WEBVTT - Listener Mail: Robot Hell 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:05.280 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:10.799 My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:14.480 your Mind. Listener mail, my name is Robert Lamb and 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:16.560 I'm Joe McCormick. And boy, we've got a good mail 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.279 bag for you today. I've noticed. I think this is 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:22.560 bi pure coincidence that today's batch of mail is just 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:27.720 jammed with Danny's. We've got messages from Dan's, Daniells, Danny's 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:29.400 of all sorts, and as far as I can tell, 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:33.159 they are all different people. So so non Danny's. You've 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:35.279 got to step up your mail game, don't. Don't let 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:37.400 the Danni's have it all right? Are you sure this 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:41.280 isn't a male robot error here? This sounds like exactly 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:43.519 the kind of thing that could mean that there's some 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:47.560 sort of underlying programming problem with our mail bot Carney. 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:52.720 Perhaps he is now associated all listeners, um, all individuals 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:55.840 who ride in with the name Dan Carney. What have 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:59.560 you got to say for yourself? Okay, we are assured 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:02.440 that this is on the level. Okay, good, because today's 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:04.400 episode is also going to deal a lot with the 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:14.440 idea of robot air robot law. Yeah, so jumping into 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:18.280 responses to our pair of episodes on on robot law, 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:21.959 robot punishment, and all the questions that are probably gonna 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:24.520 be popping up in the near future about what happens 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:28.440 when robots do wrong. Let's jump right into this first 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:33.839 message from Danny. Danny says, Hi, there, when thinking about 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:36.440 how to best punish robots if they were ever to 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:39.520 commit crimes, I thought about how people treat the character 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:43.400 of Janet on the NBC show The Good Place. If 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:46.720 You're not familiar, Janet is a near godlike AI that 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:50.040 was created to help run an afterlife for humans. She 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:53.120 looks like a normal person, but constantly reminds our main 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:55.960 characters that she is not a person, but rather just 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:59.200 a program written for the inhabitants of the afterlife to use. 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:01.720 Some of the funniest parts of the show come when 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:04.720 the human characters have to reboot Janet, but she is 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:07.880 programmed to beg for her life to dissuade them from 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:11.040 doing so. The closer they get to her reboot switch, 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:13.680 the more she pleads with them to spare her life, 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:16.760 all while also reminding them that she cannot in fact 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:19.959 feel pain or emotions, as she is just an AI. 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:22.200 It raises the point that I think you touched on. 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:25.480 Would it be cruel to program a robot or AI 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:28.839 to feel pain as punishment? And even if we did 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.640 program it to do so, would it actually be feeling 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:34.680 pain or would we just be happy with the idea 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:37.760 that we think the bad robot is feeling pain? I 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.120 don't know, but I'm certain that The Good Place is 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:43.320 hilarious and Janet is one of the best ais ever created. 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:46.000 Keep up the good work, Danny. Yeah, the the The 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:47.880 Good Place is a terrific show. Did did you ever 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:50.240 watch A Good Place? J Yeah? We uh is it 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:52.520 over now? If it is? We never actually got to 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:54.519 the end of it, but we watched at least part 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:56.200 of it and we liked it. Yeah. I mean, it's 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:58.440 one of those rare shows that they went exactly four 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:02.160 seasons and it's being a pretty pitch perfect in my opinion, 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:04.760 like they got where they wanted to go, they closed 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:09.640 it out, terrific finish and Yeah, Janet both good, Janet Bad, Janet, 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:12.639 various other Janets that appear. They're all terrific, all played 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:19.600 by h Darcy Cardon's American actress and comedian jinks Um. 