Speaker 1: At the end of my do all presentation about what
Speaker 1: brand stewardship is, the clients stood and applauded. I have
Speaker 1: never had that happen before since with clients, and they
Speaker 1: all went home and called Ogilvy people in their countries
Speaker 1: and said, I want some brand stewardship, Hi, everybody. Charlotte
Speaker 1: Beers is a true luminary in the advertising world. Beers
Speaker 1: has been nicknamed the most powerful woman in advertising, the
Speaker 1: Queen of Medicine Avenue, and she's known as the woman
Speaker 1: who broke the glass ceiling in advertising. Charlotte has graced
Speaker 1: the cover of both Fortune and Business Week. In two
Speaker 1: thousand and one, she was appointed by the late Secretary
Speaker 1: of State, Colin Powell to serve as Under Secretary of
Speaker 1: State for Public Diplomacy and Public Affairs. In two thousand
Speaker 1: and nine, Charlotte was inducted into the Advertising Hall of Fame.
Speaker 1: There's even a worse at Harvard that studies her leadership
Speaker 1: at one of the nation's largest advertising firms. Charlotte is
Speaker 1: one of my dearest friends. We've known each other for
Speaker 1: many years. She's also served on the board of my company. Charlotte,
Speaker 1: it's a pleasure to have you on my podcast. Well,
Speaker 1: it's exciting. You know what. This reminds me of the
Speaker 1: time you and I volunteered to speak to a thousand
Speaker 1: women in Indianapolis and I'm getting ready with the script
Speaker 1: and you said, no, no, no, we'll just sit down
Speaker 1: and have pictures and we'll talk. And I thought it
Speaker 1: would be a disaster, because you have a lot more
Speaker 1: pictures than I do. But in fact, it was spontaneous
Speaker 1: and we laughed and we talked, and at the end
Speaker 1: of it, I still chill up a bit. The women
Speaker 1: gave us a standing ovation. And the women in Indianapolis
Speaker 1: are not easy, and they appreciate because I just know
Speaker 1: who they are, and I respect that women in general
Speaker 1: are not easy. No, you're right, there's this funny offshoot
Speaker 1: of that which is not so glamorous. When I teach
Speaker 1: these executive women, almost always after the meeting they come
Speaker 1: and say, women are not nice to women. So we're
Speaker 1: learning about scarcity, because if you think there's not another job,
Speaker 1: you'll compete in a harsh way. Men have learned how
Speaker 1: to compete at least overtly, more openly with one and
Speaker 1: well maybe openly, but not so nicely. In the last
Speaker 1: eight years. I would say men have treated men ideously well.
Speaker 1: There is a universal meanness running a foot in the world.
Speaker 1: But what I'm interested in is what I learned eventually
Speaker 1: over time, in a ragged sort of way, is that
Speaker 1: generosity is one of the great assets you can take
Speaker 1: with you into business, and I began to finally understand
Speaker 1: it and practice it well. I think it would be
Speaker 1: really great to go back to how we met. Do
Speaker 1: you remember? I remember a wedding and I looked up.
Speaker 1: I was with Annie Denver, the widow of John Denver,
Speaker 1: at this wedding, and she was still alive, wasn't he Yeah,
Speaker 1: at the time, but she was wearing this white picquet
Speaker 1: suit and she's petite, and I looked up in this
Speaker 1: sort of goddess like blind creature came over in the
Speaker 1: same suit, but she made the rest of us look
Speaker 1: like chopped liver. And that was you. Oh gosh, I remember,
Speaker 1: I remember wearing the same suit, and that was a
Speaker 1: very sexy suit. No, no, it wasn't wasn't you, No, no, no,
Speaker 1: it was Terry Mugler. Oh no, the very tiny, ways
Speaker 1: kind of flare jacket, a short skirt. That was the
Speaker 1: michaelis wedding. Yes it was. And actually I hadn't yet
Speaker 1: come into New York and I hadn't quite faced what
Speaker 1: I was about to do in the world. But it
Speaker 1: was the biggest job I've ever had, though later I
Speaker 1: was going to get a bigger one. Well, Charlotte had
Speaker 1: just really had come to New York to see new apartment,
Speaker 1: which was in the Waldorf Towers. She was the appointed
Speaker 1: CEO of Ogilvy May They're one of the largest, if
Speaker 1: not the largest at the time of the fifth largest,
Speaker 1: if largest advertising agency globally, and she had accepted the
Speaker 1: job and was coming to see what she could do
Speaker 1: to furnish an already furnished apartment in the Waldorf Towers
Speaker 1: and how she was going to make it her own.
