at all possible. And then
Speaker 2: I realized, wait, I'm not doing the same thing for myself,
Speaker 2: and particularly what issue. In early twenty twenty four, longtime
Speaker 2: listeners know, I was going to multiple physical therapy appointments
Speaker 2: per week for my back issue, and they would offer
Speaker 2: me times like eleven am, and I would look at
Speaker 2: my calendar and there would be nothing at eleven am
Speaker 2: on Tuesday, and I'd be like, Okay. But when you
Speaker 2: find yourself doing that as somebody who has a flexible job,
Speaker 2: just stop.
Speaker 3: In the middle of the day, I think is the
Speaker 3: worst because you're like, oh, I can't really do that
Speaker 3: much in the morning because I'm gonna have to get
Speaker 3: ready to go, and then it's like, oh, I went
Speaker 3: to that and.
Speaker 2: That, Like yeah, I mean then it's like lunch, right,
Speaker 2: and so the next thing, you know, again, you're not
Speaker 2: at your desk like one o'clock from like eleven am
Speaker 2: appointment you left at ten thirty. I mean, this is
Speaker 2: just ridiculous. It's a bad idea. So there's early mornings.
Speaker 2: Often places that serve the public in any sort of
Speaker 2: way would open at eight am, So that might be
Speaker 2: an option or just what Sarah was saying, right like
Speaker 2: later afternoon when your brain is not working as well.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, if you know that, you probably were Friday afternoon.
Speaker 3: You know, although we do think that's helpful for planning
Speaker 3: if you do it theain, but maybe you could plan
Speaker 3: while you're sitting in the waiting room.
Speaker 1: You can be creative about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And sometimes people have evening or weekend hours.
Speaker 1: I mean you may have to ask about it.
Speaker 3: Our dentist has like they don't like to talk about it,
Speaker 3: but if you're really desperate, sometimes you can get a
Speaker 3: weekend orthodonist or dentist appointment.
Speaker 1: I think they work.
Speaker 3: They have like one weekend a month and they probably
Speaker 3: reserve it for people that are really really begging. And
Speaker 3: so I've we have or what happens is we've been
Speaker 3: able to get those if someone cancels, so I'll say, like,
Speaker 3: put me on a wait list for Saturday, and.
Speaker 1: Then a lot of times it's worked out. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: you can ask for more convenient appointments.
Speaker 2: So think about you might have a time of day
Speaker 2: or week that you would like.
Speaker 1: To schedule most of your appointments.
Speaker 2: And so when you are there calling the dentists and
Speaker 2: they're like, well, can you come in at ten am
Speaker 2: on Tuesday, You'll be like, do you have anything at
Speaker 2: two thirty right, And just maybe they don't, or maybe
Speaker 2: you wind up going to the dentist on a seven
Speaker 2: month rotation instead of a six month rotation, but probably
Speaker 2: your teeth will be fine.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And this isn't all or nothing. Of course, there's
Speaker 3: going to be some specialist appointment where it's just too bad.
Speaker 3: I mean, listen, I feel sort of like hypocritical saying yes,
Speaker 3: because sometimes people really want to get in for an
Speaker 3: appointment in our office, and especially for that first appointment,
Speaker 3: and we're trying to make space for you. We might
Speaker 3: only offer you eleven am because it's less desirable and
Speaker 3: they're going to have to sometimes say yes. But then
Speaker 3: there's like the routine braces fitting and you go all
Speaker 3: the time. And so maybe you can't have every appointment
Speaker 3: be optimal, but try to optimize the ones where it's possible.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, Just because you can doesn't mean you should,
Speaker 2: all right, So this is the next principle, or at
Speaker 2: least you shouldn't always. So where this often comes in
Speaker 2: is that people who work from home or people who
Speaker 2: have flexible jobs could probably take their kids to school
Speaker 2: or pick them up or both. And so sometimes you
Speaker 2: think that you should take your kids to school or
Speaker 2: pick them up or both. But this can pretty quickly
Speaker 2: cut into a work day. I know that when our
Speaker 2: normal childcare was not available a few weeks ago, for
Speaker 2: several days, I was the one who was generally bringing
Speaker 2: Henry and Alex to school in the morning and then
Speaker 2: picking up Henry because there's no bus service for preschool obviously,
Speaker 2: so I wouldn't get to my desk until nine point fifteen,
Speaker 2: nine twenty. I would have to leave at two forty
Speaker 2: five to go get Henry and even if I could
Speaker 2: convince him to, like go watch a video from like
Speaker 2: three point fifteen to four thirty or something, and so
Speaker 2: I would be back up my death. It's so chopped
Speaker 2: up the time right, like nine to fifteen to two
Speaker 2: forty five is only a five and a half hour day.