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:22.680 You can't jinks under a roof. Oh okay, I didn't 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:24.679 know that. Well, that may be a regional rule in 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:29.680 our house. So thinking about whether robots would in fact 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:32.760 be programmed to feel pain, I mean, so as we 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:34.840 talked about in the episode. Obviously, I've got a lot 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:40.200 of questions and skepticism about the underlying justification for punishments 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:42.760 in general. I mean, I guess at bottom, my personal 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:47.000 view of punishments would be partially utilitarian. Like if you 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:50.320 could show that punishing people who harm other people actually 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:53.840 does provide a significant deterrent that prevents them from doing 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:56.400 harmed others in the first place, then I guess in 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:59.200 some cases it would make sense. Uh. Though then you'd 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:02.400 also have to factor in the idea of like individual 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:05.080 rights where like even you know, so like, if you're 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:08.560 to go with a purely utilitarian idea of justice, you 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:11.880 could probably find out that you could achieve overall good 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:15.080 effects by doing like, you know, really unfair things to 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:17.000 like one person in a case, So you'd have to 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:19.760 avoid that kind of thing too. Um. But on the 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:22.720 basic question, I guess I'm just skeptical about how good 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:25.960 the evidence is that there is a strong deterrent effect 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:28.680 across all types of cases, for all types of crimes, 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:31.039 I think it probably would actually vary a lot by 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:34.160 type of crime and situation. For example, you can imagine 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:38.960 a scenario where harsh punishments for harm caused by institutional 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.800 actors like the leaders of corporations or governments, might be 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:47.560 more effective as direct deterrence than harsh punishments of individual 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:49.720 behavior would be. But you know that kind of thing. 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:51.920 But I don't know what the actual evidence is or 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:54.920 how strong it would be. But anyway, so directly addressing robots, 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:59.760 assuming it is true that punishments are sometimes effective as 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:03.000 it aterrent that prevents a significant amount of harm from 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:06.400 happening in the first place. In the case of biological 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:10.320 offenders like us, it's just an a priori assumption that 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:13.400 disincentives have to come in the form of suffering, right 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:15.560 We We sort of alluded to this in the episode 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:19.200 because we inherently desire not to have to I don't know, 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:21.839 pay somebody a huge sum of money when it's found 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.240 that we hurt them or spend time in jail or 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:27.080 something like that. We don't want to face those outcomes 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:30.160 because those outcomes will cause us to suffer and we're 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:35.120 inherently motivated not to suffer. But robots don't have inherent motivations. 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:39.040 They're motivated by whatever their program to be motivated by. 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:43.720 So the equation of deterrence with suffering is a natural 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:47.800 component of it. To whatever extent and in whichever cases 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:51.799 that is actually effective, it's contingent on the offenders being 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:56.400 biological with inherent motivations against suffering. Robots could be deterred 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:59.560 by things that are not really painful to them in 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:03.200 any way that we would understand pain. They're just motivated 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:06.560 by whatever they're told to be motivated by. Yeah, I mean, ultimately, 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:10.280 you could program them to desire pain, to desire suffering, 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:12.840 and you want to share suffering with everyone and to 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:16.960 to make sure that that all beings attain maximum suffering. 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:22.400 So um, yeah, it's again, this was a fascinating topic 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:24.160 to talk about, just because of all the little nooks 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:28.719 and crannies you find yourself in, uh, contemplating both the 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:33.120 human condition and the idea of creating something comparable to 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:36.640 the human condition in machines. But anyway, Danny, I think 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:38.800 you raise good questions and they can connect back to 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:40.680 a lot of the things we were talking about. I 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:44.560 mean you you can imagine even people desiring robots that 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:48.680 simulate pain, like you're talking about, just to give people 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.919 the psychic satisfaction of seeing them punished when they do 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:54.560 wrong or something like that. When really the thing that 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.880 if you're like trying to rationally minimize harm, what would 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:00.240 be important would not be the robot feeling pain, but 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:03.000 them being reprogrammed in a way that so that they 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:05.479 don't behave like that in the future, or other robots 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:14.520 of their same kind don't behave that way in the future. Yeah, anyway, Rob, 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:18.360 do you want to look at this next message from Robin? Yes? Uh? 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:22.360 Robin rides high, Rob, Joe and seth Uh. In They 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.240 Punished the Machine Part two podcast, Rob mentioned a thought 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:28.920 experiment about an AI train system that accidentally killed a 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:32.000 bunch of people by not having oxygen ready for the arrival. 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:35.360 You could not remember where this particular story came from. 