Speaker 1: You were setting down your roots in New York City,
Speaker 1: Considering I lived in Chicago and I've been around the
Speaker 1: world a bit, I was a novice in New York,
Speaker 1: and I have to say, speaking of us, meaning, I
Speaker 1: had no idea how lonely it would be to first
Speaker 1: of all, not be welcome because I was an outsider
Speaker 1: CEO and a woman, and the men who reported to
Speaker 1: me were shocked to find themselves reporting to a woman,
Speaker 1: and in some ways I didn't have their credentials. But
Speaker 1: later we proved to do quite a good job together.
Speaker 1: But in the meantime I was going home to this
Speaker 1: empty hotel and one day you called, and you said,
Speaker 1: would you like to come out to the Hampton's kind
Speaker 1: of new ground for me? And I said yes, without
Speaker 1: knowing what I was into. I was too tired to
Speaker 1: do it, and I yet I didn't. That was amazingly generous.
Speaker 1: Speaking of generosity, No, but Charlotte was interesting. Here she
Speaker 1: is this, and you know, I am starting a company,
Speaker 1: thinking about advertising and magazines and etcetera, etcetera. And here
Speaker 1: is the top woman in advertising, moving right into our territory.
Speaker 1: And and not only a beautiful woman, a very very
Speaker 1: smart woman. She would fit right in with my gang
Speaker 1: of friends. At the time, I was pretty new divorcee,
Speaker 1: just finding my way in the social life of the
Speaker 1: Hampton's and New York City, and Charlotte was much more
Speaker 1: sophisticated than I was, and much more worldly, even though
Speaker 1: she came from the Midwest, Texas, so I knew I
Speaker 1: in Texas, but you were in Chicago at the time.
Speaker 1: It's true, so um, we just were right at the
Speaker 1: right time to become friends. And you know, Charlotte, it
Speaker 1: really is hard to find friends when you're in your forties, fifties,
Speaker 1: even early sixties. You don't know how you're going to
Speaker 1: find new friends, and you've left behind some because your
Speaker 1: lives have parted. But you imagine having a friend that
Speaker 1: you can walk on the beach with and she will
Speaker 1: tell you what she's trying to do with time Warner,
Speaker 1: and the nerve of you thinking I might just pull
Speaker 1: out of there and gone out, which is actually stopped
Speaker 1: me in fear. And I was explaining to you as
Speaker 1: a rehearsal how different a brand could be if you
Speaker 1: approached it from a different vantage point, which was a
Speaker 1: catechism I was working on for Ogilvie because Ogilvie was
Speaker 1: in terrible shape and dreaming about it wouldn't do it.
Speaker 1: And so Charlotte is re building Ogilvie. I am building
Speaker 1: Martha Stewart living on the media um. And as we
Speaker 1: cemented more and more of our friendship, I asked Charlotte
Speaker 1: to sit on my board. Remember, oh my word, the
Speaker 1: board was so much fun. We were so raucous, and
Speaker 1: there were people there that you grew up. Well, one
Speaker 1: or two that were your allies and important confidance. But
Speaker 1: then you brought on some traditional board members who were
Speaker 1: just kind of horrified to have so many women in
Speaker 1: the room, saying, no, that's not how we do this.
Speaker 1: And no one could teach you how to do the
Speaker 1: work because you were the master of the word. I
Speaker 1: was doing the work they were. They were adding their
Speaker 1: opinions and their suggestions. Uh. And you really tempered a
Speaker 1: lot of that board meeting. I really appreciated what you
Speaker 1: did for us, No, really you did. You helped a lot.
Speaker 1: And I must say also, like I can't speak like
Speaker 1: Charlotte speaks. In fact, I don't know very many people
Speaker 1: who can. She's like the orator with a golden tongue.
Speaker 1: That's what That's how I described it to my friends.
Speaker 1: Who's Charlotte. Oh she's an orator with a golden tongue.
Speaker 1: That's a pretty intimidating. But no, but you do you
Speaker 1: speak with such a vast vocabulary. I think that must
Speaker 1: come from all the reading you do, because you do
Speaker 1: NonStop reading. I do, But I I have this, uh
Speaker 1: believe that were shaped so much and some of these,
Speaker 1: for instance, I had a childhood of some hostility and difficulty.
Speaker 1: I had asthma as a result of my family's chaos,
Speaker 1: and all night, every night, I read through the night,
Speaker 1: and I had the best, the most amazing vocabulary for
Speaker 1: the fifth grade in the world. And from that point on,
Speaker 1: words were really my alt I was skinny, I had
Speaker 1: circles under my eyes, I didn't have much power anywhere,
Speaker 1: and words were in the game. And to this day,
Speaker 1: I think they've stood me as another way to be
Speaker 1: in the world. Well, it's it's just I love. I
Speaker 1: love just calling Charlotte uh, any time, any anywhere, uh,
Speaker 1: and just speaking to her because I get infused with
Speaker 1: maybe one or two new words, and and I would say, well,
Speaker 1: that's a really nice way to put that. I say
Speaker 1: it to myself. But it's that meeting and then the
Speaker 1: fast development of a friendship. And then I introduced you.