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying like you can't do it, but
Speaker 2: you might think about not always doing it. So our
Speaker 2: current balance is that three days a week we have
Speaker 2: childcare starting at seven thirty in the morning, and I
Speaker 2: am just not responsible for the morning. I am at
Speaker 2: my desk at seven forty five and the day goes
Speaker 2: from there. Two mornings a week, I take the little
Speaker 2: boys to school, so I get that experience right of
Speaker 2: seeing the teachers, seeing the car line, talking to them
Speaker 2: in the car. So it's getting a little bit of both.
Speaker 2: And so it's not an either or thing like Ooh,
Speaker 2: I'm a bad mom because I'm not taking my kids
Speaker 2: to school. It's like, Okay, well, I guess I'm two
Speaker 2: days a week being that mom.
Speaker 1: I don't know, no totally.
Speaker 3: I think getting rid of the all or nothing because
Speaker 3: I've heard parents say that, oh, but I want to
Speaker 3: spend time with my kids in the morning.
Speaker 2: Well you can.
Speaker 3: You could do two days, you could do three days.
Speaker 3: Like figure out what the right balance would be for you.
Speaker 3: But it doesn't have to automatically be five days.
Speaker 2: Yeah, five, and especially the pick up in the afternoon,
Speaker 2: because that can cut into an afternoon very quickly. And
Speaker 2: again it doesn't have to be all five days a week.
Speaker 2: But maybe you'll arrange for somebody else does a pick
Speaker 2: up two or three days a week, or you have
Speaker 2: an aftercare thing going a couple days a week.
Speaker 1: It just gives you a longer stretch of time.
Speaker 2: So that afternoon, especially if you're coming back from if
Speaker 2: you pause to eat lunch, let's say twelve to twelve
Speaker 2: thirty or even twelve to twelve fifteen. I mean, you
Speaker 2: only have like the two hours in the afternoon to
Speaker 2: do anything if you have to leave for a three
Speaker 2: pm pickup. It just you want to make sure that
Speaker 2: you have coverage that you can start developing a thought
Speaker 2: and getting into the groove. I mean that's true with
Speaker 2: childcare in general.
Speaker 3: Yes, I was like underpinning, this is the thing we've
Speaker 3: said so many times on so many episodes. Definitely this
Speaker 3: is appropriate for episode four hundred. Is like you are
Speaker 3: working a job, and you should make sure you have
Speaker 3: enough childcare to make that work well for you. And
Speaker 3: remember that the childcare is not just for you, it's
Speaker 3: also for your partner.
Speaker 2: Yes, if you have a partner, it is for both
Speaker 2: of you. And so yeah, maybe, and don't be cheap.
Speaker 2: I mean, I get this again that like people like, well,
Speaker 2: how can I pay for the fewest number of hours
Speaker 2: as possible? And because I'm working from home ergo I
Speaker 2: could do all these things. But if you keep in
Speaker 2: mind that thought, just because I can doesn't mean I should.
Speaker 2: It is possible, especially if you have a sort of
Speaker 2: entrepreneurial job where it's not straightforward how much you are
Speaker 2: going to get paid. Maybe you'll come up with a
Speaker 2: great idea in that like two thirty to four thirty
Speaker 2: window where you are working that would.
Speaker 1: Pay for your childcare for the next six months.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know, that's kind of a big ask,
Speaker 2: but like it could happen, right, Like it could happen,
Speaker 2: So don't count yourself.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a little bit of a a long game
Speaker 3: or investment aspect to this. I think again, that can
Speaker 3: apply more to some career paths than others. I get that,
Speaker 3: but you never know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you won't need childcare forever, so you can
Speaker 2: view this as a temporary thing to protect your earning
Speaker 2: potential long term. We'll do one more before we go
Speaker 2: to our second break, but stop with the housework.
Speaker 1: And errand's already Sarah, are you guilty of this? Not really?