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:38.160 This is true. I could not remember. Um, I think 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:41.440 prior I was actually looking it up deering or prior 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:45.080 to the episode, and I was thinking, um, maybe it's 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:47.520 Max teg Mark uh, And I was looking around for it, 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:49.000 and then I did a like a search or two 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:50.520 and I just could not for the life we remember 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:53.480 where I picked this up. Um, but I was thinking nonfiction. 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:57.240 But Robin straightens me out. Quote. The anecdote you were 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.720 remembering is from the Rifters series by Peter Watts. I 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:03.640 believe it was in the first book Starfish. Uh. The 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:06.720 smart gel or head cheese as they call it, was 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:09.280 using a clock to learn when to turn on the 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:12.600 oxygen and the clock broke. There is some delicious AI 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:16.920 Shenanigans speculation in those books, and yes, true enough, this 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:19.600 is exactly what once you pointed out, I'm like, yep, yep, 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.360 I remember that totally, because yeah, the uh, these these 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:25.080 neural nets, these smart gels or head cheese as they 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:27.240 they do, play a major role in the plot, and 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:30.560 there's a lot of consideration about how they how they 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:35.480 could they could make ultimately catastrophic decisions that were that 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:38.400 were from their vantage point, the best way to solve 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:41.640 given problems. This makes so much sense thinking about Peter 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:44.760 Watts uh fiction. A lot of what Peter Watts does 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:49.840 is create genuine horror scenarios where the horror is derived 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:55.400 from a failure of human imagination to comprehend other types 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:58.640 of cognition. And reasoning. So there's a kind of cosmic 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:02.600 horror that comes from the human inability to understand what 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:05.320 it's like to think as an alien, or the human 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:10.040 inability to understand what it's like to think as an AI. Yeah. Yeah, 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:13.439 so so definitely. Yeah, Peter Watts, Uh, look up, look 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.240 up his work if you're interested. Uh, we're big fans. 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:20.760 I read Starfish and a couple of the books and 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:24.840 Rifters that followed that. Um, and then what was Blindside 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:29.480 was the other one? Yeah, very scary alien contact novel. Uh. 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:32.160 And we've read some of his short stories. We talked 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:35.320 about one that deals with religious technology that was very 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:38.760 good and very scary. Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, look him up. 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:41.880 Great some good reads there can get a bit, you know, 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:43.880 for some taste. It may get a little heady and 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:46.720 a little dark. Though. I think Watts would argue that 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:49.960 the futures that he creates are in many ways less 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:52.960 dark than the realities that we find ourselves in today. 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:57.920 Uh so you know, so consider that as you peruse 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:01.520 his work. Yeah, I would say, overall, just really good 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:05.800 cerebral horror sci fi. All right, Robin has more, though, 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:08.320 Robin says, as a side note, I would like to 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:11.199 thank you folks for doing the crossover episode with Seth. 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:13.960 It got me to look up the Spotify playlist for 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:17.160 Record Store Society, which led me to discover the artist 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.880 Do make say think they are fabulous to listen to 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:24.079 as I work, I'm slowly working through that Spotify playlist 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:26.960 and I am rediscovering old and discovering new music that 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:29.840 I enjoy. So thanks to Seth and to you folks 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:34.880 for the musical education. Cheers, Robin, I'll love to hear that. Yeah, absolutely, 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:37.559 Uh yeah, we did a couple of crossovers with with Seth. 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:40.839 We did a Weird House Cinema where where he came 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:42.760 on the show and we talked about weird music videos, 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:45.320 and then we went on to Record Store Society and 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:49.240 talked about just music, cool music videos in general. Uh so, yeah, 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:52.000 hopefully that led a number of people to discover Record 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:55.680 Store Society and uh and even discover some new music 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:58.120 that's awesome totally and if you haven't checked it out yet, 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:00.400 you can look them up there. They're just few weeks 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:02.040 back in our feed now. And of course you can 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:10.360 find Record Store Society wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:14.520 this next message comes from Kenneth. Kenneth says, Hi, Rob 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.600 and Joe, thanks for reading out my last email. Kenneth, 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:20.280 I honestly don't remember which one that was. But but 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:22.600 Kenneth says, though if I had known it would make 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:26.600 it on air, I would have waffled a lot less. Again, 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:29.240 don't know what that's referring to. I loved the recent 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:32.360 series of AI themed episodes, and as you discussed what 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:35.680 might be an appropriate sanction for a wayward robot, it 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:38.800 immediately put me in mind of Red Dwarf, the UK 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:43.520 comedy slash sci fi show. In one episode, Crichton, I 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:45.360 hope I'm saying that right. I've never seen this show. 