Speaker 1: I guess, did you know memory already? I knew her briefly, Mary,
Speaker 1: who is our mutual friend, who is a garden designer
Speaker 1: and kind of at the time when we first met,
Speaker 1: sort of a New York socialite, more sophisticated at that
Speaker 1: than we were, very sophisticated, knowing how to how to
Speaker 1: maneuver in New York, in New York dinner society. She
Speaker 1: knows how to She knew everyone, knew everyone, all the
Speaker 1: friends and people would call her and you and I
Speaker 1: would say okay. But the thing is, the three of
Speaker 1: us had a sort of a life cycle crisis in time.
Speaker 1: We were single, we were women trying to invent a
Speaker 1: new life, and we supported one another. And you know,
Speaker 1: to this day it operates. It's a pretty good thing,
Speaker 1: it is. It's amazing, Charlotte, going back, even before we met,
Speaker 1: how did you know you wanted a career in business.
Speaker 1: Actually the significant thing and that education of mine is
Speaker 1: I chose to major in math and minor in physics
Speaker 1: because the option for me, this is it shows you
Speaker 1: a bit older than you are, was domestic sciences. And
Speaker 1: although you've made that a world class idea, for me,
Speaker 1: it was terrifying because all the men around me had
Speaker 1: all the power and the money and the security. So
Speaker 1: given my background, I did not want to get trapped
Speaker 1: into the kind of domestic life that I experienced in
Speaker 1: my own family. So I chose those things to study
Speaker 1: so that people would think I could think like a man.
Speaker 1: The truth is I thought I could think better, but
Speaker 1: I had to prove that, and so I wanted to things.
Speaker 1: I wanted financial security and personal freedom to make choices,
Speaker 1: both of which you attained. I did, and I think
Speaker 1: it's an illusion to say you do that without a cost.
Speaker 1: There are some costs. I've had more than one marriage.
Speaker 1: Is you pointed out on TV? How many marriages have
Speaker 1: you had, Charlie, I just can't remember. I know of
Speaker 1: at least three. Well, you were a bridesmaid in one
Speaker 1: of them, so you should have helped me out. I
Speaker 1: gave her her last wedding at my house in Maine,
Speaker 1: which was one of the most beautiful weddings we ever had.
Speaker 1: Beautiful in our magazine or magazine. Oh my gosh. Yes,
Speaker 1: it was a beautiful, beautiful wedding, and you were so beautiful.
Speaker 1: The horse and carriage, remember it, it was so great. Well,
Speaker 1: but memory was there and our other blond friends. I
Speaker 1: was the standout in dark. But the thing is, I
Speaker 1: believe that we pay a price to have the exceptional
Speaker 1: lives we have, and it's okay. You make those agreements
Speaker 1: early on. So when I took the job at Ogilvie,
Speaker 1: which was actually past my expectations, because I'm going from
Speaker 1: a smaller agency I owned to a giant one. I
Speaker 1: knew why I was doing it. I wasn't doing it
Speaker 1: to impress New York of the advertising world. I was
Speaker 1: doing it to see if all I had learned in
Speaker 1: a Petrie Dish in Chicago would travel to a world
Speaker 1: class universe and help these people turn their company around.
Speaker 1: To me, that's a mighty task and worth doing a
Speaker 1: lot for them. But when you came to Ogilvie that
Speaker 1: this is interesting to anybody who's interested in in really
Speaker 1: building and rebuilding a business. Ogilvie was fifth largest agency
Speaker 1: in the world. What were the major clients Unilever, Um,
Speaker 1: Procter and gam Well. Broct and Gamble came later because
Speaker 1: they were once competitors, but Ford Motor was a huge company.
Speaker 1: American Express was a long time baby Ponds. There were
Speaker 1: kind of legacy accounts, all of whom were anxious and leaving.
Speaker 1: So it was a volatile time. In my opinion, since
Speaker 1: I know now that I'm a change agent, I'm better
Speaker 1: at that than holding the course. I thought the chaos
Speaker 1: could be helpful to make change, because people of that
Speaker 1: size and that company don't like to make change. You
Speaker 1: came along and inventage your company and had to learn
Speaker 1: how to transfer the assets, the imagination, the entrepreneurship to
Speaker 1: another class. I'm having to guide a giant, nine thousand
Speaker 1: people and fifty offices toward a common goal. And what
Speaker 1: an admirable job you did because you brought in new
Speaker 1: clients and new and new businesses. You brought in IBM.