Speaker 1: Not really? Okay? Good?
Speaker 3: It helps that I'm just not the best, like the
Speaker 3: most caring. I'll just keep forever. So yeah, no, I don't, really,
Speaker 3: I don't. I'm trying to think, like sometimes all's sort
Speaker 3: of straighten up the kitchen if it's like total okay, disclaimer.
Speaker 3: If we do have like a cleaning service that comes
Speaker 3: and if they're calming, I do tend to do like
Speaker 3: a quick like I'm talking like fifteen minute, like make
Speaker 3: sure it's not a disaster, so that when they come
Speaker 3: in they can like start in a reasonable space.
Speaker 1: But nothing beyond that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean anyone who has worked from home has
Speaker 2: probably felt the siren song of getting ahead on the
Speaker 2: laweaundry or cleaning up the kitchen after everyone has trashed
Speaker 2: it in the morning.
Speaker 1: I know that is.
Speaker 2: A like on the mornings that I do bring the
Speaker 2: little boys to school. I am them walking back into
Speaker 2: the kitchen at like nine point fifteen, and many times
Speaker 2: it still looks like whatever disaster happened in there in
Speaker 2: the course of getting out the door, and you know,
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, I get this cleaned up. It's like, well, okay,
Speaker 2: Or I could not do that, and I could just
Speaker 2: get to my desk already and get these prime work
Speaker 2: hours in the morning.
Speaker 1: So just be very careful about it. I'm not saying that.
Speaker 2: Moving a load of laundry in the middle of the
Speaker 2: day is a terrible thing. I mean, or while you're
Speaker 2: on a zoomah, while you're yeah, I mean, I do
Speaker 2: understand that it has to happen at some point, and
Speaker 2: not having to do it all weekend might be an upside.
Speaker 2: But just be aware because many times it is in
Speaker 2: fact easier and more satisfying to empty the dishwasher than
Speaker 2: to sit down and really struggle through a problem you're having,
Speaker 2: like how do I come up with a new thing
Speaker 2: for this client that's going to make them want to
Speaker 2: re up for the next year, Like how can I
Speaker 2: explain my value proposition to them? I need to work
Speaker 2: on this proposal, or I could go empty the dishwasher.
Speaker 1: My kids are.
Speaker 3: So good at cleaning their room when they have something
Speaker 3: they're stressing about. Homework wise, Yeah, it's actually kind of nice.
Speaker 1: I'm like wow, But then it's like wait a second.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, your office, your home office is like sparkling
Speaker 2: because like I really don't want to call Jen and
Speaker 2: work through this thing, right, yeah, like we all done it,
Speaker 2: but you just want to be aware that this is
Speaker 2: what you are doing. Just because you work from home
Speaker 2: or work flexibly doesn't mean that you should be getting
Speaker 2: all the housework done by five pm when you would
Speaker 2: be quitting. And it's probably still worth if you would
Speaker 2: have had a cleaning service when you're in the office.
Speaker 2: Probably should still have one even if you're working from home.
Speaker 1: All Right, we're going to take a quick ad break.
Speaker 2: And we'll be back with a little bit more on
Speaker 2: protecting your deep work time. Well, we are back with
Speaker 2: episode four hundred, where we are talking about how to
Speaker 2: protect your deep work time. I mean, this is really,
Speaker 2: you know, trying to have the best of both worlds.
Speaker 2: We often worry about work kind of taking over our
Speaker 2: personal time, but I find many women in particular and
Speaker 2: people who do have flexible jobs can find that their
Speaker 2: personal lives are taking over work time. And I'm not
Speaker 2: even talking about like the good stuff like playing with
Speaker 2: your children. I'm talking all the other things that go on,
Speaker 2: and one of these is.
Speaker 1: Being perhaps a homeowner.
Speaker 2: And it turns out that homes have things that go wrong, right, Sarah.
Speaker 3: I mean all of mine do constantly. So you actually
Speaker 3: don't even have to be a homeowner. You could be
Speaker 3: a renter.
Speaker 1: A renter, it's still wrong.