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:49.800 The crews outdated mechanoid is replaced by Hudson ten the 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:54.200 perfect Machine. Unfortunately, in the millions of years he's spent 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:57.600 waiting to be delivered, his sanity chip has worn out, 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.760 and he goes on a rampage. He's eventually defeated in 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:05.280 an homage to Captain Kirk murdering supercomputers with paradoxes. When 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:10.360 Crechton tells him that Silicon Heaven doesn't exist, Hudson asks, 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:13.240 but where do all the little calculators go to which 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:17.280 Crechton replies, they just die. Hudson then expires in a 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:21.160 kind of does not compute buzzed kind of way. Uh. 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:24.640 This got me thinking that perhaps positive reinforcement is the 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:27.800 way to go with our future robotic companions. If they 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:30.319 are programmed for a given task, they could be given 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:34.680 rewards of energy, upgrades, repairs, etcetera. If they were good 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:38.000 little robots. It's very transactional, but I could imagine them 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:41.200 striving for rewards that will make them more efficient. I 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:46.080 also really enjoyed the episodes about extraterrestrial machine intelligences, but 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:48.840 I did want to defend the humans and drones of 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:52.520 Ian M Banks culture. They aren't just parasites or pets. 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:55.320 They are an essential part of the good works the 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:59.800 culture undertakes. Interfering to improve other civilizations is what it 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:03.520 considers it's moral right to exist, and the humans and 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:06.679 drones are pretty central to that. I like the idea 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:09.480 of ultra intelligent minds using their power to make the 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:13.160 universe a better place, and banks optimistic take on AI 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:16.440 was always one I found very engaging. On a complete 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:20.440 tangent future episodes discussing mega structures such as Niven rings 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:25.600 Banks orbitals or O'Neill cylinders would be absolutely fascinating. Keep 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:28.040 up the great work, Kenneth well. I I have not 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:30.440 seen Red Dwarf either, but I know that's a show 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:35.160 that's much beloved by many science fiction fans. Um On 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:38.480 on the culture note, Um, I don't remember. Did I 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:41.880 argue that they were parasites or pets? I don't know. Um, 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:46.160 I don't. We made an offhand comparison that maybe maybe 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:49.160 we weren't being super serious about well maybe the confusion. 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:51.440 I might have said something meaning or I might have 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:54.400 meant to state that it's kind of like the opposite, 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:59.559 Like the the culture is essentially machines, it's essentially the minds, 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:04.000 but the humans you could almost see them as pets 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:07.080 at this point that you could almost. I wouldn't maybe 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:09.080 I wouldn't call them parasites per se, but they're this 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:11.840 thing that is kept alive by the by the minds 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:13.920 of the culture because that is, you know, part of 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:16.640 what they do, it's part of their their whole existence, 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:21.040 a mission. Um But that anyway, I mean, ultimately, this 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:23.560 is all expressed in the culture books far better than 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:26.360 I can just summarize here. But he he does. He 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:31.960 did indeed have this wonderful optimistic view of of super 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:36.040 intelligent machines, but with plenty of complications that that make 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:39.680 you know, novels of of adventure and discovery worthwhile. So 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:43.479 they may be sort of the culture's reason for existing, 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:47.160 even if they're not really calling the shots within the culture, right, 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:49.320 which is funny because in that way, I think they 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:54.400 could possibly be compared to consciousness within humans. Right, So 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:56.880 your consciousness is the reason to get out of bed 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:59.880 in the morning, like your conscious experience is the reason 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:02.640 to keep living and keep doing anything. But of course, 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:05.360 a lot of the decisions you make, in actions you perform, 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:07.920 while you might have the illusion that they're driven by 