Speaker 1: How did you how did you reel them in? Well,
Speaker 1: there's one of the fast story that I love. Because
Speaker 1: it was such a pain. I couldn't convince a number
Speaker 1: of key people at Ogilvy about this new idea. A
Speaker 1: group of us formed called brand Stewardship, which was a
Speaker 1: new theology of branding. I used to rehearse it with
Speaker 1: you on the beach. In fact, sometime you were my
Speaker 1: guinea pig, and it was actually a brilliant idea that
Speaker 1: wasn't selling, and so I grabbed the last chance I
Speaker 1: had to talk about it when five clients invited me
Speaker 1: to speak and they had a number of other agencies.
Speaker 1: At the end of my do all presentation about what
Speaker 1: brand stewardship is, the clients stood and applauded. I have
Speaker 1: never had that happen before since with clients, and they
Speaker 1: all went home and called Ogilvie people in their countries
Speaker 1: and said I want some brand stewardship. So that sold
Speaker 1: it through, but that didn't mean it went all over
Speaker 1: the world. And then IBM calls us on the quiet
Speaker 1: and said, do you want to compete for all our business?
Speaker 1: And they had forty five agencies and it was terrifying
Speaker 1: and nobody wanted to do it because we had to
Speaker 1: resign businesses to take it literally in shift to resign,
Speaker 1: Microsoft had version Microsoft Wich was a fledgling company at
Speaker 1: the time, but very hot, I know, but it was hard.
Speaker 1: It's hard to even imagine Microsoft being fledgling to and
Speaker 1: IBM is this great modelith IBM's billings in terms, that's
Speaker 1: the revenue base we call the ad world was off
Speaker 1: the charts. But and also what the work was. Anyway,
Speaker 1: the thing is we won the account against all odds,
Speaker 1: really and brand stewardship was the corner stone of that
Speaker 1: win and that took it around the world. So my
Speaker 1: job was over. So describe what brand stewardship is because
Speaker 1: again you thought big. You thought you thought in in
Speaker 1: new phraseology that no one had even thought of I
Speaker 1: mean brand stewardship. What the heck is that you made
Speaker 1: it up? I mean, this is did this is something
Speaker 1: very important which I have followed for so long. You
Speaker 1: became my best student. You're making me look really good,
Speaker 1: come to think of it. But it's the theology of
Speaker 1: branding that says the motional content and the nature of
Speaker 1: the relationship between the brand and the users more important
Speaker 1: than the product itself, which is heresy for Procter and
Speaker 1: gambling people like that. But nobody has proved that better
Speaker 1: than you have. What's the brand stand for now? In
Speaker 1: your case, it's your own value system and what you
Speaker 1: believed in it long transcended the tabletop setting, right, So no,
Speaker 1: it's an authenticity that that and the relationship with the client,
Speaker 1: with the buyer, the the end user that really makes
Speaker 1: the difference. And you you might have a similar plate
Speaker 1: to someone else who has a similar state, but your authentic,
Speaker 1: your authentic presentation is what gets the customer. Now, the
Speaker 1: depth of experience with one another is just as important
Speaker 1: as it is in a family. So that was the
Speaker 1: idea of brand stewardship. Here's the amusing thing. By the
Speaker 1: time I jumped over to the state department. I was
Speaker 1: dealing with the world's biggest brand, and I wasn't quite
Speaker 1: prepared get into the stage department yet because we haven't
Speaker 1: finished with advertising. Charlotte mentioned that they represented Ford Motors.
Speaker 1: Then Ford Motors buys a European Yeah, a Jaguar, which
Speaker 1: he immediately got. You got immediately got a Jaguar. You know,
Speaker 1: I love this story. I will never have another like it.
Speaker 1: The four other agencies competing all had car experience. We
Speaker 1: knew zip about cars. They're supposed to be a very
Speaker 1: special advertising assignment and nobody understands some except car guys.
Speaker 1: But I was in love with the Jaguar, and I
Speaker 1: was in love with the emotional content of a jaguar
Speaker 1: and its relationship to his owner. Talk about heated. So
Speaker 1: we used that thinking. But honestly, the people that work
Speaker 1: in Ogilvy's made stunning pictures of Earth, the kids singing
Speaker 1: at last my love has come along, or the kid
Speaker 1: the kitten with the jaguar. Uh. It was incredible, and
Speaker 1: I loved seeing you driving around and your you had
Speaker 1: a dark green Jaguar. If I remember, I had two Jaguars,
Speaker 1: and when we were pitching the account, it's still a
Speaker 1: story at Ogilvie that I threw one on the desk
Speaker 1: and the head guy was a dashing Englishman who loved
Speaker 1: his car. And then I said, that's for fun and
Speaker 1: this one and I threw the second set of keys on.