Speaker 2: Although you know so maybe it's more of the landlord's
Speaker 2: problem than your problem. But you might still have to
Speaker 2: have someone still has to be home. Yeah, but you're
Speaker 2: not paying for it exactly. No easier when we were renting.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So the last strategy here as we are thinking about
Speaker 2: protecting deep work time is the phrase, no, the contractor
Speaker 2: cannot come in the nine am to noon window. Okay,
Speaker 2: So this is the bane of anyone who works from
Speaker 2: home's life, Like, yes, you're gonna be the one letting
Speaker 2: in the contractor because you are there and they give
Speaker 2: you these huge windows. And the problem is not so
Speaker 2: much like is it a terrible burden to open the door?
Speaker 1: No it is not.
Speaker 2: But the problem is you don't want to schedule meetings
Speaker 2: or anything deep that might be interrupted if you know
Speaker 2: that the plumber might show up between nine and eleven
Speaker 2: and you don't know whins. You're kind of listening for it.
Speaker 2: And I especially don't want to start recording if I
Speaker 2: don't have somebody there to deal with it, because like
Speaker 2: I'll have to stop recording it like be very embarrassing
Speaker 2: if I was being interviewed for a podcast and I'm like, Okay, sorry,
Speaker 2: there's the doorbell, I gotta go talk to the plumber
Speaker 2: for ten minutes about this issue. So you don't schedule
Speaker 2: things or you don't get deeply involved in something because
Speaker 2: you're kind of listening for when the plumber is going
Speaker 2: to show up, and then of course while they're there,
Speaker 2: they might have questions. You might have to pay them
Speaker 2: at the end. So since this is inevitable that something
Speaker 2: will break and you will have to deal with it,
Speaker 2: you have a couple options. I mean, one is trying
Speaker 2: to concentrate these appointments to a certain time, and you
Speaker 2: particularly need to communicate this to anyone else in your
Speaker 2: household who might be scheduling these, Like it is not
Speaker 2: a costless thing to have a contractor show up if
Speaker 2: your spouse is working from home.
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, Like let's be clear here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have like sometimes oh, you're going to be there,
Speaker 3: but actually, well maybe i'm first of all, maybe I'm
Speaker 3: not going to be there. Maybe that is my parent
Speaker 3: teacher conference. So you have to be very careful. And
Speaker 3: then I think sometimes, as we talked about, like jobs
Speaker 3: can be seen as more flexible than they actually are. Like,
Speaker 3: of course, if there's an emergency, certain things I do
Speaker 3: can be canceled, but in general I have a good
Speaker 3: number of fixed things, even on my quote flexible days
Speaker 3: that really can't bear someone coming to the door and
Speaker 3: then needing to be spoken with, et cetera.
Speaker 2: So one option is say all of these need to
Speaker 2: happen on Friday, if at all possible. Now, obviously, if
Speaker 2: you have a huge gushing leak in your house and
Speaker 2: you need a plumber right away, this is a different matter.
Speaker 2: But if it's something sort of longer, like I need
Speaker 2: the painter to come give a bid, well, guess what,
Speaker 2: the painter can probably come on a Friday. If you've
Speaker 2: decided that Friday is the day that all of these
Speaker 2: things happen, or even every other Friday, or trying to
Speaker 2: ask for a later window if they say, yeah, we're
Speaker 2: going to come on Thursday, and be like, I would
Speaker 2: like the later window in the day, right, So the
Speaker 2: two to five, the two to five window instead of
Speaker 2: the nine to twelve window or whatever it is, because
Speaker 2: that way, it's not your best time. Most people are
Speaker 2: more focused, more productive in the more and the other option,
Speaker 2: which is what we wound up doing because longtime listeners
Speaker 2: know we bought this older house that has had to
Speaker 2: have extensive renovations which involved a lot of contractor visits.
Speaker 2: Even now, is that we hired a home manager who
Speaker 2: works two days a week and she does lots of
Speaker 2: different things, but one of the things she is responsible
Speaker 2: for is all contractor visits. I mean unless it's something
Speaker 2: that's out in the yard and they don't even need
Speaker 2: to be inside ever or talk to anyone, then she
Speaker 2: schedules all of these for the days that she is working.
Speaker 1: And so I the liaison. She's the liaison. It's great.
Speaker 2: So it was really great, Like I mean, there was
Speaker 2: somebody in there the other day working on like it's
Speaker 2: built in coffee. It's like you buy fancy appliances and
Speaker 2: then they break but whoops, whoops. But I was like
Speaker 2: sitting there working on my book or something, and she
Speaker 2: was dealing with it. I was like, Uh, this is
Speaker 2: exactly why we did this, as I am not out
Speaker 2: there dealing with the waiting for the person to show up.