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:10.520 conscious processes, you can actually show that at least in 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:12.600 a lot of cases, maybe in every case, maybe not 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:14.760 in every case, you know, can't know for sure, but 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:17.880 at least in a lot of cases, decisions about what 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:21.880 you your body does are happening sort of upstream of consciousness, 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:24.480 and you're just sort of having the illusion that like, yeah, 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:30.000 I did that with my conscious brain. Yeah. It's just 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:32.360 also point out that in the culture books you'll often 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:35.960 have long stretches where it's just one mind talking to 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:39.000 another one AI talking to another AI or multiple AI 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:42.720 is having a conversation about what's happening or what's going 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:45.680 to happen, and those can be quite amusing, in part 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:48.720 because they all have kind of ridiculous drawn out names 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:51.160 for each other, and they all have different personalities and 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.680 different factions. Uh we we actually didn't. So we were 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:57.600 talking in the Machine Lords of Barnard sixty eight episodes 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:02.000 about whether post biological super intelligences would have something that 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:05.240 we would recognize as emotions, and you kind of have 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:07.800 to think if they have personalities, then maybe they would 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:10.760 have something that we recognize as emotions. Do do do 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:12.880 the Uh? I don't know. Do the ais and the 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:16.680 Culture series by Banks have have emotions? Yeah? They they 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:19.200 seem to. I mean it gets kind of complicate. You know. 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:22.680 The machine is capable of of seeming like it has 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:28.600 emotions and realizes there's there's an advantage in portraying emotions 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:31.840 than it is and sometimes it's hard to differentiate that 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:35.280 between genuine emotions or maybe there is no difference. Uh yeah, 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:38.160 And I can't recall this very question may have come 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:40.280 up at some point in the Culture books, and I 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:44.120 just don't remember it, but they seem to have personalities 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:46.960 and emotions. I think some some are a bit more 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:50.360 temperamental and bristly than others, and others are, you know, 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:53.720 a bit eccentric. So so yeah, yeah, I would say so. 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:05.040 All right. The next one comes to us from Joe. 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:08.840 Uh different Joe. Joe writes, I really enjoyed your two 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:13.360 partner on law enforcement applied to autonomous intelligences. There were 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:16.040 some wonderful explorations of how this relates to enforcing the 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:20.439 law against corporate persons. There's another parallel path where we 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:23.399 as a society had to struggle with how to enforce 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:26.240 the law while also reckoning with a growing understanding of 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:29.080 how the perpetrators are not motivated by what we expect, 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.760 not using the same processes to make decisions, and not 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:38.320 as fundamentally culpable as we imagine juvenile law enforcement. I've 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:40.960 been lucky enough to serve in a policy making capacity 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:43.600 as part of a state juvenile justice agency and have 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:48.160 seen firsthand the benefits of this better informed approach. As 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:51.120 everyone who has had a toddler can confirm, children are 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:54.040 capable of tremendous destruction, and as they get older, they 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:56.199 can do and say terrible and harmful things that have 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:59.760 all the appearance of conscious and informed choice. However, as 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:02.440 we've learn more about child brain development, we are moving 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:06.560 towards restorative and corrective models of juvenile justice, rather than 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:10.479 the retributive and punitive systems that have been dominant throughout history. 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:13.639 As you have covered on other episodes, we are beginning 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:17.480 to suspect that human brains, and especially juvenile brains, often 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:21.600 provide illusory surface level rationales for actions that are actually 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:26.240 controlled by obscure, deep seated processes that more closely resemble 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:30.040 machine learning than we care to admit. We've started to 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:33.480 incorporate those lessons into how we handle children who commit 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:37.320 otherwise criminal offenses and have begun reaping the rewards of 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:41.639 healthier and safer communities. I'm optimistic that we will apply 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:45.080 that wisdom to correcting the mistakes of artificial intelligence moving forward, 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:49.200 rather than seeking the primal gratification of knowing some being 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:52.359 has suffered as a consequence of our misfortune. I even 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:54.919 dare to hope that we will someday learn to apply 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:58.080 those lessons to adult human minds, which are often much 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:02.840 less authentically culpable. For a harm they cause. Then we imagine, Joe, Oh, 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:06.440 interesting to hear from somebody who's involved in this field. Yeah, 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:09.439 getting into juvenile criminal justice and all that. That's uh, 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:12.320 I know, that's got to be a really just difficult 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:15.920 area even you know, people motivated with the best of intentions. 