Speaker 1: It's to keep in the garage because everyone knew Jaguars
Speaker 1: broke down and he was fixing that. Well, it was
Speaker 1: incredible that you that you that was the first win. Yes,
Speaker 1: that was amazing. And then and then you got the IBM,
Speaker 1: and then you got others and other and built you
Speaker 1: built American Express so beautifully. Oh that was That's a
Speaker 1: beautiful brand. And I I actually got to do an
Speaker 1: American Express. This is one of the crossovers. I look
Speaker 1: up one day and the MX brief is saying that
Speaker 1: they've hired Martha Stewart to do this spot. And you know,
Speaker 1: by then you're pretty unaffordable. But American Express is budge
Speaker 1: it free, basically, And it wasn't it about in a
Speaker 1: swimming What was They were trying to show that that
Speaker 1: a specific American Express card was the only card you needed,
Speaker 1: so you were going to cut up all your other
Speaker 1: cards And they had me in the bottom of my
Speaker 1: swimming pool in Westford, Connecticut, cutting up tiling the bottom
Speaker 1: of the of my pool, so with all my cut
Speaker 1: up credit cards, and it was Venus on the halfshell.
Speaker 1: You know, they're very beautiful painting, the Italian painting of
Speaker 1: Venus on the clamshell. And so it was a spectacular commercial.
Speaker 1: I missed these times. I think Budweiser can still do
Speaker 1: them where the budgets are big and the intent is
Speaker 1: emotionally stunning. Yes, But so advertising went on and on.
Speaker 1: You really did change the landscape for advertising in the
Speaker 1: United States and elsewhere. But mostly I remember in the
Speaker 1: United States and um and advertising became sexy because we're
Speaker 1: fun again. Well, you were sexy. You were very sexy
Speaker 1: CEO wearing these very beautifully fitted suits. Remember the where
Speaker 1: did you get all your clothes? You got some fabulous
Speaker 1: shop out in Chicago. Well, there was a shop in
Speaker 1: Chicago that dressed me to the tins and nice Ultimo
Speaker 1: doesn't exist anymore, but that woman scoured the earth for
Speaker 1: fitted suits. But you know, I had to be as
Speaker 1: tailored as my clients. The head of Nestley was the
Speaker 1: most beautifully dressed man I'd ever seen. I was thankful
Speaker 1: to have my beautiful suit on, so I couldn't go
Speaker 1: too far and I didn't want to any where. You
Speaker 1: were wearing Armandi, you were wearing fiery Mugler, you were
Speaker 1: wearing you were wearing a lot of really beautiful and
Speaker 1: you know, I was those. I was on the board
Speaker 1: of Federate department stores. And I'll never forget when I
Speaker 1: didn't want to go because I was tired, I didn't
Speaker 1: have time, and the man explained to me, I'd get
Speaker 1: off of my clothes, and I thought, that's it, I'm
Speaker 1: doing it. And then I was very well dressed. You were.
Speaker 1: You were always well dressed and well often made your
Speaker 1: friends look at our stuff better we I did, you did.
Speaker 1: But Martha, do you remember that you and I were
Speaker 1: the only women, and that in many ways on these
Speaker 1: big forums where we were getting awards and the way
Speaker 1: that we're worked more than the now, as someone would
Speaker 1: be invited to present for you, and that would double
Speaker 1: the horsepower. That's how they do. So I want marketing
Speaker 1: something or that you introduced me. Then you'd win something
Speaker 1: and I'd introduce you. And we were in a sea
Speaker 1: of men in Texas. Oh yeah, well, we were. We
Speaker 1: were powerful women as we still are powerful women. But
Speaker 1: it was fun building that perception. Well, I was so
Speaker 1: glad to have you on the stage. So you said
Speaker 1: you were a natural and advertising. Why were you a natural?
Speaker 1: I think I think you know when you have the
Speaker 1: work you need to have if you never know what
Speaker 1: time it is. You were always like that, but not
Speaker 1: many people are. I know people. I've always known many
Speaker 1: people who watched the clock, and I don't regards them
Speaker 1: that you can't be immersed. But what happened to me
Speaker 1: is the love of words and ideas ideas ran the meeting,
Speaker 1: not the people, So hierarchies diminished. I'm a bit of
Speaker 1: a maverick. The creative people are bizarre and my favorites
Speaker 1: and the media orders it. And then there's this act
Speaker 1: of persuasion between you and the client, and ultimately somebody
Speaker 1: has to woo them, and they're not necessarily knowledgeable about
Speaker 1: the outcome. You can't prove any AdWords, so there's always
Speaker 1: a great deal of tension. All that brew was my
Speaker 1: cup of tea. Well, the adveratising you did, and the
Speaker 1: advertising is being done. Now, what do you think? Well,
Speaker 1: the world has shifted so much, and I'm in touch
Speaker 1: with a lot of these executive women I've taught, and
Speaker 1: they're running businesses that are focused on performance can be proven.