Speaker 2: And again, I know that's not an option for everybody,
Speaker 2: but you know, even just one day a week, or
Speaker 2: if you have an after school sitter, but the person
Speaker 2: has some flexibility and wants some extra hours, maybe they
Speaker 2: can work two afternoons a week starting at noon, and
Speaker 2: they could do household chores.
Speaker 1: And they could also be the liaison with any contractors.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean someone a team might be difficult to
Speaker 3: interface with contractors, but like a college student might be
Speaker 3: willing to do that for a very reasonable rate, especially
Speaker 3: if you're like you can do homework, you can do
Speaker 3: whatever you want. I just need you to sit here
Speaker 3: and answer the door. So that could be a good solution.
Speaker 3: That could be an option too.
Speaker 2: I mean, sometimes again we have to pay to protect
Speaker 2: our deep work time. But again, if you were in
Speaker 2: an office, this wouldn't even be a question. You probably
Speaker 2: aren't taking all of Wednesday off to have painters come
Speaker 2: give bids, right like, So don't think that you can
Speaker 2: get all your work done at home and have three
Speaker 2: painters stopping by it to give bids as well. Like,
Speaker 2: it's just going to ruin your whole day, So make
Speaker 2: sure that you are protecting your deep work time and
Speaker 2: hopefully you will feel more productive and advance in your
Speaker 2: career and make enough money.
Speaker 1: To cover the extra outline love it, love it all?
Speaker 2: Right, Well, here's an appropriate question for episode four hundred.
Speaker 2: Sounds like you guys have fun podcasting? Should I start
Speaker 2: a podcast?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: And no.
Speaker 3: So if you want to start a podcast because it
Speaker 3: just sounds super fun, you want to hear your voice
Speaker 3: out there, You just want to maybe want to build
Speaker 3: a network of people interested in a specific topic and
Speaker 3: you know you'll be able to reach them that way,
Speaker 3: And it's not specifically for the podcast to earn money,
Speaker 3: I say absolutely try it. Why not if you want
Speaker 3: to start a podcast because you think it's going to
Speaker 3: be a great business plan to have your podcast kill
Speaker 3: it and get bought by Spotify for ten million dollars
Speaker 3: and like earn a whole bunch of money from ads.
Speaker 3: I don't recommend it, I think ea, especially now, I
Speaker 3: mean even in twenty seventeen, but especially now, podcasting itself
Speaker 3: is just not a huge revenue generator unless you're huge,
Speaker 3: and if you're huge, you might not care about the
Speaker 3: revenue that a podcast would generate. I could see, like,
Speaker 3: I don't know, if you're like a big name influencer
Speaker 3: and you just want like another channel and you're already huge,
Speaker 3: it might be a great thing to add to your portfolio.
Speaker 3: But if you're starting without a huge platform, it's not
Speaker 3: super likely. I mean, we are not earning lots of
Speaker 3: money from our podcast. It's a wonderful way to have
Speaker 3: a platform so you can earn money doing other things,
Speaker 3: so it can be part of a career package, and
Speaker 3: I think a lot of people use it really well
Speaker 3: that way. And again, it can be so fun because
Speaker 3: you're building a network of people that are interested in
Speaker 3: similar things and you get ideas and you share ideas,
Speaker 3: and then maybe that grows into other things. But I
Speaker 3: guess I think that when I started this podcast, things
Speaker 3: were a little different, and maybe I was deluded to think, like, wow,
Speaker 3: you could like that could be your main gig.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think it's going to be most people's
Speaker 2: main gigs. If you are trying to raise your profile,
Speaker 2: build a platform make a name for yourself. As we
Speaker 2: said in a previous episode, it can be a good
Speaker 2: part of that.
Speaker 1: I do think it's helpful to do a couple of things.