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:19.200 Um so, so yeah, it's it's it's good to hear 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:28.000 from somebody who's got first hand experience. Yeah, absolutely, all right, 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:30.199 here's another one for us, Joe, why don't you hit 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:32.200 this one? This one looks like it's a question about 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:35.280 the music. Here's another one from Dan Kind. This one 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:39.199 comes from Danielle. Danielle says, HI was wondering if you 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:41.439 could tell me the name of the music that plays 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:45.280 during the Artifact episodes. Thank you, Danielle. That's it. Well, 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:48.200 I had to check with Seth about this. Uh. This 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:50.720 this was not one of the pieces that that I created. 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:54.000 This was one that Seth got from one of the 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:57.720 one of the deep libraries of stock music that we 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:00.840 have access to here at I heartened me, and so 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:03.679 he dug up the meta. This track is by an 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:08.320 artist named Josh Hyneman. It is called Creeping In, which 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:11.000 we found very funny when he revealed that to us earlier. 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:16.040 And it's from an album called Reality Game Show Too. Uh, 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:18.199 and so you can look that up if you like. 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:20.400 But yeah, it seems like he he sourced it from 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:23.320 a from a library of stock music that's common for 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:27.680 producers to use to create beds underneath the talking in 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:31.560 all of your favorite podcasts. Yeah, it's, you know, a 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:34.680 looping track, you know, so that it doesn't matter how 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:37.200 long the artifact episode goes. Yeah, and some of those 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:39.320 databases can be pretty neat. I remember looking around in 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:41.240 one a while back and noticing that there was some 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:44.480 there was at least like one collection of sounds that 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:47.680 have been created by Alan Howarth, who of course is 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:51.440 known for his musical collaborations with director John Carpenter on 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:55.440 creating helping to create some of the most iconic John 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:59.640 Carpenter movie film scores Chariots of Pumpkins Man. Yeah, great track. 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:05.200 Also for our for our amusement, Seth supplied the keywords 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:08.840 that go along with this track. So it's a slow tempo, 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:15.520 subtle to neutral tension, underscore, drone bed ethereal electronic electronic 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:20.040 soundtrack score, pulsing synth pad pulsing synth bass light, low 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:23.639 fi perk loop, ethereal synth pads, reverse guitar, subtle to 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:26.560 neutral tension. I think it already said that underscore, and 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:28.800 it looks like it's just looping now, which is appropriate 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:36.919 for looping track. All right, here's another one. This one 0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:39.840 comes to us from Jeremy. Hello, Joe and Robert. Your 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:43.200 recent fault episodes about Medusa's head and weird House episodes 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:46.600 about detached heads living on reminded me of the detachable 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:50.520 head of the Queen of the Moon played by Valentina 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:56.080 Cortes opposite Robin Williams. Or is that Cortez or Cortez 0:21:56.640 --> 0:22:02.400 Cortes Cortez. I'm not familiar with this anyway. Quote which 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:05.959 has an independent life in the classic epic The Adventures 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:09.199 of Baron Muchausen. Although it in no way counts as 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:11.960 a B movie, The Adventures of Baron Munchausen may well 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:15.399 contain enough weirdness for a weird House episode. Many thanks 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:19.360 for the hours of intelligent entertainment. Best regards, and Jeremy, Hey, 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:24.640 that's Terry Gilliam. Yeah, Terry Gilliam is always potentially. It's 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:27.160 anything he creates I would say is potentially weird enough 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:29.679 for weird house cinema, no matter how much money he 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:32.880 had to play with in creating it. Uh, where where 0:22:32.880 --> 0:22:35.359 are you on Gilliam? Rob? Because I've got a theory 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:39.520 that nobody is tepid on Terry Gilliam's post Monty Python movies. 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:43.800 People either love them or absolutely hate them. And I 0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:48.479 think Gilliam's aesthetics can be kind of challenging sometimes. But 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:52.160 I love the Terry Gilliam movies. Yeah. I haven't sat 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:54.760 down and watched a Terry Gilliam movie and and quite 0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:58.720