Speaker 1: So digital average asking. The reason it's easy to prove
Speaker 1: it is it's not asking you to do anything unusual
Speaker 1: except click this, tip that or sign this paper so
Speaker 1: we can count the heads and it's reassuring the clients.
Speaker 1: But it's not the big thing. If you hand someone
Speaker 1: an idea that's larger than their brand, the consequences will
Speaker 1: change their life in the world. But it's very difficult
Speaker 1: for people to justify or believe that now. But I
Speaker 1: believe that brands and their focus and their nourishment will
Speaker 1: come back full because digital isn't I hope so, because
Speaker 1: the digital cannot be the only way to judge the
Speaker 1: success of a brand just can't be well. Of course,
Speaker 1: sales are, you know, but in the last two years
Speaker 1: with COVID, a lot of things went haywire. That's so true,
Speaker 1: and advertising left the pages of magazines. Well we all
Speaker 1: want now we're cautious in a way that's detrimental. So um,
Speaker 1: if you were focused on proving in your work works,
Speaker 1: you can guarantee it'll be obvious and simple. But I
Speaker 1: mean the whole thing that has catapulted you into more
Speaker 1: experiences and opportunities than you have ever seen is because
Speaker 1: there aren't too many full fledged, beautifully mannered, many textured
Speaker 1: brands out there, and we were thirsty for those experiences.
Speaker 1: So here you are at the top of your game,
Speaker 1: not running only Ogilvy. But then you were also given
Speaker 1: the CEO job at J Walter Thompson. Now how could
Speaker 1: you manage two agencies like that and by the same
Speaker 1: parent company? Right? The thing is I grew up at J.
Speaker 1: Walter Thompson, so they knew me there, and they were
Speaker 1: having a dearth of opportunity, and I agreed to go
Speaker 1: in after I left and retired from Ogilvie and there
Speaker 1: was a fabulous woman running Overvie, Shelly Lazarus. They were
Speaker 1: in good shape, so I agreed to take this interimal role.
Speaker 1: And I have to tell you we did some good.
Speaker 1: I helped them get some business, I helped structure some things,
Speaker 1: but they were changing the CEO. That wasn't a good
Speaker 1: solution for me. I think when you have done all
Speaker 1: these things in a most comprehensive way, it's hard to
Speaker 1: do anything part time. But then you were married, you
Speaker 1: got you had your new husband building art dealer, and
Speaker 1: then you get a call from Washington. I was on
Speaker 1: the board of gulf Stream Aeronautics, and just like your board,
Speaker 1: I tended toward um privately held companies like Jay Crew
Speaker 1: and Martha Stewart Living and gulf Stream, which was owned
Speaker 1: by Forceman Little on the board were the most stunning
Speaker 1: group of men in the planet, all planning to enter politics.
Speaker 1: But Coen Pow was my seat mate. Donald Rumsfeld was
Speaker 1: in the room and not one of those people, um
Speaker 1: Michael over Penskey. Well sometimes they did. Nobody talked anyway.
Speaker 1: Teddy did all the talking, but was a wonderful experience.
Speaker 1: The day that George Bush, George w got in on
Speaker 1: the skin, I would I'm not particularly political at this
Speaker 1: point in my life. I am just really making it
Speaker 1: through the tunnel of evolution out of advertising into marriages.
Speaker 1: Both Cole and Pale and Donald Romsfeld made me a
Speaker 1: job offer in the new administration, which was well for
Speaker 1: for Donald Romsfeld. I think he was I never actually
Speaker 1: understood it, but it was sort of like the number
Speaker 1: one spokesperson or the Pentagon. That's actually not my forte.
Speaker 1: That's a mouthpiece job, and it takes a lot of
Speaker 1: tap dancing. I don't know how to do. And I'm
Speaker 1: not interested in reading speeches that probably were written for you. Yes,
Speaker 1: that was not based Yeah, and pal Gay he didn't
Speaker 1: understand the job either. Is um diplomacy as practiced in
Speaker 1: the stage department had some transfers from the old U
Speaker 1: s I A. And when I read the charter, I thought,
Speaker 1: I've been trending my whole life to do this job.
Speaker 1: It is to build mutual understanding between the United States
Speaker 1: and the rest of the people in the world. Imagine
Speaker 1: an assignment. I was crazy to do that. That fits
Speaker 1: so well with your experience, because that's what you were
Speaker 1: doing always, every single day you were you were fitting
Speaker 1: a product to the people. You were fitting uh, some
Speaker 1: idea to the people. And here you are fitting America
Speaker 1: to the people. It sounded good on paper. It's really
Speaker 1: hard to execute, for one thing, just as an asside
Speaker 1: in case you're all headed this way. Agreeing to be
Speaker 1: a presidential appointee means you have to have top security,
Speaker 1: which means they go through your life in a painful way.