Speaker 2: I mean, one, if you can have a co host,
Speaker 2: it feels a lot more doable. I mean, it's two
Speaker 2: people to do the work. You can also just make
Speaker 2: an episode out of the two of you talking, which
Speaker 2: is slightly harder to do if it's just you. I mean,
Speaker 2: you obviously can just get on a microphone and talk,
Speaker 2: but many people find out a little bit more challenging
Speaker 2: than having a back and forth conversation. And then you
Speaker 2: also want to make sure that you have enough material
Speaker 2: to go for a while. And I think we mentioned
Speaker 2: this in Then make a Name for Yourself Episode two
Speaker 2: that try to make a list of at least twenty
Speaker 2: episodes that you could do. And you don't need to
Speaker 2: record twenty episodes all at once at the beginning, I mean,
Speaker 2: you'll have time to do that. But if you can't
Speaker 2: come up with twenty different episode ideas, then maybe you
Speaker 2: need to expand your scope or think of a slightly
Speaker 2: different area, or how you could bring somebody in the
Speaker 2: cover different topics. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it,
Speaker 2: but you should make sure that you have enough material
Speaker 2: to keep going for a while, because, like anything, it
Speaker 2: will take a while to take off, and you want
Speaker 2: to give yourself enough runway to be successful. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think one other benefit is that you will gain
Speaker 3: skills doing it, Like there are things I have learned.
Speaker 3: I never knew how to interview anyone before this, and
Speaker 3: now I feel pretty d uncomfortable generating list of questions
Speaker 3: and like holding my own interviewing, which I think is
Speaker 3: a useful skill for many career paths. I essentially do
Speaker 3: not I don't know if I did before, but like,
Speaker 3: I really don't have like speaking stage freight of any kind.
Speaker 3: I was joking that, like, well, at least my heart
Speaker 3: rate doesn't go up when I go I'm going to
Speaker 3: do a speech like a bad joke. Now too soon,
Speaker 3: but soon you gain a skill set by doing this.
Speaker 3: I I'm not saying I'm perfect at it either, and
Speaker 3: I probably could work harder at improving my skills because
Speaker 3: I don't do a lot of re listening to myself
Speaker 3: or anything. But just still, four hundred episodes is a
Speaker 3: lot of practice.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of practice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so see if you can at least come up
Speaker 2: with twenty ideas and you'll gain skills as you go.
Speaker 2: But it can be a lot of fun. We've had
Speaker 2: a lot of fun with it. So thank you all
Speaker 2: for sticking around for four hundred episodes. Those of you
Speaker 2: have we have some complete listeners, which is very exciting,
Speaker 2: so shout out to those.
Speaker 1: And our love of the week, Sarah.
Speaker 3: I mean, what else, We're just going to go for
Speaker 3: best of both worlds because this podcast is awesome.
Speaker 1: I love the name of our podcast, by the way.
Speaker 1: I mean sometimes I'll just.
Speaker 3: Hear the phrase use and I'm like, yeah, you guest
Speaker 3: your as you're advertising for us exactly. I just think
Speaker 3: it's fit so well, and it's been so fun and
Speaker 3: so fun to see it grow and to now have
Speaker 3: like members who like, you know, I don't know, it's
Speaker 3: just the community aspect of it has been way more
Speaker 3: rewarding than I could have identified at the outset.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you'd like to become more involved with
Speaker 2: the community, I should just do a quick shout out here.
Speaker 2: We do have a Patreon community. We have great discussion
Speaker 2: threads going on our web page. We usually do three
Speaker 2: or four a week often get lots of helpful comments.
Speaker 2: Because it's well pay, well protected community. People are often
Speaker 2: willing to share advice in a way I think a
Speaker 2: lot of us would be a little bit more reticent
Speaker 2: to do just out in the open on the internet
Speaker 2: or on social media. We have monthly Zoom meetups where
Speaker 2: we talk about all sorts of different topics. We have
Speaker 2: a great time, so you know, if you enjoy the show,
Speaker 2: feel free to come join us.
Speaker 1: We'd love to have you. Yes, Oh my gosh, exciting
Speaker 1: four hundred, four hundred.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Thanky Friday, Happy birthday to Best of Both Worlds.
Speaker 2: All right, well, we will be back next week for
Speaker 2: our four hundred and first episode, and in the meantime,
Speaker 2: you know, here's to making the most of work in life,
Speaker 2: I guess, making work in life, making work in life
Speaker 2: fit together.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.
Speaker 3: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com
Speaker 3: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you.
Speaker 1: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
Speaker 1: has been the Best of Both Worlds podcast.
Speaker 2: Please join us next time for more on making work
Speaker 2: and life work together.