Speaker 1: Lawyers are all over your books and your stocks and
Speaker 1: your finances. In your history. You had to give up
Speaker 1: all your stocks. I had to lay them in a
Speaker 1: safe way. So I went to see Robert Strauss, the
Speaker 1: godfather to all the presidents. I said, Bob, I don't
Speaker 1: want to do this. I thought it sounded awful, and
Speaker 1: he said, honey, you've gone too far. They'll they'll find
Speaker 1: something wrong with you if you step out now. And
Speaker 1: I left. They're not convinced by him. And just like
Speaker 1: I recommend to all the people I've ever worked with,
Speaker 1: find out why you're doing something. What's your motivation for
Speaker 1: this job? I was walking down the street and I realized,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, my brothers served in the service. I
Speaker 1: am just being asked to serve. Of course I'm doing it.
Speaker 1: And from then on I didn't look back. And then
Speaker 1: Charlotte was given the Middle East to uh well, nine
Speaker 1: eleven gave us the Middle and that was on our
Speaker 1: watch changed everything, And that you found it extremely difficult. Well,
Speaker 1: the thing I think is worth mentioning is that in business, Martha,
Speaker 1: you know these things. We know that performance and profits
Speaker 1: and sales as is an agreed goal, and also the
Speaker 1: well being of the people in the harmony of your team,
Speaker 1: and so on. It's all comparatively straightforward, but when you
Speaker 1: go into government. I had lots of dirty tricks played
Speaker 1: on me, and I was shocked because we're in nine eleven.
Speaker 1: We're trying to do the largest possible thing. And what
Speaker 1: happened is if you don't share an ideology with a
Speaker 1: particular group, they hope you fail. It's nothing in between,
Speaker 1: and the degree of the ruthlessness shook me up a little.
Speaker 1: They're used to. I remember when you when you were
Speaker 1: going through that entire period of wondering should I stay
Speaker 1: in public service or not, and you decided finally that
Speaker 1: it was you just had to get out. Once I
Speaker 1: got the briefing on why we were invading Iraq, the
Speaker 1: idea of trying to build mutual understanding while we were
Speaker 1: on the warpath was not even possible. And privately, I
Speaker 1: have to say I didn't believe in the briefing, and
Speaker 1: it's hard you can't say that this is what I
Speaker 1: learned in the State Department. Every newspaper and television show
Speaker 1: wanted me to talk about while I was right, and
Speaker 1: they wanted me to out, and it would have been
Speaker 1: wonderful to do because I didn't like some of the
Speaker 1: people making that decision. I didn't like their decisions, rather
Speaker 1: not them. But the truth is I learned, just like
Speaker 1: Coen pal did you send soldiers into the war, You're
Speaker 1: not going to diminish their purpose in going. So that's
Speaker 1: nothing I could write about. What's been your most amazing
Speaker 1: experience in your life so far? Thank you for so far.
Speaker 1: It's interesting. I was always aware that I would have
Speaker 1: a hard time retiring because i've My idea was George
Speaker 1: Bernard Shaw's quote, I want to be handed a mighty task.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be a sniveling little person on
Speaker 1: the side begging someone to help me, or that's a paraphrase.
Speaker 1: But anyway, I was thrust forward and most of it
Speaker 1: was exceptionally rewarding. And then the government job was over
Speaker 1: the top and very complicated for me, but my learning
Speaker 1: curve was immense. So I think the challenge then becomes
Speaker 1: how do you shift gears from online power? And I
Speaker 1: found it by coming out of I hadn't looked up
Speaker 1: since nine eleven and Washington. I look up and I
Speaker 1: see a professor's written a book Women Don't Ask, And
Speaker 1: Jack Welch wrote a book glorifying men in business to
Speaker 1: the exclusion of any woman who ever lived, which really
Speaker 1: ticked me off. And I like and admire him, but
Speaker 1: I didn't think there was anything operating. So I decided
Speaker 1: that I had better participate in sharing what you and
Speaker 1: I learned in some way that would be very actionable.
Speaker 1: So I wrote a book, which I don't It was
Speaker 1: more of a textbook. I'd Rather Be in Charge by
Speaker 1: Charlotte Bears. That is not the best title, is it
Speaker 1: like that? Well? I wanted to say I'd rather you
Speaker 1: be in charge, but um, and I'll never forget Billy,
Speaker 1: a friend of ours, a publisher, he said, you should
Speaker 1: have said I'd rather be on top A man's interpretation
Speaker 1: of life. Well, this is what I wrote as the
Speaker 1: market blurb on the back. Charlotte Beers is captivating, persuasive, charming, disarming, eloquent, substantive, successful, modest, strategic, capable, determined, convincing.
Speaker 1: Enough said, read this book to learn how to be
Speaker 1: in charge? And uh, and really it does help and
Speaker 1: it has helped many, many, many women be in charge.
Speaker 1: But that's a very beautiful list of things to be
Speaker 1: accused of. Well, those are Those are great and accurate
Speaker 1: adjectives for Charlotte Beers and so. But why only one book?
Speaker 1: I I get very upset when a person writes one book,
Speaker 1: who's a very good, eloquent writer. By the way, So
Speaker 1: I think you have to have to apologie, you have
Speaker 1: to well, I'm I'm actually on another kind of book. Um.
Speaker 1: I have been inspired by some of the new shorter versions,
Speaker 1: not short in totality, but there's a skill to extrapolating
Speaker 1: out of your experiences and the people you've witnessed, pieces
Speaker 1: of life that other people can use. I'm on it now.
Speaker 1: I don't know how to fall so in a short sentence,
Speaker 1: what makes a great leader? There is no way a
Speaker 1: great leader can be heard without developing deliberately a communication skill.
Speaker 1: And some people have odd ones and people adapt to it.
Speaker 1: But by and large, you have to be able to
Speaker 1: explain what you mean. You need to speak with clarity,
Speaker 1: and you cannot walk away from the burden of being persuasive.
Speaker 1: And persuasion takes emotion, and people think business talk is
Speaker 1: clean of emotion, and it's not. The only successful moments
Speaker 1: you have is when you care so much you can't
Speaker 1: stop yourself. But you've learned how to express yourself well,
Speaker 1: how do you define leadership? I would say leadership is
Speaker 1: you're walking out in a path like you and I did,
Speaker 1: with nothing clear, no frontier in front of us, no path,
Speaker 1: and you turn around and people are following you. And
Speaker 1: why do you tell women to keep their own scoreboards? Oh?
Speaker 1: I love this well because all during the time that
Speaker 1: I met the women after the State Department, the ones
Speaker 1: I and I bet even today, we let people tell
Speaker 1: us who we are. It's very comforting. Somebody pats you
Speaker 1: on the head, they tell you you're wonderful. Usually they're
Speaker 1: lying to some extent and you haven't worked out yourself.
Speaker 1: Or they tell you you're blue, but you know you're pink.
Speaker 1: And if you don't know your pink, you're going to
Speaker 1: be at the mercy of that voice. So every day
Speaker 1: and every important meeting, you do the scorekeeping, and then
Speaker 1: people won't throw you off and you ignore what they say.
Speaker 1: I've been ignoring what people have said about me for years.
Speaker 1: What are some of the biggest mistakes women make in
Speaker 1: the business world. I think two things. One is more controversial.
Speaker 1: The other one is bravery is important, and bravery comes
Speaker 1: in the form of communication skills that are not typical
Speaker 1: for women like anger and abruptness and a certain degree
Speaker 1: of firmness, and that strength has to be done in
Speaker 1: a woman's ways. You don't copy the man doing it.
Speaker 1: But I'm pretty sure men wouldn't take me on too
Speaker 1: readily after I had developed my way of expressing myself.
Speaker 1: But my second favorite one is learned to bluff. You
Speaker 1: can't get by without bluffing. The world is complicated, there
Speaker 1: are many forces operating, and men know a lot about bluffing.
Speaker 1: When you play poker, I could play a great poker
Speaker 1: I like. I like card games. I think we should
Speaker 1: take up poker. I think we would learn and we
Speaker 1: could come the next up for the next decade. I
Speaker 1: think we should take up poker and we'll put We
Speaker 1: won't put money on it, We'll put great meals on that.
Speaker 1: I can get some really good teachers. They might be men,
Speaker 1: but I think I know men are good teachers. But
Speaker 1: I think I have a couple of women who are
Speaker 1: also very good poker players. I should say that I
Speaker 1: never had better friends and more support than I did
Speaker 1: with the men I grew up with. I never have
Speaker 1: worked against them. I've tried to make sure the women
Speaker 1: are included. I'd like to see the men take courses
Speaker 1: in leadership. Now it's a lost art. Well, it's been
Speaker 1: so much fun and also very enlightening to speak with
Speaker 1: you on this level today, Charlotte. Not that we don't
Speaker 1: always speak on a pretty high level. We do, but
Speaker 1: it's so nice to share your knowledge and your expertise
Speaker 1: and and uh and your ideas with our audience. And
Speaker 1: I'm sure that they were thrilled to hear you. Well,
Speaker 1: when I'm in the company of someone I love and respect,
Speaker 1: that's the best interview I could imagine. Before we get
Speaker 1: tears in our eyes complimenting one another, we will stay
Speaker 1: top up. But um, but it's been it's been a
Speaker 1: real pleasure to speak to you and and so valuable
Speaker 1: for our audience. Thank you very much,